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GhostNull
10-09-2009, 04:01 PM
Making this thread in hope that others will come here and post their thoughts on the "Past Life" feats. This could also help the developers read feedback and suggestions instead of trying to read through the growing pit that is the True Reincarnation thread.

For starters, here's a couple posts that were made that have little feedback and suggestions...




Correct, you gain the Past Life of your dominant class. If you True Reincarnate again, you keep your old Past Life feat from your first incarnation, and add a second from your dominant class from this life (if it was different).

Here's the current list of Past Life feats:

Past Life: Berserker's Fury
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest. Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your rage will last for 30 seconds.
Just weak, 30 secs really?

Past Life: Bardic Dilettante
You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.
Not bad, like having a bard level 1 around on shrines, questions, does stack with a bard inspire courage?

Past Life: Initiate of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a cleric. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can produce a Healing Word effect three times per rest. Positive energy is channeled to heal light wounds of your target or damage undead for 1d4 hit points plus an additional 1d4 per two caster levels. Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.
Hmm... a CMW wand does more and cost LESS than a feat!

Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
You recall more about your past life as a favored soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect five times per rest. Activate this favored soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half.
not game breaking, just meh...

Past Life: Student of the Sword
You recall more about your past life as a fighter. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can remember your martial prowess three times per rest, increasing your base attack bonus to your level and granting +4 to hit.
It will depends how much it last, but 3 times per rest is just too few IMO

Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time.
Note: You must meet normal evasion requirements for this one. No medium or heavy armor, no heavy encumbrance.
ONCE per rest? how much does it last, 10 mins, 30 secs?

Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can recall your bravery three times per rest, casting the Lionheart spell on yourself or an ally. Activate this paladin ability to imbue yourself or a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.
not even a comment

Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can produce a Ram's Might effect once per rest. Activate this ranger ability to cause your hands increase in size, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.
again, one per rest; duration?

Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
You recall more about your past life as a rogue. You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels..
can you make this one instead like multishot?, you know, with a decent cooldown and some huge dps for short period of time?

Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest.
What would i want to spend a Mental toughness with another name that "can produce" random elemental effects? if this were free, I'll shut up

Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.
As bad as the cleric one, well, maybe not that bad.

Edit:

Caster Level is considered to be equal to your character level.


My two cents




Ok. The biggest flaw I can see in these is that they do nothing if you take the same class again. This is a pretty big thing, because the characters we have now, we have because we like them. No one in DDO rolled up a ranger because he wanted to reroll him into a melee wizard on down the road. Little surprised these were approved like this, but here are a couple suggestions:



Past Life: Berserker's Fury

You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest. Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your rage will last for 30 seconds.


So... no benefit to a barbarian? How about gives you the rage once/rest. If you already have rage as a class feat, it gives your rage an additional +2 str/con.




Past Life: Bardic Dilettante
You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.


Again... no use for bards. If you have Inspire Courage as a class feat, it will give you +1 damage.





Past Life: Initiate of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a cleric. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can produce a Healing Word effect three times per rest. Positive energy is channeled to heal light wounds of your target or damage undead for 1d4 hit points plus an additional 1d4 per two caster levels. Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.


This is at least... usable by clerics... but not useful. Maybe cure spells will give an additional +2 hit points when used?




Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
You recall more about your past life as a favored soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect five times per rest. Activate this favored soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half.


These types of abilities are rarely useful in DDO. I would nuke it from orbit and start over. Unless you just see a ton of Dragonmarked Dwarves running around.




Past Life: Student of the Sword
You recall more about your past life as a fighter. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can remember your martial prowess three times per rest, increasing your base attack bonus to your level and granting +4 to hit.


Awesome for arcanes and rogues, almost useless for fighters, barbs and rangers. This one misses the mark in a bad way.

+2-3% attack speed boost per times taken.




Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time.
Note: You must meet normal evasion requirements for this one. No medium or heavy armor, no heavy encumbrance.


Another one that is completely worthless if you keep the same class. How about adding, if you have evasion, this becomes a clickie of Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion, this becomes a clickie of Superior Evasion.

Superior Evasion allows you to have a chance to evade incoming melee damage for a short time. The DC is equal to the amount of incoming damage before damage reduction. If the feat is taken twice, it's equal to the amount of incoming damage after damage reduction (giving 20th monks an effective +10 to this roll)




Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can recall your bravery three times per rest, casting the Lionheart spell on yourself or an ally. Activate this paladin ability to imbue yourself or a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.


Blah... Be better if it was a divine might clickie. +2 divine damage on melee attacks or upgrading your existing divine might by +1-2.




Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can produce a Ram's Might effect once per rest. Activate this ranger ability to cause your hands increase in size, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.


Again... useless if you take Ranger again. Such a horrible theme. Don't even know what to do with it, but I'd lean towards +2% increase to dual wielding or ranged attack speed.




Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
You recall more about your past life as a rogue. You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels..


This one is actually cool for rogues to take again... just not twice. I'd probably just have the second one count for 50% over. So +15 sneak attack damage clickie instead of +10.




Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest.


Pretty Lame, and doesn't do a lot to entice Sorcerers to stay the faith. I would, instead, allow them to choose one of their level 1-3 spells to either use as a clickie 10/ a day in a future life... or let them keep an extra low level spell slot and use it off SP.




Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.


About as useless the sorcerer one without the passive SP bonus. The irony is that it doesn't even fit what wizards do best, versatility. It gives you a single spell. What about Past Life : Arcane Familiarity -- You recall more about your past life as a wizard giving you an almost intuitive feel for magic. You gain +10% spell casting speed.


So there's some suggestions, now let's see some more from other forum members. Some of mine...



Past Life: Berserker's Fury New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage twice per rest. Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your character also gains a passive DR 1/- at level 1 with an increase of 1 per 6 levels for a maximum of DR 4/-. Your rage will last for 24 seconds + 6 per character level. This rage ability acts aa Barbarian rage and will the block the character out of casting spells for the duration.

If you reincarnate into the Barbarian class, your character recieves a +2 to the Intimidate skill and the number of rages per rest will increase by 1. When using Rage, you gain an additional +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution, +1 Morale Bonus to Will saves and a -1 penalty to AC on top of other Rage abilities and enhancements.




Past Life: Soldier of the Faith New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill, and can Smite Evil three times per rest. Unlike a Paladin's Smite Evil where damage is based on the number levels of Paladin a character has, Smite Evil granted from Soldier of the Faith is based on total character level. Attack bonus based on Charisma modifier remains.

If the player decides to reincarnate into a Paladin, their Smite Evil will gain an extra damage bonus to Smite Evil. Half-character level will be additionally applied to the standard Paladin's Smite Evil damage bonus.




Past Life: Warrior of the Wild New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can choose a single Favored Enemy. Your character gains a +2 bonus to damage to their chosen Favored Enemy. This bonus increases by +1 per 6 levels.

Reincarnating into Ranger, Favored Enemy damage bonus is increased by +1 and gains an additional +1 bonus to damage every 5 levels. This bonus is applied to all the Ranger's Favored Enemies.




Past Life: Arcane Initiate New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and are more efficient with metamagics. Starting at level 1, your spell point cost through the use of metamagic feats is reduced by 1. Every 8 levels thereafter the reduction is increased by 1 for a total reduction of 3 spell points. This bonus stacks with other metamagic reductions.

Just some of my thoughts...

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-09-2009, 05:01 PM
Just want to point out...

The list of "Past Life Feats" that you have quoted from Eladrin above are FREE if you True Reincarnate. The "spending a feat" part, was for future 'additional abilities' to stack off the Past Life Feat.

So if you level a Sorc to 20, and True Reincarnate him, he basically gets Mental Toughness FOR FREE (as well as +2 Build Points).

Eladrin
10-09-2009, 05:09 PM
Just want to point out...

The list of "Past Life Feats" that you have quoted from Eladrin above are FREE if you True Reincarnate. The "spending a feat" part, was for future 'additional abilities' to stack off the Past Life Feat.

So if you level a Sorc to 20, and True Reincarnate him, he basically gets Mental Toughness FOR FREE (as well as +2 Build Points).
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

Fennario
10-09-2009, 05:19 PM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

Well that seems kind of lame. Some of them are kind of nice for a bit of flavor, but not worth spending a precious feat slot on them at all.

I mean who in there right mind would spend a feat to cast lionheart 3x a day???

These should be granted automatically I think.

DDO_Noob
10-09-2009, 05:24 PM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

Do they stack if you take them twice? So 20 random elemental damage spells if you are a sorc that reincarnated two times?

Aesop
10-09-2009, 05:24 PM
Just want to point out...

The list of "Past Life Feats" that you have quoted from Eladrin above are FREE if you True Reincarnate. The "spending a feat" part, was for future 'additional abilities' to stack off the Past Life Feat.

So if you level a Sorc to 20, and True Reincarnate him, he basically gets Mental Toughness FOR FREE (as well as +2 Build Points).

What happens to Multi Classes... do they get to choose, get them all or just get the highest level?

I think Eladrin just answered this


The rogue one is actually pretty awesome... maybe too awesome really...

I wouldn't mind seeing the Paladin one being a Smite Evil (1 that is not multiple) remember Smites regen

Aesop

Xaxx
10-09-2009, 05:30 PM
I like the reincarnation system except for this, these past life things are minor buffs, with only 1 or two being anywhere near feat worthy, and even then, the only one i think most would even look at is the wizzy one, and lets face it, its just another mental toughness...and how many people today use two feats on mental toughness as it is outside of a wizzy, these things should have either been the feart given at creation or made as a new teired ap. The amount of time that went into coding these (even if it was 5 minuites) doesnt even come close to being worth that investment for the amount of people who will actually take them as a feat.

Make them auto level 1 reincarnation, make them ap, or take them out, other then that, they're pretty well worthless.

DDO_Noob
10-09-2009, 05:34 PM
I mean who in there right mind would spend a feat to cast lionheart 3x a day???


I would reroll to 20 twice for this. That way I could hit my whole group with lionheart. The remove fear pots are WAY too expensive ;)

The_Ick
10-09-2009, 05:38 PM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

Most of my builds are feat challanged as it is. I don't really think any of these would be worth giving up a normal build feat for. Very lame.

Afterthought:
The more and more i read about this True Reincarnation the more and more I don't really think it will be used that much. Giving up all your XP, Tomes, and Favor for what essentially boils down to a +1 to a stat and a lame feat that takes the place of a feat you need just doesn't seem anywhere near worth it.

I understand the danger of unbalancing the game, but this really falls short Turbine. Either the cost of this "feature" needs to be drastically reduced or the value-add needs to be greatly increased. As is, giving up a feat on any of my toons for this would not be an advantage, let alone something I would spend Turbine points on.

Aesop
10-09-2009, 05:48 PM
Barb: I think a Single Extra Use of Rage would be good for this... another option would be to add a DR 1/- per 6 levels

Bard: Extra Song would be good and a +1 Morale Bonus to the effects of Songs per 6 levels ... so it would actually be useful to a Bard the Reincarnated into a Bard.

Cleric: Would be better if you could cast Cure light wounds and 20 SP and +5 per level like the Sorc

Druid: WOuld you hurry up and get druids out there :D

FvS: Add in a Resistance to Energy (ala the Rogue Enhancements) that stack with Resist Energy and it would be better... like +2 per 4-6 levels

Fighter: either or both +1 Weapon Damage and/or +1 Max Dex Bonus to Armor per 6 levels

Monk: Reduce Falling Damage and/or +1 Dodge per 6 level

Paladin: a Smite Evil based on Character level and a +1 Damage vs Evil Undead or Outsiders per 6 levels

Ranger: 1 favored Enemy and +1 extra vs it per 6 levels

Rogue:Ug nevermind I didn't realize it was a limited use per rest (with no time indication). Instead make it +1 to Attack Rolls and +2 to Damage for Sneak Attacks with it increasing by a like amount every 6 additional levels

Sorceror: 1 1st level spell and make the additional Spell points start at 30 and have Spell Point items have an increased effect (like x1.5)

Wizard: 1 1st level spell slot and a Spell Book. Spell points start at 20 and increase like ala Mental Toughness


possibly overpowered... but interesting at least.

I could see someone start off as a Paladin then Reincarnate as a Barb with Smite Evil.

Aesop

Nyvn
10-09-2009, 05:50 PM
The ranger looks best, as long as you are a non ranger melee with an extra feat to burn.. Hmm fighter past life ranger? 3 damage and 1 to hit for a clickie that lasts 20ish min at cap isn't too bad.

The sorc looks best for an arcane with extra feats, see wizard. Though I'm not sure why you'd reroll a sorc into a wizard?

RavenStormclaw
10-09-2009, 06:21 PM
Well reading over these the intial versions seem a littel weak but as Eladrin pointed out there are advanced feats/enhancements that could possible be better and worth it after all. The question is, of course, what are they? A list would be nice.

mediocresurgeon
10-09-2009, 06:57 PM
Copied from other thread:


A lot of these feats seem useless for people who True Respec back into the same class. Example: Barbarian14/fighter2 builds were great at one point. Now it's better to be a pure barbarian. If we only get access to one Past Life: feat per character class, it should be one that actually benefits the class. Keep in mind, these abilities cost you a feat, so they should be beneficial at all levels of gameplay.

To me, it would make sense that a highly trained person reincarnated as a highly trained person in the same profession would be better at what they do that the person who only spent one lifetime doing it. Many of the current Past Life feats do not reflect that.


Past Life: Berserker's Fury
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest. Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your rage will last for 30 seconds.


You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. When you benefit from the [I]Rage spell, you receive an additional +2 untyped bonus to Strength, but receive an additional -2 penalty to your armor class.
Most barbarians drink Rage potions, and most casters and bards cast Rage. A personal effect which adds +1 attack and +1 damage strikes me as beneficial, but not overpowered. This ability would benefit Barbarians and other classes equally, though classes which rely on armor class might not find the penalty worth the payoff.



Past Life: Bardic Dilettante
You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.


You recall more about your past life as a bard. Your Inspire Courage ability has an additional +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack roles and damage rolls before enhancements. If you do not have the ability to Inspire Courage, you can Inspire Courage as a first level bard three times per rest.
Character who True Respec into a bard probably will not receive the same degree of benefit of those who were a bard the first time around, but players who do are still rewarded.



Past Life: Initiate of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a cleric. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can produce a Healing Word effect three times per rest. Positive energy is channeled to heal light wounds of your target or damage undead for 1d4 hit points plus an additional 1d4 per two caster levels. Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.


You recall more about your past life as a cleric. Your caster level is increased by 2 when casting spells with the Conjuration (Healing) descriptor.
Okay, so I admit I took this feat right from a D&D book. But at least we know it is balanced and beneficial! Once again, clerics have a stacking benefit, and any class which can cast healing spells (bards, favored souls, paladins, rangers) will still receive a benefit.



Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
You recall more about your past life as a favored soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect five times per rest. Activate this favored soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half.


You recall more about your past life as a favored soul.
Wow. I really have no clue what to do about this one, since I do not really know what the signature ability of a Favored Soul is. I will skip it for now--I'm sure many readers have clever suggestions for this.



Past Life: Student of the Sword
You recall more about your past life as a fighter. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can remember your martial prowess three times per rest, increasing your base attack bonus to your level and granting +4 to hit.
This feat seems well-suited to its purpose, as it benefits both low level and high level play. Fighters who True Respec into Fighters still get a useful bonus while providing a similar bonus to other classes.



Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time.
Note: You must meet normal evasion requirements for this one. No medium or heavy armor, no heavy encumbrance.


You recall more about your past life as a monk. You are considered one size category larger for the purposes of your unarmed strike damage.
The current feat provides almost no benefit to a class which is already underpowered. This alternative feat gives them a useful alternative. Admittedly, my version does not strongly benefit characters of any other classes.



Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can recall your bravery three times per rest, casting the Lionheart spell on yourself or an ally. Activate this paladin ability to imbue yourself or a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.


You recall more about your past life as a paladin. Your Aura of Good provides an additional +1 bonus to Armor Class. If you do not have an Aura of Good, you now gain one.
Self-explainitory. Nobody cares about Lionheart because it does not scale well. An additional +1 AC is can be useful at all character levels and is not game breaking.



Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can produce a Ram's Might effect once per rest. Activate this ranger ability to cause your hands increase in size, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.


You recall more about your past life as a ranger. Pick an additional Favored Enemy.
Rangers get a slightly better benefit than other classes (since only they have access to enhancements which increase their Favored Enemy bonuses) but nearly any character gets a useful bonus to damage (+2 versus a single creature type).



Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
You recall more about your past life as a rogue. You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels.
This feat looks fine to me. Rogues get a slight bonus over other classes (since they have more skill points than other classes) but all classes can benefit with large short term boosts to damage.



Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest.


You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at each level.
Cut the ****. We want more SP, not some weak offensive ability. People build their characters around their offensive abilities and only use the most effective ones, so giving us another option will not help most characters. More spell points, on the other hand, allows for greater resource expenditure between shrines but does not actually increase the offensive capacity of the build. Casters and melee alike (well, bards, paladins, and rangers at least) all benefit from this ability. Yes, this is slightly more powerful than Mental Toughness, but it requires a lot more effort to get it.



Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.


You recall more about your past life as a wizard. Metamagic feats cost you 1 SP less to use.
Once again, a feat to increase mana potential. Even Rangers and Paladins will find this one useful.

sephiroth1084
10-09-2009, 07:44 PM
It's debatable whether even the strongest of these is worth a feat slot. I'd much rather see these equalized in power (whether up or down) and given for free.

Irrespective of any other changes, they should all scale up somehow with your level.

deadkitty
10-09-2009, 07:58 PM
Honestly i was stocked to hear about past life feats, but am disgusted with the outcome. Not one of these would be worth actually picking up on any of my builds and I'm sure the durations are not all that great either. Just give the reincarnated an extra feat from their past life *Excluding Class and race specific feats like Monk DR or evasion*. Say like a free feat of toughness or something. Or come up with something better than these... quite frankly they are all useless except in scenarios. I got to say this is as depressing as the Dragonmark feats *Minus the halfling healmark... but even that is still a waste of feats imo*. They need some serrious work to actually make up for their lack of usefullness.

Dylos_Moon
10-09-2009, 08:10 PM
I am also not entirely sold on spending feats for any of these especially on a character who would likely reincarnate into the same class (how likely is someone to reincarnate into a different class anyway, I mean you can only do it twice, and you likely already have raid gear at 20).

There is one thing I would like to add to this conversation.

Please for the love of all that is arcane, allow Past Life: Sorcerer, Past Life: Wizard, or Past Life: Bard to be prerequisites for arcane archer in substitution of mental toughness or the energy enhancements (thus allowing full class rogue, barbarian, or fighter to take arcane archer). At the very least Allow Past Life: Arcane Prodigy to be a prerequisite (you can take it even if you don't have spells right? and you use spell points for some arcane archer abilities, this feat gives you spell points, but no way to use them.)

mediocresurgeon
10-09-2009, 08:27 PM
Please for the love of all that is arcane, allow Past Life: Sorcerer, Past Life: Wizard, or Past Life: Bard to be prerequisites for arcane archer in substitution of mental toughness or the energy enhancements (thus allowing full class rogue, barbarian, or fighter to take arcane archer). At the very least Allow Past Life: Arcane Prodigy to be a prerequisite (you can take it even if you don't have spells right? and you use spell points for some arcane archer abilities, this feat gives you spell points, but no way to use them.)

That's a great idea! /seconded

Aesop
10-09-2009, 08:52 PM
I am also not entirely sold on spending feats for any of these especially on a character who would likely reincarnate into the same class (how likely is someone to reincarnate into a different class anyway, I mean you can only do it twice, and you likely already have raid gear at 20).

There is one thing I would like to add to this conversation.

Please for the love of all that is arcane, allow Past Life: Sorcerer, Past Life: Wizard, or Past Life: Bard to be prerequisites for arcane archer in substitution of mental toughness or the energy enhancements (thus allowing full class rogue, barbarian, or fighter to take arcane archer). At the very least Allow Past Life: Arcane Prodigy to be a prerequisite (you can take it even if you don't have spells right? and you use spell points for some arcane archer abilities, this feat gives you spell points, but no way to use them.)

I like it

Aesop

Depravity
10-09-2009, 09:01 PM
Suggestion: Skill Remembrance
You may take a past life feat allowing any one skill that was a class skill for a previous life (in the case of MC characters, majority level, as per Eladrin's post) to count as a class skill for your character. If taken after 1st level, any previous skill points spent as half ranks still count as half ranks (just to save devs time writing retcon code)

Gets you a clear benefit, although it is slanted towards rogue/bard previous lives.
Makes for some interesting build options, such as a full intimidate pure paladin.

I'd suggest that UMD not be included in this, as it has had a history of being treated differently from other skills to keep it from being too easily cranked up. UMD seems the most likely skill to create a "broken" build.

