PDA

View Full Version : Bow rate of fire still nerfed as of mod 9, patch 2



Maximus1
10-02-2009, 01:34 PM
After Patch 2, ranged capstone+haste is still only 72 (compared with 77 between mod 9 and patch 1).

Ranged was originally nerfed during beta testing for the game when melee complained that ranged were killing everything in the dungeons.

That was long ago and during levels where mobs had few HP's.
At this point, mobs in upper level dungeons have tons of HP's and there is little danger in ranged "destroying" dungeons yet DDO developers still pay homage to that initial nerf and insist on keeping rate of fire painfully low.

They respond immediately when melee complain about slow movement as evidenced by the speed of patch 2.

Why are you guys so adamant on keeping bow rate of fire so low?

Even haste, capstone, and alacrity don't give the full benefit but only half (if it says 25% it gives only 12.5% etc).

Can you please look into fixing ranged next? That can only make DDO a far richer game and definitely more fun for those who struggle with ranged right now (especially new players who would be in for a shock if they so specialize).

IMO, bow rate of fire should be somewhere between single weapon and twf number of attacks.

Also multishot at 20 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown is ridiculous.
Just make it a stance with -4 to hit and 1d4 arrows per shot instead of exactly 4 arrows per shot. Or tapered (20 seconds 4 arrows, next 20 seconds 3 arrows, last 20 seconds 2 arrows, then the rest of the 1 minute cooldown).

My two cents.

One more thing, when I see a tank like a barbarian stand toe-to-toe with the highest level boss mobs in the dungeons, the last thing I think to myself is "Hmmm, barbarians should be nerfed." Instead I'm impressed.
Why can't you finally allow those who prefer ranged to finally have some fun in the game?

GlassCannon
10-02-2009, 01:39 PM
Why can't you finally allow those who prefer ranged to finally have some fun in the game?

Don't you know?

Half the Dev Team is Chaotic Evil! They laugh and cackle in their dark dungeon, conjuring new ways to torment players.

The other half are Aasimar, but are forced to work with these nefarious individuals, coding these sadistic plots into the game.

/silly off

That aside, I'd seriously like to see Ranged implemented PROPERLY. I'm tired of wondering why my Ranger 10 shoots like she's never seen a bow before in her life, despite being a Deepwood Sniper.

Maximus1
10-02-2009, 02:29 PM
Yup, I agree.

The tragedy is that fixing ranged would only make DDO richer, more complex strategy-wise, and more fun in every respect.

It would be nice to see legitimate ranged specced characters making up a good part of the party and actually contributing and being valued rather than disdained as they are now.

Just waiting for all the "oh, that would make ranged overpowered" posts or the "ranged don't take damage" posts....

Cianos_Fanas
10-02-2009, 05:37 PM
/signed

Autolycus
10-02-2009, 06:47 PM
/signed +rep

drac317
10-02-2009, 07:03 PM
Don't you know?

Half the Dev Team is Chaotic Evil! They laugh and cackle in their dark dungeon, conjuring new ways to torment players.

The other half are Aasimar, but are forced to work with these nefarious individuals, coding these sadistic plots into the game.

/silly off

That aside, I'd seriously like to see Ranged implemented PROPERLY. I'm tired of wondering why my Ranger 10 shoots like she's never seen a bow before in her life, despite being a Deepwood Sniper.

get it right man there chaotic evil dwarven tempest

Angelus_dead
10-02-2009, 07:04 PM
The tragedy is that fixing ranged would only make DDO richer, more complex strategy-wise, and more fun in every respect.

It would be nice to see legitimate ranged specced characters making up a good part of the party and actually contributing and being valued rather than disdained as they are now.
Both of those are true, as long as it is remembered that "fixing ranged" is something different from "increasing ranged DPS".

Borror0
10-02-2009, 07:12 PM
Ranged was originally nerfed during beta testing for the game when melee complained that ranged were killing everything in the dungeons.
Obviously. At the time, the game was much more about resource management than it is now. We did not have a bazillion Heal scrolls or stacks of mnemonic potions. As a result, being able to not take damage while killing stuff relatively quickly was superior because it greatly increased your chances to finish a dungeon.

Now, resource management is a total joke (sadly) and therefore the higher your DPs is, the better so any advantage that ranged combat has to offer disappeared.

They respond immediately when melee complain about slow movement as evidenced by the speed of patch 2.
Well, yeah. The complaints were massive and clear. I doubtful they even heard about the fact that ranged was also harmed.

Why are you guys so adamant on keeping bow rate of fire so low?
As Codog already explained (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1389939&postcount=150) over a year ago, ranged combat created entities which affect the server performances. If they put the rate of fire too high, it could lead to some serious lag problems and would also mean that feats or enhancements increasing ranged rate of attack could no longer be created as they've reached the maximum capacity of the client/server.

Beside technical limitations, there is the problem that melee and ranged DPS don't stack and addressing this problem is not that easy.

That is, if ranged character deal less DPS than melee characters then ranged is in every way inferior to melee: additional melee characters won't drain the healer's resource more than a ranged character but will deal more DPS. If ranged characters deal more DPS than melee characters, then ranged characters are superior to melee characters as they can deal more damage from afar and from safety.

If you want to achieve balance, that problem has to be addressed first.

Also multishot at 20 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown is ridiculous.
Just make it a stance with -4 to hit and 1d4 arrows per shot instead of exactly 4 arrows per shot. Or tapered (20 seconds 4 arrows, next 20 seconds 3 arrows, last 20 seconds 2 arrows, then the rest of the 1 minute cooldown).
Multiplying ranged DPS by 2.5 is obviously an overpowered "solution".

One more thing, when I see a tank like a barbarian stand toe-to-toe with the highest level boss mobs in the dungeons, the last thing I think to myself is "Hmmm, barbarians should be nerfed." Instead I'm impressed.
Personally, I think that the mob does not deal enough damage. Otherwise, why else bring a S&B user if the barbarian can hold aggro without problem?

But, that's getting off topic.

The tragedy is that fixing ranged would only make DDO richer, more complex strategy-wise, and more fun in every respect.

It would be nice to see legitimate ranged specced characters making up a good part of the party and actually contributing and being valued rather than disdained as they are now.
QFT

salmag
10-02-2009, 07:25 PM
After Patch 2, ranged capstone+haste is still only 72 (compared with 77 between mod 9 and patch 1).

Ranged was originally nerfed during beta testing for the game when melee complained that ranged were killing everything in the dungeons.

That was long ago and during levels where mobs had few HP's.
At this point, mobs in upper level dungeons have tons of HP's and there is little danger in ranged "destroying" dungeons yet DDO developers still pay homage to that initial nerf and insist on keeping rate of fire painfully low.

They respond immediately when melee complain about slow movement as evidenced by the speed of patch 2.

Why are you guys so adamant on keeping bow rate of fire so low?

Even haste, capstone, and alacrity don't give the full benefit but only half (if it says 25% it gives only 12.5% etc).

Can you please look into fixing ranged next? That can only make DDO a far richer game and definitely more fun for those who struggle with ranged right now (especially new players who would be in for a shock if they so specialize).

IMO, bow rate of fire should be somewhere between single weapon and twf number of attacks.

Also multishot at 20 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown is ridiculous.
Just make it a stance with -4 to hit and 1d4 arrows per shot instead of exactly 4 arrows per shot. Or tapered (20 seconds 4 arrows, next 20 seconds 3 arrows, last 20 seconds 2 arrows, then the rest of the 1 minute cooldown).

My two cents.

One more thing, when I see a tank like a barbarian stand toe-to-toe with the highest level boss mobs in the dungeons, the last thing I think to myself is "Hmmm, barbarians should be nerfed." Instead I'm impressed.
Why can't you finally allow those who prefer ranged to finally have some fun in the game?

There have been numerous requests for the devs to fix ranged, along with many, many, many ideas of how to improve it. This includes fixing the Manyshot timer, increase rate of fire, make Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot toggles where only one of them can be active at once, make Manyshot a stance with more penalties to hit depending on how many arrows are fired, etc. etc. etc.

People have been complaining about this since DDO Beta, not DDO:EU Beta. The devs choose to ignore them all (Codog being an exception, but we haven't heard from him since, conspiracy anyone). However, melee fighters complain AFTER a "supposed" fix to melee combat (which IMO wasn't needed), and the devs instantly jump on and try to fix the fix (especially since it wasn't broke in the first place). This truly boggles the mind.

Even more crazy is the fact that there are class enhancements that are SPECIFIC for range.

Please devs, please, address the range combat issue.

oh, and +1 rep to you OP.

Maximus1
10-02-2009, 08:44 PM
Thanks everyone for the comments.

What the exact rate of fire should be, I do not know. I can only give my opinion. I do know from my actual experience, however, that it is currently too low to use as a permanent combat style except for those 20 seconds of multishot every two minutes.

The correct balance can only be ascertained by Turbine through testing many different rates of fire using their test servers and play testers (preferably in a party setting with other classes).

As far as safety is concerned, it's much more complicated than just being able to deal damage "from afar and from safety." This is an argument used by those who have never specialized in ranged and taken it all the way to level cap.

Some mobs are more dangerous to range then melee (e.g. beholders). You have to develop play skills like strafing+turning (which is a good thing) and even then it's almost impossible not to take damage in confined dungeon spaces (most of the quests in the game) and from teleporting enemies in those confined dungeon spaces (devils, orthons, bosses like sulu who teleport behind you).

Imagine a new player coming on and seeing all the ranged feats and prestige enhancements and deciding to specialize in one of those. That player will either give up in frustration at around lvl 14 or 15 (after Gianthold when paralyze isn't as useful) and either leave the game or reroll a different playstyle. Why even tempt people with those feats/PrE's if there is no intention of allowing them to stand on their own?

This is something that should concern Turbine.

Borror0
10-02-2009, 09:05 PM
What the exact rate of fire should be, I do not know. I can only give my opinion. I do know from my actual experience, however, that it is currently too low to use as a permanent combat style except for those 20 seconds of multishot every two minutes.
I would like to see evidence supporting the theory that the rate of fire is too low.

Hint: DPS != rate of fire.

As far as safety is concerned, it's much more complicated than just being able to deal damage "from afar and from safety." This is an argument used by those who have never specialized in ranged and taken it all the way to level cap.
No, it's a perfectly valid argument.

It would be silly, for example, to suggest that ranged is currently balanced because of those reasons. However, the fact that ranged can start to DPS from a distance and the fact that ranged can DPS while the mobs can't damage it are both two important factors to consider when balancing ranged combat.

If a ranged character deal as much DPS as a melee character, are they both equal or is one better?

If both have equal DPS, the ranged character is better because he can start attacking the monster before the melee character can and thus would deal slightly more damage in total. Also, the ranged character can kite if the damage burden suddenly becomes too high while a melee character could not. Finally, if we assume a tank that can hold aggro, a ranged character is far enough to avoid the AoE attacks directed at the tank and, if the ranged character unwillingly steals aggro, the time required for the mob to get to the player may be enough for the tank to regain aggro. A melee character has to stomach AoE attacks directed at the tank and suffers painful retribution if he steals aggro.

For reasons I mentioned before, simply putting ranged lower (but higher than now is not really a solution either.

When the developers will want to improve ranged combat, they will have more to do than simply buffing ranged DPS (which is still an important step).

Some mobs are more dangerous to range then melee (e.g. beholders).
That's simply not true.

Angelus_dead
10-02-2009, 09:13 PM
If a ranged character deal as much DPS as a melee character, are they both equal or is one better?
It's presently demonstrable that ranged is underpowered. And it would be technically simple for the devs to triple ranged ROF, which would cause it to be overpowered.

Someplace between those two extremes is an attack speed that would be balanced, although what that perfect speed is would change depending on the situation. It would be a challenging design problem to create rules that have ranged speed change so that it's usually balanced against melee, but it's a possibility.

However, even if that were achieved and ranged and melee were balanced, that still wouldn't be a good game design. Balance is only one of the criteria for a good game.

abull74
10-02-2009, 09:37 PM
/SIGNED.

I would love to play my ranged ranger more. But she has reached a point where, she is almost useless to a party.

Did the devs make me waste a character slot? Are the devs gonna fix this? I understand that the DPS should not be near that of a melee, but come on!! Should ranged become a burden to high lvl groups? What is the point in all the feats and enhancments?

Come on Devs.....do something about this plz!!! Speed it up, make Manyshot a stance(slow movement rate while in stance), or something. Just.....SOMETHING..plz.


I AM THE FPOON!!!

Orratti
10-02-2009, 09:46 PM
/signed.

Variety in characters should always be encouraged. Sure a party of tempest rangers, favored souls and sorcs maybe with an occasional bard just for haste and buffs or a high ac sword and board intiminadator to keep a mob distracted can tear every quest in the game up but is this really the only kind of characters that we want to play? Not at all.

