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Tolero
10-08-2009, 12:07 AM
As part of our new Reincarnation system, we're previewing the True Reincarnation on Lamannia!

A true reincarnation lets the player recreate a more powerful character and change anything about them (except for the name and gender), including their class and race. Tapping into memories of their former selves, true reincarnated characters will receive additional build points to spend in character generation as well as unique bonuses in the form of access to Past Life Feats. Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!). True reincarnation allows players to relive their journey through Stormreach. Characters will keep no experience or favor upon creation, will start at level 1, and require more experience to progress through each level. True reincarnation grants 2 bonus build points for every true reincarnation, and are always base 32 point, even if the character was initially created as a 28 point.

When you reincarnate, your character will become taller, you'll have a special status icon on your name, and you'll begin your "new life" in Stormreach with extra ability points! You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points. You will also be given access to a "past life" feat, where influences of your previous character class can aid you in your new life/profession.

A character must be level 20 to True Reincarnate, and must speak with Kruz the reincarnation trainer in House Jorasco. Kruz requires a True Heart of Wood to perform a reincarnation. True Hearts of Wood can be purchased in the DDO Store, or earned by collecting epic tokens in the new Epic difficulty dungeons.

NOTE: True Reincarnation will start your character in the Korthos experience. Your equipment is waiting for you in your bank. You may skip the Korthos experience by speaking with Jeets or the first mate on the dock in the village.

Not level 20 yet? We will be hosting special reincarnation activities during this preview, so stay tuned for more information! If you're already able to reincarnate, please let us know your feedback on the reincarnation system!

Dylos_Moon
10-08-2009, 12:57 PM
please tell me that a true reincarnated character keeps any tome bonuses and raid loot that they have.

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 01:00 PM
please tell me that a true reincarnated character keeps any tome bonuses and raid loot that they have.

I coudl see tomes being dropped but not raid loot

HeavenlyCloud
10-08-2009, 01:01 PM
please tell me that a true reincarnated character keeps any tome bonuses and raid loot that they have.

I can tell you as soon as Llama opens ;)

Tolero
10-08-2009, 01:02 PM
please tell me that a true reincarnated character keeps any tome bonuses and raid loot that they have.

True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

The_Ick
10-08-2009, 01:02 PM
please tell me that a true reincarnated character keeps any tome bonuses and raid loot that they have.

Tomes would be nice... Especially since they are raid loot.

doh, got ninjad by Tolero.....

JayDubya
10-08-2009, 01:02 PM
Wow. I wonder how much more experience each level will cost.

rimble
10-08-2009, 01:03 PM
What the hell...hahahaha...

rimble
10-08-2009, 01:04 PM
They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

Bad decision. Either have tomes applied at the new appropriate min levels, or stick some appropriate bound to character versions of them in their mail or something. Guess I'd have to see how useful these influences from past careers thing are, because that's one hell of an expensive loss for many of us.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:06 PM
How will True Reincarnate effect drow? Will they gain 2 points becoming 30 point builds, 4 becoming 32 point builds or 6 becoming 34 point builds?

edit: And if you want to claim that drow already are 32 point builds due to their racial +2's, does that mean that Warforged are currently 26 or 30 point builds?

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:08 PM
so if a capped 28, does this, they become 32 points AND gain 2 more points?


so someone could eventually have a 40 or 50 point character?

kaelis
10-08-2009, 01:08 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

So any tomes we have on our characters we would have to reacquire (say +3/+4's?) or would we gain them back automatically at the correct level (doubting it but one can hope)

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:09 PM
so if a capped 28, does this, they become 32 points AND gain 2 more points?


so someone could eventually have a 40 or 50 point character?

No, you're capped at 2 True Reincarnations.

"You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points. "

The_Ick
10-08-2009, 01:09 PM
so if a capped 28, does this, they become 32 points AND gain 2 more points?


so someone could eventually have a 40 or 50 point character?

Think they said you can only "true Res" twice.

Dylos_Moon
10-08-2009, 01:09 PM
so if a capped 28, does this, they become 32 points AND gain 2 more points?


so someone could eventually have a 40 or 50 point character?

as said right in the first post.

You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:12 PM
Also, either this forum isn't showing up in the dev tracker, or you're on hidden Tolero.

Memnir
10-08-2009, 01:14 PM
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http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/rockon2.gif
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Tarrant
10-08-2009, 01:14 PM
How will True Reincarnate effect drow? Will they gain 2 points becoming 30 point builds, 4 becoming 32 point builds or 6 becoming 34 point builds?

edit: And if you want to claim that drow already are 32 point builds due to their racial +2's, does that mean that Warforged are currently 26 or 30 point builds?

Looking into this for you.


so if a capped 28, does this, they become 32 points AND gain 2 more points?


so someone could eventually have a 40 or 50 point character?

Yes, capped 28 pointers became 32 and get 2 more points. And as was answered, you can currently only true resurrect twice.


So any tomes we have on our characters we would have to reacquire (say +3/+4's?) or would we gain them back automatically at the correct level (doubting it but one can hope)

You would have to reacquire those tomes.

The_Ick
10-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Man I have to tell you. This one is causing me to have an argument in my mind. Albeit it is a small battlefield, but the war is raging on. Should I do any toons? If yes, which ones?

That is a lot of time and tomes that I will be giving up for essentially a +1 to a stat and an extra feat. The size thing is a nice banner of accomplishment, but not really in the argument. All those tomes, all that work…

I am really on the fence on this one…

Dylos_Moon
10-08-2009, 01:19 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

Ok, but if I have my 1750 favor tome and have not yet used it when I reincarnate, or I have a bound to character tome that I looted from a raid chest but have not yet used, I get to keep those?

So then does that mean that I could get a character to 1750 favor 3 times for 3 +2 favor tomes, and not use any of them until they were a 36 point character if I wanted to?

Doesn't sound fair to me that you can keep unused bound to character tomes, but cannot keep used ones.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 01:20 PM
Why the requirement to be L20?

Sometimes the reason for the reroll is you got to L16, something about the game changed, and you realized a new direction was needed..

I suppose you want to stop people from double reincarnating L1s, but since you are going to attach cash to this I'm assuming that would be somewhat self limiting.

On the issue of the tomes, I agree your choice was a mistake. While I'm not the type to have a +3 on every stat, if someone grinded for that, let them keep it, even if all you do is put the highest value tome in their inventory, bound to char and with an apprioriate ML on it.

Thank you for starting at 0 XP, very good choice there. Letting people completley rebuild a L20 into a L20 would have been a mistake.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Ok, but if I have my 1750 favor tome and have not yet used it when I reincarnate, or I have a bound to character tome that I looted from a raid chest but have not yet used, I get to keep those?

So then does that mean that I could get a character to 1750 favor 3 times for 3 +2 favor tomes, and not use any of them until they were a 36 point character if I wanted to?

Doesn't sound fair to me that you can keep unused bound to character tomes, but cannot keep used ones.

And there lies the solution to the tome problem for players.

1. Farm for +4's, don't eat them
2. True reincarnate twice.
3. ????
4. profit.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:22 PM
Why the requirement to be L20?


So that you have to play through the full amped up xp curve before reincarnating for the second time.

Wakkander
10-08-2009, 01:22 PM
the fact my 28 point builds can be upgraded to 32 points (or rather, 34 then 36) makes this all win for me, tomes can be reaquired.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 01:23 PM
So that you have to play through the full amped up xp curve before reincarnating for the second time.

Did you read the next line of what I said?

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 01:24 PM
the fact my 28 point builds can be upgraded to 32 points (or rather, 34 then 36) makes this all win for me, tomes can be reaquired.

you can do that with greater if you like your class lvls the way they are

bandyman1
10-08-2009, 01:24 PM
I gotta say I love the implementations of all three.

It gives us the ability to adjust our characters due to changes in the game ( which is what those who argued pro-respec wanted ), and the costs of True Ress addresses the concerns many raised about going form 20th level barb to 20th level caster all in one fell swoop.

Two thumbs up Turbine Devs.

jakeelala
10-08-2009, 01:25 PM
Yeah sorry guys, start from scratch, +2 at creation (which depending on how it's applied is no better than a +1 tome) and harder to level? This is nuts. You gotta give people their tomes. How could possibly come to this decision? Are you mad at us?

Osharan_Tregarth
10-08-2009, 01:26 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

So... If we are planning on doing a true reincarnation, we should leave our raid loot tomes in the bank?

Am I getting this correctly?

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Why the requirement to be L20?

Sometimes the reason for the reroll is you got to L16, something about the game changed, and you realized a new direction was needed..

I suppose you want to stop people from double reincarnating L1s, but since you are going to attach cash to this I'm assuming that would be somewhat self limiting.

On the issue of the tomes, I agree your choice was a mistake. While I'm not the type to have a +3 on every stat, if someone grinded for that, let them keep it, even if all you do is put the highest value tome in their inventory, bound to char and with an apprioriate ML on it.

Thank you for starting at 0 XP, very good choice there. Letting people completley rebuild a L20 into a L20 would have been a mistake.

Bah, hadn't seen these yet:

Lesser Reincarnation

A character that undergoes Lesser Reincarnation retains their race, gender, alignment, and the class they selected at level one. They are permitted to re-spend their ability points, change their feat selection, re-allocate skill points, spells, etc., or are free to select a path. Unlike True Reincarnation, characters will retain all favor and experience, but reincarnate with the same number of build points of the current incarnation and must train the exact level progression of the old character.

Greater reincarnation

Greater reincarnation has the same benefits as Lesser Reincarnation, and additionally will upgrade a 28 point (non-drow) character into a 32 point build character.


Makes my quesitons...and my compliment, moot.

EinarMal
10-08-2009, 01:27 PM
To me this seems like a sneaky way to introduce a new grind. So, now you *need* 36 point builds to be optimal. So, you have to level to 20, re-incarnate, level to 20 again with a steeper xp curve, and then re-incarnate and level to 20 again.

yikes...

The builds posted will be hillarious though I can picture it now....

Dwarf Fighter level 20 (Double Re-incarnate)
Str 18
Con 20

etc.....haha

Turial
10-08-2009, 01:27 PM
... as well as unique bonuses in the form of access to Past Life Feats. Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!). ...

2 questions.

1) what does access to past life feats mean?

2) is becoming physically larger an actual change to your size category or simply an art thing? In otherwords does a medium human become a large human with one set and a huge human with the next?

Thanks.

TreknaQudane
10-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!).

If each size is larger, do halflings lose their small size bonuses?

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:28 PM
Did you read the next line of what I said?

This shouldn't be the solution to that problem. There really should be an intermediate "reroll to 1, bump to 32 points but keep your gear" option. I suspect the reason they don't offer an in situ class/alignment option(which would be the superior solution to the "you broke my character" issue) is because they can't get the tech to work.

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:28 PM
how exactly will it be harder to level?

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 01:28 PM
So... If we are planning on doing a true reincarnation, we should leave our raid loot tomes in the bank?

Am I getting this correctly?


yup.

Interesting choice eh? Level to 20 without using raid tomes (a tougher level) and then reincarnate for 2pts or use them right off and make levelling easier but lose them on reincarnate.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:33 PM
BTW, wasn't there a tech reason grow spells couldn't be implemented for pc's? Has that been resolved and can we look forward to their addition?

Daim
10-08-2009, 01:33 PM
Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!).

I'm not sure what to think about the reincarnation system yet but I absolutely hate that we have to become larger. Could we get this as an option? I like my Halfling short, thanks.

KoboldKiller
10-08-2009, 01:34 PM
So they took the "grind" to 32 pts out and created a way to "grind" to 36pt builds (true rez twice).

So since they decided to sell 32pt builds why don't they just sell 36pt builds?

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:35 PM
not sure i want my halflings getting taller and fatter. if i wanted that would have rolled a dwarf.

Gorby
10-08-2009, 01:35 PM
I'd have to know more about the 'past life feat' before I decide that reincarnation would benefit a character who has ground raids daily for months to acquire his tomes.

We're talking months and months and months of grinding the same raids for the few +3 tomes we've earned while we waited for the FTP to get sorted out. Vets get screwed again.

Vhlad
10-08-2009, 01:35 PM
As part of our new Reincarnation system, we're previewing the True Reincarnation on Lamannia!

A true reincarnation lets the player recreate a more powerful character and change anything about them (except for the name and gender), including their class and race. Tapping into memories of their former selves, true reincarnated characters will receive additional build points to spend in character generation as well as unique bonuses in the form of access to Past Life Feats. Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!). True reincarnation allows players to relive their journey through Stormreach. Characters will keep no experience or favor upon creation, will start at level 1, and require more experience to progress through each level. True reincarnation grants 2 bonus build points for every true reincarnation, and are always base 32 point, even if the character was initially created as a 28 point.

When you reincarnate, your character will become taller, you'll have a special status icon on your name, and you'll begin your "new life" in Stormreach with extra ability points! You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points. You will also be given access to a "past life" feat, where influences of your previous character class can aid you in your new life/profession.

A character must be level 20 to True Reincarnate, and must speak with Kruz the reincarnation trainer in House Jorasco. Kruz requires a True Heart of Wood to perform a reincarnation. True Hearts of Wood can be purchased in the DDO Store, or earned by collecting epic tokens in the new Epic difficulty dungeons.

Not level 20 yet? We will be hosting special reincarnation activities during this preview, so stay tuned for more information! If you're already able to reincarnate, please let us know your feedback on the reincarnation system!

If we true reincarnate a character we used to unlock drow, 32 point, favoured soul (i.e. a 2500+ favor character; say it's our only character), do we lose access to drow, 32 point, or favoured soul when his favor is erased?

What about the items in extra inventory pages or bank slots unlocked by favor. Do we lose those slots (and those items) when we true reincarnate?

rimble
10-08-2009, 01:36 PM
So since they decided to sell 32pt builds why don't they just sell 36pt builds?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!!

captfurious
10-08-2009, 01:37 PM
So they took the "grind" to 32 pts out and created a way to "grind" to 36pt builds (true rez twice).

