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Lithic
10-11-2009, 05:49 PM
I see a problem with the limit of 2 reincarnations per character. Here are the assumptions I made (feel free to correct them)

1) You can only true reincarnate twice per character. AFter that, its lesser or greater only.

2) Only a true reincarnation allows alignment or (especially) class level changes.

Here's the quote from Tolero that is troubling me:



When you reincarnate, your character will become taller, you'll have a special status icon on your name, and you'll begin your "new life" in Stormreach with extra ability points! You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points. You will also be given access to a "past life" feat, where influences of your previous character class can aid you in your new life/profession.



If both are true, then instead of being a respec, a True Reincarnation is only offering the illusion of protection against future game changes. Once a character reincarnates twice to get their 36 pt builds (and you know a ton of people will be doing this), they are essentially locked into their decisions almost as much as we were locked in a month before they announced the coming of reincarnation. If anything, this makes game changes WORSE than before, as people will have invested 3 times the xp, and 3 times the bound loot into each 36pt character.

Imagine how you would feel if your perfect 36pter was nerfed to oblivion due to something as game-changing as the PrEs or capstones in the future, you would likely be 9 times as angry (as we all know nerd-hate is exponential).

The easy way out is just to allow a character to true reincarnate after they achieve 36pt builds, but without giving them more build points. I don't personally see the problem with a character having all the free past life feats, as they don't do anything, but the game could always just keep the latest 2 aquired. If this is already how it works, then please disregard the above.

Alternatively, there could be a superior reincarnation that works like True, but without the exp hit or build point additions.

SableShadow
10-11-2009, 05:59 PM
The easy way out is just to allow a character to true reincarnate after they achieve 36pt builds, but without giving them more build points. I don't personally see the problem with a character having all the free past life feats, as they don't do anything, but the game could always just keep the latest 2 aquired. If this is already how it works, then please disregard the above.


Excellent suggestion...reminds me of the old "earn enhancements at the cap to replace enhancements" thing before Academy Training.

melkor1702
10-11-2009, 06:31 PM
Or how about getting rid of the 34 and 36 build points?

Nezichiend
10-11-2009, 07:28 PM
Or how about getting rid of the 34 and 36 build points?

Yes please ;)

Vhlad
10-11-2009, 07:59 PM
Or how about getting rid of the 34 and 36 build points?

Even if they got rid of the 34 and 36 build points, we still have a situation where players are limited to 2 true respecs where you can change alignment, race, or class. That limit seems to eliminate the reason to offer real respecs in the first place.

It would be nice to still have the option to make changes to our characters when Turbine changes the rules or the game. i.e. say you have a lawful good wizard that has been true reincarnated twice and then Turbine adds the pale master enhancement line and they make it require non-good alignment. That wizard would be SOL. Or you have a 2x true reincarnated barbarian when Turbine adds the orc race with enhancement lines that make it superior than your current race.

Using past examples, if true reincarnate existed since day 1, I would have true reincarnated:
1) my human pure fighter when turbine introduced 32 point builds and added enhancements (giving just dwarves tactics & racial toughness)
2) my dwarf fighter/2 rogue when they introduced red/purple named immunities [he pumped int to 13 (I had no tomes) to meet the req to take combat expertise for improved trip, back when trip worked on velah, titan, demon queen, etc]
3) that same fighter/2 rogue to a pure fighter again when evasion stopped working with mithral full plate
4) that pure fighter to a lower dex pure fighter when we found out dex 19 wasnt required for greater two weapon fighting (a deviation from the 3.5 SRD)
5, i)
that pure fighter to a barb when barbs got critical rage
(a) that barb to a ranger when rangers got tempest + rams might
(b) that barb [or ranger] to a WF [or human or halfling] when all the other races got racial toughness
5, ii)
(a) that pure fighter to a fighter/2 monk/6 ranger when monks were introduced
(b) that fighter/monk/ranger back to a pure fighter when capstones + kensai were introduced (maybe)

There's probably more changes I'm missing. But a full respec option isnt very good longterm when it has a use cap, unless turbine resets or adds to the counter when they make game changes.

