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ariel7
10-09-2009, 02:42 PM
To make it more convenient for everyone, I've listed them here.



Correct, you gain the Past Life of your dominant class. If you True Reincarnate again, you keep your old Past Life feat from your first incarnation, and add a second from your dominant class from this life (if it was different).

Here's the current list of Past Life feats:

Past Life: Berserker's Fury
You recall more about your past life as a barbarian. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest. Activate this barbarian ability to enter a bloodthirsty frenzy, granting you a +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Morale bonus to Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. When the rage ends, however, you will lose the hit points granted to you by increased Constitution and become fatigued. Your rage will last for 30 seconds.

Past Life: Bardic Dilettante
You recall more about your past life as a bard. You have +1 to all Charisma based skills and can Inspire Courage three times per rest. Activate this bard ability to rally your companions, giving them a +1 morale bonus to saves against fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls before enhancements.

Past Life: Initiate of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a cleric. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can produce a Healing Word effect three times per rest. Positive energy is channeled to heal light wounds of your target or damage undead for 1d4 hit points plus an additional 1d4 per two caster levels. Undead who make a successful Will save reduce the damage by half.

Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
You recall more about your past life as a favored soul. You have +2 to your Diplomacy skill and can call down the wrath of your former deity, producing an Avenging Light effect five times per rest. Activate this favored soul ability to cause a searing orb of radiant light to smite your target, dealing 1d8 hit points of light damage plus an additional 1d8 per three caster levels. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half.

Past Life: Student of the Sword
You recall more about your past life as a fighter. You have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can remember your martial prowess three times per rest, increasing your base attack bonus to your level and granting +4 to hit.

Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
You recall more about your past life as a monk. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can enter an evasive trance once per rest, granting the evasion feat for a short period of time.
Note: You must meet normal evasion requirements for this one. No medium or heavy armor, no heavy encumbrance.

Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
You recall more about your past life as a paladin. You have +2 to your Heal skill, and can recall your bravery three times per rest, casting the Lionheart spell on yourself or an ally. Activate this paladin ability to imbue yourself or a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
You recall more about your past life as a ranger. You have +2 to your Spot skill and can produce a Ram's Might effect once per rest. Activate this ranger ability to cause your hands increase in size, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.

Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
You recall more about your past life as a rogue. You have +1 to all skills and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels..

Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest.

Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.

Edit:

Caster Level is considered to be equal to your character level.

ariel7
10-09-2009, 02:43 PM
nvm

Spiffyspiffy
10-09-2009, 08:06 PM
+2 to heal? I'm sorry, really?

There may as well not be a past life feat for Clerics or Paladins. Relife for the +2 build points, okay, but ignore the feat.

GreenGurgler
10-09-2009, 08:08 PM
Thank you for posting this.

After reading these, does anybody else have the word UNDERWHELMING coming to mind??

THIS is all you get ?

:(

oberon131313
10-09-2009, 08:13 PM
Thank you for posting this.

After reading these, does anybody else have the word UNDERWHELMING coming to mind??

THIS is all you get ?

:(

no, you also get the ability to completely reroll a character and keep all items that are on it, in the bank, etc. You also get 2 additional stat points, and I believe a few bonus hitpoints too. It's not overpowering because it's not intended to be.
I think it's a neat way to go about character respec.

Angelus_dead
10-09-2009, 08:13 PM
THIS is all you get ?
Why should you even get anything?

It's a respec; the only way to change your class levels. It shouldn't also be a power-boost.

amyndris
10-09-2009, 08:27 PM
Just a few "gut feelings" for min/maxxed characters.

Barbarian: Rogue-> ? -> Barbarian.
Rogue for +10 damage, +5 hit
Options:
Fighter for +4 hit
Ranger for +2 Str (+1 hit, +1 dmg), +2 damage.
Both choices aren't very good.

Bard: Sorcerer -> Fighter -> Bard (Melee). Sorceror -> Cleric -> Bard (Support 1). Sorcerer -> Bard -> Bard (Support 2).
Sorcerer for 105 SP
Fighter for +9 to hit
Cleric for 11d4 to heal 3x a day
Bard for +1 to UMD, Perform and other CHA skills

Cleric: Sorcerer -> Cleric -> Cleric (Heal). Sorceror -> Fighter -> Cleric (Melee)
Sorcerer for 105 SP
Fighter for +9 to hit
Cleric for 11d4 to heal 3x a day

FvS: See Cleric.

