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zarlokk
09-25-2009, 05:50 PM
Anyone that has played the PnP version of D&D when asked what stands out most about the drow's abilities, will without hesitation mention their innate resistance to magic. But from what I've seen in DDO so far, it really doesn't seem to add up.

First, if I recall right in the PnP drows get a base 11 MR, and then gain an additional 1 MR every level after. So stopping at level 20 they would have 31 MR. But from my reading of the MR on the drow, they will be capped at 20 which can be easilly outdone by a spell... a spell that won't stack with the innate bonus.

From my experiences actually playing the PnP drow will have at a minimum a 1/3 chance against the most difficult NPCs and often a 1/2 chance to resist spells (assuming they are the resistible variant of spells).

Dwarves are the real drow in this game, bizarrely enough. Because their resistance has been translated directly into all saves and is a flat bonus that will always be useful.

This all seems very, very, un-PnP like.

Angelus_dead
09-25-2009, 05:58 PM
Anyone that has played the PnP version of D&D when asked what stands out most about the drow's abilities, will without hesitation mention their innate resistance to magic.
That's something that's very prominent when looking at the Monster Manual entry and comparing them to the usual races.

But once you actually build an adventuring character as Drow, what is most obvious is that he's still level 3 when everyone else is 5, which is a crippling lack of class features.

However, your core complaint is pretty valid: the Drow racial SR available to adventures in DDO is too weak to be useful. I will go repeat my old suggestion to fix it, in another thread.

zarlokk
09-25-2009, 06:15 PM
That's something that's very prominent when looking at the Monster Manual entry and comparing them to the usual races.

But once you actually build an adventuring character as Drow, what is most obvious is that he's still level 3 when everyone else is 5, which is a crippling lack of class features.

However, your core complaint is pretty valid: the Drow racial SR available to adventures in DDO is too weak to be useful. I will go repeat my old suggestion to fix it, in another thread.

Well, the level adjustment thing would br translated to something like a 10% exp penalty since the cap is 20. But than you would have to actually make "vision related" issues that are much more common in D&D which also do not translate into the game very well(Darkvision). Then you also have all their at-will magical abilities/cantrips which also are not translated at all, and aren't they innately ambidextrous, too? I always played casters so I don't remember that. But they get a whole host of bonuses that are not translated at all. Which is fine and not a big deal. But magic resistance is absolutely vital to the mystique of Drow, as much as regeneration is to a troll.

baddax
09-25-2009, 06:25 PM
I would be very happy to have Drow Spell resistance fixed, Even if it ment taking 10% longer to level a drow character.

Dont get me wrong i like my Drow Builds but fixing SR would make them more worth playing than ever. As it is they are a forgotten speedbump onto bigger and badder 32 point characters.

zooble
09-26-2009, 01:06 AM
slower leveling wouldnt be possible in this game
if it just takes more time for a uber char then everyone would do it

if you play nwn singleplayer you were capped by the sheer number of mobs/quests so a drow would never get as high level as other races by the end of the game.

a translation to this game would mean a slower leveling and a level cap of say 18-19 for drow but then people would complain about that even more seeing as their char would never reach the limit of all the other races.

KiraSaint
09-26-2009, 01:09 AM
they should fix drows SR, but they should also cap drow lvls at 18 AND give them 10% exp penalty, that would be the only accurate way to translate the lvl ajustment.

mediocresurgeon
09-26-2009, 01:16 AM
If you were to ask me what the defining trait of a Drow is in PnP, it would be their ability score adjustments.

But then again, I always played the Level Adjustment +0 version posted on the WotC website, because I hate being 2 levels behind everybody else.

Really, though, Spell Resistance just isn't as useful in DDO as it is in PnP. In PnP, you get to use your SR versus 90% of spells. In DDO, you do not get to use SR versus damaging spells, and the ultra-common Freedom of Movement+Deathward+Greater Heroism combo pretty much grants immunity to all other spells anyway.

Also, in PnP the Spell Resistance spell grants you a higher spell resistance than a drow of equal level. So at least DDO kept that part the same.

