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Gol
10-08-2009, 12:50 PM
And to change 1 class level, you have to reroll at level 1 with a steeper XP curve.

Wow... Just wow...

reference: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066

Ranmaru2
10-08-2009, 01:00 PM
The continue to make VIP look like it's the wrong choice to be to play this game, don't they?

edit: Why put 32 point and veteran status in the store? You need to learn to play before you utilize these things! Oh wait...can't bring up this argument, please ignore :p

So far I don't like the look of the preview notes...

Ron
10-08-2009, 01:01 PM
The continue to make VIP look like it's the wrong choice to be to play this game, don't they?

How so? What exactly is it that you guys are complaining about? There are three different options there for respecing. Two of them allow you to keep your XP and favor. What is the problem?

Dylos_Moon
10-08-2009, 01:02 PM
And to change 1 class level, you have to reroll at level 1 with a steeper XP curve.

And become a 34 point build...

Seems like a fair trade off to me.

Gol
10-08-2009, 01:03 PM
How so? What exactly is it that you guys are complaining about? There are three different options there for respecing. Two of them allow you to keep your XP and favor. What is the problem?
It's not respec, it's just stat redistribution.

Respec requires rerolling on a steeper xp curve.

Gol
10-08-2009, 01:04 PM
And become a 34 point build...

Seems like a fair trade off to me.
I don't want a 34 point build. I don't want to lose my tomes. I don't even want to change my stats. I want to drop 1 class level.

Ranmaru2
10-08-2009, 01:05 PM
How so? What exactly is it that you guys are complaining about? There are three different options there for respecing. Two of them allow you to keep your XP and favor. What is the problem?

The only comment I'll put on this one as it might turn into that other locked thread is that they're removing all sense of accomplishment from the game when all you can do is whip out a friggin credit card and HURRAY you don't have to run the content in the game anymore to unlock stuff. It's almost like those people who show you how to get XBox 360 and PS3 achievements and then you hear people brag about 100%-ing a game.

JayDubya
10-08-2009, 01:05 PM
It's not respec, it's just stat redistribution.

Respec requires rerolling on a steeper xp curve.

Except that you get to keep your bound gear and you get a free feat

I'm curious, how do other games handle changing class make-up during a respec?

KoboldKiller
10-08-2009, 01:07 PM
Plus unless I read it wrong you can re-create an alt with 34 points now.

Delt
10-08-2009, 01:08 PM
That's pretty damn interesting...the True Res option.

Mockduck
10-08-2009, 01:08 PM
I was against 32 point builds in the store until I realized that F2P players cannot achieve enough favor to unlock the builds without buying a bunch of adventure packs. It changed my mind on it.

I'm loving what I've been reading myself. It's huge. Epic, even.

JayDubya
10-08-2009, 01:10 PM
The only comment I'll put on this one as it might turn into that other locked thread is that they're removing all sense of accomplishment from the game when all you can do is whip out a friggin credit card and HURRAY you don't have to run the content in the game anymore to unlock stuff. It's almost like those people who show you how to get XBox 360 and PS3 achievements and then you hear people brag about 100%-ing a game.

What you are saying is : "It removes all sense of accomplishment when I can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"

But what you really mean, as far as I can tell, is: "It makes me annoyed that other people can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"

Because, of course, you don't have to use a credit card to unlock those things, and then the accomplishment is quite significant (for example, I feel awesome about getting 2500 favor to get my FvS, and even though other people bought one, it does not diminish my personal sense of accomplishment)

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 01:10 PM
I was against 32 point builds in the store until I realized that F2P players cannot achieve enough favor to unlock the builds without buying a bunch of adventure packs. It changed my mind on it.

I'm loving what I've been reading myself. It's huge. Epic, even.

a lot of it is god 32pt at the store is fine, its not like you can tell or anything anyway

greater respec is disappointing as its only benefit is to turn a 28 pt build into a 32, meaning I pay more because my char is older, there is no real benefit

Gol
10-08-2009, 01:14 PM
Except that you get to keep your bound gear and you get a free feat

I'm curious, how do other games handle changing class make-up during a respec?
What other games have multiclassing?

Ranmaru2
10-08-2009, 01:19 PM
What you are saying is : "It removes all sense of accomplishment when I can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"

But what you really mean, as far as I can tell, is: "It makes me annoyed that other people can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"

Because, of course, you don't have to use a credit card to unlock those things, and then the accomplishment is quite significant (for example, I feel awesome about getting 2500 favor to get my FvS, and even though other people bought one, it does not diminish my personal sense of accomplishment)

like I said that's my last comment on that in here, you want to continue this, PM me.

Anyway..the respec sounds interesting indeed. I might do that for my first character or I may not...I'd have to learn more about it, like keeping +3 tomes and such...

SableShadow
10-08-2009, 02:19 PM
What other games have multiclassing?

Strong point. Putting the 'modify my classes' in with the 'powergamer grind' is a little off. An intermediate option that does, say, single class levels would be a good thing.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 03:00 PM
Strong point. Putting the 'modify my classes' in with the 'powergamer grind' is a little off. An intermediate option that does, say, single class levels would be a good thing.

Or even a near true reincarnation that does everything but the feat, size, and stat points would be nice. Just keep the standard xp, but will let you fix glaring errors.

The additional benefit for that one, would be you could do it if you somehow screw up your second reincarnated character.

Harncw
10-08-2009, 03:16 PM
I don't want a 34 point build. I don't want to lose my tomes. I don't even want to change my stats. I want to drop 1 class level.


Today you have one more solution to that problem.

Gol
10-08-2009, 03:31 PM
Today you have one more solution to that problem.
I realize the technicality you're presenting, but it's no consolation to the problem at hand.

Samadhi
10-08-2009, 04:29 PM
I don't want a 34 point build. I don't want to lose my tomes. I don't even want to change my stats. I want to drop 1 class level.

