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doppleganger
10-10-2009, 10:24 AM
Post modified to reflect what we know on this subject.

The first true reincarnation uses a cumulative 5% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+5%, +10%, +15%, etc. up to +95%), for an end result of 3139250 XP.

The second true reincarnation uses a cumulative 10% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+10%, +20%, +30%, etc. up to +190%), for an end result of 4378500 XP.

So, we end up with 1900000 + 3139250 + 4378500 = 9 417 750 xp to level a twice truly reincarnated toon.

see post #10 for Eladrin's contribution to the thread

I hate formatting tabulated data so it looks good, by I like Wildseed's attempt at it, so here goes the two lists of xp required for each level

5250-----02-----5500
16500----03-----18000
34500----04-----39000
48000----05-----56000
62500----06-----75000
78000----07-----96000
94500----08-----119000
112000---09-----144000
130500---10-----171000
165000---11-----220000
170500---12-----231000
192000---13-----264000
214500---14-----299000
238000---15-----336000
262500---16-----375000
288000---17-----416000
314500---18-----459000
342000---19-----504000
370500---20-----551000

And here are the 2 cumulative XP tables

5250-----02-----5500
21750----03-----23500
56250----04-----62500
104250---05-----118500
166750---06-----193500
244750---07-----289500
339250---08-----408500
451250---09-----552500
581750---10-----723500
746750---11-----943500
917250---12-----1174500
1109250--13-----1438500
1323750--14-----1737500
1561750--15-----2073500
1824250--16-----2448500
2112250--17-----2864500
2426750--18-----3323500
2768750--19-----3827500
3139250--20-----4378500

manfredshw
10-10-2009, 01:43 PM
I don't remember how many xp we need to lv2, is that 5000?
If it is right, then true re cost us extra 5% xp to level up.

I ture re-ed one in lama, it seems XXX/5250 to level 2.

Correct me if I am wrong, ty.

BattleCircle
10-10-2009, 01:56 PM
I don't remember how many xp we need to lv2, is that 5000?
If it is right, then true re cost us extra 5% xp to level up.

I ture re-ed one in lama, it seems XXX/5250 to level 2.

Correct me if I am wrong, ty.

If you are correct and it is only another 5%. then I am happy. Thats not bad at all.

Tuney
10-10-2009, 02:46 PM
So basicly it just counters the "DM exp baubles" which you know you are going to pull out from your bank as soon as you can equip it hehe.

Lithic
10-10-2009, 03:09 PM
5% more? thats it? Wow I was expecting like +50% for each time (so double exp after 2 shots), and would have been quite happy to do it for the beneifts too.

doppleganger
10-10-2009, 04:36 PM
I don't remember how many xp we need to lv2, is that 5000?
If it is right, then true re cost us extra 5% xp to level up.

I ture re-ed one in lama, it seems XXX/5250 to level 2.

Correct me if I am wrong, ty.

Thanks for the info! (and yes, it is 5000 for level 2) Well, its not steep at all, I guess Ill be more inclined to try this for at least one toon...

sirgog
10-10-2009, 07:10 PM
I wonder if it stays 5% all through, or if it requires 5% more for level 1, 10% more for level 2, etc... :eek:

Anyone feel like levelling a true reincarnation to 4 or 5 to check?

Althotas
10-10-2009, 08:22 PM
So far it has stayed at 5% I have alevel 3 rogue halfway to level 4 and it is 5% still. Of course since they have the heartson sale on Beta the 5% may be beta only.

doppleganger
10-14-2009, 09:51 AM
Ok, looks like it is steeper after all.

