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Shade
10-10-2009, 06:19 PM
So obviously allot of work was done on this module, lots of new features.. lots of dev work.. Great.

But almost no progress on the many serious bugs introduced in mod9? Or even mention of them in known issues?

Seems like at least 1 dev could work on bugs..

I mean all of this still bugged:
Barbarian Frenzy berserker - still about 6 bugs. No supreme cleave, no increased burst dmg, no fixed icons.
Sorcerer capstone - broke stil.
Lots of spells still buggy.
Ftr/Paladin +200% hate defender feature still not working? (not verified but not in relase notes)
Tower of Despair Set bonuses still very poor due to stacking issues. Only a single set was fixed - knight of the chalice.

Asketes
10-10-2009, 06:27 PM
:) -> update 1

:( -> bugs

Nyvn
10-10-2009, 06:31 PM
I doubt those bugs are high on the to do list =/ Though regular updates are definitely good. I suppose if they keep or increase the player base they'll be making enough money for more devs.

Angelus_dead
10-10-2009, 06:54 PM
Disjunction!

Angelus_dead
10-10-2009, 06:55 PM
I doubt those bugs are high on the to do list
There is NO way that "Past Life Feats" should've had priority over broken capstones, bad capstones, missing specialties, broken spells, missing spells, imbalanced quests, or ten other things I could name.

Xaearth
10-10-2009, 07:00 PM
There is NO way that "Past Life Feats" should've had priority over broken capstones, bad capstones, missing specialties, broken spells, missing spells, imbalanced quests, or ten other things I could name.

So... you'd rather they stop adding any new content and have solely bug fixes until the game is perfect? :rolleyes:
You do remember that Mod 10 (now Update 1) was nearing the end of development when DDO:EU launched?

Yes, they could've put all of this off and devoted everything to fixing the above bugs...
But that would've been a ****-poor use of resources considering the progress they supposedly already had on what we're now seeing.

Angelus_dead
10-10-2009, 07:02 PM
So... you'd rather they stop adding any new content and have solely bug fixes until the game is perfect?
What part of "missing specialties" do you not understand?


Yes, they could've put all of this off and devoted everything to fixing the above bugs...
But that would've been a ****-poor use of resources considering the progress they supposedly already had on what we're now seeing.
Wrong. Almost anything would've been better than Past Life Feats.

Nyvn
10-10-2009, 07:03 PM
There is NO way that "Past Life Feats" should've had priority over broken capstones, bad capstones, missing specialties, broken spells, missing spells, imbalanced quests, or ten other things I could name.

They could if they put respec, which those are part of, over bugs. Look at how many threads/posts there have been about respec vs all the others combined. Plus who knows how many times it was in exit surveys? With missing specialties we don't know that this is all that's coming. The last Lamannia they didn't introduce everything at once. There very well could be more coming next week.

Xaearth
10-10-2009, 07:04 PM
What part of "missing specialties" do you not understand?

You're also assuming this preview of Update 1 is the only preview we're going to get. :rolleyes:

Angelus_dead
10-10-2009, 07:05 PM
They could if they put respec, which those are part of, over bugs.
False. There was no reason at all that 34/36 point builds and Past Life feats had to be included in respec. Indeed, their addition is complicating and delaying the arrival of an important feature.


You're also assuming this preview of Update 1 is the only preview we're going to get.
No, I absolutely am not.

Asketes
10-10-2009, 07:22 PM
i wonder if the extra glancing blows from the WF enhancement while rage will be fixed :(

Nyvn
10-10-2009, 07:34 PM
True Reincarnation is the only way to respec classes. If there was another way to change classes without the extra stat points and the Past Life Feats...

I'm hoping that the missing PRE's come in the next few weeks. I'd like those much more than Respec.

MagicianBlade
10-11-2009, 11:54 PM
There is NO way that "Past Life Feats" should've had priority over broken capstones, bad capstones, missing specialties, broken spells, missing spells, imbalanced quests, or ten other things I could name.

