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View Full Version : Subterane should scale



Angelus_dead
10-06-2009, 02:20 PM
The Subterrane should scale difficulty according to the size of the group. It is an explorer zone, not a raid, regardless of 12 players being allowed at once. (The allowed size is 12 because it leads to raids, not that it is one). This is quite obvious.

Currently it does not serve the function of explorer zones: something a person can do when he doesn't have the time or inclination for a real quest. The kinds of players who need to use explorer zones aren't usually powerful enough to take on Subterrane. It's senseless for every other explorer to scale, but not that one.

Zenako
10-06-2009, 02:25 PM
Would have some serious issues with the scaling however. Would make runs for the Raiments, et al even more trivial. No other explorer zone drops rare named items like that one does to my knowledge.

Impaqt
10-06-2009, 02:30 PM
I agree that he sub should scale... the Garamol encounter would need to be adjusted somehow though.

WeaselKing
10-06-2009, 02:31 PM
Would have some serious issues with the scaling however. Would make runs for the Raiments, et al even more trivial. No other explorer zone drops rare named items like that one does to my knowledge.

If a character can't solo the sub as is, I doubt they could solo Garumol(sp?), so I don't think that would be an issue.

ArkoHighStar
10-06-2009, 02:34 PM
Would have some serious issues with the scaling however. Would make runs for the Raiments, et al even more trivial. No other explorer zone drops rare named items like that one does to my knowledge.

the desert

Angelus_dead
10-06-2009, 02:34 PM
Would have some serious issues with the scaling however. Would make runs for the Raiments, et al even more trivial.
For the best chance of getting that item, you're going to want a full group anyway.

Also, I never said that the scaling would have to be set so that it takes 10+ players to reach the current mob power. Maybe groups of 5-7 face the current challenge, and it goes UP for 8-12... whatever.


No other explorer zone drops rare named items like that one does to my knowledge.
The Thirsty One.

Angelus_dead
10-06-2009, 02:36 PM
As for Garamol:
There's no good reason he even has to remain in the explorer zone. Look at the Threnal giant caves for an example of small dungeon quests stuck into an explorer area.

Why, it would even allow people to select Garamol elite, increasing their gameplay options.

ArkoHighStar
10-06-2009, 02:39 PM
As for Garamol:
There's no good reason he even has to remain in the explorer zone. Look at the Threnal giant caves for an example of small dungeon quests stuck into an explorer area.

Why, it would even allow people to select Garamol elite, increasing their gameplay options.

that is a good idea and one more raid to add to the area (technically), although then comes the question do you establish a timer or make it like TS.

Zenako
10-06-2009, 02:41 PM
the desert

Duh!.. given the number of bloodstone runs I have done...sigh....

However, there is a slight difference. Desert item drops only happen with those Rare encounters.

With Gargomol, he drops all sorts of rare things from a whole slew of quests, with among the most sought after being the Raiments. Given that it is SUBSTIANLLY easier and quicker for Garg runs (usually popping off a half dozen at a crack when you have a group doing it) than Ghosts, making it even easier would be risking making those items even easier to get. (and no, I am not protecting turf since I don't have any yet...and making it easier would actually make my life easier.)

tinyelvis
10-06-2009, 02:45 PM
Currently it does not serve the function of explorer zones: something a person can do when he doesn't have the time or inclination for a real quest. The kinds of players who need to use explorer zones aren't usually powerful enough to take on Subterrane.


Though not a cakewalk, the sub is a pretty easy area to run thru once you learn it. There are lots of short cuts to common sights. Plenty of shrines to heal. Take some time to head down there on your own. Granted it might take learning some new survival techniques. But one man can go anywhere in the sub relatively easy.

Do this, when waiting to get into shroud, or other 12 man raid. Head into the sub and explore or hunt for treasure. Eventually, you will gain the experience to travel anywhere down there on your own.

If anything this area is too easy for a 5 K area (you hit that so fast exploring). They should raise to 7.5k at the very least or higher.

Angelus_dead
10-06-2009, 02:54 PM
Though not a cakewalk, the sub is a pretty easy area to run thru once you learn it. There are lots of short cuts to common sights. Plenty of shrines to heal. Take some time to head down there on your own. Granted it might take learning some new survival techniques. But one man can go anywhere in the sub relatively easy.
Ok, let me repeat myself more explicitly. I didn't say it very clearly so as to avoid insulting a swath of players, but here you go:

For the bad players who can't handle quests and raids and need an easier place to get loot, the Subterrane does not fufill that purpose. Not only is Subterrane more dangerous than the explorer zones of Reaver's Refuge and Shavarath, it's actually harder than soloing some level 19 quests.

sirgog
10-06-2009, 04:58 PM
Although Garamol doesn't scale, he's often easier with a small group, where there a fewer people to trip repeated reverse gravity spells.