As per the post from Madfloyd:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2482881&postcount=16

"You'll need 1.652236842 times the XP to be precise."

and Spyderwolf screenshot and post:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2483460&postcount=44

It looks like the target for level 20 after 1 true reincarnation is 3 139 250 xp

I wondered where this number came from and postulated a cumulative 5% cost increase per level (5% more to get to level 2, etc to 95% more to get to level 20). I filled quickly a spreadsheet with data, and effectively, I arrived at a total sum of 3 139 250 xp

Just for fun, I supposed the same method would be used for the second reincarnation, but the cost increase being calculated on what was paid during the first reincarnation (5% more on the 5250 at level 1, etc) and arrived at a grand total of 5 283 438 xp

Eladrin
10-14-2009, 10:07 AM
I wondered where this number came from and postulated a cumulative 5% cost increase per level (5% more to get to level 2, etc to 95% more to get to level 20). I filled quickly a spreadsheet with data, and effectively, I arrived at a total sum of 3 139 250 xp
That is correct. We skewed their XP chart towards the later levels because wanted to let True Reincarnated characters get through the early levels to get to their class defining abilities relatively quickly.


Just for fun, I supposed the same method would be used for the second reincarnation, but the cost increase being calculated on what was paid during the first reincarnation (5% more on the 5250 at level 1, etc) and arrived at a grand total of 5 283 438 xp
The second incarnation uses a cumulative 10% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+10%, +20%, +30%, etc.), for an end result of 4378500 XP.

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 10:07 AM
I wondered where this number came from and postulated a cumulative 5% cost increase per level (5% more to get to level 2, etc to 95% more to get to level 20). I filled quickly a spreadsheet with data, and effectively, I arrived at a total sum of 3 139 250 xp



That would suck as that puts the bulk of it at the high levels where xp is most scarse.

doppleganger
10-14-2009, 10:13 AM
That is correct. We skewed their XP chart towards the later levels because wanted to let True Reincarnated characters get through the early levels to get to their class defining abilities relatively quickly.


The second incarnation uses a cumulative 10% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+10%, +20%, +30%, etc.), for an end result of 4378500 XP.

ah ok, thanks for the info. I had just finished doing calculations with that cumulative 10% increase, that was the other likely route you would have taken, I figured!

So, we end up with 1 900 000 + 3 139 250 + 4 378 500 = 9 417 750 xp to level a twice truly reincarnated toon.

doppleganger
10-14-2009, 10:22 AM
That would suck as that puts the bulk of it at the high levels where xp is most scarse.

indeed! I dont think I am going to try this after all, or maybe a long term project on one toon...

Samadhi
10-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Wow serious? That much XP huh. I would rather roll a new character and farm for the gear again - that is far FAR too steep of a curve.

I am suddenly much more gungho on the "develing" program.

For example, functions like a greater reincarnation. Except, if I want to "skip" that wizard splash I took at level three, I can - and instead of being a lvl 17 Ranger/1 Wizard, at the end I'll just be a level 17 ranger. The more levels I want to skip - the more I have to relevel - and a built in learning curve since favor/completions won't reset. (and an alignment change please?)

Sorry, I have a lot of characters with multi-class decisions that rocked when the level cap was 12. Decisions made when we only had 4 enhancements. Was really excited to see a respec mechanism that would help address this - looks like that's a negative atm. :(

Gol
10-14-2009, 10:30 AM
The second incarnation uses a cumulative 10% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+10%, +20%, +30%, etc.), for an end result of 4378500 XP.So it's hardest where the least amount of XP is available (relative to the amount needed to level up)? Ouch.

ArkoHighStar
10-14-2009, 10:41 AM
yeah gotta say this is making me seriously reconsider true reincarnation, the xp just isn't there to farm for what amounts 2 build points in the end, as the past life feats are nothing to write home about.

Turbine I understand ytou don't want to make this an easy button, and I even support the loss of tomes etc, but the xp needs to be looked at, just calculate how many lvl 18-20 quests we will have when this comes out and how much xp we can actually get.

The_Phenx
10-14-2009, 10:47 AM
There obviously will be more upper level quests.

5 New dreaming dark quests for starters...

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 10:57 AM
That is correct. We skewed their XP chart towards the later levels because wanted to let True Reincarnated characters get through the early levels to get to their class defining abilities relatively quickly.