It seems like what we have here are basically two different groups working on the game, in sort of the same direction -- a group of people working on content, and a group of people working on new code. I don't know how it's been before, but since I've been here (since Beta for mod 9), the dev model looks a bit like ... *code upgrade* *bug fix* *new content* *code upgrade* ... so presumably there's at least 2 or 3 different groups working on different things.. and we'll see them eventually.

The known issues list does seem to be spectacularly long for a game that is available to the public, though.

Arnya
10-12-2009, 12:45 AM
It seems like what we have here are basically two different groups working on the game, in sort of the same direction -- a group of people working on content, and a group of people working on new code. I don't know how it's been before, but since I've been here (since Beta for mod 9), the dev model looks a bit like ... *code upgrade* *bug fix* *new content* *code upgrade* ... so presumably there's at least 2 or 3 different groups working on different things.. and we'll see them eventually.

The known issues list does seem to be spectacularly long for a game that is available to the public, though.

Heh, you said groups.

You mean one guy's doing content and the other is working on the code?

When either one gets finished, he/she may get time to look at bugs.

...Or get given the next mod's worth of stuff to throw up on Llama so we can let em know what bugs to ignore when they plan the next update?

Sirea
10-12-2009, 12:50 AM
There is NO way that "Past Life Feats" should've had priority over broken capstones, bad capstones, missing specialties, broken spells, missing spells, imbalanced quests, or ten other things I could name.

Agreed. They should make sure stuff works before it's released on the live servers. Many, MANY of these issues were reported on Lamannia but apparently weren't worth it enough to fix. But they made sure the DDO Store worked properly before release, I guess we can tell where their priorities lie, huh? :rolleyes:

Mhykke
10-12-2009, 12:58 AM
I think fixing disjunction in the abbot should be a top priority. The devs finally get this raid close to fixed, only to have a bug in there that could potentially destroy items permanently....Still a reason to stay out of this raid......Ridiculous.

smatt
10-12-2009, 01:30 AM
I would like to think that sometime around next week another bug-fix downtime comes along. :D

The new Mod is likely a bit away yet... Probably a couple 3 Lama builds away... They're just trying to dig up major bugs in this build over there for update #1.... Hopefully, 404Error's team is working hard on the bugs end..... :p


Prediction... Update #1 early Decenmber.... And at least 1, if not 2 more bug fix patches between now and then on live servers.......

Xaearth
10-12-2009, 05:59 AM
I would like to think that sometime around next week another bug-fix downtime comes along. :D

The new Mod is likely a bit away yet... Probably a couple 3 Lama builds away... They're just trying to dig up major bugs in this build over there for update #1.... Hopefully, 404Error's team is working hard on the bugs end..... :p


Prediction... Update #1 early Decenmber.... And at least 1, if not 2 more bug fix patches between now and then on live servers.......

Agreed. I'm guessing if they do have new PrEs set to go live with Update 1, they want to address the issues with the ToD sets first (especially considering that, in adding the PrEs, they'll be adding the tier 3 PrE bonus to the sets as well) so people can test both on Lama.

Shandi
10-12-2009, 06:47 AM
I think we're naive to think that there are not going to be anymore bug patches before this goes live however who knows :)

Another bug I've mentioned before and several others have, also bug reported but asking if it's been fixed...

Frost Lance is not being heightened on the live servers - did they fix this on the beta server? I'd check myself but my sorcerer was a victim of the greater reincarnation bug hehe so he's level 1

If it's not being heightened is this by design? It really is annoying having a DC of 27 on a damaging spell when every other damage spell in the game is able to be heightened...

Monkey_Archer
10-12-2009, 07:16 AM
Yes... barb issues, caster issues, monk issues, broken this, fix that....
The list is endless and might even take an entire update just for bugs alone...

What is missing is a dev response saying:
"we are aware of those issues and are working on fixing them by update #??"
or
"we are aware of those issues and have no intention of ever doing anything about them" :rolleyes:

nnniiiggggaaarachi
10-12-2009, 07:48 AM
How about favored souls actually getting their caster level applied to spell penetration when they cast implosion?

eonfreon
10-12-2009, 08:37 AM
Well, they did get rid of one major bug that we players were up in arms over: they fixed Virtuoso's Enthralling song from working on Red named :rolleyes:.

