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Tolero
09-30-2009, 03:08 PM
Tell us about your experiences in the new epic difficulty of The Circle of Eternity quest!

sirgog
10-17-2009, 01:09 AM
So you can get meaningful feedback, have you considered giving boosts to Lamania players so they can test this properly with toons that are level 20 and properly equipped for this?

Maybe you might want to consider giving people that are level 15+ on Llama-land that want to help test this a boost to level 20, 12 of each Shroud small, medium and large ingredient with 4 of each power shard, two cleansed greensteel blanks, a greensteel weapon blank, and their choice of Amrath set. This will give you the best possible feedback on what I assume is meant to be the new premier end-game raid, so you can launch it at the most appropriate difficulty level.


If you decide to do this and do it at a time I can make, I'll make the effort to D/L the Llama-land client.

Shade
10-17-2009, 01:37 AM
Did this on epic.. 2maned it!

Didn't make it past the third gate heh. 1 efreeti, np, 2 efreeti errr.. 3 efreetis.. clean gets double delayed blast firballs in teh face, gameover.

Interesting to the see the progression on this raid tho.. The ideal of enhanced difficulty seems to be more red named.. Kinda dumb. Prefered the boss be way harder, and the trash be more numerous making intelligent CC a must... Rather then red named disabling all CC dropping the fight down to a bare boned 5min brawl.

Original module 3 release: No red named at all.
Patch not long after: Gnolls are red named.
Mod4/5ish: Efreeti are red named
Mod10 epic: Everything is red named! Even weak mephits.

Jay203
10-17-2009, 01:51 AM
shade, that doesn't sound fun at all

Red names are killing this game, making us do nothing but DPS rather than tactics >_>

sirgog
10-17-2009, 02:07 AM
shade, that doesn't sound fun at all

Red names are killing this game, making us do nothing but DPS rather than tactics >_>

The efreeti are rednamed even on Normal difficulty (although of course they are pushovers there).

SableShadow
10-17-2009, 02:40 AM
Lava gates filled with stone, so a TK that dumps you in the lava essentially finishes the raid for whomever it gets...maybe this was a Mod 9 change? Haven't had to go lava diving in a while. I assume the gates down there open up if she's killed?

Same tactics, but everything has buffed AC and HP. Efreet chew stuff up w/o shield and fire pro. We didn't take her down very far, just to the first return, so not sure if she's got anything special at the later returns.

Shade
10-17-2009, 03:26 AM
Lava gates filled with stone, so a TK that dumps you in the lava essentially finishes the raid for whomever it gets...maybe this was a Mod 9 change? Haven't had to go lava diving in a while. I assume the gates down there open up if she's killed?

Same tactics, but everything has buffed AC and HP. Efreet chew stuff up w/o shield and fire pro. We didn't take her down very far, just to the first return, so not sure if she's got anything special at the later returns.

meh.
They should of reworked the raid allot for epic. A short nuke her down with more hp/resists isn't interesting or more challenging..... Just forces groups to take along allot of ranged dps.

SableShadow
10-17-2009, 04:08 AM
meh.
They should of reworked the raid allot for epic. A short nuke her down with more hp/resists isn't interesting or more challenging..... Just forces groups to take along allot of ranged dps.

Well, we didn't take her down past one return to the platform, so maybe she's got other surprises. Saves are cranked up seriously, too.

Efreet is what got us.

samho
10-17-2009, 08:58 AM
Lava gates filled with stone, so a TK that dumps you in the lava essentially finishes the raid for whomever it gets...maybe this was a Mod 9 change? Haven't had to go lava diving in a while. I assume the gates down there open up if she's killed?



Don't think so (about the mod 9 change assumption).

I just happen to have some luck to get a TK which dump me to lava few days ago (on live server) and pretty sure those portal were still open while she still have more than 60% hp. It's usable even at elite. This change was probably EPIC only.

maddmatt70
10-17-2009, 08:27 PM
meh.
They should of reworked the raid allot for epic. A short nuke her down with more hp/resists isn't interesting or more challenging..... Just forces groups to take along allot of ranged dps.