Sure would be nice to feel like we have true security for all the time and grind we put into the characters we love. It's going to be exceptionally painful, for example, to have a 2x reincarnated max favor 18 ranger/1 monk/1 rogue or 18 pally/2 monk if turbine goes and nerfs monk wisdom AC bonus, leaving you with no way to fix or re-optimize your character.

Asketes
10-11-2009, 08:49 PM
If anything, this makes game changes WORSE than before, as people will have invested 3 times the xp, and 3 times the bound loot into each 36pt character.

I

1st reincarnation is twice as much exp

2nd is four times

so it's 6x more exp than the first initial 1.9m exp


but who's counting right?

:(

TechNoFear
10-11-2009, 10:21 PM
You can't please everybody all the time.

I think it would be a very, very limited group that can run to 20, TR, run to 20 again with 2x XP, TR, run to 20 again with 4x XP and then find they have been nerfed so badly that they need to TR again (and nothing else will help).

A player who gets into this situation can obviously easily and quickly level characters and so is in less need of respec mechanisms.

kaelis
10-11-2009, 10:38 PM
1st reincarnation is twice as much exp

2nd is four times

so it's 6x more exp than the first initial 1.9m exp


but who's counting right?

:(

erm, didn't they say in another thread that it was about 5%?..

lanthan
10-11-2009, 11:20 PM
erm, didn't they say in another thread that it was about 5%?..

It is.

Lithic
10-11-2009, 11:44 PM
You can't please everybody all the time.

I think it would be a very, very limited group that can run to 20, TR, run to 20 again with 2x XP, TR, run to 20 again with 4x XP and then find they have been nerfed so badly that they need to TR again (and nothing else will help).

A player who gets into this situation can obviously easily and quickly level characters and so is in less need of respec mechanisms.

The only thread I've seen on the amount of extra xp is 5% more after the first TR. But even if it is 2x, then 4x the exp, that just makes the problem even worse as its that much more grind to redo if turbine does something to screw your character. As for your "people who quickly level are less in need of a respec mechanism", please stop talking with your head hidden in your "back pocket". People who level quickly are the people who care the most if turbine changes things for the worse, and therefore who need it the most. Casuals won't care as much, and more importantly will not have 300 raid completions gathering all the stuff they needed, not to mention the possibility of rare bound items, and soon extremely hard to get bound epic items.

BlackRage
10-12-2009, 05:52 AM
This is true, although the problem is that they need to fix Greater...

The reason we want a RESPEC Turbine is because your 'departed' leader Kate thinks it is cool to invalidate 5-10% of our character builds. We want a way to protect ourselves from this stupidity and the pitiful option you have presented us does NOT fulfill this function.

We need to be able to rebuild characters with different levels as a minimum. This would easily be accomplished by making the current Greater into Lesser (since it does everything anyway, and frankly the minor 28=>32 difference does not warrant the greater increase) and then allow greater to respec levels. Wow - what a difficult ****ing concept.

Keep True if you want a way for power players to stretch their legs, but allow us to fix PROBLEMS _YOU_ HAVE CREATED FFS!

FluffyCalico
10-12-2009, 06:01 AM
I see a bigger issue. The whole benifit or most of it to do full rez is to gain power. Or should be. Sadly almost all of the gaining of power, requires you to switch primary classes with basically screws up almost all your raid gear.

I think they did it this way on purpose. Sure we will let you keep your raid gear, but if you don't change classes you won't gain much, and if you do change classes half or more of your raid gear will be the wrong gear.


Fixing a character should not make you relevel it.
True rezing for power should not cost you both all your tomes and half or more of your raid loot.

BlackRage
10-12-2009, 06:07 AM
You can't please everybody all the time.