Fighter: Fighter -> Barbarian -> Fighter (Tank). Rogue -> ??? -> Fighter (DPS).
Fighter for +2 Intim, +4 to hit
Barbarian for +2 Intim. The +4 Str (+2 hit, +2 dmg), +4 Con (+40 HP), +2 Will Save, -2 AC from Rage might not be a good choice due to the AC debuff.
Rogue for +10 damage, +5 hit
Options:
Fighter for +4 hit
Ranger for +2 Str (+1 hit, +1 dmg), +2 damage.
Both choices aren't very good.

Monk: Rogue -> Fighter -> Monk (Non-fist). Rogue -> Wizard -> Monk (Fist).
Rogue for +10 damage, +5 hit
Wizard for +2 Con, 10 free Super Magic Missiles
Fighter for +9 hit

Paladin: Sorcerer -> Fighter -> Paladin (Tank). Sorcerer -> Cleric -> Paladin (Support)
Sorcerer for 105 SP
Fighter for +2 Intim, +4 hit
Cleric for 11d4 heal 3x a day


Ranger: Sorcerer -> Rogue -> Ranger
Sorceror for 105 SP
Rogue for +10 damage, +5 hit

Rogue: Rogue -> Fighter -> Rogue (DPS). Rogue -> Ranger -> Rogue (Trapmonkey)
Rogue for +1 to all skills
Fighter for +9 hit
Ranger for +2 spot

Sorcerer: Sorcerer -> Wizard -> Sorcerer
Sorcerer for 105 SP
Wizard for Super Magic Missile, +2 Concentration

Wizard: See Sorcerer

Really, the breakdown is basically:
Lower than +1 BAB/level and Melee?: Take Fighter
Have mana?: Take Sorcerer
Aren't tanking and Melee?: Take Rogue
Want to be gimped?: Take Barbarian or Paladin

Let me know if you think I'm utterly insane.

Aesop
10-09-2009, 08:44 PM
How about something a little different


Memories of a Stalker: +1 to Hide and Move Silently. +1 to Sneak Attack rolls to hit and +2 to Sneak Attack rolls to damage. These Bonuses Increase by a like amount at levels 10 and 20. Additionally this Feat can be used as a prerequisite for Bow Strength (in place of Power Attack/Weapon Spec: Ranged/ Combat Expertise)

This Feat is only available to Characters that had levels of Ranger or Rogue


Echoes of the Divine: +1 Concentration and Heal. +10% to all Conjuration: Healing Spells. Words of Healing (Conjuration:Healing effect) 1d4 per 2 Character Levels. This effect also removes Fatigue and Fear effects. Usable 3/rest. The number of uses and the bonus to skills increases by 1 at levels 10 and 20.

This feat is available to former Paladins, Clerics and Favored Souls


Breathe of the Aesthetic: +1 Concentration and Tumble. +1 AC while tumbling. If the character can generate Ki they generate an additional 1 Ki on a Critical Hit. These benefots increase by 1 at levels 10 and 20.

This Feat is available to former Monks


Arcane Recollection: +2 Concentration. +10 Spell Points at 1st level and 5 each level thereafter. 1 level 1 Arcane Spell Slot chosen from the Sorceror/Wizard list. The Skill Point Bonus increases by 1 at levels 10 and 20. This feat also meats the prerequisite for the Arcane Archer PrE.

This feat is available to former Bards, Sorcerors, and Wizards.


Jack of All Trades: +1 to all Skills. This benefit Increase by 1 at level 10.

Available to former Bards, Rangers andRogues

Muscle Memory: +1 to Weapon Damage Rolls. at level 10 the character also gains a +1 to attack rolls. At level 20 the character also gains a +1 bonus to confirm critical hits and critical damage (before mulitplier)

Available to former Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers


eh... probably could still use some work... just kinda off the cuff

Aesop

Turial
10-09-2009, 09:06 PM
....
Arcane Recollection: +2 Concentration. +10 Spell Points at 1st level and 5 each level thereafter. 1 level 1 Arcane Spell Slot chosen from the Sorceror/Wizard list. The Skill Point Bonus increases by 1 at levels 10 and 20.
...

eh... probably could still use some work... just kinda off the cuff

Aesop

Though I may be wrong but wont everyone just take shield?