So since they decided to sell 32pt builds why don't they just sell 36pt builds?

Answer: Power Creep & Grind - prevalent in most MMOs - coming to a Turbine Store(tm) near you.

Boo. Boo I say.

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:37 PM
If we true reincarnate a character we used to unlock drow, 32 point, favoured soul (i.e. a 2500+ favor character; say it's our only character), do we lose access to drow, 32 point, or favoured soul when his favor is erased?

What about the items in extra inventory pages or bank slots unlocked by favor. Do we lose those slots (and those items) when we true reincarnate?

NO. once you have unlocked favor, it is unlocked for that server.

the extra bank and bags you will lose, because THAT character hasn't earned that favor.

Hendrik
10-08-2009, 01:38 PM
Man I have to tell you. This one is causing me to have an argument in my mind. Albeit it is a small battlefield, but the war is raging on. Should I do any toons? If yes, which ones?

That is a lot of time and tomes that I will be giving up for essentially a +1 to a stat and an extra feat. The size thing is a nice banner of accomplishment, but not really in the argument. All those tomes, all that work…

I am really on the fence on this one…

I'm facing the same battle!!!!

Considering a True on my main - or at least one character. I like the idea of these feats - but have many questions still.

If I do any other Reincarnations, they would be Greater.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:38 PM
NO. once you have unlocked favor, it is unlocked for that server.

It does make you want to shed a tear for all of the people that farmed out the full 3085 favor though.

BattleCircle
10-08-2009, 01:38 PM
What about the past life feats? Does this mean class and or racial feats? or selected feats? IOW can I true res a ranger into a pally and get twf for free, or perhaps a barb into a fighter and also have rage without multiclassing?

HeavenlyCloud
10-08-2009, 01:39 PM
not sure i want my halflings getting taller and fatter. if i wanted that would have rolled a dwarf.

Wait till you see my Dwarf :D i'm going to be bigger than a Gelatinous Cube in-game.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:39 PM
NO. once you have unlocked favor, it is unlocked for that server.

the extra bank and bags you will lose, because THAT character hasn't earned that favor.

Right, but what happens to the items(which we are supposed to keep) that are present in those item/bank slots?

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 01:40 PM
What about the past life feats? Does this mean class and or racial feats? or selected feats? IOW can I true res a ranger into a pally and get twf for free, or perhaps a barb into a fighter and also have rage without multiclassing?

caster with evasion:D

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:40 PM
It does make you want to shed a tear for all of the people that farmed out the full 3085 favor though.

not really. because THEY 1, chose to grind to max favor; and 2, they chose to use the True reincarnation.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 01:40 PM
So they took the "grind" to 32 pts out and created a way to "grind" to 36pt builds (true rez twice).

So since they decided to sell 32pt builds why don't they just sell 36pt builds?

It's a different kind of grind. The old 32 pt grind made you create a permanently less powerful char. This one in essence buffs the one you are now playing. I argued strongly to eliminate the 32pt grind, this one I can see standing...not that I intend to ever grind for 36 lool

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:40 PM
Right, but what happens to the items(which we are supposed to keep) that are present in those item/bank slots?

recommend not keeping them in the EXTRA slots as they WILL be gone.

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:42 PM
Wait till you see my Dwarf :D i'm going to be bigger than a Gelatinous Cube in-game.

blah my friend, i thought you were already larger than the Cube. we can't be worshipping a shrimp of a god on argo after all.

Tarrant
10-08-2009, 01:42 PM
You know you guys don't have to True Reincarnate, right? This option is most likely something for the more hardcore among you. Built up your character, ran all the raids, but still want to be bigger and badder? Now you've got it!

And on a personal note, I can't wait to see my first double-true reincarnated perma-death character.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:42 PM
recommend not keeping them in the EXTRA slots as they WILL be gone.

That's the answer I expect(or you'll be overflowed from the backpack items and lose the bank ones) but I'd like it to hear it from a Turbine person so I know they're thinking about these sorts of things.

Samadhi
10-08-2009, 01:42 PM
I do NOT want my characters to become taller. Please make this optional. Thank you.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 01:43 PM
recommend not keeping them in the EXTRA slots as they WILL be gone.

You know this as a fact? It's not like going from VIP to F2P where the account bank tab just becomes read only so you can remove but not put things in?

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 01:43 PM
I do NOT want my characters to become taller. Please make this optional. Thank you.

Ya, with you on that. Don't like the name token either. It's so 14 year old geeky "DUDE, LOOK HOW UBER I AM, I GOTS 2 XTRA PTS"

HeavenlyCloud
10-08-2009, 01:44 PM
blah my friend, i thought you were already larger than the Cube. we can't be worshipping a shrimp of a god on argo after all.

:) This leads me to believe that you worship The Mad God? Interesting...

EinarMal
10-08-2009, 01:44 PM
You know you guys don't have to True Reincarnate, right? This option is most likely something for the more hardcore among you. Built up your character, ran all the raids, but still want to be bigger and badder? Now you've got it!

And on a personal note, I can't wait to see my first double-true reincarnated perma-death character.

Inevitably it will become an issue among some, not allowing tiny weak non-double reincarnates into their groups.....poor little non-reincarnate discrimination.

rimble
10-08-2009, 01:44 PM
Ya, with you on that. Don't like the name token either. It's so 14 year old geeky "DUDE, LOOK HOW UBER I AM, I GOTS 2 XTRA PTS"

Yup, as a relatively modest guy, I'd like to be able to toggle off any indications of my uberness. Seriously, that's not sarcasm. And I like my Halflings small.

Vhlad
10-08-2009, 01:46 PM
the extra bank and bags you will lose, because THAT character hasn't earned that favor.

Perhaps, but what does the game do with items stored in those inventory pages or bank pages at the time of reincarnation. I'm not going to assume Turbine has a safety feature or check. Afterall, they didn't consider what could happen to items after creating a spell that alters their durability (mordenkainens disjunction).

So I'll raise the bank/inventory space question specifically, and wait to see what actually happens in testing.

Heck: maybe those slots will become greyed out but everything in them will still count toward encumberance, crippling the character at level 1. I do not have faith!

Aerendil
10-08-2009, 01:47 PM
To me this seems like a sneaky way to introduce a new grind. So, now you *need* 36 point builds to be optimal. So, you have to level to 20, re-incarnate, level to 20 again with a steeper xp curve, and then re-incarnate and level to 20 again.

Nothing sneaky about this at all. It's now a way of appealing to the powerlevellers / hardcore gamers who have the spare time to level a char to 20, reincarnate, level to 20 again, reincarnate, and level to 20 again just so they have an uber character.

Not very appealing to me at all.

My complaints:
1 - only with TRUE reincarnation can you fully change all of your levels. The other two force you to start at level 1 as whatever class you were previously at level 1. This FORCES the splash builds such as Rog2/Wiz18 or Rog1/Mnk1/Rng18 who started lives as Rogues to have to go with true reincarnation if they decide they wanted to go pure. Really, really unfair.

2 - True Reincarnation now makes 36 point builds (+ past lives feats/bonuses, whatever those are) the new "cool kid" setup. This will further isolate the casual gamers from the hardcore gamers.

3 - If the ability to re-allocate skill points and build points is ingame now, would it not simply be easier to use Fred for this? Why force people to use Lesser Reincarnation (and Greater for that matter) just to respec feats, skills, etc.?

4 - characters should really be allowed to keep their tomes. Perhaps the "bound" ones, at least, if they get to keep all of their other bound equipment. That's just a further grind on top of re-levelling (possibly twice for True) that will seriously turn gamers off.

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:47 PM
:) This leads me to believe that you worship The Mad God? Interesting...

we have a choice?

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:49 PM
You know this as a fact? It's not like going from VIP to F2P where the account bank tab just becomes read only so you can remove but not put things in?

who knows how they implement it. based on track record, items go bye bye.

kafrielveddicus
10-08-2009, 01:50 PM
You know you guys don't have to True Reincarnate, right? This option is most likely something for the more hardcore among you. Built up your character, ran all the raids, but still want to be bigger and badder? Now you've got it!

And on a personal note, I can't wait to see my first double-true reincarnated perma-death character.

The Narc smiles feverishly!!!!!

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:50 PM
Inevitably it will become an issue among some, not allowing tiny weak non-double reincarnates into their groups.....poor little non-reincarnate discrimination.

false.

TheJusticar
10-08-2009, 01:51 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

For any non-power gamer who can't afford to go back to level 1, this is utterly useless. +2 ability points is a moot point with regards to the effort and time it takes to level a toon (again from the non-power gamer perspective).

Godspeed.

Gratch
10-08-2009, 01:51 PM
Is there any way to tell the difference between a double TR'er vs. a single? Are they even taller or have a more snobbish title?

rimble
10-08-2009, 01:52 PM
For any non-power gamer who can't afford to go back to level 1, this is utterly useless. +2 ability points is a moot point with regards to the effort and time it takes to level a toon (again from the non-power gamer perspective).

Godspeed.

Well, True Reincarnate and Epic quests appear to be their 'end game' content...basically doing over again everything you already did. Not sure how that will work out for them.

Gleipner
10-08-2009, 01:52 PM
So as we can keep all our raid-gear, you can just run raids untill launch, save the +2-3-4 tomes you get (if any) and just use them once true ressed.

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 01:52 PM
Is there any way to tell the difference between a double TR'er vs. a single? Are they even taller or have a more snobbish title?

"Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!)."

Reading the tea leaves, it seems they will likely be larger.

Gratch
10-08-2009, 01:55 PM
"Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!)."

Reading the tea leaves, it seems they will likely be larger.

Cool... we can have bugs like... My double TR warforged can't fit through this doorway anymore... or gets tagged more easily by AoE spells.

The_Ick
10-08-2009, 01:56 PM
You know you guys don't have to True Reincarnate, right? This option is most likely something for the more hardcore among you. Built up your character, ran all the raids, but still want to be bigger and badder? Now you've got it!

And on a personal note, I can't wait to see my first double-true reincarnated perma-death character.

1st point... I really like the increases size thing, kind of cool IMO.

2nd the more i think of this the more the "raid tomes" thing gets to me. I can see the logic on the +1s and +2 (non raid loot) tomes, but those +3 raid tomes represent A LOT of work for your VET players. You are talking about 20, 40, 60 runs in a raid to get to them. The same logic that applies to raid loot should go for tomes that were aquired as raid loot.

I think the "ReIncarnation" idea is pretty well balanced other then that. A straight respec could but twisted too easily. I think this is a really viable options, but the raid tomes need to be worked in there somehow. Especially since this feature is for the hardcore gamers and we are the ones that have grinded for them.

The_Ick
10-08-2009, 01:57 PM
"Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!)."

Reading the tea leaves, it seems they will likely be larger.

You are a funny many charlie brown.... :D :D :D

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 01:59 PM
Is there any way to tell the difference between a double TR'er vs. a single? Are they even taller or have a more snobbish title?

they will be slightly taller than the single.

Bogenbroom
10-08-2009, 01:59 PM
Quote: Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
Inevitably it will become an issue among some, not allowing tiny weak non-double reincarnates into their groups.....poor little non-reincarnate discrimination.

false.


How so? Heck, I already see runs up that demand dual Min IIs.

Mav145
10-08-2009, 02:00 PM
I think that at most I will just convert my one 28-pt. build into a 32-pt. build and then have one toon that I turn into a 36-pt. build just for fun. I do not plan on powerleveling this thing just to be uber.

The epic quests and the epic crafting sound interesting though.

Delt
10-08-2009, 02:02 PM
It looks like the only real respec option comes in the form of the True Res. It's a real shame the tomes disappear - there is nothing particularly "fun" about tossing a full set of +3's down the toilet (and given the length of time between PrE changes/mod 9, a lot of toons have full tome sets eaten - even casual players).

I'll probably do it on a few toons anyway, but my excitement level dropped considerably in comparison to when I first read about the respec. Grinding isn't bad if the grind is fun -- not finding a way to refund tomes hits the fun factor considerably. That's counter-productive to the experience Turbine should want the players to have.

/shrug

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 02:03 PM
How so? Heck, I already see runs up that demand dual Min IIs.

you definitely play on a different server than I do, as I have not seen any discrimiating qualifiers in LFMs except for "be self sufficient" and "know what you're doing". hell i've see LFMs stating F2P welcome on argonnessen.

Talish
10-08-2009, 02:03 PM
I understand why the tomes don't carry over otherwise you could each use 3 sets of tomes one for each reincarnation.

Can you image characters who have had +3 or +4 tomes times 3??

True Rein sounds like you start over so I doubt there is a way to keep track of whether you ate tomes or not. Perhaps it could be a future consideration once they work things out.

EDIT: Perhaps have tomes that you have consumed reappear in your inventory??

rimble
10-08-2009, 02:06 PM
True Rein sounds like you start over so I doubt there is a way to keep track of whether you ate tomes or not. Perhaps it could be a future consideration once they work things out.

They could just mail 'em to you. If you ate a +4 Str tome before True Reincarnate, then after you reincarnate they mail you the derivates: +1 Str ML 3, +2 Str ML 7, +3 STR ML 11, +4 STR ML 15...Bound to Character of course. Tuck 'em all away and eat them as you level. (Yes, that's potentially alot of inventory slots for some folks, but such is life--as an experienced Reincarnated character you'll be up to level 7 and have eaten half of them in no time)

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2009, 02:06 PM
Cool... we can have bugs like... My double TR warforged can't fit through this doorway anymore... or gets tagged more easily by AoE spells.