No - but if Turbine would stop screwing the pooch, then they would please a whole lot more people a whole heck of a lot more often :rolleyes:

BurningDownTheHouse
10-12-2009, 07:31 AM
Using past examples, if true reincarnate existed since day 1, I would have true reincarnated:
1) my human pure fighter when turbine introduced 32 point builds and added enhancements (giving just dwarves tactics & racial toughness)
2) my dwarf fighter/2 rogue when they introduced red/purple named immunities [he pumped int to 13 (I had no tomes) to meet the req to take combat expertise for improved trip, back when trip worked on velah, titan, demon queen, etc]
3) that same fighter/2 rogue to a pure fighter again when evasion stopped working with mithral full plate
4) that pure fighter to a lower dex pure fighter when we found out dex 19 wasnt required for greater two weapon fighting (a deviation from the 3.5 SRD)
5, i)
that pure fighter to a barb when barbs got critical rage
(a) that barb to a ranger when rangers got tempest + rams might
(b) that barb [or ranger] to a WF [or human or halfling] when all the other races got racial toughness
5, ii)
(a) that pure fighter to a fighter/2 monk/6 ranger when monks were introduced
(b) that fighter/monk/ranger back to a pure fighter when capstones + kensai were introduced (maybe)



Lol, QFT.

And for those who need a simpler self explanatory example: Batman (there are still some running around).

Kintro
10-12-2009, 07:43 AM
Completely agree with the OP having had the exact same thought late last night!

Just let us reincarnate over and over without any additional benefits after the first two. We'd still have to relevel and lose Tomes which I can go with but the fixed limit defeats the whole reason people wanted this feature.

vainangel
10-12-2009, 08:33 AM
I cannot imagine the amount of time it would take to level a twice TR character.
I want to do this with possibly 3 characters all pure class.
If I can figure the math out... ah *!@# $%& it... It is looking alike a year or more for that the rate I play... good enough for me!

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 09:25 AM
I think people (well a few Powergamers) will start buiding for double TR. Which means when their double TR gets the nerf bat it will really hurt. Plus as others have laid out, you could use one TR to fix your mistakes, a second to deal with a nerf bat...and then if you made a mistake or get renerfed you are stuck.

I see no reason not to allow unlimited TRs...with the understanding that the maximum point bonus is +4 and the max XP progression cost is whatever the TR #2 cost is.

I could even see limitting the TR past life feats to the last 2 lives if that simplified coding.

404error
10-12-2009, 09:32 AM
There are no actual caps to TR other than a 7 day timer and the benefits and penalty's at your second one.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 09:34 AM
There are no actual caps to TR other than a 7 day timer and the benefits and penalty's at your second one.

Thanks 404, great news :)

Um...and would you mind popping over to the Lesser thread to get a QA question there? :D

vainangel
10-12-2009, 09:41 AM
I could even see limitting the TR past life feats to the last 2 lives if that simplified coding.


I like this.

404error
10-12-2009, 10:07 AM
Thanks 404, great news :)

Um...and would you mind popping over to the Lesser thread to get a QA question there? :D

Link? Don't have time for 5 page this morning.

GreenGurgler
10-12-2009, 10:22 AM
This isn't really a valid complaint anymore. Turbine swings the nerf bat a lot less now-a-days since this 3 year long beta is just about done and ready for launch. All those other changes were just done in beta to balance the classes before release.

After its launch, they wont change anything anymore ;)





(in case you missed it, sarcasm ;) )

Gol
10-12-2009, 10:32 AM
The reason we want a RESPEC Turbine is because your 'departed' leader Kate thinks it is cool to invalidate 5-10% of our character builds. We want a way to protect ourselves from this stupidity and the pitiful option you have presented us does NOT fulfill this function.

We need to be able to rebuild characters with different levels as a minimum. ...(snip)... Wow - what a difficult ****ing concept. ...(snip)... allow us to fix PROBLEMS _YOU_ HAVE CREATED FFS!As I said on the original thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2470516#post2470516), I completely agree. Big T screwed the pooch on this one.


There are no actual caps to TR other than a 7 day timer and the benefits and penalty's at your second one.Gee, thanks, that's a great consolation to those of us that take > 6 months to level a character.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-12-2009, 11:04 AM
Link? Don't have time for 5 page this morning.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2479013&postcount=95

Lithic
10-12-2009, 12:59 PM
There are no actual caps to TR other than a 7 day timer and the benefits and penalty's at your second one.