Aesop
10-09-2009, 09:10 PM
Though I may be wrong but wont everyone just take shield?

heh... probably... like I said it could use some work...

Aesop

ps: whoops I forgot to add something on the end there.

Aesop
10-09-2009, 09:12 PM
Though I may be wrong but wont everyone just take shield?

alternately we could just get something akin to a cantrip... like the Acid Splash and charge 5 SP. 1d3 +1 per caster level... or something like that

Turial
10-09-2009, 09:23 PM
Would these be for simply having the past life or would they cost feats like the real ones do?

Depravity
10-09-2009, 09:25 PM
Though I may be wrong but wont everyone just take shield?

Unless they're clerics - then it would be jump.


Would these be for simply having the past life or would they cost feats like the real ones do?

I think turbine has the right idea - you're already getting a respec and two extra ability points already, a freebie feat would be overkill. Their problem is that most of the past life feats aren't really worth a feat slot to most people.

Turial
10-09-2009, 09:36 PM
Unless they're clerics - then it would be jump.



I think turbine has the right idea - you're already getting a respec and two extra ability points already, a freebie feat would be overkill. Their problem is that most of the past life feats aren't really worth a feat slot to most people.

That is a good thing though. Its good that a true reincarnation isnt a gateway into amazing feats or free feats. Its nice that old 28 point vets can make their favorite characters, or in some cases only characters into 32 point builds. It is also nice that the truly build focused can grind out to the 36 points.

ariel7
10-09-2009, 09:45 PM
I like the idea of building towards an offensive casting pure-class favored soul by first capping as a Sorcerer. Then as a Wizard.

Past Life: Arcane Prodigy
You recall more about your past life as a sorcerer. Your maximum spell points are increased by 10 at first level, and 5 spell points for each additional level and can produce random elemental damage spells ten times per rest.

Past Life: Arcane Initiate
You recall more about your past life as a wizard. You have +2 to your Concentration skill and can cast the magic missile spell ten times per rest, creating a missile of magical energy that darts forth and unerringly strikes its target inflicting 1d4+1 force damage. For every 2 caster levels beyond first you gain an additional missile, maximum 10 missiles.

Favored Soul gets the at will searing light, plus 10 magic missiles plus 10 elemental damage spells + 105 spell points + 2 concentration and with maximize, empower and all that will be nice bonuses. Not using spell points spamming 3 spells for a nice chunk of time then going into a seriously inflated spell point pool AND making sue of all that caster gear you collected along the way to capping....twice.

BAM! That's kicking it up a notch.

amyndris
10-09-2009, 09:52 PM
Favored Soul gets the at will searing light, plus 10 magic missiles plus 10 elemental damage spells + 105 spell points + 2 concentration and with maximize, empower and all that will be nice bonuses. Not using spell points spamming 3 spells for a nice chunk of time then going into a seriously inflated spell point pool AND making sue of all that caster gear you collected along the way to capping....twice.

BAM! That's kicking it up a notch.

That only works if Super Magic Missiles don't suffer from armor check penalties.

Depravity
10-09-2009, 10:19 PM
That is a good thing though. Its good that a true reincarnation isnt a gateway into amazing feats or free feats. Its nice that old 28 point vets can make their favorite characters, or in some cases only characters into 32 point builds. It is also nice that the truly build focused can grind out to the 36 points.

Agreed, there shouldn't be any "Zomgd, this is teh necessary for uberz" feats available, but many of these are really not going to be worth the feat slot on many builds. I like having the extra options, and can think of uses for many of these , like the ranger or sorc ones. But then you hit the paladin one, which is a fear immunity with duration of 24 + 6 per level seconds. You don't see it cast much at lower levels for a reason (although it is nice prior to mummy fights).

I'm still not sure where the line is going to be between useless, useful, and overpowered.


That only works if Super Magic Missiles don't suffer from armor check penalties.