Aesop
10-09-2009, 09:04 PM
Suggestion: Skill Remembrance
You may take a past life feat allowing any one skill that was a class skill for a previous life (in the case of MC characters, majority level, as per Eladrin's post) to count as a class skill for your character. If taken after 1st level, any previous skill points spent as half ranks still count as half ranks (just to save devs time writing retcon code)

Gets you a clear benefit, although it is slanted towards rogue/bard previous lives.
Makes for some interesting build options, such as a full intimidate pure paladin.

I'd suggest that UMD not be included in this, as it has had a history of being treated differently from other skills to keep it from being too easily cranked up. UMD seems the most likely skill to create a "broken" build.

I like the idea. Diplomacy on a Pure Fighter Archer Character :)

dragonofsteel
10-09-2009, 11:41 PM
Really want a ranger with limit feats to spend another feat on that garbage, woot can cast spell for free once per rest. What a load of garbage. If going to cost me a feat it should be hell lot better then that. Some or alright but must or just garbage. So basically the ranger one only helps other classes to go ranger at first, though with limit feats ranger other classes get besides fighters get almost no advantage because the feats not that good. No way would change my current feats some builds besides fighter class because do not have any to spare. These feats need to either be free or change big time.

TrenchcoatJesus
10-10-2009, 01:22 AM
The post above sums up the largest problem of these feats: Fighters have plenty of room for extra feats, while few if any other builds do. They also tend to favor humans due to their bonus feat, which I am unsure is intended. Racial balance is a bit tougher, but class balance certainly shouldn't be that crippling to these feats.

The majority (but by no means all) of builds rely on three primary feat standbys: Two weapon fighting, Two handed fighting (aka melees) or Spellcasting (aka casters). Each of these has so many "must haves" that most of these feats are moot. To be honest, many of these feats fall short of dragonmarks - especially the halfling ones.

While I agree they can't be free without making True Reincarnation much more powerful, they need to be worth the feat investment. If anything, make them an improved version of an existing feat, allowing builds which choose that feat to gain a slight boost without trying to make them stand on their own. Trying for the latter is going to make them undesirable or simply too good to pass up, creating an unintended pressure on the "need" to True Reincarn (which it would seem you are trying to avoid).

As an example: Enraged Power Attack [Requires: Past Life: Barbarian, Str 13]
You recall some of your experiences as a barbarian. This feat functions in all ways as Power Attack, though the maximum base benefit may add up to 6 damage at the cost of 6 to hit. This feat counts as Power Attack for prerequisites. This feat's benefit will not stack with Power Attack.

Or how about: Masterful Dodge [Requires: Past Life: Monk, Dex 13]
You recall some of your experiences as a monk. You add a +2 dodge bonus to your AC. This functions in all ways as dodge and counts as dodge for all prerequisites. This feat's benefit will not stack with Dodge.

-TcJ

P.S. These shouldn't be that hard, maybe a wizard one for Extend Spell that uses 1 less base SP to use. Sorc same idea, but it affects Empower spell instead. Small changes that are neither completely free nor overshadow existing characters by a wide margin.

P.P.S. This is so ridiculously easy here are a few more:

Twin Weapon Fighting* [Requires: Past Life: Ranger, Dex 15]
You recall some of your experiences as a ranger. When fighting with two weapons, you attack 2% faster, in addition to all benefits conferred by Two weapon fighting. This functions in all ways as Two weapon fighting and counts as Two weapon fighting for all prerequisites. This feat's benefit will not stack with Two weapon fighting.

Improved Rapid Shot* [Requires: Past Life: Ranger, Dex 13, Point Blank Shot]
You recall some of your experiences as a ranger. When using ranged weapons, you attack 2% faster, in addition to the bonus speed Rapid Shot normally grants. This functions in all ways as Rapid Shot and counts as Rapid Shot for all prerequisites. This feat's benefit will not stack with Rapid Shot.

*At second level a ranger could choose one of these two which he gains access to as an automatic feat.

Master's Weapon Focus [Requires: Past Life: Fighter, Base Attack Bonus +1]
You recall some of your experiences as a fighter. When attacking with the selected weapon, you gain a +1 to confirm criticals and +1 to critical damage before multipliers. This stacks with all effects. You also gain +1 to hit as Weapon Focus. This feat counts as Weapon Focus for all prerequisites. This feat's benefit will not stack with Weapon Focus.


NOTE: All of these feats can be taken at level 1. This is both intentional and important: Chances are those who True Reincarn would like to start their second life immediately able to access this benefit and use it all the way to 20 again. This is not required, but it's an option.

Additionally, while I did not write it down here it's also possible to have a single and second tier of these feats - essentially doubling the benefit - if you take a class to 20 three times. I don't see any of these as game-breaking benefits, even if doubled, considering their costs. They certainly feel small enough to be along the same line of power as 2 more build points, while not engendering on feat territory too much. How the coding would go for these I am unsure, but I can't imagine it being too extra difficult to add duplicate feats and tweak them slightly. Just look at Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and Superior Weapon Focus. The only catch here might be feats which are in turn modified by enhancements, such as Enraged Power attack.

Bosco
10-10-2009, 03:10 AM
Since you actually gain in size how about making the ranger feat monkey grip so you can dual wield two handed weapons?

amyndris
10-10-2009, 04:21 AM
Trenchcoat brings up a good point.

The best of these feats is basically the Sorcerer ones because they are a "better version" of an existing feat. The Sorceror is basically Mental Toughness on steroids: 105 extra SP with 10 random casts of Elemental Damage spells.

I would love to see more Past Life Feats to work this way.

Barbarian: Gain Toughness Feat. Gain +10 HP
HP is a Barbarian Mainstay. +10 HP is a 1AP level 1 Enhancement.

Bard: Gain Force of Personality Feat. Gain +1 to all Charisma skill checks except for UMD.
Charisma is a Bard's calling card. I figure we can really sell this guy as a slick charismatic fellow. +1 to Diplomacy, Haggle, Perform, Imtimidate, and Bluff checks. This is 5APs worth of level 1 enhancements. And you don't get UMD, which is the one that everyone wants :)

Cleric: Gain Empower Healing Feat. Gain 5 uses of Cure Moderate Wounds.
Cleric is known for healing. 5 uses of CMW is effectively 16-26 hp healed averaging 21. Empowered, it heals another 10.5 hp for a total of 31.5. With 5 uses it heals averages 157.5 HP. Of course, this can get jacked up with Ardor and other heal enhancement abilities.

Favored Soul: Gain Empower Feat. All empowered spells do 3% more damage (calculated after the Empower).
Blade Barrier averages 48 damage/hit. Empowered it averages 72 damage/hit. With the bonus, it averages 74.16 damage a hit. Of course, you can stack Maximize and all that stuff with it to make the number bigger.

Fighter: Gain Weapon Focus Feat. Gain +1 damage to the chosen weapon type.
Fighters are the masters of their weapons! +1 damage is half of a level 4 feat (which is usually considered worse than the Weapon Focus Feat) and is important only as a stepping stone to Superior Weapon Focus and the Kensai PrC. Which you don't get with this ability.

Monk: Gain Dodge Feat. Gain +3 to Concentration.
Concentration is really something Monks rely on. +3 to concentration is a 6 point AP. But that's okay.

Paladin: Gain Luck of Heroes Feat. Gain +1 to Will Saves.
Paladins are known for their saves. +1 Will save is half of the Iron Will Feat.

Ranger: Gain Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. 3% attack speed boost while dual wielding.
Attack speed really is what Dual Wielding is about. 3% emphasizes that.

Rogue: Gain Weapon Finesse Feat. Gain +1 to saves/AC versus traps.
Rogues are known for being the "anti-trap". +1 versus saves is their Level 3 ability.

Sorcerer: Gain Mental Toughness Feat. Gain 10 uses of random elemental damage spells.
Yes this is the template that I am basing things off of.

Wizard: Gain Heighten Spell Feat. Heightened spells work at an additional +1 DC.
I really wanted to sell the "High DC" aspect of a Wizard versus the "Lots of SP" aspect of the Sorc.

All of these are 'upgraded' versions of existing feats that I think would make the flavor of each class really shine, yet not be overpowered.

KaKa
10-10-2009, 05:29 AM
The main thing in my opinion that needs to happen, if all past life feats should benefit a reincarnated character who reincarnates into the same class again, and should even provide a benefit if they do it twice into the same class.

sephiroth1084
10-10-2009, 07:17 AM
I am also not entirely sold on spending feats for any of these especially on a character who would likely reincarnate into the same class (how likely is someone to reincarnate into a different class anyway, I mean you can only do it twice, and you likely already have raid gear at 20).

There is one thing I would like to add to this conversation.

Please for the love of all that is arcane, allow Past Life: Sorcerer, Past Life: Wizard, or Past Life: Bard to be prerequisites for arcane archer in substitution of mental toughness or the energy enhancements (thus allowing full class rogue, barbarian, or fighter to take arcane archer). At the very least Allow Past Life: Arcane Prodigy to be a prerequisite (you can take it even if you don't have spells right? and you use spell points for some arcane archer abilities, this feat gives you spell points, but no way to use them.)


Suggestion: Skill Remembrance
You may take a past life feat allowing any one skill that was a class skill for a previous life (in the case of MC characters, majority level, as per Eladrin's post) to count as a class skill for your character. If taken after 1st level, any previous skill points spent as half ranks still count as half ranks (just to save devs time writing retcon code)

Gets you a clear benefit, although it is slanted towards rogue/bard previous lives.
Makes for some interesting build options, such as a full intimidate pure paladin.

I'd suggest that UMD not be included in this, as it has had a history of being treated differently from other skills to keep it from being too easily cranked up. UMD seems the most likely skill to create a "broken" build.

I like both of these ideas.

Perhaps our second life ability could instead be a selection of certain feats and/or enhancements from our original class?

Fighter could offer up Armor Mastery and Weapon Specialization (not Greater).
Paladin could offer up Lay on Hands and saves aura.
Rogue could offer up Faster Sneaking and Evasion.
Wizard could offer one bonus metamagic feat or efficient metamagic whatever.
etc...

I know that the above aren't consistently powerful from one to the next, but the intent is clear.

Perhaps! Label class features and enhancements in 2 tiers: the first, less powerful set, would be available upon reincarnating once. The second would be available if you reincarnate from the same class twice.

For example, Faster Sneaking might be a tier I ability and Evasion a tier II. So, a rogue 20 could respec to a fighter, and gain faster sneaking, or the rogue 20 could reincarnate to another rogue 20, and then reincarnate to a fighter with Evasion. This would be a true incentive to releveling a character a few times.

I'd personally like a combination of options, where a character could choose a class feat, enhancement line or skill (but only one of the 3) that carries over to the new character.

Jovial
10-10-2009, 12:03 PM
Didnt realize you needed to use a feat for these. *sigh..... I take back all previous positive feedback. This is just another fail.

storm357
10-10-2009, 03:20 PM
Have to say I agree with ^^^
None of these with the exception of the sorcerer upgraded MT are worth spending a feat on even for flavor guys. Think about how often these will get used even if they were free feats...then decide how much they would be worth it to the players if kept as non-free feats.
The value/demand ratio on them is a bit like offering snow cones at $10 a peice to the Antarctic research team ><

Amandris offers one of the best lists of past life feats and others have shown ideas that would be worth spending a feat on with out being over powered.

If you are looking to give us a solid reason to level capped toons all over again ( and keep paying/playing to do it), these ideas are the way to do so with out unbalancing the game. Feats that no one wants and will not use, are not.

Jefro
10-10-2009, 03:23 PM
wrong thread

binnsr
10-10-2009, 08:29 PM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).Well that seems kind of lame. Some of them are kind of nice for a bit of flavor, but not worth spending a precious feat slot on them at all.

I mean who in there right mind would spend a feat to cast lionheart 3x a day???

These should be granted automatically I think.

I couldn't agree more.

IMO, there needs to be a 4th tier to this reincarnation system -- one that lets you change class levels without requiring lvl20 or granting extra build points. Make us re-level the character, but without the XP penalty. Let us get 32 points on a 28-pointer without the bonus points. Or even give us a choice between the two when talking to the Reincarnation NPC.

Most players that I've talked to that are in favor of respecing want it to get rid of one or more levels of a certain class -- not just for skills or attributes or to change the character completely over to something else entirely.

BlackRage
10-11-2009, 08:05 AM
imo, There Needs To Be A 4th Tier To This Reincarnation System -- One That Lets You Change Class Levels without Requiring Lvl20 Or Granting Extra Build Points. Make Us Re-level The Character, But Without The Xp Penalty. Let Us Get 32 Points On A 28-pointer Without The Bonus Points. Or Even Give Us A Choice Between The Two When Talking To The Reincarnation Npc.

Most Players That I've Talked To That Are In Favor Of Respecing Want It To Get Rid Of One Or More Levels Of A Certain Class -- Not Just For Skills Or Attributes Or To Change The Character Completely Over To Something Else Entirely.

Qft

Mhykke
10-11-2009, 08:09 AM
The ranger looks best, as long as you are a non ranger melee with an extra feat to burn.. Hmm fighter past life ranger? 3 damage and 1 to hit for a clickie that lasts 20ish min at cap isn't too bad.


Don't be so sure about that.

The ranger past life feat turns out to be a 3 minute clicky.

Meh, not worth the feat for most.

Nyvn
10-11-2009, 08:46 AM
Don't be so sure about that.

The ranger past life feat turns out to be a 3 minute clicky.

Meh, not worth the feat for most.

3 Min? That definitly puts it in with the rest of them as *** were they thinking? If these were granted then ok, but burning a feat slot on these?

GhostNull
10-11-2009, 03:08 PM
3 Min? That definitly puts it in with the rest of them as *** were they thinking? If these were granted then ok, but burning a feat slot on these?

Now that some specifics are being learned, a lot more of these Past Life feats seem to be getting weaker. It's sad when some of the Dragonmarks are better than these feats especially when you have to reroll a level 20 character to get them!

With that in mind, please take the time to reconsider the Past Life feats, Devs. There's been some great suggestions thrown around. Past Life feats should capture some of the original flavor of the class the reincarnated character used to be. Past Life feats should grant some lesser bonuses if the player decides to reincarnate into the same class.



Past Life: Berserker's Fury New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage twice per rest. Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your character also gains a passive DR 1/- at level 1 with an increase of 1 per 6 levels for a maximum of DR 4/-. Your rage will last for 24 seconds + 6 per character level. This rage ability acts aa Barbarian rage and will the block the character out of casting spells for the duration.

If you reincarnate into the Barbarian class, your character recieves a +2 to the Intimidate skill and the number of rages per rest will increase by 1. When using Rage, you gain an additional +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution, +1 Morale Bonus to Will saves and a -1 penalty to AC on top of other Rage abilities and enhancements.

I liked Aesop's idea here, just expanded on it.



Past Life: Soldier of the Faith New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill, and can Smite Evil three times per rest. Unlike a Paladin's Smite Evil where damage is based on the number levels of Paladin a character has, Smite Evil granted from Soldier of the Faith is based on total character level. Attack bonus based on Charisma modifier remains.

If the player decides to reincarnate into a Paladin, their Smite Evil will gain an extra damage bonus to Smite Evil. Half-character level will be additionally applied to the standard Paladin's Smite Evil damage bonus.

This one needed some work. The bonus to Diplomacy isn't better than the bonus to the Heal skill, I know.



Past Life: Warrior of the Wild New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can choose a single Favored Enemy. Your character gains a +2 bonus to damage to their chosen Favored Enemy. This bonus increases by +1 per 6 levels.

Reincarnating into Ranger, Favored Enemy damage bonus is increased by +1 and gains an additional +1 bonus to damage every 5 levels. This bonus is applied to all the Ranger's Favored Enemies.

Favored Enemy fits better here



Past Life: Arcane Initiate New Proposal
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and are more efficient with metamagics. Starting at level 1, your spell point cost through the use of metamagic feats is reduced by 1. Every 8 levels thereafter the reduction is increased by 1 for a total reduction of 3 spell points. This bonus stacks with other metamagic reductions.

This might be too powerful, but Wizards do have less spell points and spend time studying the arcane arts...

That's all I have for now...

BlueBadger
10-11-2009, 08:06 PM
Eladrin, as many others have already said, these feats were reasonable when they were first presented as everyone assumed they were the free versions with them being the pre reqs for slightly more powerful versions that you could spend a feat slot on... if you expect anyone to spend feats on these, you're kidding yourself, as these are even less deserving then most of the dragon marks. I know options are good but when options only cause people to make bad decisions and make things worse, it's kind of wasted effort on Turbines part and doesn't nothing but reduce the quality of the game.

Honestly, very few of these feats seem game breaking as free addons for all that extra work. Obviously some are more powerful then others and other's are near useless and simply insulting. It would be very much worth while to reconsider working these in as the free feats and making them consistently acceptable. Even more so if you expect people, even if it's only a few people, to spend a feat on.

Mhykke
10-11-2009, 08:10 PM
3 Min? That definitly puts it in with the rest of them as *** were they thinking? If these were granted then ok, but burning a feat slot on these?

Actually, I have to doublecheck. I have to go back and check to see the levels I was looking at. It may increase a min. per level....

Tanka
10-11-2009, 09:01 PM
Self-explainitory. Nobody cares about Lionheart because it does not scale well. An additional +1 AC is can be useful at all character levels and is not game breaking.
LF1M Pal with Max AC Aura + PL: Pal to help MT.

Right.

Visty
10-12-2009, 09:01 AM
i got a question considering the sorc one:
that has as only perrequ that you have to be a sorc befor?
means even a pure fighter could take it?

if the answer to that is yes: does it qualify for arcane archer?

krud
10-12-2009, 09:53 AM
A repost from the repost thread :)

Past Life feat: Necrophobia - Your recollections of your most common past life experience has left you severely traumatized. You have a deep rooted fear of dark confined places, sharp pointy objects, and fire. Upon reaching a dungeon entrance you must make a DC40 will save or be paralyzed with fear. Failed save results in loss of feeling in your all of your limbs previously severed in a past life. This feat grants you the unlimited ability to cast Word of Recall. Characters paralyzed with fear may only enter a quest by having their soulstone transported in by a fellow party member.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-12-2009, 10:40 AM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

Wow! Eladrin, I am sorry to say that this is VERY disappointing. Most classes are so Feat-Starved that they wouldn't have room for these if they wanted. In PnP, these would be powerful, but as others here have stated, in DDO, almost all of them are VERY underpowered. The Sorcerer one is one of the only "decent" ones, and like other have said, if Past Life: Sorc/Bard/Wizard counted as the casting prerequisite for Arcane Archer, I could see that being used..

But seriously, I can see some Fighter, Ranger, and maybe Wizard builds using one of these.. but all the other builds are usually so full up on Feats, and none of these (other than Sorc) are worth a Feat slot. Really.

I was really hoping that this was the "free" part given for doing a True Reincarnation. I mean, yes we get +2 Build Points, but we also lose all Tomes, XP, and Favor. And this is the ONLY way you have given us to respec out a level (which I still think a respec for 1-2 level changes NEEDS to be implemented with less of a penalty than True Respec). I would think that for losing all your Favor, XP, and Tomes, and getting a higher XP curve to leveling, that +2 Build Points and a bonus "Past Life" Feat (for FREE) would be a worthwhile trade. I was honestly thinking about doing a True Respec on my pure Sorc simply for +2 Build Points and a "free" MT feat (not to fix anything, because he is built EXACTLY how I like him)... but without the Past Life feat, I am really having a hard time justifying ANY character to get the True Respec option.

Yes, I have characters that I messed up, and would love to fix (and I have rerolled too many to keep doing that).. .and the True Respec is a reroll but keep your Loot... If Greater Respec gave the option to change 1 level choice... I think that would work PERFECTLY. Purchase a Greater Respec and change 1 level choice other than your initial choice... shouldn't mess up any alignment restrictions, because you don't allow Level 1 to change. Heck, even if you have to, when you do the Greater Respec, show a list of the level progression, and make you choose the change up-front... I don't care. Just please, find some balance.

Synopsis:
1) Feat: Past Life should be free with True Respec
2) Add 1 Class change with a Greater Respec

zealous
10-12-2009, 10:43 AM
The post above sums up the largest problem of these feats: Fighters have plenty of room for extra feats, while few if any other builds do. They also tend to favor humans due to their bonus feat, which I am unsure is intended. Racial balance is a bit tougher, but class balance certainly shouldn't be that crippling to these feats.

The majority (but by no means all) of builds rely on three primary feat standbys: Two weapon fighting, Two handed fighting (aka melees) or Spellcasting (aka casters). Each of these has so many "must haves" that most of these feats are moot. To be honest, many of these feats fall short of dragonmarks - especially the halfling ones.

