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Kistilan
10-10-2009, 07:27 AM
Hey Turbine-

Great job using Reincarnation as a tool for fixing characters and giving us a +2 in build points. I think that's swell. I'm happily amused with the way The Great Respec Thread Wars turned out. I'm serious -- although let's be honest -- you guys are draining the coffer (selling +2 tomes now, etc). I hope this curbs at some point.

Now then, let's get on to business. Everyone has pretty much decided the Feats for a True Reincarnate are not really hot sauce. I agree for one, and although you could tweak them, let's not get our heads wrapped around the idea that these feats should be your only reason besides the build points to start out at level 1 again.

Enter the Prestige Class. Make certain Past Lifes open PrCs. You've got us some PrEs -- that's great, don't change it! However, if a PrC opens due to a past life (Fighter = Gladiator for example), individuals would be thrilled to roll up to 20 and reroll again! Best of all, just PROMISE this is in development and people WILL actively use it in their metagaming schemes.

For example, give us a list of what Past Lifes unlock PrCs. Moreso, make some really complex PrCs require TWO Past Lifes.

I don't really have a good sourcebook to flesh out the PrCs that should unlock per their Past Life, but I'll do a few off the top of my head:

List of Suggested PrCs requiring True Reincarnation Past Life Feats:



Wiz: Any + Sorc: Any - Wizard: Archmagi
Wiz: Any + Sorc: Any - Sorcerer: Mage of the Arcane Order
Wiz: Pale Hand + Sorc: Any - Sorcerer: Demon Sorcerer
Wiz: Pale Hand + Barb: Any - Wizard: Bloodmage
Wiz: Any + Rogue: Any or Bard: Any - Wizard: Eldritch Tinkerer
Sorcerer: Master of Elements - Sorcerer: Elementalist - Sorcerer: Geomancer


Cleric/Fav Soul: Any + Sorc/Wiz: Any - Cleric: Mystic Theurge
Bard: Any + Fighter: Any - Bard: Bladesinger
Bard: Any + Rogue: Any - Bard: Greentongue
Fighter: Any + Fighter: Any - Fighter: Warblade
Fighter: Kensai - Fighter: Blademaster - Fighter: Gladiator
Fighter: Any + Sorc: Any or Wiz: Any - Fighter: Eldritch Knight
Fighter: Any + Sorc: Any - Fighter: Duskblade (PHB II)
Fighter: Any + Cleric: Any or Paladin: Any - Fighter: Templar
Paladin: Any + Favored Soul: Any - Paladin: Crusader
Fighter: Any + Paladin: Any - Paladin: Knight (similar to Templar, more Chivalrous than Templar)
Paladin: Any + Wiz: Pale Hand Lawful Neutral Align - Paladin: Blackguard (Lawful Evil)
Barb: Any + Fighter: Any - Fighter: Mercenary


Ranger: Any + Rogue: Any - Rogue: Infiltrator
Ranger: Tempest - Ranger: Duelist
Ranger: Any + Rogue: Any - Ranger: Scout (similar to Infiltrator, more ranger aspects in this, less rogue aspects)
Rogue: Asassin - Rogue: Unseen/Invisible Blade
Rogue: Acrobat - Rogue: Swashbuckler
Rogue: Any + Fighter: Any - Rogue: Swashbuckler (second recomendation)
Rogue: Any + Wiz: Any - Rogue: Spell Thief
Monk: Any + Paladin: Any - Monk: Samurai
Monk: Any + Fighter: Any or Ranger: Any - Monk: Ninja
Monk: Any + Fighter: Any - Monk: Swordsage
Monk: Any + Cleric/Fav Soul: Any - Monk: Sacred Fist
Monk: Any + Wizard: Any or Bard: Any - Enlightened Fist
NEW SUGGESTIONS: These are Eberron-Specific PrCs that require an alternate pinnacle at Reincarnation to be unlocked.


Exorcist of the Silver Flame: Special Class, unlocked by any divine class (Fav Soul, Paladin, Cleric) with benchmark Silverflame Achieved (near current in-game max -- throw out a number of Silverflame Favor for this)
Dragonmark Heir: Any class with a House's maximum favor receives that Houses lesser Dragonmark for free. The character may expend APs to unlock more powerful versions of the Dragonmark of their chosen house, and receives one additional use of the Dragonmark than a standard character that purchases the feat. If reincarnated again with maximum House Favor of the corresponding house, the character gains 2 additional uses than a standard character and receives both lesser and greater dragonmark feat enhancements for free.
Eldeen Ranger: A Ranger Class tied to a favor amount before reincarnation -- unfamiliar.
Extreme Explorer: A Reincarnated Character that has achieved 2500+ Favor prior to Reincarnation. Additional Benefits in new class/PrC will be granted as per Past Life: Extreme Explorer Feat upon Reincarnation. Feat may be enhanced via APs throughout Second Life Progression.
Heir of Siberys: A PrC Past Life Feat linked to Favor? A Paladin specific Class? Perhaps requires All 4 Houses Max Favor Unlocked to receive The Mark of Siberys.
Master Inquisitive: A PrC Past Life Feat linked to Agent of Argonnessen Favor - Max Total Achieved. Suggestion to Ability for next life: Unknown.
Warforged Juggernaut: Warforged-Only PrC (requires to be Warforged at Reincarnation). Warforged must be equipped with the Titanic Docent, which will be infused within the Warforged (Artifact Destroyed) upon Reincarnation. Warforged is granted PrC access to Warforged Juggernaut. A new Titanic Docent may be equipped when available at the proper level (can have 2 Titanic Docents, 1 equipped = destroyed, 1 in backpack goes to Reincarnation Vault).


These kinds of requisites would make a lot of sense. A Past Life should influence new paths unavailable to a Pure Soul.

Updated to reflect suggestions. 16 October 2009.

PS: I also agree perhaps an enhanced Prestige Enhancement List for Ranger to Ranger Paragon (Second Life Ranger) would be a good idea.

Asketes
10-10-2009, 07:57 AM
ohhh VERY interesting idea.


+1 rep for a phenomenally brilliant idea (imo)

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 08:28 AM
ohhh VERY interesting idea.


+1 rep for a phenomenally brilliant idea (imo)

/bows

Aye, Thank-you! I'll be here til Turbine sells the Win button.

PS: Brenna (SableShadow) & I coined the term Reincarnation in The Great Respec Thread Wars too. It's obviously D&D Terminology, but that's where the suggestion started.

Nyvn
10-10-2009, 08:39 AM
You know, this really is a phenomenally great idea! Currently True Reincarnation only seems worth it for a truly broken character, or at least one the player perceives as such. Losing tomes and having to relevel even with the extra stat points isn't all that appealing to me. I have 1 character that I'm planning on Giving a True Reincarnation to, for the rest a Lesser or Greater will be more than enough. I'm sure this would not be in the first release of Reincarnations would definitely make them more appealing and sell more of them.

todddo
10-10-2009, 08:53 AM
Your idea is terrible becaouse it locks out those who started out with a specific class and wish to end up with the same class. For the PRE's which require two past life feats that is.

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 08:55 AM
Your idea is terrible becaouse it locks out those who started out with a specific class and wish to end up with the same class. For the PRE's which require two past life feats that is.

Eh? If you want to stay the same class, this doesn't affect you...

If you want a PrC from the class you started + some other class, this idea does affect you (and in no way locks you out).

Could you give an example? Maybe we have a misnomer or some sort of miscommunication.

Claver
10-10-2009, 08:59 AM
I too think this could be a very interesting idea.

I would like to see your idea implemented.

In the meantime, Turbine could expand upon the existing enhancement tree for prestige classes that are already in the game by offering additional enhancement lines for action points that are ONLY open to those who have been True reincarnated. These benefits could be available to the True Reincarnated character at earlier levels rather than 6/12/18 in addition to the benefits of the standard prestige class.

