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Aspenor
09-29-2009, 12:00 PM
Attack rate does not increase to the full BAB attack speed when divine power is used. Please make the spell function as written.

rimble
09-29-2009, 12:02 PM
Or rewrite it to explain as functioning. I kinda like the idea of REAL BaB classes being a little up on poseur BaB classes.

Lithic
09-29-2009, 12:04 PM
are you sure? I do see a significant increase in my swing rates when I use it on my favored soul as well as my rogue. Its almost like another haste.

Rheebus
09-29-2009, 12:05 PM
While I love using Divine Power on my Sorc Tank, pure BaB classes probably do deserve to attack slightly faster than my Sorc... D'oh!

Rheebus

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 12:06 PM
are you sure? I do see a significant increase in my swing rates when I use it on my favored soul as well as my rogue. Its almost like another haste.

Not 100% sure, but not convinced there's any difference when I activate it, either.

SableShadow
09-29-2009, 12:09 PM
Not 100% sure, but not convinced there's any difference when I activate it, either.

I see a slight increase (BAB 14 to...whatever it is now, reads "BAB 16/20" on the character sheet. :P). I think it caps at BAB 16 for swing rate, not 100% sure.

Gonna have to wait and see what they do to attack rates in the next change, really, before I'm going to go nuts one way or another.

maddmatt70
09-29-2009, 12:12 PM
My suggestions would be to remove divine power clickies from the game, make sure the divine power spell works properly for clerics/fvs and add arcane prestige enhancements which add to melee dps. That is the better (mirrors pnp) and more comprehensive solution.

Impaqt
09-29-2009, 12:12 PM
I can notice on my L11 FvS when DP Runs out. You might want to do a test to see if its working or not for you... I believe the BAB Speed Bump is working just fine..

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 12:13 PM
My suggestions would be to remove divine power clickies from the game, make sure the divine power spell works properly for clerics/fvs and add arcane prestige enhancements which add to melee dps. That is the better (mirrors pnp) and more comprehensive solution.

And how would you compensate me for the 10 clickies I have of 5x/day in my backpack?

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 12:13 PM
I see a slight increase (BAB 14 to...whatever it is now, reads "BAB 16/20" on the character sheet. :P). I think it caps at BAB 16 for swing rate, not 100% sure.

Gonna have to wait and see what they do to attack rates in the next change, really, before I'm going to go nuts one way or another.

It may cap at 16 for swing rate, and if so it needs to be fixed.

maddmatt70
09-29-2009, 12:14 PM
And how would you compensate me for the 10 clickies I have of 5x/day in my backpack?

You are out of luck - oh well.

rimble
09-29-2009, 12:16 PM
It may cap at 16 for swing rate, and if so it needs to be fixed.

Disagreed. But I'm off to see the dentist now, so I'll let someone else debate for me.

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 12:18 PM
You are out of luck - oh well.

If you can't come up with a way to compensate for items being removed and made completely worthless, then it will never happen. You'll have to work harder than that.

SableShadow
09-29-2009, 12:20 PM
Disagreed. But I'm off to see the dentist now, so I'll let someone else debate for me.

Dentistry is OP; nerf dentists NAO!

Phidius
09-29-2009, 12:22 PM
And how would you compensate me for the 10 clickies I have of 5x/day in my backpack?

Probably by changing all the Green Steel Haste/Displacement/etc. clickies to be cast at a minimum level (5 for haste/displacement, 7 for stoneskin, etc...)

Not that nerfing others will ever make things better, but that seems to be the way it's done. There's a precedence with the change to the True Res clickie...

joker922
09-29-2009, 12:22 PM
I noticed a significant increase in my attack rate, on my cleric last night from Divine Power Spell.

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 12:23 PM
Probably by changing all the Green Steel Haste/Displacement/etc. clickies to be cast at a minimum level (5 for haste/displacement, 7 for stoneskin, etc...)

Not that nerfing others will ever make things better, but that seems to be the way it's done. There's a precedence with the change to the True Res clickie...

Changing =/= making useless and worthless, removing from the game entirely.

Valiance
09-29-2009, 12:26 PM
Divine Power (including clickies) needs to give the full benefit of the BAB. There is absolutely no reason to nerf this. Battlemages/clerics are in NO WAY overpowered as far as their melee abilities go.