Fixing Disjunction is pretty low on the list compared to fixing that Bard Song. The Bard Song bug was allowing Players to get loot easier. The Disjunction spell bug makes it so Players lose loot.

Fixing Disjunction is apparently "complicated" but fixing Virtuoso's Song was done in what 1, 2 weeks tops?

Beherit_Baphomar
10-12-2009, 09:13 AM
I think we're naive to think that there are not going to be anymore bug patches before this goes live however who knows :)


I think you're missing the OP and others point.

What they are saying is we are now previewing new stuff on lammania, the Devs are bringing about respec yet we still can't cleave. We still have no word on sorc capstone, Abbot raid and others.

We may get a bug patch next week but some of these bug really shouldve been looked at long before now. Remember some were reported months before DDOEU went live.

Beherit_Baphomar
10-12-2009, 09:16 AM
Well, they did get rid of one major bug that we players were up in arms over: they fixed Virtuoso's Enthralling song from working on Red named :rolleyes:.

Fixing Disjunction is pretty low on the list compared to fixing that Bard Song. The Bard Song bug was allowing Players to get loot easier. The Disjunction spell bug makes it so Players lose loot.

Fixing Disjunction is apparently "complicated" but fixing Virtuoso's Song was done in what 1, 2 weeks tops?

Viscious handwraps was an easy fix. Other handwraps can wait.

Destruction working on rednames was an easy fix, disjunction can wait.

Funny how these things go huh?

404error
10-12-2009, 09:27 AM
Bugs are typically fixed on patches between updates and the devs try to fix as many as they can while still working on new content but not everything will be fixed.

Syrin
10-12-2009, 10:14 AM
Bugs are typically fixed on patches between updates and the devs try to fix as many as they can while still working on new content but not everything will be fixed.

How about at least acknowledging a few of the ones mentioned? They aren't showing up in the "known issues" patch after patch. We (the community) aren't even sure if you know or care.

Monkey_Archer
10-12-2009, 10:40 AM
Bugs are typically fixed on patches between updates and the devs try to fix as many as they can while still working on new content but not everything will be fixed.

hmm... if certain severely broken things (karmic strike, chain lightning, disjunction, etc..) arent on the list of things to be fixed, perhaps they should just be removed from the game instead?

DragonKiller
10-12-2009, 11:01 AM
Bugs are typically fixed on patches between updates and the devs try to fix as many as they can while still working on new content but not everything will be fixed.

So is the Know Bug list count going to go up, or down after this update?

If I were betting, I'd place big money on up. This is really unacceptable. I do not understand how it is beneficial to Turbine, DDO, and it's customers to continue to push out updates when they have a number of major bugs, and the previous bugs are not being fixed.

Someone (not the developers, but Turbine Management) really needs to pull it's head out of it's [insert filtered word here] and get it's priorities straight. FIX BUGS NOW!!!! The longer these things go unfixed the harder it is going to be for a developer to go back in fix them, and not break something else.

Tolero
10-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Just to clarify - as this comes up periodically but some of you are new - the "known issues list" is not a list of every bug in the game that we know about. It's a list of ones that we know about but don't need any further reports on.

In some cases you won't see a bug in the list because we WANT you to send in more bug reports because we're having a difficult time consistently reproducing a bug on our side. Even really "obvious" ones, where it seems like "everyone" is reporting it doesn't always mean we have good repro steps. Just because you report a bug doesn't mean we have the answer for how to best fix it yet, so getting more details in bug reports helps us to identify patterns. If we notice that reports are always coming in from level 2 dwarven rogue / fighters who have haste cast on them, it's much more helpful (and yes, sometimes bugs can be really that obscure and specific).

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 11:15 AM
Just to clarify - as this comes up periodically but some of you are new - the "known issues list" is not a list of every bug in the game that we know about. It's a list of ones that we know about but don't need any further reports on.