I can't wait to see a double TR WF in coal...maybe its just me, but i already find them hard to navigate in there :p

Monkey_Archer
10-08-2009, 02:07 PM
2nd the more i think of this the more the "raid tomes" thing gets to me. I can see the logic on the +1s and +2 (non raid loot) tomes, but those +3 raid tomes represent A LOT of work for your VET players. You are talking about 20, 40, 60 runs in a raid to get to them. The same logic that applies to raid loot should go for tomes that were aquired as raid loot.

As I see it, true respec is aimed at powergamers rolling new toons...
Rolling a toon and leveling to 20 can be done in a week or so... each respec might take twice that long.. Im guessing you could cap a double respec toon in a month.

I mean, if you've already ate multiple +3 tomes, there is no way that 2 or 4 extra build points will make up for that. If this is supposed to be aimed at the hardcore among us, they really mean HARDCORE... :D

valorik
10-08-2009, 02:07 PM
I assume quest completions are erased as well, so you can't leave your charcter at 19 towers 59 shrouds etc, in order to be able to redo quests you did leveling up/getting favor.

Emili
10-08-2009, 02:10 PM
I understand why the tomes don't carry over otherwise you could each use 3 sets of tomes one for each reincarnation.

Can you image characters who have had +3 or +4 tomes times 3??

True Rein sounds like you start over so I doubt there is a way to keep track of whether you ate tomes or not. Perhaps it could be a future consideration once they work things out.
Well, because a tome is an inherent bonus on the character sheet... they do know it was placed on the character, although my understanding is they know not when. Needless to say at point of Trure Reincarnate would be quite possible to drop said tome into inventory - reverse use of it - then the player may use such again come appropriate time. Thus none stacking in any way.

Fact is I remember a bug back in beta where tomes were stacking for some period... the fix? Inherent bonis is definable and may be manipulated.

Ephemeral
10-08-2009, 02:11 PM
Wow, this exceeds my expectations for respec / 32pt build buys etc.

This is a great idea, and I look forward to it going live soon :)

It would be good to know exactly how the past life feats will work. I think some people in this thread have already asked about stuff like evasion. I think that would be a design mistake as it could seriously overpower some characters, but I'm more than happy to see the full set up before making any judgements on this.

Nice work Turbine!

Edit: I actually like the idea that tomes are not 'refunded' as part of a true reincarnation. We're talking here about potentially having 36pt builds, and if they kept the old tomes used somehow active, thats a huge increase in stats as you level up.

However, I suspect we're about to see +2 tomes being sold in the store on the back of this change...

Zenako
10-08-2009, 02:12 PM
So if you are a veteran (Bought Store status) does your True Reincarnate start you at level 4 now? Instead of level 1?

As for tomes, one viable answer would be Bound to Character one tome each = to Inherent Bonus on that character, with the new Min Level attachments/requirements. No need for a whole stack of 3 or so tomes for every stat...yikes..

rimble
10-08-2009, 02:13 PM
As for tomes, one viable answer would be Bound to Character one tome each = to Inherent Bonus on that character, with the new Min Level attachments/requirements. No need for a whole stack of 3 or so tomes for every stat...yikes..

But it matters. They don't know if you ate a +1, +2, +3, +4 as you levelled. Maybe you need that +3 at level 11 to take a feat at level 12. This would be particularly exacerbated with Int tomes.

It would be a start, though, to at least just give back the highest +tome you ate with the new ML. You'd be responsible for any lesser ones.

Bartikus
10-08-2009, 02:17 PM
Man I have to tell you. This one is causing me to have an argument in my mind. Albeit it is a small battlefield, but the war is raging on. Should I do any toons? If yes, which ones?

That is a lot of time and tomes that I will be giving up for essentially a +1 to a stat and an extra feat. The size thing is a nice banner of accomplishment, but not really in the argument. All those tomes, all that work…

I am really on the fence on this one…

This is a no brainer for 28 point builds that never "quite" got there.
I like it - in theory -.

Lerincho
10-08-2009, 02:17 PM
So if you are a veteran (Bought Store status) does your True Reincarnate start you at level 4 now? Instead of level 1?

As for tomes, one viable answer would be Bound to Character one tome each = to Inherent Bonus on that character, with the new Min Level attachments/requirements. No need for a whole stack of 3 or so tomes for every stat...yikes..

no. as has been stated before. even with veteran your true reincarnation becomes level 1, 0 xp.

uhgungawa
10-08-2009, 02:18 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

OK, there are alot of posts here fast. My question is if we keep our stuff, but loose our favor (this means backpack space, and bank space) what happens to our gear in those slots?

SimVerg
10-08-2009, 02:21 PM
OK, there are alot of posts here fast. My question is if we keep our stuff, but loose our favor (this means backpack space, and bank space) what happens to our gear in those slots?

Asked, not answered yet.

Zenako
10-08-2009, 02:23 PM
OK, there are alot of posts here fast. My question is if we keep our stuff, but loose our favor (this means backpack space, and bank space) what happens to our gear in those slots?

Or stacks of House D arrows for example...or Pendants of Time...or quivers...etc

uhgungawa
10-08-2009, 02:23 PM
Asked, not answered yet.

WELL ANSWER MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE :eek:

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Asked, not answered yet.

overflow probably

KoboldKiller
10-08-2009, 02:25 PM
Wow, this exceeds my expectations for respec / 32pt build buys etc.

This is a great idea, and I look forward to it going live soon :)

It would be good to know exactly how the past life feats will work. I think some people in this thread have already asked about stuff like evasion. I think that would be a design mistake as it could seriously overpower some characters, but I'm more than happy to see the full set up before making any judgements on this.

Nice work Turbine!

Edit: I actually like the idea that tomes are not 'refunded' as part of a true reincarnation. We're talking here about potentially having 36pt builds, and if they kept the old tomes used somehow active, thats a huge increase in stats as you level up.

However, I suspect we're about to see +2 tomes being sold in the store on the back of this change...

Of course and then come the +3 then the +4 then the raid loot etc.........

HeavenlyCloud
10-08-2009, 02:25 PM
My guess would be Limbo :D.

QuantumFX
10-08-2009, 02:27 PM
Tolero or Tarrant - can you give us specifics on the Past Life feats? I mean are they things that you have to unlock or do they give additional bonuses or something?

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 02:28 PM
I assume quest completions are erased as well, so you can't leave your charcter at 19 towers 59 shrouds etc, in order to be able to redo quests you did leveling up/getting favor.

no your best bet is to do you60th shroud and pick as tome but not use it, that way you can use it on the reroll.

This is the only thing I see as being a bit of a pain as I can see people who already have +3 tomes keeping a second in case they decide to reroll
The smart thing to do woudl be to never put up a tome for roll even if you don't need or use it just in case you decide to true rez

HeavenlyCloud
10-08-2009, 02:29 PM
no your best bet is to do you60th shroud and pick as tome but not use it, that way you can use it on the reroll.

This is the only thing I see as being a bit of a pain as I can see people who already have +3 tomes keeping a second in case they decide to reroll
The smart thing to do woudl be to never put up a tome for roll even if you don't need or use it just in case you decide to true rez

Indeed i mentioned this in-game to some friends. The Age of greed in DDO has truly begun.

valkir
10-08-2009, 02:30 PM
Hello, First post! I'm wondering about a few things and am curious if anyone knows the answer :) ..


So will the extra bag/bank space be gone or does everyone think that we may be able to keep em to prevent bugs? (even if that means going back to 150 favor with house k and coin lords won't do anything)

Will the size + and title be optional?

Will epic raid balancing now involve thinking about 36 point min/maxers and fine tuning bosses to them? :/

Are 1 time true reincarnated drow 34 points or 30?

This "past lives" bonus...does it involve what class/race you were? I hope not since then for double true reincarnated min/maxers may go with different races/classes each time while those who reincarnated to just change a class level or two but not race/ most of their classes won't gain as much.

Also will getting to 1750 favor 3 times lead to 3 +2 tomes?


Finally, let's say I get 3000 favor then reincarnate. I unlocked everything and the reincarnated but then theres some new favor reward for 2000+ , will I get it if my new reincarnation is below that amount?

To make it seem more important...if someone delete their characters with 1000+ favor right now, will they still be eligable to be a veteran?

Ephemeral
10-08-2009, 02:30 PM
Of course and then come the +3 then the +4 then the raid loot etc.........

I sincerely hope not, I guess only time will tell.

I'm really most curious about the past life feats, they could potentially open up a whole new set of builds.

Emili
10-08-2009, 02:35 PM
OK, there are alot of posts here fast. My question is if we keep our stuff, but loose our favor (this means backpack space, and bank space) what happens to our gear in those slots?
I only speculate you loose that space ... meaning one must thin down some sending unbound gear to other characters temporarily.

Be a the biggest delemna for me is ... do I scrap tomes and grind near capped favor on an already perfectly good character for another 4 points and extra feats? Obviously my three +3 tomes and three +2 tomes on my main I'd worked hard for... grinding favor up is a pain I do it on every toon, most people chase raid loot yet I chase favor and raid loot ... which both are at odds with one another, thus is more time-sink involved to harness both.

Another, Problem be this becomes norm and commonplace among the power-gamers and sets a stage for segregation among groups, which is visible... I can see LFM's in the future - "This is an EPIC Level run, Amazon required, short people need not apply." +3 and +4 tomes now become something people will not share with others when popped (they'll save it for a True Reincarnate)... Heck I took a lot of flack last week because I gave a +3 wisdom tome to a cleric in VoD and did not offer it to a FvS, Had I saw this comming I would have banked it. The more I look at this the more I see the community separated...

Osharan_Tregarth
10-08-2009, 02:35 PM
not that I intend to ever grind for 36 lool

I'm in! :D

Jonny_D
10-08-2009, 02:40 PM
I Understand that favor would have to be re-run (makes sense to me) but what about pack slots and Banks slots. If we get to keep our gear where do we keep it? Also if say I receive an end reward for 20 completions of a raid, and I dont consume the tome, Will I be able keep the tome? And use it on my reincarnated characters?

Visty
10-08-2009, 02:42 PM
ahhh, wrong thread

KaKa
10-08-2009, 02:42 PM
Maybe the new epic quests in the desert will have unbound +3 tomes. I think if I can find unbound +3's the loss of my raid bound tomes gotten in the past would seem like less of a loss, kinda how I feel about my old bound +2 tomes I have eaten.

Also one question. I know favor and such resets, but does your /quest completions for raids also reset? I guess I'll test this when the Llama gets up.

kruggar
10-08-2009, 02:44 PM
one question.

cai i get my deleted capped chars back?!

hehehe i think not but ask doenst hurt right?

Gol
10-08-2009, 02:44 PM
You know you guys don't have to True Reincarnate, right? This option is most likely something for the more hardcore among you. Built up your character, ran all the raids, but still want to be bigger and badder? Now you've got it!I don't want to be bigger and badder. I want to fix a single class selection I made during MODULE 3 when the level cap was 12 and we only have 4 enhancements period, nevermind Prestige Enhancements.

Check the sig.

A 15/2/1 Ranger. What I wouldn't give to drop the "/1".
A 14/2/1 Bard. Again, the "/1".
A 15/1/1 Cleric. Not as bad, but I really want to drop one of the "/1"s.

And your solution is "Shut the **** up and reroll" if I want to fix it? That's not respec. That's forcing me into a grind if I want to respec.

aurus33
10-08-2009, 02:51 PM
I don't agree that tomes are being wiped out of the character!!

I do understand that having tomes at low levels make the toons "shine" a little bit more than others that didn't have it, but that's a difference, its a real effort from people grinding to get their +3/+4 tomes.

And I think its easy to fix the tomes issue, if you have eaten a +4 tome, just email/add to inventory a +1, +2, +3, +4 of that version of the tome.

If they know exactly that the person jumped from +1 to +4 (in the case of a character log), well, they can just provide a +1 and a +4 with their respective ML's and BtC.

And just by seeing what you can see at my.ddo.com, I think devs can know that level of detail.

I do agree that size thingie is made optional.
Specially IF affects characteristics like halfling size (+1 to attack, +1 to AC)

Do I keep the bonuses?
Do I lose the penalty to Intimidate due size?


How the special feat a True reincarnated works?

Do we get to choose the feat for my "new life"?
if I get a toon up to two-True Reincarnations, do I get one feat from my first reincarnation and a another for the 2nd?

Emili
10-08-2009, 02:52 PM
Maybe the new epic quests in the desert will have unbound +3 tomes. I think if I can find unbound +3's the loss of my raid bound tomes gotten in the past would seem like less of a loss, kinda how I feel about my old bound +2 tomes I have eaten.

Also one question. I know favor and such resets, but does your /quest completions for raids also reset? I guess I'll test this when the Llama gets up.
Reminds me... I am going to take the +2's I have on the AH off the market. Also I wonder what some of you would trade me for the two pre-mod 9 non-min level +2 int tomes I've in the bank now. ;)

The_Phenx
10-08-2009, 02:54 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

Tolero... if my 32 point build halfling now gets two additional points... is he still capped to starting with a 16 max str?

or will some of those limits be removed?

The_Phenx
10-08-2009, 02:55 PM
Reminds me... I am going to take the +2's I have on the AH off the market. Also I wonder what some of you would trade me for the two pre-mod 9 non-min level +2 int tomes I've in the bank now. ;)



I think they just got a WHOLE lot more valuable.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 03:01 PM
A true reincarnation lets the player recreate a more powerful character and change anything about them
True Reincarnate bundles too many different things together:
* Class change
* Race
* Alignment change
* 34 & 36 point builds
* Bonus feats
* Size increase
* Name icons

A person who wants some of those things (like dropping 1 level of wizard from a WF fighter) does not necessarily want to pay the cost it would take for all of them. The cost is large: a rare item, millions of XP, thousands of favor, and probably tomes.

