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Froglodyte
10-08-2009, 09:01 PM
UNLESS YOU KNOW EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE ITEM YOU ARE PURCHASING.

Bit of history. I screwed up the other day--I accidentally deleted a toon that had a store-bought item (huge collectibles bag) on it because my client had crashed while I was on the way to the bank to put the item back in my account bank.

I reported and was told that toons cannot be recovered and items from deleted toons cannot be recovered. Although this is *not* true, it's obvious that Turbine has a "no replacement" policy. So fine, I can tolerate the company lying to me in order to provide cover for their policy.

This bag, which I bought just a few weeks ago from the store, was a "bound to account" item. Today, after seriously considering whether I wanted to waste points on something that the company provided no warranty for, I took the plunge and bought another "huge collectibles bag." Things have changed, however--this "new" bag was not bound to account, but bound to CHARACTER.

Which makes it worthless for my purposes, which was simply to store items from several of my toons.

After discovering the change to the bag, I requested a refund as it CERTAINLY was not something I would have purchased.

Again, I was told that Turbine provides no refunds or returns from store items.

Be VERY CAREFUL when dealing with "real money" transactions w/Turbine. They are clearly willing to take advantage of the lack of clear legislation in the "online gaming" industry.

This company would PREFER to anger a customer who has given them a year's worth of subscription fees as well as some money to buy "turbine points" than to simply replace an item that they KNOW I had purchased legitimately.

After this experience, I believe it would be foolish and potentially buy anything from the store except character slots. If anyone else has similar experiences, feel free to append them. Let's fill others in BEFORE THEY GET BURNED.

Gorby
10-08-2009, 09:12 PM
Sorry to hear your trouble with the store. It's unfortunate that the first bag got deleted as they are now unacquirable. Turbine announced they had intended the bags to be bound to character, but bags purchased previous to patch 1 were bound to account. Previous to patch 1, the description in the store did say they were bound to character as intended as they still do.

As far as recovering items from deleted characters, I've heard in the past that they were not able to do that even when it didn't involve RL $ so this is not a new scam policy. It's likely a technical limitation.

Again, sorry to hear this but the bag is still useful as it is and you can buy medium bags real easily in game to mail collectibles around.

Best of luck

Froglodyte
10-08-2009, 09:34 PM
Gorby--there's no way to know the characteristics of the items from the store.

It is ILLEGAL for a "real" store not to accept returns, yet that it what Turbine has chosen to do with the "points store."

This is for the benefit of anyone else (who doesn't spend much time here on the boards and know all about whatever policy they're changing) BEFORE THEY GET SCREWED.

And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that this was a "scam" in any sense other than that selling products which don't exist is an activity that begs for appropriate consumer protections. They can do WHATEVER THEY WANT--it's part of the TOS.

Hopefully someone who sees my warning will be able to avoid the kind of treatment I received.

Lithic
10-08-2009, 10:06 PM
The bag description clearly says it binds to character. It has been like that since the store began. For the first week or so however, the bags were bugged and only bound to account. During the sale on bags, such bind to account bags had their price raised to about 695pts (from 595) to compensate for their increased usefullness. Soon after, they were fixed to be bind to character as their description says.

Falco_Easts
10-08-2009, 10:37 PM
There is no legal obligation to provide a refund unless the item is broken.
Item is working as described - no refund required.

Just so I can clarify something, your server crashed while on way to bank. When it came back up you didn't bother checking the character you were about to delete?

How is the new bag worthless? You can still mail the collectibles to the character with the bag.

Froglodyte
10-09-2009, 12:33 AM
Hey, I know I screwed up.

And I know that because of the nature of this business, they can do anything. It's the nature of the beast. The only thing we get for our dollar is access to the game, bugs or not, etc etc. It's software.

I just found the situation to be frustrating and unsatisfactory, and I say this as someone who had no gripe with Turbine for 11 months. The company is charging money for the store items, and they could do something pretty simple to make for more options for players who are dissatisfied (as I am) or made mistakes (as I did), or they can continue to tell folks they're out of luck.

From a customer service perspective, one approach might be better.

Interestingly--selling in-game items for money is something that Turbine doesn't want anyone else doing, but given the size of the market, they had to get into it. And based on my experience so far, they don't even do as good a job as the plat-farmers!

Uska
10-09-2009, 12:41 AM
Gorby--there's no way to know the characteristics of the items from the store.

It is ILLEGAL for a "real" store not to accept returns, yet that it what Turbine has chosen to do with the "points store."

This is for the benefit of anyone else (who doesn't spend much time here on the boards and know all about whatever policy they're changing) BEFORE THEY GET SCREWED.

And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that this was a "scam" in any sense other than that selling products which don't exist is an activity that begs for appropriate consumer protections. They can do WHATEVER THEY WANT--it's part of the TOS.

Hopefully someone who sees my warning will be able to avoid the kind of treatment I received.