Brennie
09-26-2009, 02:10 AM
I thought the defining characteristic of draw was either A) their unhealthy obsession with all things arachnid (To the point of becoming centaur-drow-spider-things, and worshipping a spider goddess), or B) the fact that years of no sunlight somehow *accelerated* their melanin rather than depleating it... thus becoming the only creatures in existence (I think?) to not become albino from evolving in a sunlight-less environment.

baddax
09-26-2009, 03:09 AM
they should fix drows SR, but they should also cap drow lvls at 18 AND give them 10% exp penalty, that would be the only accurate way to translate the lvl ajustment.

Is Drow SR really that powerful?
If so you would think there would be WAY more monks in this game...

bobbryan2
09-26-2009, 03:51 AM
Personally, I think they should just adjust Drow SR to meet the cleric spell Spell Resistance and call it could. Drow get an innate ability that most casters could keep up on them in a quest, and it's good.

TinyHowie
09-26-2009, 04:28 AM
Dwarves are the real drow in this game, bizarrely enough. Because their resistance has been translated directly into all saves and is a flat bonus that will always be useful.


I resent this statement.

Gleipner
09-26-2009, 04:34 AM
This all seems very, very, un-PnP like. Spot on this is not PnP this is: Dungeons and Dragons Online, so if you want PnP rules you play PnP. The list on how many things that are different then PnP is just to long and not worth going in to (unless you like trolling).

issiana
09-26-2009, 04:48 AM
I resent this statement.

resent or resemble it, lol.

i agree with the op. drow SR is a bit broke. sure its really useful at low lvls, and i do find it amazing in a permadeath setting, but once you get a cleric/FvS in group with SR loaded up its pointless to have the drow ability and i always respec out of it.

please devs make it just like the PnP rules or easier yet, code it to act like the clerical SR spell, that shouldn't be that hard?

TinyHowie
09-26-2009, 05:05 AM
please devs make it just like the PnP rules or easier yet, code it to act like the clerical SR spell, that shouldn't be that hard?

You want to cap yourself at level 18? no +2 to dex nor -2 to con?

Drow itself was not designed for players. They simply gave you an option, that if you want to gimp yourself go ahead. They are monsters by design.

bobbryan2
09-26-2009, 05:07 AM
You want to cap yourself at level 18? no +2 to dex nor -2 to con?

Drow itself was not designed for players. They simply gave you an option, that if you want to gimp yourself go ahead. They are monsters by design.

Not in DDO...

Drow was specifically designed for players...

TinyHowie
09-26-2009, 05:09 AM
Not in DDO...

Drow was specifically designed for players...

Exactly, so asking it to be PnP like is unrealistic.

bobbryan2
09-26-2009, 05:12 AM
Exactly, so asking it to be PnP like is unrealistic.

But it remains a valid point that Dwarves are actually better resistant to spells than Drow in their current incarnation.

It's long been accepted as undeniable fact that DDO's version of Drow SR was hopelessly underpowered. I don't think anyone's asking for Drow to gain near immunity to most magic from trash mobs, like they would have in PnP... but I don't think it's too much to ask that they perform at least as well as a Lvl Adjustment 0 race.

TinyHowie
09-26-2009, 05:20 AM
But it remains a valid point that Dwarves are actually better resistant to spells than Drow in their current incarnation.

It's long been accepted as undeniable fact that DDO's version of Drow SR was hopelessly underpowered. I don't think anyone's asking for Drow to gain near immunity to most magic from trash mobs, like they would have in PnP... but I don't think it's too much to ask that they perform at least as well as a Lvl Adjustment 0 race.

As a level adjustment 0 race, you think that's not enough? +2 saving throws is big? At high end elites? come on, when they are all 5 caster levels above you, with 10 higher spell save DC, I don't believe dwarf would do any better than drow.

bobbryan2
09-26-2009, 05:22 AM
As a level adjustment 0 race, you think that's not enough? +2 saving throws is big? At high end elites? come on, when they are all 5 caster levels above you, with 10 higher spell save DC, I don't believe dwarf would do any better than drow.