It forces groups to use different tactics then just beat her down with melee weapons.. I like different tactics.

Aussieee
10-17-2009, 09:07 PM
It forces groups to use different tactics then just beat her down with melee weapons.. I like different tactics. Diferent tactics? Last I checked people were using casters/ranger to get DQ down nobody really melees her, unleass they are Axer ;)

Jay203
10-17-2009, 09:10 PM
Diferent tactics? Last I checked people were using casters/ranger to get DQ down nobody really melees her, unleass they are Axer ;)

fixed :p

bobbryan2
10-17-2009, 09:13 PM
It forces groups to use different tactics then just beat her down with melee weapons.. I like different tactics.

I don't really think things like

"Everyone beat her down at melee"
or
"Everyone range her"

actually are indepth enough to be considered tactics. Those tend to be common sense. Tactics being reduced to a single common sense thing isn't the good. At least with melee beatdowns, it's slightly more complex when you add in things like banishment, MD, and intimitanks... aggro swapping.

Ranged tactics are as follows...

push autoattack
keep away from her.

maddmatt70
10-17-2009, 10:41 PM
I don't really think things like

"Everyone beat her down at melee"
or
"Everyone range her"

actually are indepth enough to be considered tactics. Those tend to be common sense. Tactics being reduced to a single common sense thing isn't the good. At least with melee beatdowns, it's slightly more complex when you add in things like banishment, MD, and intimitanks... aggro swapping.

Ranged tactics are as follows...

push autoattack
keep away from her.

Auto- attack what kind of range player are you?

maddmatt70
10-17-2009, 10:43 PM
Diferent tactics? Last I checked people were using casters/ranger to get DQ down nobody really melles her, unleass they are Axer ;)

Exactly different tactics then the million other quests which are all about melee. So let me get this straight there is actually a quest where ranged combat has alot of value. Oh god forbid.. Perhaps some people should roll up some ranged characters - you know that use bows or xbows or thrown weapons.

Aussieee
10-17-2009, 10:45 PM
Exactly different tactics then the million other quests which are all about melee. So let me get this straight there is actually a quest where ranged combat has alot of value. Oh god forbid.. Perhaps some people should roll up some ranged characters - you know that use bows or xbows or thrown weapons.
Thrown weapons? Better roll anything with scroll mastery proly would do more damage;)

I just think a quest where certain class or race is not very helpful makes it no fun! Having to wait x time to get people that are actually going to be useful in x quest sucks a$$. The raid is not popular as it is.....making it same Epic pain won't get any more attention..... yes ranging and veriety is nice BUT waiting around isn't.

Let me rephrase that how many non range people are you going to take in a Epic raid like that....if you ask me not many,atleast I proly won't.

Tyrande
10-17-2009, 11:12 PM
Thrown weapons? Better roll anything with scroll mastery proly would do more damage;)

I just think a quest where certain class or race is not very helpful makes it no fun! Having to wait x time to get people that are actually going to be useful in x quest sucks a$$. The raid is not popular as it is.....making it same Epic pain won't get any more attention..... yes ranging and veriety is nice BUT waiting around isn't.

Let me rephrase that how many non range people are you going to take in a Epic raid like that....if you ask me not many,atleast I proly won't.

Just ask yourself this: "How many arcane casters do people take in an elite shroud, Vision of Destruction or hard Tower of Despair raid"? Or how many pure ranged archers do people take in these raids?

People tend to think those quests are melee oriented. Melee can use range weapons if they have good strength and decent dexterity. As for casters, only some warforged arcane casters (sorcerers) lower their primary casting stat in favor of strength and constitution to melee and in turn they are not good at casting at all, instead all casting are either buffs or damage spells that have no save.