Umm having worked in retail I can tell you that you are wrong if you have a no returns and all sales are final policy posted its legal at least in every state I have lived in.

Hokiewa
10-09-2009, 01:00 AM
Hey, I know I screwed up.

And I know that because of the nature of this business, they can do anything. It's the nature of the beast. The only thing we get for our dollar is access to the game, bugs or not, etc etc. It's software.

I just found the situation to be frustrating and unsatisfactory, and I say this as someone who had no gripe with Turbine for 11 months. The company is charging money for the store items, and they could do something pretty simple to make for more options for players who are dissatisfied (as I am) or made mistakes (as I did), or they can continue to tell folks they're out of luck.

From a customer service perspective, one approach might be better.

Interestingly--selling in-game items for money is something that Turbine doesn't want anyone else doing, but given the size of the market, they had to get into it. And based on my experience so far, they don't even do as good a job as the plat-farmers!

No. You knew the toon had a "huge bag bound to account". Client crashes. K, so what? You still deleted the toon. You typed the name in the delete box. I'm sorry you feel so unsatisfied. Many, if not all, long time players have accidentally deleted toons that had great stuff on them. Long time players and new players make permanent mistakes all the time.

I'm not sure why it's so interesting that Turbine wants to corner the market on ITs intellectual property. I mean really, you don't get that? You don't get that a business would want to earn a profit, and eliminate those that sell in game items for REAL money with no investment? No development? Ridiculous


Why would you delete a toon that had the bag? The crash is a ridiculous excuse, you know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. Just own it. There are plenty of things to chastise Turbine for, player error is not one of them. So really, just get over it.

Does it suck? Sure, you'll never be able to get that bag again, in its previous account bound form. It's certainly not the company's fault though.

Froglodyte
10-09-2009, 01:16 AM
Wow. Folks really would argue with anything here.

Look, everyone: this is a question of policy. I'm not satisfied with their policy, and I'm complaining about it.

If ANYONE ELSE is unhappy with this policy, perhaps they too will complain and someone at Turbine will think about changing it. There are so many options...

1) Offer a toon restoral service. Charge a fee, since the customer screwed up. (It's not a technical limitation--these are computers, folks.)

2) Offer some kind of item linking or registration for items which customers are sooooo attached to that they'd like some kind of assurance that it won't be poofed by whatever vagary of idiocy or technical issue may occur.

3) Offer any kind of warranty or return policy for items purchased in the in-game store.

I contacted Turbine about this issue and received the exact same reply each time: We can't do it, we don't do it, we won't do it.

That is a policy decision. It will apply to anyone in any situation, whether similar to mine or different. It will apply to you if you are unhappy with something you buy at the store, it will apply to your friend who deleted the wrong toon, etc etc.

It is not something that can't be changed, and it's not something that everyone will prefer. If it's what you prefer, good for you.

Personally, I'm now apprehensive about buying items from the store. I don't think I'll do it again, and that's not really a problem for me.

Froglodyte
10-09-2009, 01:20 AM
Holy cow! Good to see you, man!

Hokiewa
10-09-2009, 01:37 AM
Wow. Folks really would argue with anything here.

Look, everyone: this is a question of policy. I'm not satisfied with their policy, and I'm complaining about it.

If ANYONE ELSE is unhappy with this policy, perhaps they too will complain and someone at Turbine will think about changing it. There are so many options...

1) Offer a toon restoral service. Charge a fee, since the customer screwed up. (It's not a technical limitation--these are computers, folks.)

2) Offer some kind of item linking or registration for items which customers are sooooo attached to that they'd like some kind of assurance that it won't be poofed by whatever vagary of idiocy or technical issue may occur.

3) Offer any kind of warranty or return policy for items purchased in the in-game store.

I contacted Turbine about this issue and received the exact same reply each time: We can't do it, we don't do it, we won't do it.

That is a policy decision. It will apply to anyone in any situation, whether similar to mine or different. It will apply to you if you are unhappy with something you buy at the store, it will apply to your friend who deleted the wrong toon, etc etc.

It is not something that can't be changed, and it's not something that everyone will prefer. If it's what you prefer, good for you.

Personally, I'm now apprehensive about buying items from the store. I don't think I'll do it again, and that's not really a problem for me.

Nope. Take responsibilty for what you did. You are just making excuses now. The bag issue was WELL known in game and on the forums. There were a dozen threads about. Regardless, you deleted the toon with the irreplaceable bag. You bought a new bag, which is clearly tagged Bound to Character.

You've made terrible analogies, misrepresented individual state law, and clearly don't understand why the "policy" is simply........the policy. It won't change. Nor should it.

Rhun_of_Rhenged
10-09-2009, 02:07 AM
It's not an advantage to keep customers ignorant. Thank you for the heads up on this specific issue.

I really have no idea, yet, what you mean by it...newb...but let me grapple with my own learning curve for the moment. I have finally found an e-mail address for their customer service.

