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MagicianBlade
10-04-2009, 08:22 AM
Please put cleric turn effective level on the character sheet (perhaps just for people who have that ability .. and while we're talking about that we can remove Ki from the char sheet for those who are not Monkees..)

Junts
10-04-2009, 08:25 AM
Lets not, it might give people the idea they should try to turn undead.

ghettoGenius
10-04-2009, 08:47 AM
Personally I think turn undead needs to be revisited. Clerics and pallys should get a bump to their turning check and effective level when they get the turn undead feat. Something similar to the heroic durability we all get at lvl 1. The mechanics and infrastructure is there with sacred items, enhancements, feats, items, etc. They just need that turning check bumped to something that actually means something. Maybe even a sliding scale that benefits the char as they level up (a pure turning class would eventually get a bigger bonus than a multi-class similar to how sorcs get bigger sp bumps from power items if they stay pure).

Now before some of you cry "over-powered", think about this. Compare it to say wailing banshee, where a caster can kill many different types or racial creatures, turn undead is restricted to undead racial types which severely limits its effectiveness but helps clerics/pallys shine in an environment they were meant for. Additionally, casters can draw from a very deep spell point pool where clerics/pallys are again restricted to turn undead attempts determined by a costly charisma modifier. Not to mention that the chance to actually destroy the undead is based on the assumption the turner has TWICE the effective level of the turned creature which is basically an impossibility in any level appropriate quest. Further indication that not only should the turning check be boosted but effective level as well.

As it stands now even if you had a sacred item, seek eternal rest, full enhancement line, improved turning feat and Aegis of the Flame you still wont turn jack in a level appropriate quest, and thats just wrong. So yeah lets work on fixing this please. The only reason it hasnt been looked into is because not many people care. I seem to remember in both PnP and MMOs past where when the partys backs were against the wall, it was turn undead that swung the tide of battle. It would be nice to see that again.

Hendrik
10-04-2009, 09:21 AM
Personally I think turn undead needs to be revisited. Clerics and pallys should get a bump to their turning check and effective level when they get the turn undead feat. Something similar to the heroic durability we all get at lvl 1. The mechanics and infrastructure is there with sacred items, enhancements, feats, items, etc. They just need that turning check bumped to something that actually means something. Maybe even a sliding scale that benefits the char as they level up (a pure turning class would eventually get a bigger bonus than a multi-class similar to how sorcs get bigger sp bumps from power items if they stay pure).

Now before some of you cry "over-powered", think about this. Compare it to say wailing banshee, where a caster can kill many different types or racial creatures, turn undead is restricted to undead racial types which severely limits its effectiveness but helps clerics/pallys shine in an environment they were meant for. Additionally, casters can draw from a very deep spell point pool where clerics/pallys are again restricted to turn undead attempts determined by a costly charisma modifier. Not to mention that the chance to actually destroy the undead is based on the assumption the turner has TWICE the effective level of the turned creature which is basically an impossibility in any level appropriate quest. Further indication that not only should the turning check be boosted but effective level as well.

As it stands now even if you had a sacred item, seek eternal rest, full enhancement line, improved turning feat and Aegis of the Flame you still wont turn jack in a level appropriate quest, and thats just wrong. So yeah lets work on fixing this please. The only reason it hasnt been looked into is because not many people care. I seem to remember in both PnP and MMOs past where when the partys backs were against the wall, it was turn undead that swung the tide of battle. It would be nice to see that again.

Aww, come now, you know that's incorrect. Yes, you may not outright destroy them, but you do make them cower from a successful Turn in a level appropriate quest.

MagicianBlade
10-04-2009, 09:30 AM
That depends on the undead, I suppose.

I don't know the mechanics on how D&D 3.5 Turn should work, but here's what I've got:

Level 12 cleric
CHA 16
+2 to turn level sacred item
+4 to turn level seek eternal rest (people tell me that sacred items + seek eternal rest stack together, but i can't check that w/o a stat visible)
+4 to turn level with feats/enhancements

level 12 + 2 +4 +4 = level 22 turn ..

In a level 7 quest, my Turn will barely make anything run away, let alone destroy ..
When I was running around in level 2 and 3 dungeons, as a level 1-3, I was able to destroy large groups of undead at a time. Since then, it has only become weaker.

Lorz
10-04-2009, 09:39 AM
Mathmatically you cannot turn in this game anything higher than CR7's


Welcome to DDO-EU...this is not new...it has always been like this regarding turning....make them Divine Vitality and at least get some use out of them.

MagicianBlade
10-04-2009, 01:13 PM
ok, i found the Turn docs. Apparently, with a 16 CHA, if I'm turning at effective level of 20 ..

I get 1d20+4 for my Turn Check. So, I should be able to turn anywhere from Turn Level - 2 to Turn Level + 4 Hit Dice undeads within range. I should be able to turn anything of 18 to 24 hit dice.

I'm guessing taht this is pretty much utterly failing, because things in DDO have about 180 TIMES the number of hit dice as they do in a regular game?

Angelus_dead
10-05-2009, 11:35 AM
I should be able to turn anything of 18 to 24 hit dice.

I'm guessing taht this is pretty much utterly failing, because things in DDO have about 180 TIMES the number of hit dice as they do in a regular game?
Well, no. Many undead just have high hit dice overall, often 2 HD per level of the quest.

By the D&D rules, a CR 20 skeleton would have like 38 HD.

MagicianBlade
10-05-2009, 03:11 PM
i was exaggerating, but things do have ridiculous amounts of hit points in this game. I'm thinking some tweaks to the system to deviate from the original rules might be a good idea - I see people in D&D forums all over the net saying that Turn is utterly useless anyway..

Favis
10-21-2009, 01:43 PM
Please put cleric turn effective level on the character sheet (perhaps just for people who have that ability .. and while we're talking about that we can remove Ki from the char sheet for those who are not Monkees..)
would be nice