There should be a way to get some of that, without necessarily the rest of it. In particular, class change isn't giving you anything you couldn't have already had, if you'd just clicked a different choice. It's not the same as these new character bonuses that can't be acquired any other way, and shouldn't be treated like them.

EDIT: In addition, although it is important to restrict the +2 build points from being used over and over, things like class changes should not be limited that way. If a person wants to go from 18/2/0, 17/3/0, and 16/2/2 builds of Sorc/Pal/Monk, let him do it if he's willing to re-level to 20. Don't arbitrary put a stop to it for reasons that shouldn't be connected.

The_Phenx
10-08-2009, 03:04 PM
I have a suggestion I would like to level.

I would leave the lesser alone.

I would make greater a full respec with the ability to change classes/races upgrade 28-32 points ...the full 9 yards.

I would make the true res everything that a greater is + the 2 extra stat points and an optional size bonus, and feats, name icon, but you have to start from scratch and rebuild entirely.

That way you can respec a bad choice you made without having to completely re-do 20 levels of your character.

I think the loss of tomes you have eaten is a big negative... otherwise I wanna say its about time this is added... GREAT!

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 03:04 PM
True Reincarnate bundles too many different things together:
* Class change
* 34 & 36 point builds
* Bonus feats
* Size increase
* Name icons

A person who wants some of those things (like dropping 1 level of wizard from a WF fighter) does not necessarily want to pay the cost it would take for all of them. The cost is large: a rare item, millions of XP, thousands of favor, and probably tomes.

There should be a way to get some of that, without necessarily the rest of it. In particular, class change isn't giving you anything you couldn't have already had, if you'd just clicked a different choice. It's not the same as these new character bonuses that can't be acquired any other way, and shouldn't be treated like them.

its really where greater should have come in, and where it simply failed, the gap is just too large

Emili
10-08-2009, 03:06 PM
True Reincarnate bundles too many different things together:
* Class change
* 34 & 36 point builds
* Bonus feats
* Size increase
* Name icons

A person who wants some of those things (like dropping 1 level of wizard from a WF fighter) does not necessarily want to pay the cost it would take for all of them. The cost is large: a rare item, millions of XP, thousands of favor, and probably tomes.

There should be a way to get some of that, without necessarily the rest of it. In particular, class change isn't giving you anything you couldn't have already had, if you'd just clicked a different choice. It's not the same as these new character bonuses that can't be acquired any other way, and shouldn't be treated like them.
I concur, I would think they should add such class/alignment ... minor change in greater vs true.

Quanefel
10-08-2009, 03:07 PM
I Understand that favor would have to be re-run (makes sense to me) but what about pack slots and Banks slots. If we get to keep our gear where do we keep it? Also if say I receive an end reward for 20 completions of a raid, and I dont consume the tome, Will I be able keep the tome? And use it on my reincarnated characters?

Well, I think we are now able to buy extra bank slots so.....we can keep every single peice of raid gear or tome from here on out. Why let others roll for it when we might want to use it after a respec?

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 03:08 PM
I Understand that favor would have to be re-run (makes sense to me) but what about pack slots and Banks slots. If we get to keep our gear where do we keep it? Also if say I receive an end reward for 20 completions of a raid, and I dont consume the tome, Will I be able keep the tome? And use it on my reincarnated characters?

tomes are tomes like any other piece of inventory so I imagine yes, I imagine items in the old slots will go in to some sort of overflow just like things do now.

The loss of tomes is really going to create another problem, you will rarel if ever see another +3/4 tome up for roll again, because there is no incentive to do so anymore

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 03:10 PM
Well, I think we are now able to buy extra bank slots so.....we can keep every single peice of raid gear or tome from here on out. Why let others roll for it when we might want to use it after a respec?

We get it, you're upset you lost. But do we need to start posting what you think will happen in every thread?

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 03:12 PM
tomes are tomes like any other piece of inventory so I imagine yes, I imagine items in the old slots will go in to some sort of overflow just like things do now.

The loss of tomes is really going to create another problem, you will rarel if ever see another +3/4 tome up for roll again, because there is no incentive to do so anymore

That's just. not. true.

Only 2 reincarnations, remember? After the 2nd, people won't need the tomes anymore. If just gives players an incentive to bank up an extra +3, and then put them up for roll after that.

That is not a bad thing. Players getting use out of things that come in the chest for them is a good thing.

gfunk
10-08-2009, 03:12 PM
I have important questions regarding the size changes.

I have a warforged fighter, who is quite tall already and is utterly terrifying. He can often be found in the harbor with hoards of newbies fleeing from him. Here is a pic:

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/ScreenShot00000.jpg

now, my questions are, when he is reborn as a 36 point build:

1) are 28 point halflings going to be so small relatively that he can wear several of their heads on a necklace?
2) will he be able to fit through the door in the lobster? or will he have to crash through the wall?
3) how many party members will I be able to carry in my backpack
4) will my heavy picks be too small to use? should I be looking for falchions or greatswords for each hand?

Thanks for your attention to this matter

~cratonic

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 03:12 PM
Interesting changes.

I would like to make one comment. I understand everyone's desire to have theri precious tomes carried over. I would to. However, there really is a simple reason why this is not possible. True reincarnation is very different from true ressurection. In true rez you physical body is brought back to life and your spirit is reconnected with it.

In true reincarnation your physical body has been destroyed and your spirit is attached to a new body or form. That is why you get some past life feats as your spirit can not remember all of whay you had in your past life since it is not an organic brain. As to the tomes.. they were physical objects that enhanced your physical body. They were destroyed when they were consumed. The physical enhancements to your body were also destroyed when your body was destroyed. Thus there is no way to carry over tomes.

Long wnded I know and not popular I know but still true all the same.

GhostNull
10-08-2009, 03:15 PM
So we essentially have respecs now, let's look at Name and Surname changes. It's already stated you can't change your name even with True Reincarnation. I know it's a premium service currently, but with the DDO Store and Reincarnation being implemented, perhaps this would be a good time to introduce Rename tokens?

Rename tokens should allow for a name change along with the addition/change of surnames, something that can't be done as of yet. This could further help players make their character the way the want.

spifflove
10-08-2009, 03:16 PM
of detail.

I do agree that size thingie is made optional.
Specially IF affects characteristics like halfling size (+1 to attack, +1 to AC)

Do I keep the bonuses?
Do I lose the penalty to Intimidate due size?


How the special feat a True reincarnated works?

Do we get to choose the feat for my "new life"?
if I get a toon up to two-True Reincarnations, do I get one feat from my first reincarnation and a another for the 2nd?

I think a very large large population of players have these same questions. While I would like a larger amazon all the rest of my toons id rather be the same size or even smaller.

sirdanile
10-08-2009, 03:25 PM
Can we combine the veterans bonus to start at level 4 with true respecing or do we start at level 1? (Or is it bugged to where you start at level 3 due to the xp difference in leveling :O!)

Tolero
10-08-2009, 03:26 PM
*still reading questions*

Re: Size

- When you get bigger, it's just a visual thing. It won't cause you to whack your head on the ceiling or get stuck between things because you got bigger ;)
- Saw someone mention the question of "grow" spell. This is a little different from the stand point that you actually are "created" bigger, it doesn't happen up and down on the fly during game play.

Re: Unused Tomes

Unused tomes you get to keep. It's part of your equipment.

Re: Used Tomes

Your character is an all new character. We burn the mortal shell of your former body into ash (no seriously, we do).

Ephemeral
10-08-2009, 03:28 PM
*still reading questions*

Re: Size

- When you get bigger, it's just a visual thing. It won't cause you to whack your head on the ceiling or get stuck between things because you got bigger ;)
- Saw someone mention the question of "grow" spell. This is a little different from the stand point that you actually are "created" bigger, it doesn't happen up and down on the fly during game play.

Re: Unused Tomes

Unused tomes you get to keep. It's part of your equipment.

Re: Used Tomes

Your character is an all new character. We burn the mortal shell of your former body into ash (no seriously, we do).

Any possibility of getting clarification on the past life feats?

QuantumFX
10-08-2009, 03:29 PM
I don't want to be bigger and badder. I want to fix a single class selection I made during MODULE 3 when the level cap was 12 and we only have 4 enhancements period, nevermind Prestige Enhancements.

Check the sig.

A 15/2/1 Ranger. What I wouldn't give to drop the "/1".
A 14/2/1 Bard. Again, the "/1".
A 15/1/1 Cleric. Not as bad, but I really want to drop one of the "/1"s.

And your solution is "Shut the **** up and reroll" if I want to fix it? That's not respec. That's forcing me into a grind if I want to respec.

I take it you haven't read about the Lesser Reincarnation?

Bosco
10-08-2009, 03:29 PM
The most grind crazy ultimate end reward for the hardcore player. Now I have to eat my own words for saying I would never reroll my only 28 point character on Argo. I'm giving you guys a big thumbs up Turbine.

Quanefel
10-08-2009, 03:30 PM
We get it, you're upset you lost. But do we need to start posting what you think will happen in every thread?

Upset I lost? No, I am happy now that you can go fix your broke characters. With this new respec, you even get a few chances at getting it right.

spifflove
10-08-2009, 03:31 PM
*still reading questions*

Re: Size

- When you get bigger, it's just a visual thing. It won't cause you to whack your head on the ceiling or get stuck between things because you got bigger ;)
- Saw someone mention the question of "grow" spell. This is a little different from the stand point that you actually are "created" bigger, it doesn't happen up and down on the fly during game play.

Re: Unused Tomes

Unused tomes you get to keep. It's part of your equipment.

Re: Used Tomes

Your character is an all new character. We burn the mortal shell of your former body into ash (no seriously, we do).

While that answers my questions the real thing is us halfling players LIKE the halflings small. A human sized halfling just isn't fun and will run like a gorilla. Please please please make a visual size option checkoff available in the options screen.

Also, how much dinero will I be set back?

Visty
10-08-2009, 03:32 PM
I take it you haven't read about the Lesser Reincarnation?

where he cant do what he wants, cause you stick with the exact same classsplit

ArkoHighStar
10-08-2009, 03:34 PM
I take it you haven't read about the Lesser Reincarnation?

lesser simply allows you to redistribute stats you must keep your levels the same, greater is the same except you can make a 28pt build a 32 pt build. Lesser and true are fine greater simply lacks

The_Phenx
10-08-2009, 03:34 PM
While that answers my questions the real thing is us halfling players LIKE the halflings small. A human sized halfling just isn't fun and will run like a gorilla. Please please please make a visual size option checkoff available in the options screen.

Also, how much dinero will I be set back?

/signed

I have however wanted an enlage spell clickie FOREVER... so If i wanted I could be one enormous HUGE halfling of doom... or something like that.

The_Phenx
10-08-2009, 03:36 PM
lesser simply allows you to redistribute stats you must keep your levels the same, greater is the same except you can make a 28pt build a 32 pt build. Lesser and true are fine greater simply lacks

Greater should have level re-spec...the benefit of true should be the +2 to points and new life feats etc.

I am curious how stat point allocation will work with greater... lamma mia here I come

Zenako
10-08-2009, 03:37 PM
lesser simply allows you to redistribute stats you must keep your levels the same, greater is the same except you can make a 28pt build a 32 pt build. Lesser and true are fine greater simply lacks

But we just went thru a 1000+ post thread on how everyone needs a 32 point build option available and now they have it. That feature alone was the focus of lots of attention, let alone all other aspects of a respect.

Zzevel
10-08-2009, 03:37 PM
So if I have a 28 point build with all the favor points I need to unlock drow and Favored Souls and True Reincarnate him, I lose my ability to create drow and favored soul... Correct? Say I have other chars (without the required favor) on the account that are already drow or FS, are they still playable even, do they become locked as if I went from VIP to f2p?

It looks as if your locked into a Greater only if you have to keep your favor for unlocking races and classes.. heven forbid any new races/classes come out after you choose to true reinc if you dont have 3409873487 capped toons!

Once you grind to unlock them it should be account wide, if you choose to True Reincarnate or delete that char, you should always be able to create Drow and FS!

Fishy
10-08-2009, 03:38 PM
This OPTION is clearly only for the most uber powergamers. I am not one of them, but I appreciate that the devs have devoted resources to cater to this loyal crowd.

I have no idea if anything similar is in the PnP rules, but from a roleplaying standpoint, it makes sense that your used tomes do not transfer to your new character. They were used by the previous body. For most definitions of Reincarnation, only the "soul" transfers to a new body. This would allow the use of items bound to character (bound to a character's "soul", if you will) to be used by the new body. Consumables that were used on the old body would not transfer, because those have nothing to do with a "soul."

That being said, consider the nature of a game like DDO. The more you play, the more you pay (sort of), and it is in the interest of Turbine to maximize the amount that you pay. If you have to play more to get your character to where you want it to be (36 point build, +4 tomes galore), Turbine wins, and only the uberest of the uber get bragging rights. This sort of thing *should* be extremely special, and I don't mind if only a few people per server get this accomplishment. They will certainly have earned it.

I like this new system. It allows the powergamers to distinguish themselves from the crowd, while still not making "lowly" 28-point builds massively inferior.

Gol
10-08-2009, 03:41 PM
I take it you haven't read about the Lesser Reincarnation?Yeah, but you obviously haven't.

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 03:45 PM
So if I have a 28 point build with all the favor points I need to unlock drow and Favored Souls and True Reincarnate him, I lose my ability to create drow and favored soul... Correct? Say I have other chars (without the required favor) on the account that are already drow or FS, are they still playable even, do they become locked as if I went from VIP to f2p?

It looks as if your locked into a Greater only if you have to keep your favor for unlocking races and classes.. heven forbid any new races/classes come out after you choose to true reinc if you dont have 3409873487 capped toons!

Once you grind to unlock them it should be account wide, if you choose to True Reincarnate or delete that char, you should always be able to create Drow and FS!