Yeah...

...oops, I mean Yay!!!!

Hmph, I get exasperated too, however, if you read these electronic end user agreements carefully, it's usually WYIWYG. So yea, you are right in a certain sense. I do agree, it would help Turbine develop and thus improve quality, especially when reasonable customers like yourself, calmly suggest solutions, to what may seem like maddening problems to them. But you're SOL in the end. Suck it up, or call the credit card company.

I don't work retail, nor answer phones for a living. Never been much of a people person, unless say...I take a job that was something similar to that character Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons. (Funny how I look him in real life.)

In this day and age, when all I hear most days are news stories about loss of identity, it should be understood from the perspective of the retailer, there really ARE legal rights for us customers, yes?

So is this Uska impressionable with calls from my lawyer, to describe my state's applicable laws? Probably. Let's hope so, because I'm not a lawyer either.

That's why I have the Yellow pages. Sometimes real live businesses don't get listed in those either. I shudder at the thought, Turbine rep-lying to this e-mail/board message sent to me. Catch my meaning public domain? I'm daft. I just needed to scroll down and take the time to read. (It's not like it was buried seven links away in fine HTML print or anything.)

Anyway I have no reason to do the job of any lawyer, nor iron out the IT difficulties your data loss could cause their code, Froglodyte.

I'm not a Dilbert either. I probably look more like Dogbert (w/o glasses), in any case, who ironically...may be more inclined to read the end user agreement twice for exploitable loopholes. (That's probably closer to my anal-retentive personality anyway.)

Uh, ok. I need to dungeon crawl now...

Cheers!

Froglodyte
10-09-2009, 11:26 AM
They could make it a bit more obvious that the store sales are final, irrevocable, whatever. Going through the purchase process certainly doesn't tell the ignorant customer what the policy is--you have to read the TOS, which is a few thousand words of lawyer's boilerplate.

Suggestion to players: be careful.

Suggestions to Turbine: see above.

Hokiewa--you sure are some kind of sourpuss. Personal issues, I think--you tell me to "take responsibility" for some reason, but it's not as if I haven't done so. I screwed up and lost an irreplaceable and very valuable item. Does that make you happy somehow? It's informative to learn that my error and loss pleases you so.

State law here is that stores have to accept returns/exchanges, whether for refund or replacement, unless, as Uska mentioned, there's a clearly posted "all sales final" policy. That's really not the case with the store, and again this would be easy enough to fix by adding some simple warnings, given all the ad real-estate they're currently using to try to sell you +1 chain shirts. :)

Froglodyte
10-09-2009, 11:30 AM
I don't think I'd bother with emailing customer service again. I did, and received no reply. To submit a ticket IN GAME (which got me a response, although it was "too bad for you"), use the "help" menu and look around.

Apparently the in-game tickets are more diligently monitored than the support e-mailboxes.

Neofolis
10-10-2009, 08:14 PM
I kind of have an issue too. I bought the Drow class, because I wanted a 32 point build and saw lots of forum posts about how a Drow is just as good or better because, although they only get 28 points, they only use 1 point for stat increases as 15-16 and two points for 17-18. Anyway, I got my Drow and was disappointed to see CON - 6, but thought it should still work out OK with the lower cost high level stats. Now I have a Drow I realise that this only effects the DEX, INT and CHA that start at 10, which is great for me wanting to build a Fighter, Cleric. Whilst I appreciate that I could have investigated further and found this information, it should be available in the store. I shouldn't have to look elsewhere to find out what I am buying. When I looked at the stats tab in store it just said STR - 0, DEX - 0, etc., really helpful.

My contention now, never using anything other than dumb, bashing classes and healers is that I have an item that I will never use. It may well be my fault, even though with sufficient product information in store I wouldn't have bought it, but why won't Turbine refund the points, it's not like I want my money back. Surely players are going to be less likely to spend money on points in future, if they think that Turbine won't help out when they have got an item they don't want.

On a similar topic, at the same time I bought a Tome, which is bound to account, but I don't see any way to transfer it to the server I want it on.

cardmj1
10-10-2009, 08:39 PM
On a similar topic, at the same time I bought a Tome, which is bound to account, but I don't see any way to transfer it to the server I want it on.

Let me answer this one for you. Bound to account means that you can transfer items to any same server characters on a single account. As a work around, in order to transfer said tome to another server character, you would have to transfer the character with the tome in their inventory to the other server for the cost of a fee.

Remember, Turbine is doing it's best to learn the knowledge base of all the new customers coming in with the F2P model. There was alot they did not have to explain before F2P, because the average DDO player already had existing knowledge of Dungeons & Dragons pen and paper games. Therefore, there was alot of information that Turbine assumed (rightfully so) their playerbase would know from that previous knowledge. This is, of course, no longer the case. Please give them time and feedback on things you are unsure about or ask the veteran players.