While I agree they can't be free without making True Reincarnation much more powerful, they need to be worth the feat investment. If anything, make them an improved version of an existing feat, allowing builds which choose that feat to gain a slight boost without trying to make them stand on their own. Trying for the latter is going to make them undesirable or simply too good to pass up, creating an unintended pressure on the "need" to True Reincarn (which it would seem you are trying to avoid).
...
Additionally, while I did not write it down here it's also possible to have a single and second tier of these feats - essentially doubling the benefit - if you take a class to 20 three times. I don't see any of these as game-breaking benefits, even if doubled, considering their costs. They certainly feel small enough to be along the same line of power as 2 more build points, while not engendering on feat territory too much. How the coding would go for these I am unsure, but I can't imagine it being too extra difficult to add duplicate feats and tweak them slightly. Just look at Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and Superior Weapon Focus. The only catch here might be feats which are in turn modified by enhancements, such as Enraged Power attack.

Amen.

Rhysem
10-13-2009, 05:08 PM
Really basic suggestion: the free versions of the past life feats should grant you a class skill that's "key" or "themed" to the past life class. Yes, I know, messy to implement possibly, but still. It'd give them a bit more flavor, and give something useful without being overpowering (as long as you don't do disable as the Rogue's skill pick).

Aesop
10-13-2009, 05:45 PM
Really basic suggestion: the free versions of the past life feats should grant you a class skill that's "key" or "themed" to the past life class. Yes, I know, messy to implement possibly, but still. It'd give them a bit more flavor, and give something useful without being overpowering (as long as you don't do disable as the Rogue's skill pick).

That would be kinda neat...

You'd also probably want to keep UMD off that list



or even if the Passive Free feat granted a +2 to a skill... without having to take a feat slot... the other abilities... of which after rereading I think only the Sorc one is really useful... could still use some work.

Aesop
10-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Past Life: Berserker's Fury
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest. Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your rage will last for 30 seconds.

Move: the +2 to Intimidate to the Free Feat

Make: the Rage Effect 30 sec +3 sec per level

Add: +1 HP per level and can access the Toughness Enhancements with this Feat








Past Life: Bardic Dilettante
You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.



Add: +2 Diplomacy to Free Feat

Make: The Inspire Courage grant an extra Song to Bards that take it or at least let it stack with a bards Inspire Courage ability... and just rename it Inspiring Chant and have it grant a Walk on the Sun kind of Bonus.




Past Life: Initiate of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a cleric. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can produce a Healing Word effect three times per rest. Positive energy is channeled to heal light wounds of your target or damage undead for 1d4 hit points plus an additional 1d4 per two caster levels. Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.

Move: +2 Heal to the Free Feat

Make: the Healing Effect do d6s instead of d4s

Increase: the uses per rest to 5

Let: this grat access to Conjuration Healing Wands



Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
You recall more about your past life as a favored soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect five times per rest. Activate this favored soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half.


Move: Diplomacy to Free Feat

Add: Energy Resistance 2 to all Energy types



Past Life: Student of the Sword
You recall more about your past life as a fighter. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can remember your martial prowess three times per rest, increasing your base attack bonus to your level and granting +4 to hit.

Move: Intimidate to Free Feat

Add: a Focus like effect that grants a +1 to hit with a weapon group



Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time.
Note: You must meet normal evasion requirements for this one. No medium or heavy armor, no heavy encumbrance.

Move: Concentration to Free Feat

Add: +2 Dodge Bonus to AC while Tumbling



Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can recall your bravery three times per rest, casting the Lionheart spell on yourself or an ally. Activate this paladin ability to imbue yourself or a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Change and Move: Heal to anything else... maybe Diplomacy... add to Free Feat

Remove: Lionheart thingy

Add: 1 Smite Evil



Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can produce a Ram's Might effect once per rest. Activate this ranger ability to cause your hands increase in size, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.
again, one per rest; duration?


Move: Spot to Free Feat

Change: Ram's Might to 1 Favored Enemy



Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
You recall more about your past life as a rogue. You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels..

Maybe: instead of a clicky ability just have it a flat +1 to Hit and +2 to SA Damage



Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest.


Add: +2 Concentration to Free Feat

Instead: of Random Elemental Spells give a Choice and make them alll look like Burning Hands... ala a Breathe Weapon



Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.

Move: Concentration to Free Feat


I don't know what else

Aesop

Velexia
10-13-2009, 06:23 PM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

Thus, even the nice Rogue and Sorcerer ones are essentially useless because they require a feat slot. I have no feat slots to spare on any character except my monk.

Some of these past life feats are so useless that taking Skill Focus: Listen would be less wasteful. If these are not free you might as well just remove them from the game, seriously. Isn't the true reincarnation itself enough of a punch in the face? I think the hit that a character takes for doing the true reincarnation is enough to justify a free special feat for each one.

Natashaelle
10-14-2009, 06:30 AM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them.

Which is unfairly advantageous to some character classes and disadvantageous to others. It will be relatively easier for a Fighter to take one of these ; relatively harder for a Ranger aiming to be Tempest or other builds with similar Feat prerequisites.

Both D&D 4E and Pathfinder have moved towards increasing the Feats per level ratio -- shouldn't DDO go down the same path ?

Natashaelle
10-14-2009, 06:37 AM
Just FYI there is a thread at the European forums asking whether Halfling size should be REDUCED after TR instead of increased :D

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=388620

Aesop
10-14-2009, 06:42 AM
ya know after reconsidering a few more times maybe more generalized Feats would be better.

Armsman: Your Past Life as a heavy combat character (Fighter/Pally/Barb) has been reflected in your current incarnation in your hardiness and martial prowess. You gain 1 extra hp per level and can choose a single Martial Weapon to be proficient with. If you are already Proficient with Martial Weapons you instead gain a +1 to hit with said Martial Weapon.


Jack of All Trades: Your Past Life as a skilled scout or tactician (Rogue/Bard/Ranger) has been reflected in your current incarnation through your cerebral ability. You gain +1 to all skills and have learned to stick sharp pointy things into soft squishy things that scream and bleed (+1 to Hit and +2 Dame with SA)


Magic in the Blood: Your Past Life etc etc (Sorceror/Wizard) etc etc. +10 SP at first level and +5 SP per level thereafter. Additionally you gain a Cantrip that does 1d4 force damage and an additional 1d4 damage per 3 character levels. This cantrip costs 5 SP to cast


Blessing of Divinity: blah blah (Cleric/Favored Soul) blah blah. +10 SP at first level and +5 SP per level thereafter. Additionally you gain an Orison that heals 1d4 damage and an additional 1d4 damage per 3 character levels. This orison costs 5 SP to cast


stick monk either in Martial or Skilled section and be done with it... stick those original Skill bonuses into the free feat if ya want

let the Magic in the blood count as the prereq for Arcane Archer

let the Martial one count as Toughness for the Enhancement

Aesop

FluffyCalico
10-14-2009, 06:47 AM
Suggestion: Skill Remembrance
You may take a past life feat allowing any one skill that was a class skill for a previous life (in the case of MC characters, majority level, as per Eladrin's post) to count as a class skill for your character. If taken after 1st level, any previous skill points spent as half ranks still count as half ranks (just to save devs time writing retcon code)

Gets you a clear benefit, although it is slanted towards rogue/bard previous lives.
Makes for some interesting build options, such as a full intimidate pure paladin.

I'd suggest that UMD not be included in this, as it has had a history of being treated differently from other skills to keep it from being too easily cranked up. UMD seems the most likely skill to create a "broken" build.

This does NOT solve the issue. It still ONLY gives people a reason to roll their character into SOMETHING else. We need something that lets people benifit who want to stay mostly the same thing and not change what they are entirely.

zealous
10-14-2009, 11:23 AM
ya know after reconsidering a few more times maybe more generalized Feats would be better.

Armsman: Your Past Life as a heavy combat character (Fighter/Pally/Barb) has been reflected in your current incarnation in your hardiness and martial prowess. You gain 1 extra hp per level and can choose a single Martial Weapon to be proficient with. If you are already Proficient with Martial Weapons you instead gain a +1 to hit with said Martial Weapon.


Jack of All Trades: Your Past Life as a skilled scout or tactician (Rogue/Bard/Ranger) has been reflected in your current incarnation through your cerebral ability. You gain +1 to all skills and have learned to stick sharp pointy things into soft squishy things that scream and bleed (+1 to Hit and +2 Dame with SA)


Magic in the Blood: Your Past Life etc etc (Sorceror/Wizard) etc etc. +10 SP at first level and +5 SP per level thereafter. Additionally you gain a Cantrip that does 1d4 force damage and an additional 1d4 damage per 3 character levels. This cantrip costs 5 SP to cast


Blessing of Divinity: blah blah (Cleric/Favored Soul) blah blah. +10 SP at first level and +5 SP per level thereafter. Additionally you gain an Orison that heals 1d4 damage and an additional 1d4 damage per 3 character levels. This orison costs 5 SP to cast


stick monk either in Martial or Skilled section and be done with it... stick those original Skill bonuses into the free feat if ya want

let the Magic in the blood count as the prereq for Arcane Archer

let the Martial one count as Toughness for the Enhancement
Aesop
Not overpowering but still neat. Think you could remove the SP cost on the cantrips though, I guess they would stack for multiple reincarnations?

6d4 for free would be approx cmw and 12d4 slightly better than csw, could be balanced with a increased cd though.

Samiusbot
10-14-2009, 02:44 PM
Would it be so hard to instead of a Magic Missile clicky. Leting us pick from all first level arcane spells?
Many spells would be better as clicky then Magic Missile. As a fighter it would be worth my wild to be a Wiz → fgt to have a shield clicky that was worth something!

Or better even give us a different tab for past life spell slots that we can scribe spells to and memorize spells from. It might be worth it to be a Wiz → Wiz → Wiz to have 7 first level spells.

And I can see other classes loving this idea also. In a past life I was a casting class and now I am casting class again, having options are good!

Aesop
10-14-2009, 04:32 PM
Not overpowering but still neat. Think you could remove the SP cost on the cantrips though, I guess they would stack for multiple reincarnations?

6d4 for free would be approx cmw and 12d4 slightly better than csw, could be balanced with a increased cd though.

well the SP requirements were there for those that went cleric and then say Fighter

what's the point of the SP if you have nothing to spend it on right ;)

Aesop

Duskslayer
10-28-2009, 10:30 PM
For multiclass players, please give people the CHOICE which past life to get.

People may wish to leave their past lives in the past....

BlackSteel
10-28-2009, 11:20 PM
how about slightly improved versions of already existing feats, that a person would take anyway even if they reincarnated into the same class?

barb could have an option to choose a Power attack that does -6/+6 instead of -5/+5

fighters could take weapon spec for +3 instead of +2(a fighter turned ranger would still have to take weapon focus, but the weapon spec would be available afterward) or have an improved combat expertise

sorc gets the improved mental toughness

wizards could get +3 from one of the spell pen feats or choose one school to get an additional DC when taking the mastery.

choose a favored enemy for rangers

well you get the idea

Ereshkigal
10-29-2009, 10:36 AM
Trenchcoat brings up a good point.

The best of these feats is basically the Sorcerer ones because they are a "better version" of an existing feat. The Sorceror is basically Mental Toughness on steroids: 105 extra SP with 10 random casts of Elemental Damage spells.

I would love to see more Past Life Feats to work this way.

Barbarian: Gain Toughness Feat. Gain +10 HP
HP is a Barbarian Mainstay. +10 HP is a 1AP level 1 Enhancement.

Bard: Gain Force of Personality Feat. Gain +1 to all Charisma skill checks except for UMD.
Charisma is a Bard's calling card. I figure we can really sell this guy as a slick charismatic fellow. +1 to Diplomacy, Haggle, Perform, Imtimidate, and Bluff checks. This is 5APs worth of level 1 enhancements. And you don't get UMD, which is the one that everyone wants :)

Cleric: Gain Empower Healing Feat. Gain 5 uses of Cure Moderate Wounds.
Cleric is known for healing. 5 uses of CMW is effectively 16-26 hp healed averaging 21. Empowered, it heals another 10.5 hp for a total of 31.5. With 5 uses it heals averages 157.5 HP. Of course, this can get jacked up with Ardor and other heal enhancement abilities.

Favored Soul: Gain Empower Feat. All empowered spells do 3% more damage (calculated after the Empower).
Blade Barrier averages 48 damage/hit. Empowered it averages 72 damage/hit. With the bonus, it averages 74.16 damage a hit. Of course, you can stack Maximize and all that stuff with it to make the number bigger.

Fighter: Gain Weapon Focus Feat. Gain +1 damage to the chosen weapon type.
Fighters are the masters of their weapons! +1 damage is half of a level 4 feat (which is usually considered worse than the Weapon Focus Feat) and is important only as a stepping stone to Superior Weapon Focus and the Kensai PrC. Which you don't get with this ability.

Monk: Gain Dodge Feat. Gain +3 to Concentration.
Concentration is really something Monks rely on. +3 to concentration is a 6 point AP. But that's okay.

Paladin: Gain Luck of Heroes Feat. Gain +1 to Will Saves.
Paladins are known for their saves. +1 Will save is half of the Iron Will Feat.

Ranger: Gain Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. 3% attack speed boost while dual wielding.
Attack speed really is what Dual Wielding is about. 3% emphasizes that.

Rogue: Gain Weapon Finesse Feat. Gain +1 to saves/AC versus traps.
Rogues are known for being the "anti-trap". +1 versus saves is their Level 3 ability.

Sorcerer: Gain Mental Toughness Feat. Gain 10 uses of random elemental damage spells.
Yes this is the template that I am basing things off of.

Wizard: Gain Heighten Spell Feat. Heightened spells work at an additional +1 DC.
I really wanted to sell the "High DC" aspect of a Wizard versus the "Lots of SP" aspect of the Sorc.

All of these are 'upgraded' versions of existing feats that I think would make the flavor of each class really shine, yet not be overpowered.

I like this idea. If possible having 2 or 3 choices per class would be even better, but this is already superior to the current plan imo.

assamite
10-29-2009, 03:32 PM
I'm just gona leave the devs alone with this one and run with my 36 points and ginormous dwarf :)

Eladrin
10-29-2009, 04:06 PM
We've made a number of changes to the Past Life feats based on feedback from this and the other threads. We're adding some stacking (up to three times) passive benefits to the "free" Past Life feats and made some modifications to the purchased ones.

We'll be sharing the new versions soon.

alcmaeon
10-29-2009, 04:12 PM
/sign me to the list of folks who won't spend a feat slot on these "bonus" past life feats if they go live as is. They read more like single enhancements, not feats.

Borror0
10-29-2009, 04:18 PM
We're adding some stacking (up to three times) passive benefits to the "free" Past Life feats and made some modifications to the purchased ones.
I don't see why you'd want them stacking at all...

bobbryan2
10-29-2009, 04:50 PM
I don't see why you'd want them stacking at all...

Uh... don't you?

There's no reason to take the same class over if they don't stack.

Borror0
10-29-2009, 04:59 PM
Uh... don't you?

There's no reason to take the same class over if they don't stack.
...and that is a problem because ______?

bobbryan2
10-29-2009, 05:12 PM
...and that is a problem because ______?

It's not obvious?

The path to being the best fighter shouldn't go through playing 2 other classes first. People that built fighters now likely wanted their characters to be fighters. A non-stacking system would mean that the best fighter should begin as a ranger, then play as a barbarian, then finish off as a fighter. And the people that already made fighters are already boned on having max specced fighters.

It's bad game design and counter-intuitive all in one.

Borror0
10-29-2009, 05:24 PM
It's not obvious?

The path to being the best fighter shouldn't go through playing 2 other classes first. People that built fighters now likely wanted their characters to be fighters. A non-stacking system would mean that the best fighter should begin as a ranger, then play as a barbarian, then finish off as a fighter. And the people that already made fighters are already boned on having max specced fighters.

It's bad game design and counter-intuitive all in one.
Well, with Eladrin's proposal, the best fighter would play this way:

3x barbarian
3x bard
3x cleric
3x favored soul
3x monk
3x ranger
3x rogue
3x sorcerer
3x wizard
3x fighter

Okay, well, probably that a few of those can be ignored on the principle that they are not helpful (like if the sorcerer one would offer spell points - your fighter does not need that) but you get the idea: not only are you encouraged you play classes you had no intention to play in the first place but you are encouraged to play each of those three times in total. Personally, I would only make one of those feats apply at a time.

I agree with the problem you present above but making it stacks three times makes it worse, not better.

Suggestion:
The first time you true reincarnate, you gain a bonus feat slot. That feat slot can only be used for a free past life feat. Each time you reincarnate, you meat the prerequisite to for your previous class' free past life feat. For example, a character that has been a fighter and a barbarian could pick either the fighter past life feat or the barbarian past life feat for his past life feat slot but not both. That feat could be swapped by talking to Fred.

EDIT: Alternatively, just scrap the concept of past life feat altogether.

Angelus_dead
10-29-2009, 05:34 PM
We've made a number of changes to the Past Life feats based on feedback from this and the other threads.
Repeating my hope that these things didn't take attention away from new specialty or capstone enhancements. Shintao, Warpriest, and Archmage were announced about 10 months ago, and it will look bad if a year passes without their arrival.

Cyr
10-29-2009, 05:48 PM
We've made a number of changes to the Past Life feats based on feedback from this and the other threads. We're adding some stacking (up to three times) passive benefits to the "free" Past Life feats and made some modifications to the purchased ones.

We'll be sharing the new versions soon.

Neat passive feat improvements are the way to go here. Otherwise the ones for purchase are really for feat heavy builds like mostly fighter builds.

Cyr
10-29-2009, 05:49 PM
Repeating my hope that these things didn't take attention away from new specialty or capstone enhancements. Shintao, Warpriest, and Archmage were announced about 10 months ago, and it will look bad if a year passes without their arrival.

I second this thought, but add it already looks bad that at least one full set of PrE's per class were not in EU at launch.

assamite
10-29-2009, 06:58 PM
Well, with Eladrin's proposal, the best fighter would play this way:

3x barbarian
3x bard
3x cleric
3x favored soul
3x monk
3x ranger
3x rogue
3x sorcerer
3x wizard
3x fighter


I thought we were only able to reincarnate 2x <.< making reincarnation have some build strategy to it. I dont see why 2 minor passive reincarnation feats stacking is such a big deal. We have epic quests we are going to start needing epic ability. Being against the progression of a character is being against the progression of this MMO. It is an MMO and development has to happen sometime if it wants to stay successful.

We the players need to play the game. And let the artist/developers at turbine progress their creation the way they see fit. If while you play the game you feel something is unbalanced give your input. If enough people agree then things might go your way. I just feel liek this game expands so slow because the players are so picky and are constantly contradicting one another. We really need to relax and just see where **** goes.

bobbryan2
10-29-2009, 07:01 PM
Well, with Eladrin's proposal, the best fighter would play this way:

3x barbarian
3x bard
3x cleric
3x favored soul
3x monk
3x ranger
3x rogue
3x sorcerer
3x wizard
3x fighter

Okay, well, probably that a few of those can be ignored on the principle that they are not helpful (like if the sorcerer one would offer spell points - your fighter does not need that) but you get the idea: not only are you encouraged you play classes you had no intention to play in the first place but you are encouraged to play each of those three times in total. Personally, I would only make one of those feats apply at a time.

I agree with the problem you present above but making it stacks three times makes it worse, not better.

Suggestion:
The first time you true reincarnate, you gain a bonus feat slot. That feat slot can only be used for a free past life feat. Each time you reincarnate, you meat the prerequisite to for your previous class' free past life feat. For example, a character that has been a fighter and a barbarian could pick either the fighter past life feat or the barbarian past life feat for his past life feat slot but not both. That feat could be swapped by talking to Fred.

EDIT: Alternatively, just scrap the concept of past life feat altogether.

Cap the past life feats at 2, and only take the previous two attempts.

Angelus_dead
10-29-2009, 07:22 PM
We have epic quests we are going to start needing epic ability. Being against the progression of a character is being against the progression of this MMO.
It's not a question like "Character progression YES/NO?"

It's about the kind of progression, and how well it integrates with the rest of the game, especially the existing progression system.

DDO already used level-advancement as the main path of progression, with gear acquisition as the crucial secondary. But level advancement is the only progression variable that the game uses as an input to determine if a character is appropriate for a certain quest. Are all level 20 paladins around the same power? What if one of them is a 28 point build, and the other is 36 point with multiple useful Past Life feats?

Exploring questions like that brings the conclusion that this is an ill-advised addition.

Borror0
10-29-2009, 07:26 PM
I thought we were only able to reincarnate 2x <.< making reincarnation have some build strategy to it.
No, we can reincarnate as many times as we want.

Being against the progression of a character is being against the progression of this MMO.
I am not against progression. I'm against a mechanic that I see as unfun.