If it follows the dragonmarked spells, it shouldn't. I believe those all cast with no ASF %.

ariel7
10-09-2009, 10:20 PM
That only works if Super Magic Missiles don't suffer from armor check penalties.

Which I suppose is only a concern if you plan on wearing armor. Considering the issues with first wizard and then sorcerer leveling in armor, I'm sure by then your dragon touched robes would be set up quite well for your reincarnated favored soul. Obviously others will make other choices, but as I was thinking about it I never even considered not using robes.

GreenGurgler
10-09-2009, 10:26 PM
no, you also get the ability to completely reroll a character and keep all items that are on it, in the bank, etc. You also get 2 additional stat points, and I believe a few bonus hitpoints too. It's not overpowering because it's not intended to be.
I think it's a neat way to go about character respec.



Why should you even get anything? It's a respec; the only way to change your class levels. It shouldn't also be a power-boost.

I get what your both saying. I guess I sounded ungrateful. Sorry for that.

But, this isn't JUST a respec. The other two let you do that more or less (depending on your definition of respec). This is a step up that many will not take except to better there character. I don't mean better as in optimal because I re-rolled it, but BETTER because of the way it is/was presented and setup (the bonus that come with it).

But if its just a respec, then why make me grind twice as much to get the xp back? Doesn't that imply a greater quantity of work for a greater payout than just a respec?

I was just surprised that's all. When I first read the TR posting, it comes across as more than just a re-roll but a step up to the next level. I may be putting to much stock into it though.

I guess if I look at it that way, its better than a kick in the pants.

MarcusCole
10-09-2009, 10:31 PM
My question is do these feats stack?
For example: if you went sorc->sorc->sorc would you be able to get 20 elemental spells and +210 sp?

pjw
10-10-2009, 07:37 AM
It's a respec; the only way to change your class levels. It shouldn't also be a power-boost.

Completely agree; where did all the power-boosting come from? This is somewhat sucky, especially if the flip-side is that I have to level my Cl16/Ftr1 to 20 before I can dump the ftr level....and ... get bigger????

People have been asking for this for some time; I'd just love to see the no-frills version that did what people were asking for and no more.

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 07:41 AM
Completely agree; where did all the power-boosting come from? This is somewhat sucky, especially if the flip-side is that I have to level my Cl16/Ftr1 to 20 before I can dump the ftr level....and ... get bigger????

People have been asking for this for some time; I'd just love to see the no-frills version that did what people were asking for and no more.

The reason they added the requirement to level 20 is to stop the game from hitting Critical Mass at Endgame. Granted, you will be playing through Endgame for a little bit in order to restart, but the Empty Harbor and Empty Endgame are now neutralized. It should be a balance. Imagine if every level 20 Reincarnated when it comes out -- level 20s wouldn't be around to PuG the new Epic Content! Imagine if you didn't have to get reset to level 1 for a Reincarnation that allowed you to fix your levels -- The Harbor Would Empty!

These are exaggerations -- you'd fine a few people on either side of the path, but overall the way the mechanic is designed is to produce an equilibrium throughout the content zones.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-10-2009, 07:49 AM
The reason they added the requirement to level 20 is to stop the game from hitting Critical Mass at Endgame. Granted, you will be playing through Endgame for a little bit in order to restart, but the Empty Harbor and Empty Endgame are now neutralized. It should be a balance. Imagine if every level 20 Reincarnated when it comes out -- level 20s wouldn't be around to PuG the new Epic Content! Imagine if you didn't have to get reset to level 1 for a Reincarnation that allowed you to fix your levels -- The Harbor Would Empty!

These are exaggerations -- you'd fine a few people on either side of the path, but overall the way the mechanic is designed is to produce an equilibrium throughout the content zones.

Your logic doesn't follow. That's why they don't allow respec of L20 directly to L20.. But the post you are quoting asked why I can't respec my L16 MC that really isn't cutting it back to L15 (to get rid of the fighter level) or even L1 under these rules. Why level a char that was fun to play to L16 but then really didn't cut it after that to L20 just to start over... Just let me start him over.

vainangel
10-10-2009, 07:52 AM
see I think these are cool. The clickies are way cool for anyone. This makes me excited for my rangers and my FvS.