Visty
10-10-2009, 08:42 PM
On a similar topic, at the same time I bought a Tome, which is bound to account, but I don't see any way to transfer it to the server I want it on.

you cant transfer items from server to server, whats on a server stays there

bound to account just means you can mail it around your chars with the shared bank

for the first point: you bought drow and arent satisfied with it and now you want the points back? thats what i read there, is that true?

cardmj1
10-10-2009, 08:52 PM
for the first point: you bought drow and arent satisfied with it and now you want the points back? thats what i read there, is that true?

Visty,

I don't think the player has ever played drow in game or in pnp. He probably did not know there were "natural" abilities unique to the drow race nor "natural" drawbacks (ie con stats). I also believe the player did not research the race on the compendium, wiki, or ask on the forums before purchase. Many F2P persons do not research before purchasing. It's not a bad thing, just unwise.

Froglodyte
10-10-2009, 11:32 PM
"It may well be my fault, even though with sufficient product information in store I wouldn't have bought it, but why won't Turbine refund the points, it's not like I want my money back. Surely players are going to be less likely to spend money on points in future, if they think that Turbine won't help out when they have got an item they don't want."

This is about my take on it, too. And I think the legal claim that points have no value and thus will never be refunded is weakened a bit by the fact that the company sells 'em for cash.

Another thought that occurred to me on the "no toon restoral" policy: Something another poster mentioned was that virtually every veteran player has irrevocably lost stuff because of an accidentally deleted toon.

If that's at all accurate, personally, I'd say that's a strong reason to consider providing restoral services. It would please some players, could provide some revenue to pay for the administration of the service, and could save a lot of people the grief from the potential unrecoverable loss in the future.

THAC0
10-10-2009, 11:50 PM
..... at the risk of being blasted by either side... :) I have a question. I totally missed the 'bag fix' threads or 'bag bug' threads... I scan new posts for specific topics and read. Anyhow, my question to the group here is, I did purchase those Big bags from the DDO Store the day it opened. Likely shortly after the server was up... so are the bags I bought for my 1 character (that I am using)... bound to the account, or bond to that specific character. Specifically, from what I gather is possible here, am I able to put those bags in my shared bank box and move them to my other characters?

Sorry for the question.. but now I'm curious.

Also, sorry to hear you deleted a character only to find out what you thought wasn't at all.

:cool:

Orratti
10-11-2009, 02:41 AM
I once deleted a character with 700k plat on it, was ****ed but didn't even think of making a ticket or any complaint in order to recover it because I already knew it wouldn't do any good. I'm sorry you lost your RL money and who knows you might get a refund from writing this thread. I guess my avoiding the ddo store entirely along with plat farmers has been a worthwhile investment for me. I never understood the urge to buy plat with RL money, ok maybe I understood a little but really money actually has value and plat can be played for and if you pull a good enough item like I did you can sell it for fake money that someone else payed real money for and even if you delete your character and the money all you have really done is remove plat from the general population. Hmm maybe if I keep pulling awesome loot and selling it on the ah for plat that I drop onto a character I continuosly reroll just to delete with loads of plat I could not only break all the plat sellers but possibly bankrupt the entire server eventually leading to a deflation of ah prices. Hmmm.

Froglodyte
10-11-2009, 02:57 PM
So if you're lucky, the bag is "bound to account." I guess the only way to know for certain is to go grab it and look at it. It should say "bound to account" if it is, which would mean you CAN put it in your "shared account locker."

KaKa
10-11-2009, 03:06 PM
The policy is a good one. Once a character is deleted the info is gone. Everything you said could in fact be a lie and an attempt to get something free. With no way to verify your claim how can you expect them to just hand you another bag? I know you are telling the truth, but the rules cannot be changed just because you may be honest.

Froglodyte
10-11-2009, 05:16 PM
"The policy is a good one. Once a character is deleted the info is gone. Everything you said could in fact be a lie and an attempt to get something free. With no way to verify your claim how can you expect them to just hand you another bag? I know you are telling the truth, but the rules cannot be changed just because you may be honest."

Well, it happens that my career is in IT, and this is so unlikely to be correct I ought to respond.

MMOs are first and foremost databases. *Everything* that happens in the game is logged, tracked, noted, updated, etc etc etc.

What you asserted above is virtually *never* done with databases. If you have an "external user" accessing the database, in this case a player, you don't PERMIT them to delete records directly from the database in real-time. It's too risky to leave that kind of power open directly to everyone who connects to the server. For the most part, even if an administrator performs a record deletion or update, it is reversible until some purge period has elapsed.

Is it not 100% impossible that Turbine does in fact grant player-accounts an "irreversible and instant" deletion of data from their game, but if they do employ such lax security on the game DB, they're incompetent. And that's not any kind of exaggeration.

Sure, it's easy to assume that there's a technical limitation based on the Turbine response, "We can't restore toons," and in fact they may want you make that assumption, but the chances that it's true are vanishingly small.