So you can TR a third, fourth, 8th time? Excellent, I was hoping the limit was just on the gaining of build points.

Out of curiousity, can a character theoretically gain every Past life: class feat by undergoing TR 11 times?

Solmage
10-12-2009, 11:33 PM
Or how about getting rid of the 34 and 36 build points?

I'd love it if they got rid of the 36, I think that's just excessive. We don't need THAT much of a time sink.. do we? I mean.. you guys ARE going to deliver (high level) content more often than once each 1 year and a half right? :p

I can live with 34. I won't shed any tears over it's demise either, although I do see it as a valid step if they really can't give us back our tomes for technical reasons. Still I'd rather have my tomes back than get 34 pts.

QuantumFX
10-13-2009, 02:07 AM
There are no actual caps to TR other than a 7 day timer and the benefits and penalty's at your second one.

Are characters that have previously undergone a True Reincarnation limited to True Reincarnations in the future?

For example, A player has a character that they’ve ran up to level 20 twice and it’s now a 36 point build. The player having both a drinking problem and ADHD. He goes and levels his 19 Sorc to 20 Sorc and put’s his last level up into Wisdom. Can he do a Lesser Reincarnate to fix this or does he need to do another True Reincarnate?


I'd love it if they got rid of the 36, I think that's just excessive. We don't need THAT much of a time sink.. do we? I mean.. you guys ARE going to deliver (high level) content more often than once each 1 year and a half right? :p

I can live with 34. I won't shed any tears over it's demise either, although I do see it as a valid step if they really can't give us back our tomes for technical reasons. Still I'd rather have my tomes back than get 34 pts.

I thought the extra build points was a weird choice as well. I would have preferred extra Action points instead.

BlackRage
10-13-2009, 05:15 AM
You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points.


There are no actual caps to TR other than a 7 day timer and the benefits and penalty's at your second one.


And as was answered, you can currently only true resurrect twice.

I am pretty sure after reading these that quite frankly nothing has been answered. Cut the ******** and lay it out clearly:
Can we or can we not True Rein repeatedly?


While you are at it, give us an option to fix characters that YOU broke/nerfed.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 06:12 AM
I am pretty sure after reading these that quite frankly nothing has been answered. Cut the ******** and lay it out clearly:
Can we or can we not True Rein repeatedly?


While you are at it, give us an option to fix characters that YOU broke/nerfed.

Two quotes from forum moderators who read briefing notes.

One quote from the head of QA.

I'll bet 404 has this one right...

Borror0
10-13-2009, 07:04 AM
One quote from the head of QA.
He is not the head of QA but rather is in charge of player-submitted bugs. Whoever is replacing Silthe is the head of QA.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 07:56 AM
He is not the head of QA but rather is in charge of player-submitted bugs. Whoever is replacing Silthe is the head of QA.

OOOOO...I thought he/she was the new Silthe. I still have my money on 404 being right.

And I like 404 better than New Silthe since New Silthe never visits us :D

Borror0
10-13-2009, 08:17 AM
I thought he/she was the new Silthe.
If it can make you feel better, 404 replaces Silthe on the forums!

404error
10-13-2009, 04:05 PM
I think you hurt Silthe's feelings, but no I'm not the head of QA, I am what borror0 said. Doing that job requires me to have all my hands in all the kettles so I have an idea of what everything does and where everything is at.

So with that said you should be able to do a true once every 7 days with a 36 point cap and 4x XP AND if you do LR at 34/36 you do not lose build.

Borror0
10-13-2009, 04:10 PM
I am what borror0 said.
It has suddenly become very tempting to edit my previous post.

404error
10-13-2009, 04:32 PM
It has suddenly become very tempting to edit my previous post.

lol

Riggs
10-13-2009, 05:01 PM
1st reincarnation is twice as much exp

2nd is four times

so it's 6x more exp than the first initial 1.9m exp


but who's counting right?