HeavenlyCloud
10-17-2009, 11:58 PM
:)

Junts
10-18-2009, 12:11 AM
Just ask yourself this: "How many arcane casters do people take in an elite shroud, Vision of Destruction or hard Tower of Despair raid"? Or how many pure ranged archers do people take in these raids?




Always 2 casters for an elite shroud; I have done elite vods and hard towers with as many as 3-4. In fact, multiple casters in tower is a particularly good idea, since it provides the following benefits:

1: multiple available kiters
2: multiple wf tank healers (for wf tanking judge or suulo or horoth)
3: multiple people to focus on trash control to free up melee to dps

Frankly, Hound of Xoriat is the least-caster friendly endgame raid by far, and the proportion of casters to party spots is roughly what it ought to be for the other raids on higher difficulties. Its on lower difficulties where trash mobs are not dangerous and people are not worried about things like healing burden, mob control and debuffs that people start considering casters extraneous for extra DPS. I would gladly run normal shroud sans any arcane (as long as the bard could haste), but bringing at least one on elite makes the run tremendously easier, and two even moreso, far more than the added dps would provide in most cases, as controlling damage dealt to the party etc becomes a higher priority

Hound is really the only quest in the endgame of DDO in which casters are really irrelevant.

If Lailat's hp werent massively increased (and feedback suggests they are not), then the need for this epic raid will not be more caster/ranged dps, it will be for more melees to adequately cope with Efreeti, as said efreeti are not easily dealt with by the ranged dps or casters you mention (at least according to existing feedback). Exceptionally strong efreeti in need of high ac and dps melees will give melee an important role in the raid, and making a 4 melee/3 ranger/3 caster/2 cleric party a better idea than a 3 ranger/7 caster/2 cleric party, which, right now, is by far a better party for Zawabi's revenge regardless of player level and difficulty (even on elite at level, melees are worthless).

Dangerous efreeti gives melee an essential and important job in the raid, even if its not dpsing the boss. This does not exist in the non-epic version of Zawabi's Revenge.

Aussieee
10-18-2009, 12:23 AM
Just ask yourself this: "How many arcane casters do people take in an elite shroud, Vision of Destruction or hard Tower of Despair raid"? Or how many pure ranged archers do people take in these raids?

People tend to think those quests are melee oriented. Melee can use range weapons if they have good strength and decent dexterity. As for casters, only some warforged arcane casters (sorcerers) lower their primary casting stat in favor of strength and constitution to melee and in turn they are not good at casting at all, instead all casting are either buffs or damage spells that have no save.

Exactly my point. Quests are fun when every class can be useful. Casters are a third wheel at end game,you can only nuke so much before mana runs out. Unleass you got a bank full with mana pots. So any quest that needs more 2-3 classes to get done,has not really been done well.

Anyways I have never been fan of DQ raid for that exact reason. Bring a melee ...sit around and look pretty. Bring caster or ranger and you can have fun..... But running around for 45 min and trying to survive alot more then attacking or trying to do any damage at her is plain stupid.

Here is a suggestion for the devs if you are interested at all. Instead of having her move around so much on Epic how about have her do more special attacks like Abbot? Give her maybe more spells. Like lets say she only somethimes will go ahead and attack targets rest of the time she will cast spells. That way you stil will have the ranged and casters do damage when she is attacking and have melees go in when she is not. A patern like in abbot would be better. Call out a special attack.

Angelus_dead
10-18-2009, 12:27 AM
If Lailat's hp werent massively increased (and feedback suggests they are not), then the need for this epic raid will not be more caster/ranged dps, it will be for more melees to adequately cope with Efreeti, as said efreeti are not easily dealt with by the ranged dps
In what way can't the ranged DPS handle efreeti?