Depravity
10-10-2009, 03:45 PM
Your logic doesn't follow. That's why they don't allow respec of L20 directly to L20.. But the post you are quoting asked why I can't respec my L16 MC that really isn't cutting it back to L15 (to get rid of the fighter level) or even L1 under these rules. Why level a char that was fun to play to L16 but then really didn't cut it after that to L20 just to start over... Just let me start him over.

I forget what thread it was in, but somebody pointed out the potential flaw in a system like that is not leveling the character you're going to be playing. It went something like:

1-7: play barbarian
8-16: FW sorc
16-20: whatever is easiest to level
20: respec into "final" character

That, imo, needs to be blocked. As far as I understand, no respec system in any MMO allows you to switch character class on (more or less) a whim. As well they shouldn't.

Allowing easy retaking of levels might also encourage people to all play cookie cutter "flavor of the month" builds. Whatever is hot that mod, everyone would respec into, because doing anything other than the "leet uberness" is "gimped".

I can understand the desire to "fix" a character that isn't optimal under current gameplay (I've got a few that could use it), but making it too easy (how long is that level you dropped going to take to make up?) would be counterproductive.

Best compromise I can think of is allowing X (possibly expressed as a fraction) number of levels be replaced, but whatever you took the "first time through" at any given level sticks, meaning you can't totally swap out classes at will.

Would look something like:
I have a Barbarian 14 Fighter 2, and I decide I don't want the fighter levels (say they're 1 & 2) anymore.
I'm allowed to swap out 1/4 (rounding down) of my levels.
I respec to a pure barb, but my history is set to Ftr/Ftr/14Bb
I play like that for a bit, then decide I want 4 levels of cleric for some unknown reason after hitting 17 (which means I'm at Ftr/Ftr/15Bb)
I try to do it and I cann, but I'm forced to take Cleric for the first two levels, because otherwise I don't have enough level replacements (4) to do it. So now I'm a (4Clr/13Bb, with a "permanent history" of Ftr/Ftr/15Bb)
If I wanted a fifth level of cleric, i wouldn't be allowed because it's five away from my "permanent" 2Ftr/15Bb progression (although I could at 20th).
Alternately, I could be allowed to take only 2 levels of cleric because those level changes are over the total lifespan of the character.

Either way, it's ugly and klunky. I look at it and think both "I wouldn't want to write that code" and "Given Turbine's track record, I'm not likely to trust something that complex and kludgy"

It still leaves open the case of somebody playing a mutliclass for ease of leveling, then deciding they want to just do a simple respect because the capstone is worth more to them than the MC. Or building a "mostly fighter" and MCing each mod as some new blend becomes "teh uberz".

Either way I don't think it's a style of gameplay that should be encouraged. The current beta system imposes a penalty for this that's a little harsh for a "simple fix", but I think it needs to in order to keep people from abusing the respec system.

***Edit***
Of course this occurs/is remembered seconds after hitting the submit button, spurred by the wording about "dropping to level 1" -
Possibly something between greater and true would work -
You don't have to level to 20
You receive neither build points nor past life feats
You rechoose starting stats, class, etc
You start at level 1, but with no XP penalty

In this case you must still play the character you want to reach cap all the way to cap, without being able to wake up one day and say "I think I'll be a sorc today"
Still leaves open the possibility of swapping around to "flavor of the month" builds, bu tyou'll at least have to spend a couple of days powerleveling in exchange.

Don't know if it would be a problem, but you could farm up all the lower level bound gear then respec into some sort of supertwink. Then farm favor on your newly reset quests, rinse, repeat. Favor farming is a pretty ineffeicient way to get TP, but this would reduce that some. I forget if korthos gear is exclusive, but if not I could happily farm up a half dozen or so archivist necklaces for the extra couple hundred SP.

Deriaz
10-10-2009, 04:24 PM
My question is kind of like MarcusCole's question. My main, Deriaz, is a Warforged Fighter. Both because I like the Fighter class, and because role-play-wise, he doesn't fit any other melee class. If I do Fighter 3 times in a row. . . Am I getting any additional benefit? Or would that be considered a "waste"?