Can you give us a chart breaking down the XP required by level please?

IsengrimEurope
10-14-2009, 10:57 AM
If you have such a steep xp curve you will have to up the rewards a bit. I suggest scrapping the feat system like it is now and just give us one more feat slot for each true reincarnation (possibly even two for the second one). This would make it very balanced as it does not matter what class you reincarnate from. It would also mean that classes that rely mostly on one or two attributes gets a nice reward for doing this.

We have a very nice saying when it comes to business and business models: "make it simple stupid". Which means that making things more complicated than they have to be only leads to problems. If you make the feat system something like it is now you will either have to nerf it to the point where noone is interested in having them, or you will have another "dimension" to character builds that you would have to balance for the rest of DDOs lifetime. If i where a developer i would definately choose to make this system even and simple, or you will be stuck with a "nightmare" that will take away development time from other areas.

maddmatt70
10-14-2009, 11:06 AM
That is correct. We skewed their XP chart towards the later levels because wanted to let True Reincarnated characters get through the early levels to get to their class defining abilities relatively quickly.


The second incarnation uses a cumulative 10% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+10%, +20%, +30%, etc.), for an end result of 4378500 XP.

This requires some serious precision xp farming. Waiting to level to the next level until you are xp capped and reserving as many quality xp quests for the end as you can, etc.. This sounds more like it is designed for the real powerleveling gurus. Ouch for a casual veteran player who just wants to get rid of that one class level they took in mod 3.

Thriand
10-14-2009, 11:19 AM
So the only way to fix a screwed up alignment or bad level splash is to true reincarnate, and you are gonna make people grind out an additional 1.25 million to do that. I think the xp increases are a little steep, especially considering how crappy the xp is in the high end quests (I mean I can get 20k xp from von 3, the pit, and wiz king leveling but only 10k from new invasion)

I'm more than willing to grind this xp out for the extra ability points as I am a power gamer and thats what I do, but for those people who only want to change a 1 level splash or a messed up alignment this is just beyond ridiculous. Either there needs to be another tier added to the reincarnation that offers a true respec for these people or this xp increase need to be scaled back.

Gol
10-14-2009, 11:22 AM
There obviously will be more upper level quests.

5 New dreaming dark quests for starters...
And I'm sure Crucible and Madstone will still sit atop the 6-man quest XP chart.

Thriand
10-14-2009, 11:28 AM
There obviously will be more upper level quests.

5 New dreaming dark quests for starters...

you obviously haven't seen how little xp those quests are worth

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 11:31 AM
you obviously haven't seen how little xp those quests are worth

Have you done the optionals? They are worth a fair bit now...

Shade
10-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Ppl overreacting about xp costs as always, The devs understood the xp when they decided the amounts, it's fine.

There will be way more then enough xp to lvl to 20 at that cost, without suffering any heavy penalties as long as you do a good variety of quests and explorer zones.

I level'd 17-20 on lamannia mostly solo, doing only explorer areas and 2 quests solo - prey and monastary. I didn't even step foot into amrath or any other quests over lvl17 at all, and the huge majority of vale quests are at 0-3 repetitions tops.

You will need to run quests at your lvl and not skip to reaer refuge/amrath right at lvl16 tho. Gona need to hit up orchard and vale a fair bit first.

Thriand
10-14-2009, 11:36 AM
Have you done the optionals? They are worth a fair bit now...

I did everything in those quests they really aren't worth much.

The change to optional xp was an amazing change that really helped while leveling toons from 1-20 the first time. But even with optionals the new shavarath quests and inspired quarter quests pale in comparison to the xp you can recieve from much lower level quests while leveling.

Don't get me wrong I'll grind out the xp both time to get my 4 points, but I do think it is a bit unfair to those who just want a simple alignment change

Lorien_the_First_One
10-14-2009, 11:48 AM
Ppl overreacting about xp costs as always, The devs understood the xp when they decided the amounts, it's fine.