[edit] The worry of fixing range because it would eliminate melee is understandable however a range build is similar to a caster throwing distance spells. There are tactical ways of decreasing the usefulness of a range build that can be used by enemies to prevent overpowering. On top of that I can tell you that two well equipped ranging rogues could probably already kill a mob before it could be meleed even with a low rate of fire. Ranger class rangers have been repeatedly pointed out as having low dps when built for ranging compared to twf and this is true and why when a post is made about building a ranging ranger many experienced players are adamant about not doing it but going for tempest instead where the true dps is and I very much agree with that now, at least until something is changed. Other classes though have some sucess with ranging as either they are trying to stay out of melee combat for the sake of the party or are doing enough damage with backstab to remain viable dps and at the same time not taking any damage and using resources.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 09:31 AM
IMO rate of fire for bows is the primary problem. Other things may be tweaked here and there or not, but RoF for bows is the crux of the problem and needs to be upped and should have been long ago.

I would much rather have Turbine spend their time on this issue than fixing something that wasn't broken (melee) and then rushing out a fix for the fix when they do break it. All the while ranged remains broke....in fact going down in rate of fire due to the melee fix. (77 shots per minute after mod 9; 72 after patch 1; remains 72 after patch 2).

[edit: the 77 and 72 rates of fire are for capstone+haste]

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 10:39 AM
IMO rate of fire for bows is the primary problem.
Yeah, well, that is incorrect.

The real problems which are preventing bow damage from being increased are:
1. Kiting / perching
2. Melee stacking

whysper
10-03-2009, 10:55 AM
It would be silly, for example, to suggest that ranged is currently balanced because of those reasons. However, the fact that ranged can start to DPS from a distance and the fact that ranged can DPS while the mobs can't damage it are both two important factors to consider when balancing ranged combat.

That is assuming that the enemies cannot damage the player, which simply should not be true.

At any rate, ahaha, I think the best solution would entail:

1. Increasing bow rate of fire (and leaving repeaters alone...);
2. Implementing a maximum range for projectiles (range increments would probably be too cumbersome); and
3. Adding ranged capabilities to encounters* and improving the AI for taking cover.

* This does not mean that every enemy should have a longbow in its back pocket, but that enemy clusters would have a token bowthing with them. In fact, let us add one more item:

4. Remove ranged capabilities from some enemies, and instead add dedicated ranged fighters in their midst.

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 11:00 AM
That is assuming that the enemies cannot damage the player, which simply should not be true.
No, it assumes that the ranged player can be reached by enemies less than 100% of the time that he is reaching them.

A melee guy will be in position to attack enemies less than the ranged guy is, because he'll have an amount of travel to deal with (which will go up if an archer is in his party). Whenever the melee is in range to attack, the monster will be as well. But an archer might or might not be susceptible to enemy attacks at this particular moment, which needs to be kept in mind when designing the balance.

Look at the easy analysis: If my character happens to have identical melee and ranged attack rate, hit chance, and damage per attack, then which one gives me more DPS?


4. Remove ranged capabilities from some enemies, and instead add dedicated ranged fighters in their midst.
Have you tested what happens when an archer PC fights an archer mob? Like a Tielfling ranger on shavarath?

whysper
10-03-2009, 11:03 AM
Have you tested what happens when an archer PC fights an archer mob? Like a Tielfling ranger on shavarath?
This is different from a melee PC versus a melee enemy? What is your experience?

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 11:11 AM
This is different from a melee PC versus a melee enemy?
Uh, yeah.

Melee enemy: Chase and swing
Melee player: Chase and swing

Ranged enemy: Stand and shoot
Ranged player: ...!

whysper
10-03-2009, 11:17 AM
No, it assumes that the ranged player can be reached by enemies less than 100% of the time that he is reaching them.
Which, as I pointed out, should not be the case.

I am not sure you gave due consideration to the combination of effects in my four complimentary suggestions, particularly 2 & 3, but then we might just disagree.

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 11:41 AM
Note that the relevant metric is "monster attack uptime", which means how much of the fight that the monster is able to use his attacks, as opposed to running to get in position or on cooldown or whatever. It could be specified separately for melee and ranged opponents. Player attack uptime is similar, although in hard quests it is heavily influenced by how often the player runs away to get healed.


Which, as I pointed out, should not be the case.
You said that, but did not show how it could happen, and actually made a suggestion with the opposite effect:

4. Remove ranged capabilities from some enemies, and instead add dedicated ranged fighters in their midst.
That means that if the ranged monsters aren't attacking the ranged player (such as aggroing someone else, or being killed), that the monster group has no attack uptime on that player (unless maybe they can run faster than he can kite). That would increase the theoretical safety of a ranged player, especially if he prioritizes attacking non-ranged creatures. As for the other suggestions:


1. Increasing bow rate of fire (and leaving repeaters alone...)
More ROF = more DPS = more likely to kill mobs before they reach me = reduced monster attack uptime.


2. Implementing a maximum range for projectiles (range increments would probably be too cumbersome)
Range increments would be easier than a maximum range, and I'd like to see them added, but mostly just for verisimilitude and D&D fidelity. Unless the range limitation was painfully short then it wouldn't have any impact on regular combat situations.

Note that DDO already includes the possibility of ranged attacks being less accurate past a certain distance, in the form of the Point Blank Shot feat. It should be simple to duplicate that effect to give everyone a penalty when attacking at longer ranges.


3. Adding ranged capabilities to encounters* and improving the AI for taking cover.
Yes, that's something I've been suggesting a while to make kiting and perching less useful. But it doesn't help the immediate consideration, which is whether the monsters have 100% ranged uptime.



I am not sure you gave due consideration to the combination of effects in my four complimentary suggestions
I certainly did.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 11:44 AM
Yeah, well, that is incorrect.

The real problems which are preventing bow damage from being increased are:
1. Kiting / perching
2. Melee stacking

That's your opinion. There'd be no issue with kiting if ranged could actually kill.
The main problem is bow rate of fire.
That needs to be increased and barring that ranged will remain broken.

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 11:55 AM
There'd be no issue with kiting if ranged could actually kill.
I guess that's technically true, but it undermines your suggestion. If ranged combat had hugely overpowered DPS than there'd rarely be a reason to kite. But saying that is no way you convince the devs to give it to you.

whysper
10-03-2009, 12:02 PM
Range increments would be easier than a maximum range, and I'd like to see them added, but mostly just for verisimilitude and D&D fidelity. Unless the range limitation was painfully short then it wouldn't have any impact on regular combat situations.

Note that DDO already includes the possibility of ranged attacks being less accurate past a certain distance, in the form of the Point Blank Shot feat. It should be simple to duplicate that effect to give everyone a penalty when attacking at longer ranges.

It may not be that simple, when looking at the actual implementation level. It is possible it would be, I grant you that, but it will invariably mean more threshold checks, i.e. more computation. Besides, the penalty would be pretty meaningless without AC adjustments.

The limitation does not have to be terribly short, particularly in light of the current ability to shoot at stuff that is too far to actually be visible, or be able to locate the player in return.


I certainly did.
Then we merely disagree.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 12:06 PM
If ranged combat had hugely overpowered DPS than there'd rarely be a reason to kite. But saying that is no way you convince the devs to give it to you.

Which brings me back to a previous point. Neither you nor I have within our means the ability to find the correct RoF. We can only make guesses based on our experience. Actual play with differing RoF's used in varying parties is the only way to knwo for sure and that realm is only available to the developers and the play testers using their test servers. This sort of testing can be done relatively quickly given that they can speed up and slow down the RoF almost at will on these servers.

I'm not asking the devs to give me anything. I'm asking them to fix ranged or at the very least put a warning on the PrE's and feats for ranged warning players (especially new ones) that these are for appearance only (or temporary use during multishot) and not meant to be used as an actual combat style. Then at least new people who are unaware of the problem won't waste their time on a toon that will not find parties at the highest levels (though they'd probably quit or reroll well before that anyway).

[Edit] I do know one thing though. At the present, RoF is painfully low. This is from actual experience. (Again, excluding the 20 seconds of multishot every two minutes).

Talon_Moonshadow
10-03-2009, 12:10 PM
The only fix that needs to be made to ranged combat is to speed it up for EVERYONE!
With Every ranged weapon (maybe not repeaters)

And make the "ten" stars enhancement actually worthwhile.


How much to speed it up, I am not sure about.

But just once I would like to see it sped up too far....just for a little while.
Then you can go nerf it just like evereything else.


From the descriptions of recent combat changes, I read them as speeding up attacks for all melees.....and really speeding up TH weps.
But leaving ranged at it's same old slow rate.

So.....you made it more gimped?!

I am constantly amazed at how you nerf the things in this game that everyone else seems to already think is useless.
(to avoid sidetracking this thread, I'll keep those to myself for now)

For three years, all I've heard is how bad ranged combat is, and you in essence just made it even farther behind melee than it was.
What's with that?!

AngieS
10-03-2009, 12:38 PM
/signed ! Theese changes should be done to bow and bow attacks\rate etc.

Emili
10-03-2009, 01:14 PM
IMO, bow rate of fire should be somewhere between single weapon and twf number of attacks.

... be what reasoning is here? The character can pull an arrow from quiver fire it and hit the target quicker then a melee standing next to the mob can swing a weapon already in it's hand and hit the mob. This really defies illogical thinking in efficiency of motion. Throughout history and to date... hand to hand combat exist for a reason, in close quarters it be humanly quicker to deliver a blow, a stab, a jab then to reload aim and fire. Even today in with modern firearms - automatic, semi-automatic - armies be trained to deal with hand to hand combat for when the foe be upon them in face... why is that?

ROA - ROF be indeed one of the same not only directly proportional to DPS - it is part of the DPS equation. What is DPS (damage per second)? Simplified stated is nothing more then:

((((ROA or ROF) per minute * (weapon damage + bonus damage))/60 seconds)

... so let us examine two characters... a SnB dwarf fighter with 34 str, vs an elf ranger with 26 str... just base on character pre bloodstones rage etc...

Dwarf damage = Daxe (1d10 + 12str mod + 4 feats + 2 enhancements + 5 PA) = 28.5

Elf damage = Longbow (1d8 + 8str mod + 2 enhancements + 8 favored enemy + 3 rams) = 25.5

the difference is 3 points per attack on average ...

If we use an abitrary number such as 80 (ROA - ROF)

(72 * 28.5)/60 = 34.2 vs (72 * 25.5)/60 = 30.6

increasing the ROF on the ranged character by 10 per minute yeilds 34.85 ... thus out does dps of the dwarf. Extreme but even consider this an ROF 76 (just 4 more) yields 32.3. This gets extremely closer with weapon attributes, item attributes such as seeker, etc... closing gaps.

The reason there were a sea of tempest ... is that ROA, 10% increase turned table of possible dps so drastic...

The ranger takes less risk - no melee damages - less chance for spell or ranged damage, people complained about melee twitching techniques ... ranged combat be the goddess of twitch combat... we kite, we side-step as achers shoot back, we run out of aoe spell areas all while still shooting arrows... melee have no choice when they move from aoe spells a mob in the midst they cannot attack.

Mind your way, as your proposal if too overboard lays sway possibilities of antiquating SnB as an effective character choice. An hair too far and you launch a sea of deepwoods.

PS: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194963&highlight=Ranged+shroud

One only need look at the power of a sea of ranged toons to realize the potential... my understanding (and this be pre mod 9 with an very active harry in part four) level 16's all ranged in shroud was this was a healess part four, and nearly a healess part five.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 01:38 PM
The ranger takes less risk - no melee damages - ....

Do you have a 20 lvl ranged specced character?
If not, I'm not sure how you can be an expert at this topic.

Also, don't you promote THF twitching attacks and consider it a "skill" rather than an exploit?

If so, how could you have any say about keeping RoF for bows so low?

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 05:02 PM
From some of the responses, you'd think that ranged were already overpowered and the build of choice...I'm not seeing a bunch of ranged characters filling up parties at the high end.
I do however see barbs, 18ranger/something, sorcs, bards, clerics,...etc.

Let's bring RoF up to par before piling in more negatives on top of ranged.

Again, at the high levels, not a whole lot of ranged specced characters....and that's due to the RoF IMO (from my experience).

Ranged is a form of DPS and can't be viable without RoF commensurate with at least that of sword and board (again my opinion).

They could also have been a form of crowd control were Arcane Archers given paralyze arrows with a high enough DC to be viable in end game.

Borror0
10-03-2009, 05:08 PM
Which, as I pointed out, should not be the case.
You say that but your suggestion #4 goes directly against that goal.

Additionally, uptime is only one metric. There is also the size of the attack or, if you prefer, the ranged DPS of the mob. If the mob's DPS drops by switching to ranged, then ranged characters are still safer and the argument still holds. Even if you would create a game where all mobs have melee and ranged attacks, unless ranged DPS is equal or superior to melee DPS, then ranged would still be safer.