I have one character in the same boat - it sucks :( - I'm witholding final judgment until I see how ugly the XP penalty is though.

BlackSteel
10-08-2009, 04:37 PM
What you are saying is : "It removes all sense of accomplishment when I can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"


in order to True Rez you have to hit lvl 20 first, then lvl 20 again, for 3 complete 1-20 journeys on a single character. credit card isnt going to play the game for you.

Impaqt
10-08-2009, 04:38 PM
I too would like to see an option that alows us to modify our level makeup without starting over with a steeper XP Curve...

I plan on providing feedback to that regard after we actually see this stuff in action.

It just going to the preview server now. Look at what we got accomplished with the BAB System changes even after it went live! The devs do listen.

Hafeal
10-08-2009, 04:52 PM
Well, it is pretty much everything the player base has been calling for - 32 pt builds in the Store and respec options. All there, check.

I am curious as to the pricing on much of this ... but I will bet dollars to donuts at least 595 and up. And I further wager that many VIPs who weren't spending their points now have an incentive to do so. People will do it just to get the 2 extra points.

Impaqt
10-08-2009, 04:57 PM
Well, it is pretty much everything the player base has been calling for - 32 pt builds in the Store and respec options. All there, check.

I am curious as to the pricing on much of this ... but I will bet dollars to donuts at least 595 and up. And I further wager that many VIPs who weren't spending their points now have an incentive to do so. People will do it just to get the 2 extra points.

True doesnt really appeal to me at all... 2 extra points is hardly noticeable. and who knows what the xp progression is gonna be? Hopefully not too much more than current, but sheesh, we need 1.9 Million XP as it is to cap.... the high end grind for XP is getting rather monotonous with the current progression.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 05:04 PM
Well, it is pretty much everything the player base has been calling for - 32 pt builds in the Store and respec options. All there, check.
False.

Much of the reason to desire a respec is so you can avoid having to reroll. But for very many characters, respec by this system will be practically identical to rerolling. It is undesirable for the cost to change a fairly minor thing to be the same as to change totally everything.

Nahual
10-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Not sure how you would do it though. Seems the only way to respect is like this, becaues if you want to change that 1 level of rogue, but it was the first level you gained youd really have to go back to lvl 0 to change it.

What if it was your lvl 4, then you'd have to go back all the way to lvl 3 to change it.
Dont think there would be a easy way to just take off that one level, without taking all of the other ones.

Hafeal
10-08-2009, 08:05 PM
False.

Much of the reason to desire a respec is so you can avoid having to reroll. But for very many characters, respec by this system will be practically identical to rerolling. It is undesirable for the cost to change a fairly minor thing to be the same as to change totally everything.

Hmmm ... "Respec" is a widely discussed phrase with no consistent meaning. In fact I started a thread some time ago just to define what it meant to different players. I never believed a respec to include changing alignments, gender or race - but Turbine has allowed it. I never included a respec to include modifying classes already taken, but they give that too. The only aspect to respec I have ever felt was missing was skills - and they have given that.

It seems to me, Turbine has been pretty generous with what they are allowing. If they allow "easy" button class changes without a re-leveling, I think it would be a spur for abuse on multi-classing and how it is done. I don't see this set-up as hurting "many" characters. Characters who were gimped or who took a splash have either re-rolled or learned to live with their decision. And if they have lived with it to level 16+, I guess maybe they are not so gimped? And, if they are just desirous of making a change - they can, and keep their stuff.

As for the time to re-level, isn't that why we play? The game is fun &^%dammit. ;)

SableShadow
10-08-2009, 08:40 PM
Dont think there would be a easy way to just take off that one level, without taking all of the other ones.

Seems like (since none of us has seen it yet) the mechanic resets you, then walks you through your levels one at a time anyway.

Just offer a 'swap this class/level' token at the start of the process via a Fred-like menu before you do it. Slap a timer on the process (a month?) as you do in the current feat respec system.




As for the time to re-level, isn't that why we play? The game is fun &^%dammit. ;)

Thing is, what's here is more a power gamer widget (cap 20, get 'special feat', relevel at an xp penalty) than a 'fix a level' tool. I don't think you want to lump those together, because those are not the same audience.

Without having to rehash the whole series of respec threads, I think the game needs a widget similar to the current feat respec system that lets you do a tweak on something you wouldn't run to the cap then rerun.

Kistilan
10-08-2009, 08:45 PM
I don't want a 34 point build. I don't want to lose my tomes. I don't even want to change my stats. I want to drop 1 class level.

You can always reroll. :D (I think this option was alluded to, but I wanted to put away any doubt).

Although... since you love your guy and don't want to lose his work, the term True Reincarnation seems to fix your issue better.

Kistilan
10-08-2009, 08:49 PM
Without having to rehash the whole series of respec threads, I think the game needs a widget similar to the current feat respec system that lets you do a tweak on something you wouldn't run to the cap then rerun.

I don't think that widget is going to be offered.

They came, they saw, they evaluated. They decided the empty harbor was not in their best interests.

I'm happy to see most of how this panned out -- the respec thread wars wasn't a waste of time.

Borror0
10-08-2009, 09:11 PM
What you are saying is : "It removes all sense of accomplishment when I can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"

But what you really mean, as far as I can tell, is: "It makes me annoyed that other people can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"
No, he meant the first one.

Whether it's really a problem for the achievement that 1750 favor is to remain "difficult" is another question, however.

Much of the reason to desire a respec is so you can avoid having to reroll. But for very many characters, respec by this system will be practically identical to rerolling. It is undesirable for the cost to change a fairly minor thing to be the same as to change totally everything.
This.

"Respec" is a widely discussed phrase with no consistent meaning. In fact I started a thread some time ago just to define what it meant to different players.
That is false. You started a thread to determinate what people meant by "full respec".

What is a respec and the reason as to why people want to respec never were the topic of discussion.