Not true. Once you unlock something with favor on a server it is always unlocked. It is why people were able to transfer there charcater with 32 point favor to other servers and open 32 point builds there while still maintaining their ability to have 32 pt builds on the original server.

Aspenor
10-08-2009, 03:48 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

Make eaten tomes apply at the minimum level currently implemented on the tome. Removing them completely is a bad idea.

Or just stick them in the new character's inventory to be used at the ML on the tome.

ahpook
10-08-2009, 03:52 PM
Lesser and Greater reincarnates fail to deliver what most people are looking for in a respec: The ability to drop a class level or two that was a mistake. Right now they only allow a change of albility and skill point distribution.

I think all respecs should upgrade to 32 pts if that has been unlocked. Put that in lesser reincanate. Allow greater reincarnate to change at least some class levels (not all, perhaps you get to reselect 4 class levels) to differentiate it from lesser reincarnate.

there is already a high cost associated with lesser and greater in that you have to reacquire tomes and XP. You should get a little more for that cost.

The_Phenx
10-08-2009, 03:54 PM
Make eaten tomes apply at the minimum level currently implemented on the tome. Removing them completely is a bad idea.

Or just stick them in the new character's inventory to be used at the ML on the tome.

It took a year and a half to get my +3 str tome... getting 2 extra stat points does not justify the loss of 4 +3 tomes and 2 +2.... I would be loosing 14 pts on my toon which would take a LONG time to re-get.

The_Phenx
10-08-2009, 03:55 PM
Lesser and Greater reincarnates fail to deliver what most people are looking for in a respec: The ability to drop a class level or two that was a mistake. Right now they only allow a change of albility and skill point distribution.

I think all respecs should upgrade to 32 pts if that has been unlocked. Put that in lesser reincanate. Allow greater reincarnate to change at least some class levels (not all, perhaps you get to reselect 4 class levels) to differentiate it from lesser reincarnate.

there is already a high cost associated with lesser and greater in that you have to reacquire tomes and XP. You should get a little more for that cost.

Tomes stick around for lesser and greater

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 03:56 PM
lesser simply allows you to redistribute stats you must keep your levels the same, greater is the same except you can make a 28pt build a 32 pt build. Lesser and true are fine greater simply lacks
More precisely, there should be a service for someone who wants to change old choices like class levels, but not go all the way up to 34 point builds.

It's less important as to whether that capability is added to Greater Reincarnate, or a 4th kind of "Major Reincarnation" is created.

The problem is that True Reincarnate offers two very different kinds of benefits:
1. Change your mind on old choices, which you could also get by deleting and rerolling.
2. Gain new powers , which are not obtainable any other way.

Thrudh
10-08-2009, 03:56 PM
It took a year and a half to get my +3 str tome... getting 2 extra stat points does not justify the loss of 4 +3 tomes and 2 +2.... I would be loosing 14 pts on my toon which would take a LONG time to re-get.

What if we give you +2 stat points, AND a free feat? :)

transtemporal
10-08-2009, 03:57 PM
Heh... the character builders gonna get a whole lot more complicated...

Nahual
10-08-2009, 03:58 PM
+4 int tome means 2 extra skills points a level which means everyone has UMD!!

I think it is a good Idea that they don't stay applied. A bit of a reward for having them like mailing them again is the best option if it will be done.

But if you grinded for a +4 tome usually you will have sets of +2 atleast ready for you char also. Im in the middle of powergamer casual gamer range and Have some tomes to spare.

I like all of this I do. I think the real questions would be:

1) How much harder will it be to lvl?
2) What feats are you able to keep? (I hope no class granted feats, like evasion because Id respect my improved evasion rogue) Only the ones you choose while you level. Toughness! Toughness!

Aspenor
10-08-2009, 03:58 PM
It took a year and a half to get my +3 str tome... getting 2 extra stat points does not justify the loss of 4 +3 tomes and 2 +2.... I would be loosing 14 pts on my toon which would take a LONG time to re-get.

Agreed completely.

This also makes, as many have mentioned, greed a major issue. Turbine really needs to re-think the removal of tomes from the character. It adds nothing to the mechanic, it definitely detracts from it, and it will cause problems in the playing population.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 03:59 PM
More precisely, there should be a service for someone who wants to change old choices like class levels, but not go all the way up to 34 point builds.

It's less important as to whether that capability is added to Greater Reincarnate, or a 4th kind of "Major Reincarnation" is created.

The problem is that True Reincarnate offers two very different kinds of benefits:
1. Change your mind on old choices, which you could also get by deleting and rerolling.
2. Gain new powers , which are not obtainable any other way.

This is also exacerbated by the fact that you can only fix choices twice. If you make a mistake on your second time, then you're completely stuck.

A 4th type of major reincarnation would at least fix that... It would let people fix choices without all the new powers gained, and would let double-reincarnated adapt to game changes 2-3 years down the road.

A set number of limits is great for new powers, a set number of limits for fixing mistakes and adapting to game changes is atrocious.

BlackSteel
10-08-2009, 04:00 PM
losing the +3 tomes you've grinded for isnt THAT big a deal

consider that all those +3's have just been outdated by +4's dropping in ToD. And +5's later on. yes it sucks, but all those +3 tomes while nice on our current characters, are already old news.

my only advice would be dont eat any +4's that drop in Tower, unless we know for a fact they wont travel with you to your new lvl 1

Thrudh
10-08-2009, 04:03 PM
There needs to be SOME penalty other than redo the exp...

You guys are fond of saying "Getting to level 20 only takes a week tops!"

Well, the devs decided a week of grinding wasn't a big enough penalty for the benefits (free feat and +2 build points).

You get to keep all your raid loot... +2 tomes are easy to get... So you'll have to regrind a few +3 tomes (and maybe one +4 tome)

That's a lot better than regrinding all your raid loot...

It's still a very good deal...

M.ham
10-08-2009, 04:03 PM
For those who do not like the fact that they will not get to keep eaten Tomes.... don't use this option.... simple as that.

Say you have a 28 pt build that has eaten 6 +2 Tomes, why would you use this option if you feel you will be inferior to the character you are replacing.... hmmm which should I keep. Use one of the other options for respec. You get to change pretty much everything else and you get to keep yer Tomes as well.... use Greater respec and get the extra 4 points going from 28 to 32.

I like the ideas for respec, gives a range of options... thumbs up.

M.

Thrudh
10-08-2009, 04:04 PM
Agreed completely.

This also makes, as many have mentioned, greed a major issue. Turbine really needs to re-think the removal of tomes from the character. It adds nothing to the mechanic, it definitely detracts from it, and it will cause problems in the playing population.


Why does it make greed a major issue? So people won't put tomes up rolls anymore... that it? that's the major issue?

M.ham
10-08-2009, 04:06 PM
...there is already a high cost associated with lesser and greater in that you have to reacquire tomes and XP. You should get a little more for that cost.

Appears that you get to keep your Tomes and XP with Lesser and Greater espec.

M.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 04:07 PM
So people won't put tomes up rolls anymore...
And actually, they will continue to offer tomes to others, because most people will be either:
1. Don't want to ever go through that long process of re-leveling their character.
2. Already used the True Reincarnation, and once again don't need tomes.

Only a minority of characters will be outside of one of those groups.

Bosco
10-08-2009, 04:09 PM
As for the "past life" feat. Does this mean a rogue can come back as a fighter and be able to keep evasion or even greater evasion as their feat?

Baahb3
10-08-2009, 04:14 PM
Interesting changes.

I would like to make one comment. I understand everyone's desire to have theri precious tomes carried over. I would to. However, there really is a simple reason why this is not possible. True reincarnation is very different from true ressurection. In true rez you physical body is brought back to life and your spirit is reconnected with it.

In true reincarnation your physical body has been destroyed and your spirit is attached to a new body or form. That is why you get some past life feats as your spirit can not remember all of whay you had in your past life since it is not an organic brain. As to the tomes.. they were physical objects that enhanced your physical body. They were destroyed when they were consumed. The physical enhancements to your body were also destroyed when your body was destroyed. Thus there is no way to carry over tomes.

Long wnded I know and not popular I know but still true all the same.

Excellent explanation though people will not like it.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 04:16 PM
Excellent explanation though people will not like it.

Mostly because it's using in game lore to justify metagame design decisions. That's a real no no in game designing.

Gum
10-08-2009, 04:21 PM
Interesting changes.

I would like to make one comment. I understand everyone's desire to have theri precious tomes carried over. I would to. However, there really is a simple reason why this is not possible. True reincarnation is very different from true ressurection. In true rez you physical body is brought back to life and your spirit is reconnected with it.

In true reincarnation your physical body has been destroyed and your spirit is attached to a new body or form. That is why you get some past life feats as your spirit can not remember all of whay you had in your past life since it is not an organic brain. As to the tomes.. they were physical objects that enhanced your physical body. They were destroyed when they were consumed. The physical enhancements to your body were also destroyed when your body was destroyed. Thus there is no way to carry over tomes.

Long wnded I know and not popular I know but still true all the same.


Very good explanation. Thank you

I gotta say, This announcement really has my brain working lol. The only part I don't get is the increase to size. It would be nice to have this optional. Some halflings really like their size, and are proud of it. All in all, so far I think it's great, just need to take it all in a bit longer lol.

ariel7
10-08-2009, 04:27 PM
DEVS, please explain life feats. DO you get some of your previously selected feats inherently, as in, my ranger begins at level 1 with combat expertise, doge, or mobility? This means, in effect, you can cram that one or two other feats you wanted in since you don't have to select it now?

Lithic
10-08-2009, 04:28 PM
:oAny chance we could get a /showgrow off option? Some of us like the way our characters look now and are worried the extra height will make them unlovable :o

rimble
10-08-2009, 04:29 PM
You will also be given access to a "past life" feat, where influences of your previous character class can aid you in your new life/profession.

What if you just want to be like, a Monk three times? This almost sounds it encourages you to do different classes to get full benefit from it...guess we'll learn more as people fiddle with it.

Tap4black
10-08-2009, 04:35 PM
I have important questions regarding the size changes.

I have a warforged fighter, who is quite tall already and is utterly terrifying. He can often be found in the harbor with hoards of newbies fleeing from him. Here is a pic:

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/ScreenShot00000.jpg

now, my questions are, when he is reborn as a 36 point build:

1) are 28 point halflings going to be so small relatively that he can wear several of their heads on a necklace?
2) will he be able to fit through the door in the lobster? or will he have to crash through the wall?
3) how many party members will I be able to carry in my backpack
4) will my heavy picks be too small to use? should I be looking for falchions or greatswords for each hand?

Thanks for your attention to this matter

~cratonic

Even though the reputation system is totally moronic, I'm tossin you a +1 for this classic:D

Wizzly_Bear
10-08-2009, 04:44 PM
I love the general idea of this, but I do not like losing tomes on true res. Please consider the option of having new min level tomes applied up to the value used prior to the res either while the character levels, or as bound to character loot when they res. Even considering this option many characters will lose skills points from the min level change to int tomes.

Thelmallen
10-08-2009, 04:46 PM
I have important questions regarding the size changes.

I have a warforged fighter, who is quite tall already and is utterly terrifying. He can often be found in the harbor with hoards of newbies fleeing from him. Here is a pic:

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/ScreenShot00000.jpg

now, my questions are, when he is reborn as a 36 point build:

1) are 28 point halflings going to be so small relatively that he can wear several of their heads on a necklace?
2) will he be able to fit through the door in the lobster? or will he have to crash through the wall?
3) how many party members will I be able to carry in my backpack
4) will my heavy picks be too small to use? should I be looking for falchions or greatswords for each hand?

Thanks for your attention to this matter

~cratonic

LOL nice one, Leafy

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 04:46 PM
Mostly because it's using in game lore to justify metagame design decisions. That's a real no no in game designing.

Hmm did you ever consdier they are you in-game lore to limit an in-game way to re-do past mistakes. Everyone complains when they randomly break game rules yet when it suits you you want them to break game rules. I am sorry by the very definition of true reincarnation you can not carry over tomes. You simply can not recreate a now completely destroyed item nor can you give the enhancements of said item to a new body.

Like it or not they did it right. To allow tomes to carry over would have been a grievous mistake. If you do not want to loose your tomes than do not reincarnate.... live with your mistakes or with challenges that a changing system created in your character ( I do realize some changes in the game effected characters in a dramatic way). If you made it to 20 then whatever mistakes were made either on your part on by the changing of the game on you were not so serious as to make your character unplayable. Thus the choice to use true reincarnation and the penalty of loosing your tomes is one you must pay for the chance to change things. It is not being forced upon you.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 04:49 PM
If you made it to 20 then whatever mistakes were made either on your part on by the changing of the game on you were not so serious as to make your character unplayable.
That, and most of the rest of your post, is a clear example of a Nirvana Fallacy (reversed):
"The situation isn't completely terrible, so no improvement is needed"

Wizzly_Bear
10-08-2009, 04:52 PM
btw....I was considering making a new Wizzly just because I like levelling him...this change couldn't have come at a better time. The only thing giving me pause is the thought of losing my +3 str, +2 wis, and +2 con tomes, plus my used at level 1 for extra skill pts +2 int tome.

The_Ick
10-08-2009, 04:52 PM
What feats are you able to keep? (I hope no class granted feats, like evasion because Id respect my improved evasion rogue) Only the ones you choose while you level. Toughness! Toughness!

That brings up an interesting point. What if you leveled a rogue to 20, TR them and because a fighter in your next life. Could you keep evasion?

zealous
10-08-2009, 04:59 PM
What if you just want to be like, a Monk three times? This almost sounds it encourages you to do different classes to get full benefit from it...guess we'll learn more as people fiddle with it.
And what is your "class" if you're a melee specced 7bard/6paladin/6barb eh? ;)

Could be that you get stacking things e.g. capstone as a feat=>Can have 3 capstones at 3rd incarnation or 1d6 SA/+1str+1con rage type thingies.