You don't think that dwarves ever make a save in high level content? And that the very notion of saves is ridiculous, because everyone fails them all the time?

Is that what you're saying?

Because otherwise, +2 saving throws is infinitely bigger than spell resistance that is so low it doesn't even go off when the enemy rolls a 1.

TinyHowie
09-26-2009, 05:34 AM
You don't think that dwarves ever make a save in high level content? And that the very notion of saves is ridiculous, because everyone fails them all the time?

Is that what you're saying?

Because otherwise, +2 saving throws is infinitely bigger than spell resistance that is so low it doesn't even go off when the enemy rolls a 1.

No. I'm saying dwarves's bonus is not more determining than the spell resistance for drow. Being able to play a drow is a plus, asking it to be more useful than a +0 level adjustment race is unreasonable.

bobbryan2
09-26-2009, 05:43 AM
No. I'm saying dwarves's bonus is not more determining than the spell resistance for drow. Being able to play a drow is a plus, asking it to be more useful than a +0 level adjustment race is unreasonable.

How would making Drow SR mirror the divine spell make it more useful than a lvl adj 0 race?

Dwarves would 'still' be better against spells if a cleric cast the spell on them.

How is that request unreasonable?

baddax
09-26-2009, 06:53 AM
An easy fix would be to code it the same, or Similar to the monk SR. (10 + monk level)

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat diamond_Soul

As another poster pointed out that drow SR was pobably useful when the level Cap was 10 or below, that point and time is long gone. Now if you tell someone who knows Anything about the game that you have your drow SR ability maxed you will be laughed at like the gimp your character probably is!

1) DDO implemented the Drow as a playable race.
2) DDO implimented drow SR as a player ability.

When i first started playing the level was 10, unlocking the drow was supposed to be an achievment as 400 favor was alot easier to get than the 1750 required for the 32 point unlock (of course there was no DDO store easy button). Back then there was less quests and it was more difficult to earn your 1750 favor. Almost all quests had to be done on elite. Now if you run the main xp quests stop and run your "favor" quests on hard or elite then by the time you are done you should be close to unlocking your 32 point build. This was simply not the case 3+ years ago.

As for DDO vs PNP this is a very old debate. Of course DDO is not PNP, it is BASED off of PNP. To believe otherwise is foolish. I believe most long time forum posters on here will agree that, when Possible DDO Should follow PNP rules.However since this is not PNP there is specific times when this is not possible or benificial to game balance as a whole. In those specific times it is definitely acceptable for DDO to break from traditional rules and make the changes necessary to make this a fun and successful mmo.

baddax
09-26-2009, 07:02 AM
As a level adjustment 0 race, you think that's not enough? +2 saving throws is big? At high end elites? come on, when they are all 5 caster levels above you, with 10 higher spell save DC, I don't believe dwarf would do any better than drow.

This is a very true statement.
From this statement,and your join date, it is obvious that you are guesseing as you obviously dont know. i have 3 mostly capped drow characters and cannot ever recall EVER seeing the Blue outline of a failed mob SR check at End Game!

whysper
09-26-2009, 07:08 AM
This is a very true statement.
From this statement,and your join date, it is obvious that you are guesseing as you obviously dont know. i have 3 mostly capped drow characters and cannot ever recall EVER seeing the Blue outline of a failed mob SR check at End Game!
You spent the Enhancement points to max out your SR?

baddax
09-26-2009, 07:12 AM
/facepalm!

gorloch
09-26-2009, 09:14 AM
Also for some who may not know/remember drow sr used to scale per level up till they came out with enhancements. They found that the sr of the drow was making drow a bit over powered so they toned it down a bit and put the gaining of additional sr in the enhancements in case someone who made the drow was wanting to have a higher sr. I know it doesn't match the pnp version but as many have said this is DDO not pnp.


PIXA

Aumvaar
09-26-2009, 11:33 AM
However since this is not PNP there is specific times when this is not possible or benificial to game balance as a whole. In those specific times it is definitely acceptable for DDO to break from traditional rules and make the changes necessary to make this a fun and successful mmo.