Which brings me back to a previous point. Neither you nor I have within our means the ability to find the correct RoF.
As Angelud_dead pointed out, balance is not the only concern.

Another point that he alluded to, and should probably have put more emphasis on, is that there is a very, very thin line to balance given the current implementation of ranged combat. There is probably a point where you could magically arrive at a good ranged DPS but that is a very difficult challenge when melee and ranged DPs stacks too poorly.

krud
10-03-2009, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Maximus1 http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites/forums.ddo.com/images/buttons/orange/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2456442#post2456442)
They respond immediately when melee complain about slow movement as evidenced by the speed of patch 2.

Well, yeah. The complaints were massive and clear. I doubtful they even heard about the fact that ranged was also harmed.
Of course their not going to hear massive and clear complaints about ranged combat, because hardly anybody plays them since they've been gimped for so long.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 05:22 PM
Of course their not going to hear massive and clear complaints about ranged combat, because hardly anybody plays them since they've been gimped for so long.

I hear ya.

They think nobody plays it because nobody likes that style; a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy...noone likes it cuz it's so ineffectual compared to any sort of melee.

I rolled up a pure ranger when I heard about the capstone. Now I've switched to Tempest and just use ranged during multishot. It's a waste though cuz i could have gotten much more by going 18 ranger and 2 monk or 1monk/1rogue. The benefit you gain from such a high AC far outweighs ranged in terms of not taking damage.

But that's not the style of play i wanted...

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 05:50 PM
Even if you would create a game where all mobs have melee and ranged attacks, unless ranged DPS is equal or superior to melee DPS, then ranged would still be safer.
Some games include the concept of dead zones, where a ranged characters DPS may fall or stop entirely inside a certain short distance. That could be used to achieve ranged combat without necessarily more uptime than melee, but I doubt any of the suggestions have been to add it.

Emili
10-03-2009, 06:13 PM
Do you have a 20 lvl ranged specced character?
If not, I'm not sure how you can be an expert at this topic.

Also, don't you promote THF twitching attacks and consider it a "skill" rather than an exploit?

If so, how could you have any say about keeping RoF for bows so low?

Possibly you should look and ask around... There be a little deepswood elf named Ambyre in my stable... and 'fore last mod Misbehaven was also totally ranged spec'd.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 06:15 PM
Possibly you should look and ask around... There be a little elf named Ambyre in my stable... and 'fore last mod Misbehaven was also totally ranged spec'd.


I used to be ranged specced too... ;)

Emili
10-03-2009, 06:29 PM
I used to be ranged specced too... ;)
Be just tellin' Ambyre - who was capped untill mod is still deepwoods... and misbehaven was but being a mixed rogue and on the lower end of the dex, was running thin to stay such - just too many enhancements to wade thru. She still keep ic ranged however among the ilk.

Be no word of a lie that Ambyre could solo much content alone ... although time be a factor compared to arcane... At lvl 12 I have no qualms about taking solo DQ ... would not say same of melee... In reaver a ranged ranger eats up more trash then arcane, a melee nothing but bait in comparison... a ranged spec ranger can and does hold it's own... ad many and becomes a powerhouse. Peoples speculation of lower dps actually is a reflection on party makeup... a bad ranger grabs agro and moves it away from melee dps builds. Naughty thing to do, however with all ranged players dps stays constant.

If on Khyber speak to riftbow, torro or keithan ... I think you'd realize soon that it's the tactical approach which leads people to speculate loss of dps on the rangers part without them really realizing it.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 06:52 PM
Be just tellin' Ambyre - who was capped untill mod is still deepwoods... and misbehaven was but being a mixed rogue and on the lower end of the dex, was running thin to stay such - just too many enhancements to wade thru. She still keep ic ranged however among the ilk.

Be no word of a lie that Ambyre could solo much content alone ... although time be a factor compared to arcane... At lvl 12 I have no qualms about taking solo DQ ... would not say same of melee... In reaver a ranged ranger eats up more trash then arcane, a melee nothing but bait in comparison... a ranged spec ranger can and does hold it's own... ad many and becomes a powerhouse. Peoples speculation of lower dps actually is a reflection on party makeup... a bad ranger grabs agro and moves it away from melee dps builds. Naughty thing to do, however with all ranged players dps stays constant.

If on Khyber speak to riftbow, torro or keithan ... I think you'd realize soon that it's the tactical approach which leads people to speculate loss of dps on the rangers part without them really realizing it.



It's great for solo but as you said takes far more time.
Sure, the DQ cannot be meleed. That's one situation that requires magic or ranged.

There is a lot "right" about ranged. Improved Precise Shot (especially with a para bow in lower levels) is just fun as hell.
You can also save multishot for large crowd moments and use it at those times...very effective along with IPS.

I still think RoF can go up a lot without hurting balance. As was said above, balance is not everything and does not by itself make a great game. Some things are just fun. Speed in a game is fun and can pull you in (put you in a zone if you will). That should be the goal of any good game.

I still enjoy ranged immensely even if I can't contribute as much in a party situation as when i go TWF.

Zuldar
10-03-2009, 06:58 PM
Solution's simple.

Increased ranged attack speed by 20% (excluding repeaters) and decrease ranged threat generation by 50%. Won't be perfect, but it'll be far better then what we have now. It can be reevaluated afterward.

Borror0
10-03-2009, 07:47 PM
Increased ranged attack speed by 20% (excluding repeaters) and decrease ranged threat generation by 50%.
The problem with that is the frustration that it will generate (that's a common characteristic of all change that suggest a DPS boost but this one makes it worse by increasing the chances of a ranged character to gain aggro).

If the ranger character gains aggro, the mob will move to it... and the melee characters will have to chase it.

Zuldar
10-03-2009, 08:01 PM
The problem with that is the frustration that it will generate (that's a common characteristic of all change that suggest a DPS boost but this one makes it worse by increasing the chances of a ranged character to gain aggro).

If the ranger character gains aggro, the mob will move to it... and the melee characters will have to chase it.

Hence why I said decrease ranged aggro by 50%, to make it less likely they'll take aggro. Can they still possibly get aggro, sure. But that happens anyway from time to time.

As far as I see that's player error, if they work as a team that shouldn't be an issue in the first place. When you have 6 people soloing a dungeon at the same time it's not going to go as smoothly as a group that puts thought into what they're going to do.

If all we continue to do is argue and debate about it nothing will change, let's make a small change now and see how it goes.

Borror0
10-03-2009, 08:05 PM
Hence why I said decrease ranged aggro by 50%
Sorry. I read increase for some reason.

As far as I see that's player error, if they work as a team that shouldn't be an issue in the first place.
Obviously but, in this case, the error of one member (the ranged character) leads to the frustration of the rest of the group.

It's bound to make ranged combat unpopular to the masses.

Turial
10-03-2009, 08:20 PM
Some games include the concept of dead zones, where a ranged characters DPS may fall or stop entirely inside a certain short distance. That could be used to achieve ranged combat without necessarily more uptime than melee, but I doubt any of the suggestions have been to add it.

I've spent some time thinking on this topic because of experience with something similar when I played wow. I just have not suggested it because it interacts poorly with some things currently in game.

Having something like a dead zone could work to eliminate kiting if the 0-DPS range is such that players who try to kite can not keep the mob outside of the 0-DPS range. One would hope that the point blank range was extended out a little further if this was done though. That make sense?

Letrii
10-03-2009, 08:21 PM
If you have an issue with ranged damage hitting mob without taking melee damage, what about casters?

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 08:23 PM
Having something like a dead zone could work to eliminate kiting
I think there are simpler ways to fix ranged combat in DDO. (And a dead zone is quite contrary to the D&D rules, except for polearms)

In particular, to reduce kiting (but not perching), modify Rapid Shot so that the bonus is doubled if you are standing still...

Turial
10-03-2009, 08:27 PM
If you have an issue with ranged damage hitting mob without taking melee damage, what about casters?

Casters typically kill things in an acceptable amount of time. That is why there is less ire towards them.

You ever been in a group with a caster that steals aggro and then runs away like their robes are on fire? That's why some people don't like ranged combat users. Or at least that's what I think when such things happen.

Turial
10-03-2009, 08:31 PM
I think there are simpler ways to fix ranged combat in DDO. (And a dead zone is quite contrary to the D&D rules, except for polearms)

In particular, to reduce kiting (but not perching), modify Rapid Shot so that the bonus is doubled if you are standing still...

I am a fan of things that eliminate or reduce the perceived need to kite mobs.

At one point I though maybe a process that sped up the ranged rate of attack for each attach sequence in which you weren't moving such that the incentive to stay in place was greater the longer you were there. Similar to how attack bonuses where changed to go upwards on melee at the beginning to prevent people from breaking every attack chain.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 08:35 PM
Kiting can be used to an advantage like in elite Yugolith quests to spread out the mobs instead of concentrating them in one spot where everyone can take massive damage.

The main advantage in ranging is moving and shooting not standing still...to me anything that forces you to stand there would just kill any fun in ranged.

A good archer would try to turn mobs in circles so that melee can get them and if they find themselves dragging a high HP mob, put on a shield, block and wait for the others to catch up.

In any case, to slap further negatives on top of ranged before even trying a fix sounds wierd to me...it's like an enormous fear as though current elite Yugolith groups accept only ranged characters or something which is obviously not the case.

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 08:42 PM
If you have an issue with ranged damage hitting mob without taking melee damage, what about casters?
The total damage output of casters is limited by spellpoints, while that of archers is limited by time. An archer has to be attacking anytime he can see a monster if he wants to achieve his best possible damage contribution throughout a quest... but if a caster does that, he'll run out of mana and sacrifice opportunities to do more important damage later.

Therefore, casters aren't attacking constantly like archers do. They save up for a big blast, then stop. This means they don't pull aggro for minor amounts of damage; instead of eternally plinking away, they're either doing zero damage or cause so much pain that the monster is dying.

mrirritation
10-03-2009, 08:48 PM
Load of useless dirvel. Can't have what they won't give. Been waiting for three years for ranged improvements, an what do we get tempst ranger. Yeah. So quit whining about something that isn't going to happen.:p

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 09:08 PM
Load of useless dirvel. Can't have what they won't give. Been waiting for three years for ranged improvements, an what do we get tempst ranger. Yeah. So quit whining about something that isn't going to happen.:p

Yup...and all the Tempest offshoots: 18 ranger/2blah or 18 ranger/1monk/1rogue....

Borror0
10-03-2009, 09:20 PM
The total damage output of casters is limited by spellpoints, while that of archers is limited by time.
Exactly. Another point is that spellcasters have crowd control to deal with the aggro they generate.

Turial
10-03-2009, 09:25 PM
Exactly. Another point is that spellcasters have crowd control to deal with the aggro they generate.

Rangers have CC too....oh wait our CC is based on a STR check and a Reflex save...and no one has a wisdom high enough to make them stick. Even "Dude with way to many spell points" doesn't have a wisdom score to make them stick.

Borror0
10-03-2009, 09:28 PM
Even "sir with way to many spell points."
I'm pretty sure I said "dude" instead of "sir".

Turial
10-03-2009, 09:38 PM
I'm pretty sure I said "dude" instead of "sir".

Better?

Jay203
10-03-2009, 09:56 PM
Uh, yeah.

Melee enemy: Chase and swing
Melee player: Chase and swing

Ranged enemy: Stand and shoot
Ranged player: ...!

lol
angelus, gotta disagree with you there
you'd be surprise to see how many dumb players i've seen standing still while shooting at the enemy archer :D:D:D:D:D

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 10:53 PM
Rangers have CC too....oh wait our CC is based on a STR check and a Reflex save...and no one has a wisdom high enough to make them stick. Even "Dude with way to many spell points" doesn't have a wisdom score to make them stick.
I have at various times suggested:
* A way to use Trip with ranged attacks (known as the Pin feat in D&D)
* A way to use Hamstring with ranged attacks
* A version of Entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm)
* An AP that allows using the average of wisdom and dex mods for ranger spell DCs.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 11:08 PM
I have at various times suggested:
* A way to use Trip with ranged attacks (known as the Pin feat in D&D)
* A way to use Hamstring with ranged attacks
* A version of Entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm)


Now those could go a long way to prevent the kiting issue. Along with items like Shimmering Arrowhead.