Guess we'll have to wait and see...

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 05:02 PM
That, and most of the rest of your post, is a clear example of a Nirvana Fallacy (reversed):
"The situation isn't completely terrible, so no improvement is needed"


You want something you can't have and refuse to acknowledge that do so would break the fundamental principle of the difference between true rez and true reincarnation. I am sorry but I will debate this with anyone to the end of time. Besides it is true if you made it to 20 then your character is not likely to be that flawed. Its not a Nirvana fallacy its the truth and the truth is never a fallacy! Maybe its not perfect but for the love god nobody demands perfection... if you want perfection for yourself that is fine but to whine that you can't have your tomes and demand that the devs violate a fundamental truth (at least as commonly accepted in fantasy gaming) just so you can achieve perfection or whatever reason you believe you have is simply erroneous logic.

Glenalth
10-08-2009, 05:03 PM
I'm betting the past life feats will be small bonuses like +d6 sneak attack for being a rogue or 20 extra spell points for casters.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 05:06 PM
And you most of your arguments are an example of spoiled brat syndrome:

I want it! I want it! I want it my way!

You want something you can't have and refuse to acknowledge that do so would break the fundamental principle of the difference between true rez and true reincarnation. I am sorry but I will debate this with anyone to the end of time. Besides it is true if you made it to 20 then your character is not likely to be that flawed. Its not a Nirvana fallacy its the truth and the truth is never a fallacy! Maybe its not perfect but for the love god nobody demands perfection... if you want perfection for yourself that is fine but to whine that you can't have your tomes and demand that the devs violate a fundamental truth (at least as commonly accepted in fantasy gaming) just so you can achieve perfection or whatever reason you believe you have is simply erroneous logic.

Someone is sounding like a brat here, but it isn't A-D...

I was just pointing out that using in game lore to justify how something should work mechanically just end up with crappy mechanics. I never said that this was a crappy mechanic, or anything remotely sounding like that.

Mechanics should justify the lore behind them, not the other way around.

You're using the end result to justify the method which is silly. I don't necessarily think it's a bad mechanic to make us regrind tomes... but I do acknowledge that the reason you have to regrind them has nothing to do with the lore behind reincarnation.

I mean... if that were true, then why do you keep tomes on the lesser versions, but lose them in the greater versions? Oops, guess your lore arguments broke down there.

Nyvn
10-08-2009, 05:08 PM
Losing tomes ick. If only this info was out yesterday, when I pulled and ate a +3 tome =/

M.ham
10-08-2009, 05:08 PM
...Your forum join date makes me suspect these kinda issues never applied to you...so you'll forgive me if I ignore your opinions....

No problem, if you don't mind me ignoring the crying....

Use the options that are presented to you or not... your choice.

M.

Dretharis
10-08-2009, 05:09 PM
And you most of your arguments are an example of spoiled brat syndrome:

I want it! I want it! I want it my way!

You want something you can't have and refuse to acknowledge that do so would break the fundamental principle of the difference between true rez and true reincarnation. I am sorry but I will debate this with anyone to the end of time. Besides it is true if you made it to 20 then your character is not likely to be that flawed. Its not a Nirvana fallacy its the truth and the truth is never a fallacy! Maybe its not perfect but for the love god nobody demands perfection... if you want perfection for yourself that is fine but to whine that you can't have your tomes and demand that the devs violate a fundamental truth (at least as commonly accepted in fantasy gaming) just so you can achieve perfection or whatever reason you believe you have is simply erroneous logic.

While I think overall Turbine's made a lot of good moves here, even with the tomes, I have to disagree with your specific position here.

The point of the Lamannia server and the discussion thereof is to test the changes, and provide feedback on them. It'd be pretty pointless if the only feedback provided was "Yeah it's awesome!" - while it's nice to be supportive, change doesn't generally come without an expressed need or desire for it.

Also, truth is subjective. It's entirely possible to believe something true, and be fallacious in your reasoning; it's never possible to be absolutely certain of most truths.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 05:12 PM
No problem, if you don't mind me ignoring the crying....

Use the options that are presented to you or not... your choice.

M.

Or... you know... give feedback on the beta version to have it refined and polished when released. That would be what i choose.

Mjesko
10-08-2009, 05:18 PM
Hmmm, the True Reincarnation sounds like a time sink for me. The players could be happy to play all the old quests again with a stronger character, which could be an easy way to generate content and Turbine earns money for every True Reincarnation.

Spisey
10-08-2009, 05:19 PM
Looks like it's time to start hitting 20th completions before release! Gotz to get mah tomes restocked on Spisey....

Damn those two years to collect them all! :(

So what feats do each class keep upon reincarnation? Wondering if I can just remake the same m/c with a few old abilites saved?

Can we get a breakdown of feats per class that get saved? Are they static feats or are they chosen by the player?

transtemporal
10-08-2009, 05:22 PM
Agreed completely.

This also makes, as many have mentioned, greed a major issue. Turbine really needs to re-think the removal of tomes from the character. It adds nothing to the mechanic, it definitely detracts from it, and it will cause problems in the playing population.

/agree. I think most people will chose to keep a +3/+4 tome against a definite or even potential future TR requirement, even for stats they initially dumped. And who could blame them? They're potentially gonna level that toon 3 times before they're done with it and they'll want it to be as uber as it can be.

I can't really see Turbine changing this one though. A) its not in their best interests to reduce grind; and B) unless the degradation to game culture leads to people actually unsubscribing in droves (and not just blowing hot air, as we're apt to do) they'll simply rely on us adapting to the change.

Airie
10-08-2009, 05:28 PM
Love the concept. Can't wait to see it in action.

Like everyone else, I am highly curious what the past-life feats can get you.

Looks very cool, devs, nice work.

M.ham
10-08-2009, 05:31 PM
Or... you know... give feedback on the beta version to have it refined and polished when released. That would be what i choose.

Now that is something I can agree with :)

M.

Thrudh
10-08-2009, 05:33 PM
As for the "past life" feat. Does this mean a rogue can come back as a fighter and be able to keep evasion or even greater evasion as their feat?

I'd be willing to bet real money that the answer is no...

I'm sure they're talking standard feats, not class feats

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 05:35 PM
I'd be willing to bet real money that the answer is no...

I'm sure they're talking standard feats, not class feats

It says it's class-specific...

Thrudh
10-08-2009, 05:36 PM
Hmmm, the True Reincarnation sounds like a time sink for me. The players could be happy to play all the old quests again with a stronger character, which could be an easy way to generate content and Turbine earns money for every True Reincarnation.

Well, duh... :)

Emili
10-08-2009, 05:39 PM
/agree. I think most people will chose to keep a +3/+4 tome against a definite or even potential future TR requirement, even for stats they initially dumped. And who could blame them? They're potentially gonna level that toon 3 times before they're done with it and they'll want it to be as uber as it can be.

I can't really see Turbine changing this one though. A) its not in their best interests to reduce grind; and B) unless the degradation to game culture leads to people actually unsubscribing in droves (and not just blowing hot air, as we're apt to do) they'll simply rely on us adapting to the change.
Totally dead on.

Actually from my perspective the wise builder will bank EVERY tome... Look at it this way... I've 13 characters most are capped or high level, chances are I'm not going to roll a new one but reroll an old in this fashion... and along the way am going to want the opportunity to spike every stat multiple times for an edge. Afterall, this is tweaking for the edge. Level one to cap be not very far ... the bulk of game play is all in the loot, in this case most loot is kept - except tomes - thus character 1 first True Reincarnate (+1, +2 +3 +4 str tome, +1 +2 + 3 +4 dex tome.... ), character 2 (+1, +2 +3 +4 str tome, +1 +2 + 3 +4 dex tome.... ) ... etc... eventually to character 13 (+1, +2 +3 +4 str tome, +1 +2 + 3 +4 dex tome.... ).

Be no doubt levels 1-20 less then a month's time for most ... usually much sooner I believe we had my nieces FvS level 20 within two weeks. !2 characters a within a year and tome drop increases ... not likely as more loot is added to the game not less, more players playing - true but the intelligent builder with plans for long play would not likely think any different than I. I've just pulled all my +2 tomes off the AH. I have some left over pre-mod 9 int tomes too to be used on last version of favorite toons.

Nyvn
10-08-2009, 05:44 PM
Perhaps something between Greater and True Reincarnation without the extra stat points?

Superior Reincarnation

Where players are permitted to change level progression, re-spend their ability points, change their feat selection, re-allocate skill points, spells, etc., or are free to select a path.

Unlike True Reincarnation, characters will retain all favor and experience, but reincarnate with the same number of build points of the current incarnation. Like Lesser and Greater Reincarnation, this allows you to change the skills, feats, and abilities of your character without having to start the character over again. Unlike Lesser Reincarnation, Superior Reincarnation upgrades a non-drow 28 point character to a 32 point character, and does not have to train the exact level progression of the old character.

spifflove
10-08-2009, 05:49 PM
It says it's class-specific...

adamantine body is going to look very funny on my halfling

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 06:02 PM
Someone is sounding like a brat here, but it isn't A-D...

I was just pointing out that using in game lore to justify how something should work mechanically just end up with crappy mechanics. I never said that this was a crappy mechanic, or anything remotely sounding like that.

Mechanics should justify the lore behind them, not the other way around.

You're using the end result to justify the method which is silly. I don't necessarily think it's a bad mechanic to make us regrind tomes... but I do acknowledge that the reason you have to regrind them has nothing to do with the lore behind reincarnation.

I mean... if that were true, then why do you keep tomes on the lesser versions, but lose them in the greater versions? Oops, guess your lore arguments broke down there.

Well I wasn't responding to you and no I doubt I am the spoiled brat... i am not demanding anything nearly everyone else is. He called my argument a fallacy and I called his a different version of the same thing. Besides if you read I never said he was a spoiled brat I said his arguement was.... very different things.

Secondly, no my lore arguement does not breakdown. You could easily argue that lesser and greater reincarnation do not actually destroy the body since you have to maintain the same alignment, same race, and same starting class it simply returns it to a early state. However true reincarnation requires the physical destruction of the body. So actually my lore arguement does not falter it, in fact, remains intact. Your arguemtns; however, still hold no validity. Even in a fantasy game there is a fundamental rule set. In this case the 3.5 dungeon and dragons rule set. True reincarantion returns you spirit to this mortal world in a different body... thus you can not have the physical enhancemetns (read tomes) you had. Like it or not you can not break the rules just because you don't want to loose the tome you invested. If you don't want to loose them don't use true reincarnation.

The game mechanics follow the rules... period. Face it you lost the argument before it ever began. Tolero stated in a response that the physical body is destroyed thus all enhancements are destroyed including those given by tomes.

Look at it this way: lets say in the future the human mind can be transferred to a different body (this is just for the sake of an arguement). A girl gets breast enhancement or a guy gets hair plugs. They are in a horrible car accident and their bodies are trashed. In the last moments their minds are transferred to new bodies. The girls body does not have enhanced breasts and the guys body is bald. Guess what their physical enhancements do not transfer with them. They do not get free breat jobs and free hair plugs they will have to pay for them again. This is excatly the same as the True reincarnation scenario we have now. Can be done here and can't be done ind DDO. To do otherwise would be wrong!

Roman
10-08-2009, 06:06 PM
adamantine body is going to look very funny on my halfling

That is a race specific (not class specific) feat. But yes, that would be funny.

Gelandor
10-08-2009, 06:14 PM
Hmm I am thinking about a 2wf Ranger, reincarnated into a Barb, do we get GTWF without needing to meet the dex requirements? Hmm :rolleyes:

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 06:15 PM
The game mechanics follow the rules... period.

The game mechanics DETERMINE the rules... period.

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 06:15 PM
Your real life example was so illogical and ********, I literally laughed out loud. Just to be clear, I'm calling your example "illogical and ********", not you. There is a difference after all :rolleyes:


If you felt it was illogical then you totally failed to understand it. The unimagined shall remain unelightened.

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 06:21 PM
The game mechanics DETERMINE the rules... period.

Let me ask you this what the heck does your arguement over game mechanics have to do with lore or rules. Its very simple tome gives you increased physical attributes. Your physical body is destroyed (confirmed not only by the rules of reincarnation but by Tolero) thus your physical enhancements can not carry over. That is simply physics which governs everything.

Blind_Skwerl
10-08-2009, 06:21 PM
And I like my Halflings small.

Me too. They're tighter that way. :eek:

Gum
10-08-2009, 06:28 PM
Let me ask you this what the heck does your arguement over game mechanics have to do with lore or rules. Its very simple tome gives you increased physical attributes. Your physical body is destroyed (confirmed not only by the rules of reincarnation but by Tolero) thus your physical enhancements can not carry over. That is simply physics which governs everything.

Yappers. It's really that basic. Your physical body is no more, but the spirit likes to travel ;)

Dexxaan
10-08-2009, 06:29 PM
so if a capped 28, does this, they become 32 points AND gain 2 more points?


so someone could eventually have a 40 or 50 point character?

LMAO - I as wondering how long it would take before someone tried pushing the envelope.


Dude a 28Pt becomes a 32....you want a beachfront condo on top of this? :D


.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 06:38 PM
And you most of your arguments are an example of spoiled brat syndrome:

I want it! I want it! I want it my way!
That is pathetically untrue. You clearly don't even know what my arguments ARE.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 06:38 PM
Let me ask you this what the heck does your arguement over game mechanics have to do with lore or rules. Its very simple tome gives you increased physical attributes. Your physical body is destroyed (confirmed not only by the rules of reincarnation but by Tolero) thus your physical enhancements can not carry over. That is simply physics which governs everything.

Of course it's confirmned by Tolero. They made up the thing about the body being burned to fit the reincarnation they chose.