That is, no one ever questioned that the fact that, if one desires a respec, it is to avoid rerolling. After all, there is no other reason to desire that. As Angelus_dead pointed out, to a lot of characters, this is no different than rerolling that should be a problem when changing a minor thing.

Hafeal
10-08-2009, 09:53 PM
That is false. You started a thread to determinate what people meant by "full respec".

What is a respec and the reason as to why people want to respec never were the topic of discussion.


Ah, yes, the honey was too much for the bee to resist.

Asking people what other players consider a "full respec" to be by nature of the very question IS addressing the question "What is a respec[?]" As you were 1st to post in the thread, you might want to re-visit it. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168894


That is, no one ever questioned that the fact that, if one desires a respec, it is to avoid rerolling. After all, there is no other reason to desire that. As Angelus_dead pointed out, to a lot of characters, this is no different than rerolling that should be a problem when changing a minor thing.


I think the reason to ask the question, as I had, is for the very nature of the extent people want the ability to make changes with little consequence. As I asserted then, and as I assert now, Turbine is allowing a greater changes than I would were I DM. As it is, if you want to change your classes and "erase" time - your DM has determined there is a price to be paid.

I guess I am not convinced that there are "large" numbers of people who took a "mistake" class and continued to play that character to cap and now want to change. I have acknowledged in the past if someone went to the sorc trainer instead of the wizard trainer and somehow managed to finish raising up before realizing it - there should be a remedy; but perhaps through contacting an in-game DM. I am not of the mind to make it easy for people to drop classes easily because the flavor-of the-month build now uses a monk splash instead of a rogue and they want to use a short-cut to modify their existing character v. creating a new one.

Quikster
10-08-2009, 10:01 PM
No, he meant the first one.

Whether it's really a problem for the achievement that 1750 favor is to remain "difficult" is another question, however.

This.

That is false. You started a thread to determinate what people meant by "full respec".

What is a respec and the reason as to why people want to respec never were the topic of discussion.

That is, no one ever questioned that the fact that, if one desires a respec, it is to avoid rerolling. After all, there is no other reason to desire that. As Angelus_dead pointed out, to a lot of characters, this is no different than rerolling that should be a problem when changing a minor thing.

Personally, I dont think switching out a level is a minor thing. Especially if we start talking about changing alignments to do it. I think the mechanism as presented seems fair. Obviously we will have to wait and see how some of it is implemented in game, but on the whole, I like the idea of changing a class/splash costing someone. IMO it should be a significant cost to discourage abuse.

Kistilan
10-08-2009, 10:01 PM
Ah, yes, the honey was too much for the bee to resist.

Asking people what other players consider a "full respec" to be by nature of the very question IS addressing the question "What is a respec[?]" As you were 1st to post in the thread, you might want to re-visit it. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168894



I think the reason to ask the question, as I had, is for the very nature of the extent people want the ability to make changes with little consequence. As I asserted then, and as I assert now, Turbine is allowing a greater changes than I would were I DM. As it is, if you want to change your classes and "erase" time - your DM has determined there is a price to be paid.

I guess I am not convinced that there are "large" numbers of people who took a "mistake" class and continued to play that character to cap and now want to change. I have acknowledged in the past if someone went to the sorc trainer instead of the wizard trainer and somehow managed to finish raising up before realizing it - there should be a remedy; but perhaps through contacting an in-game DM. I am not of the mind to make it easy for people to drop classes easily because the flavor-of the-month build now uses a monk splash instead of a rogue and they want to use a short-cut to modify their existing character v. creating a new one.

/qft

And Awesome. A Foot or A Mile. Turbine gave a foot. I applaud them on what they did do to appease "the masses." I hope they can appreciate the many things like skills that can now be fixed.

Have no fear, your Intimitank can now be effective! And your Bluff can now be removed! And if you don't want Swim, you can get rid of that too!

Easily over half of the arguments have been corrected by all of the Reincarnation options, at a reasonable price, and at a reasonable limit.

PS: What Is Respec & Why Do People Want It was heavily debated in That Which Has No Life (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202&highlight=Time+Respec). He knows better.

PPS: When did that thing get a lock!?! :eek: I must have been extended afk... The Ultimate Necro has been taken away. I had a Dream... and now that Dream is gone from me.

Mhykke
10-08-2009, 10:15 PM
Well, it is pretty much everything the player base has been calling for - 32 pt builds in the Store and respec options. All there, check.

The player base was calling for those that respec to get +2 build points every time they do (up to 2 times) and an ability to keep feats from past lives from different classes?

Funny, I don't remember 1 single person asking for those things.

My question is why they added in all this extra stuff, which makes characters even more powerful, which in turn they had to add in additional obstacles (going all the way to 20 for example).

Borror0
10-08-2009, 10:16 PM
Asking people what other players consider a "full respec" to be by nature of the very question IS addressing the question "What is a respec[?]"
Technically, yes, but as I pointed out the definition of respec what not under debate.

The debate was uniquely about how the adjective "full" modifies the "respec" noun rather than about what "respec", itself, means.

I guess I am not convinced that there are "large" numbers of people who took a "mistake" class and continued to play that character to cap and now want to change.
It seems you do not understand the position you're arguing against.

Here are a few corrections in your above statement:

It's not only about class but also about alignment.
Changing all class levels is not the same as changing one class level.
The assumption that "[one] continued to play that character to cap" does not make sense to assume.
It is dubious to label "a mistake" something that was a judicious choice before the game's rules were changed.


As it is, if you want to change your classes and "erase" time - your DM has determined there is a price to be paid.
That DM would be enforcing an imbecile grind on his players. Hardly a good DM.

As for the time to re-level, isn't that why we play? The game is fun &^%dammit. ;)
I love to roll new alts but reexploring the game with the same character multiple times is not all that interesting. Even more so if I could be playing with buddies at higher levels. Additionally, there are times where I can be fed up of playing low levels and would rather play high levels.