Many, many people love the self sufficiency and fun that a battlecaster brings to this game. This includes a recent review I read which was very impressed with the ability to make a somewhat viable battlecaster in the game.

To apply a stealth nerf like this makes no sense whatsoever.

V

Phidius
09-29-2009, 12:27 PM
Changing =/= making useless and worthless, removing from the game entirely.

True, but I imagine the discontent created by nerfing GS clickies would be similar to the discontent that would be caused by removing DP clickies.

Maybe the GS nerf would generate more, now that I think about it.

Eladrin
09-29-2009, 12:38 PM
I noticed a significant increase in my attack rate, on my cleric last night from Divine Power Spell.
So do I - it looks like it's working entirely as expected. I use Divine Power, my swing speed increases to the BAB 20 rate.

On your character sheet, it'll list your BAB as 15/20, since it shows your permanent BAB and your temporary after the slash. (Monks do this too when they're using a Ki weapon.)

I checked the numbers behind the scenes to make sure, but it's working fine. There has been no nerf to Divine Power.

SableShadow
09-29-2009, 12:40 PM
So do I - it looks like it's working entirely as expected. I use Divine Power, my swing speed increases to the BAB 20 rate.

On your character sheet, it'll list your BAB as 15/20, since it shows your permanent BAB and your temporary after the slash. (Monks do this too when they're using a Ki weapon.)

I checked the numbers behind the scenes to make sure, but it's working fine. There has been no nerf to Divine Power.

Thanks Eladrin!

maddmatt70
09-29-2009, 12:52 PM
So do I - it looks like it's working entirely as expected. I use Divine Power, my swing speed increases to the BAB 20 rate.

On your character sheet, it'll list your BAB as 15/20, since it shows your permanent BAB and your temporary after the slash. (Monks do this too when they're using a Ki weapon.)

I checked the numbers behind the scenes to make sure, but it's working fine. There has been no nerf to Divine Power.

I dislike the divine power clicky and feel it should be a short term solution with a better long term solution in the future which is more like pnp. Any possibility you devs are working on something which would make the divine power clicky uneccessary in the future?

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 01:29 PM
So do I - it looks like it's working entirely as expected. I use Divine Power, my swing speed increases to the BAB 20 rate.

On your character sheet, it'll list your BAB as 15/20, since it shows your permanent BAB and your temporary after the slash. (Monks do this too when they're using a Ki weapon.)

I checked the numbers behind the scenes to make sure, but it's working fine. There has been no nerf to Divine Power.

tyvm eladrin. it's nice to know you guys are checking bug reports quickly. do you think you can take a minute out of your time to answer my question in the Monk forum? I PM'd you a link earlier today.

Healemup
09-29-2009, 01:51 PM
And how would you compensate me for the 10 clickies I have of 5x/day in my backpack?

I would magically free up 10 inventory slots and compensate you the gp value soon(tm).

Angelus_dead
09-29-2009, 02:02 PM
I kinda like the idea of REAL BaB classes being a little up on poseur BaB classes.
That is a good objective, but things like Kensei III, Power Rage, and Tempest already achieve that.

When DDO's Divine Power spell was first given a BAB increase (mod 3 release), melee Clerics temporarily became overpowered compared to Fighters. Aside from a Haste Boost and +2 damage from Weapon Spec / Strength enhancement, their melee capabilities were basically identical. And the Cleric-Paladin comparison went even worse.

But since that time, the melee classes have received all kinds of updates bringing them back to their proper level of superiority over a DP Cleric:
PRC: Tempest, Kensei, Frenzied Berserker
Capstone: Weapon Mastery, Might
Spell: Zeal, Ram's Might
Enhancements: Favored Damage, Power Rage, Weapon Spec, Exalted Smite, Divine Might/Sac

At this point, there is plenty of space to improve the speed of a Divine Powered Cleric/FVS without infringing on the role security of melee classes.

Borror0
09-29-2009, 02:07 PM
And how would you compensate me for the 10 clickies I have of 5x/day in my backpack?
It depends what you mean by "compensate". I would just put a very, very long shared cooldown on them. You'd still have them, though.