:(

2x? 4x?

So to get from level 17-20 after reinc once...you need 1.1 million xp? and 2.2 million the second time?

I want a LOT more than 2-4 build points for having to level through 6 million xp. Or else high level quest need to start giving high level xp - not LESS xp than lower level quests.

Seriously.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 05:20 PM
1st reincarnation is twice as much exp

2nd is four times

so it's 6x more exp than the first initial 1.9m exp


but who's counting right?

:(


I think you hurt Silthe's feelings, but no I'm not the head of QA, I am what borror0 said. Doing that job requires me to have all my hands in all the kettles so I have an idea of what everything does and where everything is at.

So with that said you should be able to do a true once every 7 days with a 36 point cap and 4x XP AND if you do LR at 34/36 you do not lose build.

Wait....I'm confused...

A couple testers on Lama, such as this one:


I don't remember how many xp we need to lv2, is that 5000?
If it is right, then true re cost us extra 5% xp to level up.

I ture re-ed one in lama, it seems XXX/5250 to level 2.

Correct me if I am wrong, ty.

reported that post first TR it was only costing them 5% more XP... Can we get confirmation that 5% is incorrect (or the higher level are evil in XP and it isn't a straight progression) and that it really is 2x XP to level a the second time? If so that makes TR a no starter for me... :(

So 404, Tolero, Tarrent...someone....can you please get a breakdown of the XP/level for 1st TR and 2nd TR?

Lithic
10-13-2009, 06:01 PM
Wait....I'm confused...

A couple testers on Lama, such as this one:



reported that post first TR it was only costing them 5% more XP... Can we get confirmation that 5% is incorrect (or the higher level are evil in XP and it isn't a straight progression) and that it really is 2x XP to level a the second time? If so that makes TR a no starter for me... :(

So 404, Tolero, Tarrent...someone....can you please get a breakdown of the XP/level for 1st TR and 2nd TR?

The 5% more was probably a placeholder to allow the possibility of a double reincarnated llama. 2x and 4x are on the high side of what I was expecting, but not by much.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 07:12 PM
The 5% more was probably a placeholder to allow the possibility of a double reincarnated llama. 2x and 4x are on the high side of what I was expecting, but not by much.

Yup, or its not a straight line progression (ie - L1-10 are easy, 11-20 suck). Here's the answer cross posted from another thread...


True Reincarnation is NOT intended as a respec feature. It's merely an option for those who are attracted to the notion of further progressing their characters and not intended for everyone.

I wouldn't recommend using this feature solely to correct a bad multi-class decision.


You'll need 1.652236842 times the XP to be precise.

TechNoFear
10-13-2009, 10:02 PM
As for your "people who quickly level are less in need of a respec mechanism", please stop talking with your head hidden in your "back pocket".

Try to think it all the way to a logical conclusion.

You are trying to use a feature for a purpose that it was not intended.


People who level quickly are the people who care the most if turbine changes things for the worse, and therefore who need it the most.

'Care the most' about a character has nothing to do with leveling speed.

People who level quickly are more capable of fixing characters effected by nerfs/blances (as opposed to people who take months to level and have no spare ingredients/plat/tomes etc).


Casuals won't care as much,

Why exactly?

This is where you seem unable to empathise/understand anyone else's perspective and are limited by your own bias, to argue only for what benefits you directly.


and more importantly will not have 300 raid completions gathering all the stuff they needed, not to mention the possibility of rare bound items, and soon extremely hard to get bound epic items.

This is not a valid argument because its premise is incorrect.

No gear is lost, inc. epic, raid and bound loot.
Raids will reset so you can get new tomes (if you don't already have a supply after your 300 raids).

Mellkor
10-14-2009, 07:09 AM
I wonder if true reincarnated characters will have a problem getting XP just to get to cap...

you get a penalty for repeating quests, so would the number of times you would need to rerun quests actually prevent you from getting to cap with a true riencarnated character?!!??!?!?!

-JR