Consider it Prestige Plus+ on Steroids


1st Life (at least 6 levels of Fighter or higher) = 2nd life Uber Kensai with additional enhancement options available at lower levels

1st Life (Ranger 6 levels or higher) = 2nd life Uber Tempest with additional enhancement options available at lower levels, or 2nd life Uber Deepwood Sniper with additional enhancement options available at lower levels, or 2nd life Uber Arcane Archer with additional enhancement options available at lower levels

todddo
10-10-2009, 09:10 AM
[QUOTE=Kistilan;2475619]For example, give us a list of what Past Lifes unlock PrCs. Moreso, make some really complex PrCs require TWO Past Lifes./QUOTE]

This.

E.G. If i wanted a cleric PRE that has prereq of two other past life feats it is impossible to get if you started initially with the cleric class.

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 09:14 AM
For example, give us a list of what Past Lifes unlock PrCs. Moreso, make some really complex PrCs require TWO Past Lifes.

This.

E.G. If i wanted a cleric PRE that has prereq of two other past life feats it is impossible to get if you started initially with the cleric class.

Again, I think a misunderstanding is going on.

I did not list any sort of combination where a result was Fighter + Rogue = Cleric PrC. That would have been.... unintuitive.

Aspenor
10-10-2009, 09:14 AM
I will give you one thing, Kist, it definitely fits in with Turbine's motto:

Roll up more characters

and

Buy character slots.

While this would be a super uber grind fest, I have to say I like the concept.

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 09:15 AM
I will give you one thing, Kist, it definitely fits in with Turbine's motto:

Roll up more characters

and

Buy character slots.

While this would be a super uber grind fest, I have to say I like the concept.

*L* Thanks Asp. That means a lot coming from you.

PS: If you have some combination suggestions to list, or refinements, please do! I know you've always been a big PrC fan.

Aspenor
10-10-2009, 09:19 AM
One progression I like, which would be sick:

First life: Wizard or Sorcerer
Second life: Sorcerer or Wizard (whatever you didn't take first)
Last Life (Sorcerer): Mage of the Arcane Order

Mage of the Arcane Order is such a sick class for sorcerers to take, but it would be hard to balance. Mage of the Arcane Order gives access to a "spell pool" of known spells taught by the Order, in PnP effectively growing a sorcerer's spell choices by a huge amount. In DDO it might have to be translated as one additional known spell of each level, or something.

Still, hard to balance.

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 09:22 AM
One progression I like, which would be sick:

First life: Wizard or Sorcerer
Second life: Sorcerer or Wizard (whatever you didn't take first)
Last Life (Sorcerer): Mage of the Arcane Order

Mage of the Arcane Order is such a sick class for sorcerers to take, but it would be hard to balance. Mage of the Arcane Order gives access to a "spell pool" of known spells taught by the Order, in PnP effectively growing a sorcerer's spell choices by a huge amount. In DDO it might have to be translated as one additional known spell of each level, or something.

Still, hard to balance.

I agree the additional spell benefit would have to be capped (else why play Wiz) but this + an additional bonus to their Elements would make it appealing still, whereas the reverse choice would be Archmagi - Wizard-based PrC with additional spell slots, the entire spell list to pick from, and enhanced DCs.

EDIT: Updated Initial Suggestion. Refined List. Please continue to add suggestions to this as any see fit!

Mjesko
10-10-2009, 11:25 AM
That is a great idea and more useful than the current past life feats, because the limited number of feats makes every feat very important and PrE cost only AP, which are not as limited as feats.

Another reason for a true reincarnation would be the option to purchase base ability scores of 19 and 20:
19: 19 points
20: 22 points

Borror0
10-10-2009, 11:52 AM
While this would be a super uber grind fest, I have to say I like the concept.
Well, it's pretty much the same as the Past Life feats: great idea and interesting concept but could turn into being an horribly painful grind.

Another reason for a true reincarnation would be the option to purchase base ability scores of 19 and 20:
19: 19 points
20: 22 points
Other than being "Yay, more power!" I don't see what's supposed to be particularly interesting about this idea.

Mjesko
10-10-2009, 11:56 AM
Other than being "Yay, more power!" I don't see what's supposed to be particularly interesting about this idea.

It could enable more build options, because a player can either spend the 34 or 36 points on different ability scores or he can increase his primary ability scores.

NinetyNineTails
10-10-2009, 12:17 PM
It could enable more build options, because a player can either spend the 34 or 36 points on different ability scores or he can increase his primary ability scores.

Given that primary ability scores are a major part of many classes' ability to apply themselves, I think that giving True Reincarnation users that much of an advantage over non-reincarnated players could easily be a mistake. You already get, at worst, some extra HP, AC, or skill points. It could be worse.

Mjesko
10-10-2009, 12:20 PM
Given that primary ability scores are a major part of many classes' ability to apply themselves, I think that giving True Reincarnation users that much of an advantage over non-reincarnated players could easily be a mistake. You already get, at worst, some extra HP, AC, or skill points. It could be worse.

Yes you are right, but i think with all these inflated scores in DDO another +1 to hit, to the DC, ... does not really matter :)

DagazUlf
10-10-2009, 12:59 PM
Very interesting. I like this a lot. :)

Borror0
10-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Yes you are right, but i think with all these inflated scores in DDO another +1 to hit, to the DC, ... does not really matter :)
"It is broken. Therefore, rather than fix it, we should break it more" Something like that?

By the way, I'm not saying it is a bad idea. I have not played with 36 point buy characters to know that yet.

Seneca_Windforge
10-10-2009, 01:11 PM
Well, it's pretty much the same as the Past Life feats: great idea and interesting concept but could turn into being an horribly painful grind.

Other than being "Yay, more power!" I don't see what's supposed to be particularly interesting about this idea.

Exactly.

The only reason I'm even considering True Reincarnation at all is because there's no other way to remove the cleric level I took on my wizard back in mod 2. I don't want to feel like I'm missing something really significant just because I don't want to do a huge grind.

FluffyCalico
10-10-2009, 01:33 PM
Hey Turbine-

Great job using Reincarnation as a tool for fixing characters and giving us a +2 in build points. I think that's swell. I'm happily amused with the way The Great Respec Thread Wars turned out. I'm serious -- although let's be honest -- you guys are draining the coffer (selling +2 tomes now, etc). I hope this curbs at some point.

Now then, let's get on to business. Everyone has pretty much decided the Feats for a True Reincarnate are not really hot sauce. I agree for one, and although you could tweak them, let's not get our heads wrapped around the idea that these feats should be your only reason besides the build points to start out at level 1 again.

Enter the Prestige Class. Make certain Past Lifes open PrCs. You've got us some PrEs -- that's great, don't change it! However, if a PrC opens due to a past life (Fighter = Gladiator for example), individuals would be thrilled to roll up to 20 and reroll again! Best of all, just PROMISE this is in development and people WILL actively use it in their metagaming schemes.

For example, give us a list of what Past Lifes unlock PrCs. Moreso, make some really complex PrCs require TWO Past Lifes.

I don't really have a good sourcebook to flesh out the PrCs that should unlock per their Past Life, but I'll do a few off the top of my head:

List of Suggested PrCs requiring True Reincarnation Past Life Feats:


Wiz: Any + Sorc: Any - Wizard: Archmagi
Wiz: Any + Sorc: Any - Sorcerer: Mage of the Arcane Order
Wiz: Pale Hand + Sorc: Any - Sorcerer: Demon Sorcerer
Wiz: Pale Hand + Barb: Any - Wizard: Bloodmage
Wiz: Any + Rogue: Any or Bard: Any - Wizard: Eldritch Tinkerer
Sorcerer: Master of Elements - Sorcerer: Elementalist - Sorcerer: Geomancer


Cleric: Any + Sorc/Wiz: Any - Cleric: Mystic Theurge
Bard: Any + Fighter: Any - Bard: Bladesinger
Fighter: Kensai - Fighter: Blademaster - Fighter: Gladiator
Fighter: Any + Cleric: Any or Paladin: Any - Fighter: Templar
Paladin: Any + Wiz: Pale Hand Lawful Neutral Align - Paladin: Blackguard (Lawful Evil)
Barb: Any + Fighter: Any - Fighter: Mercenary


Ranger: Any + Rogue: Any - Rogue: Infiltrator
Ranger: Tempest - Ranger: Duelist
Rogue: Asassin - Rogue: Unseen/Invisible Blade
Monk: Any + Paladin: Any - Monk: Samurai
Monk: Any + Fighter: Any or Ranger: Any - Monk: Ninja

These kinds of requisites would make a lot of sense. A Past Life should influence new paths unavailable to a Pure Soul.