Cap the past life feats at 2, and only take the previous two attempts.
The problem arises when/if you want to respec you past life feat selection. Then, you have to true reincarnate, again (which is not really a fun conclusion to reach considering the incredibly big it has). Though, I agree that it could be a good move to give characters two free past life feat slots instead of one as, like this, there is an incentive to play the same class twice. The drawback to this would be that it would that it would lead to a series of reincarnation to respec.

Though, to be honest, I think the whole idea of past life feats should be trashed.

I don't see how it can be fun at all or what kind of players it's supposed to appeal to. The constant rerollers, maybe? I don't get it.

tihocan
10-30-2009, 11:30 AM
I don't see why you'd want them stacking at all...
To give us an incentive to reincarnate multiple times, and play DDO more, so we can't have a real life too!

Max2000
10-31-2009, 01:38 AM
To give us an incentive to reincarnate multiple times, and play DDO more, so we can't have a real life too!

Well said, who needs real life when we can reincarnate!

Borror0
10-31-2009, 02:01 AM
To give us an incentive to reincarnate multiple times, and play DDO more, so we can't have a real life too!
I think it will have the opposite effect and makes us think about seeing that yellow orb in the sky...

honkuimushi
10-31-2009, 02:18 AM
I see 2 big problems with the Past Life feats. This revision may help, but I think it might need a little more work.

The first problem is that the Past Life feats provide little benefit to characters who reincarnate into the same class. Personally, If I'm going to play a character to 20 and reroll to make him more powerful, I generally like the character and will probably keep his build almost the same, just adding more stat points. Keeping bound loot also encourages this decision. But leveling to 20 twice in 2 different classes just to make a Fighter doesn't strike me as good design.

The second problem is that few characters have an extra feat or 2 for the past life feats. The idea of having a bonus feat slot just for Past Life feats is one idea. Another one I saw is to design the feats to be more powerful versions of regular feats that still meets all feat prereqs for that feat. So with Fighters, you may get a Weapon Focus that gives you an extra point of damage in addition to the +1 to hit. It would still work as a pre req for Weapon Specialization, but if you decided to change to a Warchanter, you could use the Fighter Past Life feat instead of the regular Weapon Focus. The Mental Toughness like feat is almost there, but it doesn't have the ability to substitute for Mental Toughness.

I prefer the second idea here, but it's a lot more work. Especially coming up with a thematically appropriate feat that will work for the original class and a few other classes as well.

bobbryan2
10-31-2009, 12:34 PM
We've made a number of changes to the Past Life feats based on feedback from this and the other threads. We're adding some stacking (up to three times) passive benefits to the "free" Past Life feats and made some modifications to the purchased ones.

We'll be sharing the new versions soon.

Share the new versions! I only saw a few on Lamannia, but you can't see 'em all unless you've reincarnated every class.

I know the sorcerer one was +20sp, +1 DC to evocation spells (passive)

The taken feat was +100 SP at 1st lvl, +50 SP every level thereafter, and the elemental damage clicky.

zealous
10-31-2009, 10:09 PM
Share the new versions! I only saw a few on Lamannia, but you can't see 'em all unless you've reincarnated every class.

I know the sorcerer one was +20sp, +1 DC to evocation spells (passive)

The taken feat was +100 SP at 1st lvl, +50 SP every level thereafter, and the elemental damage clicky.
Did you make a typo or am I correctly reading +1k sp for one, one feat?
And stacking spell focus for free, stackable up to 3 times?

[edit:]Judging by that I guess barbarians will get a "toughness" granting 10hp/level, fighters "weapon spec" for 20 damage and rogues a "sneak attack" feat for 10d6?

Borror0
10-31-2009, 10:18 PM
[edit:]Judging by that I guess barbarians will get a "toughness" granting 10hp/level, fighters "weapon spec" for 20 damage and rogues a "sneak attack" feat for 10d6?
From what the people on Lamannia told me, the barbarian one is a small rage-like clicky with tons of passive bonuses; the fighter one is increase MDB and Intimidate with a to-hit bonus clicky and the rogue one is a pretty overpowered bonus to sneak attack coupled with a bonus to skills.

bobbryan2
10-31-2009, 10:19 PM
Did you make a typo or am I correctly reading +1k sp for one, one feat?
And stacking spell focus for free, stackable up to 3 times?

[edit:]Judging by that I guess barbarians will get a "toughness" granting 10hp/level, fighters "weapon spec" for 20 damage and rogues a "sneak attack" feat for 10d6?

That's 550sp for a feat, yes, if I'm remembering correctly..

I think barbarians did have extra hp for their taken feat as well as a rage. Rogue taken feat was +5 to hit, +10 sneak attack damage on a clicky.

Borror0
10-31-2009, 10:23 PM
That's 550sp for a feat, yes, if I'm remembering correctly.
I think you mean 1050 SPs which is insanely a lot...

bobbryan2
10-31-2009, 10:47 PM
I think you mean 1050 SPs which is insanely a lot...

Wow... yeah. It is. Huh. I need to recheck that.

Favis
11-01-2009, 12:48 PM
Suggestion:
The first time you true reincarnate, you gain a bonus feat slot. That feat slot can only be used for a free past life feat. Each time you reincarnate, you meat the prerequisite to for your previous class' free past life feat. For example, a character that has been a fighter and a barbarian could pick either the fighter past life feat or the barbarian past life feat for his past life feat slot but not both.
I agree that you should be able to have choice a limed number of "free" passive bonuse base on you past life.
Getting the option to have 3*[number of classes] passiv bonus feels wrong.
Limiting the passive bonus to been taken from one (or two) class seams reasonble.
But as they have told they would stack 3 times I see two option:
a) you get 3 free past life feats each time you make a true incarnation after that you can respec out one of them. They can be in the same or diffrent classes. This 3 free past life feats are both pre-quest and give passive bonus.
b) you get access to a new free past life feats for each time you been a class (aka pre-quest feats). If you been it two times you get a upgraded version. (and even more upgrade 3rd time). And the you could choice wich of this you like to put in you past life feat (active slot).




Though, I agree that it could be a good move to give characters two free past life feat slots instead of one as, like this, there is an incentive to play the same class twice. The drawback to this would be that it would that it would lead to a series of reincarnation to respec.

Mylon
11-01-2009, 01:50 PM
I like the idea about being able to accumulate free passive bonuses. It makes it feel one can keep on advancing more and more. Reaching an advancement cap always feels disappointing because then it feels like... "Okay, what now?"

The downside I could see would be reincarnating and regretting a particular class choice.

Duskslayer
11-02-2009, 10:10 AM
No, we can reincarnate as many times as we want.

Though, to be honest, I think the whole idea of past life feats should be trashed.

I don't see how it can be fun at all or what kind of players it's supposed to appeal to. The constant rerollers, maybe? I don't get it.

It's called good BUSINESS sense (and poor development).

Already DDO is the MOST repetitive MMO out there: Grind Solo, Normal, Elite, Epic of the SAME "hand crafted" quest (and call it a "feature").

And now... since they cant even BOTHER to even add a SIMPLE text-string search to the AH in so many years... (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=208238) ....lets let the players RE-RUN the whole repeated content INFINITE times.... and call it a FEATURE!

We're merely guinea pigs running the hoop!

bobbryan2
11-02-2009, 10:20 AM
Wow... yeah. It is. Huh. I need to recheck that.

Ok.... back on there.

Passive Sorc - 20 spell points, +1 DC to evocation spells.
Taken Sorc - 10 spell points at first level, 5 at next level. Much much much different than 1000 sp. Somewhere i was getting an extra 0 in there, sorry.

Taken Wiz - +1 DC to all spells, magic missile clicky

Taken FvS - +2 diplo, searing orb clicky (little stupid still)

Taken Bard - +1 cha skills, +1 enchantment DCs, inspire courage 3x/day

Taken Barb - +1 HP/level, +2 intimidate, rage 1/day

Taken Monk - +2 concentration, unarmed damage one level above normal for you, evasion clicky

Taken Cleric - +2 heal, healing clicky 5x/day

Passive Rogue - +2 saves vs traps, +1 damage on sneak attacks
Taken Rogue - +1 all skills, clicky that gives +20 hide/move silent +5 to hit, +10 sneak attack damage at lvl 20 for 3x/day

Taken Paladin - +2 heal, divine favor 3x/day

Taken Fighter - +2 intimidate, +1 dex bonus to shield and armor, clicky giving full BAB and +4 to hit

Taken Ranger - +2 spot, barkskin 3x/day

Eladrin
11-02-2009, 11:35 AM
These are the current Past Life feats:

Passive Feats:
These are free, the feat tied to your dominant class is granted upon True Reincarnation.

Past Life: Barbarian
You were a barbarian in a past life. You occasionally find yourself filled with a nearly irresistable urge to smash boxes. With your head. Each time you acquire this feat you gain 10 additional hit points. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Bard
You were a bard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself humming a merry tune. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to saves vs. enchantments and illusions, and +1 Bardic Song usage. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Cleric
You were a cleric in a past life. You occasionally feel the presence of the divine. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Conjuration spells, +1 Turn Undead attempt per rest, and you Turn Undead as if you were two levels higher. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Favored Soul
You were a favored soul in a past life. You occasionally find yourself wishing to leap off of tall things. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to spell penetration checks and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Fighter
You were a fighter in a past life. You occasionally find yourself filled with the urge to bark orders to your fellows in combat. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to attack rolls and +1 to the DC's of your tactical feats. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Monk
You were a monk in a past life. You occasionally find yourself contemplating the mysteries of life. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to damage rolls. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Paladin
You were a paladin in a past life. You occasionally find yourself overcome with righteous fervor. Each time you acquire this feat you gain 5% more health when affecting by positive energy. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Ranger
You were a ranger in a past life. You occasionally find small animals in your backpack. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 damage with ranged weapons and +2 to elemental resistances. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Rogue
You were a rogue in a past life. You occasionally find yourself looking over your shoulder. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to saves vs. traps and deal +1 damage when sneak attacking. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Sorcerer
You were a sorcerer in a past life. You occasionally find yourself daydreaming of dragons. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Evocation spells and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Past Life: Wizard
You were a wizard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself desiring a good book. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to spell penetration checks and the DC's of wands you use. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Purchasable Feats:
All purchasable past life feats now have a minimum level of 3 to purchase and can be purchased once. These cost a feat, and all have a passive and an active component.

Past Life: Berserker's Fury
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You gain +1 hit point per character level, have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest. (Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your rage will last for 30 seconds.)

Past Life: Bardic Dilettante
You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills, +1 to the DC's of your Enchantment spells, and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. (Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.)

Past Life: Initiate of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a cleric. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can produce a Healing Word effect five times per rest. Positive energy is channeled to heal light wounds of your target or damage undead for 1d4 hit points plus an additional 1d4 per two caster levels. Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.

Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
You recall more about your past life as a favored soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect ten times per rest. (Activate this favored soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels.)

Past Life: Student of the Sword
You recall more about your past life as a fighter. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill, +1 to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus of armor and shields, and can remember your martial prowess three times per rest, increasing your base attack bonus to your level and granting +4 to hit.

Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill, deal increased unarmed damage (one step higher than normal on the unarmed combat chart), and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time. (When you make a successful Reflex save to avoid damage, you suffer no damage instead of half damage.)

Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can invoke Divine Favor upon yourself three times per rest. (Activate this paladin ability to call upon the strength and wisdom of a deity to grant a +1 luck bonus on weapon attack and damage. This bonus is increased by +1 for every 3 caster levels beyond level 3.)

Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can produce a Barkskin effect three times per rest. (Activate this ranger ability to toughen the skin of an ally, giving a +2 natural armor bonus to AC with an additional +1 bonus for every 3 caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.)

Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
You recall more about your past life as a rogue. You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels.

Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest. (Activate this sorcerer ability to blast a target with a ray of combined elements, doing 1d12 damage of a random elemental type plus an additional 1d12 per three caster levels on impact. A successful Reflex save reduce the damage by half.)

Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +1 to the DC's of spells you cast and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.

New Feat:
Completionist
Prereq: All passive Past Life feats. Minimum level 3.
You win DDO! You've leveled to 20 in every class, and for your effort can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more classes are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates.

BlackSteel
11-02-2009, 11:54 AM
Thank you for the list BTW, been skimming the forums past couple days just to catch this.

so the 'old' system had us capping at two true res's

original char -> 34 -> 36 points with two crappy past life feats

now we can do this as much as we would like? is there still an exp penalty involved? And how do the multiple rerolls look exp wise?

with stacking these passive feats up to 3x, having a 5%/10% cumulative penalty is going to be waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy to much.

Having no penalty, a 5% cumulative only for all subsequent rerolls, or a 5% noncumulative bonus for leveling in any class that you've leveled in previously seems like a much more forgiving system.

consider what it would take to level the same guy to max one passive bonus: 1x exp + 1.5x exp + 2x exp (rounding down) + 2x exp = 6.5 level 20 trips, with the blunt of it being end game focused

Tanka
11-02-2009, 12:02 PM
You weren't capped at 2 True Reincarnations with the "old" version, you just didn't get any benefit save for access to more Past Life feats. Seems it's the same now, only if you TR into all of the classes, you "win" at DDO (:rolleyes:).

Eladrin
11-02-2009, 12:10 PM
You will be able to True Reincarnate as many times as you desire, though you'll stop gaining additional ability points after the second.

The XP charts are tied to how many points your character is (drow count as 4 higher), so your third life and fiftieth have the same 36 point XP charts.

BlackSteel
11-02-2009, 12:17 PM
You will be able to True Reincarnate as many times as you desire, though you'll stop gaining additional ability points after the second.

The XP charts are tied to how many points your character is (drow count as 4 higher), so your third life and fiftieth have the same 36 point XP charts.

thank you

maddmatt70
11-02-2009, 12:26 PM
Just a suggestion that when somebody achieves completionist there should be something visual on the character or in their name. That is quite an accomplishment such that there should be a visual acknowledgement.

Angelus_dead
11-02-2009, 12:26 PM
These are the current Past Life feats:
Have you thought about publishing a short writeup on your motivations for these? Some other game designers do so, and it works well. (Motivations can be pretty well deduced in this case, but it would still be nice when an unusual decision comes out)

In particular, I'm curious if you looked at the result of the "AA" alternative advancement system added to Everquest a long time after publication...

Or how about why True Reincarnation is still conflated like this? Clearly it combines both respec and progressing: It's the only way to get 34 or 36 point builds and the only way to obtain bonuses from this new list... but it's also the only way to drop one sorc level from an existing cleric.

Angelus_dead
11-02-2009, 01:01 PM
Passive Feats:
These are free, the feat tied to your dominant class is granted upon True Reincarnation.
Most of the passive feats seem good enough to make True Reincarnate attractive for a substantial number of players, when the additional build points are also included.

The Cleric one would primarily be helpful to a divine-might melee cleric. Obviously the monk one is appealing to any combat character, while FVS is only for offensive casters.


Purchasable Feats:
[I]All purchasable past life feats now have a minimum level of 3 to purchase and can be purchased once. These cost a feat, and all have a passive and an active component.
So these seem rarely attractive for someone of the same class, and in fact remain often not worth a feat slot.

Barb: 30 sec of rage is still hard to justify the feat.

Bard: Better than SF Enchantment, which some rare characters do take anyhow.

Cleric: Heal skill = supremely useless. Clicky heals a total of 5*(2.5/2*level) = 6.25*level hp, or 125 at level 20. That's just slightly more than reading one Heal scroll, and that's worthless. At level 10 it would give 15 hp per casting... again, not worth a feat slot (even if it didn't require a reroll to qualify)

FVS: A feat on Dip is rarely ever desired. The clicky does 18 damage at level 10, or 32 at level 20. Times the uses is 180 or 320 damage per shrine. Assuming you're a caster and can add Max, Emp, and Potency, then it comes to a peak of 1200 damage at level 20, which might be enough to kill two trash mobs. A normal caster can output 1200 damage by spending under 200 spellpoints (or much much less if WOF is included).

Fighter: The stacking AC bonus makes it attractive to a lot of defensive-based fighters, and also serves to give S&B another advancement compared to robe-AC characters in a general sense. I can't picture any character spending the feat to use the clicky, considering that Boots of Divine Power 5x aren't hard to obtain.

Monk: Attractive to monks, really. Side question: Why not add Improved Unarmed Strike as a general feat? (I imagine the answer is going to be "Animation budget")

Paladin: The DF and Bark spells make more sense than the older choices, and DF is mildly attractive to melee characters. Indeed, its interesting to compare it to the Barb one. DF really comes off as the winner in that contest: in exchange for no constitution boost, it has triple the uses, probably longer duration, doesn't block casting, and doesn't fatigue you later.

Ranger: Much better thematically than the old ranger one... but still, I can't picture anyone spending a feat on something an actual ranger/druid can cast on other people, or which is available as a portable liquid. Suggestion: Manyshot 3x per rest.

Rogue: Value depends on the duration, but a temporary +10 SA damage is good. Very much worth a feat for fighters.

Sorc: Mental Toughness plus a damage clicky. I guess there are characters who train MT, so they'd prefer this instead. Damage ray seems mostly unhelpful, but there's no obvious path to make it useful and yet not imbalanced.

Wizard: Very good in comparison to the Spell Focus feats, which many characters (mainly wizards) already take.

Completion: Worth the feat slot, assuming you met the requirements.

GhostNull
11-02-2009, 01:09 PM
Thanks for posting these Eladrin, most of these Past Life feats are certainly better than what was proposed in the beginning. The passsive bonuses are interesting, though.

However as A_D mentioned above, Heal skill is useless and you've given that to the Cleric and Paladin Past Life feats. I'd say something simple as a single, extra use of Smite Evil for Soldier of the Faith instead of a +2 bonus to Heal would be far better and useful.

Angelus_dead
11-02-2009, 01:15 PM
Purchasable Feats:
[I]All purchasable past life feats now have a minimum level of 3 to purchase and can be purchased once. These cost a feat, and all have a passive and an active component.
Another persisting problem is that the purchasable feats are heavily biased towards the Fighter class, because pure Fighters are the only characters who already have feat slots that are already being mostly wasted. Any other character class has already had to make a real choice between multiple attractive feats. But since too many of the combat feats in DDO are unreasonably weak, Fighters have been left spending feats on tiny benefits.

I'm thinking about Imp Shield Bash, Great Cleave, Slicing Blow, Imp Sunder, and things like this. The ability to replace those weak feats with useful combat buffs will improve the power of the Fighter class more than it does other classes (assuming the players are all equally willing to relevel).

Vhlad
11-02-2009, 01:31 PM
Disappointed.

This game used to be about player skill. Now it's about player grind.

Now, to be the absolute best, you need to true reincarnate 32 times for a total bonus of:
+30hp, +6 saves vs enchantments/illusions, +3 spell DC to conjuration & evocation, +9 spell penetration, +120 spell points, +3 attack rolls, +3 damage rolls, another +6 damage for ranged weapons, +3 DC to tactical feats, +15% healing amplification, +6 stacking resistance to fire/sonic/electric/acid, +6 saves vs traps, +3 sneak attack damage, +2 to all skills, and +2 str, dex, con, int, wis, cha

My problem is, not being the absolute best is not fun. The knowledge that the character I am playing is not perfect makes playing that character less appealing. But the grind to make that character the best possible is not appealing. So I'm left with a choice: to play a character while a little voice in my head is constantly stabbing and poking me saying "you're not optimal!", or spend ~8 months (giving just 1 week per character cap) getting all the passives, to make just 1 character perfect (then I'm faced with a similar choice if I want to make my other characters perfect).

I've been an active subscriber for 3.5 years. This, along with redoing all the old content that I'm already tired of as epic with epic grind, will probably be the kind of thing that finally pushes me away.

Favis
11-02-2009, 01:47 PM
You will be able to True Reincarnate as many times as you desire, though.
So 33 resurections (3 times * 11 classes - taken in the right order) would be the maximum effect?

binnsr
11-02-2009, 01:50 PM
So 33 resurections (3 times * 11 classes - taken in the right order) would be the maximum effect?

yup..

+30 hitpoints (barby x3)
+6 saves vs enchantment/illusion (bard)
+3 Bardic Songs (bard)
+3 Conjuration DCs (cleric)
+3 Turn Undead Attempts (cleric)
+6 levels for TU attempts (cleric)
+3 Spell Pen (Favored Soul)
+60 spell points (Favored Soul)
+3 Attack (Fighter)
+3 Combat DCs (Fighter)
+3 Damage (Monk)
+15% healing bonus (paladin)
+6 ranged damage (ranger)
+6 Elemental Resists (ranger)
+6 to trap saves (rogue)
+3 SA damage (rogue)
+3 Evocation DC (sorcerer)
+60 spell points (sorcerer)
+6 Spell Pen (wizard)
+6 Wand DC (wizard)

Plus qualifying for the Completionist feat that would give you a stacking +2 to skills and abilities.