Angelus_dead
09-29-2009, 02:16 PM
Any possibility you devs are working on something which would make the divine power clicky uneccessary in the future?
The strongest legitimate complaint here is that the Tenser's Transformation spell isn't performing the function it's meant for, which is allowing mages to fight in melee when needed. That's because of a D&D rule which is not being followed: casters in DDO are unable to dismiss their buffs early, meaning that the debuff portion of Tenser's Transformation is too big of a penalty.

There are several approaches they could take to fix this:
1. A new special "Dismiss Tenser" icon. (bad)
2. When Tenser's is up, attempting to cast it again will instead dismiss it (bad)
3. When Tensers's is up, attempting to cast any spell or clicky will dismiss it (good)
3b. Casting a spell under Tensers's doesn't dismiss it, but suppresses the benefits for 6 seconds.
4. Players can right click on buff icons to dismiss them (good)
5. Casting a spell under Tensers's works, but has +50% mana cost, casting time, and cooldown.

Any of the above changes could solve the problem, and release melee-focused Wizards and Sorcerers from reliance on a row of Divine Power clickies. That would mean that of DDO's 10 classes, only Rogues and Bards lack an ability to reach BAB 20. Both of them have a different way to get a large bonus on attack rolls, and both have UMD so they could read Tenser scrolls if they really wanted.

moorewr
09-29-2009, 02:17 PM
Eladrin - I believe the question is more whether clickies give you BAB=your actual level, or give a lower effective level now.

Phidius
09-29-2009, 02:25 PM
The strongest legitimate complaint here is that the Tenser's Transformation spell isn't performing the function it's meant for, which is allowing mages to fight in melee when needed. That's because of a D&D rule which is not being followed: casters in DDO are unable to dismiss their buffs early, meaning that the debuff portion of Tenser's Transformation is too big of a penalty.

There are several approaches they could take to fix this:
1. A new special "Dismiss Tenser" icon. (bad)
2. When Tenser's is up, attempting to cast it again will instead dismiss it (bad)
3. When Tensers's is up, attempting to cast any spell or clicky will dismiss it (good)
3b. Casting a spell under Tensers's doesn't dismiss it, but suppresses the benefits for 6 seconds.
4. Players can right click on buff icons to dismiss them (good)
5. Casting a spell under Tensers's works, but has +50% mana cost, casting time, and cooldown.

Any of the above changes could solve the problem, and release melee-focused Wizards and Sorcerers from reliance on a row of Divine Power clickies. That would mean that of DDO's 10 classes, only Rogues and Bards lack an ability to reach BAB 20. Both of them have a different way to get a large bonus on attack rolls, and both have UMD so they could read Tenser scrolls if they really wanted.

Anything that makes Tenser's workable has my support. I've always thought it odd that my casters completely eschew a level 6 spell in favor of a clerical spell in a clickie...

I prefer #5, though - how would it work with scrolls/clickies?

Angelus_dead
09-29-2009, 02:27 PM
I prefer #5, though - how would it work with scrolls/clickies?
The animation to activate the item would slow down, and the cooldown would increase from 6 to 9 seconds.

Phidius
09-29-2009, 02:46 PM
The animation to activate the item would slow down, and the cooldown would increase from 6 to 9 seconds.

Sign me up!!

sephiroth1084
09-29-2009, 07:06 PM
There has been no nerf to Divine Power.

Has there been a nerf to Solid Fog and Acid Fog?

Why was Haste nerfed?

Borror0
09-29-2009, 07:16 PM
Why was Haste nerfed?
That's an easy question: for the same reason that Dungeon Alert was added.

sephiroth1084
09-29-2009, 07:23 PM
That's an easy question: for the same reason that Dungeon Alert was added.

Haste didn't contribute directly to lag, though I'll agree that the nerf bookends well with DA. Still, with the slowdown of haste, and the reduction in attack speed overall, the game just feels so much slower. I know the latter is supposed to get fixed, but the coupling still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 09:13 PM
Why was Haste nerfed?

Numerical analysis and testing has discerned that haste wasn't nerfed. The combat system was.

FluffyCalico
09-29-2009, 09:17 PM
And how would you compensate me for the 10 clickies I have of 5x/day in my backpack?