Orratti
10-03-2009, 11:09 PM
Well at this point experienced range builders know better than to kite a mob. In every type character from battle cleric to ranger to sorc to melee etc it is the player that makes the build bad not the idea. Its no more fun trying to run down a mob chasing a sorc casting scorching rays and running for his life than a ranger doing the same thing. You know when you are playing with an experienced and capable player that this kiting doesn't happen as you yourself if you were to stoop to building a range build would never do this. Experienced range builders are completely with you in this as they have said in posts over and over again not to do exactly that. But if eliminating kiting is necessary to further archery simply make it impossible to reload unless you are standing still if even for a second or two that will either force the archer to stop and reload giving everyone time to catch up and recover the aggro or force them to drop into melee or shieldblock which they should have done in the first place. I prefer shieldblock giving the melees the flanking bonus.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 11:19 PM
Well at this point experienced range builders know better than to kite a mob. In every type character from battle cleric to ranger to sorc to melee etc it is the player that makes the build bad not the idea. Its no more fun trying to run down a mob chasing a sorc casting scorching rays and running for his life than a ranger doing the same thing. You know when you are playing with an experienced and capable player that this kiting doesn't happen as you yourself if you were to stoop to building a range build would never do this. Experienced range builders are completely with you in this as they have said in posts over and over again not to do exactly that.

Rep for you. Yeah this kiting thing sounds to me like the latest excuse....first it was "they're destroying dungeons" then it was "they don't take damage so it's overpowered." Now it's the "they'll kite the mob forever."

Still I like the idea of Pin which is in PnP and gives ranged some crowd control. Also the devs did create the Shimmering Arrowhead which Cripples mobs slowing their chase speed upon a critical shot (a la the melee version).

Angelus_dead
10-03-2009, 11:21 PM
Well at this point experienced range builders know better than to kite a mob.
Ok, sure. But if you're not kiting, then one of two things is happening:
1. You have aggro, and the mob is clubbing on you while you shoot back from zero range. You'd do more damage with melee weapons at this distance.
2. You don't have aggro, and the mob is clubbing on someone else while you shoot from range. You'd do more damage walking up behind him and using melee weapons.

Maximus1
10-03-2009, 11:29 PM
Ok, sure. But if you're not kiting, then one of two things is happening:
1. You have aggro, and the mob is clubbing on you while you shoot back from zero range. You'd do more damage with melee weapons at this distance.
2. You don't have aggro, and the mob is clubbing on someone else while you shoot from range. You'd do more damage walking up behind him and using melee weapons.

Or
3. You're using Shimmering Arrowhead and have enough RoF to get a critical hit in...mob is chasing but at half speed allowing melee to safely chop him down.

Even without that, drop into shield block mode allowing melee to get sneak attacks and flanking bonuses.

Orratti
10-03-2009, 11:33 PM
Ok 1. I was going to say I never shoot a mob at point blank range but it happens sometimes because of lag and my weapons don't switch fast enough, still I don't run but either start swinging melee or drop into shieldblock.

2. most of my range builds are rogues and when someone else has aggro I finish the enemys off from just out of melee reach. As I said a range Ranger isn't as strong as a tempest as you well know and is why I don't make range rangers. A rogue however isn't completely useless as a range character and having less hps than a melee makes more sense to play ranged. Yes I do drop into melee sometimes and it can be better damage but really if you are getting backstab you are doing very good damage either way.

Oh in answering I forgot the post I was going to write that I would be very happy with ROF matching the Drow in Searing Heights.

Orratti
10-04-2009, 02:01 AM
ok the most significant problem with increasing the effectiveness of range attacks has been pointed out. You can deal damage without taking any and increasing the rate of fire WILL only make it over powered. That is absolute truth. Alot of things have been done in this game to keep melee builds effective. Casters have been nerfed probably more than once on behalf of melee characters. I completely agree with doing this because as I said character variety is one thing in the game that should be preserved. Some high lvl bosses are almost immune to spell damage or have so many hit points that it takes both melee dps and casters in order to take them down. I have put some decent amount of thought into how to increase the effectiveness and usefulness of range builds while not making them overpowered and even while working on this thread have come up with one or two more. Most of the changes are simply changes in monster AI and a couple of new spells that are already in one players handbook or another.

I have been thinking for a few weeks that monster AIs are too simplistic to start off with. This is a problem in the game all around because it doesn't provide enough challenge for a well organized party. Zergers no matter how I may love running with them are symptomatic of this very issue. If the quests were truly challenging this type of play would be impossible. Enemy scouts should have sprint boost and be able to open doors in order to warn other enemies that you are coming. Those enemies being forwarned should buff themselves for battle. Enemies that cannot climb ladders now should be able to. Spiders should be able to climb walls, of course you will have to remove the range poison and web attacks for this but melee poison and webs could be added. These would provide excellent opportunities for range builds. Effective blocks for range builds are the shield spell. Im not sure if originally it blocked all missile attacks but it could provide a % of cover. Protection from normal missiles at low levels and protection from magical missiles at higher levels. At all levels you could add what in effect would be a concentration check for rangers being hit by missile fire interrupting their attacks much like a spell interruption making enemy rangers very dangerous to party rangers and unlikely to be attacked esp if you add an inability to reload while moving unless picking up the shot on the run feat. I'm not saying these are the answers but they are a way for it to be done where ROF or range dps can be increased without overpowering and at the same time giving range builds a niche to fill in the party. I also realize that these changes could very well make quests alot more difficult and there will be much complaining about it mostly from people who don't want to be challenged in combat. I personally would rather have much more challenging combat than more and more difficult puzzles to solve.

Letrii
10-04-2009, 02:14 AM
No, leave shield spell alone. There are spells to protect against missiles in PnP, they could add to those to game.

enarus
10-04-2009, 03:10 AM
So how do we get the DDO Devs to make range a usefull part of raids/Parties for that matter without making them "Oped", I want to play a ranged playstyle because i have been in PnP since i was introduced to the game when i was 9. But i dont want to solo thats why i came to DDO because its a team focused game.

Why is it that they disregard the 3.5 manyshot rules and make it one of the Best and worst things of a ranger. Why is it that a ranger can not do as much damage as a Mellee class. Why is it that a lvl 1 Barb with 18 str and power attack can out dps my lvl 6 ranger. Why is it that no one wants a DWS Or a AA in their raid. Why is it that You dont choose a combat style at lvl 2 as a ranger(Btw this would be very good and people should look into this). Why cant a pure Ranged focused ranger enjoy the game to the fullest and be usefull/helpfull.

MagicianBlade
10-04-2009, 03:31 AM
It appears that there is still significant breakage in the whole ranged system - I've seen this in other games, as well. I've got a dwarf cleric that carries around a crossbow for the rare occasions for when he needs to attack things at long er range than his damage spells will hit. If I hold down Attack, it will attack twice for every 3 attack/reload animations. If I don't hold down attack, it will animate twice for every 1 attack.

The issue seems to be that the client and server don't necessarily agree on exactly wether it's time for it to fire again. Solution: Client should always send to server a "i'm trying to fire" msg. Server should ignore it if it's not time to fire again, or respond with a "yes, play fire animation" .. in which case, the client should immediatly start playing a new fire animation, resetting from if there was one already in progress. If you can reasonably determine that you are always playing the animation properly, then you can have the client ignore sending the "i'm trying to fire" message through about half of the animation (to accomodate for network latency)

Problem with auto-attack: Implement auto-attack on server end, rather than client end. Or at the very least, have server tell client exactly how long between attacks is allowed when auto-attack is turned on. And then have the client start trying a few millisec before that timer is up. (to allow for network latency)

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 03:34 AM
So how do we get the DDO Devs to make range a usefull part of raids/Parties for that matter without making them "Oped", I want to play a ranged playstyle because i have been in PnP since i was introduced to the game when i was 9. But i dont want to solo thats why i came to DDO because its a team focused game.

Why is it that they disregard the 3.5 manyshot rules and make it one of the Best and worst things of a ranger. Why is it that a ranger can not do as much damage as a Mellee class. Why is it that a lvl 1 Barb with 18 str and power attack can out dps my lvl 6 ranger. Why is it that no one wants a DWS Or a AA in their raid. Why is it that You dont choose a combat style at lvl 2 as a ranger(Btw this would be very good and people should look into this). Why cant a pure Ranged focused ranger enjoy the game to the fullest and be usefull/helpfull.

All excellent questions.

Someone once said three years ago (since Turbine refuses to follow D&D rules and put ranged up there where it belongs) that it was fine...but don't call it DDO. Call it something else and allow someone else to finally put up a D&D online RPG that follows D&D rules and allows ranged to be on par with melee.

I agree.

Orratti
10-04-2009, 03:43 AM
So how do we get the DDO Devs to make range a usefull part of raids/Parties for that matter without making them "Oped", I want to play a ranged playstyle because i have been in PnP since i was introduced to the game when i was 9. But i dont want to solo thats why i came to DDO because its a team focused game.

Why is it that they disregard the 3.5 manyshot rules and make it one of the Best and worst things of a ranger. Why is it that a ranger can not do as much damage as a Mellee class. Why is it that a lvl 1 Barb with 18 str and power attack can out dps my lvl 6 ranger. Why is it that no one wants a DWS Or a AA in their raid. Why is it that You dont choose a combat style at lvl 2 as a ranger(Btw this would be very good and people should look into this). Why cant a pure Ranged focused ranger enjoy the game to the fullest and be usefull/helpfull.

Well I thought I covered the how pretty well. Showing how it could be done. Why being the question now and the reason being that if ranged attacks were as good as melee they would be BETTER than melee basically eliminating melee builds as useful party members. This should not ever happen. A party of range players, casters and cleric/favored souls could wipe out all mobs without ever taking any damage or coming closer than spell range to the enemies. While this sounds like and would be great fun it removes the challenge from the game and eliminates melee builds as viable player characters. This happened once before with arcane casters wherein the dps of melee builds was completely dwarfed by the firepower that high lvl wizards and sorcs could dish out making it quicker to run quests with only casters and clerics and not waste time with puny melee damage. In an effort to fix this the developers nerfed the caster damage output adding balance to the game and really irritating caster players some so much that they quit the game, at least for a while. Even so this was better for all and we are discussing this thread in order to attempt to recreate this spectacular event.

enarus
10-04-2009, 03:52 AM
Can My DWS Join your group in a abbot run =D




And Wait so Arcane cannot deal as much as mellee and Range cant deal as much as mellee... Is mellee oped?!?!?!?!

Orratti
10-04-2009, 03:55 AM
lol I don't lead raids, not the leader type but if I did I would not bar you for being ranged.

uhgungawa
10-04-2009, 03:58 AM
There would need to be a few things added. RoF increase of 50% would actually be HUGE. But the problem is that by itself would lead to other problems. How many Ranged people would be welcomed into groups if the known outcome is " PEW PEW PEW.... KITE KITE KITE ".

So go ahead and increase it 50%, but and a feat like Subtle Shot to reduce agro. Let melee's go in, start swinging, then PEW PEW PEW.

Just a thought

enarus
10-04-2009, 03:58 AM
lol I don't lead raids, not the leader type but if I did I would not bar you for being ranged.

Sadly the leader type would due the ranged Uselessness in Raids/Parties

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 04:03 AM
There would need to be a few things added. RoF increase of 50% would actually be HUGE. But the problem is that by itself would lead to other problems. How many Ranged people would be welcomed into groups if the known outcome is " PEW PEW PEW.... KITE KITE KITE ".

So go ahead and increase it 50%, but and a feat like Subtle Shot to reduce agro. Let melee's go in, start swinging, then PEW PEW PEW.

Just a thought

And ranged people are welcomed into groups now?

uhgungawa
10-04-2009, 04:05 AM
And ranged people are welcomed into groups now?

Only if well known by the group LOL ;)

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 04:06 AM
Only if well known by the group LOL ;)

Exactly ;)

Borror0
10-04-2009, 04:12 AM
Only if well known by the group LOL ;)
That's false. Bribing your way in can also work.

uhgungawa
10-04-2009, 04:25 AM
The thing to keep in mind is that unlike most MMOs, mob move around A LOT. There is Agro shifting, and many other things other MMO's do not share to the level of DDO. So this leave the problem of how do you bring ranged up to par with melee, and yet not pi$$ off the rest of the people.

The biggest part of it is in the player. Allowing the melee's to start and grab agro is the first issue. Alot do, but unfortunately most don't. This along is the largest factor for ranged getting a bad rap. I will admit that I will not chase down a mob that is being pulled around due to the ranged guy getting trigger happy, nor will I heal mr. trigger happy on my cleric.

That said, a ranged person that plays it right can be a big help. Takes little damage, can pull the mobs you want, ect.

Find the right balance of RoF, agro management, and player skill and ranged could be a top shelf class

uhgungawa
10-04-2009, 04:26 AM
That's false. Bribing your way in can also work.

Shhhh, don't give out secrets ;)

Borror0
10-04-2009, 04:39 AM
The biggest part of it is in the player. Allowing the melee's to start and grab agro is the first issue. Alot do, but unfortunately most don't.
Well, yeah. They have a bow and the mob is far. Who would not be tempted to use a bow there?

Of course, it's a bad idea when you know the game's mechanics but that's a problem because it's counterintuitive: in real life, that would be a good idea.

uhgungawa
10-04-2009, 04:44 AM
Well, yeah. They have a bow and the mob is far. Who would not be tempted to use a bow there?