There will be way more then enough xp to lvl to 20 at that cost, without suffering any heavy penalties as long as you do a good variety of quests and explorer zones.

I level'd 17-20 on lamannia mostly solo, doing only explorer areas and 2 quests solo - prey and monastary. I didn't even step foot into amrath or any other quests over lvl17 at all, and the huge majority of vale quests are at 0-3 repetitions tops.

You will need to run quests at your lvl and not skip to reaer refuge/amrath right at lvl16 tho. Gona need to hit up orchard and vale a fair bit first.

Explorers are mind numbingly stupid. The worst grind of the game. We were told we'd never have to do one if we didn't want to to level...


I did everything in those quests they really aren't worth much.

The change to optional xp was an amazing change that really helped while leveling toons from 1-20 the first time. But even with optionals the new shavarath quests and inspired quarter quests pale in comparison to the xp you can recieve from much lower level quests while leveling.

Don't get me wrong I'll grind out the xp both time to get my 4 points, but I do think it is a bit unfair to those who just want a simple alignment change

I agree. Devs have missed the boat here by not designing something between GR and TR.

And I also agree that XP level on the L17+ quests is PATHETIC.

ArkoHighStar
10-14-2009, 11:59 AM
Ppl overreacting about xp costs as always, The devs understood the xp when they decided the amounts, it's fine.

There will be way more then enough xp to lvl to 20 at that cost, without suffering any heavy penalties as long as you do a good variety of quests and explorer zones.

I level'd 17-20 on lamannia mostly solo, doing only explorer areas and 2 quests solo - prey and monastary. I didn't even step foot into amrath or any other quests over lvl17 at all, and the huge majority of vale quests are at 0-3 repetitions tops.

You will need to run quests at your lvl and not skip to reaer refuge/amrath right at lvl16 tho. Gona need to hit up orchard and vale a fair bit first.

Great now we have togrind explorere zones to get enough xp to lvl. Content from lvl14 on is extremely anemic in xp, the shroud has had the nerf bat hammered on it xp wise, the simple fact is the bulk ofthe extra xp required is backloaded on the end where there is the least amount of xp. And given this is the only option Turbines has given us to correct levelling issues, it basically cuts out the majority of players form even wantingto attempt it.

Vhlad
10-14-2009, 12:25 PM
with an XP curve like that (i.e. you could create 4 brand new level 20 characters for the same cost), I'd almost like to see a little more reward to 2x true reincarnating a level 20 we already have and losing all his tomes/favor/raid flagging [and if it takes you 1.5 months to hit the true reincarnate 2x cap (which it may if you're still constantly raiding on all your other characters), that's another 20 completions of each raid that the reincarnated character loses out on].

On one hand, if you add more reward or incentive then that's going to pressure more people into grinding it out so they don't feel subpar. And if someone takes their favourite level 20 and throws him into the reincarnate pot but winds up being unable to complete the grind back to 20, they may lose a lot of heart and end up quitting.

But right now the whole reincarnate thing seems like a bit of a drag. You get 4 extra build points so some players who don't do it will already feel subpar or unoptimized (which for a min-maxer in d&d is an incredibly unfun feeling), but the benefit is not enough to feel excited about doing it (and losing all your favor/tomes/raid flagging in the process).

I think I'd rather have no extra build points at all (i.e. just a status symbol thing - only benefit being a title or a bigger/more buff looking character). Either that or add something to make the prospect of doing a true reincarnation a little more exciting. A bonus feat slot per true reincarnation could help. But really I'd be happier with the game and more satisfied/content to see the whole 36 point build thing scrapped, with true reincarnate having no incentives beyond a title or art effect. Because it's going to nag at me, and I won't be happy with my characters with the knowledge they could be better, and the time-sink/grind to make them all "pefect" 36 pointers may be bad enough for me to say F it, and just go play something else.