The same way they did for all the people with w/p, or shroud true rez, or transmutting.

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 09:19 PM
The same way they did for all the people with w/p, or shroud true rez, or transmutting.

None of those were removed from the game, and they still have value (although diminished).

That's entirely different than removing them from the game and people's inventories.

Kraldor
09-29-2009, 09:19 PM
Numerical analysis and testing has discerned that haste wasn't nerfed. The combat system was.
He's talking about the haste nerf to running speed, not attack speed.

sephiroth1084
09-29-2009, 09:21 PM
Numerical analysis and testing has discerned that haste wasn't nerfed. The combat system was.

Well, in this instance I was referring to the movement speed boosting portion of haste.

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 09:22 PM
He's talking about the haste nerf to running speed, not attack speed.

As previously stated, numerical testing and in-game analysis of haste running speed has determined that haste was not nerfed. It's still 40%. I trust MrCow more than I trust my own intuition. ;)

Aspenor
09-29-2009, 09:22 PM
Well, in this instance I was referring to the movement speed boosting portion of haste.

See above post, the running speed portion of haste is completely unchanged (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2419724).

sephiroth1084
09-29-2009, 10:00 PM
See above post, the running speed portion of haste is completely unchanged (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2419724).

Then was run speed lowered, as attack speed was? There's no way that we all feel we are running slower, while maintaining the same pace.

SquelchHU
09-30-2009, 07:23 AM
I dislike the divine power clicky and feel it should be a short term solution with a better long term solution in the future which is more like pnp. Any possibility you devs are working on something which would make the divine power clicky uneccessary in the future?

Please stop saying 'more in line with pnp' when you have no idea what you are talking about. 'More like pnp' means the dreaded 'battlecleric' is actually the superior melee combatant by a large margin, and furthermore the dedicated melee combatants are inadequate to the task in addition to being inferior to the battlecleric. Granted that takes a bit more than divine power but you don't really want things working like pnp here as that would be a significant downgrade in quality and balance.

Aspenor
09-30-2009, 08:02 AM
Please stop saying 'more in line with pnp' when you have no idea what you are talking about. 'More like pnp' means the dreaded 'battlecleric' is actually the superior melee combatant by a large margin, and furthermore the dedicated melee combatants are inadequate to the task in addition to being inferior to the battlecleric. Granted that takes a bit more than divine power but you don't really want things working like pnp here as that would be a significant downgrade in quality and balance.

QFT. Let's give sorcerers and wizards Shapechange to more closely mirror PnP. Then they can change form into a red dragon, blue dragon, or any other shape that's most convenient at the time. Change into a beholder to completely negate all spellcasting attempts. Change into a pit fiend and decimate opponents in melee, and be immune to banishment while on Shavarath without Boots of Anchoring. If they've taken a little damage, change shape into many different forms randomly to gain back their lost hit points (every time you change shape, you gain hit points as if you'd rested for the night).

I'm obviously just kidding.

The clickies are fine, and not game-breaking. The first paragraph above, that is game-breaking.

Borror0
09-30-2009, 08:08 AM
The clickies are fine, and not game-breaking.
I don't think that Norg thinks that they are game breaking, but rather that they harm the player's experience by requiring the player to continually a short duration buff.

Aspenor
09-30-2009, 08:11 AM
I don't think that Norg thinks that they are game breaking, but rather that they harm the player's experience by requiring the player to continually a short duration buff.

They don't harm my playing experience, and I use them extensively. Is it really so hard to use a clickie 1x/minute? (durations are now >60 sec)

Borror0
09-30-2009, 08:32 AM
They don't harm my playing experience, and I use them extensively. Is it really so hard to use a clickie 1x/minute? (durations are now >60 sec)
Hard, no. Annoying, yes. (Note: I am used to the shorter duration. No idea for the longer one.)

Solmage
09-30-2009, 08:39 AM
As previously stated, numerical testing and in-game analysis of haste running speed has determined that haste was not nerfed. It's still 40%. I trust MrCow more than I trust my own intuition. ;)

There is no way haste was not nerfed in running speed boost. Whether this was a "fix" (for example, maybe 30% striding used to work like 20% striding should, and haste was granting 40%, or whatever) or not, the difference in running with and without it was significant. Now it's so subtle that I have people arguing it isn't even there (although I do know it is)


Has there been a nerf to Solid Fog and Acid Fog?