Of course, it's a bad idea when you know the game's mechanics but that's a problem because it's counterintuitive: in real life, that would be a good idea.

Forum rule #129: No using words with more than 10 letters in it.

You went over by 6, TO THE CORNER WITH YOU

Borror0
10-04-2009, 05:20 AM
Forum rule #129: No using words with more than 10 letters in it.

You went over by 6, TO THE CORNER WITH YOU
Do you suffer from hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia?

whysper
10-04-2009, 06:27 AM
If the ranger character gains aggro, the mob will move to it... and the melee characters will have to chase it.

Why cannot "the others" be expected to learn anything new? I mean, despite me not having had any issues as it is since on the rare occasions I have taken out the bow, I have made a point of explaining to the group that if I kite something, do not run after it, fight the other creatures and that if it is the last thing alive, I will bring it back over to them.

Works like a charm. It is as if melee players are *gasp* trainable.

Borror0
10-04-2009, 06:49 AM
Why cannot "the others" be expected to learn anything new?
Because, even if they learn, it's still not fun. It's bearable for trash mobs but just annoying for named ones.

whysper
10-04-2009, 07:17 AM
Because, even if they learn, it's still not fun. It's bearable for trash mobs but just annoying for named ones.
I do not understand the reasoning. Melee can freely fight whatever other enemies are about, with one or more taken out of the fight, until they are free to deal with the kitee.

Maybe you just play with sucky kiters?

uhgungawa
10-04-2009, 07:22 AM
Why cannot "the others" be expected to learn anything new? I mean, despite me not having had any issues as it is since on the rare occasions I have taken out the bow, I have made a point of explaining to the group that if I kite something, do not run after it, fight the other creatures and that if it is the last thing alive, I will bring it back over to them.

Works like a charm. It is as if melee players are *gasp* trainable.
This would work fine if it was the "PLANNED" action. But this is usually not the case. Mr. Triggerhappy tends to be running all over the place going OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD, I'M GONNA DIE!!!!

There is deffinently times that pull and kite is a good strat (and there are a lot of them), but not when it's "I see, I shoot".

Like I said I'm all for a 50% increase in RoF, and a Subtle Shot type feat, but it still all falls on the player. Just like the melee that runs ahead and goes splat again and again. I would like to see it so people get into groups on your merits. Ranged or melee, play it well no probs. play like an untrainable dope, SEE-YA. :cool:

Borror0
10-04-2009, 07:40 AM
Melee can freely fight whatever other enemies are about, with one or more taken out of the fight, until they are free to deal with the kitee.
"It's bearable for trash mobs but just annoying for named ones."

Angelus_dead
10-04-2009, 07:47 AM
I have made a point of explaining to the group that if I kite something, do not run after it, fight the other creatures and that if it is the last thing alive, I will bring it back over to them.
Note that if you kiting that single mob was helpful, then it would be more helpful if you also kited all but one of the other mobs. That's known as kite tanking (which has a prominent place in TOD), and it is occasionally useful in DDO... but not frequently enough for you to really legitimately call that a tactic.

For examples, kite tanking is helpful when the enemies are overpowered to melee:
1. in Enter the Kobold, 1 guy shoots the Living Spells + Elementals and runs away to the rest of the quest, leaving everyone else to fight the bosses.
2. Suppose you were doing ROSP elite with level 10 characters, the spiral doors had been removed, and you were prohibited from using Firewall or single pulling. In that case, kite tanking the Blackguards and Champions would be the best tactic, as it avoids more than one player being meleed at a time.


Works like a charm. It is as if melee players are *gasp* trainable.
Eh, no. It does not "work like a charm"; you are being less effective than if you meleed with them.

It can be said they are being trained, in the sense that they're learning to tolerate unproductive behaviors. Because DDO is an easy game and warm bodies are helpful for many purposes, people find it often more useful to humor someone's bad tactics rather than upsetting him by pointing them out.

The fact that people don't complain to you is not evident that they approve.

whysper
10-04-2009, 07:50 AM
"It's bearable for trash mobs but just annoying for named ones."
It is (often) a good way to take the named out of the fight until the trash is dead; but as I mentioned earlier, when melee is free, the kiter will pull the remaining enemy/enemies back to the melee cluster.

That is, a good kiter. There are sucky examples of every class and playstyle available. You know how many idiots there are who do not know how to block doorways, or to kill casters first.

Also, a tip to the crowd at large: the fastest way a poor kiter to learn is for you to not run after the kitee. Resurrection is the mother of all learning.

whysper
10-04-2009, 07:52 AM
Eh, no. It does not "work like a charm"; you are being less effective than if you meleed with them.
Think this was a discussion about improving the effectiveness of ranged combat. Might be wrong, though.

Borror0
10-04-2009, 07:55 AM
It is (often) a good way to take the named out of the fight until the trash is dead
You are aware that you are discussing a totally different situation than what you quoted was referencing to?

whysper
10-04-2009, 10:02 AM
You are aware that you are discussing a totally different situation than what you quoted was referencing to?
Nope. Sometimes I think you all have trouble conceptualising things...kiting and actually doing reasonable damage are not mutually exclusive.

Either way, I will leave you two to your unyielding wisdom. :rolleyes:

Borror0
10-04-2009, 11:21 AM
Nope.
Let me explain it to you.

I talk about how a ranged character gaining aggro can lead to frustration (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2459121#post2459121), and you try to explain that sometimes it's a good strategy.

Your comment has nothing to do with my original statement since I am addressing how frustrating it can be and you are addressing how effective it can be. Since it is possible for something to be optimal but tedious, that reasoning is fallacious. Additionally, since we can both agree that there are times where gaining aggro and kiting is non-optimal (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2459769&postcount=84), your argument would not address the situations where kiting is a mistake.

[...] kiting and actually doing reasonable damage are not mutually exclusive.
Obviously, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the post you are replying to (or any of my posts in this thread, actually).

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 11:29 AM
So keeping ranged nerfed seems to boil down to two arguments:
1) They'll kite stuff and that's just not fun...
2) They don't take melee damage and so it's overpowered.

Kiting depends on the player not the build. To nerf an entire combat style for a few who might commit that cardinal sin seems overblown. And there are solutions: Pin shots (if introduced) or Shimmering Arrowhead, for example...not to mention shield block.

As for melee damage, there are open spaces where you can mitigate that damage by ranging. The vast majority of quests, however, occur in confined dungeon spaces often with mobs that teleport to you making it almost impossible not to take melee damage (and very significant amounts on elite in those quests).

Also, there are toons out there (often Tempest offshoots, 18ranger/2monk or 18ranger/1monk/1blah) that can self buff to about 85 AC and party buff to 94 AC. Even in those tight dungeon spaces where ranged still take damage, they can take far less damage while having a much higher DPS.
So the "no melee damage" argument would seem to apply to those builds even more.

Anway, there seems to be a 50/50 split within the player base on this subject. It's no wonder the devs are reluctant to change it.

Were it changed, I believe it would be great fun for all those who master that art. It would give players another toon type to play with (in addition to healers, melee, and casters), diversifying toon building as well as party makeups.

In the end I believe it would only make DDO a far richer playground. But there seems to be too much fear as though ranged were already overpowered and not nerfed.

Can we at least get back the 5 shots per minute we lost after patch 1?

/whining off

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 11:33 AM
I talk about how a ranged character gaining aggro can lead to frustration and you try to explain that sometimes it's a good strategy.

Your comment has nothing to do with my original statement since I am addressing how frustrating it can be and you are addressing how effective it can be. Since it is possible for something to be optimal but tedious, that reasoning is fallacious.

This happens once a blue moon. So this is a reason to keep an entire combat style nerfed.

In addition, Whysper is correct: There are times when kiting can be useful. Just because you can't imagine that doesn't mean you are right and he is wrong.

whysper
10-04-2009, 11:45 AM
Your comment has nothing to do with my original statement since I am addressing how frustrating it can be and you are addressing how effective it can be.
...
Obviously, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the post you are replying to (or any of my posts in this thread, actually).

Perhaps you would like to lay out your view a bit more straightforwardly. Let me regroup the points I made:

* Kiting can be frustrating, if done poorly. So can everything else.
* Kiting can be effective both when fighting "trash", and when fighting "named."
* Improving ranged efficiency will A) reduce kiting but also B) make kiting more effective when used.

Which of these, if any, do you disagree with? Perhaps we are using different definitions of "kiting"?

Zuldar
10-04-2009, 12:23 PM
Obviously but, in this case, the error of one member (the ranged character) leads to the frustration of the rest of the group.

It's bound to make ranged combat unpopular to the masses.

Ranged combat is already unpopular. It might as well be useful and unpopular.

Borror0
10-04-2009, 12:23 PM
So keeping ranged nerfed seems to boil down to two arguments:
1) They'll kite stuff and that's just not fun...
2) They don't take melee damage and so it's overpowered.
I have seen no one prone status quo on ranged combat nor espouse the two arguments above.

Kiting depends on the player not the build.
"It's okay for the game's design to lead to frustrating situations for as long as it improves my gameplay experience."

As for melee damage, there are open spaces where you can mitigate that damage by ranging. The vast majority of quests, however, occur in confined dungeon spaces often with mobs that teleport to you making it almost impossible not to take melee damage (and very significant amounts on elite in those quests).
Irrelevant. The argument is about how ranged combat can avoid more damage than melee characters can and how that represents an advantage over melee combatant. Unless you want to defend the position that ranged characters take as much or more damage, you would not invalidate the argument.

Also, there are toons out there (often Tempest offshoots, 18ranger/2monk or 18ranger/1monk/1blah) that can self buff to about 85 AC and party buff to 94 AC. Even in those tight dungeon spaces where ranged still take damage, they can take far less damage while having a much higher DPS.
"If X build can be overpowered, why can't ranged be?"

Anway, there seems to be a 50/50 split within the player base on this subject. It's no wonder the devs are reluctant to change it.
No, that's not why the developers are reluctant to change it. I have yet to meet someone who opposes ranged to be improved (there probably are a few, but they are an insignificant minority, and are most likely motivated by selfishness ("Boost me and not others")).

If they are reluctant to improve ranged combat, it's that it's not easy.

The most easy fix would be to improve the base rate of fire but they can't do that without causing or drastically increase the chances of lag because ranged combat creates entities. Then, even if they pass that point, ranged combat does not stack well with melee combat which means that one will necessarily be superior to the other. For both to be balanced, it is required that they address the problem but that's easier said than done.

In the end I believe it would only make DDO a far richer playground.
QFT.

This happens once a blue moon. So this is a reason to keep an entire combat style nerfed.
It happens rarely because ranged DPS is low at the moment. If it is increase, the likelihood of it happening will also increase.

In addition, Whysper is correct: There are times when kiting can be useful. Just because you can't imagine that doesn't mean you are right and he is wrong.
I still don't see how his comment is relevant to anything I said in this thread.

Which of these, if any, do you disagree with? Perhaps we are using different definitions of "kiting"?
None, more or less. (I have disagreements but none that are really relevant.)

Perhaps you would like to lay out your view a bit more straightforwardly.
The problem is that you think I have a problem with kiting. That assumption is wrong.

The problem I have is with ranged gaining aggro. Whether the character decides to kite or not is completely irrelevant to the argument I am making, and so is any discussion about the effectiveness of kiting. If you believe otherwise, you failed to understand my position.

If a ranged character gains aggro, the mob aggro will move to it. If it's a trash mob, that is tolerable since the ranger can most likely kill it on his own. When it's a named mob (especially a raid boss), that's far more problematic because letting the ranger handle it on his own would mean wasting a lot of time since melee characters can deal much more DPS. As a result, the melee character have to mobilize around the mob once again which is frustrating if it happens too often (and it will if ranged DPS is increase to be competitive with melee damage).

If Turbine wants to improve ranged combat, they will also have to provide ways to avoid that from happening too frequently.

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 12:25 PM
The problem I have is with ranged gaining aggro...If Turbine wants to improve ranged combat, they will also have to provide ways to avoid that from happening too frequently.

You mean like Shimmering Arrowhead?

Borror0
10-04-2009, 12:28 PM
You mean like Shimmering Arrowhead?
No.

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 12:37 PM
So keeping ranged nerfed seems to boil down to two arguments:
1) They'll kite stuff and that's just not fun...
2) They don't take melee damage and so it's overpowered.


I have seen no one...espouse the two arguments above.

Because, even if they learn, it's still not fun.

lol

whysper
10-04-2009, 12:40 PM
If a ranged character gains aggro, the mob aggro will move to it. If it's a trash mob, that is tolerable since the ranger can most likely kill it on his own. When it's a named mob (especially a raid boss), that's far more problematic because letting the ranger handle it on his own would mean wasting a lot of time since melee characters can deal much more DPS. As a result, the melee character have to mobilize around the mob once again which is frustrating if it happens too often (and it will if ranged DPS is increase to be competitive with melee damage).