PS: Updated to reflect suggestions.

PPS: I also agree perhaps an enhanced Prestige Enhancement List for Ranger to Ranger Paragon (Second Life Ranger) would be a good idea.

no same problem as turbines. I do not want to reroll something into something else. You should get better at what you already did if you do it again. Noone wants to make their ranger a sorc or their barb fighter or their rogue a bard. People want to make their whatever abetter whatever it is.

Mjesko
10-11-2009, 03:06 AM
"It is broken. Therefore, rather than fix it, we should break it more" Something like that?

Hehe yes, because i dont think Turbine will fix all the inflated scores in DDO.


no same problem as turbines. I do not want to reroll something into something else. You should get better at what you already did if you do it again. Noone wants to make their ranger a sorc or their barb fighter or their rogue a bard. People want to make their whatever abetter whatever it is.

Hmmm, yes that is really a problem of the past life system. If the rewards are very good players would probably need to play a class which they dont want to play only to get a more powerful version of another class. On the other hand if the past life feats and enhancements are not worth it they would probably end like dragonmarks. I think that is another reason to give characters that used true reincarnation the option to purchase base ability scores of 19 and 20.

Borror0
10-11-2009, 03:25 AM
Hehe yes, because i dont think Turbine will fix all the inflated scores in DDO.
The addition of grazing hits suggest that they are interested in addressing them.

Mjesko
10-11-2009, 03:26 AM
The addition of grazing hits suggest that they are interested in addressing them.

Hmmm ok good point, but the grazing hit damage is too low at the higher levels with the inflated hp of monsters.

Borror0
10-11-2009, 03:46 AM
Hmmm ok good point, but the grazing hit damage is too low at the higher levels with the inflated hp of monsters.
I know. I said that I don't know many times in the official grazing hits thread. :)

smithers
10-11-2009, 06:51 AM
I know. I said that I don't know many times in the official grazing hits thread. :)

Interesting idea, but I don't think they should put that much work into the whole reincarnation thing.

As described so far, it's a way to rebuild a character while preserving raid loot, with a bit of flavor and small bonuses along the way.

The other purpose is to give the most hard-core grinders something to do once all their chars hit level 20 with desired loot.

To meet the second objective the levelling penalty is likely to be considerable; I'm guessing something closer to 50% not 10%.

With that kind of grind, I think they have to take care not to make this option too compelling or it will turn off casual gamers, and time invested in the system is of course time that can't be spent making new quests, creating new races, classes, etc...

I think the synergies you are talking about should be discovered by people looking at the past-life bonuses and existing PrEs. If two past lives make you a "gladiator" then explain this in your Bio; no need IMO to lay out all the options for players it just becomes more cookie-cutter at that point, and probably overpowered.

BlackRage
10-11-2009, 07:16 AM
This idea actually holds water. Reminds me of the 1st Ed Bard - very nice.

woundead85
10-11-2009, 07:50 AM
I'd say this might be interesting. One one hand we have veteran players who need something more to keep them pay.. ahem, busy...that is...On the other, there are new suc...players, who start from scratch and don't want to feel impaired. Though with all the elitist MMOs out there, I might think that's what the world is looking for now.
Anyhow, this idea is good, but to keep it more balanced we might need to invent something else. Like improved dungeon scaling system, which will recognize Reincarnated toons and address it right. Just a suggestion, ideas might vary. But I do look to this idea being thought carefully off.
OP, throw some more rogues out there :D

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 10:13 AM
OP, throw some more rogues out there :D

*laughs*

You know I'm interested in it! One of my favorite classes! I will see if I can unpack my 3.5 Supps (I think I have some laying in the spare room somewhere!) and I'm sure I have the Rogue one.

Don't be afraid to suggest (as Aspenor did) some PrCs that you know would work! Give a combo of classes and what they do too (base classes or class progression as I did with Fighter: Kensai - Blademaster - Gladiator, essentially a Fighter, Fighter, Fighter Reincarnation Tier.

stockwizard5
10-11-2009, 10:22 AM
We have many guildies who essentialy are saying ... for example:

"What do I get if I reroll (TR) my Cleric as a Cleric" to which I have to answer almost nothing.

From what I can tell almost everyone is willing to reroll their favorite characters to make some changes and get new benefits. Rerolling as something totally different - not so much.

I think adding some feat improvements for same class (or similar) would help.

SableShadow
10-11-2009, 10:33 AM
I think it's a winner, Kist. Can't say I'd ever do it personally, but it's interesting and different.

Rogue: Swashbuckler would be what, Rogue: Acrobat->Rogue? Or Bard->Rogue? Or Rogue->Rogue:Acrobat? Or Rogue->Rogue->Rogue?

Maybe give two or three ways to get each PrC, with both one Incarnation (diff classes) and two Incarnations (same class), and mix/match AP before/AP after, presenting more options at the end character rather than just one.

Now you've got a PrC system that rewards (potentially) the changing of base class, but grants a similar reward to someone who stays pure, just taking an extra Incarnation to do it.

And in any case, any tangible benefit should take a feat slot and should be minor but useful, and based either on your first class (for single Incarnates) or last class (for double Incarnates).

Tharlak
10-11-2009, 10:38 AM
Great idea, Turbine should pay you for it.

Junts
10-11-2009, 10:45 AM
One progression I like, which would be sick:

First life: Wizard or Sorcerer
Second life: Sorcerer or Wizard (whatever you didn't take first)
Last Life (Sorcerer): Mage of the Arcane Order

Mage of the Arcane Order is such a sick class for sorcerers to take, but it would be hard to balance. Mage of the Arcane Order gives access to a "spell pool" of known spells taught by the Order, in PnP effectively growing a sorcerer's spell choices by a huge amount. In DDO it might have to be translated as one additional known spell of each level, or something.

Still, hard to balance.

The instant they place that in the game, no one would ever be a wizard except to level up to qualify.

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 03:18 PM
We have many guildies who essentialy are saying ... for example:

"What do I get if I reroll (TR) my Cleric as a Cleric" to which I have to answer almost nothing.

From what I can tell almost everyone is willing to reroll their favorite characters to make some changes and get new benefits. Rerolling as something totally different - not so much.

I think adding some feat improvements for same class (or similar) would help.

For this one, Stock, being that Cleric is my least favorite class, is find some pure Cleric PrCs that haven't become PrEs and mention those.

My second answer is some classes may opt for a simple "High Cleric" ie Cleric - Paragon. This could be unlocked with Cleric Reincarnation as a Cleric. I can't imagine the appropriate bonuses, but additional healing capability, turning, DCs, Quest Spells (Very Big Stuff) could be the boons of remaining a Paragon Class.



I think it's a winner, Kist. Can't say I'd ever do it personally, but it's interesting and different.

Rogue: Swashbuckler would be what, Rogue: Acrobat->Rogue? Or Bard->Rogue? Or Rogue->Rogue:Acrobat? Or Rogue->Rogue->Rogue?

Maybe give two or three ways to get each PrC, with both one Incarnation (diff classes) and two Incarnations (same class), and mix/match AP before/AP after, presenting more options at the end character rather than just one.

Now you've got a PrC system that rewards (potentially) the changing of base class, but grants a similar reward to someone who stays pure, just taking an extra Incarnation to do it.

And in any case, any tangible benefit should take a feat slot and should be minor but useful, and based either on your first class (for single Incarnates) or last class (for double Incarnates).

Swashbuckler... Definitely Rogue:Acrobat. at the minimal. From there I'd add a d20 versatile class option called Greentongue (I think). So....

Rogue: Acrobat - Rogue: Swashbuckler
But
Rogue: Any + Bard: Any - Bard: Greentongue (a mixed fencer rogue type guy ie skills with casting capability)



Great idea, Turbine should pay you for it.

