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The_Ick
10-09-2009, 02:50 PM
I have been mulling over this TR logic for the last 2 days trying to figure out what exactly about it rubs me the wrong way and I think it is this:

Between Reincarnation, +2 tomes, and 32pt builds being sold on the DDO Store it seems like all the accomplishments that VIPs have worked towards for the last couple years are drastically being devalued. A new player can get a 32pt build with a full set of +2 tomes for less then I initially paid for the game. It just doesn’t seem right.

And those of us that have been playing and making different toon builds (to keep from getting board) are now getting the shaft because we can’t reallocate levels, with Greater Reincarnation and we loose all our tomes with True Reincarnation. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t

I paid my money and I enjoyed the game, but just seems like Turbine had an opportunity to throw its long term players a bone and instead they turned a blind eye. We wanted the respec so we could fix our toons and take advantage of the new enhancements lines. Turbine failed to give us what we need in lieu of making a buck for themselves.

I think the DDO Store is a great idea and there is nothing wrong with making a buck, guess is it just the way they did it that rubs me the wrong way. When the DDO Store launched they said you wouldn’t be able to buy your way to the end game. It seems like they are starting to blur that line. I enjoy DDO, and will continue to play, but I must admit that I am not a fan of this emerging pattern from Turbine.

Just my 2 cp for what it is worth...

Samadhi
10-09-2009, 02:57 PM
Personally, I'm still a large believer that

Player Skill >> Gear >> Build

By this logic, not really concerned about new folks being able to buy more stuff to catch up quicker. Hopefully, either directly or indirectly (them staying with the game longer) it will generate more revenue. That would kind of be like me complaining because I hit 1750 back when it was really a challenge (like all quests but titan on E or thereabouts) versus these days where it will happen without you even noticing at times. The only concern I have is that new players will think they can buy their way to the top; because they are going to be sorely mistaken.

krud
10-09-2009, 03:05 PM
It's a tough act balancing what vets think they deserve without making new people feel so behind the 8 ball that they give up soon after joining. I really don't think these devalue anything I've accomplished in game. Does a bunch of newbs zerging a raid that you pioneered devalue your trip through? I don't think so, and neither should this. Do you really expect newbs to go thru the same three years that we've gone thru to get to this point? Will you or this game even be around that long? in the same incarnation? I see nothing wrong with accelerating the newb process a little in order to merge the newbs with the vets a little sooner. My e-peen won't suffer one bit. Besides, even if it did, I could always TR into a bigger size! :D

Kasen_Darksword
10-09-2009, 03:30 PM
Well the +2 tomes are only for sale this weekend and they do bind to character. They may offer them again at some point but they wont be their everyday.

The_Ick
10-09-2009, 03:36 PM
It's a tough act balancing what vets think they deserve without making new people feel so behind the 8 ball that they give up soon after joining. I really don't think these devalue anything I've accomplished in game. Does a bunch of newbs zerging a raid that you pioneered devalue your trip through? I don't think so, and neither should this. Do you really expect newbs to go thru the same three years that we've gone thru to get to this point? Will you or this game even be around that long? in the same incarnation? I see nothing wrong with accelerating the newb process a little in order to merge the newbs with the vets a little sooner. My e-peen won't suffer one bit. Besides, even if it did, I could always TR into a bigger size! :D

I suppose. I think the disappointment of not being able to fix a couple of my characters with their version of the respec and seeing +2 tomes up for sale got to me. I know +2 tomes are less rare then they used to be, but i still consider them a rare drop and i don't think rare drops should be sold in the DDO store.

My concern is that we are only on the 1st update and already bluring the line. Has me a little concerned to say the least.

Dworkin_of_Amber
10-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Well the +2 tomes are only for sale this weekend and they do bind to character. They may offer them again at some point but they wont be their everyday.

BtC or BtA???
There is a BIG difference.... and I would love to know which is the case?

silverraven
10-09-2009, 04:29 PM
Why not just buy a capped character? easy peasy.... This store business is getting out of hand. I dont know even what to think I'm just stunned.