If Turbine wants to improve ranged combat, they will also have to provide ways to avoid that from happening too frequently.

You just gave an example of poor playing. Why on earth would any character - ranged or not - worth their salt draw the enemy somewhere and leave teammates standing LFH? That is when the salt-worthy player will pull the enemy back and, depending on the situation, turtle up for a bit or just run the enemy through the player cluster until aggro falls off. At that point, the player can judiciously continue to shoot or just jump in with melee weapons.

So, maybe you do not have a problem with kiting, but it sure sounds like you have a problem with something. Poor players?

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 12:44 PM
There are two other things that can be done concerning kiting that don't involve keeping ranged nerfed.

1. Add in more crowd control like Shimmering Arrowhead (crippling for ranged). Things like Pin which is similar to trip for ranged.

2. Speed up ranged specced character movement so they don't have to kite but instead run circles around mobs keeping them in place. [Edit: This is currently possible and effective but only for short durations using sprint boost.]

Borror0
10-04-2009, 12:50 PM
You just gave an example of poor playing.
Obviously but an important aspect of game design is to carefully choose the cost for a mistake.

If your arguments is based solely on "you just don't have to make a single mistake", it automatically fails because most players will make mistake unless your game is ridiculously easy. It's important to have an appropriate punishment for failing at a task. In this case, I believe that tedium is inappropriate and that it would be better to punish it otherwise. you are, of course, welcomed to disagree but disagreement does not mean refutation.

Maximus1
10-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Obviously but an important aspect of game design is to carefully choose the cost for a mistake.

If your arguments is based solely on "you just don't have to make a single mistake", it automatically fails because most players will make mistake unless your game is ridiculously easy.

Maybe that makes sense to you. But it makes no sense to me to kill an entire combat style just because someone might do something you find annoying.

Orratti
10-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Ok it looks like I was wrong. Some experienced (I guess) players do still kite mobs. If kiting away from a group was actually an effective tactic then range builds would have lfms up looking exclusively for them. If the mob is too powerful for the group it is unlikely that one person with a bow is going to be able to take it down alone while running backwards and firing. If it is not too powerful then running away with it makes no sense as you can more quickly melee it down yourself or drop into shieldblock to give the fighters a few free hits with flanking bonuses to finish it off. Kiting is a bad idea and it would be better to train the archer not to do it than train melees to accept it. The only exception that I can think of is kiting a mob through the party's blade barriers and firewalls.

Yellfor
10-04-2009, 01:35 PM
Forgive me if this was covered already (AND it Probable has been SOMEWHERE… LOL,) But I think its embarrassing when a ALL ranged NPC (such as the Hunter class NPCs,) can fire 4 or 5 arrows in the space of time it takes my range spec ranger can fire 2. AND the NPCs I’m using for comparison a in a level 1 quest and my ranger is 12 level.

Mind you I’m not talking about damage (get real as my mid level toon kills low level NPCs in 1 or 2 hits,) JUST rate of fire.

NOR am I going to bring up the Multi Shot feat as that feat is just a joke to make folks waste a feat! (OOPS, I guess I did bring it up… ROFL.)

enarus
10-04-2009, 08:22 PM
Cant Turbine just poll people and see how many people want ranged RoF to be improved or have ranged combat improved? Really i mean Ranged should be the next thing they work on, it only makes sense. And i would love to know who thinks Range Combat is usefull in parties as it is right now.

Orratti
10-05-2009, 12:55 AM
How useful any build played in parties is mostly determined by the usefulness and know how of the player pushing the buttons.

enarus
10-05-2009, 01:52 AM
To be honest that is avoiding the question. would you take a DWS or AA into a Party and if so what would you expect from them?

Orratti
10-05-2009, 02:36 AM
I have recently ran with an arcane archer with my latest range rogue and it seemed to me that he was doing very good damage and handling his aggro well. It was a low level quest however. In order for me to answer the question honestly I would need more understanding of what those builds were capable of and the only way I can really get that information first hand is to build one myself. I believe that a mainly wizard arcane archer would probably work very well using crowd control and force/flame arrows of course making sure that the only time he was hitting was a mob that was already aggroed on someone else. I can't even be sure that this build is possible (although I think it is) until I had the interest to try generating one. I did run with a deepwood sniper a while back in Made to Order that was just an awful player at least at that moment and drew aggro before anyone else and didn't have the con to stay alive and died over and over. I certainly wouldn't judge the subclass by this person's playing of it.

My own range builds are a Drow repeater rogue with a few fighter lvls to get shot on the run, a new Drow rgr/rog and my main a melee/range elven cleric multiclass. I took Drow for the rogues for the spell resistance as you get spammed with alot of enchantements when dealing alot of range damage. There are other ways of dealing with this but I like building elves. The Cleric is capable of dealing out alot of damage while staying out of melee at the same time as healing and is also capable of handling herself in melee. I am rebuilding her soon however as I have a better design with the same capabilities and an increase in spell points and spell levels.

The only ranger I have ever build was of a tempest design and I didn't take him very far before I saw ways to improve my build and has been on hold until I get back to him.

To try to answer your question, yes, I would take either build into a party. I don't lead raids but when I do lead a party I usually take it as first come first serve so the first 4 or 5 people to ask for an invite are the ones I take no matter the group mixture. The only exceptions are if I know I need a specific class to make the quest more easily run or it is impossible to run without that class. As to what I expect from the player? About all I expect from a player is to listen if need be and not to be a drain on party resources after that his character is his to play how he likes as long as he is holding his own.

redoubt
10-05-2009, 07:20 AM
Yeah, well, that is incorrect.

The real problems which are preventing bow damage from being increased are:
1. Kiting / perching
2. Melee stacking

My melee FvS was perching the other day in a quest. I knew there would be lots of mobs and that standing in the middle of them would be too much to keep up with. So I picked a spot where I could only see one mob and shot him till dead. Then I lined up on another mob and.... well you get the idea. It was effective, but considerably slower.

Kiting is a big problem with casters as well. Some possible solutions include:
1. Fixing melee so that we can actually hit while chasing. I don't mean to infringe on spring attack either. I'm talking about the collision models that allow mobs to hit on the move, but cause players to miss most of the time even when you have a visual hit in trail.
2. Teach your friends to kite to you instead of away.
3. Teach your friends to wait to shoot if they cannot handle the agro and are unable to do #2 because they are scared! :D

I think I can understand the melee / ranged stacking issue if you look at only dps. (Which it may be hard to argue a different vantage point.) But I think there are a lot of synergies to be had with the styles. For example, we usually don't mind magic missiles and scorching rays and the effects from ranged are also helpful. But yes, I can see this as a potential issue.

Angelus_dead
10-05-2009, 11:11 AM
Kiting is a big problem with casters as well. Some possible solutions include:
1. Fixing melee so that we can actually hit while chasing. I don't mean to infringe on spring attack either. I'm talking about the collision models that allow mobs to hit on the move, but cause players to miss most of the time even when you have a visual hit in trail.
Melee can hit while chasing, but the technique you need to use is lame because the client-server software is broken in terms of predicting position by velocity.

If I'm running behind teammate A and monster B is chasing him, running up to B and attacking from behind just won't hit it, even though I'm faster and my speed is being limited by colliding with the monster. That's because each of my attacks is registered with a certain position, but by the time the server gets the attack request it has already moved the monster away. If I want to hit, I can go around him and get IN FRONT of the monster, going in the same direction with my back to him, and attack in the region that he's moving into.

That problem could be helped if the attack messages were conveyed not only with an absolute position, but also relative to a certain character, so the location of the attack arc can be changed according to how much time passed before the network message was received.

It's hard to predict how much fixing this would change the ranged combat dynamic.


we usually don't mind magic missiles and scorching rays and the effects from ranged are also helpful. But yes, I can see this as a potential issue.
Because those are burst, not sustained.

Timjc86
10-05-2009, 11:23 AM
If I want to hit, I can go around him and get IN FRONT of the monster, going in the same direction with my back to him, and attack in the region that he's moving into.

I find it ironic that melee combat in DDO (in the situations you describe) is very much like ranged combat in a first person shooter - you have to generously lead your target.

Turial
10-05-2009, 03:17 PM
To be honest that is avoiding the question. would you take a DWS or AA into a Party and if so what would you expect from them?

No and yes.

I would expect the same level of skill and balance with ranged combat use that I currently have. Suffice it to say I am normally dissapointed by what I get because some can barely handle weapon transitions and few care about aggro generation and how it affects the flow of the group across a dungeon.

redoubt
10-05-2009, 05:33 PM
Look at the easy analysis: If my character happens to have identical melee and ranged attack rate, hit chance, and damage per attack, then which one gives me more DPS?


Both do the same Damage Per Second.

However, and I believe this to be your point. The ranged character would be attacking longer (because he does not need to run to the mob) and thus do more total damage.

redoubt
10-05-2009, 06:05 PM
"It's okay for the game's design to lead to frustrating situations for as long as it improves my gameplay experience."

YOUR game experience is dependent on not having an archer kite a mob. How is your agrument any different than his?



Irrelevant. The argument is about how ranged combat can avoid more damage than melee characters can and how that represents an advantage over melee combatant. Unless you want to defend the position that ranged characters take as much or more damage, you would not invalidate the argument.

Why do ranged characters suffer an AC penalty when holding a ranged weapon again?



The problem I have is with ranged gaining aggro. Whether the character decides to kite or not is completely irrelevant to the argument I am making, and so is any discussion about the effectiveness of kiting. If you believe otherwise, you failed to understand my position.

If a ranged character gains aggro, the mob aggro will move to it. If it's a trash mob, that is tolerable since the ranger can most likely kill it on his own. When it's a named mob (especially a raid boss), that's far more problematic because letting the ranger handle it on his own would mean wasting a lot of time since melee characters can deal much more DPS. As a result, the melee character have to mobilize around the mob once again which is frustrating if it happens too often (and it will if ranged DPS is increase to be competitive with melee damage).


Again, your issue is that you don't like it when someone causes YOU an inconvience, i.e. chasing a mob. I had a guildie who switch from playing healers to all sorts of characters. For a while I chased his kited mobs, then after telling him to knock it off and stand still enough times I just left him alone with his kited mob. He doesn't do it anymore.

So while I agree with you that chasing a kited mob is annoying as (insert favorite censored word), I do not believe it is a legitmate reason to not improve ranged combat.

Angelus_dead
10-05-2009, 06:19 PM
Both do the same Damage Per Second.
No, they do not. What part of "damage per second" is hard to understand?

Borror0
10-05-2009, 06:33 PM
YOUR game experience is dependent on not having an archer kite a mob. How is your agrument any different than his?
My argument is a little bit more arrogant than that. I believe most players' experience will be harmed by that.

I don't think that "game balance" is an argument compelling enough to introduce a frustrating design into the game.

Why do ranged characters suffer an AC penalty when holding a ranged weapon again?
Considering most DPS characters get hit on a 2, I don't see why you think that's a good argument.

Turial
10-05-2009, 08:49 PM
....
Why do ranged characters suffer an AC penalty when holding a ranged weapon again?
....

Its a odd pnp hold over that people keep thinking exists.

Orratti
10-05-2009, 11:07 PM
Ok I no longer wonder why ranged combat has not been fixed. I see plenty of reasons right here. Too bad, I could have really enjoyed an improvement :(.

enarus
10-06-2009, 12:12 AM
Ok I no longer wonder why ranged combat has not been fixed. I see plenty of reasons right here. Too bad, I could have really enjoyed an improvement :(.

The fact that they Left Ranged Haste at 25% means they are trying to improve it or atleast give it a lil bit of a boost. They also mention that they will be fixing it later when they have a better look at ranged combat. i think that we have givin many many many reasons why ranged should be fixed. and why it is "Broken" per say, Also we have taken a look at both sides. This forum might provide the devs help on, well... doing their job and developing a improved ranged combat.

Orratti
10-06-2009, 02:02 AM
I for one am against ranged haste as it promotes kiting. If you look a few posts back I even had the nerve to suggest that rangers not be able to reload while on the move only gotten around by having shot on the run. This at least would cause you to spend a good deal of time learning other tactics besides kiting before getting shot on the run. I know that firing and moving is very very useful in soloing but is mostly counter productive in groups.

croger1520033
10-06-2009, 02:23 AM
My thoughts on this were make multi-shot a clickie like smite evil is for pally's. Basically pally's get a max of 5 smite evils all of which can be spammed, or used over time. So give rangers or anyone who takes the feat the ability to max out many shot to 4, they can click it 4 times each times gives you 20 secs of many shot, which would max out at 80secs constant, and you make the regen at 1 per 120 secs. What this does is give awesome sustained ranged dps with a cooldown that is about the same but gives us more uses of constant dps if we are careful.