I expect that we'll see some overachiever with this done by Christmas.. :D

Favis
11-02-2009, 01:56 PM
This game used to be about player skill. Now it's about player grind.

People have grid for better items since the start (then they grid at Co6, taker it become all raides).



My problem is, not being the absolute best is not fun. The knowledge that the character I am playing is not perfect makes playing that character less appealing.

I understand that.
Personaly I'm not fund of repeting raides. So I have felt like this.

Personaly I much more like to play new caracters up to lvl cap.
So this form of repeting content (swiching classes and instances) are much more fun to me and don't feel like gridding (for me) like having to repeate a single raide over an over again with a single caracter.

To summary me like :)
Even if I realize that I will never ever do true reincarnation 33 times on one caracter =)

Angelus_dead
11-02-2009, 01:59 PM
My problem is, not being the absolute best is not fun. The knowledge that the character I am playing is not perfect makes playing that character less appealing. But the grind to make that character the best possible is not appealing.
It's important to point out that a long grind for a marginal benefit is not bad in itself. An 8+ month sequence to progress up there can be OK, especially since realistically you'd get most of the useful benefits very early in the process. But what makes the method under discussion here non-fun is that to work towards that objective, you'd have to be repeatedly de-powering your character back down to level 1 again, which seriously interferes with other enjoyable activities you'd like to perform in the game.

That's why it would be better, if effects like Past Life feats were being added as character progression options, that they not be tied into reincarnation so closely.

EDIT: To make it more clear, the problem with Past Life as a progression grind is that once you start it, you're locked out from participating in the other progression grinds: raid loot and epic tokens.

Tyrande
11-02-2009, 02:07 PM
[...]
The XP charts are tied to how many points your character is (drow count as 4 higher), so your third life and fiftieth have the same 36 point XP charts.

Are you saying that Drows will be harder to level with true incarnations since they are counting as four points higher? i.e. a regular 36 point build drow is actually 40 points in comparison to normal?

In that case, would you consider offering drows innate spell resistance like the monk without enhancement requirement? And of course -1 penalty to hit/damage in daylight.

Visty
11-02-2009, 02:13 PM
Are you saying that Drows will be harder to level with true incarnations since they are counting as four points higher? i.e. a regular 36 point build drow is actually 40 points in comparison to normal?

In that case, would you consider offering drows innate spell resistance like the monk without enhancement requirement? And of course -1 penalty to hit/damage in daylight.

drows dont count 4 points higher
they are 28pt and just dont have the 32pt flag

€: ok, my post is kinda stupid after thinking about it, but makes sense. they dont count as 4 points higher, just as 32pt. kinda what ahpook said under me

ahpook
11-02-2009, 02:22 PM
Are you saying that Drows will be harder to level with true incarnations since they are counting as four points higher? i.e. a regular 36 point build drow is actually 40 points in comparison to normal?

In that case, would you consider offering drows innate spell resistance like the monk without enhancement requirement? And of course -1 penalty to hit/damage in daylight.

No. He is saying that a 28 pt Drow counts as 32 pt character. The extra 2 pts you get from your TR is actually a 30 pt build but counts as a 34 for levelling penalty and the next extra 2 from the 2nd TR makes it count as a 36 pt build for levelling.

Absolute-Omniscience
11-02-2009, 03:48 PM
So in other words, to get an "ideal" Fighter type build you'll want:
On of each = 11
+
2 monk
2 fighter
2 rogue
2 ranger
2 Paladin
21 caps

Whereas 1 = normal, 1 = TR 1, 19 = TR 2.

= about
Normal: 2mil exp
TR 1: 3 mil exp
TR 2: 4mil * 19 = 76 mil exp

81 mil exp total

If you gain 500 exp per minute on your whole DDO play time (ie not slacking, you just keep questing, etc), it will take
81000000 / (500*60)=2700 HOURS of constant 500exp/min questing

That's
112 days
Or 3,7 months

Or, over half a year of constant 500 exp/min while playing 12 hours a day.

To give you an example. Currently having 16 caped characters (level 20 all) is about 32mil exp. The needed exp to finish ONE "ideal" takes about 3 times as long as to cap 16 20's.

bobbryan2
11-02-2009, 03:50 PM
Limit the passive past life feats at 2 and allow us to choose which 2 at character creation.

78mackson
11-02-2009, 04:00 PM
So in other words, to get an "ideal" Fighter type build you'll want:
On of each = 11
+
2 monk
2 fighter
2 rogue
2 ranger
2 Paladin
21 caps

Whereas 1 = normal, 1 = TR 1, 19 = TR 2.

= about
Normal: 2mil exp
TR 1: 3 mil exp
TR 2: 4mil * 19 = 76 mil exp

81 mil exp total

If you gain 500 exp per minute on your whole DDO play time (ie not slacking, you just keep questing, etc), it will take
81000000 / (500*60)=2700 HOURS of constant 500exp/min questing

That's
112 days
Or 3,7 months

Or, over half a year of constant 500 exp/min while playing 12 hours a day.

To give you an example. Currently having 16 caped characters (level 20 all) is about 32mil exp. The needed exp to finish ONE "ideal" takes about 3 times as long as to cap 16 20's.

will be kinda hard to discuss builds after that, heh?

kyebosh
11-02-2009, 04:09 PM
New Feat:
Completionist
Prereq: All passive Past Life feats. Minimum level 3.
You win DDO! You've leveled to 20 in every class, and for your effort can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more classes are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates.

Question:
Does this mean 20 is the cap for the future?
It would REALLY suck to spend 6-12 months doing this & then have the level cap raise to xx, noone wants to grind it all over again to cap each class. Just saying :)

Favis
11-02-2009, 04:28 PM
So in other words, to get an "ideal" Fighter type build you'll want:
On of each = 11
+
2 monk
2 fighter
2 rogue
2 ranger
2 Paladin
21 caps

Whereas 1 = normal, 1 = TR 1, 19 = TR 2.

= about
Normal: 2mil exp
TR 1: 3 mil exp
TR 2: 4mil * 19 = 76 mil exp

81 mil exp total

If you gain 500 exp per minute on your whole DDO play time (ie not slacking, you just keep questing, etc), it will take
81000000 / (500*60)=2700 HOURS of constant 500exp/min questing

That's
112 days
Or 3,7 months

Or, over half a year of constant 500 exp/min while playing 12 hours a day.

To give you an example. Currently having 16 caped characters (level 20 all) is about 32mil exp. The needed exp to finish ONE "ideal" takes about 3 times as long as to cap 16 20's.

You have just conviced me that I should never try to do something like that :)

Favis
11-02-2009, 04:33 PM
EDIT: To make it more clear, the problem with Past Life as a progression grind is that once you start it, you're locked out from participating in the other progression grinds: raid loot and epic tokens.
But you can also look at it the other way round.

raid loot are for people that like to do the same raid over and over again.
And the problem with it is that you can't gain it if you think it's more fun to start new caracters at lvl 1 ones again.

So basicaly they give a new way of improving you caracter where you can quest in 4-6 parties doing all quests in the game (not having to quest in raides doing only a few quests).

LookingForABentoBox
11-02-2009, 04:54 PM
Completionist
Prereq: All passive Past Life feats. Minimum level 3.
You win DDO! (And lose at life) You've leveled to 20 in every class, and for your effort can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more classes are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates. Kill yourself.

Rune_Darkfire
11-02-2009, 05:10 PM
Remind me that when I see any of Vhlad's toons or Absolute-Omniescene's toons onlne trying to join my groups after Reincarnation is released, I'll have to make sure that first they reincarnated 32 times and 21 times respectively, otherwise they won't be deemed "optimal" and therefore gimp, not fit to join my super-elite pro group that can make it through Waterworks 7 minutes faster than someone who had only reincarnated 31 or 20 times, respectively.

Sheesh.

Also.. um.... guys? Seriously? Completionist? Please tell me I'm not the only one that recognizes this Eladrin's attempt at some tongue-in-cheek humour designed to rope people just like Vhlad in? LOL. Good job man, they bought it hook-line-&-sinker. Your first clue should be the first sentence in the feat description, LOL.

PS. Now watch, someone is going to prove me wrong, I can just feel it. LOL

GhostNull
11-02-2009, 05:33 PM
Completionist
Prereq: All passive Past Life feats. Minimum level 3.
You win DDO! (And lose at life) You've leveled to 20 in every class, and for your effort can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more classes are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates. Kill yourself /wrist style or realize that there is a real world out there, therefore uninstall DDO and never look back.

There :p

Mhykke
11-02-2009, 05:35 PM
My suggestion:

Dump this entire past life nonsense.

deadkitty
11-02-2009, 06:23 PM
So lets just do some math... Lets say you can cap a toon in 3 weeks.

3 WeeksX33 Rerolls= 99 Weeks to beat DDO

99 weeks= 1.9 years

Awsome by the time its complete.... I'll probably be playing another game, congrats turbine.

spifflove
11-02-2009, 06:42 PM
So how much will the completionist feat cost in the ddo store?:confused:

Lithic
11-02-2009, 07:02 PM
Wow... as a completionist myself I have to say this may rope me in for a good long while. Or possibly lead me to computercide.

While you're at it though, how bout letting us complete the solo-only quests on N/H/especially ELITE? And possibly epic in the future of course...

It would also be nice if non-quest quests did not reset with a past life. For example, orchard helm/shield/tome quests, desert tokens, wilderness slayers (reset the rares and explorer if you like), dragon/giant/elf relic turn in, 3x dragonscale turn in, invaders token turn ins, etc.

Lithic
11-02-2009, 07:07 PM
My suggestion:

Dump this entire past life nonsense.

Wouldnt be so bad if you couldnt stack the past life feats 3x. The free bonuses aren't so bad for the most part, until you start multiplying by 3. Especially the ones that gives +2 spell penetration. If epic mobs are created to assume a triple reincarnated FvS, triple reincarnated wizard, with all spell pen feats, items and enhancements, then that will be something like a spell pen of 39, vs a non-uberized of 30. 30 Assumes 20 levels, both feats, all 3 enhancements, and a greater spell pen item. This means either the reincarnater gets 100% penetration and the non-TR gets about 50%, or the reincarnater gets 50% and the non-TR get zero.

It's even worse for non ideal characters who's spell pen would look more like

18 (18/2 split) + 0 (no feats) +2 (2 of 3 enhancements) +2 (spell pen item) total: 22.

Borror0
11-02-2009, 07:23 PM
While you're at it though, how bout letting us complete the solo-only quests on N/H/especially ELITE?
I think you should try them on live. You might be surprised.

Lithic
11-02-2009, 07:36 PM
I think you should try them on live. You might be surprised.

Hmm did they sneak in this change without posting in the update notes? If so, I need check that tonight. May need to get a new sig... heh.

Edit: No change for arachnophobia and millers debt. Both are still solo-only. Sig stays as is.

lanthan
11-03-2009, 12:27 AM
Purchasable Feats:
All purchasable past life feats now have a minimum level of 3 to purchase and can be purchased once. These cost a feat, and all have a passive and an active component.


Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill, deal increased unarmed damage (one step higher than normal on the unarmed combat chart), and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time. (When you make a successful Reflex save to avoid damage, you suffer no damage instead of half damage.)

Will this feat increase the unarmed damage of a level 20 monk? If so what base unarmed damage would a level 20 monk have with this feat?

bobbryan2
11-03-2009, 12:47 AM
Will this feat increase the unarmed damage of a level 20 monk? If so what base unarmed damage would a level 20 monk have with this feat?

Who knows for sure... but seeing as how they went from 2d8 to 3d6 instead of 2d10, I'm guessing you'll see 4d6 + 1.

SimVerg
11-03-2009, 01:36 AM
I think(hope) you guys are misreading the Wizard one. My interpretation is (+2 spell pen and dc)-> to your wands, not +2 spell pen and (+2 dc to your wands).

Borror0
11-03-2009, 07:27 AM
These are the current Past Life feats:
Past life feats, for as long as they are tied to True Reincarnation, will lead to discussions beginning with questions like, "Why should have to play my barbarian as a monk three times to have the best DPS barbarian, how does that make sense and am I supposed to have fun?" which highlights the major problem with the concept. It will always entail encouraging players in playing classes that they might not enjoy playing just to play a character that they want to play.

Basically, it reintroduces the concept of 'throwaway character' that Greater Reincarnation would have finally got rid off.

It's also not intuitive. If a new player wants to play a DPS barbarian, he'll roll a DPS barbarian. He won't roll a monk just so that, a few months later, he can reincarnate as a DPS barbarian. He might, if he read on the subject, but that's not a given. If he didn't, the discovery might not be enjoyable.

Finally, as Angelus_dead pointed out (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2529605&postcount=99), it locks you out of other enjoyable activities (which often incorporates your friends - unlike leveling up).

I realize that the concept of past life feats is probably your baby but it's an ugly baby and it needs to be aborted.

Sometimes, an idea is not as good as we originally thought it would be and spending more energy trying to salvage it is not simply not worthwhile. I think this is one of those times, unfortunately. I just cannot see what's supposed to be fun about past life feats or how they're supposed to enhance anyone's gameplay - at least not without some negative consequences on most players' enjoyment.

If the intent is additional character options, then there are better ways to provide it such as prestige enhancements, new feats accessible without grinding, new spells and new enhancements. If the intent is to provide another grind, there are more enjoyable ways to go at it than past life feats. Preferably ones that allow players to play with their friends and don't encourage them to replay the content they have been playing for years.

If the above fails to persuade you, then here are at least a few changes that I think should be done to past life feats before hitting live:
1. Players should only be able to acquire one free past life feat at a time.
2. Players can swap their active free past life feat at Fred (when reincarnating).

This is done to avoid having characters being far more powerful than others (a character with several past life feats and 36 points is quite more powerful than a plain 28 point buy build) and having players the same grind too often to the point where they are harming their own fun.

These are free, the feat tied to your dominant class is granted upon True Reincarnation.
What happens if you have two classes of the same level? The one that is your class icon is your dominant class?

Past Life: Barbarian
You were a barbarian in a past life. You occasionally find yourself filled with a nearly irresistable urge to smash boxes. With your head. Each time you acquire this feat you gain 10 additional hit points. This feat can be stacked up to three times.
I don't have a problem with the effect of this feat but I do have a problem with the description. Most of those feats have some flavor text that, well, are not flavorful at all. Hopefully those are just placeholders but, if they are not, they should be changed to something more befitting of the effect.

For example, having a "nearly irresistible urge to smash boxes" has nothing to do with being a barbarian in your previous life nor having greater hit points.

Past Life: Bard
You were a bard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself humming a merry tune. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to saves vs. enchantments and illusions, and +1 Bardic Song usage. This feat can be stacked up to three times.
How unfortunate that Freedom of Movements makes most players immune to most enchantments and illusions... *cough*

Past Life: Favored Soul
You were a favored soul in a past life. You occasionally find yourself wishing to leap off of tall things. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to spell penetration checks and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.
If you want an alternative, +5 elemental resists or +5% energy absorption might be good choices too.

Past Life: Monk
You were a monk in a past life. You occasionally find yourself contemplating the mysteries of life. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to damage rolls. This feat can be stacked up to three times.
While incredibly good, this does not come across as monk-like. All the opposite, after over a year of being stuck at the bottom of the DPS chart, good DPS is possibly the last thing that would cross a DDO player's mind when thinking about monks. Even without this, monks are designed to be better at survival rather than being DPS monsters.

Things like Damage Reduction, percentage of damage absorption or bonus to saves might be more in the monk's alley.

Past Life: Wizard
You were a wizard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself desiring a good book. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to spell penetration checks and the DC's of wands you use. This feat can be stacked up to three times.
If the SR bonus is limited to wands, then the bonus is incredibly weak and should be improved. If it is not limited to wands, then it is incredibly overpowered and will result in a balance nightmare if it can be stacked up to three times. Either way, this needs to be changed.

Purchasable Feats:
All purchasable past life feats now have a minimum level of 3 to purchase and can be purchased once. These cost a feat, and all have a passive and an active component.
Most of those feats' active component is useless and would not be any less desirable if it was removed. As for the passive parts, some are completely useless.

See Angelus_dead's excellent post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2529418&postcount=92) for which and why.

Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can invoke Divine Favor upon yourself three times per rest. (Activate this paladin ability to call upon the strength and wisdom of a deity to grant a +1 luck bonus on weapon attack and damage. This bonus is increased by +1 for every 3 caster levels beyond level 3.)
If you decide it is no longer mandatory for those feats to have both an active and a passive component, it could be interesting to replace the Divine Favor ability by a static +2 Luck bonus to to-hit and damage. It is appealing to melee classes who cannot cast Divine Favor and it might become appealing to classes who can if DDO ever features enough spells for a paladin to consider not picking up Divine Favor and pick this feat up instead.

New Feat:
Completionist
Prereq: All passive Past Life feats. Minimum level 3.
You win DDO! You've leveled to 20 in every class, and for your effort can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more classes are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates.
If this is really geared at achievers like the title suggest, then the effect should be revisited.

Achievers do things because they can; they do not need a carrot to persuade them to do it. That is not to say that you can't design things for them. Reputation, badges and deeds are all common examples of designs in MMOs that are effective in entertaining achievers. Basically, as long as it's an in-game recognition for achieving X task, it will appeal to achievers.

When you put an incentive, it's usually for the other players who would not impose a challenge upon themselves otherwise.

By putting a character progression incentive to a grind that only a few insane completionists would even dare to attempt, you're only risking to attract complaints by players who wants the bonus but are not crazy enough to attempt the insane task that it is when, in reality, there is no reason to take that risk.

If you want to make the completionists happy, give them something that they can show off after completing that crazy task. It'll be far more effective.

woundead85
11-03-2009, 10:51 AM
Let me get this straight. The most uber character would now be [any class you really like] True Reincarnated 33 times, with the last 'round' being all of the classes, ending up with the same [any class you really like].
1. This is complete ignorance of playerbase's 'fun-factor'.
2. Now I have something to do! :D

Either way, 33 True Reincarnations will be so much overpowering, that it will make the effort of last two years down the drain. Wasn't it the original idea to make (more or less) every class equally survivable/enjoyable? Now you'll have a complete newbie grouping up with 33TR monster in WW (both level 2). Can you imagine that?
I'm not saying everyone should go this route (lest you want to stay gimped forever, muhahaha!), but this is setting the plank too high.

For example, I love playing rogues. To have the mos uberlike rogue around my progression would look like that:
barbarian x2
bard x2
fighter x2
monk x2
paladin x2
ranger x2
rogue x2
barbarian
bard
cleric
favored soul
fighter
monk
paladin
ranger
sorcerer
wizard
rogue

This will net me all the best bonuses a rogue can have. The way looks too tiresome.

Favis
11-03-2009, 11:50 AM
It will always entail encouraging players in playing classes that they might not enjoy playing just to play a character that they want to play.
valid point




Finally, as Angelud_dead pointed out (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2529605&postcount=99), it locks you out of other enjoyable activities (which often incorporates your friends - unlike leveling up).

Totaly dissagree.
It gives people that likes to do quests lvl 1-19 a way of inproving there caracters that they don't have today (where you are limited to raiding).



I think(hope) you guys are misreading the Wizard one. My interpretation is (+2 spell pen and dc)-> to your wands, not +2 spell pen and (+2 dc to your wands).
Intrested in wich as it makes a huge diffrence. (As a bit useless if it applay to wands)

bobbryan2
11-03-2009, 11:54 AM
Totaly dissagree.
It gives people that likes to do quests lvl 1-19 a way of inproving there caracters that they don't have today (where you are limited to raiding).


If you weren't interested in raid loot, then there's no real reason to true reincarnate. Keeping your raid loot is the primary motivation behind true reincarnations. And secondly, these modifications help you a lot less than raid loot.

My only point is that true reincarnation is primarily aimed at the same audience that raiding is aimed at. It's geared that power-gaming grinders enjoy raids and the tiny power creep from a loot of work of reincarnating.

The fact that reincarnations remove your ability to raid is what is making some scratch their heads. In a perfect world, you allow the player to do both, instead of isolating him from his friends and normal routine.

Angelus_dead
11-03-2009, 12:07 PM
I realize that the concept of past life feats is probably your baby but it's an ugly baby and it needs to be aborted.
Or re-name it and repurpose it as something different. If the devs feel they want to add a form of progression where a character gains minor abilities themed to a class in the game, fine. If they also want it to qualify you to spend a feat on even more themed abilities, that can be OK too. After all, both those things feel like a variation of multiclass training, where you've invested less than a whole level worth in a different pursuit.