Noctus
10-09-2009, 05:36 PM
I suppose. I think the disappointment of not being able to fix a couple of my characters with their version of the respec and seeing +2 tomes up for sale got to me. I know +2 tomes are less rare then they used to be, but i still consider them a rare drop and i don't think rare drops should be sold in the DDO store.

My concern is that we are only on the 1st update and already bluring the line. Has me a little concerned to say the least.


This is also my concern.

+2 tomes range in the level of loot like Bloodstones, Planar Girds, Large Ingredients and somesuch, which should not be in the store.

The sense of achievement when i finally got one of those major loot drops will be hugely diluted if those things can be acquired by a 1 minute exploration to the store.

wizzy_catt
10-09-2009, 05:45 PM
I have been mulling over this TR logic for the last 2 days trying to figure out what exactly about it rubs me the wrong way and I think it is this:

Between Reincarnation, +2 tomes, and 32pt builds being sold on the DDO Store it seems like all the accomplishments that VIPs have worked towards for the last couple years are drastically being devalued. A new player can get a 32pt build with a full set of +2 tomes for less then I initially paid for the game. It just doesn’t seem right.

And those of us that have been playing and making different toon builds (to keep from getting board) are now getting the shaft because we can’t reallocate levels, with Greater Reincarnation and we loose all our tomes with True Reincarnation. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t

I paid my money and I enjoyed the game, but just seems like Turbine had an opportunity to throw its long term players a bone and instead they turned a blind eye. We wanted the respec so we could fix our toons and take advantage of the new enhancements lines. Turbine failed to give us what we need in lieu of making a buck for themselves.

I think the DDO Store is a great idea and there is nothing wrong with making a buck, guess is it just the way they did it that rubs me the wrong way. When the DDO Store launched they said you wouldn’t be able to buy your way to the end game. It seems like they are starting to blur that line. I enjoy DDO, and will continue to play, but I must admit that I am not a fan of this emerging pattern from Turbine.

Just my 2 cp for what it is worth...
In a way turbine make more money by "free to play". They first let you play for free and get you attached to it, then you'd want to spend more and more money on new contents and gears. Not to mention how many rich guys out there spending $100+ a month on mana potions for pug groups. But here's a catch, whether to spend the money or play the game its up to you not turbine or anyone else. DDO is a great game just sometimes devs do some @#$% things to it and mess it up, sometimes they give compensations sometimes they don't that's the way turbine works get used to it.

Arianrhod
10-09-2009, 06:33 PM
I dunno, I just can't get all that worked up about it.

People who played more than I do always had more/better stuff than me anyway. Now people who spend more will, too. As long as the game stays playable without the "optional" investment of more time/money than I care to spend, it doesn't bother me all that much that others have stuff I don't, or that they got it a different way.

Mekkah
10-09-2009, 07:35 PM
I, for one, as a "long term player" are welcoming the changes with open arms.

Yeah, sure, there are some things that *I* would do differently if I were a dev, but let's face it....YOUR satisfaction, as ONE player and ONE sub doesn't amount to anything.

Think of how many new players have dropped cash or even just signed up as a VIP since Sept. 1st.

Another useless rant about "I don't like this and I don't like that."

Blah blah blah.

As some others have stated in the forums, there's one in every bunch. You can never make everyone happy.

Same advice to you as others have heard: If you don't like it...leave.

GreenGurgler
10-09-2009, 08:02 PM
Well the +2 tomes are only for sale this weekend and they do bind to character. They may offer them again at some point but they wont be their everyday.

I will bet my left arm that as soon as Mod 1 launches with TR in it, these will become a permanent for sale item.

Create the demand,
Then sell the fix.

E V I L

The_Ick
10-09-2009, 08:28 PM
I, for one, as a "long term player" are welcoming the changes with open arms.

Yeah, sure, there are some things that *I* would do differently if I were a dev, but let's face it....YOUR satisfaction, as ONE player and ONE sub doesn't amount to anything.

Think of how many new players have dropped cash or even just signed up as a VIP since Sept. 1st.

Another useless rant about "I don't like this and I don't like that."