What you think willis?

Orratti
10-06-2009, 04:34 AM
I like manyshot exactly how it is. If I were only trying to improve DPS I would match bow rate of fire as I said before to the exact same speed as the drow hunters in Searing Heights. If you can't remember how quick they are grab up your +1 bow and go in there and have a range dual with them. Even on a capped character I'm betting that they are firing faster than you are. If a fixed ROF increase is too high then I think bow ROF for all characters should improve a little at certain levels gaining speed as you gain practice as it were, the same as you get more melee attacks as level increases. Kiting except in certain situations, the only one that I can think of being pulling aggro into crowd control or through damaging spells, I am personally against. Perching, I am assuming is getting an unreachable high ground from which to fire from, is perfectly natural for an archer both in game and in reality to do and is not only good tactics but also done by enemies. Sometimes I think it is the actual range animation that is limiting ROF. You can't have arrows fly at bullet speeds and sometimes I think the further away an enemy is the slower your fire rate is but that could just be perception.

Turial
10-06-2009, 05:54 AM
I for one am against ranged haste as it promotes kiting. If you look a few posts back I even had the nerve to suggest that rangers not be able to reload while on the move only gotten around by having shot on the run. This at least would cause you to spend a good deal of time learning other tactics besides kiting before getting shot on the run. I know that firing and moving is very very useful in soloing but is mostly counter productive in groups.

This aspect of ranged combat was rightly removed from the game a long time ago. Rather then preventing kiting it made it more likely that ranged combat users would run far away from the group with mobs that they aggroed and then die.

Aesop
10-06-2009, 06:02 AM
A_D had a good suggestion in another thread (not sure if he posted here already)


Split Manyshot in half and (so 2 Monyshot Bursts at 10 sec a piece) with a 1 minute regen.

It might be something to think about.

Or maybe two 15 Second Bursts with 20 sec cooldowns and 90 sec Regen


I'm still thinking that having mobs have Moving Ranged Attacks (instead of stopping to shoot) while approaching would help with balance a little and make kiting a little less attractive... or at least stop the "ranged is never in any danger" belief (despite teleporting Mobs and Quickened Casting Sorceror Mobs


Aesop


Aesop

Turial
10-06-2009, 06:04 AM
For ranged combat to be improved the devs should look at better aggro tools such as the following:

Targets with more AC generate more aggro (likely to be higher damaging TWF rangers or tanks)
Targets with more DR generate more aggro (likely to be AC Monks and high damaging barbarians)
Targets farther away generate less aggro to a degree (spell casters in some cases, and ranged combat users)

Obviously it will take a lot of play to balance these factors. In many cases we are taking a 10-20% change in how much aggro individual attacks will generate. Add to it that some classes gain additional special aggro generation and reduction abilities and the combat system gains a nice level of complexity.

I have always thought that primary ranged combatants should have access to aggro reducing enhancements for ranged combat (just not as powerful as the ones rogues get).

Orratti
10-06-2009, 06:23 AM
This aspect of ranged combat was rightly removed from the game a long time ago. Rather then preventing kiting it made it more likely that ranged combat users would run far away from the group with mobs that they aggroed and then die.

LOL That sounds like the dumbest move by a ranger I have ever heard of. So since you can't reload while moving instead of dropping into melee you try to run far enough away to get the chance to reload and with aggro chasing you that never happens then they cut you down while in flight and you die far away from the party. LMFAO

redoubt
10-06-2009, 07:14 AM
No, they do not. What part of "damage per second" is hard to understand?

Nothing. Go back and read the question you wrote, which I answered. Then read my post again.

If you still think my answer is incorrect, then please explain it, because, based on the conditions you set, I still believe my answer to be correct.

redoubt
10-06-2009, 07:21 AM
Considering most DPS characters get hit on a 2, I don't see why you think that's a good argument.

I asked a question about why there is an AC penalty for holding a bow and you answer with its a bad argument because most people build characters with crappy AC??? Really???

You could at least answer the question and then try to explain why the mechanic that in already in the game is not sufficient. Considering you've given people neg rep for not backing up their arguments, I'm suprised you'd sidestep the issue this way.

Then again, the first part of your answer said that I underestimated you arrogance, so maybe not...

Visty
10-06-2009, 07:24 AM
I asked a question about why there is an AC penalty for holding a bow and you answer with its a bad argument because most people build characters with crappy AC??? Really???

You could at least answer the question and then try to explain why the mechanic that in already in the game is not sufficient. Considering you've given people neg rep for not backing up their arguments, I'm suprised you'd sidestep the issue this way.

Then again, the first part of your answer said that I underestimated you arrogance, so maybe not...

there is no ac penalty for holding a bow

redoubt
10-06-2009, 07:29 AM
there is no ac penalty for holding a bow

Since when? I'm pretty sure there is (or was) a 4 point penalty for holding a bow. Maybe it is a bonus to attack (in melee) a person holding a bow? (Thus technically not a penatly, but rather a bonus?)

We used to make a big deal of it, making sure not to try to block while holding the bow, but to swap to a shield.

Visty
10-06-2009, 07:30 AM
Since when? I'm pretty sure there is (or was) a 4 point penalty for holding a bow. Maybe it is a bonus to attack (in melee) a person holding a bow? (Thus technically not a penatly, but rather a bonus?)

We used to make a big deal of it, making sure not to try to block while holding the bow, but to swap to a shield.

tested it myself in....late mod8 i think and there was no ac malus or tohit bonus
and since i play this game (which is since feb 07) i never saw such a penalty

Borror0
10-06-2009, 07:45 AM
I asked a question about why there is an AC penalty for holding a bow and you answer with its a bad argument because most people build characters with crappy AC???
I thought it was a rhetorical question, and responded as such.

Why do ranged characters suffer an AC penalty when holding a ranged weapon again?
Most likely that those who designed 3.5 D&D wanted to encourage ranged characters to fight at range. In other words, it's most likely because of verisimilitude.

Though, I don't remember there being such a rule in D&D.

You could at least answer the question and then try to explain why the mechanic that in already in the game is not sufficient. Considering you've given people neg rep for not backing up their arguments, I'm suprised you'd sidestep the issue this way.
No, I backed my argument: such a penalty is not represent a disadvantage because the great majority of DPS builds do not have an AC that translates into any sort of avoidance.

If an AC penalty would represent a drawback to the bow wielder, it would mean that his AC was already higher than the melee characters and thus is already better protected than most melee DPS character by having AC high enough to matter.

In other words, if this penalty was added to DDO, it would have no effect or would not address the problem I was describing.

And, at the moment, there is no AC penalty for holding a bow in DDO.

We used to make a big deal of it, making sure not to try to block while holding the bow, but to swap to a shield.
Your blocking DR is higher when blocking with a shield than with a bow.

Turial
10-06-2009, 09:26 AM
LOL That sounds like the dumbest move by a ranger I have ever heard of. So since you can't reload while moving instead of dropping into melee you try to run far enough away to get the chance to reload and with aggro chasing you that never happens then they cut you down while in flight and you die far away from the party. LMFAO

There are some less then smart people out there. Look at the Darwin awards.


...
And, at the moment, there is no AC penalty for holding a bow in DDO.

Your blocking DR is higher when blocking with a shield than with a bow.

Bingo.

Just look at your character sheet when holding a bow. The only change in AC comes from putting down a shield or an AC bonus GS weapon. Everything else comes to blocking DR.

The stink about the AC penalty comes from back when holding a shield used to be "somewhat useful," you know back when TWF was regarded as teh suck (level 10 cap).

SquelchHU
10-06-2009, 09:30 AM
There is such a rule in PnP. Most people forget about it because:

1: It's obscure.
2: They get hit on a 2 anyways.
3: PnP ranged attackers are at least as badly screwed as DDO ranged attackers except for different reasons without needing any additional penalties. Partial exception: Cleric archers.

Anyways all you have to do to make ranged combat worth a damn in DDO is improve rate of fire. Do that and the rest will fall into line. Though it would help if there were not a three second delay between the time you hit your melee weapon hotkey and the time you actually draw your kopeshes.

Maximus1
10-06-2009, 04:30 PM
After Mod 9, rate of fire with the Ranger capstone+haste was about 77 shots per minute with a bow.

After patch 1, it went down to 72 shots per minute (same capstone+haste).

Can we at least get those 5 shots per minute back (considering patch 1 was supposed to be a melee fix and presumably shouldn't have affected ranged RoF)?

As of patch 2, it's still 72 shots per minute...

Letrii
10-07-2009, 07:32 AM
Where is the rule? All I could find was ranged attacks in melee provoke AoO.

Orratti
10-10-2009, 03:04 AM
In order to get anything in fixing ranged ROF or dps you are going to probably need a majority of players behind you. You say being able to fire on the run is necessary and a part of a useful tactic. This is true in solo play not really much in group play. Not caring if kiting is irritating to the rest of the group as long as you can handle your own aggro (if indeed you can) is not group play anymore than not healing party members but using you spell points for dps is group play for a cleric. You can make arguments for it all day but what you are really doing is playing solo in a group. Increasing the ROF on a bow while making it impossible to fire on the run without the feat would force you to learn or to actively participate in group tactics at least until you get the feat and by which point you will actually be a worthwhile range build deserving of added dps.

The example of the ranger who could not reload while moving running away from the party with aggro and getting cut down in flight is very appropriate. This is what would actually happen to a bowman who ran. The difference between the DnD ranger and historical bowmen is the ranger's melee combat ability is far superior. The only archer who could shoot while on the move was the horse archer. There are a couple of people who have posted in this thread in some support of increasing the ability of range builds to be worthwhile in dps that have probably always opposed the idea previously. This points that indeed they have met or ran with a range build that has been useful and applied good party tactics and thought "Too bad ranging isn't better because that guy would just be plain awesome if it was." You can make a million posts on the subject, ask the devs a million times, point out the bad mechanic just as many times but until the players who are not ranging have seen you as anything less than a hindrance or irritant you will never see anything change.

Xanndros
12-26-2009, 03:33 AM
Much has been said on this topic. I won't try to go through everyone else's idea's and comments but I'd like to contribute my thoughts.

At present, ranged is indeed too slow. Ranged shouldn't have as high a DPS or firing rate as Melee but it should at least be worth using.

Magic is also ranged and has some excellent damage (not to mention area of effect), yet no one argues it to be overpowered. Melee may not be ranged but it generally has more HP and has the highest DPS. It would be nice to see ranged have a firing rate and DPS just below that of single weapon melee (amount below to be determined though testing).

Rangers require Dex for accuracy and Str for damage whereas Melee classes require only Str for both. This leaves less attribute points for things like Con so having the head start on dealing damage can easily balance out.

Which would generally bring up the issue of running backward while shooting. This is where it SHOULD have been changed. The backward movement speed while firing should be considerably reduced.

IMHO, this solution allows for ranged combat to be viable (even for those that enjoy going at it alone from time to time) while not stealing the, well deserved, thunder from TWF melee classes.


~Xanndros

Maxelcat
12-26-2009, 07:17 AM
how about this?

Keep rate of fire the same...

Give us more bows with better base dammage / better crit ranges.

or allow ammo +s to stack with bow +s

If you cant fix the RoF then Just fix the damage delt.

Letrii
12-26-2009, 07:40 AM
The +x from bow and ammo don't stack due to D&D rules. The enhancements should stack though.

+3 shocking longbow and +2 flaming arrows should do damage as +3 shocking flaming.

Is it not working that way?

Visty
12-26-2009, 07:50 AM
The +x from bow and ammo don't stack due to D&D rules. The enhancements should stack though.

+3 shocking longbow and +2 flaming arrows should do damage as +3 shocking flaming.

Is it not working that way?

it is but that doesnt help the damage much
he was talking about that the + stack

Maxelcat
12-26-2009, 08:12 AM
Yea, i was talking about the + stack, I kow the + doesn't stack in PnP... but like its been said before DDO isn't PnP.

So far the grossest I've gotten with my Arcane Archer build is:

Bow +1/Acid/Good With Force and flame arrow

D8+1/+d6/+d6/+d6/+d6 and that's about as stacked out as you can get not counting greater bane arrows... (and that's at Lv6

If they could give bows a bigger element damage dice that would also help (but only on ranged) but I could just imagine the whining if ranged got d8 element damage and melee weapons didn't.

Or if the + of the bow also adjusted all the other damage from it and not just the arrow damage.

d8+1/+d6+1/+d6+1/+d6+1/+d6+1 it doesn't sound like much but that extra 4 base damage would give a little OOMPH for bow users.

BurnerD
12-26-2009, 08:36 AM
I've played an Arcane Archer up to 20 and really only use the ranged aspect situationally and when soloing. Manyshot with Improved Precise Shot can bail a party out of a nasty fight, but outside of that I can definitely do more damage twf.