*LOL!* I'm ok with not being on their payroll. I'd feel obligated to keep giving good ideas away if they did that. And I'm too busy to constantly do that. But thanks for the compliment!



The instant they place that in the game, no one would ever be a wizard except to level up to qualify.

We discussed it though -- toning it down to only 1 more spell slot out of "known" spells and additional elemental damage would be still different than a wizard.

In addition, whereas the Sorc gains more spells to pool from, let the Wizard memorize more spells (+1 to each level) to cast out of the ENTIRE selection. And possibly add Archmagi spells (known only to the most studious wizards). It would work and still make them attractive -- as well as a +1 DC to all spells or something similar.

transtemporal
10-11-2009, 04:49 PM
Nice idea kist. Lots of interesting build possibilities there. I think it would be a mistake to make past life PrE's more powerful than the current ones but I think it would be super cool if they gave you access to something you couldn't obtain any other way.

Robi3.0
10-11-2009, 05:00 PM
I got one.

Wiz or sorc + Fighter = Eldritch Knight.

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 05:22 PM
Nice idea kist. Lots of interesting build possibilities there. I think it would be a mistake to make past life PrE's more powerful than the current ones but I think it would be super cool if they gave you access to something you couldn't obtain any other way.

Yeah, I've musing along that...

The commeon critique is, "But I want to stay pure class."

Some don't want to make an upgrade to the PrC, but want a benefit of something extra to the oompf on top of a Past Life Feat (which is mostly useless other than tagging you for what you could qualify under this suggested system) or the extra build points for each True Reincarnation.

The only thing I have to offer at the moment is much like a "Ultimate Pure Race ie The Paragon" would be the "Paragon Class." Some of these things are so similar to PrCs though... for example, Archmagi, Mage of the Order, Blademaster, Gladiator, Swashbuckler, Invisible Blade, Bladesinger, Duelist, etc. They are in reality "Paragon Wiz," "Paragon Sorc," "Paragon Fighter," "Paragon Fighter," "Paragon Rogue," "Paragon Rogue," "Paragon Bard," "Paragon Ranger."

I'm just not familiar with "Ultimate" names of Clerics, Rangers (mostly), and Monks. If I could offer a "Pure Cleric Paragon Name," I would. That could alleviate the issue slightly of Enhanced PrE for Same Class issue. Basically, if you want access to Enhanced Prestige Enhancements, you would have to pick the Paragon Class (like Swashbuckler), but it would be pretty similar to your Rogue: Acrobat PrE you initially had with some added flare in the Swashbuckler realm. So if we could name a Cleric: Any - Cleric: Paragon Name Here, it should be relatively similar to the original Cleric 20 with the added flare of the Paragon Class.

And then you have the off-the-wall stuff -- like Mystic Theurge. This is more like a Favored Soul -- a PrC of itself that is completely new and has no direct relation to its origins other than it has some Cleric tendencies, some Sorc tendencies, etc. For obvious reasons, I can't really give Favored Soul a PrC upgrade at this time -- it's not a base class. It's also a "You buy it or you earn it through 2500 favor," so it sort of is like unlocking the other PrC suggested by using the True Reincarnation process. And any Favored Soul that desires to Reincarnate still gains the additional build points. Maybe Turbine could simply give the Favored Soul Class a "Paragon Favored Soul." This is the only thing I can think of to solve it. Maybe even a Three-Tier Favored Soul.

For Instance: Possible Favored Soul Reincarnation Progression (by name, no idea what they'd do for the abilities).

Favoured Soul
Reincarnate Soul
Ascended Soul

This would be taking the 3.5 mechanics, tweaking what it would be on paper, and then applying it to the game. Each one would be an upgraded Soul with some new Enhancements. The largest thing I can think of would be additional spellpoints in each version. Another thing might be a Perfected Soul +2 (+4) Feat granted in which the Favored Soul gains +2 to Charisma as a Reincarnate Soul and a +4 to Charisma as an Ascended Soul. It would basically be a living battery of energy -- which is what Ascension really is. If no other adjustments were made, that would be 200/400 SPs more on top of any other sort of tweaks (Additional Spells/Points) granted if the player maintained the same stats as the first Favored Soul. Of course they'll be 34/36 point versions, so they could gain more. An "Ascended Soul" with the proper gear at level 20 could Theoretically be shooting for SPs in the 5,000 range. Note I did not recommend in this to grant them additional damage capabilities, DCs, attack bonuses, etc. I think being the Energizer Bunny of Classes would be enough. Perhaps they could gain access to 1 Past Life Feat called "Transfer Energy" in which they can discharge 100 SPs at a time to a caster in party and reenergize them.


I got one.

Wiz or sorc + Fighter = Eldritch Knight.

Added to the front page. Nice suggestion!

zealous
10-12-2009, 09:23 AM
Interesting idea, could add them as PrCs requiring multiclassing with the option of qualifying for lower tiers with past lives.

If qualification is only through past lives I think it would either be only applicable to a small(er) portion of the population or a "must-have" if the past-life PrCs add substantial benefits. Neither is worth the dev time imo.

Eladrin
10-12-2009, 10:12 AM
We've been considering allowing things like the Sorcerer: Arcane Prodigy feat to unlock Arcane Archer, but this is definitely an interesting thread.

The_Ick
10-12-2009, 10:29 AM
Much like the OP, I am not a huge fan of True Reincarnation. I just don’t think TR has a big enough pay off for what you are giving up. Like the OP said, unless a toon is truly broken, it just doesn’t make sense.

I do like this idea however and I think it would really add a reason for people to work towards a TR. I must admit, I am a little biased. I am so against TR in its current form that I would view any change as an improvement. :D

I have to think that one of turbines main focuses for DDO development (other then drawing in new players) is to extend the life of the game for existing players, to keep us paying & buying. It would seem to make good business sense to me to make TR as attractive as possible to as many people as possible because it essentially doubles the life of a character.

Inspire
10-12-2009, 10:59 AM
I really like the idea, but I think I would like to see it without having to reincarnate.

Hafeal
10-12-2009, 11:27 AM
It is an intriguing idea. I don't know that I would go to such lengths with my characters, but it would certainly seem to appeal to a certain crowd without necessarily being game-breaking. Nice to see the devs are intrigued as well.


We've been considering allowing things like the Sorcerer: Arcane Prodigy feat to unlock Arcane Archer, but this is definitely an interesting thread.

binnsr
10-12-2009, 12:04 PM
An interesting idea, and one that I like.

As an option, I think it would be nice to see, rather than the past life feats, would be to let characters take PrE's from their past lifes as a feat.
I.E. I have a 20 ranger with Tempest III and True Reincarnate him as a 20 Barbarian Frenzied Berzerker. As 3 of my feats, I could take Tempest I, Tempest II and Tempest III. If I then True Reincarnated as a 20 Paladin, I could use 6 of my 7 feats to pick up Both Frenzy III and Tempest III.. (or a combination of the two).

I can see a few builds being unbalanced, but the necessary expenditure of scarce feats should limit that somewhat.

foxx
10-12-2009, 12:08 PM
Your idea is terrible becaouse it locks out those who started out with a specific class and wish to end up with the same class. For the PRE's which require two past life feats that is.





well roll one up mr noob, and join the club.

Thrudh
10-12-2009, 12:35 PM
An interesting idea, and one that I like.

As an option, I think it would be nice to see, rather than the past life feats, would be to let characters take PrE's from their past lifes as a feat.
I.E. I have a 20 ranger with Tempest III and True Reincarnate him as a 20 Barbarian Frenzied Berzerker. As 3 of my feats, I could take Tempest I, Tempest II and Tempest III. If I then True Reincarnated as a 20 Paladin, I could use 6 of my 7 feats to pick up Both Frenzy III and Tempest III.. (or a combination of the two).

I can see a few builds being unbalanced, but the necessary expenditure of scarce feats should limit that somewhat.


LOL... think it through a bit more, friend....

Tempest I now costs 3 feats, and of course 6 ranger levels. You want to give it to a 20 pure Frenzied Barbarian for one feat?