Blah blah blah.

As some others have stated in the forums, there's one in every bunch. You can never make everyone happy.

Same advice to you as others have heard: If you don't like it...leave.

From the looks at the responses in this thread I think you might be the "one", not me... :D

Doomcrew
10-09-2009, 08:31 PM
The +2 tomes bind to account.

Cheers

Spiffyspiffy
10-11-2009, 03:36 AM
RE: +2 Tomes in store.... Given the number of such tomes in the AH, on even a new server like Cannith, one should not complain about any non-binding item being in the DDO store. I suspect any cost-analysis would determine that buying from the AH will be cheaper.

RE: 32 point builds, I started on 9/5/09, rolled a human, got 400 favor, rolled a drow, and now have over 2000 favor. Any such accomplishment that can be done without a guild, untwinked, in under 30 days real time, is hardly much of an accomplishment.

RE: "less then I initially paid for the game", the game can currently be purchased for $6 including shipping which comes with 30 days VIP. Just buying the shared bank account that you (and me) get for being VIP is more than that. Roughly $19. A +2 Tome of Supreme Ability (all stats) will cost either $40 for two 1500 point packages, or $50 for one 5000 point package while it remains on sale. Get the 5k package, because you haven't bought the 32point builds yet.

Orratti
10-11-2009, 04:52 AM
Suck it up man. Those who are paying for the build and the tomes are still in the boat with the rest of us when it comes to reincarnation. They are either going to have to do the grind and then maybe do the grind again or be surpassed by the ones who will do it and they won't be able to buy their way out of that.

Zhorge
10-11-2009, 05:53 AM
Every time a game makes a change there's always a contigent that whines about it. When stabs got nerfed in Eve... Whine fest. When it became easier to do G3 in Mabi... Whine fest. The rogues whined in WoW when they could no longer get perma stun lock... It goes on and on and on and on...


So, here's the deal: Games expand and evolve or they die as they lose more people to attrition than they attract.


The clearest recent example I've seen is in Guild Wars. There hasn't been anything meaningfully new in years. So except for MMORPG burn-outs buying the $30 combo pack, we don't see much growth. Sure, there are still a lot of semi-active old-timers (like myself) on the guild roles because, well, you "play for free" and we've already incurred the cost-sink to get into the game. And, during this recession we've had a big swing-up in our guild base participation. The other day I think I saw, maybe, 15 people on-line at the same time. Actually playing.

But when times are good and wallets are fat... I'm lucky to see four or five people on in my relatively large guild. And that might included three AFK in the guild hall! Leaving active players few and far between...

So Turbine is doing what Turbine has to do to increase its customer base -- or die. And you can be mature and go along with the flow knowing that while things are "easier" for the noobs (like myself who just started playing) the option is stagnation and/or cancellation.

The10man
10-11-2009, 06:50 AM
I will bet my left arm that as soon as Mod 1 launches with TR in it, these will become a permanent for sale item.

Create the demand,
Then sell the fix.

E V I L

Yup saw this coming as soon as I heard they were in the store. I had just looted a +2 str and a +2 con tome and was feeling pretty happy then I heard you could buy em. So much for trading them for the iron I need for my boots. Why not just put bloodstones, planar girds, icy raiments, etc up there and eliminate all the stuff that keeps us with something to do at end game while on raid timers? Larges too that way I can never run shroud again.

This stuff is getting outta hand. Say what you will about if you don't like it leave or whatever, but if you don't feel like you got the shaft when a rare drop from the end game quests is available in the store then we live on different planets.

Hendrik
10-11-2009, 06:59 AM
BtC or BtA???
There is a BIG difference.... and I would love to know which is the case?

BtA.

Verified.

Monkey_Archer
10-11-2009, 07:03 AM
If they really wanted to make more money off TR, and have long term players use it, they would allow us to keep our tomes ;)

VonBek
10-11-2009, 07:53 AM
Not worried. I haven't seen "player skill" in the store.