They are most probably Tempest rangers, after all. A few thousand Cold Iron arrows is all they need to attack Laliat, and they can stop to go chop on Efreetis whenever they appear. (Maybe toss in a cheap pos+pos GS bow if needed)

totmacher
10-18-2009, 12:32 AM
there is not a lot of meleeing in this raid unless you are chasing or got 50+ blocking dr

Junts
10-18-2009, 12:34 AM
In what way can't the ranged DPS handle efreeti?

They are most probably Tempest rangers, after all. A few thousand Cold Iron arrows is all they need to attack Laliat, and they can stop to go chop on Efreetis whenever they appear. (Maybe toss in a cheap pos+pos GS bow if needed)



That's true, I was more equating ranged dps with the caster dps, which is primarily what people use for ranged in ZR, and the need to deal with Efreeti via sp would quickly become a major issue in having enough to continue to DPS Lailat.

If they've given her so much fire res that firewall's no longer useful and/or so many hp that the only way to ranged dps her -is- with rangers, then that will be a significant problem for the raid, since there'll be no reason to bring any class that lacks a bow icon.

bobbryan2
10-18-2009, 12:35 AM
Exactly my point. Quests are fun when every class can be useful. Casters are a third wheel at end game,you can only nuke so much before mana runs out. Unleass you got a bank full with mana pots. So any quest that needs more 2-3 classes to get done,has not really been done well.

Anyways I have never been fan of DQ raid for that exact reason. Bring a melee ...sit around and look pretty. Bring caster or ranger and you can have fun..... But running around for 45 min and trying to survive alot more then attacking or trying to do any damage at her is plain stupid.

Here is a suggestion for the devs if you are interested at all. Instead of having her move around so much on Epic how about have her do more special attacks like Abbot? Give her maybe more spells. Like lets say she only somethimes will go ahead and attack targets rest of the time she will cast spells. That way you stil will have the ranged and casters do damage when she is attacking and have melees go in when she is not. A patern like in abbot would be better. Call out a special attack.

Last Shroud I did had 4 melees including 2 rogues. We had 3 casters, 3 clerics, a bard and something else.

We killed him in the first round.

Casters do awesome in the Shroud... the fact that groups don't realize that isn't the fault of the quest or the classes.

Junts
10-18-2009, 12:36 AM
Last Shroud I did had 4 melees including 2 rogues. We had 3 casters, 3 clerics, a bard and something else.

We killed him in the first round.

Casters do awesome in the Shroud... the fact that groups don't realize that isn't the fault of the quest or the classes.

Agreed, my caster is part of more 1-round shrouds than any other character I've got, since for 90 seconds his DPS is extreme, and thats as logn as you need extreme dps in each part of the shroud.

HeavenlyCloud
10-18-2009, 12:38 AM
Really really insane raid. Actually way beyond epic especially with the party make-up we had. I can see this raid "easily" getting done with a lot of evasion characters.

First Part: I can see parties wiping very easily just trying to get to the portal.

Second Part: This was a kite fest by the cleric and casters, nothing that hard except the usual 1 hit KO 6 arms hax0rz attack from the queen. Melees without evasion with only 1 cleric = i wouldn't say death weight but really not that useful. Critting over 500 every once in a while against the Queen helped but if i wasn't careful i was down to 10% of my hp in 1-2 seconds tops.

She got a really high AC, above 65 if my memory serves me right (Something that i really noticed was that i couldn't confirm a crit on 1 which made me really said WOW!).

When she summons the efreeti we couldn't kill them fast enough so we just let them be running around after someone.

Third Part: Once she goes berserk was just insane, she only did her 6 arms hax0rz attack all over the place with increased movement speed. Perma blade barriers spinning around the platform, although you can evade them easily but the second you see the Demon Queen coming at you that's when things get really ugly.