Borror0
10-12-2009, 12:41 PM
LOL... think it through a bit more, friend....

Tempest I now costs 3 feats, and of course 6 ranger levels. You want to give it to a 20 pure Frenzied Barbarian for one feat?
Fighters get most of the benefits for 2 APs.

binnsr
10-12-2009, 12:48 PM
An interesting idea, and one that I like.

As an option, I think it would be nice to see, rather than the past life feats, would be to let characters take PrE's from their past lifes as a feat.
I.E. I have a 20 ranger with Tempest III and True Reincarnate him as a 20 Barbarian Frenzied Berzerker. As 3 of my feats, I could take Tempest I, Tempest II and Tempest III. If I then True Reincarnated as a 20 Paladin, I could use 6 of my 7 feats to pick up Both Frenzy III and Tempest III.. (or a combination of the two).

I can see a few builds being unbalanced, but the necessary expenditure of scarce feats should limit that somewhat.LOL... think it through a bit more, friend....

Tempest I now costs 3 feats, and of course 6 ranger levels. You want to give it to a 20 pure Frenzied Barbarian for one feat?


Technically, it requires 5 feats, but rangers get two of those as class-granted feats. This would make it 3 feats for the same benefit (TWF, iTWF and Past Life: Tempest I) To pick up Past Life: Tempest II, said barbarian would need gTWF and Past Life: Tempest I. That's 5 of 7 feats right there, and 6 if the barby took Past Life: Tempest III. That leaves one feat for Toughness, Power Attack, etc.

Balance could also be achieved by requiring feat pre-reqs to take them: make the Barby take oTWF in order to get that Tempest III capability.

If you wanted to take it one farther, require *ALL* of the feats needed for Tempest I in order to get Past Life: Tempest I -- so in order to pick it up, the reincarnated character would have to have ALL of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting. For Tempest II, that's currently a dex enhancement requirement -- lets just say they have to have gTWF (that's a DEX requirement of a different sort). For Tempest III, make them take one of: Lightning Reflexes, Two Weapon Defense, Two Weapon Blocking, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. There.. only fighters get remotely close to enough feats to make that viable.

IMO, PrE's should never have been locked into class alone; that goes contrary to the spirit of PrC's in PnP. D&D PrC's use skill ranks, feats, alignment, spell casting ability, etc. as prerequisites for entry.. not class levels.

moorewr
10-12-2009, 12:53 PM
IMO, PrE's should never have been locked into class alone; that goes contrary to the spirit of PrC's in PnP. D&D PrC's use skill ranks, feats, alignment, spell casting ability, etc. as prerequisites for entry.. not class levels.

Amen.

woundweaver
10-12-2009, 02:00 PM
Yeah, I've musing along that...

The commeon critique is, "But I want to stay pure class."

Some don't want to make an upgrade to the PrC, but want a benefit of something extra to the oompf on top of a Past Life Feat (which is mostly useless other than tagging you for what you could qualify under this suggested system) or the extra build points for each True Reincarnation.

The only thing I have to offer at the moment is much like a "Ultimate Pure Race ie The Paragon" would be the "Paragon Class." Some of these things are so similar to PrCs though... for example, Archmagi, Mage of the Order, Blademaster, Gladiator, Swashbuckler, Invisible Blade, Bladesinger, Duelist, etc. They are in reality "Paragon Wiz," "Paragon Sorc," "Paragon Fighter," "Paragon Fighter," "Paragon Rogue," "Paragon Rogue," "Paragon Bard," "Paragon Ranger."

I'm just not familiar with "Ultimate" names of Clerics, Rangers (mostly), and Monks. If I could offer a "Pure Cleric Paragon Name," I would. That could alleviate the issue slightly of Enhanced PrE for Same Class issue. Basically, if you want access to Enhanced Prestige Enhancements, you would have to pick the Paragon Class (like Swashbuckler), but it would be pretty similar to your Rogue: Acrobat PrE you initially had with some added flare in the Swashbuckler realm. So if we could name a Cleric: Any - Cleric: Paragon Name Here, it should be relatively similar to the original Cleric 20 with the added flare of the Paragon Class.

And then you have the off-the-wall stuff -- like Mystic Theurge. This is more like a Favored Soul -- a PrC of itself that is completely new and has no direct relation to its origins other than it has some Cleric tendencies, some Sorc tendencies, etc. For obvious reasons, I can't really give Favored Soul a PrC upgrade at this time -- it's not a base class. It's also a "You buy it or you earn it through 2500 favor," so it sort of is like unlocking the other PrC suggested by using the True Reincarnation process. And any Favored Soul that desires to Reincarnate still gains the additional build points. Maybe Turbine could simply give the Favored Soul Class a "Paragon Favored Soul." This is the only thing I can think of to solve it. Maybe even a Three-Tier Favored Soul.

For Instance: Possible Favored Soul Reincarnation Progression (by name, no idea what they'd do for the abilities).

Favoured Soul
Reincarnate Soul
Ascended Soul

This would be taking the 3.5 mechanics, tweaking what it would be on paper, and then applying it to the game. Each one would be an upgraded Soul with some new Enhancements. The largest thing I can think of would be additional spellpoints in each version. Another thing might be a Perfected Soul +2 (+4) Feat granted in which the Favored Soul gains +2 to Charisma as a Reincarnate Soul and a +4 to Charisma as an Ascended Soul. It would basically be a living battery of energy -- which is what Ascension really is. If no other adjustments were made, that would be 200/400 SPs more on top of any other sort of tweaks (Additional Spells/Points) granted if the player maintained the same stats as the first Favored Soul. Of course they'll be 34/36 point versions, so they could gain more. An "Ascended Soul" with the proper gear at level 20 could Theoretically be shooting for SPs in the 5,000 range. Note I did not recommend in this to grant them additional damage capabilities, DCs, attack bonuses, etc. I think being the Energizer Bunny of Classes would be enough. Perhaps they could gain access to 1 Past Life Feat called "Transfer Energy" in which they can discharge 100 SPs at a time to a caster in party and reenergize them.



Added to the front page. Nice suggestion!

kist, you rock. i like it. +1 rep. i like the transfer idea especially, seeing as we dont have dv's to give. and with all that charisma....the whole thing is an awesome idea i would do for my fvs. i would reincarnate twice. no question about it.

Belwaar
10-12-2009, 02:58 PM
Killer ideas Kist, and I'm right there with ya! :D

It would be interesting how many different combinations of classes you could have in combination with PrC.

Going with what you've said already, mix Sorc, Wiz, then Sorc to get one PrC..but then stay pure with 3 Fighters for another PrC. (for example)

I think if something like this was implemented, you wouldn't see nearlly as many multiclassing as you do now. Well...maybe you would, but I think you'd see many people trying to stay pure for the sake of the PrC/End-game (truly) build.

And...if they somehow implemented this...no way in hell I would get anything done anymore...:D:p:D

Aesop
10-12-2009, 04:27 PM
ok these aren't prCs buthow about something along these lines


First Incarnation: Monk
Second Incarnation: Fighter
Third Incarnation: Sword Sage (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords)

First Incarnation: Favored Soul
Second Incarnation: Paladin
Third Incarnation: Crusader (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords)

First Incarnation: Fighter
Second Incarnation: Fighter
Third Incarnation: Warblade (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords)

First Incarnation: Rogue
Second Incarnation: Fighter
Third Incarnation: Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)

First Incarnation: Rogue
Second Incarnation: Wizard
Third Incarnation: Spell Thief (Complete Adventurer)

First Incarnation: Ranger
Second Incarnation: Rogue
Third Incarnation: Scout (Complete Adventurer)

First Incarnation: Wizard/Sorceror
Second Incarnation: Cleric/Favored Soul
Third Incarnation: Mystic Theurge

First Incarnation: Fighter
Second Incarnation: Sorceror
Third Incarnation: Dusk Blade (Players Handbook II)


First Incarnation: Fighter
Second Incarnation: Paladin
Third Incarnation: Knight (Players Handbook II)


Basically (other than the Mystic Theurge) opening up a new class in that third incarnation...