Forcing a player through a process he has no interest into at the moment to adapt to design changes is not necessarily what I would call conductive of fun gameplay.

Kistilan
10-08-2009, 10:19 PM
The player base was calling for those that respec to get +2 build points every time they do (up to 2 times) and an ability to keep feats from past lives from different classes?

Funny, I don't remember 1 single person asking for those things.

My question is why they added in all this extra stuff, which makes characters even more powerful, which in turn they had to add in additional obstacles (going all the way to 20 for example).

They want you playing longer. I don't think you'll get them to SAY that, but that's what they want.

It has the things the player base was asking for. It has some extras to help extend the cost to level 20 and reroll (while achieving quite a few of the things requested by the player base that wanted respecs).

Mhykke
10-08-2009, 10:25 PM
They want you playing longer. I don't think you'll get them to SAY that, but that's what they want.

It has the things the player base was asking for. It has some extras to help extend the cost to level 20 and reroll (while achieving quite a few of the things requested by the player base that wanted respecs).

And they're 2 separate issues. Why bundle them together? Some people don't want more powerful characters, some do.

Why not add those features in separately. For anyone that wants to get +4 build points by respeccing twice, the ability would be there. For others, that simply want to change something on their characters without getting more build points or feats from other classes, the ability would be there as well.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 10:30 PM
Personally, I dont think switching out a level is a minor thing.
Look:
1. Joe wants to go from Fig17/Rog3 to Fig18/Rog2, because there was no such thing as specialty enhancements back when he took Rog3.

2. Ted wants to go from Fig10/Rog10 to Ran19/Monk1, and also upgrade from 28 to 34 build points.

Why should both of those changes have the same cost? Isn't one of them "minor" compared to the other?

manfredshw
10-08-2009, 10:41 PM
I just can't give up my tomes.
How many days I had spent on these tomes.
I need to relevel and re-grind.

Dreaming darkness......

Quikster
10-08-2009, 11:11 PM
Look:
1. Joe wants to go from Fig17/Rog3 to Fig18/Rog2, because there was no such thing as specialty enhancements back when he took Rog3.

2. Ted wants to go from Fig10/Rog10 to Ran19/Monk1, and also upgrade from 28 to 34 build points.

Why should both of those changes have the same cost? Isn't one of them "minor" compared to the other?

I believe the 28 V 32 pt issue, and the changing class issue are seperate.

The first imo should be automatic at a certain favor level imo.

So leaving just the second, does it really matter if you want to dump the 1 sorc level one a cleric, or the third paly level on a ranger vs 10 levels of a certain class? To me it does not. Here is why, what is the biggest reason of not rerolling quoted by most players here? I see so many posts stating, " If I could keep my chattering ring, DT, 6 shroud items/weapons, 3 +3 tomes, I would reroll" I also see the,"i don't wanna spend the time, I can live with it" line as well.

I think the system as presented gives a good balance between the issue of losing all your loot and rerolling, and the easy button of oh I didn't know not to take that 3rd paly level on my ranger, or whatever. I rerolled a dex rog recently, but kept the original. The reroll is 17, but only has dual lit II and the IR for bound gear. With this option I can keep the original and his 150 + larges and tons of raid loot, and only have to reacquire tomes. IMO that shouldn't be cheap, even though its "not my fault I piacked the wrong alignment in mod6 to take a monk splash"

Its obviously just my opinion.

Orratti
10-09-2009, 12:10 AM
I am only interested in how it will work. I rebuild characters usually at least twice, some may say that if I knew what I was doing I would do it right the first time but all of them are experiments when they are created to test how things I haven't seen others do will work. I'm sure I have made copies of forum builds, more likely near copies but I like to come up with my own ideas instead of copying someone elses. Even if I am repeating someone elses work it is still new to me. How this reincarnation thing is actually going to work I am very curious about. So far it just sounds like a new character with some extra build points and loot bound to the previous character. Is that all it is or is there something I'm missing?

Samadhi
10-09-2009, 01:06 AM
Look:
1. Joe wants to go from Fig17/Rog3 to Fig18/Rog2, because there was no such thing as specialty enhancements back when he took Rog3.

2. Ted wants to go from Fig10/Rog10 to Ran19/Monk1, and also upgrade from 28 to 34 build points.

Why should both of those changes have the same cost? Isn't one of them "minor" compared to the other?

Exactly. Granted, my "guess" is that the reason things ended the way they did was more due to implementation than one they were designing for. But then again, someone obviously thought this "size" increase would be something everyone would want too...

bobbryan2
10-09-2009, 01:55 AM
/qft

And Awesome. A Foot or A Mile. Turbine gave a foot. I applaud them on what they did do to appease "the masses." I hope they can appreciate the many things like skills that can now be fixed.

Have no fear, your Intimitank can now be effective! And your Bluff can now be removed! And if you don't want Swim, you can get rid of that too!

Easily over half of the arguments have been corrected by all of the Reincarnation options, at a reasonable price, and at a reasonable limit.

PS: What Is Respec & Why Do People Want It was heavily debated in That Which Has No Life (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202&highlight=Time+Respec). He knows better.

PPS: When did that thing get a lock!?! :eek: I must have been extended afk... The Ultimate Necro has been taken away. I had a Dream... and now that Dream is gone from me.

No... Turbine gave a mile. They just didn't give a mile and a foot. The respec options pretty much offer every single thing that most people wanted. They just bundled them together oddly.