That's the point. You can make the lore fit whatever decisions you make. But you can't use lore to justify them. So saying that it's ok that no one can keep tomes because your body burned is saying that the effect in fact caused the cause.

It's backwards. That's all I'm saying. If they wanted to include tomes, they easily could. They don't want to, and that's the only justification that's needed.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 06:39 PM
LMAO - I as wondering how long it would take before someone tried pushing the envelope.


Dude a 28Pt becomes a 32....you want a beachfront condo on top of this? :D


.

He becomes a 34....

BattleCircle
10-08-2009, 06:40 PM
adamantine body is going to look very funny on my halfling

that would be race specific not class specific.

I think a cleric with improved evasion would be freaking awesome :D

maddmatt70
10-08-2009, 06:43 PM
One of the biggest issues for alot folks with some of their current characters is the desire to change some of their class levels. What is odd about this system is somebody has to level their mule or shelved character or gimp character to level 20 in order to rectify this and get a true reincarnation. I would propose a different system. My proposal is for the first true reincarnation you have to be level 15 and the second true reincarnation level 20. This will appease alot of people who just want to restart their eyesore of a character over, but yet maintain the grinding you require.

My overall feeling for this system is if ddo becomes about levelling the same character over and over I quit. As long as you keep releasing end game material I am cool with these levelling game changes.

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 06:47 PM
That is pathetically untrue. You clearly don't even know what my arguments ARE.


And that is my point you clearly don't understand mine.

TheJusticar
10-08-2009, 06:49 PM
1. It's only for those who are willing to give up all their XP and favor (and if I read correctly, it will take longer to level).
2. Addresses the wah-wah boys by giving them 2 extra points they can put on INT instead of a tome.
3. Definitely geared to the power levelers.
4. Special title/name to make feel people "special."
5. Can keep (some/all?) feats from a past life.

Not my cup of tea but sounds promising ...

Then I read the part about size increase? Wow, with all due respect, devs, that has got to be one of the most asinine ideas I've heard. It's beyond absurd. There's nothing in the D&D lore (other than temporary enchantments and illusions) that would increase an individual size to beyond whatever that race's upper limits are (as described in DMG/PHB). It serves absolutely NO PURPOSE other than to make toons look complete disproportionate and preposterous. I hope the height thing was a joke ... else I've lost the already-low image of Turbine as viable developer.

Godspeed.

rpasell
10-08-2009, 06:50 PM
I like the added options. I agree with the sentiment that Greater should allow you to correct multiclassing mistakes.

What is truly shocking is that it took almost 10 pages of posts before it devolved into a name calling match.

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 06:52 PM
Of course it's confirmned by Tolero. They made up the thing about the body being burned to fit the reincarnation they chose.

That's the point. You can make the lore fit whatever decisions you make. But you can't use lore to justify them. So saying that it's ok that no one can keep tomes because your body burned is saying that the effect in fact caused the cause.

It's backwards. That's all I'm saying. If they wanted to include tomes, they easily could. They don't want to, and that's the only justification that's needed.

The concept of reincarnation actually predates this game by several thousand years. In all of the history of the world, in all the writing and teaachings about reincarnation from ancient hebrew, the chinese, the ancient persians and every other culture and religion including fantasy genre never has reincarnation included returning to your last physical body. Never. Ever. So they are not just using lore they are using the very history of the world we live and play in. A thousand years of history is hard to dispute.

Dirac
10-08-2009, 06:55 PM
This is a very interesting and exciting development. I believe it is very important that previously used tomes are added to the character during true reincarnation like they are for lesser and greater. Many hard-core players re-roll at the drop of a hat because they don't mind. They will also grind out the ingredients to do the true reincarnation. The people who will pay for this feature will be those serious players who want the better character but couldn't take the grind to recapture all their old loot. They probably will do the grind in leveling once, but losing the tomes is a big deal. You are going to lose a significant fraction of your earning potential because many characters that people would have paid to re-roll now will not.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 06:57 PM
That is simply physics which governs everything.
Physics governs everything? No, wrong. Not in the worlds of D&D it doesn't.

There are entire professional organizations dedicated to the practical violation of the laws of physics. How the bonus from stat tomes interacts with this *NEW* reincarnate effect is an arbitrary invention of whatever rules of magic the authors come up with. (And note that this reincarnate does not function like the D&D druid spell of the same name, which preserves most of the class levels of the subject)

Delt
10-08-2009, 06:58 PM
The concept of reincarnation actually predates this game by several thousand years. In all of the history of the world, in all the writing and teaachings about reincarnation from ancient hebrew, the chinese, the ancient persians and every other culture and religion including fantasy genre never has reincarnation included returning to your last physical body. Never. Ever. So they are not just using lore they are using the very history of the world we live and play in. A thousand years of history is hard to dispute.

Lol...man...

I gotta squelch before I earn infraction points :p

Saice
10-08-2009, 06:58 PM
Me too. They're tighter that way. :eek:

Oh... god... I bet you like to hear them crack too. :eek:

rpasell
10-08-2009, 07:01 PM
A thousand years of history is hard to dispute.

Not to get involved in the philosophical argument, but now I can't help it.

Disputing history is actually easy. The accounts of history are written from a perspective, and with a bias. Read "A People's History of The United States". It's completely different from anything I was taught in primary school. I'm sure many of the conquered peoples in world history, that didn't have written language, would have told a much different story than their conqueror.

It's kind of like saying "A thousand years of Christianity is hard to dispute." or "A thousand flies in a pile of ### can't be wrong."

/logicfail

I give myself 10 infraction points for being baited.

Lehrman
10-08-2009, 07:01 PM
As part of our new Reincarnation system, we're previewing the True Reincarnation on Lamannia!

A true reincarnation lets the player recreate a more powerful character and change anything about them (except for the name and gender), including their class and race. Tapping into memories of their former selves, true reincarnated characters will receive additional build points to spend in character generation as well as unique bonuses in the form of access to Past Life Feats. Each True generation will also be physically larger than previous generations (you're welcome Halflings!). True reincarnation allows players to relive their journey through Stormreach. Characters will keep no experience or favor upon creation, will start at level 1, and require more experience to progress through each level. True reincarnation grants 2 bonus build points for every true reincarnation, and are always base 32 point, even if the character was initially created as a 28 point.

When you reincarnate, your character will become taller, you'll have a special status icon on your name, and you'll begin your "new life" in Stormreach with extra ability points! You may True Reincarnate a character up to two times, for a total of 36 points. You will also be given access to a "past life" feat, where influences of your previous character class can aid you in your new life/profession.
A character must be level 20 to True Reincarnate, and must speak with Kruz the reincarnation trainer in House Jorasco. Kruz requires a True Heart of Wood to perform a reincarnation. True Hearts of Wood can be purchased in the DDO Store, or earned by collecting epic tokens in the new Epic difficulty dungeons.

Not level 20 yet? We will be hosting special reincarnation activities during this preview, so stay tuned for more information! If you're already able to reincarnate, please let us know your feedback on the reincarnation system!

So...a level 20 paladin reincarnates as a monk and keeps his charisma bonus to saves feat...then a lvl 20 monk rerolls as a sorc and keeps his evasion feat (or improved evasion)...that has the potential to be quite nice, but other than those two feats, or paladin fear immunity, I am having a hard time thinking of anything class specific that I might want to carry over. Hrm. Guess monk, then pali would make more sense.

Gyries
10-08-2009, 07:04 PM
Why not provide for some method that when you have eaten say a +4Str tome that your toon is now flagged as having eaten it. You can then go True Reincarnate and as you get to the appropriate level you can go find the new an improved "Fred" and have the knowledge retrieved. i.e. level 3 you go to "Fred" and pay to have the +1Str tome added to your stats, level 6 (not sure of minimum for +2) you go get the +2Str tome applied all the way up to the tomes you had eaten before.

You can choose instead to have "Fred" require an item drop from a quest, similar to the free to play sigil but perhaps more common from a level appropriate quest. i.e. Complete WW on normal or hard and a +1 Tome Token appears in the final loot list for you to trade to "Fred". The token could also be sold for Tubine Points in the store if money is a concern. Maybe "Token of Tome Recall" becomes a guaranteed drop in the new epic raids.

This would remove the concern about which if any tomes people could recover, as you could raise your stat point by point up to what you had already eaten only at the appropriate level, or at least recover your tomes quickly.

Just a thought.

p.s. I fully agree that some 4th option allowing one to keep Favor, and Levels but drop a class would be beneficial. Perhaps let them only reincarnate into levels of a previous class that they have taken. i.e. RogX/RgrY/MnkZ could choose any combination of Rogue, Ranger or Monk but not be able to become a Cleric or Bard etc. It becomes a refocusing or dedication to a class as opposed to a full respec.

bobbryan2
10-08-2009, 07:09 PM
The concept of reincarnation actually predates this game by several thousand years. In all of the history of the world, in all the writing and teaachings about reincarnation from ancient hebrew, the chinese, the ancient persians and every other culture and religion including fantasy genre never has reincarnation included returning to your last physical body. Never. Ever. So they are not just using lore they are using the very history of the world we live and play in. A thousand years of history is hard to dispute.

Wow. I seem to have gotten involved in a land war in Asia.

rimble
10-08-2009, 07:11 PM
The concept of reincarnation actually predates this game by several thousand years. In all of the history of the world, in all the writing and teaachings about reincarnation from ancient hebrew, the chinese, the ancient persians and every other culture and religion including fantasy genre never has reincarnation included returning to your last physical body. Never. Ever. So they are not just using lore they are using the very history of the world we live and play in. A thousand years of history is hard to dispute.

Or they could have called it 'Limitless Wish' and you'd come up with something else to justify it. It's just their mechanic choice, that's it. They wanted to make it costly.

Kistilan
10-08-2009, 07:13 PM
*flexes muscles*

Imma get me some Reincarnation. And.... all we need are drow half-orcs tieflings aasimar shape-changers (Eberron version) gnomes half-elves and some associated classes.

Nice job Turbine. I'm glad That Which Has No Life had some impact on how you went about this option.

Delt
10-08-2009, 07:16 PM
Nice job Turbine. I'm glad That Which Has No Life had some impact on how you went about this option.

Reincarnation is pointless....how do you kill that which has no life?!

transtemporal
10-08-2009, 07:27 PM
Mechanics should justify the lore behind them, not the other way around.

Exactly. In fact, if you took the reincarnation metaphor to its logical conclusion, you wouldn't actually be able to chose the form you reincarnated into, it would be determined by your karma. Imagine how that would've gone down with the playerbase, lol. :)

Personally, I would probably have chosen a phoenix "rebirth" metaphor over "reincarnation" but hey, as "flavor text" who cares.

muffinlad
10-08-2009, 07:27 PM
IMHO-

If it is a True Reinc. you are not going to get to keep the tomes you ate, AND get 2 more build points, AND get an upgrade to 32 points, AND get a few other cool things.

It is entirely reasonable that you could run Reaver, Hound, VOD, TOD, and the new EPIC queen and have a nice selection of +2 to +4 tomes for your new character, and rings and swords, and other raid gear, etc.

Yes, you would burn the ones you have, but that is the price for the +2 additional build points. If you don't like it, don't do it. Other options are available, and the total of the options offered here don't seem as balanced as the offer the Devs are implementing, with most being offered as "what would be good for my character".

Regarding size changes- I like them, and think it is a cool idea. If, either at launch of this, or later, Turbine could offer a toggle to turn the size change on or off, that would be better. If they can't, or don't see that they could in the future, they may want to conduct a more indepth survey of their customer base to make sure it wont shake loose too many customers.

Regards,

muffinshrinker

Sharzade
10-08-2009, 07:32 PM
I wish that True Reincarnation could be tweaked so that the player gets to choose whether their character is reborn smaller, the same, or larger.

My personal preference would be to decrease character size during True Reincarnation. It would be groovy to have a more petite Dwarven female, or an even smaller Halfling Rogue. :p I've often wished my Human females were a bit smaller, so sizing down during True Reincarnation would be a very fun option.

For male characters, getting bigger is Hawt and macho looking. For my females, on the other hand, I'd love <3 the option to be a little smaller/stay the same.

Brainwave: I'm hoping that True Reincarnation includes access to fun cosmetic features like hair-dyes! :D

Sharz
:)
;)

maddmatt70
10-08-2009, 07:46 PM
So...a level 20 paladin reincarnates as a monk and keeps his charisma bonus to saves feat...then a lvl 20 monk rerolls as a sorc and keeps his evasion feat (or improved evasion)...that has the potential to be quite nice, but other than those two feats, or paladin fear immunity, I am having a hard time thinking of anything class specific that I might want to carry over. Hrm. Guess monk, then pali would make more sense.

I actually think this aspect is more powerful then the +2 build points and lends itself to some broken situations. An example of this is carrying over combat expertise from a character that had 13 int to a character that has an 8 int. Power attack for warchanter bards, dex can now be dumped on a tempest ranger with the dodge feat from a previous class, etc. The way I read this is it does not apply to class abilities but just feats.

RavenStormclaw
10-08-2009, 07:50 PM
Physics governs everything? No, wrong. Not in the worlds of D&D it doesn't.

There are entire professional organizations dedicated to the practical violation of the laws of physics. How the bonus from stat tomes interacts with this *NEW* reincarnate effect is an arbitrary invention of whatever rules of magic the authors come up with. (And note that this reincarnate does not function like the D&D druid spell of the same name, which preserves most of the class levels of the subject)

Really... I am sorry do we not have gravity in DDO? If I don't have a feather fall item on don't I fall like a rock (unless of course I am a monk or a 17th level or higher favored soul)? Does it not rain in DDO? Does the sun set and rise? Does water not flow down hill? Actually the answer to all these questions is yes. They could not be without the laws of physics. Yes you can use magic to overcome the natural laws of physics but they are still there and still govern the basic functions of the universe. So, in fact, your argument is fallacy just because you can overcome something with magic does not mean it exists. By your argument because man has escaped the gravity of this planet gravity must no longer exist... yet it does.