You're basically asking me to re-grind the equivalent of at least 24 level 20 characters or sit around being CONSTANTLY nagged and poked and stabbed by the little devil on my shoulder yelling you're not perfect! you're not optimal! noob! If I was someone who played 10 main characters (instead of 6), then that would be the equivalent of grinding 40 new level 20 characters to make my current set "perfect". Where's the barf bucket?

Xaxx
10-14-2009, 01:49 PM
ok quick lesson in mmo's for the turbine devs.... the curve of xp needed for levling should go upwards... ding ding ding.. you got that right... the curve for xp received should ALSO go upwards.... ding dinnnnnnnnnn splat... *warning warning waterworks gives more xp than the new stuff for mod 10* or pretty dang close.

This lower level xp optionals boost where yous tuck optionals everywhere for alot of quests... ok thats to get the froobs up quicker... but completely castrating all new content and the higher xp older high lev content is just moronic. Thats just normal game... you throw this true reincarnation **** in there and it just gets worse...

I know this game splits from alot of mmos in the way some things are done, but core general mmo rules of exp needed goes up and exp goes up.... sorry that is one that shouldnt be broken... but the devs have REAAAAALLLLY managed to botch it latly

Mockduck
10-14-2009, 01:59 PM
Post modified to reflect what we know on this subject.

The first true reincarnation uses a cumulative 5% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+5%, +10%, +15%, etc. up to +95%), for an end result of 3139250 XP.

The second true reincarnation uses a cumulative 10% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+10%, +20%, +30%, etc. up to +190%), for an end result of 4378500 XP.

So, we end up with 1900000 + 3139250 + 4378500 = 9 417 750 xp to level a twice truly reincarnated toon.

see post #10 for Eladrin's contribution to the thread

Nice work, thanks for doing this.

Sirea
10-14-2009, 02:16 PM
(I mean I can get 20k xp from von 3, the pit, and wiz king leveling but only 10k from new invasion)

Quiet Thri, they'll nerf those next :(

Solmage
10-14-2009, 04:34 PM
That would suck as that puts the bulk of it at the high levels where xp is most scarse.

I would like to suggest a change to something that has irritated me for quite a while. I am level 15, I get 100% from my desert kills. I am level 16, and I get like 33% total? That seems a bit excessive doesn't it?

Would you guys please strongly consider a less harsh method of scaling for explorer exp? maybe -10% per level of the area? Or at most -20% per level over?

I think this alone would help alleviate the perceived scarceness of exp.

andreascott89
10-14-2009, 05:40 PM
I see the demand for xp potions rising...

$$

JS

Riggs
10-15-2009, 03:19 AM
That is correct. We skewed their XP chart towards the later levels because wanted to let True Reincarnated characters get through the early levels to get to their class defining abilities relatively quickly.


The second incarnation uses a cumulative 10% increase per level based on the original XP chart (+10%, +20%, +30%, etc.), for an end result of 4378500 XP.

Yeah, like ppl said - how about upping the high level xp by a LOT (so it is not LESS than level 14-16 quests), before making something like a 'respec/reincarnation' cost 1-2 million xp?

I mean...how many times can you run Bastion for 8k?

The only real benefit other than as a respec (its a respec yes), is keeping raid gear. But making it cost 1 million xp to get back from 16 to 20 makes it way more desirable to maybe just forget keeping the gear...and just reroll and farm it again rather than try to grind a megaton of xp from the tiny amount of high level xp available in Mod 9.

Wildseed
10-15-2009, 06:45 AM
I did this by hand with a calculator because I didn't feel like dealing with excel I did check the math on most, however if I am wrong about some of the crunching I apologize.
Breakdown of 1st True reincarnation-2nd true reincarnation
5250 – level 2----------------------5500
21000 – level 3---------------------22000
52500 – level 4---------------------55000
94,500 – level 5---------------------99000
147000 – level 6---------------------154000
210000 – level 7---------------------220000
283500 – level 8---------------------297000
367500 – level 9---------------------385000
462000 – level 10 -------------------48400
577500 – level 11--------------------605000
693000 – level 12 --------------------726000
819000 – level 13 --------------------858000
955500 – level 14 --------------------1001000
1102500 – level 15-------------------1155000
1260000 – level 16-------------------1320000
1428000 – level 17-------------------1496000
1606500 – level 18-------------------1683000
1795500 – level 19-------------------1881000
1995000 – level 20 cap---------------2090000