No one is wanting extra functionality.. they're just wanting them to be bundled a little differently.

spyderwolf
10-09-2009, 02:21 AM
skills and abilties minor changes - lesser and greater reincarnate

classes and alignment major change - true reincarnate

turbine isnt forcing you to utilize any of it. if releveling is too much work in your opinion , then dont.


the lesser and greaters have 0 drawbacks , the true has 2 big drawbacks (having to be 20 and having to relevel) but thsoe drawbacks are insignificant since it means saving a toons gear. all you have to do is level up again , no grind for all hte raid gear seems fair to me. i can take the hit to tomes in order to not have to run 134 titans on my pally to get the ring .

mediocresurgeon
10-09-2009, 04:05 AM
Sweet! Level 20 Demon Queen raid! And options to enhance my loot! What would an enhanced Bloodstone look like? Or an enhanced Spell Storing Ring? Enhanced Specteral Gloves? Enhanced Whirlwind? That's some pretty badass loot they are talking about!

Could it be possible... to make the DQ bracers even more badass than they currently are???

Oh, and I am all for True Reincarnate if it gives my barbarian Improved Evasion. And my barbarian already ate all his tomes and is capped on favor. It would totally be worth it.

Except that it might un-gimp Spyderwolf. Sarlona should boycott True Reincarnate on this fact alone!

Hendrik
10-09-2009, 07:01 AM
How so? What exactly is it that you guys are complaining about? There are three different options there for respecing. Two of them allow you to keep your XP and favor. What is the problem?

They can't have it all Ron, that's the problem.

Hafeal
10-09-2009, 07:02 AM
Technically, yes,

Say no more. Thank you for that admission, it wasn't so bad? I have admitted I am wrong on these forums - just recently in fact about slayer numbers in Korthos. It happens.


but as I pointed out the definition of respec what not under debate.

...but always the "qualifier." The definition of respec was under debate; that IS what the thread was about. You can see the variations from the first page of responses.



It seems you do not understand the position you're arguing against.

Here are a few corrections in your above statement:

Here's what gets me - why are so many of your posts blanket assertions and more along the guise of a forum bully: "false"; "you're wrong"; "you do not understand"; "you need to be corrected"; "here is your faulty logic". There is a way to use tact and a deft touch to assert a position without defaulting to harsh, attacking opinions. To me, these bull in a chinashop posts of yours do nothing but demonstrate an attempt by you to show-off your forum posting prowess and a seeming constant need to demonstrate some infallible sense of logic and understanding all your lesser forumites seem to lack in your world.




It's not only about class but also about alignment.

Alignment should not be easily changed. In a pnp game, although alignment can change; it is a lengthy process made through moral decisions. We really do not get that here but as this is a game based on pnp, I think alignment should be a matter that was thought out at creation. I also do not object if Turbine creates a stringent requirement to change it.





Changing all class levels is not the same as changing one class level.
The assumption that "[one] continued to play that character to cap" does not make sense to assume.
It is dubious to label "a mistake" something that was a judicious choice before the game's rules were changed.

To you in your opinion. I disagree, in my opinion.


That DM would be enforcing an imbecile grind on his players. Hardly a good DM.

MMO's are different from pnp in that regard, imo, because real world time functions differently as does your ability to play out content. You can finish a quest in 15 minutes here that might take a month in a pnp session. Grinding is part of MMOs. It has been part of DDO and will continue to be from what I can see.


I love to roll new alts but reexploring the game with the same character multiple times is not all that interesting. Even more so if I could be playing with buddies at higher levels. Additionally, there are times where I can be fed up of playing low levels and would rather play high levels.

Forcing a player through a process he has no interest into at the moment to adapt to design changes is not necessarily what I would call conductive of fun gameplay.

For you. Then do not do it.


The player base was calling for those that respec to get +2 build points every time they do (up to 2 times) and an ability to keep feats from past lives from different classes?

Funny, I don't remember 1 single person asking for those things.

Nice. You do remember the many threads for 32 pt builds and respecs? Turbine giving the extra goodies was on their part; they are the DM.


Look ... Why should both of those changes have the same cost? Isn't one of them "minor" compared to the other?

No. I don't consider them to be minor, and neither does Turbine apparently. I agree with Quikster.


I believe the 28 V 32 pt issue, and the changing class issue are seperate.

The first imo should be automatic at a certain favor level imo.

So leaving just the second, does it really matter if you want to dump the 1 sorc level one a cleric, or the third paly level on a ranger vs 10 levels of a certain class? To me it does not. Here is why, what is the biggest reason of not rerolling quoted by most players here? I see so many posts stating, " If I could keep my chattering ring, DT, 6 shroud items/weapons, 3 +3 tomes, I would reroll" I also see the,"i don't wanna spend the time, I can live with it" line as well.

I think the system as presented gives a good balance between the issue of losing all your loot and rerolling, and the easy button of oh I didn't know not to take that 3rd paly level on my ranger, or whatever. I rerolled a dex rog recently, but kept the original. The reroll is 17, but only has dual lit II and the IR for bound gear. With this option I can keep the original and his 150 + larges and tons of raid loot, and only have to reacquire tomes. IMO that shouldn't be cheap, even though its "not my fault I piacked the wrong alignment in mod6 to take a monk splash"

Its obviously just my opinion.

whysper
10-09-2009, 07:13 AM
I have one character in the same boat - it sucks :( - I'm witholding final judgment until I see how ugly the XP penalty is though.

It will be either 20%, or 10% - by a curious coincidence, the same factor you can make up with an XP potion from the store.

quintuss
10-09-2009, 07:43 AM
It will be either 20%, or 10% - by a curious coincidence, the same factor you can make up with an XP potion from the store.

I'm pretty sure that the introduction of a rerolling mechanism that destroys all previously eaten tomes and the introduction of +2 tomes to the store is just coincidence too. :p

With ddo:EU they've put the thumbscrews in place and with update1 they are starting to use them. :(

Borror0
10-09-2009, 08:06 AM
Here's what gets me - why are so many of your posts blanket assertions and more along the guise of a forum bully: "false"; "you're wrong"; "you do not understand"; "you need to be corrected"; "here is your faulty logic". There is a way to use tact and a deft touch to assert a position without defaulting to harsh, attacking opinions.
Yes, because questioning and challenging them intellectually someone's reasoning is such an impolite thing to do nowadays...

jmelanie7
10-09-2009, 08:10 AM
I don't want a 34 point build. I don't want to lose my tomes. I don't even want to change my stats. I want to drop 1 class level.

http://daverendall.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8349b9ff853ef0115706de27a970b-800wi

96th_Malice
10-09-2009, 08:35 AM
All of these /respec options seem like they be alright for one of my 28 point builds.