If ROF is a could cause potential problems with server performance then I agree with several people here who have proposed adding / adjusting damage modifiers. They could be clickies or imbued into rare drops, but this would help the ranged combat issue. Maybe certain types of drop only arrows that improve your crit range? I dunno...

Things like an assasinate feature with a cooldown would even be a nice add.

If arcane archers are not to be high dps then shift the focus of the arrow imbuements to useful crowd control. Require fairly expensive or rare spell components for some of the better imbuements...

Aesop
12-26-2009, 09:57 AM
RoA for ranged needs a boost. NPCs should not be firing faster than PC Archers and yet they do.

The way Archers fire is slower than the appearance of the Slowed Down Combat that Turbine put in Update 1 that had most people frustrated... now have that forever and that's what combat is like for an archer

Archers ALSO need a way to increase Single Target Damage that is NOT Many Shot

Idea:
Over Draw
Prerequisites: Bow Strength, BAB 8
Benefit: Archer takes a -2 penalty to hit but gains a +4 Bonus to damage. This is an Active Stance and cannot be combined with other Active Stances, like Improved Precise Shot

Addtionally Archers NEED a way to manage aggro or to stop the kiting. My Archer has Diplomacy, but that only goes so far and only in a group.


Idea:
Ranged Pin
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, BAB 5, Dex 15
Benefit: You can fire an arrow to stop a target in place. Think a single target Web effect. The DC works the same as it does for Stunning Blow save that the calculation is based on Dexterity instead of Strength. this Tactical Feat has a 10 sec cooldown.

based on the Ranged Pin Feat from page 104 of the Complete Warrior


Of the Archer Based PrEs Arcane Archer is coming along, but Deepwoods Sniper is in need of help.

When I think of Deepwoods Sniper I think of hitting hard and accurately.

Each Tier should havea precision bonus to damage and a seeker bonus as well. It would also be nice to know if it is a 3 or 5 tier... I'm guessing three, but I dunno.

Perhaps +1d4 Damage per tier and +3 Stacking Seeker the first tier can keep its sniper shot and that an be improved overthe rest of the tiers as well, but the static bonuses are what really need help.

let me expand this out a little

DWS1: currently gives +1 to Hide and Move Silently and the Sniper Shot... wow.

DWS1: +1 Hide and Move Silently, +1d4 Damage (only applies to critable critters, constructs, oozes and undead need not apply), +2 Stacking Seeker, Sniper Shot (+4 to hit, +1 Crit Range and Multiplier)

DWS2: +2 Hd/MS, +2d4(total) Damage, +4 Stacking Seeker, Sniper Shot 2 (+4 to hit, +1 Crit Range, +2 Crit Multiplier, Vorpal strike on Confrimed Natural 20), +1 Crit Multiplier

DWS3: +3 Hd/MS, +3d4(total) Damage, +6 Stackable Seeker, Sniper Shot 3 (+4 to hit, +2 Crit Range and Multiplier, Vorpal Strike on confirmed 19-20), +1 Crit Multiplier and Range, Head Shot (Vorpal on any confirmed Natural 20)


AA has broader utility due to magical effects ... DWS should have greater refinement of the craft producing a deadly combatant

Aesop

Danneskjold184
12-26-2009, 10:44 AM
If Power Attack represents a Melee Fighter swinging harder, but not as accurately, why couldn't the same be said for a Range Attacker? The yeoman would pull harder, but because of the increased strain in a power attack, would be less accurate.


Or, why not make a "Killing Shot" much like the Monks have the "Quivering Palm." A once per 3-5 minute shot that is a Save or Die effect. Upon activating it, it'll take 2-3 seconds before releasing due to aiming the arrow.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-26-2009, 12:32 PM
For those who think increseing ranges RoF/DPS would make ranged overpowered, because of AI and/or (perceived)exploits:

The AI/exploits already exist and are already useful.

The only difference would be how fast the mob dies whe you use them.

And how often players would be willing to wait to use them.

SO I see any other problems, besides RoF as a seperate subject completely.

More akin to Firewall.

Any tactic you could use with an increase RoF can be used currently...it just takes longer.

Currently the biggest obsticle to efective ranged combat really is the players themselves.

But ranged is slow. Especially slow if you do not have rapid shot.

I don't need ranged combat to do equal DPS to melee.
But I need it to feel useful and be good enough that other players don't snub you for using a bow.
And downright laugh at you if your non-ranged specc char pulls out a bow.

My biggest pet peave is that when a tactical situation would sensibly call for a melee specced char to pull out a ranged weapon........he doesn't. Because he feels like he's throwing spit balls in a slow motion movie.

A ranged specced char can at least feel useful.

Jay203
12-26-2009, 02:57 PM
Have you tested what happens when an archer PC fights an archer mob? Like a Tielfling ranger on shavarath?

yes, i have, and they still can't hit me :p:p:p:p:p

whysper
12-26-2009, 04:02 PM
Huh. Apparently bows work on the undead at least.

Aesop
12-27-2009, 12:10 AM
Huh. Apparently bows work on the undead at least.

Obviously not... otherwise they would have killed this thread... must have some form of DR that Bows don't bypass... like slashing or bludgeoning

vampiregoat69
12-27-2009, 01:06 AM
this is why I deleted my deepwood sniper as he just was not able to help the party much I was better off throwing rocks and teasing the monsters while other melee pounded the wholy **** out of them.


/SIGNED big time

Orratti
12-29-2009, 09:16 PM
I think maybe an elven racial enhancement that improve the crit range of bow fire might do very well in improving the effectiveness without overpowering ranged builds. Elven crit. ranging 1 and 2 increases the crit range by one each. with imp crit ranging feat making bows crit on 17-20 or 15-20 in the case of the silver longbow

Possibly adding another ability Elven ROF Boost that is a timed effect much like haste boost for fighters and rogues that stacks with manyshot.

I'd be more interested in seeing the crit range improvement over the rate of fire improvement if I had to choose. I agree with many previous posters that improving critical chances and damage modifiers would be a good way to go in improving range combat.

Viccoo
12-29-2009, 09:48 PM
My bet is the reason that archer dps is below everyone else is that the devs actually play this game. It only takes one group with a ranged ranger to realize what a huge pain in the tail it is to have to chase a mob being kited as a melee dpser. After the first one I encountered I seriously questioned rangers before inviting them for at least a week. What's worse is ranged fighters in the 8-13 range. They do pretty good damage, but then it tails off sharply.

If there was a good taunt mechanic in the game then your guys archer cries might get acknowledged. The one in place can barely be recognized as what it is supposed to be. And actually I kind of like it that way even though it's harder to make up for noobs lack of skills with a good tank.

Xanndros
12-31-2009, 06:25 PM
The kiting issue is exactly why I suggest nerfing walking speed (at least backward if not entirely) while shooting. That way you can give them their attack speed without making them overpowered or annoying.


~Xanndros

Angelus_dead
01-02-2010, 02:43 PM
The kiting issue is exactly why I suggest nerfing walking speed (at least backward if not entirely) while shooting.
Or instead they could buff shooting speed while not walking.

Aesop
01-02-2010, 03:00 PM
Or instead they could buff shooting speed while not walking.

yep old suggestion but a goodie

Aesop

taospark
01-02-2010, 04:21 PM
Both of those are true, as long as it is remembered that "fixing ranged" is something different from "increasing ranged DPS".

Yeah, a lot of the playerbase thinks that the ranged proponents just want a big DPS buff. (It doesn't help that a lot of the proponents do want that.)

I don't mind having a mediocre DPS if I can have the attack speed to drop that charging Elemental before it can fry the Barbarian, who can then charge and nail those enemy Archers for me.

Kromize
01-03-2010, 08:27 AM
Don't you know?

Half the Dev Team is Chaotic Evil! They laugh and cackle in their dark dungeon, conjuring new ways to torment players.

The other half are Aasimar, but are forced to work with these nefarious individuals, coding these sadistic plots into the game.


This is true. Next thing you know, they're gonna make a dungeon with gelatinous cubes as the floor. 0_0 The only objective is to get to the end of the 'room'.



/silly off

That aside, I'd seriously like to see Ranged implemented PROPERLY. I'm tired of wondering why my Ranger 10 shoots like she's never seen a bow before in her life, despite being a Deepwood Sniper.

Agreed.

Also, remove 'Bow Strength', and fix composite bows.

A composite bow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow.And after doing those. Add some crafting. Allow people to convert bows to composite bows, crossbows to repeating crossbows, vice versa... Only really need to know some simple mechanics. And if you're going to add that, may as well add in more, to convert blade type weapons to other blade type, like turning a longsword into a kopesh. As well as dulling the blade of a slashing weapon, to make it bludgeon. And then adding in separate attack animations for weapons, so they make sense. No more slashing piercers!(slashing with a rapier and claiming pierce damage) And if you do that, may as well add a selection menu or something that will dictate what type of attack you will you. Piercing or slashing(shortsword/longsword). And fix morning stars. ....hmm...I'll stop there...

Visty
01-03-2010, 12:31 PM
Also, remove 'Bow Strength', and fix composite bows.

that would just nerf ranged even more as composite bows are capped at +5 from str

Aesop
01-03-2010, 12:53 PM
that would just nerf ranged even more as composite bows are capped at +5 from str

people keep saying that... but I don't see that in the description at all...

In fact Monster Manual 3 shows War Trolls using a Masterwork Composite Longbow (+10 Strength Mod)


Though honestly I perfer the Feat anyway

Aesop

Visty
01-03-2010, 01:19 PM
people keep saying that... but I don't see that in the description at all...

in my PHB the table stops at +2 for shortbows and +4 for longbows

that might be it

Freep
01-03-2010, 01:30 PM
I haven't read the entire thread, so please forgive if I'm suggesting the obvious, but I imagine the following solution working fairly well:

1) Increase ranged damage.
2) Levy an AC penalty to a person using a ranged weapon (we can dodge enemy missiles, and deserve to get creamed if we try to fire a bow in melee).
3) Adjust mob AI to switch to melee if X missiles in a row miss or hit a wall, etc.

I'd be happy to have to deal with logical consequences of using a bow, but the current state of ranged combat makes no sense. The above changes would provide some realistic flavor, and would boost the difficult of most dungeons to boot!

Aesop
01-03-2010, 03:23 PM
in my PHB the table stops at +2 for shortbows and +4 for longbows

that might be it

is that 3.0 or 3.5?

I just checked the Description in the 3.5 PHB and it doesn't indicate a maximum... it gives examples but those are just examples of cost to str mod ratios

Aesop

Kromize
01-03-2010, 03:37 PM
If you just pick up a bow, and decide to use your strength, all your going to to is snap the string... It needs to be built to utilize strength.

Cyr
01-04-2010, 12:44 PM
Easiest way to fix ranged combat is to increase the ROF by 25-35% (based upon BAB) while standing still. More dps if you do not kite, jump shoot... This would negate the need for any AI changes to compensate (although clearly mob AI has some issues).

decafjoe
02-09-2010, 01:20 PM
So after reading this entire thread I picked up on 2 things:

1. Melee players think ranged players are less likely to take damage, therefore ranged players should not be able to DO as much damage as melee.

2. If a ranged character pulls aggro and is therefore threatened with taking damage, melee finds it annoying because they now have to chase after the mob to continue to damage it.


So from these two findings it seems that melee wants ranged to be able to be damaged but they don't want the mobs to have to run up to the ranged person to do it. Did I get all that right?

Seems like there should be an easy way to fix this. . .but since it seems ranged combat has be below par for such a long that I guess that really isn't the case.

grodon9999
02-09-2010, 03:25 PM
Originally posted in the Ranger forums:

NEEDED
1. Increase RoF for bows to be the same as a person swinging a single sword (before the capstone enhancements) if you have the Rapid-shot feat. If you can’t be bothered to take the feat you can continue to suck. I don’t think it is too much to ask for PnP parity.
2. Change the agro rules so monsters don’t jump you as soon as they smell a bow.

Would be nice . . .
3. An “Overdraw” feat that would do what Power-attack does sounds like a reasonable idea to me. In my opinion you should have to stay standing still while this is active, moving should remove you from this stance.
4. Allow some kind of crafting or vendor-selling of special arrows (Flame, frost, greater-halfling-bane, etc . . .) besides the Auction House. This will allow for more ranged-effectiveness and works as a means of getting PP out of the game to cut inflation.
5. Cut the cool-down time on Manyshot. Not sure on numbers for this. I’m thinking cut the cooldown in half.
6. Make some more quests where ranged would be more useful. There’s only so many times you can kill the demon queen. Maybe have the dragons in “Mirred in Kolbolds” take to the air instead of letting you beat them like a Shroud-portal. I guess it’s easier on the developers to just give monsters 1,000,000 HP than to program AI to not be ********.
7. House D sells "blunt" arrows for shooting skells.