The Queen easily have above 250k hp. (This is only an approximate thinking about the damage i did + blade barrier, could easily be more)

Epic raid: Yes
Fun Factor: Yes (For me)

Aussieee
10-18-2009, 12:50 AM
Epic raid: Yes
Fun Factor: Yes (For me)
Said the guy with 800+ hp:(

Jonny_D
10-18-2009, 12:57 AM
I used 41 majors on my Wizzy

died 37 times and had all my gear destroyed...2 docents

without evasion this quest is rediculous.
I had a blast though, tactics might make it go better, but we simply brute forced it

Angelus_dead
10-18-2009, 01:36 AM
When she summons the efreeti we couldn't kill them fast enough so we just let them be running around after someone.
That was frequently a useful technique on elite mode (during mod 3-4 at least). And of course, it's similar to what's done with shadowfiends in TOD.

That's why I recommend the devs don't allow the things a major boss summons to be kited away from their master like that: Each time you hurt the boss, 50% of the aggro is added to all the summons. That way, they'll gravitate back towards whoever is DPSing their leader.

(Naturally the devs should compensate for less-kitable mobs by making them more reasonable to fight and kill)

Jonny_D
10-18-2009, 01:55 AM
That was frequently a useful technique on elite mode (during mod 3-4 at least). And of course, it's similar to what's done with shadowfiends in TOD.

That's why I recommend the devs don't allow the things a major boss summons to be kited away from their master like that: Each time you hurt the boss, 50% of the aggro is added to all the summons. That way, they'll gravitate back towards whoever is DPSing their leader.

(Naturally the devs should compensate for less-kitable mobs by making them more reasonable to fight and kill)
maybe if it was 2 efreeti at most that spawned otherwise it wont work they have so many hp... pretty tough to tether them on that small platform

Shade
10-18-2009, 02:45 AM
Grats..

And the loot.. Was just raid tokens?

Shade
10-18-2009, 02:56 AM
I used 41 majors on my Wizzy

died 37 times and had all my gear destroyed...2 docents


So doing wall of fire?

What was her fire resist like?

SimVerg
10-18-2009, 03:12 AM
Grats..

And the loot.. Was just raid tokens?

Anyone else read this in a Horatio Cane voice followed immediately by a "YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AHHHHHHH"?

Jonny_D
10-18-2009, 09:55 AM
So doing wall of fire?

What was her fire resist like?
Approx from what I remember
WoF was hitting for 25 ish non crit and 45ish crit
polar ray 240ish-470's
Otilukes 100ish
DBF neverr hit her

polar and Otilukes were the main damagers, although I did spam wof at every oppertunity until her final port when she appeared to be immune as per usual

Jonny_D
10-18-2009, 09:57 AM
Grats..

And the loot.. Was just raid tokens?
nothing dropped, but that doesnt mean it wont

I would like to see any raid loot drop from the chest already be upgrade to epic:cool:

Shade
10-18-2009, 10:02 AM
nothing dropped, but that doesnt mean it wont

I would like to see any raid loot drop from the chest already be upgrade to epic:cool:

um.. I can clearly see some stuff did drop in your screenshot in this thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=208215

Appears to be several shards?

You did not get a raid token each?

They're should of been a clickable orb that gave everyone one, there meant to be guarenteed drops.. If you didn't.. bug report it.

totmacher
10-18-2009, 10:10 AM
everyone got an epic raid token and i wouldn't count shards as raid loot, since you can get them from DQ1 as well

Shade
10-18-2009, 10:30 AM
everyone got an epic raid token and i wouldn't count shards as raid loot, since you can get them from DQ1 as well

Are you sure about that?

So far there have been allot of reports of:
Scrolls - Drop off monsters
Seals - Come from chests, tons were found
Shards were never found in chains, wiz king nor offering of blood

Perhaps shards are limited to DQ1 and DQ2?

Also the shards only dropped out of the warded epic raid chest right? not the side one?

Junts
10-18-2009, 10:35 AM
It seems like an important project here should be getting these people with shards the seals and scrolls appropriate to their items, aren't one of the 3 tradable?

I think we'd all be very interested to know what the epic versions of a lot of that stuff does.

totmacher
10-18-2009, 10:40 AM
It seems like an important project here should be getting these people with shards the seals and scrolls appropriate to their items, aren't one of the 3 tradable?