I am not gonna lie to you ... I know nothing about the respec feature OTHER than what I have read here from you .

However, I have had a toon capped out at 16th lvl for quite some time and I had NO interest in leveling her to 20th.

BUT

I also couldn't find the nerve to re-roll either.

A respec will be great for this toon and would correct all of the "errors" I made on a toon in a game that was still only 2 weeks old when she was rolled.

Its odd that I have 2 remaining 28 pnt Builds ( Damiya n Danya ) and Damiya worked out extremly well and is still better than any of my 32 point builds, yes Danya's only purpose is wll ........ Hmmmmm I cant think of anything she is good at. Her abilty to turn / destroy undead faded shortly after the XP lvl of Delera's

Anyways, I am quite excited about this ..... I guess I should go read the actual post about this

Later all

Hafeal
10-09-2009, 12:35 PM
Yes, because questioning and challenging them intellectually someone's reasoning is such an impolite thing to do nowadays...

Asserting your own position and attempting to be persuasive is neither impolite nor unwanted. Attacking others with blanket assertions and demeaning comments, however, takes credibility away from the merit of your own points and paints you as nothing more than someone attempting to be a "know it all" intellectual bully.

You could easily assert your opinions politely and persuasively, especially on subjective matters which have no clear answers, without having to resort to the type of commentary I previsouly referenced.

404error
10-09-2009, 12:42 PM
I'm on looking at why the LLama is broke and not other servers we have tested it on.

Gornn
10-09-2009, 12:44 PM
What you are saying is : "It removes all sense of accomplishment when I can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"

But what you really mean, as far as I can tell, is: "It makes me annoyed that other people can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff"

Because, of course, you don't have to use a credit card to unlock those things, and then the accomplishment is quite significant (for example, I feel awesome about getting 2500 favor to get my FvS, and even though other people bought one, it does not diminish my personal sense of accomplishment)

I edited the most important part a little because you are so close to dead on:

But what you really mean, as far as I can tell, is: "It makes me annoyed that other people can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff (that I had to grind out!) I had to work for it so should everyone else."

Borror0
10-09-2009, 12:47 PM
Attacking others with blanket assertions and demeaning comments
of the statements you've accused me of saying, none would fit with the exception of "you need to be corrected" which I have never said.

I edited the most important part a little because you are so close to dead on:

But what you really mean, as far as I can tell, is: "It makes me annoyed that other people can whip out a credit card to unlock stuff (that I had to grind out!) I had to work for it so should everyone else."
Do you you mindread? that would be the only way for you to know that it is what he meant.

Or, do you think that the position Ranmaru says to defend is truly indefensible and thus he must be thinking what you said in the above quote?

Hafeal
10-09-2009, 06:29 PM
In this thread alone, in response to my posts:


That is false.


It seems you do not understand the position you're arguing against.

And then the irony ... in the VERY post responding to me, you make a mean-spirited attack on Gornn:


Do you you mindread? that would be the only way for you to know that it is what he meant.

If you want, I can go through all your posts and show the repeated pattern. Sometimes we do not see what is before our very eyes. It is hard to be objective about one's own behavior.

With regard to Gornn, you could have said, "I don't think you can really infer that meaning from what he posted." Instead, you chose to attempt a verbal whip to elicit a howl from the receiver. I will state again, there are polite and persuasive ways to make a point - you do not need to verbally attack to attempt to prove a point.

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 08:53 AM
In this thread alone, in response to my posts:





And then the irony ... in the VERY post responding to me, you make a mean-spirited attack on Gornn:



If you want, I can go through all your posts and show the repeated pattern. Sometimes we do not see what is before our very eyes. It is hard to be objective about one's own behavior.

With regard to Gornn, you could have said, "I don't think you can really infer that meaning from what he posted." Instead, you chose to attempt a verbal whip to elicit a howl from the receiver. I will state again, there are polite and persuasive ways to make a point - you do not need to verbally attack to attempt to prove a point.

This is why I have certain individuals on ignore.

+1 rep for your candour.

Gol
10-10-2009, 09:17 AM
Really? That hurt your feeling? Oh well...
He's spot on, dude.

WeiQuinn
10-10-2009, 09:17 AM
What other games have multiclassing?

In the good ol' days, SWG had multi-classing, but then they changed it to single class only. Went from 34 classed to 9...

Kistilan
10-10-2009, 09:37 AM
In the good ol' days, SWG had multi-classing, but then they changed it to single class only. Went from 34 classed to 9...

/cry

And that dream left me...

SableShadow
10-11-2009, 12:39 PM
I'd like to see at least build order modified by Greater. I know a few guys who've been playing forever who've got the class levels they want, but not the build order to get what they want from the latest round of PrEs. Doesn't help pures, sure, but some long term multis would get a lot out of it.

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 03:07 PM
I'd like to see at least build order modified by Greater. I know a few guys who've been playing forever who've got the class levels they want, but not the build order to get what they want from the latest round of PrEs. Doesn't help pures, sure, but some long term multis would get a lot out of it.

I see nothing wrong with the build order being a "slight tweak" they could offer.

Swopping out character levels would be too much FotM & un-D&D, best to leave that to the True Reincarnation. But yeah, why not let that guy that decided to take rogue second instead of first put his Rogue at first and then fix it? Or his second rogue at 11th so he can max out a specific skill in ranks, ya know?

Of course that also leads a little to the FotM option -- play as a rogue rogue with evasion from the get-go for the fist 10 levels instead of suffering as basically 1 level lower with a backstab and +2 dex and weak hd and then getting a lot better at level 11 or 12.