Astria
10-11-2009, 08:21 AM
I bought some exp potions for my first favored soul when the store first launched. Haven't really used it for much else besides that... the store barely influences the way I play the game. If the player next to me wants to waste money buying things that can be earned by actually playing the game, that's his business.

Uska
10-11-2009, 09:04 AM
Well the +2 tomes are only for sale this weekend and they do bind to character. They may offer them again at some point but they wont be their everyday.

bind to account

NinetyNineTails
10-11-2009, 10:15 AM
Here's your heuristic; if you can twink with it, it's for sale.

Rekker
10-11-2009, 11:27 AM
RE: "less then I initially paid for the game", the game can currently be purchased for $6 including shipping which comes with 30 days VIP. Just buying the shared bank account that you (and me) get for being VIP is more than that. Roughly $19. A +2 Tome of Supreme Ability (all stats) will cost either $40 for two 1500 point packages, or $50 for one 5000 point package while it remains on sale. Get the 5k package, because you haven't bought the 32point builds yet.

If you bought the game when it originally came out it was probably $49.99

chton13
10-11-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm curious to those who make the argument that selling 32 pt builds, +2 tomes etc doesn't effect my game and makes Turbine cash why not sell level 20 characters or raid loot? Neither of these would effect my game, plus they would make Turbine money. So why not sell them as well, I mean why not sell DT armor, runes, large shroud ingredients, GS blanks.. I mean none of this should effect my game or my accomplishments, all would make Turbine money, it would help balance out the edge a vet has (which is apparently wrong in some way) so why not sell everything? Do you draw the line at non bound gear, if so why? The slippery slope is already been entered, its' only a matter of time before the inevitable slide begins. Think you won't see +3 tomes for sale, especially with this new reincarnate scheme... If this is the model for future MMOs well I hope it's a failure. Of course a fool and his money are lucky enough to come together in the first place.

Orratti
10-11-2009, 01:20 PM
I did make the argument to buy character levels as an example of showing that buying your way around the grind was effectively the same thing as buying your way around having to play to earn rewards. At the same time if you can buy everything else in order to keep you from having to do in game work for it why not? Where exactly should the line be drawn? I'd like to be able to skip having to play levels on a character that I have gear waiting on. I have already done the quests before and redoing them just to get to the gear I have waiting is a time investment that perhaps I would like to skip.

deathbyarsenic
10-11-2009, 04:13 PM
I agree with the (second?) posters comment about skill>gear>build.

Scene 1:

I play for a long time and hit cap. At this point I should have skill. And gear. If it was my first toon then the build may or may not suck. I get invited to a raid. I don't suck because I played my class all the way and know it by heart. Raid succeeds, everyones happy. Or it fails, everyones annoyed, but lets assume it was a good group, so people laugh it off.

Scene 2:

13 y/o Johnny gets his folks to buy him TP up the gazoo. He makes a toon, buys XP for it (I think thats how it works) and hits cap. Then he buys all his gear, items, etc. This is all done in a 20min period. Johnny then gets invited to a raid. Being 13, he goes: BOOYAA!
OH SNAP, HES A CLERIC.
Because he did not play his toon legit he sucks. Raid fails, people QQ, his name gets put on the forums and possibly blacklisted. He will NEVER be as good as the person who played a toon and poured sweat and blood (and time) into it.


I use 13 just as an example. I have met 13-14 y/o's in this game that are better then alot of the older players. Johnny could be 32 however.

Now, I don't know if this stuff can even be bought, I just got back to the game and have yet to view the store. Heck, I am still deciding on what plan to go.

Addressing another post:

Orratti: I agree with your post. Why do the grind for the 5th time? Well, all games have a grind really. At least most like this. In my mind it goes like, sure, you have a 20 Wiz, so you make a Barb. They are so different its not even funny.

On the other hand you have a valid point. If I make a 20 Wiz and I make a Sorc.. basically the same...

My idea for this is that IF you could make "insta-capped" toons that you have to already have a Toon of that level that you did the grind with. This stops players from being the Johnny kid I mentioned. How you can do this with XP items I am not sure. Just a thought

btw, My account is from 2k6, and I had one even older then that at one point. I have been around...