Letrii
10-12-2009, 12:33 PM
"The policy is a good one. Once a character is deleted the info is gone. Everything you said could in fact be a lie and an attempt to get something free. With no way to verify your claim how can you expect them to just hand you another bag? I know you are telling the truth, but the rules cannot be changed just because you may be honest."

Well, it happens that my career is in IT, and this is so unlikely to be correct I ought to respond.

MMOs are first and foremost databases. *Everything* that happens in the game is logged, tracked, noted, updated, etc etc etc.

What you asserted above is virtually *never* done with databases. If you have an "external user" accessing the database, in this case a player, you don't PERMIT them to delete records directly from the database in real-time. It's too risky to leave that kind of power open directly to everyone who connects to the server. For the most part, even if an administrator performs a record deletion or update, it is reversible until some purge period has elapsed.

Is it not 100% impossible that Turbine does in fact grant player-accounts an "irreversible and instant" deletion of data from their game, but if they do employ such lax security on the game DB, they're incompetent. And that's not any kind of exaggeration.

Sure, it's easy to assume that there's a technical limitation based on the Turbine response, "We can't restore toons," and in fact they may want you make that assumption, but the chances that it's true are vanishingly small.

Do you work for Turbine? Do you know they don't have program coded to delete character data when you delete a toon?

Froglodyte
10-12-2009, 01:48 PM
As I said, if the user is deleting stuff directly without any data protection, they're incompetent. I don't believe they're incompetent.

As analogy, I'd also say that a bank was incompetent if they didn't lock safe-deposit boxes so that anyone who was looking in their own box could just go open and poke around in someone else's.

I think if you read the post again that you replied to, you'll see that I acknowledged that it's not 100% IMPOSSIBLE that customers can do it. Just incredibly unlikely.

Osco
10-12-2009, 03:02 PM
You confuse "external user access" to a particular record subset to access to the entire database. You don't know nearly as much as you think you do, on several subjects, as your posts in this thread attest.

Froglodyte
10-12-2009, 03:11 PM
Cool.

Tell me, do you think that the user's deletion of a character is instant and irrevocable?

Just asking for your speculation there.

Impaqt
10-12-2009, 03:26 PM
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3453/bagq.jpg

Seems pretty clear tome that itis Bound to Character now.

Froglodyte
10-12-2009, 05:15 PM
Yeah, I think it said the same thing when I bought the first bag, too, but you are right to point out that the description is currently correct.

I made a mistake to buy it, and now I'm out the points and have a bound item that I don't really care for and can't sell or recover any of my investment on.

Good point to raise. I made a mistake. Oops.

Kistilan
10-14-2009, 12:07 AM
The bag description clearly says it binds to character. It has been like that since the store began. For the first week or so however, the bags were bugged and only bound to account. During the sale on bags, such bind to account bags had their price raised to about 695pts (from 595) to compensate for their increased usefullness. Soon after, they were fixed to be bind to character as their description says.

At least that's what their "cover-up" story was. Most agree they should have removed the bags & refunded instead of raising the price w/out telling the population. Furthermore, removing the bag's bind to account code and uncerimoniously announcing it later (along with a reduced price), was rather deceptive.

I hope that Turbine learns their lesson on that one.

I also hope they realize that selling bound to character bags and quivers is much less desired by the populace.

Instead of buying 1 BtA bag prior to change and stopping there, I'd likely buy 6 more Huge bags across 3 Servers and at least 10 of their quivers. As they're bound to character, I'm not buying any -- Deneith quivers and in-game bags are better.

Kylani
10-15-2009, 07:17 AM
At least that's what their "cover-up" story was. Most agree they should have removed the bags & refunded instead of raising the price w/out telling the population. Furthermore, removing the bag's bind to account code and uncerimoniously announcing it later (along with a reduced price), was rather deceptive.

I hope that Turbine learns their lesson on that one.

I also hope they realize that selling bound to character bags and quivers is much less desired by the populace.

Instead of buying 1 BtA bag prior to change and stopping there, I'd likely buy 6 more Huge bags across 3 Servers and at least 10 of their quivers. As they're bound to character, I'm not buying any -- Deneith quivers and in-game bags are better.

I thought someone from Turbine once stated that all store items would be bind to account? This game is so geared to making you reroll, at least early on, I have a problem with bind to character items sold in the store.

I know they're adding items to allow you to reroll, but they cost money. So if you decide to delete your character to reroll because you'd like to try a different race, you're stuck losing an item you paid money for. Or you can keep what you paid for IF you buy a reroll item.

I understand they can do what they like and people shouldn't buy bound to character stuff unless they think they'll keep the character, but this just seems wrong to me. I'm willing to pay money for bound to account items, but not bound to character. Having bound to character items like this leaves a bad taste in my mouth over the store. I'd like the bags and quivers, but they scream rip-off.