I don't want to have to do something silly like Fighter -> Barbarian -> Fighter, when a Barbarian doesn't fit him at all. (Though I wouldn't ever consider doing that. If I did reincarnate, I'd just go straight Fighter again. I'm just posing an example/question.)

Monkey_Archer
10-10-2009, 04:41 PM
Well i like the list... alot of handy abilities, some more useful then others, nothing too overpowering....

exept that rogue one... +10 sneak attack damage!!!!???!! please tell me that doesnt stack with backstabbing items....:rolleyes:

i dont want to have to reroll every melee ive ever made as a rogue :(

doppleganger
10-10-2009, 06:09 PM
Well i like the list... alot of handy abilities, some more useful then others, nothing too overpowering....

exept that rogue one... +10 sneak attack damage!!!!???!! please tell me that doesnt stack with backstabbing items....:rolleyes:

i dont want to have to reroll every melee ive ever made as a rogue :(

Well, I dunno, but I think we might be reading the description the wrong way. Check a lot of the others, its under the format: x times per day, you do so and so.

Here we got: and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels..

So, are all thoses boosts part of 3 times clicky effect, or no? And how long does that last?

And we must sacrifice a feat to get those clicky effects? no thanks in the vast majority of cases.

The one notable exception is the sorc one, since it is basically a Mental Toughness feat. This could be very interesting to reroll my wizard as a sorc to get this Past Life feat, and then back to wizard again. That would mean having a wizard with 3 mental toughness feats (the 2 usual ones + the past life one), and wizards do have some leeway with their feats, contrary to sorcs.

pjw
10-10-2009, 06:47 PM
I can understand the desire to "fix" a character that isn't optimal under current gameplay

Simplest solution is to allow me to drop a level completely; take my Clr16/Ftr1 and turn him into a Clr16. The avoids the Brb7->Src8 problem.

Also, if you want to be paranoid, only allow this once per month.

Basically, I'd like to see Greater Reincarnation with the ability to just 'forget' 1 or two levels.

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 07:34 PM
Your logic doesn't follow. That's why they don't allow respec of L20 directly to L20.. But the post you are quoting asked why I can't respec my L16 MC that really isn't cutting it back to L15 (to get rid of the fighter level) or even L1 under these rules. Why level a char that was fun to play to L16 but then really didn't cut it after that to L20 just to start over... Just let me start him over.

I purposefully only revealed half of my worries -- The Empty Harbor.

If you had an Empty Harbor, you'd have a FULL Endgame at Critical Mass.

However, I had a concern I never revealed -- Continuous Recycle and minimal players existing at Endgame (ie Raiding, High-End Quests, etc). It would have been a perpetual slope upwards.

Imagine if every semi-capped player decided to Reincarnate the day it comes out (or even week). There would be very very few players at levels 15-20 to run End Game Content -- including the new Epic Content. Now you have the reverse -- Full Harbor, Empty Endgame (and I do mean the final frontier Endgame).

Now however, you must go all the way to 20. That means there will be level 16-19s assured. Epic Content aside, everything else is pretty much guaranteed to have a percentage of the player population and not be drastically unbalanced. Equilibrium was achieved through the equation Turbine has produced.

I'm very confident it was smart.

pjw
10-10-2009, 07:54 PM
Now however, you must go all the way to 20. That means there will be level 16-19s assured. Epic Content aside, everything else is pretty much guaranteed to have a percentage of the player population and not be drastically unbalanced. Equilibrium was achieved through the equation Turbine has produced.

I'm very confident it was smart.

Sadly, I am very confident you are wrong.

I don't play my Clr16/Ftr1 because I hate the Ftr1. I will not bring him, limping, up to L20 just to redo it. The alternative for other players who reach, say, L12-L16 and realize they made a mistake is to roll a new char...which they will likely do instead of going all the way to 20 because (a) it's sooo much easier and (b) the probably have very little raid loot. Older L16+ chars have a more difficult problem because they have a lot of raid loot. In a way, the system just discriminates against people with older chars.

Most people are not going to reroll from 1. I'd guess, perhaps, 10-20% of the entire character (not player) population. I only want to do a level respec on 1, maybe 2, of my 13 characters. The rest will be Greater Reincarnation (or nothing at all).