Lithic
10-06-2009, 05:31 PM
Allowing hirelings into the subterrane would be enough to offset the lack of scaling IMO, though both together would be best.

transtemporal
10-06-2009, 05:54 PM
Would have some serious issues with the scaling however. Would make runs for the Raiments, et al even more trivial. No other explorer zone drops rare named items like that one does to my knowledge.

No more trivial than bloodstone, firestorm greave runs. And icy raiments are at least as rare as firestorm greaves, maybe more. I'm on 60-something runs on my sorc and I've never seen them drop for anyone. Thats an average of 8-9 people per run, 500 odd pulls from that chest, nothing. I don't think we're in any danger of being innudated with icy raiments.

Bringing the sub into line with the other explorer areas is a reasonable idea A_D. Funny, I just had a friend who is fairly new to the high level game ask me why the sub is so hard, when he can solo the battlefield fairly easily, lol.

tinyelvis
10-06-2009, 08:21 PM
There are a couple of chest very easy to get to in the subter. Certainly easier then say, solo fighting the Soami Garden Beholder for poor players. These include,

1. Spider chest.
2. Ghost chest.
3. Garamol if you take some short cuts and skip the mob killing on the way.

I think thats pretty good. Plus any player can go invisible and sneak around much of the sub. Certainly by 14th to 20th level a player should be able to at least handle 2 of the 3 of these. Garamol is definitely easier for them to handle than the undead beholder. After gaining a taste of the sub, some of these poor players may then improve some of their playing skills and be tempted to venture deeper. In all honesty though, the loot in the sub is not as good as you get in reavers refuge.

sirgog
10-06-2009, 11:00 PM
There are a couple of chest very easy to get to in the subter. Certainly easier then say, solo fighting the Soami Garden Beholder for poor players. These include,

1. Spider chest.
2. Ghost chest.
3. Garamol if you take some short cuts and skip the mob killing on the way.

I think thats pretty good. Plus any player can go invisible and sneak around much of the sub. Certainly by 14th to 20th level a player should be able to at least handle 2 of the 3 of these. Garamol is definitely easier for them to handle than the undead beholder. After gaining a taste of the sub, some of these poor players may then improve some of their playing skills and be tempted to venture deeper. In all honesty though, the loot in the sub is not as good as you get in reavers refuge.

I thought both used the level 17 loot tables.

That said, I support the OP's idea.

FluffyCalico
10-06-2009, 11:02 PM
The Subterrane should scale difficulty according to the size of the group. It is an explorer zone, not a raid, .

Negative it drops named loot. Name some other "explorer area" that drops lots of named loot. IE its the raid zone for the skelly icy raid :)

sirgog
10-07-2009, 12:08 AM
Negative it drops named loot. Name some other "explorer area" that drops lots of named loot. IE its the raid zone for the skelly icy raid :)

The Orchard drops named loot in an indirect way (through Tapestries). Gianthold drops Relics, and all the explorer areas drop Dragon Gems for Refuge flagging.

tinyelvis
10-07-2009, 12:13 AM
Negative it drops named loot. Name some other "explorer area" that drops lots of named loot. IE its the raid zone for the skelly icy raid :)

Well, the named loot is only dropped in skelly chest and then its low level stuff outside the Icy. In reavers refuge you get more +2 tome drops. For me that means better loot. I suppose the battlefield may be the place to go now though. Plus if you solo reavers refuge you can hit rares super quick. Sorry, off topic again.

FluffyCalico
10-07-2009, 12:14 AM
The Orchard drops named loot in an indirect way (through Tapestries). Gianthold drops Relics, and all the explorer areas drop Dragon Gems for Refuge flagging.

None of those count lol. But based on your logic I would say that perhaps the desert slayer should not scale due to bloodstone and greeves.

poonce
10-07-2009, 12:19 AM
More like the Sub should Drop Scales!! I did atleast 20 Icy runs today and i had posted on the LFG That i would give a +2 No Ml Con Tome, about 6 dropped and i didnt get mine until run 19.

Btw, How much would the max you guys would pay for the Icy Rainments, I paid 130K pp and a Lrg Scale, I know its a VERY lot, but keep in mind how frustrated i was to see everyone come and go with their new outfit and me offering and begging befor they looted it lol, I just wanted to put myself out of my mysery, The guy that gave it to me said No trades as soon as he saw it so i really had to push hard to get it.

Niclos
10-07-2009, 12:39 AM
The Subterrane should scale difficulty according to the size of the group. It is an explorer zone, not a raid, regardless of 12 players being allowed at once. (The allowed size is 12 because it leads to raids, not that it is one). This is quite obvious.

Currently it does not serve the function of explorer zones: something a person can do when he doesn't have the time or inclination for a real quest. The kinds of players who need to use explorer zones aren't usually powerful enough to take on Subterrane. It's senseless for every other explorer to scale, but not that one.
Id agree with that. Also not being able to use rez cakes can make a failed explorer attempt.