Yes I realize that this spell is different from Pnp; however, one basic theme is the same. You get a new body. Your physical enhancements have no means to carry over.

Anyway this is a useless debate. Its fixed as it is. I doubt and hope it won't change. I have decided just because you show someone the path to enlightenment doesn't mean they will follow it. I am done with this. I have much better things to do with my time then debate philosophy with someone who refuses to understand the basic argument.

You can respond or not I care not as of this moment I am through.

Jonny_D
10-08-2009, 07:51 PM
Perhaps something between Greater and True Reincarnation without the extra stat points?

Superior Reincarnation

Where players are permitted to change level progression, re-spend their ability points, change their feat selection, re-allocate skill points, spells, etc., or are free to select a path.

Unlike True Reincarnation, characters will retain all favor and experience, but reincarnate with the same number of build points of the current incarnation. Like Lesser and Greater Reincarnation, this allows you to change the skills, feats, and abilities of your character without having to start the character over again. Unlike Lesser Reincarnation, Superior Reincarnation upgrades a non-drow 28 point character to a 32 point character, and does not have to train the exact level progression of the old character.

I like this, and this is what people want, achoice to change class with out having to start from scratch. I would pay more money to simply change my level progression and get no other perks. I do like the true reincarnate option, and the lesser/greater option, but feel something in the middle would be appropriate also.

that being said if unbound +3 tomes come into loot tables then there is no need to added a 4th reincarnation option. because I will just do one character at a time while the others keep hitting up end game content until their time comes be rerolled.

Blind_Skwerl
10-08-2009, 07:51 PM
Oh... god... I bet you like to hear them crack too. :eek:

Only when I go for the donkey punch. :D

ariel7
10-08-2009, 07:58 PM
Only when I go for the donkey punch. :D

LMAO


Me too. They're tighter that way. :eek:

OMG you always make me smile!

transtemporal
10-08-2009, 08:06 PM
Your real life example was so illogical and ********, I literally laughed out loud.

Its almost sig-worthy its so bizarre. :D

Junts
10-08-2009, 08:12 PM
It does make you want to shed a tear for all of the people that farmed out the full 3085 favor though.

Yeah, I really think there's a design flaw here. I understand they don't want people reincarnating with +3 or 4 int tomes for bonus skill points, but there's a wierd situation here where characters who are -really- established with many +3 tomes will actually be penalized for reincarnating unless its possible to acquire transferrable +3 tomes in this mod's loot tables. This change benefits new level 20s far more than the ones people have been raiding with for 2 years, because a full set of +3 tomes is way more beneficial than 4 extra build tomes in terms of total statistics.

Turbine has never in my recollection implemented something like this that's actually detrimental to the highest-end characters and makes new creations superior in the long term to older ones.

I like all of this, but I really think that inherent bonuses need to turn into ml-appropriate tomes in your inventory. I should not want to reincarnate Jaerlach less than my other chars becacuse he has 6 +3 tomes and the others don't.


Without a way to reliably get back the +3 tomes you've earned, a character who true reincarnates with a full set will actually lose statistic points, since +3 tomes in your primary stats will gain you far more total statistic than 2 or 4 extra build points.

This is even more true for builds that max a statistic and have a +3 or 4 tome in it.

I understand they might like the idea of making people re-grind tomes, but its the worst and longest grind on DDO.. it takes 6 months of raiding to get a full +3 tome set. There's precious few characters who really have a full set. Why put them in a position where true reincarnation will actually make them worse when it makes everyone else better?

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 08:23 PM
Yes, you would burn the ones you have, but that is the price for the +2 additional build points. If you don't like it, don't do it. Other options are available, and the total of the options offered here don't seem as balanced as the offer the Devs are implementing, with most being offered as "what would be good for my character".
And what if I don't want +2 build points, and instead simply would like to change a Fig19/Pal1 into a pure Fighter and get a capstone? Why should I have to pay the same price as someone who has a Barb20 and wants to become another Barb20 with +2 con?

Using the same cost for those two different kinds of character changes is unlikely to be balanced.

Angelus_dead
10-08-2009, 08:24 PM
Turbine has never in my recollection implemented something like this that's actually detrimental to the highest-end characters and makes new creations superior in the long term to older ones.
Haha, what? That is exactly what the original 32 point builds were!

Thriand
10-08-2009, 08:25 PM
Yeah, I really think there's a design flaw here. I understand they don't want people reincarnating with +3 or 4 int tomes for bonus skill points, but there's a wierd situation here where characters who are -really- established with many +3 tomes will actually be penalized for reincarnating unless its possible to acquire transferrable +3 tomes in this mod's loot tables. This change benefits new level 20s far more than the ones people have been raiding with for 2 years, because a full set of +3 tomes is way more beneficial than 4 extra build tomes in terms of total statistics.

Turbine has never in my recollection implemented something like this that's actually detrimental to the highest-end characters and makes new creations superior in the long term to older ones.

I like all of this, but I really think that inherent bonuses need to turn into ml-appropriate tomes in your inventory. I should not want to reincarnate Jaerlach less than my other chars becacuse he has 6 +3 tomes and the others don't.

I agree with you I'll be losing a lot here with you, but I'm still glad this is being implemented. +4 tomes are out now and my +3s were starting to look kind of shoddy, either way I'll be glad to graciously accept my 4 extra build points and considerable boost to size (thanks extenze!) and start farming out my new tomes and favor over again.

My biggest complaint is that I pulled a +3 cha tome on my sorcerer YESTERDAY on his shroud but I took the cleansing item I didn't need instead because I thought saving up another cha tome on a character who had already eaten it was silly, but that is not really turbines fault.

transtemporal
10-08-2009, 08:27 PM
thus character 1 first True Reincarnate (+1, +2 +3 +4 str tome, +1 +2 + 3 +4 dex tome.... ), character 2 (+1, +2 +3 +4 str tome, +1 +2 + 3 +4 dex tome.... ) ... etc... eventually to character 13 (+1, +2 +3 +4 str tome, +1 +2 + 3 +4 dex tome.... ).

I think I'm more likely to skip the +1/+2 entirely for the first two passes and just eat a +2 set on the 3rd and final pass. Hell, I might even skip the +2 set on the final pass entirely and just go straight to +3/+4. By the time I've run that toon through 20th level two times, I'm bound to have the key +3's I need and maybe even a few +4's. Why muck around?

I know those toons won't be entirely uber and optimal while levelling, but: 1) I don't have so many +2's that I can afford to trash two sets for each toon; and 2) my guys level fast enough that I can probably live with not being completely optimal. Basically as long as they have greensteels waiting for 'em, they'll be sweet.

Junts
10-08-2009, 08:29 PM
I agree with you I'll be losing a lot here with you, but I'm still glad this is being implemented. +4 tomes are out now and my +3s were starting to look kind of shoddy, either way I'll be glad to graciously accept my 4 extra build points and considerable boost to size (thanks extenze!) and start farming out my new tomes and favor over again.

My biggest complaint is that I pulled a +3 cha tome on my sorcerer YESTERDAY on his shroud but I took the cleansing item I didn't need instead because I thought saving up another cha tome on a character who had already eaten it was silly, but that is not really turbines fault.


I just don't see why they have any vested interest in cutting such a strong dividing line between characters with ~130ish raid completions (generally what it takes to get all your important bound loot) and ~300-500 completions, eg, the ones people loved and kept playing when they didn't need raidloot anymore.

Why take away all the benefits of having raiding past your first 20th, more or less?

Junts
10-08-2009, 08:30 PM
Haha, what? That is exactly what the original 32 point builds were!

Fair point; that being before my time, I forgot about that.

Can you think of another instance?

Also worth side-noting: after 2 years of *****ing, they finally gave people a way to make 28s into 32s. So why do the same thing again?

Riggs
10-08-2009, 08:32 PM
I played that game before - the reincarnation seems close to identical.

Which led to power creep, and 'we dont want you unless you have lots of reincarnations'. 2 more points and 1 extra feat per reinc adds up fast on feat and stat starved builds.

Sure - right NOW the cap is 2 reinc....until powergamers whine after a year of "only getting it twice" and Turbine relents and adds a higher limit.

Is it a good idea for old 28 point builds? Yes and no - anyone still running around with 28 point builds and a lot of time also probably has 6 +3 tomes - and will lose those 12 points to gain 2 points.

People ran raids dozens, and even 100+ times to get those +3 tomes - Turbine can easily just go into it as say "ok this guy has +3 inherant bonuses, so he gets in his inventory six +3 tomes with min levels he/she can eat at the appropriate level. Or if some that apready have eaten +4s from the new raid - they get those they can eat at whatever the min level is.

And as said - make the size thing optional....seriously - wf are already too tall, and falling off coal chamber because your tall is super annoing, along with crud hanging from the roof like tapestries and spiderwebs blocking your 'behind the shoulder' camera view.

If you want to 'flag' someone visually as a reincarnation char - just add it to their character sheet/bio/examine screen somewhere that people can look for it - but its not 'in your face im more uber than you'.

And lastly....hello eternal grind.

muffinlad
10-08-2009, 08:35 PM
As for the respec, I suspect that they will either allow tomes to carry over (with new ML) with the TR option (unlikely) or adjust Greater Reincarnation to include a level respec as well, since it is currently lacking anyway (more likely).

*fingers crossed*

I think the True Reinc is fine as it is imagined by the Devs (give up the tomes, but you get to take your saved stuff and 2 additional build points)...but agree entirely that Greater Res should allow a level-class respec to take away that "Semi-******** aftertaste" offered by True Reinc.

Being able to do away with that accidental sorc level taken by Noob Wizard who thought it would let him cast all his spells faster (and didn't read or ask questions) is solved with the same elegant solution offered to the guy who built rogue, but would be better served with Monk, but didn't have the choice at the time...if they simply say you may respec/reset/reincar/toss out a window a multi-class choice and "re-imagine" those levels.

muffinlad

krud
10-08-2009, 08:37 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.
umm.. will they lose their extra backpack slots when they reincarnate with zero favor? Better make sure you clear any important gear out of those last two backpack slots!

Not sure I'm all that enthusiastic about the true reincarnate. I don't think the extra build points or feats are really necessary.

Oh, and about the increase in size thing...can we elect to have only certain parts get bigger? (for those that only want to match their e-peen with their character)

Dirac
10-08-2009, 08:38 PM
Physics governs everything? No, wrong. Not in the worlds of D&D it doesn't.

This is true.



There are entire professional organizations dedicated to the practical violation of the laws of physics.

On a completely unrelated note, what might these be?

Evisle
10-08-2009, 08:46 PM
I assume since favor is going to be wiped out raid timers will be as well when someone True Reincarnates?

Veras Divania

SableShadow
10-08-2009, 08:50 PM
A size change would actually be one thing keeping me *away* from doing a True. I spend a heck of a lot of time agonizing on getting an appearance just so...forced size change is right up there with "Time to kick some axe" as far as ideas go. ;)

transtemporal
10-08-2009, 08:52 PM
Wow. I seem to have gotten involved in a land war in Asia.

Never get involved in a land war in Asia! :D

Kistilan
10-08-2009, 08:54 PM
A size change would actually be one thing keeping me *away* from doing a True. I spend a heck of a lot of time agonizing on getting an appearance just so...forced size change is right up there with "Time to kick some axe" as far as ideas go. ;)

I think it's to let everyone know who the BMOC is.

Which of course may lead to "Hey glad you're at the Rai.... wait a second. You're short!"

*You have been removed from Party.

"Man, what a noob."

Although, if we MUST have this, it should have been something like an ion stone floating around your head, a pet dragon perching when you sit still, a special light/glow/aura around the person or similar feature.

Instead... we get Dude, You Enlarged Your Car. Or Honey, Where's My Halfing?

SableShadow
10-08-2009, 08:55 PM
I think it's to let everyone know who the BMOC is.


Sure sure. Understanding it doesn't make it any brighter an idea. ;)

Kistilan
10-08-2009, 08:57 PM
Sure sure. Understanding it doesn't make it any brighter an idea. ;)

*L*

/qft -- See History of the Worlds (or History of Man)

FWIW, I think it should be an effect, not a size-change (unless we're adding some new emotes where size counts -- in which case sign me up!)

And if they were effects -- toggle on/off on UI much like le helm.

Enochroot
10-08-2009, 08:59 PM
I think it's to let everyone know who the BMOC is.

Which of course may lead to "Hey glad you're at the Rai.... wait a second. You're short!"

*You have been removed from Party.

"Man, what a noob."

Although, if we MUST have this, it should have been something like an ion stone floating around your head, a pet dragon perching when you sit still, a special light/glow/aura around the person or similar feature.

Instead... we get Dude, You Enlarged Your Car. Or Honey, Where's My Halfing?


For the record - even though I got what I wanted - I got more than I wanted - I am wary of size/stat increase reincarnation - but I am going to abuse the hell out of it.


And I DON'T see what you're saying happening - 28point builds aren't kicked from raids NOW - it's the build and the player that matters, 28 versus 36 generally doesn't even matter THAT much on most builds. Now, the extra feat ... don't know where that came from or how it will work, but dizamn.

Riggs
10-08-2009, 09:01 PM
True Reincarnation characters keep their equipment (even bound to character equipment), get taller, and increase in base stat points. They do not retain favor, XP (you start over again at level 1), or bonuses from previously used ("eaten") tomes.

Problem with this....kinda.

Bank space and inventory slots.

If you have a bunch of bound items, or even just normal items - are you going to have to completely clear out your inventory or suddenly lose stuff when you lose 2 bank and inventory slots from losing the favor?

How will the game decide which items to destroy, drop on the ground, vanish - and maybe lose raid items if they are randonly chosen?