*shrugs* It's something to consider at least... I'm not really liking all the imnplications, but most are minor. And... the player would be paying for the advantage they gave themselves, possibly with money that helps development. They wouldn't be swopping out levels of different classes, just reordering -- it could be viable.

SableShadow
10-11-2009, 03:23 PM
I'm not really liking all the imnplications, but most are minor.

I'm frankly amazed that folks haven't brought up Lesser, actually.

If I roll an arcane, I'm going to dump everything into str and con and master's touch/great axe myself up to where spells start sticking well, then put on my 'real' stats.

Similarly rogue, cleric...hell, any of the classes that develop later rather than earlier can (note: can, not will) benefit from doing something like this.

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm frankly amazed that folks haven't brought up Lesser, actually.

If I roll an arcane, I'm going to dump everything into str and con and master's touch/great axe myself up to where spells start sticking well, then put on my 'real' stats.

Similarly rogue, cleric...hell, any of the classes that develop later rather than earlier can (note: can, not will) benefit from doing something like this.

This is very true. I recall being bested by a rogue in a Canith Crystal Elite trial -- only to find the attributes were wonky for a real rogue. Now this can be a common practice.

But, the individual has to be willing to pay for a Reincarnation, so Turbine will make money (or that individual pulls & makes haste with the item on a plan).

SableShadow
10-11-2009, 03:34 PM
This is very true. I recall being bested by a rogue in a Canith Crystal Elite trial -- only to find the attributes were wonky for a real rogue. Now this can be a common practice.

When I see wonky stats/class combos/whatever, I've learned to say to myself "Idiot or genius?" Lotta different ways to do things.


But, the individual has to be willing to pay for a Reincarnation, so Turbine will make money (or that individual pulls & makes haste with the item on a plan).

The punchline is "...but, madam, we've already established what you are. We're simply haggling over the price." ;)

Angelus_dead
10-11-2009, 03:38 PM
If I roll an arcane, I'm going to dump everything into str and con and master's touch/great axe myself up to where spells start sticking well, then put on my 'real' stats.
Why in the world would you do that?

What's the advantage?

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 03:59 PM
When I see wonky stats/class combos/whatever, I've learned to say to myself "Idiot or genius?" Lotta different ways to do things.



The punchline is "...but, madam, we've already established what you are. We're simply haggling over the price." ;)

LMAO!!! I forget what that's from, but I do recall thinking that's one of the wittiest things I've read in awhile.

Well the wonky stats were Mhykke's rogue -- all strength & con. Might as well have been a barbarian. :rolleyes:

maddmatt70
10-11-2009, 04:04 PM
I have to say the OP most definitely sounds like a negative nancy. I agree that reincarnation needs some tweaks. This post though coupled with the FTP vs. VIP posts with how $15, which is less then two tickets to the movies is such an affront just gets real tiresome. I also have a character with that one bad multi-class level which the only way to fix is to respec so I will either true reincarnate or not, but I am happy to have the option.

SableShadow
10-11-2009, 05:07 PM
LMAO!!! I forget what that's from, but I do recall thinking that's one of the wittiest things I've read in awhile.

I think it's Churchill, but I don't have a citation handy.


Well the wonky stats were Mhykke's rogue -- all strength & con. Might as well have been a barbarian. :rolleyes:

Not that wonky. The game rewards str/con pretty heavily at the moment.


Why in the world would you do that?

What's the advantage?

Tweaking effectiveness for a level range, particularly soloing effectiveness.

I'm a caster nub, but the first few levels at least blew by much more quickly on the buff tank version of my bard than either my finesse or caster versions. And I've got the option of specing him over to a pure caster version once I get into the high level range, if I want to.

CrimsonEagle
10-11-2009, 05:19 PM
This is not a respec, this is basicly a reroll with little incentive.

I'm not really happy with this joke.

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 05:30 PM
I think it's Churchill, but I don't have a citation handy.



Not that wonky. The game rewards str/con pretty heavily at the moment.

Tweaking effectiveness for a level range, particularly soloing effectiveness.

I'm a caster nub, but the first few levels at least blew by much more quickly on the buff tank version of my bard than either my finesse or caster versions. And I've got the option of specing him over to a pure caster version once I get into the high level range, if I want to.

You're right, it's Churchill. *L* That guy was awesome.

Well, I am not disagreeing with the build design being rewarded for that, but.... the challenge was to be a level 1 rogue & do Cannith Crystal Elite Solo. So, a little metagaming and stats like...

18 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con 8 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha -- not really the best type of rogue stats. And then to top it off for a free feat you chose Armor Profiency: Heavy and slap some Fullplate on. I can't recall if that's *exactly* the build, but it was wonky -- I was thinking a build that "Most Players" would play -- not someone that wanted to chump someone in a M:TG Pro Tourney.

And yeah, to second that -- Warforged Wiz, 14 Int (First 4 levels of casting will take me to 8th before needing a Lesser Reincarnation). 16 Str, 14 Dex, Mithril Body, 16 Con, 8 Wis, 6 Cha. (Guessing that'd be about right) -- not exactly the numbers you'd use but close. Take Additional Feat: Shield Proficiency & go to town as a fighter with buffs. At level 9 Reincarnate, drop the bs feats & shift the stats to the appropriate area. Best of all, if you found a +2 tome at level 9 or 10 for Int... suddenly you get those skill points after level 7. A little extra Balance, UMD, Jump or Tumble never did hurt.

Mhykke
10-11-2009, 06:59 PM
Well the wonky stats were Mhykke's rogue -- all strength & con. Might as well have been a barbarian. :rolleyes:

Roll your eyes back into the forward position.