In some cases you won't see a bug in the list because we WANT you to send in more bug reports because we're having a difficult time consistently reproducing a bug on our side. Even really "obvious" ones, where it seems like "everyone" is reporting it doesn't always mean we have good repro steps. Just because you report a bug doesn't mean we have the answer for how to best fix it yet, so getting more details in bug reports helps us to identify patterns. If we notice that reports are always coming in from level 2 dwarven rogue / fighters who have haste cast on them, it's much more helpful (and yes, sometimes bugs can be really that obscure and specific).
Look at Shade's list and tell me that you're having trouble duplicating any of the entries...

Turial
10-12-2009, 11:20 AM
Bugs are typically fixed on patches between updates and the devs try to fix as many as they can while still working on new content but not everything will be fixed.

404, could you give us a little insight into how bugs are handled? Sort of a flow diagram that shows the priority that maybe assigned to bugs or how they finally reach the known issues list or where most bugs sit for seemingly months at a time while each side waits for the other to provide more info.

Maybe we need a bugs in investigation list. Bugs we have reported, exclude exploits for obvious reasons, that you guys need more information on. Heck maybe even let us see the reports that have been submitted on some of these, removing peoples names and information. One of us that sees the bug may finally be able to piece that last bit of information you guys need to figure out the bug.

jakeelala
10-12-2009, 01:34 PM
404, could you give us a little insight into how bugs are handled? Sort of a flow diagram that shows the priority that maybe assigned to bugs or how they finally reach the known issues list or where most bugs sit for seemingly months at a time while each side waits for the other to provide more info.

Maybe we need a bugs in investigation list. Bugs we have reported, exclude exploits for obvious reasons, that you guys need more information on. Heck maybe even let us see the reports that have been submitted on some of these, removing peoples names and information. One of us that sees the bug may finally be able to piece that last bit of information you guys need to figure out the bug.

yeah great idea. they should spend time making you flowcharts instead of fixing bugs and making new content.

i'd rather just bug fix and move on.

I do think they could do a better job at putting information regarding bugs out there though. Whether they start Codogs dog house back up, or just add more info to the known bugs list: (in process, not looked at, back burner, whatever), things would be a be a lot better.

I'm sure bugs don't last for months and years in WoW, at least not as many high profile ones.

Sirea
10-12-2009, 01:43 PM
yeah great idea. they should spend time making you flowcharts instead of fixing bugs and making new content.

Nah, instead of fixing bugs they're going and putting black barriers in Titan so those evil solo'ers can't go in and own the quest, or coding little colored skulls that tell us we're zerging too much, or catering to the FtPers by handing them everything we had to earn :rolleyes:

Arkat
10-12-2009, 02:42 PM
Look at Shade's list and tell me that you're having trouble duplicating any of the entries...

Word.

KoboldKiller
10-12-2009, 02:45 PM
I did hear they had a call into this guy.

http://waynethomasyorke.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/orkinblurfinaln.jpg

jakeelala
10-12-2009, 02:54 PM
Nah, instead of fixing bugs they're going and putting black barriers in Titan so those evil solo'ers can't go in and own the quest, or coding little colored skulls that tell us we're zerging too much, or catering to the FtPers by handing them everything we had to earn :rolleyes:

accepting Titan I don't mind any of this.

dungeon alert makes things different, which is good, shakes things up a bit. it may not last. we'll see.

FtP'ers are the source of a lot of new revenue for Turbine which means more stuff for us. I wouldn't complain so much about them.

SimVerg
10-12-2009, 02:58 PM
Look at Shade's list and tell me that you're having trouble duplicating any of the entries...

They need us to keep filling in bug reports about how Supreme Cleave does not work in a box, it does not work on a fox. It does not work if you use your mouse, it does not work in the Titan's house. It does not work here or there, it does not work anywhere.

edit: Actually, I'm going to go bug report that.

Junts
10-12-2009, 03:02 PM
They need us to keep filling in bug reports about how Supreme Cleave does not work in a box, it does not work on a fox. It does not work if you use your mouse, it does not work in the Titan's house. It does not work here or there, it does not work anywhere.

edit: Actually, I'm going to go bug report that.


hahaha

Strakeln
10-12-2009, 03:34 PM
Supreme Cleave and what it can do for you (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206969)

Geriant
10-13-2009, 10:44 AM
Just to clarify - as this comes up periodically but some of you are new - the "known issues list" is not a list of every bug in the game that we know about. It's a list of ones that we know about but don't need any further reports on.