Aesop

Aesop
10-12-2009, 04:27 PM
Amen.

/seconded

binnsr
10-12-2009, 04:54 PM
First Incarnation: Rogue
Second Incarnation: Wizard
Third Incarnation: Spell Thief (Complete Adventurer)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a
Having a chance to turn incoming spells back on the mob caster would be seriously cool.
:cool:
Or stealing spell points from mobs.. even more fun :)

thegreatcthulhu
10-12-2009, 08:12 PM
Hmm, the this list of the "official" Prestiege classes for the 3.5 Eberron setting are surprisingly limited:

dragonmark heir
Dragonmark heirs have the ability to improve the dragonmarks they have manifested, as well as to develop additional abilities related to their dragonmarks.

Eldeen ranger
An Eldeen ranger learns special techniques and abilities that help him to fulfill the goal of his sect.

Exorcist of the Silver Flame
Exorcists of the Silver Flame lead the Church of the Silver Flame's efforts in combating extraplanar threats.

extreme explorer
The extreme explorer is the iconic action hero of Eberron.

heir of Siberys
The magic of a Siberys mark is undeniably powerful, and an heir of Siberys manifests one.

master inquisitive
The master inquisitive takes the art of investigation and deduction to the ultimate level, rising to the top of the field.

warforged juggernaut
As a machine of war, the juggernaut is among the best at dealing damage and sustaining punishment.


Given the fact that I found the above list on Wizard's website in the 3.5 ruleset archives, I do not think it is all encompassing.


--------------------


Yeah, I've musing along that...

The commeon critique is, "But I want to stay pure class."

Some don't want to make an upgrade to the PrC, but want a benefit of something extra to the oompf on top of a Past Life Feat (which is mostly useless other than tagging you for what you could qualify under this suggested system) or the extra build points for each True Reincarnation.

The only thing I have to offer at the moment is much like a "Ultimate Pure Race ie The Paragon" would be the "Paragon Class." Some of these things are so similar to PrCs though... for example, Archmagi, Mage of the Order, Blademaster, Gladiator, Swashbuckler, Invisible Blade, Bladesinger, Duelist, etc. They are in reality "Paragon Wiz," "Paragon Sorc," "Paragon Fighter," "Paragon Fighter," "Paragon Rogue," "Paragon Rogue," "Paragon Bard," "Paragon Ranger."



;_; Cthulhu is sad, you did not mention the Paragon Paladin.

But Cthulhu understands; the discussion is very exciting - I personally am trembling in excitement of the idea of being able to achieve a "Paragon" Paladin.

To add a further note of concern/thought on the matter of Paragons vs. PrCs

The prospective capabilities that one could achieve via a Paragon Path should entail feats and abilities that are very much so worth the sacrifice and stalwart reservation to not give into the temptation of making a multi-class / PrC character. Such an advantage can unfortunately cause one to feel the need to hamper certain Paragons or PrCs with the tired concept called "balancing".

However, balancing is not the only hindrance towards making a Paragon truly worth the sacrifice built into staying on a pure path; given the current capabilities each class can achieve right now via their PrEs and Capstones*, one could say that it would require stretching the imagination of the developers, in order to create something as exciting as a truly worthwhile Paragon Class.

That is why it would probably come down to having to make one of these three decisions:

- Don't bother working the Paragon Class into DDO:EU

or


- Make a feeble attempt to implement Paragon Classes; but they would only provide a "slightly-more-than-nominal" improvement over a regular/Resurrected pure character. I.E.

-Triple Enhancement points;
-ability to use high level equipment earlier;
-starting build of 40 points + being able to add a second or third layer of ability points.
.... Nothing too imaginative or crazy.

- To say hell with balancing and actually give someone the feeling of achievement and power they deserve via having stuck to the same class path THREE TIMES. I.E.

-A Paragon Fighter has "Epic Two-Handed Weapon Mastery", giving him an additional 4d20 epic roll on all 2 handed attacks; he also has "Epic Weapon Mastery", giving him an additional 2d10 epic roll on all 1 handed weapon attacks. They also receive triple the benefit from Constitution and Strength. Furthermore, a Paragon Fighter gains a passive inherent bonus to AC and Spell Resistance every level. Finally, the Paragon Fighter receives a DR/- bonus every level equal to: Constitution Mod + Character Level.

-A Paragon Rogue has "Impenetrable Stealth", in place of sneak; monsters cannot see the Rogue while he sneaks, regardless of whether the Rogue is actually attacking or if the monster can normally see invisible/sneaking characters. And the Rogue can also use Impenetrable Stealth to disappear when spotted. A Paragon Rogue also receives triple his base dexterity mod. Paragon Rogues also receive a +1 to base attack rating instead of their default base attack rating increment per level. Furthermore, Paragon Rogues can perform sneak attacks on even those who would normally be immune to sneak attacks. Finally, the Paragon Rogue's base skill mods are triple the number that which they would be normally.

-A Paragon Paladin gains access to all divine spells in addition to his own; he obtains an additional 100 + (wisdom mod * character level) SP per level, and also learns spells faster and can also prepare more spells than normal. Furthermore, the Paragon Paladin receives triple his base charisma mod, and his lay on hands now effects all party members (and undead enemies) within the reach of the Paladin's aura of good. The aura of good also provides triple that of its normal benefit. Last but not least, the Paragon Paladin has "Divine Weapon Mastery" - all of the Paladin's main-hand weapon attacks are converted to epic damage, regardless of enemy resistances and/or immunities.

.... Needless to say, those are most likely very ridiculous examples, but I think it proves the point - incentives anywhere near the likeness of the aforementioned would be plenty enough to justify someone's commitment to 2+ "lives" as the same class.

*Well, most Capstones. I think most, if not all, Rogue players probably would not agree with me if I were to say ALL of the Capstones..

TreknaQudane
10-12-2009, 08:36 PM
My take on a few of them


Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard: Any + Fighter: Kensai - Bladesinger
Sorc/Wiz: Any + Fighter/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue - Eldritch Knight
Rogue/Bard: Any - Duelist
Rogue: Acrobat - Rogue: Swashbuckler
Monk: Any + Wizard/Sorcerer - Enlightened Fist
Monk: Any + Cleric/FavorSoul - Sacred Fist
Rogue: Assassin + Monk/Fighter/Ranger: Any - Ninja

Solmage
10-12-2009, 11:40 PM
I agree the additional spell benefit would have to be capped (else why play Wiz) but this + an additional bonus to their Elements would make it appealing still, whereas the reverse choice would be Archmagi - Wizard-based PrC with additional spell slots, the entire spell list to pick from, and enhanced DCs.

EDIT: Updated Initial Suggestion. Refined List. Please continue to add suggestions to this as any see fit!

Archmage PrC allows you to create an electricity or acid firewall and scorching ray. Enough right there to compete with any sorc wanna be, specially if you give them enhancements that affect all their spells, and leave only sorcs with the element-specific ones.

Edit: PS In case it wasn't obvious, great idea. :)

manfredshw
10-13-2009, 02:38 AM
I don't like these ideas, all these messed up this game.
I just want to respec my old build, why would I make things complex.

zealous
10-13-2009, 04:29 AM
An interesting idea, and one that I like.

As an option, I think it would be nice to see, rather than the past life feats, would be to let characters take PrE's from their past lifes as a feat.
I.E. I have a 20 ranger with Tempest III and True Reincarnate him as a 20 Barbarian Frenzied Berzerker. As 3 of my feats, I could take Tempest I, Tempest II and Tempest III. If I then True Reincarnated as a 20 Paladin, I could use 6 of my 7 feats to pick up Both Frenzy III and Tempest III.. (or a combination of the two).

I can see a few builds being unbalanced, but the necessary expenditure of scarce feats should limit that somewhat.
Simply put, it would break the game.

There are classes that get plenty of feats and thus would become seriously overpowered.

Melee PrC enhancements are generally quite powerful, being able to fit 2-3 on reincarnated characters would make for a vast difference compared to non-reincarnated characters.