But those features do not necessarily have to be linked to repeating from level 1. There are many other ways access to that progression could be gated, such as:
1. Collect some rare top-level raid drops to eventually purchase a PLF.
2. Change to another class and earn XP to go from 1-20; but you don't have to do it contiguously. Instead you can talk to the NPC to instantly switch back and forth to your "real" level 20 abilities when you want to do some epic dungeons in between working your way up.


Finally, as Angelud_dead pointed out (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2529605&postcount=99), it locks you out of other enjoyable activities (which often incorporates your friends - unlike leveling up).
That's an important point, as it brings up a potential benefit for "reincarnation" technology that the current methods do not provide. A major selling point of an MMORPG is that it is renting access to its other customers; people pay for the privilege of playing with each other.

But that goal conflicts with having progression in the gameplay, which is necessary to be an attractive RPG. The devs can't allow players to be immediately effective in any content, or they'll skip to the end and get done with the game in a few days. But barriers to immediately accessing all the content are often also barriers to playing with other people.

For example, due to an entry requirement for epic mode I was forced to advance my characters to 20th, even though they weren't done looting level 18 raids. Yesterday I was unable to join a Hound LFM because they had a level 15 character and would only accept up to 19. Not only did those people wait an extended time to start the raid, but about 30 minutes later most of the same names showed up in another Hound LFM, indicating that their attempt had failed (something I would likely have prevented).

Since the reincarnation system involves reducing the level of existing characters, one would hope it could provide a way to alleviate that problem, and allow someone to team up with other players even if his character had already progressed too far to be balanced with them. But unfortunately none of the current reincarnate options are close to adequate for that purpose.

Wilecoyote
11-03-2009, 12:10 PM
This is going to be long, deal with it. :)

I want to give a thorough review of the past life feats so I'm going to start off by giving my criteria for evaluation. First, there's three things I look at when looking at rules for an RPG... does it have a cool factor, does it give me a mechanical advantage, and does it open up options? Now because these are new rules, there's a couple other items to consider... are they balanced, is the mechanical advantage worth the effort of getting it, and do they appeal to a target audience? About the target audience... I realise that no feat is going to appeal to all players given the issues involved (repeating the same class vs. changing to a new class, melee vs. spell caster, etc...) but I think there's room for improvement. The bottom line here is do these rules make me want to play whatever the rules are describing?

As for balance and reward vs. effort, I'd like to suggest an enhancement... add a small set of enhancements that require the purchasable past life feat as a prerequisite. For each class, I'm including a proposed 3 rank enhancement... each rank would have a requirement of the same number of passive past life feats (rank 1 requires 1 true reincarnation of the class, rank 2 requires you to have true reincarnated the class twice, and so on). This would dramatically increase the appeal while keeping the balance in mind.

One last note, looking at the "passive feats", it looks like you're intending that they be more or less equivalent to existing feats (Fighter ~= Weapon Focus, Sorcerer ~= Spell Focus: Evocation with a dash of Mental Toughness, etc...) so I'm using that as a basis of comparison for evaluating balance and the reward/effort ratio. For the "purchasable feats", it looks like you're trying to balance these as somewhat improved feats... slightly better than what is available currently and often incorporating unique features. If I'm wrong about where you're intending to balance the power level of these feats, that would of course change pretty much everything I'll be saying below.

That being said, here's my thoughts on the past life feats:

Barbarian: The passive feat fails to compare to the equivalent standard feat (Toughness). I'd recommend upgrading this feat to either 20 flat hit points or making it equivalent to Toughness (+3hp at 1st, +1 per level after). With the hit points moved to the passive feat, that opens up the purchasable feat which is lackluster when taking into consideration the existing Rage spells and potions. For the passive feature, I'd recommend granting DR 1/- that stacks with existing DR instead... capping at 3 points for 3 true reincarnations this would be valuable without being game breaking. For the active feature, 1 use of Uncanny Dodge per rest (+4 AC if you don't have the class feature, an additional use of the class feature if you do). For the enhancement tied to the feat, add Barbarian's Resistance I/II/III costing 2/4/6 points that grants an additional point of DR per rank. DR and AC like this would be of value to most characters so it would have good appeal while being useful to both "repeat" barbarians and people moving to a different class. With hit points, DR, and Uncanny Dodge the focus here is being rough, tough, and able to take the hits.

Bard: While not exciting (bards can easily get over 20 uses of bardic music so one more isn't a big deal), the single use of bardic music does have some small appeal to people who play solo or in small groups and are reincarnating out of bard. I presume that if one reincarnates out of bard that the single use allows them to do an Inspire Courage +1 effect otherwise this is useless to them. The plus to saves is nice but also not exciting (it's hard to make defenses exciting). On the purchasable feat, the +1 to all charisma based skills is great (yay for UMD!) but the wording suggests that the Inspire Courage ability is only available via the purchased feat which makes the passive feat problematic. I'd recommend replacing the active ability of the purchasable feat with Fascinate with the DC based on the character's level rather than Perform skill having 1 use per rest which would be useful with or without a bard in the group and either solo or grouped. For the enhancement, add Fascinating Song I/II/III costing 2/4/6 points that grants an additional use of this ability per rank. So with this set we're getting something very like the Bard itself... a little bit of skills, a little bit of inspiration, and a little bit of CC but nothing to extreme.

Cleric: The passive feat is balanced but pretty much absolutely useless unless you reincarnate back into cleric. Instead I would recommend the following: +2 to Concentration and +3% to the effect of any heal spells you cast. This would make the passive feat of interest to all of the classes that can heal (cleric, paladin, ranger, and bard... and if the effect applies to repairs as well then wizard and sorcerer as well). The purchasable feat is definitely oriented towards someone coming back as a healer as they're the only ones likely to be carrying enhancements, feats, and gear to improve the effect of such a small heal and thus make it worth using. If however, you change the passive effect of the feat to qualifying the character as a cleric of 3rd level for wand and scroll use, it has appeal to all characters both healing and non-healing. Add an enhancement Faithful I/II/III costing 2/4/6 points that adds two levels to this effect per rank (thus capping at 9th level) and you get a limited UMD effect with broad appeal... healers enjoying the active effect and non-healers enjoying the passive effect.

Favored Soul: Perfect. Love both the passive and purchased feats and wouldn't change a thing about them. They're obviously focused on reincarnating as a caster but they work well regardless of what kind of caster you come back as. For an enhancement perhaps Avenging Soul I/II/III costing 2/4/6 points which grants +1 Spell Penetration and save DC per rank.

Fighter: The passive feat is great. The active feat is good but how long does the effect last? I'd be looking at a minimum of 30 seconds per use and would prefer 60 seconds. If I had anything to add to this, I'd consider making the purchasable feat a qualifying prerequisite for Weapon Specialization. For an enhancement how about Hearty Warrior I/II/III costing 2/4/6 points and grants an additional use of the ability per rest per rank?

Monk: I think the passive feat is light here. I realize this is DDO not D&D 3.5 but usually a feat grants +1 AC (Dodge), +1 to-hit (Weapon Focus), or +2 to damage (Weapon Specialization). So I'd look at bumping the passive ability to a +2 to melee damage. For the purchasable feat, it's wonderful for repeat Monks and pretty useless for most everyone else. The passive side of it is only useful for a repeat monk (and I'd love to know if it increases unarmed damage past 2d10 for a level 20 monk with this feat) but the active part is only useful to wizards and sorcerers (who won't care about the passive feat or the passive portion of this feat) as no one else wears light armor or outfits/robes and doesn't get evasion as part of their class. And as tempting as the idea might be, please don't kill the 2 levels of rogue or monk splash that has become such a staple of the game as it makes the player choose between being pure and getting the capstone or splashing for other benefits. So instead I'd consider the following for the purchasable feat: +10% movement speed (that stacks with everything) as a passive ability and a +10% bonus (also stacking with everything) to attack speed 3/rest for 30 seconds per use as the active ability. For the enhancement I'd say Monk's Swiftness I/II/III costing 2/4/6 points that increases the attack speed bonus of this feat by 5% per rank (adjust the percentages if needed for balance but these feel right). These abilities tie nicely into the monk's theme of speed in movement and attack and work well whether you're reincarnating back into monk or into any other melee class. (But as a person playing a monk that is purpose-built for true reincarnating, I'm still drooling over the idea of the increased die type for unarmed damage... I just hate that it is pretty much useless for everyone but repeat monks).

Paladin: The passive feat is interesting, especially if you're trying to introduce a tanking buff via the true reincarnation feats. But it isn't the first thing I think of when it comes to a paladin's passive abilities. How about a +1 to all saves (equivalent then to Luck of Heroes)? As for the purchasable feat, I like it. It's only flaw for the active portion is that it's not a big deal for a repeat paladin but at least it saves mana. The passive ability is a bit weak but the active is pretty good and makes up a lot for it. For the enhancement, perhaps Holy Fervor I/II/III which grants an additional use per rest per rank?

Ranger: Ouch. Ranged weapon combat has known issues right now and this isn't the way to fix it. How about +1 to hit when dual-wielding or using a ranged weapon instead? The purchasable feat isn't a big deal for raiders who usually have a ranger around but for small group/solo players this is a good feat. Like many others, I'd like to see a favored enemy ability in here somewhere and enhancements would be a good way to make them worth while and balanced. Other than that, I've got nothing.

Rogue: The passive feat is good (but like monk could use an upgrade to +2 damage when sneak attacking) and the purchasable feat is perfect. No real complaints here at all. For an enhancement how about Shadow Killer I/II/III costing 2/4/6 points that adds an additional use per rest per rank?

Sorcerer: Love it! Visions of multi-true reincarnated wizard/sorcerer/wizard/sorcerer/etc... dance in my head. Throw in favored soul a time or three in there for a spellcasting beast with lots of free spells if you can squeeze in all three purchased past life feats. I haven't got any ideas for this one on making an enhancement for it because it's already beautiful.

Wizard: Love it! Go back and read sorcerer and then add to it the ability to actually make damaging spell wands useful. I couldn't improve on it in the slightest and like sorcerer, I haven't got a clue what enhancement could be added that wouldn't make it overpowered. PLEASE don't change this feat pair.


Overall I really like the idea of true reincarnation and the ideas you guys have for passive/purchasable feats. There's a lot here to make for new build options which frankly is one of the greatest strengths of DDO... you have so many choices available when building your character. I can imagine a halfling arcane caster with dragonmarks and a cleric past life to have expanded self-healing options. I can see various melee classes with a fighter history that can really leverage that increased to-hit (heck, I can see a past life fighter attached to a Red Dragon Disciple sorcerer as a really interesting combo).

The only other thing I can add is that if you're feeling torn on the purchasable past life feat for a class because it does different iconic things... then consider adding multiple purchasable past life feats for that class. Rangers both dual-wield and use ranged weapons... maybe have one past life feat that buffs dual-wield and a different past life feat that buffs ranged combat. Nothing says you only have to have one purchasable past life feat per class.

If you actually read all of this, thank you.

Aspenor
11-03-2009, 12:12 PM
Passive Feats:
These are free, the feat tied to your dominant class is granted upon True Reincarnation.

So, we need to TR more than once to stack a feat? Say, the sorcerer feat?

Favis
11-03-2009, 01:18 PM
If you weren't interested in raid loot, then there's no real reason to true reincarnate.

For me true incarnation would be fun as it would be possible to lvl upp to 20 and then I don't have do delete the caracter and gain nothing if I like to start all over again.
Instead I can lvl upp to lvl 20 make a TR and feel I continue on my caracter in a way and even improving him/her.
Realy nice :)



Keeping your raid loot is the primary motivation behind true reincarnations.

For people that like to re-spec class/es and still keep the raidlot it is.



And secondly, these modifications help you a lot less than raid loot.

Agree



2. Change to another class and earn XP to go from 1-20; but you don't have to do it contiguously. Instead you can talk to the NPC to instantly switch back and forth to your "real" level 20 abilities when you want to do some epic dungeons in between working your way up.

A great suggestion :)

Borror0
11-03-2009, 02:27 PM
Totaly dissagree.
If you believe so, please demonstrate how it does not lock you out of end games activities.

It gives people that likes to do quests lvl 1-19 a way of inproving there caracters that they don't have today (where you are limited to raiding).
You want to start working today on a character you will only play later on by playing level 1-19 quests? Am I getting this right?

Solmage
11-03-2009, 03:30 PM
In that case, would you consider offering drows innate spell resistance like the monk without enhancement requirement? And of course -1 penalty to hit/damage in daylight.

Actually, with the ease with which we can get spell resistance from clerics, and the enhanced power of the 32 pt builds, I really would like to see drow gain their innate resistance, and current drow resistance enhancements to perhaps add a bonus on top of it. (OR at the very least, to add +1 each 3 levels at tier1, +1 each levels at tier2, and +1 per level at tier3)

Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time.

All the other abilities have the duration listed. Could we get the duration on this one please? Since it's only 1/x rest I'm going to hope it'll be an 'useful' time (ie worth one boss fight) - but one never knows :)

assamite
11-03-2009, 04:42 PM
Let me get this straight. The most uber character would now be [any class you really like] True Reincarnated 33 times, with the last 'round' being all of the classes, ending up with the same [any class you really like].

For example, I love playing rogues. To have the mos uberlike rogue around my progression would look like that:
barbarian x2
bard x2
fighter x2
monk x2
paladin x2
ranger x2
rogue x2
barbarian
bard
cleric
favored soul
fighter
monk
paladin
ranger
sorcerer
wizard
rogue

This will net me all the best bonuses a rogue can have. The way looks too tiresome.


You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points. You will also be given access to a "past life" feat, where influences of your previous character class can aid you in your new life/profession.

I must be missing something. Can somebody post a link or quote from a dev that says you can reincarnate more than 2 times?

Borror0
11-03-2009, 04:44 PM
I must be missing something. Can somebody post a link or quote from a dev that says you can reincarnate more than 2 times?
From this very thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2529284&postcount=88

DagazUlf
11-03-2009, 05:07 PM
Past life feats, for as long as they are tied to True Reincarnation, will lead to discussions ..... <big snippage>

Admittedly I have a bit of a fever and am using some OTC medications, but I have to support everything Borror0 just typed in that post. :D

assamite
11-03-2009, 05:17 PM
These are the current Past Life feats:

New Feat:
Completionist
Prereq: All passive Past Life feats. Minimum level 3.
You win DDO! You've leveled to 20 in every class, and for your effort can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more classes are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates.

Hooooollyyyyyy **** <.< i found it myself... ty borroro
Yaaaa im diggin that feat it is really cool. I think anybody that lvls through every class 1 time deserves it. But i do not think all the pastlife feats to get that feat should stack, only 3 from your main class was cool enough. +3 atk and +3 dc on my fighter is gona be the shizznit.

But hey turbine, if that's how you want it i will gladly take it. I look forward to spending the time lvling through everyclass then Rogue 3x, Barb 3x, monk 3x then my beloved fighter 2x. Seriously its gona be fun. And its gona be nice knowing that the time myself and many have spent playing this game will be a lot more noticeable.This is giving us something to actually work towards rather than farming green steel ingredients.

BlackSteel
11-03-2009, 05:18 PM
If the above fails to persuade you, then here are at least a few changes that I think should be done to past life feats before hitting live:
1. Players should only be able to acquire one free past life feat at a time.
2. Players can swap their active free past life feat at Fred (when reincarnating).


I dont feel that the idea should be 'aborted' it definetly needs more thought. The above suggestion I was thinking of myself. Only allowing for one past life feat, and taken feat as well since they have prereqs, feels much less like griefing the player base. Its a small bonus, which wont be overpowering when comparing to characters, juts a perk. When you start stacking each bonus 3 times, with multiple bonuses it just gets out of hand.

Since 36 point buy is going to be the highest we're going (for now, who knows later); that gives anyone playing now a chance to reincarnate once into a 34 to get the bonus they want, then reroll back into their orginal class for the 36. And not feel gimped when they end up playing with someone with 20+ past life feats.

This encourages new players as well, those who read up on the game before rolling or settling on what they want as their main will be able to pick a path, and might even settle with a 34 point build, and have the desired past life feat obtained from their first trek thru the game. And for those that dont find out till later are simply put in the same position that the rest of us are in now.

I like the majority of the feats, and they present some hard choices on what would be the desirable feat if you had to pick only one. Even if some of them are confusing. (monk, damage, really?)

I really hope the current implementation isnt what finally makes it into the game.

BlackSteel
11-03-2009, 05:22 PM
But hey turbine, if that's how you want it i will gladly take it. I look forward to spending the time lvling through everyclass then Rogue 3x, Barb 3x, monk 3x then my beloved fighter 2x. Seriously its gona be fun. And its gona be nice knowing that the time myself and many have spent playing this game will be a lot more noticeable.This is giving us something to actually work towards rather than farming green steel ingredients.

Have you looked at just how much play time that encompasses? Thats not simply 11 trips thru the game as you know it now, but 9 of those are done at the 36 point penalty. Which is more like 20+ trips from 1-20. AO had the minimum hours needed to complete an 'ideal' character like this and it was insane; probably more time than a good number of us have spent in game thus far.

Borror0
11-03-2009, 05:33 PM
I dont feel that the idea should be 'aborted' it definetly needs more thought. The above suggestion I was thinking of myself. Only allowing for one past life feat, and taken feat as well since they have prereqs, feels much less like griefing the player base. Its a small bonus, which wont be overpowering when comparing to characters, juts a perk. When you start stacking each bonus 3 times, with multiple bonuses it just gets out of hand.
While my suggestion does remove some of the flaws with the current implementation, it still leaves quite a few behind like encouraging players in playing classes that they might not enjoy playing just to play a character that they want to play or locking you out of other enjoyable activities. It's also quite a pain in the butt to respec that feat (you have to perform two True Reincarnations).

It all boils down to how does this improves the game and is it worth the additional game design, QA and programming make sure it's well-implemented.

In this case, I'm struggling to see the positive effects it will have on the game. It will make True Reincarnation more appealing but that can be (and should be) done by lowering the cost. Other than that, it adds an insane grind but I don't see how that's a good thing. So, I can't help but think there are better ways to spend that time than spending it on past life feats. Many classes are missing their PrE's and fighters could use more feats, if you want two quick examples.

BlackSteel
11-03-2009, 05:47 PM
While my suggestion does remove some of the flaws with the current implementation, it still leaves quite a few behind like encouraging players in playing classes that they might not enjoy playing just to play a character that they want to play or locking you out of other enjoyable activities. It's also quite a pain in the butt to respec that feat (you have to perform two True Reincarnations)..

performing two reincarnations puts you at 36 point buy anyway. which was my point, that most people interested in rerolling in the first place are going to take it all the way (aside from those who simply want to fix one lvl) Using the 2nd of 3 lives to achieve the desired past life feat isnt a bad way to go, considering 'most' people will still be able to use acquired raid loot. (if you can only choose one, most arcanes will choose an arcane passive, and most melees will choose a melee one, the raid gear for a barb or fighter is very similar)
a sorc, rerolling as a wizard, to reroll finally back to a sorc is going to play nearly the same. So is the Barbarian who rerolls as a fighter to later become a barbarian again. Yes to spend 20 lvls in a class that is not what you intended the character to be; but thats not permenant; and I dont see how thats much different than the characters that people have now that ONLY get played to grind out 1 or 2 raids for particular loot. There was a lvl 11 character on khyber that for the longest time did all the end game raids looking for a +3 int tome. that 34 point leveling process is simply a means to an end.

Borror0
11-03-2009, 06:02 PM
Yes to spend 20 lvls in a class that is not what you intended the character to be; but thats not permenant; and I dont see how thats much different than the characters that people have now that ONLY get played to grind out 1 or 2 raids for particular loot.
There's a difference between "It's bearable; many players do similar things currently" and "It's fun; we should encourage it."

In this case, yes, the drawbacks can be tolerated by why should we when there is no notable benefits to adding past life feats in the game?

I'm fully aware that no solution or change is perfect. Whatever you implement, there will always be flaws here or there and that's just unavoidable; it does not mean the change is a bad idea just for that. However, that's not the kind of change we're talking about. Rather, it's something that does not improve gameplay and has many undesirable side effects so why should Turbine invest more time QA, programming and game design in that change and why should it be added to the game?

Even your defense of past life feats is "It's not that bad" rather than "It's actually fun" or "It fulfills an important need"...

Aesop
11-03-2009, 06:12 PM
Hey Eladrin ... I think it would be less daunting and frustrating to have the Passive Feats NOT stack... I mean three times through is just craziness.

I actually like the past life thingy over all... it could still use some tweaking though... the Cleric Purchase Feat still stinks.

actually I think having the class specific Free Feats is nifty but I think the active Feats should be abit more generic


Another thing you could do is have Racial Memory Feats. The character taps into the abilites of her/his former race and gains a benefit. Only one at a time though.