I think we'd all be very interested to know what the epic versions of a lot of that stuff does.

that's what we're aiming for. we should have the adherent's pendant in line sometime soon as we saw the seal drop out of the bottom of raiyum. and from the runs i've done it seems like the seals are segmented in where they drop, only adherent's pendant in wizking, etc etc. i haven't seen any crossover yet but more data will be needed to make an assertion. but that does seem to be the feeling so far with 20+ drops

Shade
10-18-2009, 10:42 AM
It seems like an important project here should be getting these people with shards the seals and scrolls appropriate to their items, aren't one of the 3 tradable?

I think we'd all be very interested to know what the epic versions of a lot of that stuff does.

The scrolls are.
I have 3 different ones: Marilith Chain, Wolf Whistle, Robe of Fire
Saw Dragonstart get: Sirroco, Cape of the Roc
I'll mail em off to anyone who has the other 3 parts.

Someone would need all 4 items. Pretty much the only shards im aware are the ones they got, and I don't know which as theres still no clear on answer on what shards they got (the SS blocks the names of them)

Junts
10-18-2009, 10:43 AM
that's what we're aiming for. we should have the adherent's pendant in line sometime soon as we saw the seal drop out of the bottom of raiyum. and from the runs i've done it seems like the seals are segmented in where they drop, only adherent's pendant in wizking, etc etc. i haven't seen any crossover yet but more data will be needed to make an assertion. but that does seem to be the feeling so far with 20+ drops

Ok so get Brenna's rear into OOB stat, please :):)

How does that work for raid loot, though? does that stuff even drop from the trash mobs in the raid?

totmacher
10-18-2009, 10:45 AM
Ok so get Brenna's rear into OOB stat, please :):)

How does that work for raid loot, though? does that stuff even drop from the trash mobs in the raid?

we didn't see any scrolls on the way in. we cleared at least 3 times that i can remember, maybe 4.

Shade
10-18-2009, 10:50 AM
How does that work for raid loot, though? does that stuff even drop from the trash mobs in the raid?

Again mobs only drop scrolls.

I don't think of the items seem specific to any monster or chest, except perhaps the shards.

Wouldn't make sense, as theres no epic menectarun to get parts of all the adventure area loot.

We got Sirroco scroll - which drops in wiz king, in chains for example. As well as Marilith chian, raidloot scroll, in chains.

Junts
10-18-2009, 11:01 AM
The scrolls are.
I have 3 different ones: Marilith Chain, Wolf Whistle, Robe of Fire
Saw Dragonstart get: Sirroco, Cape of the Roc
I'll mail em off to anyone who has the other 3 parts.

Someone would need all 4 items. Pretty much the only shards im aware are the ones they got, and I don't know which as theres still no clear on answer on what shards they got (the SS blocks the names of them)

I could see it ..

Spectral gloves, storm, adherent's pendant and demon scale armor.

totmacher
10-18-2009, 11:06 AM
I could see it ..

Spectral gloves, storm, adherent's pendant and demon scale armor.

we have a collapisible shortbow shard as well

Anthios888
10-18-2009, 11:13 AM
Can anyone confirm whether you need to do CoF, OOB, Wiz King, and ADQ all on epic to be able to open Zawabi's Revenge on epic?

totmacher
10-18-2009, 11:31 AM
Can anyone confirm whether you need to do CoF, OOB, Wiz King, and ADQ all on epic to be able to open Zawabi's Revenge on epic?

we've been asked this the most... you only need to be keyed for DQ 2 (having done a non-epic DQ 1) and done DQ 2 Elite to open. also, I think as long as you're level 20, you don't even need elite DQ 2, you just need to be keyed and level 20 as long as someone else opens it.

Erekose
10-25-2009, 05:36 PM
we've been asked this the most...

What is this 'we' you speak of?

Polly want a cracker?