I believe these are completely broken right now - may be part of the new AI that makes creatures "sprint" towards you - but they don't seem to work on anything. *Sometimes* if you apply an exhaustion on some creatures THEN the fogs work on that creature.

Would be nice to have these fixed.

maddmatt70
09-30-2009, 10:57 AM
They don't harm my playing experience, and I use them extensively. Is it really so hard to use a clickie 1x/minute? (durations are now >60 sec)

The purist in me has come to detest the clicky. It basically gives an intrinsic class ability (base attack bonus) to anybody who acquires a few clickies. That is out of touch with pnp. This is like I said a short term solution because the devs have not gotten around to putting in some real prestige classes such as the eldritch knight or warchanter or etc which give full base attack bonus. It really is 'developer cheese' to band aid it up in this way. I understand the devs have limited resources, but I would like to see a longer term solution in place by mod 11 at the latest. I play pnp and honestly would not be playing DDO if it were not for the fact that it is Dungeons and Dragons and due to this game overall has done a decent job of replicating D&D.

SquelchHU
09-30-2009, 11:20 AM
The purist in me has come to detest the clicky. It basically gives an intrinsic class ability (base attack bonus) to anybody who acquires a few clickies. That is out of touch with pnp. This is like I said a short term solution because the devs have not gotten around to putting in some real prestige classes such as the eldritch knight or warchanter or etc which give full base attack bonus. It really is 'developer cheese' to band aid it up in this way. I understand the devs have limited resources, but I would like to see a longer term solution in place by mod 11 at the latest. I play pnp and honestly would not be playing DDO if it were not for the fact that it is Dungeons and Dragons and due to this game overall has done a decent job of replicating D&D.

Wrong. There are items in pnp that also allow anyone to cast any spell they desire x/day. And that's ignoring the possibility of using the Use Magic Device skill for wands/staves of any desired spell, which is a lot easier to do there. No one bothers because it isn't cost efficient to use most consumables more advanced than 'Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor' and BAB stops mattering after 15 anyways (which the 3/4ths types hit) but 'clickies' are by no means a new creation in DDO.

If you are going to insist on pnp accuracy, it helps if you are accurate in your statements.

Angelus_dead
09-30-2009, 11:46 AM
Wrong. There are items in pnp that also allow anyone to cast any spell they desire x/day.
Wrong, although this is a subtle point that many people misunderstand.

D&D does NOT allow player characters to craft a magic item allowing the wearer to cast an arbitrary spell. The only magic items that players can officially craft are ones with a specific crafting recipe included in the entry. Anything else is subject to the DM's approval.

There are guidelines to estimate what the price might be for an item giving X uses of a level Y spell, but that does not mean player characters are entitled to build a Divine Power ring. For them to do so would require a rule change from the DM.

Every custom magic item is technically a house rule. And in the case of Divine Power items, a house rule that the DM would be mistaken to approve. Advancing to full BAB is obviously a major benefit for 3/4ths melee classes, so if it were acceptable for that to happen, the magic items to do so would already have been included in the regular treasure lists.

Angelus_dead
09-30-2009, 11:51 AM
Please stop saying 'more in line with pnp' when you have no idea what you are talking about. 'More like pnp' means the dreaded 'battlecleric' is actually the superior melee combatant
He's not wrong, although neither are you. "Like PnP" is actually a large target that contradicts itself in places.

The intention of the D&D game design was that Fighters and Barbarians would be better at melee than Clerics and Druids. Because of various mistakes, that didn't happen, and the correct choice of magic abilities put the divine casters over the top.

But that is a bug. The objectives and the implementation in PnP diverged, so moving DDO closer to one of them does not mean it isn't closer to D&D. It is valid to put more weight on what the D&D designers were trying to do than what they actually achieved.

gpk
10-01-2009, 12:00 AM
My suggestions would be to remove divine power clickies from the game, make sure the divine power spell works properly for clerics/fvs and add arcane prestige enhancements which add to melee dps. That is the better (mirrors pnp) and more comprehensive solution.