As far as deleting a character with items you've paid for, I do think it's pretty much your own fault. You should be careful before you delete. I don't think it's the game makers responsibility. They give you a prompt asking you are you sure. You need to be sure.

Hafeal
10-15-2009, 07:58 AM
I feel for you OP, I triple check the inventory of every character, including the bank before I delete. Dead is Dead as they say.

Although Turbine came out with a plausible explanation regarding the bags, it came out about a week after it was first noticed and complained about because they had not announced either the price change nor the feature change (account --> character). [Kist beat me to the punch!]

I believe Huge bags, especially at their price point, should be bound to account as that is what made them useful. You only really need a large for a character otherwise. I am willing to bet they will change it again at some point when they need to boost some revenue - we know, after all, that they can do it now.

Cedwin
10-15-2009, 08:08 AM
Bit of history. I screwed up the other day--I accidentally deleted a toon that had a store-bought item (huge collectibles bag) on it because my client had crashed while I was on the way to the bank to put the item back in my account bank.


How do you accidentally delete a toon? Or did you mean that you just forgot that the bag was still on him after you deleted him? Either way it was your fault. Now you're mad because they won't recover your character, and won't give you a refund, so you're basically trying to start a boycott against the DDO Store... I'd watch out man, that is probably grounds enough to ban your account.

Cedwin
10-15-2009, 08:14 AM
Cool.

Tell me, do you think that the user's deletion of a character is instant and irrevocable?

Just asking for your speculation there.

If each user has an individual row in a "users" table, with multiple tables storing various other info about the user, once the user is removed from the users table it would delete all associations between it and other tables (which are probably cleaned up during deletion anyways). The only way to restore a "single" row in a table would be to restore the database to a previous point, which is a "roll-back", so recovering your character would also roll everyone else (on your server) back to just before you did.

Froglodyte
10-15-2009, 03:01 PM
@ cedrin

It's MY fault. And while I was exasperated and emotional in those first posts, I stand by the initial warning, which is that you should be VERY CAREFUL buying stuff there, because it's all caveat emptor.

I'm not trying to "organize a boycott." I'm complaining about the various policies that got me here.

I'd be surprised if they wanted to ban my account for that. I AM paying them, after all.

(RE: database stuff--there are many theoretical ways in which the game could be set up that would permit a user/customer to delete stuff right from the database. I don't think the game is set up that up that way. I doubt Turbine will tell us, but it would very poor data security indeed if the lowest-privileged users, players, could directly delete their characters. No joke.)

arminius
10-15-2009, 03:20 PM
You should have been here before all the vendor and broker changes, with the added abilities to lock items, to buyback from vendors, and the vastly different behavior of the sell and repair actions.

Everyone who back in the olden days unrecoverably sold a 3d of their inventory thinking they were repairing it raise their hands. <Raises Hand.> I sold Retribution and the Giant Stalker Knife that way back when they were among the most desirable items in the game. There was some anger involved.

_

Anhunedd
10-16-2009, 07:20 AM
Seems to me there's room for two revenue streams - sell BOTH bound to character and bound to account bags + quivers.

Drop the current price a bit for the current, character bound items and create a new price point a bit higher for account bound items.

What's a huge collectable bag at the moment? 595? So make the character bound one 395 and the account bound one 795. And then a large bag, bound to character might only be 195. So you see what might happen? One huge bound to account bag for the shared bank slot, or to pass around your current "favourite", and then large bags bound to each character for current use. Net result? More points spent, more money earnt.

I got lucky. I got a large bag before the change. There's no way I'll ever upgrade that to a Huge now, and even looking at the comparatively cheap quivers, I find myself thinking "yeah, but if I ever re-roll...", and so I don't spend.

Another thought - only allow bound to account items to be bought by Premium or higher members. Another way to ensure the points being spent are from real cash.

Ahhzz
10-16-2009, 08:47 AM
If each user has an individual row in a "users" table, with multiple tables storing various other info about the user, once the user is removed from the users table it would delete all associations between it and other tables (which are probably cleaned up during deletion anyways). The only way to restore a "single" row in a table would be to restore the database to a previous point, which is a "roll-back", so recovering your character would also roll everyone else (on your server) back to just before you did.

Is it just me? That didn't answer the question.... "Do you personally think...?" Looks to me like he just wants to argue and have someone say "Yes, you're right."



The whole point here seems to be a policy issue, and a lack of clarity. Are they capable of setting the system up so they could restore items, or even characters? Absolutely. Does it make any sense for them not to have in place a system that could recover, at least very closely to current, the characters and inventory on a server in case of database corruption or other unknown or specified error? Of course not. Are they required to? Nah.... Would it make good sense to at least have a well laid out, and easily found, policy on restoring items/characters? You'd think so, wouldn't you?

Cedwin
10-16-2009, 09:26 AM
Is it just me? That didn't answer the question.... "Do you personally think...?" Looks to me like he just wants to argue and have someone say "Yes, you're right."