The d20 system doesn't allow for much power variation, few rpg systems do. Even small bonuses makes for a big difference. When you get a large enough difference between "haves" and "have-nots" you will get a situation where large parts of the content is trivialized for the "haves" and inaccessible for the "have-nots".

You basicly have to purposedly gimp yourself to get a challenge.


Take a look at AC for example, more or less you either grind and have it or you don't have it, two options. And for the top content it's nigh impossible to get worthwhile AC. Thus you might as well skip AC in most cases and AC could more or less be removed without any great impact.

If on the other hand the range of possible AC was way smaller there would be more variation, it would potentially be more useful, many options.

Sure some people like games like WoW when there's not that much of a choice for character specs. You can still have simplicity in DDO through templates and have complexity on top of that.

I think an interesting thing to look at is the initial PrCs compared to the latter ones. Lower tier bard/rogue PrCs doesn't really have a great impact on the major stats (AC/DPS etc.) yet they provide benefits that are orthogonal. Interesting, situationally good but not overpowering. Compare that to e.g. tempest I or kotc I-III.

Rogue sneak attack is imo a good example of how you can get orthogonality, it's very good but only as long as you don't have aggro. Plenty of ways to not have aggro, well...with Rad you kindof remove that except for reds+.

At the end of the day you need to ask yourself, do you get more joy out of thinking fast on the fly and being challenged?
Or do you get more joy out of perceived superiority to your peers?


It's kinda the same thing as blanket immunities and inflated mob stats. Sure it's more difficult, more demanding on character twink(=time spent ahead) but in reality it's easier.
If mobs hit through any AC and can oneshot you unless you have massive hp and at the same time have massive hp themselves as well as blanket immunities...well...then the only really viable thing to throw against them is massive hp melee dps. Standing still and holding down autoattack while pouring the healing in.

There are other games that do that as well or better than DDO already.

BlackRage
10-13-2009, 05:34 AM
Fighters get most of the benefits for 2 APs.

... and +14 levels :rolleyes:


Off to splash a little Fighter alacrity into my melee builds :eek:

barecm
10-13-2009, 07:59 AM
I will give you one thing, Kist, it definitely fits in with Turbine's motto:

Roll up more characters

and

Buy character slots.

While this would be a super uber grind fest, I have to say I like the concept.

You left out replay old, tired content so we can develop less and give you the illusion of "new" content.

BTW, this is a great idea and a win - win for players and Turbine.

transtemporal
10-13-2009, 08:35 PM
We've been considering allowing things like the Sorcerer: Arcane Prodigy feat to unlock Arcane Archer, but this is definitely an interesting thread.

So if you had arcane archer in a previous incarnation, you could take a feat to unlock it in a current one? And would you then have to obtain any required feats and enhancements required (with class requirements taken as given) to pick it up? Or would you be able to pick it up immediately?

TreknaQudane
10-14-2009, 12:18 AM
We've been considering allowing things like the Sorcerer: Arcane Prodigy feat to unlock Arcane Archer, but this is definitely an interesting thread.

That.. would be great :)

Being said.. the Bard and Wizard past life feats should also unlock it, unless the Sorc one is just because its close to Mental Toughness..

Just imagine, a 20 Fighter Kensai 3 Arcane Archer

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 12:23 AM
That.. would be great :)

Being said.. the Bard and Wizard past life feats should also unlock it, unless the Sorc one is just because its close to Mental Toughness..

Just imagine, a 20 Fighter Kensai 3 Arcane Archer

Don't want to imagine DDO where you have to build something you don't want first to cap and then re-roll it into what you do want. You should never have to level something to 20 in a class you don't want to get the class you do want to work well. :eek:

TreknaQudane
10-14-2009, 02:09 AM
Don't want to imagine DDO where you have to build something you don't want first to cap and then re-roll it into what you do want. You should never have to level something to 20 in a class you don't want to get the class you do want to work well. :eek:

Considering a pure fighter should never be an arcane archer, I don't see the point here.

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 04:46 AM
Considering a pure fighter should never be an arcane archer, I don't see the point here.

How about the fact that both a barb or fighter would be better if first rolled as a ranger then rezed. (providing its 1 min per level). But a ranger rerolled as a ranger does not gain much as he has that ability anyway cause hes a ranger...

transtemporal
10-14-2009, 05:23 PM
How about the fact that both a barb or fighter would be better if first rolled as a ranger then rezed. (providing its 1 min per level). But a ranger rerolled as a ranger does not gain much as he has that ability anyway cause hes a ranger...

Good point. If the current rein combinations can be expressed as:


1st class/1st class/1st class
1st class/1st class/2nd class
1st class/2nd class/1st class
1st class/2nd class/2nd class
1st class/2nd class/3rd class


Theres actually no reason to create a character with combinations 1-4 because you're essentially wasting a reincarnation. In the case of the first option, you're wasting two. Ouch. Not a great reward for essentially dedicating 60 levels to a single class.

Personally, I'd like to see the past life feat bonuses stack so there is a compelling reason to actually go rogue/rogue/rogue or rogue/rogue/ranger. Of course, the past life feats would have to be changed to be a stackable, rather than a static granted ability.

andreascott89
10-14-2009, 05:51 PM
The main problem I see with this is that it goes against the core (IMHO) reason for reincarnation...i.e respec to fix previous bad decisions.

With the proposed reincarnation options, essentially any character flaw can be fixed with reincarnation assuming you work hard enough at it.

The consistent complaint that I got "screwed by new rules" is overcome. Took a 3 level splash before knowing about PREs? I can fix that. Leveled up a 28 pointer that you want to keep? I can fix that. Allocate build or skill points woefully suboptimal given current content? I can fix that.

This proposal now creates new preconditions that cannot be "fixed"

Current class is Sorcerer, but what you really want is wiz + rogue that ends in Sorcerer? Too bad. I got "screwed by the new rules!"

JS

transtemporal
10-14-2009, 05:58 PM
Just thinking about it, I think theres a couple of different ideas in this thread:

1) Using past reincarnations to unlock new PrEs; e.g. like the defiler20/psionicist20/dragon10, for anyone who remembers Darksun :)
2) Using past reincarnations to unlock existing PrEs, maybe by taking a feat; e.g. arcane prodigy feat to unlock arcane archer on a sorc

Point 1 opens an entirely new vista for builds. Huge potential. Lots of work. :)

Point 2 requires some very careful thought. Assuming that you would still need the prerequisite feats and enhancements, is it gamebreaking for a ftr20 to be able to get tempest III AND ftr capstone? Likely the feat and enhancement cost of tempest III would preclude them taking kensai or stalwart defender, but still...

On the other hand, point 2 leverages the existing PrE options really well and opens up a lot of build possibilities, but as I said, requires some careful thought.

Hafeal
10-14-2009, 05:58 PM
As stated by MadFloyd and Tolero in another thread, True Res is not meant to be a fix for prior bad multi-classing decisions. True Res was apparently meant for something different, however, by rolling it out with the other versions, it has been incorrectly viewed as a respec mechanism.

In that context, I think Kist's suggestion deserves merit and consideration.


The main problem I see with this is that it goes against the core (IMHO) reason for reincarnation...i.e respec to fix previous bad decisions.

With the proposed reincarnation options, essentially any character flaw can be fixed with reincarnation assuming you work hard enough at it.

The consistent complaint that I got "screwed by new rules" is overcome. Took a 3 level splash before knowing about PREs? I can fix that. Leveled up a 28 pointer that you want to keep? I can fix that. Allocate build or skill points woefully suboptimal given current content? I can fix that.

This proposal now creates new preconditions that cannot be "fixed"

Current class is Sorcerer, but what you really want is wiz + rogue that ends in Sorcerer? Too bad. I got "screwed by the new rules!"

JS

transtemporal
10-14-2009, 07:16 PM
The main problem I see with this is that it goes against the core (IMHO) reason for reincarnation...i.e respec to fix previous bad decisions.

I would argue that respec is not the primary purpose of true reincarnation. Most people wanted to respec an existing broken toon's class levels/race/stats and keep it at the same level. Instead, we got a system where you're required to level that broken toon to 20, then restart the character at 1. I don't remember anyone making that suggestion.