Yeah, a str based rogue is reeeaaal "wonky" and strange. I mean, who the heck has heard of a str based rogue? Crazy! Next we'll be hearing about "battleclerics" and twf'ing barbarians! Madness! :rolleyes:


18 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con 8 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha -- not really the best type of rogue stats. And then to top it off for a free feat you chose Armor Profiency: Heavy and slap some Fullplate on. I can't recall if that's *exactly* the build, but it was wonky -- I was thinking a build that "Most Players" would play -- not someone that wanted to chump someone in a M:TG Pro Tourney.

And for your info, while I don't remember the exact stats, I know I didn't have any full plate on that rogue. In fact, I made the challenge harder on myself than what you and bran wanted. You both just wanted a level 1 rogue do crystal elite. Well, someone could run a few of those quests to pick up some items to improve his/her character to run crystal elite. I did not. All I did was create a character, and run nothing except that quest on normal and hard to open up elite. I made it harder on myself than you and bran asked for, by not running anything to equip my character. And again, I had absolutely no full plate on that guy. Seriously, why make up stuff when you have zero clue?

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 07:25 PM
Roll your eyes back into the forward position.

Yeah, a str based rogue is reeeaaal "wonky" and strange. I mean, who the heck has heard of a str based rogue? Crazy! Next we'll be hearing about "battleclerics" and twf'ing barbarians! Madness! :rolleyes:



And for your info, while I don't remember the exact stats, I know I didn't have any full plate on that rogue. In fact, I made the challenge harder on myself than what you and bran wanted. You both just wanted a level 1 rogue do crystal elite. Well, someone could run a few of those quests to pick up some items to improve his/her character to run crystal elite. I did not. All I did was create a character, and run nothing except that quest on normal and hard to open up elite. I made it harder on myself than you and bran asked for, by not running anything to equip my character. And again, I had absolutely no full plate on that guy. Seriously, why make up stuff when you have zero clue?

I said I wasn't sure what you had, but that could have been a potential using FP.

It's wonky to max out the strength if you minimize the Int. I'm guessing you did a non-skill rogue. I should have been more specific and said to make a skill & charisma rogue or a well-rounded rogue. Anyway, I was only using your build as an example of how it would be easy to use the Lesser Reincarnation to floor through low-level content as Brenna pointed out. I am not criticizing you as a person or player -- well-played.

Mhykke
10-11-2009, 07:56 PM
I said I wasn't sure what you had, but that could have been a potential using FP.

It's wonky to max out the strength if you minimize the Int. I'm guessing you did a non-skill rogue. I should have been more specific and said to make a skill & charisma rogue or a well-rounded rogue. Anyway, I was only using your build as an example of how it would be easy to use the Lesser Reincarnation to floor through low-level content as Brenna pointed out. I am not criticizing you as a person or player -- well-played.

Well while we're talking about "most players" or "well rounded rogues", would "most players" run cannith crystal on normal, hard, and elite, by themselves, without running any other quests at all, and without leveling up, getting any other equipment, or taking any enhancements? So you want to use "most players" as an example, but then choose something that "most players" wouldn't do....

Kistilan
10-11-2009, 09:07 PM
Well while we're talking about "most players" or "well rounded rogues", would "most players" run cannith crystal on normal, hard, and elite, by themselves, without running any other quests at all, and without leveling up, getting any other equipment, or taking any enhancements? So you want to use "most players" as an example, but then choose something that "most players" wouldn't do....

Well I viewed you as Special. ;)

PS: I think I was trying to quantify my experience with the Cannith Crystal on elite -- and a 12 str 16 dex 10 con 14 Int 14 wis 12 cha character wasn't cutting it.

BlackRage
10-11-2009, 09:10 PM
Here's what gets me - why are so many of your posts blanket assertions and more along the guise of a forum bully: "false"; "you're wrong"; "you do not understand"; "you need to be corrected"; "here is your faulty logic". There is a way to use tact and a deft touch to assert a position without defaulting to harsh, attacking opinions. To me, these bull in a chinashop posts of yours do nothing but demonstrate an attempt by you to show-off your forum posting prowess and a seeming constant need to demonstrate some infallible sense of logic and understanding all your lesser forumites seem to lack in your world.
He is a forum bully, but he is in this instance actually right :rolleyes:



It's wonky to max out the strength if you minimize the Int. I'm guessing you did a non-skill rogue.
Ever actually played a Rogue? You do know you can get every trap with 08INT?



This is not a respec, this is basicly a reroll with little incentive.
I'm not really happy with this joke.
QFT - I do not even find the joke funny :mad:

Kistilan
10-12-2009, 01:37 AM
Ever actually played a Rogue? You do know you can get every trap with 08INT?

Yes.

Most of my rogues are 14-16 builds but my acrobat is a 12 Int. I tend to utilize my skill points and don't trade a few for extra strength or constitution. I also stop at level 10 or earlier & use a +2 Int Tome at 1750 favor.

I've quite a few rogues or blended rogues. Where you worry about getting every trap, I worry about: Assassinate (My Assassin/Kensai), as well as UMD, Balance, Tumble, Hide/Move Silently, Search, Bluff, Haggle, Search, Disable, Oplen Lock, etc. I enjoy heavy skill builds and tend to be useful in odd situations.

I don't disagree a cutter could have a low int, but he won't be a jack of all trades -- he'll master just one (or two -- maybe three).

bobbryan2
10-12-2009, 02:34 AM
I don't disagree a cutter could have a low int, but he won't be a jack of all trades -- he'll master just one (or two -- maybe three).

Or 7. Or 8.

woundweaver
10-12-2009, 01:37 PM
ok, got a question, seeing as i cant get the lammania server to install. i have a cleric that has 6 fighter levels. i wanna get rid of just these, and go pure cleric, because he is already specced pure offensive/healer. he just has a ton of hp's and ac. how would i go about this, and would i have to start at lvl 1 again? i really dont want to lose my 11 levels of cleric. i want to continue the line. i can handle losing the tomes invested in the build. even getting rid of 4 levels, and that worthless bastard sword feat would be ideal.