In some cases you won't see a bug in the list because we WANT you to send in more bug reports because we're having a difficult time consistently reproducing a bug on our side. Even really "obvious" ones, where it seems like "everyone" is reporting it doesn't always mean we have good repro steps. Just because you report a bug doesn't mean we have the answer for how to best fix it yet, so getting more details in bug reports helps us to identify patterns. If we notice that reports are always coming in from level 2 dwarven rogue / fighters who have haste cast on them, it's much more helpful (and yes, sometimes bugs can be really that obscure and specific).


Perhaps divide up the known issues list into categories. One section for bugs you don't need more reports on and one for the bugs that you need more reports on. At the very least you'd let us know you're aware of them and also would probably prompt people to attempt to reproduce the bug so the fix can be nailed down.

~G

barecm
10-13-2009, 10:59 AM
Just to clarify - as this comes up periodically but some of you are new - the "known issues list" is not a list of every bug in the game that we know about. It's a list of ones that we know about but don't need any further reports on.

In some cases you won't see a bug in the list because we WANT you to send in more bug reports because we're having a difficult time consistently reproducing a bug on our side. Even really "obvious" ones, where it seems like "everyone" is reporting it doesn't always mean we have good repro steps. Just because you report a bug doesn't mean we have the answer for how to best fix it yet, so getting more details in bug reports helps us to identify patterns. If we notice that reports are always coming in from level 2 dwarven rogue / fighters who have haste cast on them, it's much more helpful (and yes, sometimes bugs can be really that obscure and specific).


And sometimes things just disappear off the known issue list... such as ranged combat not working properly (still). Shots not being recorded even if on flat ground. The broken animation causing a lag between shots fired and shots hitting. And no, I am not talking about the debate on the ranged dps since that isn't a bug, just poor design. This has been around since mod 3!

Why can't there be a new content team and a fix all the broken stuff team? Don't act like things don't get fixed, they do. However, game exploits are always instant fixes while game playability issues are low on the list. Having a spell permanently break your gear is a big problem. It should be fixed immediately or take the spell out of the game until you can figure it out. Not having the newest raid loot functioning properly is not only a big issue for your player base, but it is an embarassment in general. Not even acknowledging the issue is a bigger mistake. Claiming you need more input? Really? It either stacks or it doesn't stack. Check it out yourselves and stop relying on your player base to provide free QA.

404error
10-13-2009, 11:09 AM
There should be a fix for disjunction for the next update.

I guess I should have the thread restarted for bug discussion on live, I might even be able to get other members in qa to say hai!

As far as our bug proccess that might need clearance, but I am willing to do a house of errors blog on better bug submissions, the better the bug the faster QA gets the bug into the database and into the devs court.

Turial
10-13-2009, 11:57 AM
...
As far as our bug proccess that might need clearance, but I am willing to do a house of errors blog on better bug submissions, the better the bug the faster QA gets the bug into the database and into the devs court.

Would likely be of great help.

baylensman
10-13-2009, 12:15 PM
Folks remember various interviews and other sources, basically stated that mod 10 was done long before mod 9 was released! Mod 9 was delayed due to legal issues not bugs or programing issues. So if mod 10 was done why not release it? Bug fixes (i.e. patches) take time to figure out whats broken (in the code not the game) and how to fix it without breaking something else.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-13-2009, 01:09 PM
There should be a fix for disjunction for the next update.

I guess I should have the thread restarted for bug discussion on live, I might even be able to get other members in qa to say hai!

As far as our bug proccess that might need clearance, but I am willing to do a house of errors blog on better bug submissions, the better the bug the faster QA gets the bug into the database and into the devs court.

Thanks for the update.

And any additional feedback from the dev team is always appreciated. Just remember to cast a high level resist fire on yourself before entering the forums. A healthy dose of stoneskin is also useful in dealing with the trolls. We do appreciate your time :)