To address your points in order:

- there will always be L16-20 available because noone will be silly enough to respec all their L20s to 1 at the same time. I expect they will do 1 at a time.

- There is no guarantee whatsoever under any of the systems (including current live servers) that level ranges will have players available. All one can say is that allowing True Reincarnation below level 20 will shift a small proportion of badly made (and probably un-played) higher level characters to lower levels.

- there is no equilibrium, merely a small period of dis-equilibrium as a small number of characters (briefly) level from 1 to 20 again. There will continue to be an even smaller number of characters doing this over time.

The only problem with allowing True Reincarnation at less thet L20 is all the other un-asked-for features that have been added to it. At this stage, I'd be happy with:

- Greater Reinc: allow you to forget as many levels as you like (so I can drop Ftr1). Keep all favour.
- True Reinc: forget all levels and get the bonuses (+2 pts, new feat).

That said, it remains seriously unclear from a suspension-of-disbelief point of view as to exactly why re-levelling a character in mostly the same class from 1-20 should incur and XP penalty. If anything it should be easier. Obviously, going Clr20->Src20 SHOULD involve a steeper learning curve.

Depravity
10-10-2009, 09:15 PM
Simplest solution is to allow me to drop a level completely; take my Clr16/Ftr1 and turn him into a Clr16. The avoids the Brb7->Src8 problem.

Also, if you want to be paranoid, only allow this once per month.

Basically, I'd like to see Greater Reincarnation with the ability to just 'forget' 1 or two levels.

If the fighter was the last level you took, maybe. If you can replace any level, you're back to letting people MC to 20 and then rerun levels 19-20 or so to go back to a "pure" build. Just need to reincarnate X number of times. Then change it again when a new MC that looks better show up. Even if you peel off the top you can pure class to 20 and then splash as various things become better or worse. Even at only once a month, some (mildly crazy) people would still exploit it (especially if we're 4-6 months between major changes). Having to deal with a single "off" level for a month between changing 2 splash/pure won't be that hard, especially people who do it with guild consent and backing.

I speak from experience - in PnP, the 3.5 psionics introduced a power whereby you could pay 500 xp a level and go back that many levels to remake your choices. I used it on my psionicists a couple of times before deciding it was just too broken for further use (although watching the DM foam at the mouth was worth it the first couple of times). Removing DM discretion by putting it onto an automated system won't make it any less so.

pjw
10-10-2009, 10:05 PM
Just need to reincarnate X number of times. Then change it again when a new MC that looks better show up.

OK, some people would do this. Would it break the game, though? I seriously doubt it. Would it make a 'stale' character more fun (and encourage me to play longer), yes.


Having to deal with a single "off" level for a month between changing 2 splash/pure won't be that hard, especially people who do it with guild consent and backing.

Well, they're probably mildly crazy as you suggest, or, more likely, a recent change broke their build (or made another too powerful) and they *should* be allowed a respec.


I speak from experience - in PnP...


Quoting PnP is mostly pointless; this game is so far from PnP that it is almost always irrelevant or has other non-PnP features that make the argument much less than clear.


... could pay 500 xp a level and go back that many levels to remake your choices....it was just too broken for further use...watching the DM foam at the mouth...Removing DM discretion...won't make it any less so.

Well, firstly the DM won't be foaming at the mouth any more. Secondly, were the players foaming at the mouth? If so, why? If it unbalanced your character, then doing it 2 or 3 time should have been harder.

OK, I can go with once per quarter/6 months/year. I want if for one character, once, in reality. There would be others if I played meles with all the build-breaking changes that have occurred over the years.

Nothing I am suggesting should really in any way unbalance the game. It just means I play my cleric more often. And maybe dust off an old melee.

tihocan
10-10-2009, 10:06 PM
My question is do these feats stack?
For example: if you went sorc->sorc->sorc would you be able to get 20 elemental spells and +210 sp?
Most likely you can take a feat only once.

smithers
10-11-2009, 06:29 AM
Most likely you can take a feat only once.

No statement on this yet, but I would argue it should be allowed/rewarded.

We still haven't seen the tie-in feats (the ones that you must spend a feat to get once you have the lil free one) which would tend to favor spreading across 2 classes.