The whole point here seems to be a policy issue, and a lack of clarity. Are they capable of setting the system up so they could restore items, or even characters? Absolutely. Does it make any sense for them not to have in place a system that could recover, at least very closely to current, the characters and inventory on a server in case of database corruption or other unknown or specified error? Of course not. Are they required to? Nah.... Would it make good sense to at least have a well laid out, and easily found, policy on restoring items/characters? You'd think so, wouldn't you?

Is it just me, or are you replying to something that I said to someone else just so people can say "Yes, you're right." I don't recall answering a question "Do you personally think?.." in the first place, could you quote that? Did I go over your head? Is that why you are lashing out at me?

I also love how you think you are the one person in this thread that can sum everything up for the laymen to understand. Good Jorb.

Ahhzz
10-16-2009, 09:51 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2486401&postcount=35


actually, I was quoting you responding to OP asking a question to someone else. Also still noting you seem to want to point out that there are ways that Turbine can set things up to make it impossible to retrieve items/char. Noone disagrees with that. We just all seem to think it would be idiotic to run the database that way.

Cedwin
10-16-2009, 09:57 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2486401&postcount=35


actually, I was quoting you responding to OP asking a question to someone else. Also still noting you seem to want to point out that there are ways that Turbine can set things up to make it impossible to retrieve items/char. Noone disagrees with that. We just all seem to think it would be idiotic to run the database that way.

It would be idiotic to permanently delete a character from their database after they type in their name to permanently delete their character? I'm not saying that it just connects directly to the database and deletes the rows, but I'm sure through the business logic it connects to a stored procedure and deletes the data for that character.

They probably have some sort of transactional backup going, but restoring it would be in a higher support tier than what a standard GM can do.

Neofolis
10-16-2009, 10:31 AM
I also find it unlikely that anything is deleted directly from the server, that said, if someone's account was hacked by a person or software, would there be any way to undo changes that were made. If not, then everyone is at risk. It doesn't take great software engineering skills to create a program that generates and enters random user/password combinations until one works.

Going back to my previous post. I am not an experiences D&D'er compared with many people. I have played most, if not all of the computer variants of the game since Balder's Gate. My wife, on the other hand has played D&D since childhood, pen & paper and didn't realize that the benefits of the Drow race were not what I was expecting. I totally agree that with more research, I could have found out the information that I now know without buying the race, but given that it is fairly basic information, it should be available in the shop. I appreciate that the F2P version will open up the game to a wider audience, but I don't believe Turbine only aimed for the game to be played by experienced D&D'ers at any point. Why would they deliberately limit their market?

As far as my tome, which is bound to account, is concerned, this strikes me as a blatant falsehood, it is bound to server, not account. Unless I can transfer the item between servers or freely transfer the character between servers, then the item should be classed as bound to server. I don't understand why the item doesn't appear in the inventory of each character on the account and then disappear from all characters when one character uses it. I realize the software and servers are not setup to work that way, but it would seem like a better way to have things setup.

Cedwin
10-16-2009, 11:20 AM
I also find it unlikely that anything is deleted directly from the server, that said, if someone's account was hacked by a person or software, would there be any way to undo changes that were made. If not, then everyone is at risk. It doesn't take great software engineering skills to create a program that generates and enters random user/password combinations until one works.


That's just silly, not only would they need to know your account name, but they would also need to guess your password, which if you put in a strong password it could take years to brute force it. But I digress, that's what the transactional backups would be for, a just in case measure that would allow a person to get their characters back if hijacked. Even then, I'm not sure that Turbine would restore them for you... it may fall under their "tough luck you should have chosen a better password" policy.

Froglodyte
10-16-2009, 05:43 PM
"It would be idiotic to permanently delete a character from their database after they type in their name to permanently delete their character?"

Yep.

Neofolis
10-17-2009, 10:28 AM
That's just silly, not only would they need to know your account name, but they would also need to guess your password, which if you put in a strong password it could take years to brute force it. But I digress, that's what the transactional backups would be for, a just in case measure that would allow a person to get their characters back if hijacked. Even then, I'm not sure that Turbine would restore them for you... it may fall under their "tough luck you should have chosen a better password" policy.

Yes, I realize that any cracker with any experience would not just create software that randomly enters alphanumerics until there is a match, they would be trying to access the username/password combinations directly from the database, but no-one has unhackable security, which is why any sensitive or valuable data is backed up. It is therefore safe to assume that Turbine could restore deleted characters, if they chose to do so.

Ingo
10-17-2009, 10:44 AM
If each user has an individual row in a "users" table, with multiple tables storing various other info about the user, once the user is removed from the users table it would delete all associations between it and other tables (which are probably cleaned up during deletion anyways). The only way to restore a "single" row in a table would be to restore the database to a previous point, which is a "roll-back", so recovering your character would also roll everyone else (on your server) back to just before you did.