Human could give a bonus of 4 Skill Points

Warforged may give a Natural Armor of 1

Dwarf may give extra hp or improved armor

Elf could grant immunity to sleep

Halfling may grant a +1 to all saves or bonus to sneak attack damage...

these aren't really well thought out but instead of laying all the eggs in one basket perhaps spread them out the benefits a little


Perhaps only being able to have one Past Life Free Feat Active at a time, but still allowing the Purchased Feats to be stacked up


example:

Life 1: Human Barbarian (no Free) (no Racial) (no Class)
Life 2: Warforged Fighter (Barbarian Free) (Racial:Human;costs a Feat) (Class: Barb; Costs a Feat)

Life 3: Drow Paladin (Barb OR Ftr Free) (Racial: Human OR Warforged; Feat) (Class: Barb and/or Ftr; Feat)

Life 4: Elven Ranger (Barb, Ftr OR Pal Free) (Racial: Human, Warforged OR Drow; Feat) (Class: Barb, Ftr, and/or Pal; Feat)




as for the problem of splitting time between the grinds... that is a tough one... A_D's suggestion sounds interesting ... but I'm not sure about how well it would work. If Raid Gear was Bound to Account then I suppose someone with multiple characters could continue the Raid Grind while doing the Character Grind as well...

Aesop

xman26
11-03-2009, 06:14 PM
How about making it so we can carry over 1 free feat(ie doesn't cost us a feat slot) from doing a true reincarnate. Like say I reach lvl20 true Fighter, I want to true reincarnate, i get to CHOOSE from any of the feats I have currently taken upto max lvl. Now some restrictions should be put in place like if one took greater weapon focus: slashing weapons, while it doesn't cost a feat to take, it doesn't go active UNTIL the prereqs(ie other feats not stats) are taken. This way one could become a better fighter sooner than later. The ones you Devs have come up with are weak at best, close to why did you even bother trying to do this status.

As for the 2nd time you true reincarnate, the first CHOOSEN feat carries over automaticly and the player can choose yet another free feat(again neither costing a feat slot usage while leveling) but also has the same rule applied, does not go active until prereq feats before have been selected, not stats.

This would be far better than the system someone else came up with.

example 2. I go straight 20lvl fighter, true reincarnate and take greater weapon specialization. it doesn't become usable until I have taken/met the prereqs for improved weapon specialization. I then reach lvl20 again and decide to stay with the fighter class for another 20lvls. The GWS carries over at no cost and my next new feat I select to carry over is GTWF. Again, this feat does not go active, nor does GWS, until I have met the prereqs for and have taken the feat ITWF and IWS(for GWS) feat. This would be far more benificial to us gamers than the system you have come up with.

BlackSteel
11-03-2009, 06:42 PM
There's a difference between "It's bearable; many players do similar things currently" and "It's fun; we should encourage it."

In this case, yes, the drawbacks can be tolerated by why should we when there is no notable benefits to adding past life feats in the game?

I'm fully aware that no solution or change is perfect. Whatever you implement, there will always be flaws here or there and that's just unavoidable; it does not mean the change is a bad idea just for that. However, that's not the kind of change we're talking about. Rather, it's something that does not improve gameplay and has many undesirable side effects so why should Turbine invest more time QA, programming and game design in that change and why should it be added to the game?

Even your defense of past life feats is "It's not that bad" rather than "It's actually fun" or "It fulfills an important need"...

34/36 builds are ALOT less appealing to most old characters w/o the past life incentive. whats the 4 extra build points worth to most chars? +1 to two saves mostly, hardly worth the lost of tomes

Borror0
11-03-2009, 06:51 PM
34/36 builds are ALOT less appealing to most old characters w/o the past life incentive. whats the 4 extra build points worth to most chars? +1 to two saves mostly, hardly worth the lost of tomes
Obviously but, as I said before, you solve that by lowering the cost rather than increasing the reward.

A few other moves can also be done if deemed necessary like changing the prereq of GTWF to 19 Dex as per PnP, making allow reincarnated character to invest creation points to reach 20 base ability and make abilities other than [main ability] and Con relevant to all players. All of those are beneficial for the game; past life feats are not.

QuantumFX
11-03-2009, 07:22 PM
These are the current Past Life feats:

New Feat:
Completionist
Prereq: All passive Past Life feats. Minimum level 3.
You win DDO! You've leveled to 20 in every class, and for your effort can take this feat to get a +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores. When more classes are added, this feat will deactivate and you will need to gain those past lives before this benefit reactivates.

Sweet! I’ll never have to buy another character slot ever again! /sarcasm

Favis
11-04-2009, 12:48 AM
You want to start working today on a character you will only play later on by playing level 1-19 quests? Am I getting this right?
Not only but mostly.
(As it's gives more variation then raiding).

Acctualy this suggestion would be even better (the quote of Angelus_dead below):


2. Change to another class and earn XP to go from 1-20; but you don't have to do it contiguously. Instead you can talk to the NPC to instantly switch back and forth to your "real" level 20 abilities when you want to do some epic dungeons in between working your way up.

luandang
11-04-2009, 01:07 AM
Basically, it reintroduces the concept of 'throwaway character' that Greater Reincarnation would have finally got rid off.

When you put an incentive, it's usually for the other players who would not impose a challenge upon themselves otherwise.

By putting a character progression incentive to a grind that only a few insane completionists would even dare to attempt, you're only risking to attract complaints by players who wants the bonus but are not crazy enough to attempt the insane task that it is when, in reality, there is no reason to take that risk.

If you want to make the completionists happy, give them something that they can show off after completing that crazy task. It'll be far more effective.

This is something turbine really should be careful about. Reintroducing the throwaway character concept would be a foolish mistake.

Yes, as they say, different strokes for different folks, but the negatives here FAR outweigh the positives in my opinion. As is, it's like using a flamethrower to kill the weeds in your garden. Sure, your weeds are gone but...

A single (or at most two) MORE POWERFUL versions of past life passives than current implementation for a newly reincarnated character would suffice.

Once I've heard that DDO was the MMO without grind. The current implementation of True Reincarnation regarding stackable past life feats step way beyond that threshold. Raids have a timer for a reason.

Favis
11-04-2009, 01:19 AM
These are the current Past Life feats:

A general feed back.
While it's nice if a feat can be usefull if you play a nother class it think the most important thing is that it's usefull if you stick to the same class again.
I think that as it's a bit strange if you should gain more swich class after reincarnating then you gain sticking to the same.


Passive Feats:
These are free, the feat tied to your dominant class is granted upon True Reincarnation.

Past Life: Barbarian
You were a barbarian in a past life. You occasionally find yourself filled with a nearly irresistable urge to smash boxes. With your head. Each time you acquire this feat you gain 10 additional hit points. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

1 passive ablity that is usefull for all classes.
+++++




Past Life: Bard
You were a bard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself humming a merry tune. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to saves vs. enchantments and illusions, and +1 Bardic Song usage. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

1 passive ablity that usefull for all classe but realy limited.
1 active ability that is usefull for Bards.
It's good to add songs as it's specific for bards. But one song feels a bit low compared to the bonus you gain from the other past life feats. 2 songs should be more accurate.



Past Life: Cleric
You were a cleric in a past life. You occasionally feel the presence of the divine. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Conjuration spells, +1 Turn Undead attempt per rest, and you Turn Undead as if you were two levels higher. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

1 passive ablity that usefull for some classes (eg classes that cast conj spells like heal and webb).
1 active ability that is usefull for Cleric .
1 passive ability that is usefull for Cleric. (this should realy be much more then two lvls as turning is so weak right now but the though is good)
Personaly I like the concept above it fits in well what is unique for Cleric (eg the "spontainues casting of cure spell and the ability to turn Undeads).



Past Life: Favored Soul
You were a favored soul in a past life. You occasionally find yourself wishing to leap off of tall things. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to spell penetration checks and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.

two passiv ablities that are usefull for some classes (eg offensive spellcasters)
+++++



Past Life: Fighter
You were a fighter in a past life. You occasionally find yourself filled with the urge to bark orders to your fellows in combat. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to attack rolls and +1 to the DC's of your tactical feats. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

1 passive ablity that is usefull for some classes (eg range and melee)
1 passive abilty that is usefull for some builds.
I think this i the right stuff
+++++



Past Life: Monk
You were a monk in a past life. You occasionally find yourself contemplating the mysteries of life. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to damage rolls. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

1 passive ablity that is usefull for some classes (eg range and melee)
but I feel it's a bit weak compared some of the other past life feats, +2 damage rolls would be more equal in value.



Past Life: Paladin
You were a paladin in a past life. You occasionally find yourself overcome with righteous fervor. Each time you acquire this feat you gain 5% more health when affecting by positive energy. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

1 passive ablity that is usefull for all classes.
It's not that it's not good but somehow it feels less usefull for paladin the for some other classes.
And I can realy make it fit into the Paladin "lore".
Would one extra Lay on Hands be to powerfull??
???




Past Life: Rogue
You were a rogue in a past life. You occasionally find yourself looking over your shoulder. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to saves vs. traps and deal +1 damage when sneak attacking. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

1 passive ablity that is usefull for all classes.
1 passive abilty that is usefull for some builds.
guess it's ok





Past Life: Sorcerer
You were a sorcerer in a past life. You occasionally find yourself daydreaming of dragons. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Evocation spells and gain 20 additional spell points. (These spell points are only available if you are able to cast spells.) This feat can be stacked up to three times.

2 passive ablity that is usefull for some classes.
Realy like this. Fit well with Sorcerer but are still usefull to some other type of builds (eg offencive Cleric, FvS, Wiz).
++++



Past Life: Wizard
You were a wizard in a past life. You occasionally find yourself desiring a good book. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to spell penetration checks and the DC's of wands you use. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

EDIT:
+2 to Spell Penetration Checks.
+2 to the DC's of Wands you use.
The Spell Penetration bonus affects all spells that are actually cast by the wizard.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2561911&postcount=6
To gain +2 to spell penetration on spells it's greate past life feat.
+++++
(Former comment: If it only gives +2 to spell penetration checks of wands and DC's of wands is clearly sucks.
And as wizard clearly is the class that will lose most (need to buy find scrolls ones more) on making a true incarnation it even more strange.
As this is so exream weak I think that you could give it to Bard in addition to the Bards extra songs as I think a Bard (with high UMD) that can't cast the spell might get more fun casting it from scrolls.
I don't have a clear counter sugestion what replace wizards feat with.
Only few idéers:
*) spell focus in necro ( conjugation and evocation are allready used and enchantment should be for Bard if for any class) + something else. )

Borror0
11-04-2009, 01:39 AM
Not only but mostly.
You'll have to explain your request better because I don't even understand why you'd want that.

tihocan
11-04-2009, 08:53 AM
Hey Eladrin ... I think it would be less daunting and frustrating to have the Passive Feats NOT stack...
I agree (wholeheartedly). That's too much, even for the more avid powergamers (even Vhlad seems discouraged by it....)

A while back, in the "Ask the devs" stuff, there was a question about what we liked most about DDO. My main answer was something like "I like that it's possible to make a great character without playing 40h a week". I'd like this to remain true... :rolleyes:

tihocan
11-04-2009, 08:56 AM
Also, it seems a bit foolish to go for completionist. Once a new class is added to DDO, you'll have to start re-grinding your +3/+4 tomes, which is going to take months... are there really people masochist enough for that?

kruggar
11-04-2009, 09:28 AM
hehe here comes the super project..

some friends decided to create a shared account to try the super uber completionist stufff.. maybe with 10 people helping out it can be done :)

assamite
11-04-2009, 12:33 PM
Have you looked at just how much play time that encompasses? Thats not simply 11 trips thru the game as you know it now, but 9 of those are done at the 36 point penalty. Which is more like 20+ trips from 1-20. AO had the minimum hours needed to complete an 'ideal' character like this and it was insane; probably more time than a good number of us have spent in game thus far.

Yes im well aware... And im looking forward to it. Lets see what we are looking at overall.
My fighter is melee so im only going to do cleric 1x, favored soul 1x, wiz 1x, sorce 1x
Monk+3 dmg
Barb+30 hp
Bard+6 save vrs enchants
Fighter+3 atk, +3 tactical DC
Pali 15% healing amp
Ranger +6 range dmg, +6 elemental resistance
Rogue +3 sneak atk dmg, +6 saves vrs traps
We all have an equal chance to obtain this.Those without all this extra **** will remain good toons if they are good toons. Low lvls these reincarnated people will be monsters yes but, In the end, all that time spent are the stats above... 60 lvls for +3 dmg, 60 lvls for 30 hp. I would gladly spend the time replaying all the content over and over again if it is actually getting me somewhere. Its giving us new goals to keep things interesting, and letting me take control of my characters progression, not forcing me to wait 3 days at a time to get the same gear everyone else has.
No its not the same 11 trips to the top, its the 4 trips to the top that hit the Dead End once they get all their gear and are turned into shroud farmers. I look forward to getting completion feat, as it has made me want to play classes i hate with passion *cough* arcane. Remember today its Epic DQ, tomorrow may bring epic Abbot <.< you may need all the epic toons you can find.

transtemporal
11-05-2009, 03:15 AM
NOW we're talkin with the past life feats. :D Not quite mandatory... but definitely an awesome reason to reincarnate. Good work eladrin and co! :D

SockMonkey
11-05-2009, 12:50 PM
You will be able to True Reincarnate as many times as you desire, though you'll stop gaining additional ability points after the second.

The XP charts are tied to how many points your character is (drow count as 4 higher), so your third life and fiftieth have the same 36 point XP charts.

ok thats cool, but I do have one burning question... Do you keep getting bigger? I want to be like Jeets ID. I want Gigantor the halfling....

Xenus_Paradox
11-05-2009, 03:36 PM
My take on TR...

Keep most of the feats as-is as of the latest update from Eladrin.

Only allow 2 or 3 passive feats to stack, chosen at the time of reincarnation, and retrainable via Fred. Keep Completionist for the really crazy folks.

Change the taken Ranger PL feat back to Ram's Might, but keep it at 3 clickies of 1 minute each.

Add enhancements that will give extra PL feat clickies and/or extend the duration (for buffs) and damage (for offensive/healing clickies).

Allow characters to count as being half character level in all classes for which they have passive feats selected for the purposes of purchasing enhancements. Thus a character who used to be a bard can take up to level 10 bard enhancements.

assamite
11-05-2009, 04:08 PM
ok thats cool, but I do have one burning question... Do you keep getting bigger? I want to be like Jeets ID. I want Gigantor the halfling....

Yes, I to would like my dwarf to be the size of a stout troll when im done XD

Cuth
11-05-2009, 09:48 PM
Edited: I like the new changes ... didn't see them stuck in there @ page 5.

ps: have they addressed what happens if you have 2 primary classes? Say for example a 9 bard, 9 ranger, 2 fighter build?

Visty
11-06-2009, 01:19 AM
ps: have they addressed what happens if you have 2 primary classes? Say for example a 9 bard, 9 ranger, 2 fighter build?
then its the bard (in your example)
it uses the feat for the class which symbol you have

Cyr
11-06-2009, 02:07 PM
The active feats still are rather lame. They also suffer from the major drawback of favoring builds that have lots of feats to throw away such as fighters or monks. This is an issue that is also apparent on the 'completionist' feat. If someone is really going to grind away eleven (or more in the future) classes to 20 with increased XP then that feat should be a free passive one.

Xenus_Paradox
11-06-2009, 03:14 PM
The active feats still are rather lame. They also suffer from the major drawback of favoring builds that have lots of feats to throw away such as fighters or monks. This is an issue that is also apparent on the 'completionist' feat. If someone is really going to grind away eleven (or more in the future) classes to 20 with increased XP then that feat should be a free passive one.

The best way to handle this would be to either have each taken PL feat, in addition to the current benefits, grant the effects of a popular feat (Combat Expertise for Fighter, Weapon Finesse for Rogue, etc.) or grant a similar but lesser effect (Fighter giving a -3 attack/+3 AC stance that doesn't stack with CE, for instance.)

Haunted
11-06-2009, 09:49 PM
My head hurts :)

For simplicity - each time you TR you get a bonus feat slot:

"Your past lives have increased your capacity to learn"

1st TR - bonus feat at level 1
2nd TR - add a bonus feat at level 2
3rd TR - etc..

You must meet all the normal pre-reqs.

Less flavor but so much easier.

Borror0
11-06-2009, 09:54 PM
For simplicity - each time you TR you get a bonus feat slot:
There are many things wrong with the idea but I'll just point out the most obvious: it would totally destroy the fighter class.

sephiroth1084
11-07-2009, 01:10 AM
Don't know if this was discussed/answered somewhere already, but what happens if you TR with a 10/10 split? Do you gain the past life of your first class? Your last? Both? Neither?

The new past life abilities, and some of the feats, have gotten me pretty excited about TR!

What does everyone think they would do for the Ultimate Being (TR through all classes, gain 3x past life bonuses relevant to your final build, past life ultimate feat for +2 skills and abilities)? I was mulling over this earlier and have no idea what I'd do with such a character. It would probably have to be some multiclassed build, just to make good use of everything...probably a level of rogue in there to gain access to enough skills for the bonus to be worthwhile.

Shall we speculate?:D

Favis
11-07-2009, 04:57 AM
Don't know if this was discussed/answered somewhere already, but what happens if you TR with a 10/10 split?
Then the people answere the question before (in this thread) they wrote it was the same class that was showed on as you icon in party.

Favis
11-07-2009, 05:18 AM
Summary:
Feats are good if they are effected by metamagic.




These are the current Past Life feats:

Purchasable Feats:
All purchasable past life feats now have a minimum level of 3 to purchase and can be purchased once. These cost a feat, and all have a passive and an active component.


Past Life: Bardic Dilettante
You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills, +1 to the DC's of your Enchantment spells, and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. (Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.)

If you are going to take spellfocus enchantment this would be a nice replacement. (+1 UMD etc).



Past Life: Initiate of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a cleric. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can produce a Healing Word effect five times per rest. Positive energy is channeled to heal light wounds of your target or damage undead for 1d4 hit points plus an additional 1d4 per two caster levels. Undead who make a

successful Will save reduce the damage by half.

Heal skill is only for flavor.
Will the feat be effected by meta magics, items and enhantments. It this case it's a good feat 70% better then the 2nd hafling dragonmark feat.
If it's not effected then it's almost useless at higher lvls.



Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
You recall more about your past life as a favored soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect ten times per rest. (Activate this favored soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels.)

The intresting question her is like above. Is the feat effected by meta magics, items and enhantments.




Past Life: Student of the Sword
You recall more about your past life as a fighter. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill, +1 to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus of armor and shields, and can remember your martial prowess three times per rest, increasing your base attack bonus to your level and granting +4 to hit.

Like a improved Mobility feat. The active part can be nice for some builds (like Wizard/Sorcerer melee build).



Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest. (Activate this sorcerer ability to blast a target with a ray of combined elements,

doing 1d12 damage of a random elemental type plus an additional 1d12 per three caster levels on impact. A successful Reflex save reduce the damage by half.


Like a improved MT feat. The question about the active part is: Will the feat be effected by meta magics, items and enhantments.



Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +1 to the DC's of spells you cast and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.

Nice feat (speaking about the DC). As I complainde a lot about the Wizard part lift feat I must say that this feat "makes up for it". You also has to remember that Wizard will be the class that loses most on a TR as he loses his incribed spell.
The feat fits well with the direction that the Wizard has been "moving" the last year.

jhorn02
11-07-2009, 11:44 AM
Pardon if this has already been covered in this thread. I scanned it, but may have missed it.

What bothers me about the current state of past life feats is that some are helpful to all classes (e.g. Barbarian, Monk, etc.) while some are only helpful if you resurrect as particular classes (e.g. Sorc, Wizard, etc.). I'd like to see the automatic feats for all classes include some element that would be helpful regardless of your previous and current class.

As it stands, I might want to start my Wizard as a Barbarian, but I'd never want to reverse that order.

Tanka
11-07-2009, 11:49 AM
As it stands, it seems the best use of Feats will definitely be the Monk feat, followed by either Barbarian or Rogue for a short-term DPS boost (great for boss fights, not so great for anything else).

Perhaps going from Sorc to Wiz might be worthwhile, but somehow I doubt it.

Havithal
11-09-2009, 08:04 AM
Post deleted by poster :P

Njhuy
11-09-2009, 06:01 PM
I love these new past life feats, and the whole TR progression.

Great job Eladrin and co, keep up the great work!



Personally I'll just do 1 character at a time. That way I have a stable of guys to run raids with, and 1 "lowbie" im leveling up. Once he caps, I'll reincarnate another guy. Rinse and repeat.

Sounds awesome to me, cant wait for it to go live. Dont change it a bit, it's perfect the way it is.

BlackPantha2
11-09-2009, 11:22 PM
Disappointed.

This game used to be about player skill. Now it's about player grind.