Only took 1.5 years for you to come arounnd and agree w/ me ;)

Posts starting here-ish http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1637985#post1637985
What made you change your mind?

(Ya I was bored and checked the DDO forums/dev tracker)

SquelchHU
10-01-2009, 06:50 AM
He's not wrong, although neither are you. "Like PnP" is actually a large target that contradicts itself in places.

The intention of the D&D game design was that Fighters and Barbarians would be better at melee than Clerics and Druids. Because of various mistakes, that didn't happen, and the correct choice of magic abilities put the divine casters over the top.

But that is a bug. The objectives and the implementation in PnP diverged, so moving DDO closer to one of them does not mean it isn't closer to D&D. It is valid to put more weight on what the D&D designers were trying to do than what they actually achieved.

Funny how that guy gave me negative rep for correcting his false statements. Thought that system was meant to be a measure of credibility. Anyways.

Advancing beyond 15 BAB in PnP amounts to a trivial benefit for the simple reason that attack bonuses for attack chains go down and not up. That last attack at -15 to hit is not going to be hitting much. That leaves the only use for BAB being attack bonus - except that there are many ways to get that. Clerics have buffing spells, Druids also have buffing spells (and are collectively known as CoDzilla due to being the best at melee combat... imagine that), Bards have buffing spells though not nearly as good as the previous two, Rogues just attack touch flat footed AC and not care. Monks don't have any of those things and for that reason combined with some other failings that further reduce their melee capacity end up the worst melee classes (even lower than sorcerers and wizards) and the worst class in general.

A Divine Power item would cost 56,000 gold which is substantial in PnP, would require a round to turn on, and would only last for seven rounds. That's not overpowered - that's pretty damn weak.

Yes, full BAB classes being inadequate to the task is a bug, but it came about due to overvaluing BAB and assigning massive opportunity costs to full BAB. Given that you are also overvaluing full BAB...

And if you really want to get technical about it, DDO has already fixed it. Now attack bonuses go up instead of down, so the last attack isn't a largely worthless hail mary. Of course the last attack was still useless for a while because it was so slow, but that got changed too. As for the Divine Power - hey, if someone wants to shuffle items around about every ninety seconds, let em. They're probably losing a good bit of the DPS gain in that swap time anyways.

But the biggest strike against the 'make it more like PnP' crowd is that NOT doing so has made the game better balanced. Do you really think classes like the Fighter and the Ranger would be nearly as useful if it were not for all the super gear? Why no - the fact you get about as much wealth from a single mission as a PnP character of that level has in total over their entire career is what's allowing them to gear up to acceptable levels. Even after you take into consideration most of that stuff will get sold for ~15% of its value that still amounts to a lot more stuff. Surprise, characters that are gear dependent need a lot of stuff. Before they couldn't get that, now they can.

Put bluntly, this would be a horrible game if it were like PnP because you'd get all the balance problems such as over half the classes being useless but without any sort of ability to fix that, or to do non combat things or whatever. All the drawbacks, none of the benefits.

rimble
10-01-2009, 08:20 AM
That's because of a D&D rule which is not being followed: casters in DDO are unable to dismiss their buffs early, meaning that the debuff portion of Tenser's Transformation is too big of a penalty.

For what it's worth, you can't dismiss PnP Transformation early either. Of course that doesn't mean you can't allow it in DDO. I still think DP clickies are too powerful.

BlackRage
10-01-2009, 08:27 AM
None of those were removed from the game, and they still have value (although diminished).

That's entirely different than removing them from the game and people's inventories.

Transmuting was indeed removed... :rolleyes:

maddmatt70
10-01-2009, 12:57 PM
Funny how that guy gave me negative rep for correcting his false statements. Thought that system was meant to be a measure of credibility. Anyways.



I did not give out negative rep heck I do not think I even have enough rep to give out negative rep if I wanted to. Angelus is right on regarding his analysis. Anyway have a nice day.

maddmatt70
10-01-2009, 01:00 PM
Only took 1.5 years for you to come arounnd and agree w/ me ;)

Posts starting here-ish http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1637985#post1637985
What made you change your mind?

(Ya I was bored and checked the DDO forums/dev tracker)

You are correct GPK I changed my mind. Really what changed my mind was when the prestige enhancement came out which meant a far better solution would become available.