Since the freebies are (thankfully) not overpowered, I see no reason why you couldn't benefit twice from the same class.

The clicky effects would not stack of course but you'd get 2X per rest the normal amount.

In terms of Fluff this works nicely and a triple-capped sorc for example might even get a small bonus for being the very paragon of sorc power. This wouldn't be unbalancing for the reason above (you've forgone the benefit of opening additinal feats)

Anyways, it's clear that however this is finally implemented it greatly increases the variety of builds out there and that is a very very good thing IMO.

Mhykke
10-11-2009, 06:45 AM
I think what everyone is forgetting when trying to calculate all these different class reincarnations to gain past life feats for your final class is the fact that you have to actually spend a feat to get a past life ability.

Judging from these abilities, I don't think many have the free feats available to take one of these abilities, b/c most are just not that good. For example, I wanted to test the ranger ram's might ability...Went to the preview server and it turns out it's a 3 minute clicky of ram's might. Meh. Not worth the feat. If it turns out that everything is like that, for example, if the rogue backstab is only a 3 minute clicky, I'm not even going to bother.

Only characters that have the luxury of plenty of feats, or characters where a past life feat mimic's a current feat (such as a sorc past life replacing a mental toughness) will probably take advantage of this system.

Mhykke
10-11-2009, 06:49 AM
I purposefully only revealed half of my worries -- The Empty Harbor.

If you had an Empty Harbor, you'd have a FULL Endgame at Critical Mass.

However, I had a concern I never revealed -- Continuous Recycle and minimal players existing at Endgame (ie Raiding, High-End Quests, etc). It would have been a perpetual slope upwards.

Imagine if every semi-capped player decided to Reincarnate the day it comes out (or even week). There would be very very few players at levels 15-20 to run End Game Content -- including the new Epic Content. Now you have the reverse -- Full Harbor, Empty Endgame (and I do mean the final frontier Endgame).

Now however, you must go all the way to 20. That means there will be level 16-19s assured. Epic Content aside, everything else is pretty much guaranteed to have a percentage of the player population and not be drastically unbalanced. Equilibrium was achieved through the equation Turbine has produced.

I'm very confident it was smart.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii143/mykeuva/facepalm.jpg

KaKa
10-11-2009, 09:08 AM
I think what everyone is forgetting when trying to calculate all these different class reincarnations to gain past life feats for your final class is the fact that you have to actually spend a feat to get a past life ability.

Judging from these abilities, I don't think many have the free feats available to take one of these abilities, b/c most are just not that good. For example, I wanted to test the ranger ram's might ability...Went to the preview server and it turns out it's a 3 minute clicky of ram's might. Meh. Not worth the feat. If it turns out that everything is like that, for example, if the rogue backstab is only a 3 minute clicky, I'm not even going to bother.

Only characters that have the luxury of plenty of feats, or characters where a past life feat mimic's a current feat (such as a sorc past life replacing a mental toughness) will probably take advantage of this system.

You weren't by chance lvl 3 when you used the rams might were you?

Monkey_Archer
10-11-2009, 09:47 AM
Well, I dunno, but I think we might be reading the description the wrong way. Check a lot of the others, its under the format: x times per day, you do so and so.

Here we got: and three times per rest you can skulk with the skill of your past life, gaining bonuses equal to your level to your hide and move silently skills, a +1 bonus to sneak attack damage for every two character levels, and a +1 bonus to hit with sneak attacks for every four levels..

So, are all thoses boosts part of 3 times clicky effect, or no? And how long does that last?

And we must sacrifice a feat to get those clicky effects? no thanks in the vast majority of cases.

The one notable exception is the sorc one, since it is basically a Mental Toughness feat. This could be very interesting to reroll my wizard as a sorc to get this Past Life feat, and then back to wizard again. That would mean having a wizard with 3 mental toughness feats (the 2 usual ones + the past life one), and wizards do have some leeway with their feats, contrary to sorcs.

Even a 20 second boost would be huge... thats still twice what a damage boost does and likely wont be on the same timer...

ariel7
10-14-2009, 01:11 AM
Most likely you can take a feat only once.

You are correct, Tihocan. Eladrin answered it once forever ago, and a few people asking that question have quoted his answer prior to asking hehe