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 07:52 AM
I did this by hand with a calculator because I didn't feel like dealing with excel I did check the math on most, however if I am wrong about some of the crunching I apologize.
Breakdown of 1st True reincarnation-2nd true reincarnation
5250 – level 2----------------------5500
21000 – level 3---------------------22000
52500 – level 4---------------------55000
94,500 – level 5---------------------99000
147000 – level 6---------------------154000
210000 – level 7---------------------220000
283500 – level 8---------------------297000
367500 – level 9---------------------385000
462000 – level 10 -------------------48400
577500 – level 11--------------------605000
693000 – level 12 --------------------726000
819000 – level 13 --------------------858000
955500 – level 14 --------------------1001000
1102500 – level 15-------------------1155000
1260000 – level 16-------------------1320000
1428000 – level 17-------------------1496000
1606500 – level 18-------------------1683000
1795500 – level 19-------------------1881000
1995000 – level 20 cap---------------2090000


Sorry, its wrong. The progression isn't straight line for first TR at least, they have end loaded the XP so that you get your lower levels quickly and then slow down. The total XP needed is over 3million and is something like 161% of the normal amount. 2nd TR is apparently about double that again.

Wildseed
10-15-2009, 08:32 AM
Sorry, its wrong. The progression isn't straight line for first TR at least, they have end loaded the XP so that you get your lower levels quickly and then slow down. The total XP needed is over 3million and is something like 161% of the normal amount. 2nd TR is apparently about double that again.

Oh, my understanding was that it ended up being 5% added to all levels so toward the higher levels it is more than 5%?

doppleganger
10-15-2009, 08:39 AM
Oh, my understanding was that it ended up being 5% added to all levels so toward the higher levels it is more than 5%?

indeed, it gets a lot higher.

for level 2, they added 5%
for level 3, they added 10%
for level 4, they added 15%
...
for level 20, they added 95%

Stimulated by your attempt at it, I added complete XP tables in the OP

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2009, 09:27 AM
indeed, it gets a lot higher.

for level 2, they added 5%
for level 3, they added 10%
for level 4, they added 15%
...
for level 20, they added 95%

Stimulated by your attempt at it, I added complete XP tables in the OP

Hey nice work!

Hmm... I still think the curve is too steep for what you get, but looking at your chart I have to agree with the devs approach for loading in the extra XP. This way you don't spend too much time grinding on a baby L2, at least the nasty grind is L14 and up where you have a more interestng char to play.

Wildseed
10-15-2009, 11:30 AM
indeed, it gets a lot higher.

for level 2, they added 5%
for level 3, they added 10%
for level 4, they added 15%
...
for level 20, they added 95%

Stimulated by your attempt at it, I added complete XP tables in the OP

Glad I could help :-) Good job and thank you!

Rekker
10-15-2009, 12:19 PM
And by the time someone is able to get through (2) TRs you will be able to buy it on the DDO Store for $10 :rolleyes:

smithers
10-15-2009, 01:24 PM
I was expecting something like 50% penalty, which is pretty close to how the first reincarnation evens out.

On a character's third life though, man that's tough.

I can't imagine farming enough XP to get a normal character capped at 20 before even hitting level 8.

I've been laying in bed at night thinking about all the possibilities for my characters but after seeing this list most my interest has gone out the window.

Probably have 1 guy would would go once, but I wouldn't even consider the grind that the second trip would require.

It's not a matter of time, it's a matter of repetition. Running each quest 5+ times and farming slayers UGH.

I think you'd need 2 or 3 times the content that DDO offers today to make that second curve anything but insane.