Actually, you'd setup a separate, empty, database and do a point-in-time restore to just prior to the time of character deletion using the base and transactional backups from the production database. Then extract the records for the deleted toon from that and re-insert them into production, possibly after correcting for primary key values that have been reused (if they are reused).

Technically pretty straightforward, but the cost of doing this would make the fee for the service prohibitive, and would likely just generate rants ($2000 to restore a deleted character??!!??) and result in bad PR rather than revenue.

/I've been talking customers through this kind of restore following severe ID-10T errors for years.
//And just last week I carefully vaulted or sold all the equipment from a toon before a re-roll and then deleted it before mailing the cash. D'oh! Fortunately was only 1k plat from a level 2.
///Be careful out there!

Rhun_of_Rhenged
10-20-2009, 01:03 AM
I'm unhappy right now.

This is only my fifth post in this forum and probably my last.

My other thread...no-one responds to the posts I make, so whatever.

Anyway Frog, here's what I mentioned earlier in the month, about that problem of proclivity with Online services. Take note of this last sentence. Sound familiar?

Quote from wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Live

Pricing and subscriptions
Xbox Live comes with two levels of subscriptions. One being the basic Silver level which is free but with limited features, while the Gold premium level requires a paid subscription. Every new Xbox 360 includes a one month subscription to Xbox Live Gold if the player is new to Xbox Live (new account). To continue the Gold membership level the user either pays with a credit card, for $50 a year, through the Xbox 360 or may purchase one of the pre-paid Gold subscription cards available at retail stores.

If users associate a credit card with their Xbox Live account, when the current subscription ends, it is renewed automatically by default. When this occurs, a notification e-mail is sent to the e-mail address registered for the account. In order to cancel or change automatic renewal, users are required to phone a customer service number or by visiting https://billing.microsoft.com, as cancellations cannot be made directly from the console. This procedure has been criticized by some users, particularly with respects to requests made by customer service operators concerning the reasons for cancellation

Kapyong
10-27-2009, 06:28 PM
Gday,


As I said, if the user is deleting stuff directly without any data protection, they're incompetent. I don't believe they're incompetent.
As analogy, I'd also say that a bank was incompetent if they didn't lock safe-deposit boxes so that anyone who was looking in their own box could just go open and poke around in someone else's.


Your analogy is false.
People CANNOT delete someone ELSE's character.

They can only delete their own.

Can you explain why you think allowing people to delete something THEY created is 'incompetent. ?


K.

Kapyong
10-27-2009, 06:30 PM
Gday,


It's MY fault. And while I was exasperated and emotional in those first posts, I stand by the initial warning, which is that you should be VERY CAREFUL buying stuff there, because it's all caveat emptor.


Sure, it's good advice to be careful and avoid making mistakes.

But you seem to be BOTH :
* admitting YOU made an error
AND
* blaming them for it !


K.

Ereshkigal
10-27-2009, 08:06 PM
I like the mechanism that is employed by eve-online. If you want to delete a character in that game you choose to do so, then that character sits in a queue for ( at least ) 24 hours. After that 24 hour time period elapses you can then choose to click once again to delete the character. At any time while the character is still in the queue you can choose to cancel your actions, retrieve the character, and continue playing like nothing ever happened.

Saves them a lot of complaints I would bet.

westerndragon207
10-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Well lets just say this...

I played an MMO for over 4 years paid membership (i wont say the name because i dont know if i can and its not WOW)

their game server crashed in the middle of my combat then when the server came back up i had died and been sent back to respawn NAKED.

I fought with the company for over a month about returning YEARS worth of acquired weapons and armor.

Finally after several conversations with game moderators I logged into my account to find that most of my items had been returned and I was given several million GP for my character (to replace what they couldn't recover)

Bottom line is. You mess up, you pay.

now i dont know exactly what you did during the crash so i cant say for certain if you deserve your stuff back.

but i will say that if a technical difficulty on the side of the game provider causes loss of character or items it would be a very very good practice to see that those players are "repaired"

I work as a computer repair tech and I know that if i accidently remove or corrupt someones data i need to do my best to make sure that customer is satisfied.

Neofolis
10-29-2009, 10:56 AM
I'm still frustrated about my Tome. Having paid the equivalent of $30 for a +2 tome (all stats), that is described as "bound to account", to actually get it on the character I want I have to pay:

$9.99 to change the name of the character (or delete a character with the same name on a different server.
$24.99 to transfer the character to the different server.
>$15.00 for enough points to buy a shared account on the necessary server.

Not only that, but I have to wait up to two weeks for the name change, then wait up to another two weeks for the character transfer.

There is no mention anywhere in the store that, if you buy something that is bound to account, you may potentially have to spend another $50 and wait up to a month to get the item onto the character you want it on. There isn't even any mention that you need a shared account to transfer the item on the same server.

Are people expected to trawl through forums to get any information before making what should be a simple purchase, because there is no mention anywhere that you should do that either.