I still think True Reincarnation is an pretty interesting option but respec is purely coincedental.

Kistilan
10-14-2009, 08:07 PM
This proposal now creates new preconditions that cannot be "fixed"

Current class is Sorcerer, but what you really want is wiz + rogue that ends in Sorcerer? Too bad. I got "screwed by the new rules!"

JS

This proposal (the thing I stated) has nothing to do with Wiz + Rogue = Sorc. That is counter-intuitive to the PrCs listed on the first page.

I see what you're getting at as a complaint against TR's Past Life Feats. My proposal has given the entire TR a (hopefully-implemented) different reason entirely for following in which you will still gain access to a very powerful Sorc Class should you True Reincarnate.

Kistilan
10-16-2009, 04:23 PM
In that context, I think Kist's suggestion deserves merit and consideration.

Thanks to you and everyone else that is commenting on this idea. I appreciate the serious feedback and consideration.

Also, please refer back to the original post (A-1 Baby!) -- MORE PrCs/Past Life Feat Unlocks have come out of the suggestions as well as a consolidated PrC list from suggestions by others such as Aesop and Tak. I didn't include EVERY suggestion, but darn near every one (that was intuitive and seemed logical). The list is long -- I would be happy with a quarter of them debuting if Turbine were to implement this suggestion.

Spottmesser
10-18-2009, 12:59 AM
I don't think this is likely to happen. It would be a fair amount of work to come up with and balance all the classes, and a very small percentage of the population would actually use them. With the larger and larger exp penalties id be shocked if more than a couple people actually true res twice.

I think this has more potential being added as something you can do with multiclassing. 6sorc +6fighter makes eldritch knight available. 6 wizard +6 sorc = one of those casting classes (add modifiers to make it viable?)

Most builds ive seen seem to be 90% one class with a splash of another. Which is kinda necessary if you want to get prestige enhancements, or a capstone. This could open up the door to a variety of more varied builds.

bobbryan2
10-18-2009, 02:26 AM
As stated by MadFloyd and Tolero in another thread, True Res is not meant to be a fix for prior bad multi-classing decisions. True Res was apparently meant for something different, however, by rolling it out with the other versions, it has been incorrectly viewed as a respec mechanism.

In that context, I think Kist's suggestion deserves merit and consideration.

Not that I don't like Kist's idea... because it deserves some thought.

But saying that because True Reincarnation wasn't meant to fix prior bad multi-classing decisions is absolutely, positively NOT the same thing as saying it's ok that it creates a problem just as bad.

Your 20th wizard might be a fine wizard... but to be the best wizard he could be... he should have actually been a fighter. That's not a prior bad multi-class decision, that's an entirely different beast.

Mjesko
10-18-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't think this is likely to happen. It would be a fair amount of work to come up with and balance all the classes, and a very small percentage of the population would actually use them. With the larger and larger exp penalties id be shocked if more than a couple people actually true res twice.

I think this has more potential being added as something you can do with multiclassing. 6sorc +6fighter makes eldritch knight available. 6 wizard +6 sorc = one of those casting classes (add modifiers to make it viable?)


Yep i think this is the best way to implement the suggestion of this thread, because it would make multiclassing much more useful and you can actually play what you want and you are not forced to play a fighter because you want to be a powerful wizard.

QuantumFX
10-20-2009, 10:19 PM
We've been considering allowing things like the Sorcerer: Arcane Prodigy feat to unlock Arcane Archer

Since Whirling Steel Strike will never make it into gameā€¦

Make it so!
http://old-wizard.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/292px-picard2379.jpg

redoubt
10-21-2009, 12:43 PM
I'd like to see some paths for staying the same as well. I'm not real versed in pnp (or at all for that matter, so I'm not sure if this fits with pre's.)

Anyway, stuff like:

Arcane - arcane (any combo) gives access to +1 DC or 10% damage or ...

Arcane -arcane - arcane (any combo) gives access to the same list a second time. Not sure if stacking would be good, that might be too powerful. Alternately, for example, if someone wanted to take +1 to DC twice, the first could apply at level 1 and the second not until level 10. I can see +2 to DC at low level being grossly overpowered. Same concept for plus to damage or the other cool ideas we come up with.

Similar idea for other classes.

Rogue - rogue might choose from +1 to all skills,+3 to one skill, +1d6 sneak attack, faster sneak +10% etc

Aesop
10-21-2009, 03:21 PM
I'd like to see some paths for staying the same as well. I'm not real versed in pnp (or at all for that matter, so I'm not sure if this fits with pre's.)

Anyway, stuff like:

Arcane - arcane (any combo) gives access to +1 DC or 10% damage or ...

Arcane -arcane - arcane (any combo) gives access to the same list a second time. Not sure if stacking would be good, that might be too powerful. Alternately, for example, if someone wanted to take +1 to DC twice, the first could apply at level 1 and the second not until level 10. I can see +2 to DC at low level being grossly overpowered. Same concept for plus to damage or the other cool ideas we come up with.

Similar idea for other classes.

Rogue - rogue might choose from +1 to all skills,+3 to one skill, +1d6 sneak attack, faster sneak +10% etc

Thats more along the lines of the Past Life Feats ... or at least what they should be

Aesop

andreascott89
10-21-2009, 03:32 PM
Not that I don't like Kist's idea... because it deserves some thought.

But saying that because True Reincarnation wasn't meant to fix prior bad multi-classing decisions is absolutely, positively NOT the same thing as saying it's ok that it creates a problem just as bad.

Your 20th wizard might be a fine wizard... but to be the best wizard he could be... he should have actually been a fighter. That's not a prior bad multi-class decision, that's an entirely different beast.

You said it better than I did.

Thanks,

JS

FoggyKnight
10-27-2009, 09:36 PM
Love the idea, and it would definitely make it worth the endless path of grinding I see before me if I reincarnate more than once :S



Another reason for a true reincarnation would be the option to purchase base ability scores of 19 and 20:
19: 19 points
20: 22 points

Um, if the purchasing ability scores proceeds by example from the others (+2 pts to purchase 15/16, +3 for 17/18, then it should be 20 pts total to go from a score of 8 to a score of 19, and 34 to go to 22 points from 8.) Just a thought from a DnD'er with too much time on her hands. ;)

19: 20 points
20: 24 points
21: 29 points
22: 34 points to take a score from 8 to 22...
.
.
.
and so on and so forth.

Kistilan
11-13-2009, 09:54 AM
*coughs* Prestige Classes.... *coughs*

Ahem... Sorry, I was busy reading about Zerging... :o

So, what were you saying about Update 5 containing PrC options after True Reincarnation? :D

Mylon
11-13-2009, 09:56 PM
I disagree with this idea mostly on one premise: It locks out content behind a large grind. Right now, TR is a nice bonus for replaying content. It's not required, it's not anything that's really "cool" (but in many cases still useful), but a small way of saying, "Thanks for enjoying our game so much!"

Or for people like me, it removes the ceiling and gives us something to aspire to. :) Again, you're not gimped if you don't have it.

These PRCs are a nice idea, but they should be available to everyone on a first time play through. If you don't feel motivated enough to reincarnate, then don't!

Kistilan
11-14-2009, 03:04 PM
I disagree with this idea mostly on one premise: It locks out content behind a large grind. Right now, TR is a nice bonus for replaying content. It's not required, it's not anything that's really "cool" (but in many cases still useful), but a small way of saying, "Thanks for enjoying our game so much!"

Or for people like me, it removes the ceiling and gives us something to aspire to. :) Again, you're not gimped if you don't have it.

These PRCs are a nice idea, but they should be available to everyone on a first time play through. If you don't feel motivated enough to reincarnate, then don't!


Turbine will likely allow you to buy open a PrC on a character for 1495 TP if you don't feel like "grinding" -- IF they utilize some form of this idea.

Personally, I like the idea that my 2 main characters could be replayed and replayed into new alterations that are normally unavailable. It would give me a reason to replay a lot of content and my raid loot I've collected over the years would become a huge factor in what choices I make for my second and third reincarnations to a finalized PrC.