Now, to be the absolute best, you need to true reincarnate 32 times for a total bonus of:
+30hp, +6 saves vs enchantments/illusions, +3 spell DC to conjuration & evocation, +9 spell penetration, +120 spell points, +3 attack rolls, +3 damage rolls, another +6 damage for ranged weapons, +3 DC to tactical feats, +15% healing amplification, +6 stacking resistance to fire/sonic/electric/acid, +6 saves vs traps, +3 sneak attack damage, +2 to all skills, and +2 str, dex, con, int, wis, cha

My problem is, not being the absolute best is not fun. The knowledge that the character I am playing is not perfect makes playing that character less appealing. But the grind to make that character the best possible is not appealing. So I'm left with a choice: to play a character while a little voice in my head is constantly stabbing and poking me saying "you're not optimal!", or spend ~8 months (giving just 1 week per character cap) getting all the passives, to make just 1 character perfect (then I'm faced with a similar choice if I want to make my other characters perfect).

I've been an active subscriber for 3.5 years. This, along with redoing all the old content that I'm already tired of as epic with epic grind, will probably be the kind of thing that finally pushes me away.

Whatever it takes to have fun playing the game... And don't you forget it =P

QuantumFX
11-10-2009, 03:07 AM
Eladrin: Quite frankly, your current implementation sucks. The purchasable feats (except Completionist) appear to be OK but the stacking passive feats are a nightmare waiting to happen.

First, if I want to play an <insert class name> then you should be encouraging me to buy an extra slot. Not encouraging me to do a transitory reroll that I’m not going to invest myself into. I can see someone Reincarnating as a class that they hate with a passion and giving up and quitting DDO as they cannot back out of the True Reincarnation and can’t force themselves play the character to cap. (ex. Shade’s barbarian getting rerolled as a monk 3 times.)

Second, if character class hate doesn’t get you then I’m sure the epic grind will. Even the most hardened power gamers are looking at this and going “Uh oh.” That’s not a good sign.

Third, it makes future balancing of DDO into an even bigger nightmare. I cannot imagine what it would be like to play some quests with one of these rerolled characters. It’s been outlined above how much the stacking Spell Pen can hurt caster balance at high levels but you should also consider a low level Wizard who’s been TR before as a Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Rogue. Yeah, what a great way to introduce a player to the weaknesses of a class.

Fourth, it gives you guys WAY too much ability to screw up someone’s “perfect” character by giving us new character classes. This ties back into my second issue as you could implement a class that the player hates. Now you have the hate of playing a class they don't like added to the hate of having to regrind for tomes yet again.

Suggestion #1*:
Rip out the current passive feats and the completionist feat.

Rewrite the first 2 passive feats to act as substitutes for the <Class Stat> and <Class Skill> I and II enhancements. This means they will also lock out the enhancements they replace so that people don’t purchase enhancements they can’t use.

Rewrite the third passive feat to make the character eligible for the “Overachiever” feat. The Overachiever feats are the Class specific purchasable feats. This could act as a substitute for <Class Stat> III or replacements for a Tier II action boost if the character meets the class minimums.

Advantages
- Less overpowering than the Completionist feat and does not favor classes with extra feats available to them
- Allows the player to determine the amount of grind that they’re comfortable with. (It allows them to dump stat if they choose)
- It gives players more options with their action points.

Disadvantages
- Still a little bit Grindy
- Maintains a bit of the Class Hate aspect. But I think this is a bit more manageable as you only need to do it twice to get the passive bonuses and that’s only if the Stat bonus is useful to you.


Suggestion #2*:
Rip out the current past life system completely and simply allow a player to select a single feat from their previous selectable feat list for free. The player will not be able to use the feat until they meet the prereqs for it and will not be able to change it unless they do another True Reincarnation.

Advantages
- A whole lot less overpowering.
- Could provide some minor advantages for a fighter. (ex. a single Favored Enemy, or Mental Toughness to qualify for Arcane Archer)

Disadvantages
- We will probably see a lot of legacy khopesh users.


Suggestion #3*:
Once a character reaches a 36 point build then all their future True Reincarnations get to retain their inherent bonuses as if they did a Lesser or Greater Reincarnation.

Advantages:
- You can implement new classes without fear of alienating someone who’s achieved Completionist status. (Having to regrind for tomes - yet again.)

Disadvantages:
- It keeps the major design flaw of “I’ve got to True Reincarnate how many times?!?!”
- It keeps the major design flaw of “Oh GAWD I HATE that F---ING class.”
- Cue the “But why can’t I keep the benefits of my no ML INT tome when I turn into a 36pt build you big meanies!” crowd.

Suggestion #4*:
Don’t force us to cap a character. Pick an arbitrary level or favor amount to allow us to True Reincarnate a 34 or 36 pt character. (ex. Level 10 or 1,000 total favor.)

Advantages:
- It allows us to “Try out” a class without being forced to play it to cap.
- If a proper cut off point is selected then it could be a “pet project” as it could be done solo.

Disadvantages:
- I’m sure there are some. I just can’t think of them offhand.

Suggestion #5*:
Don’t bother with the Past Life feats. 36 point builds are enough incentive already.

* Note: These are not cumulative suggestions. The word “or” is implied between each suggestion. Also, if the post seems a bit discombobulated then you would be correct. I re/wrote this over a 6 hour span with multiple computer emergencies.

Borror0
11-10-2009, 03:38 AM
Disadvantages
- We will probably see a lot of legacy khopesh users.
I would add

Respeccing will be a nightmare and you'll get complaints about that over time
Might be a poor incentive for many classes as there are too little useful feats in DDO


Disadvantages:
- I’m sure there are some. I just can’t think of them offhand.
I would suggest "Still a bit grindy, not particularly fun and would require time better spent elsewhere" but YMMW.

Anthios888
11-10-2009, 10:43 AM
Will completionist feat count as a base stat increase for purposes of qualifying for certain skills and enhancements?

For example... power attack 13 str, combat expertise 13 str, grandmaster mountain stance 18 con, etc?

Gratch
11-10-2009, 02:07 PM
Will completionist feat count as a base stat increase for purposes of qualifying for certain skills and enhancements?

For example... power attack 13 str, combat expertise 13 str, grandmaster mountain stance 18 con, etc?

I would guess it wouldn't since completionist is a feat you can switch in and out. I dunno why you would switch it out... but since you can - it won't count.

Only base stats, tomes, and ability increases are used for feat qualification.

Haunted
11-10-2009, 02:19 PM
There are many things wrong with the idea but I'll just point out the most obvious: it would totally destroy the fighter class.

This in reference to my previous post about simply granting a bonus feat with each TR to grossly simplify the system.

For the record, I completely agree with Borror0 that this suggestion has the effect of eroding the fighters feat superiority, the greater the number of TRs a character has, as well as other probelms. "Totally destroy" the fighter is maybe overstated, but it gets us thinking about the correct point.

Even so, if we use fighter as an example, to be the best "figther" under the proposed system, you are going to spend the vast majority of your time playing other classes to get your passive bonuses. This doesnt seem fun, and will have the perverse effect that the folks pursuing being the best fighters will be unavailable to fill their role for several months while they pursue other classes.

Taken to its extreme, with the current proposed implementation and enough TRs, you almost start to get to a "classless" system. With enough passive stacking feats, and the right selection of new purchased feats, you start to get characters whose role might diverge significantly from their traditional class role in unexpected ways. I dont really know if this is good or bad (it might be a lot of fun to experiment given the time and determination), but it is a departure from the standard.

Additionally, because fighters, and to a lesser extent wizards, have more flexibility with purchased feats, we may see a migration away from the other classes to maximize the advantages of the new purchased feats.

So that is the backdrop for my original suggestion - flawed as it is.

In addition to simplicity, there are a few other marginal advantages to the "bonus feat per TR" proposal:
- You play the classes you want all the time - never needing to diverge for the majority of your career unless you wish to.
- Maintains class distinction (for the most part).
- Prevents migration to 1-2 classes as the base template for hardcore.
- Additional TRs beyond a certain point start to provide diminishing returns, making the system self-limiting on "power creep". Do you really want to level up again to 20 if your best remaining feat choice will have extremely marginal benefit?

Of course some folks will try to break class roles using extra feats (just as they will with the proposed system). With enough time and effort it might even be possible. However I think this is less likely to happen than implementing the stacking passive feat plus purchasable feat options.

As previously inferred, the classes with existing feat superiority (fighters / wizards) would reach the feat saturation point quickest. So a fighter who decides to stop TRing after only three past lives (nothing good left to take), may start to be overtaken by a barbarian or paladin who opts to TR eleven times before being content that they have the feats they want.

Like many problems, I think we all can realize that there is no "perfect" solution. All proposals will have advantages and disadvantages. I just hope we dont end up breaking our fun. And if we do - maybe Turbine will offer to fix it :)

Cyr
11-11-2009, 12:53 PM
How about an option to choose a different past life benefit upon a reroll instead of the normal one granted for class that let's you purchase enhancements for the class you just re-rolled from as if you were one level higher in the class then you actually are. Likewise, an option could be given for the same thing except for the race you previous were.

Rickpa
11-11-2009, 07:12 PM
It appears to me that rolling up a new character would be much more satisfying than TR. 2 build points is a gain of one minor (but helpful) stat point, or two less essential stat points. There appear to be no extra feats save the ones you spend normally during creation or level ups.


Eladrin calling the access to feats..... feats is a bit puzzling.
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

So my fighter, if I were to TR him, would do better to take Skill Focus: Intimidate, and Bullheaded before I took the fighter past life feat... which appears less desirable. That being said, it looks like having fighter TR as a fighter would be one of a couple of classes that would enjoy some benefit... if only for the fighter classes healthy collection of feats.

Angelus_dead
11-11-2009, 07:32 PM
Eladrin calling the access to feats..... feats is a bit puzzling.
You'd understand more if you finish reading it before replying. Clicking on "More posts by Eladrin" could be especially helpful.

Mylon
11-12-2009, 12:24 AM
I'd like to get more AP/enhancements with extra reincarnations.

Rickpa
11-12-2009, 11:40 AM
You'd understand more if you finish reading it before replying. Clicking on "More posts by Eladrin" could be especially helpful.

Finish reading? I have been scouring, and read everything I could BEFORE replying. I will indeed search "More Posts By Eladrin," and hope I will find what has eluded me now for weeks.

Rickpa
11-12-2009, 11:45 AM
Thanks! I found just what I wanted. http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2529144&postcount=85

This post should be pinned somewhere, and definitely it ought to be in the release notes for Lamannia... which it is not.

The_Phenx
11-13-2009, 05:38 PM
Thanks for posting these Eladrin, most of these Past Life feats are certainly better than what was proposed in the beginning. The passsive bonuses are interesting, though.

However as A_D mentioned above, Heal skill is useless and you've given that to the Cleric and Paladin Past Life feats. I'd say something simple as a single, extra use of Smite Evil for Soldier of the Faith instead of a +2 bonus to Heal would be far better and useful.


They could always make heal worth something. Since its currently pointless...

Say for every 5 pts into your heal skill you cast heal spells 2% faster... or something of that ilk...

knightgf
11-14-2009, 10:22 PM
I feel that the reward for being classed into everything is a bit too low, in my opinion. Only +2 to your skills and stuff? Oh come on Turbine! That's got to be a joke! Can't you do anything better, like brief immortality with a short cooldown, or maybe +10 to your skills and stuff? The reward for being classed into everything is just far too lame, in my opinion...

sephiroth1084
11-15-2009, 03:57 AM
I feel that the reward for being classed into everything is a bit too low, in my opinion. Only +2 to your skills and stuff? Oh come on Turbine! That's got to be a joke! Can't you do anything better, like brief immortality with a short cooldown, or maybe +10 to your skills and stuff? The reward for being classed into everything is just far too lame, in my opinion...

Remember, that you also gain 3x the past life benefits, for +3 attack, +3 damage, +6 damage on ranged attacks, +60 (120?) SP, +30 HP, +15% healing absorption, +6 (+9?) spell penetration, +6 saves vs. enchant/issuion, +3 bard songs, +3 turn undead, +3 trip/stun/sunder, +6 resistance vs. elements, +6 saves vs. traps, +3 SA damage, +3 to Evocation DCs, and +6 to the DCs of your wands.

Looking at all of that, I'd say The Ultimate Being should probably be a cleric with 2 or 3 levels splashed into something else for some bonus feats (maybe Cleric 17/Monk 2/Wizard or Fighter 1) set-up to be a battle caster/melee combatant.

godmode
11-15-2009, 06:58 AM
I really like this idea of reincarnation but a couple of things concern me.


I would like to see us given bonus feats for reincarnating so many times. Like every 4-5th reincarnation or perhaps every 3rd time you reincarnate as the same class you gain a bonus feat at least something that would work as an incentive to level class's that will have absolutly no benefit to our final incarnation.

I also feel that the completionist feat should be granted at lvl 1 for free. I mean come on how many hoops do we have to jump through. Im gonna level a character up 11+ times and i still have to replace one of my current feats in order to take this? As a rogue im fairly feat starved as it is(especially since i cant take a general feat as a class feat)

Also what about storage space. My bank is currently filled with bound items and nearly 2 pages of my backpack are bound items. these items will do me no good as a caster. so they will be left in the reincarnation bank. But what happens when i hit lvl 20 again and reincarnate if i leave items in that bank will they still be there for the next go round or does the reincarnation bank reset as well as everything else?


playing through so many classes and only really getting benefit from half of them for completionist feat should be looked at.

QuantumFX
11-15-2009, 12:46 PM
Another Idea to make the True Reincarnation grind less craptacular.

Suggestion #6 - Make upgrading to 34 and 36 point builds optional. Make Past life feats work like favor. (ex. Reincarnating a 36pt Barbarian results in the character getting all 3 passive barbarian past life feats.)

Advantages:
A lot less grind
Player can customize how they want to get at the Completionist feat by doing 32 point versions of classes they dislike

Disadvantages:
Class Hate

Suggestion #7 - Have a TRed passive feats become server account options and limit the power of the passive feats to 32/34/36pt builds and the Completionist feat to 36 pt builds. (ex. I TR my ranger on Sarlona 3 times. Since all my characters are incarnations of the guy sitting at the k/b that means all the characters on the Sarlona server get the advantage of the 3 passive Ranger feats. However, 32pt builds only get the benefit of 1, 34pt builds get the benefit of 2 and 36pt builds get access to all 3 and completionist if all classes are unlocked.)

Advantages:
Maintains the Grindiness that You guys obviously want to achieve.
Does not force players to reroll a good 36 pt build.
Does not continually force the player to keep a character away from raiding.
Minimizes class hate as a player can limit the tedious class to one character.

Althor
11-16-2009, 09:27 AM
The list of Past Life Feats quoted above are not free, you have to spend a normal feat slot to take them. The free Past Life Feats are the ones that these use as prerequisites (that don't do anything on their own, other than granting access to these).

All the past life feats seem extremely lame if you have to take them as a feat choice. It should be granted as a bonus for reincarnating.

rimble
11-16-2009, 01:20 PM
There is going to be some serious frustration without more information on these things. What type are the bonuses? How long are they? What schools are the spell-like effects in? Do Metamagics affect them? Does the Monk Unarmed bonus take you above the normal 2d10? And so on...

This is not something people can undo once they choose to do it. If they're not fully informed you will be held accountable for 'screwing them over'. Ironically, Reincarnation (in it's various forms) is being introduced to allow fixing/changing of characters, and simultaneously True Reincarnation is introducing an utterly unfixable/unchangeable mechanic.

It'd be nice if you have the capability to monitor how used TR is, not only just the moment of TR, but what sort of builds are doing it, and how often those characters are played as they progress through the levels again.

Aeneas
11-17-2009, 08:55 PM
completionist
Prereq: All Passive Past Life Feats. Minimum Level 3.
You Win Ddo! (and Lose At Life) You've Leveled To 20 In Every Class, And For Your Effort Can Take This Feat To Get A +2 Bonus To All Skills And Ability Scores. When More Classes Are Added, This Feat Will Deactivate And You Will Need To Gain Those Past Lives Before This Benefit Reactivates. Kill Yourself.

Rofl!!!!!!

Ollathir
11-18-2009, 11:46 AM
So to sum this up, the passive feats are granted automaticaly; ie, if your so inclined to TR 32 times with one character... well, thats it. You've done everything you can to have the very best character to play the game. Hope you don't ...*ahem I mean hope it helps you play better.

Personally I see nothing here that substitutes having skill as a player. To get better DC's, more HP's, more DPS, I may do this if I have others I run with interested but for now just seems mute. I would worry though in the future about people complaining similar to the 32 point build favor grind complaints.


On a side note can anyone tell me when we may see something usefull for a Cleric in the game again? Aside from ToD ring sets which are awesome for both Sorcs and Clerics. *pun*.

Ie,


Past Life: Cleric
You were a cleric in a past life. You occasionally feel the presence of the divine. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Conjuration spells, +1 Turn Undead attempt per rest, and you Turn Undead as if you were two levels higher. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

I can't think of any situation that I've found myself in where I wished Conjuration based spells, for a Cleric, had a better DC. As for Turn Undead, do people actually try to do this still? I thought anything relating to Turn Undead was given to the noob Devs as a form of Hazing. I mean if it worked I could see maybe for shock and awe factor a Cleric,Cleric,Cleric Sorc build. :)

Thrudh
11-18-2009, 11:50 AM
Past Life: Berserker's Fury
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You gain +1 hit point per character level, have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest. (Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your rage will last for 30 seconds.)

How does this work if you are a barbarian in your current life as well? Completely worthless minor rage? Or can it just give you an extra normal rage?

Angelus_dead
11-18-2009, 01:06 PM
I can't think of any situation that I've found myself in where I wished Conjuration based spells, for a Cleric, had a better DC.
Doomsphere.

Junts
11-18-2009, 05:43 PM
So to sum this up, the passive feats are granted automaticaly; ie, if your so inclined to TR 32 times with one character... well, thats it. You've done everything you can to have the very best character to play the game. Hope you don't ...*ahem I mean hope it helps you play better.

Personally I see nothing here that substitutes having skill as a player. To get better DC's, more HP's, more DPS, I may do this if I have others I run with interested but for now just seems mute. I would worry though in the future about people complaining similar to the 32 point build favor grind complaints.


On a side note can anyone tell me when we may see something usefull for a Cleric in the game again? Aside from ToD ring sets which are awesome for both Sorcs and Clerics. *pun*.

Ie,



I can't think of any situation that I've found myself in where I wished Conjuration based spells, for a Cleric, had a better DC. As for Turn Undead, do people actually try to do this still? I thought anything relating to Turn Undead was given to the noob Devs as a form of Hazing. I mean if it worked I could see maybe for shock and awe factor a Cleric,Cleric,Cleric Sorc build. :)

dc 38 trip on cometfall?

Turial
11-19-2009, 06:37 AM
How does this work if you are a barbarian in your current life as well? Completely worthless minor rage? Or can it just give you an extra normal rage?

Depends on if it stacks or is the same as one of the current barbarian rages.

Thrudh
11-19-2009, 11:30 AM
Depends on if it stacks or is the same as one of the current barbarian rages.

If it stacks it might be worth something.

barecm
11-19-2009, 12:37 PM
What happens if you multiclass 10/10? Which class is considered "Dominant"?

binnsr
11-19-2009, 12:40 PM
What happens if you multiclass 10/10? Which class is considered "Dominant"?

class displayed on your party icon wins.

in general, it's alphabetical, with monk, then favored soul tagged onto the end (most likely its table order in the databases that causes this)

Velexia
11-19-2009, 02:14 PM
In my opinion, they suck so bad that I should be given a free feat just for looking at them. No really, these should be free. Also, why can't they be taken at level 1? (Not that I would waste a feat on any of them).

assamite
11-23-2009, 01:31 AM
In my opinion, they suck so bad that I should be given a free feat just for looking at them. No really, these should be free. Also, why can't they be taken at level 1? (Not that I would waste a feat on any of them).

Fighters isn't to bad <.< it's gona be savin my S@B toon 14AP :)

QuantumFX
11-23-2009, 09:02 PM
Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill, deal increased unarmed damage (one step higher than normal on the unarmed combat chart), and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time. (When you make a successful Reflex save to avoid damage, you suffer no damage instead of half damage.)

Eladrin - You guys should consider changing the feat to “deal an increased damage die while centered”

Advantages:

It would give reincarnated monks a reason to use something other than handwraps. You guys put a lot of work into the Dream Edge and Green Steel Kamas. It would be a shame to waste that effort.
It would give a benefit to monk splash builds that actually use monk weapons. (ex. Big F’in Stick builds.)
If you ever figure out Whirling Steel Strike it wouldn’t predestine the feat to uselessness. (A centered WSS monk would be the equivalent to a Bastard Sword user. Also, it would give elven monks their own niche.)