I think this is the most insightful & correct statement made throughout the entire thread. Much whiney forum drama could be avoided, if people would simply keep this concept in mind before they complain.

SquelchHU
09-26-2009, 11:44 AM
The irony of all this is that Drow's reduced spell resistance is at best no less effective than PnPs higher spell resistance. Which is to say, not effective at all.

If you would like to know why ask, but those familiar with PnP should already know.

baddax
09-26-2009, 12:13 PM
Fimiliar with pnp but its been a long time so ill bite, why is drow spell resistance ineffective in pnp?

Aumvaar
09-26-2009, 12:31 PM
If you would like to know why ask, but those familiar with PnP should already know.

I'm not familiar with 4.0, but in previous editions, I never thought of Drow SR as being "not very effective at all" in PnP. Is this a 4.0 thing, or just something I missed?

bobbryan2
09-27-2009, 03:46 AM
Fimiliar with pnp but its been a long time so ill bite, why is drow spell resistance ineffective in pnp?

Because he runs campaigns without enemy spellcasters?

SquelchHU
09-27-2009, 08:48 AM
Fimiliar with pnp but its been a long time so ill bite, why is drow spell resistance ineffective in pnp?

Put simply, in PnP the most effective spells are SR: No anyways. In fact the only categories of spells that do not feature multiple such options within the core books alone are spells that do damage only and spells that directly kill the enemy. Since spells that do damage only are the worst things you could possibly cast by far, and direct kills are not significantly better than indirect kills (which also work on a wider variety of enemies, as fewer things are immune to them) you lose nothing by doing this.

If for some reason you were fixated on Finger of Death or Fireball though you still have options, since there are many ways of boosting your caster level and therefore your ability to bypass spell resistance also without leaving core. And if you do leave it you have your choice of the ability to take 10 on caster level checks at any level (SR is a caster level check) which means you add a few points of bonus and then automatically succeed against anything or the ability to add 10 to your check at any level 7th or higher which is not as good as the first option because it only becomes available later and costs resources whereas the first method is 'always on'. That's the feat Arcane Mastery and the spell Assay Spell Resistance.

Not that you need either of these non core options to pull off spell resistance bypassing, they're just there if you really want to be a necromancer or evoker and don't care that it's weak.

This is also one of the many reasons why PnP Monks are terribly weak classes.

Combine it with the low HP and saves of a drow since they lose HD and lose Con and the result is that encounters with Drow turn out easy, even and especially if they were not supposed to and this is without them being too busy fighting each other to fight you when used as an enemy.

When used as a player character, it's quite likely that the only spells that will get blocked by it are beneficial spells cast by your allies on you in combat as most beneficial spells are of a divine nature which disqualifies Arcane Mastery and no one wants to spend additional resources working around what is supposed to be a positive racial feature. And given that the most likely candidate for such beneficial spells is healing spells to save your character's life...

In DDO most of the good spells are SR: Yes so it does actually come up, and neither that feat nor that spell exist so you cannot just ignore it. Drow SR turns out weak in DDO because they don't get much of it, but if they did it would actually manage to be too good. On the bright side they don't lose any levels, which makes them playable.

4th edition doesn't have any such thing as spell resistance, and is really just DDO set at 5% speed. DDO is good, DDO slowed by a factor of 20 is not.

Angelus_dead
09-27-2009, 08:55 AM
Put simply, in PnP the most effective spells are SR: No anyways.
That is totally false, unless you're talking about cherry-picking from non-core books. (Or you're talking about buffs like Shapechange. Or if you mean stuff like Gate, but that's simply an exploit)


In fact the only categories of spells that do not feature multiple such options within the core books alone are spells that do damage only and spells that directly kill the enemy.
Ok, what are some of those great no-SR spells?

And remember, since you say you're going by "core" books, you are limited not only to PHB spells, but also spells listed in Monster Manual entries.

Angelus_dead
09-27-2009, 09:04 AM
Drow SR turns out weak in DDO because they don't get much of it, but if they did it would actually manage to be too good.
Untrue.

Drow SR is -1 below what a Cleric can trivially throw out with Mass SR, so for balance purposes Drow SR is only an advantage in those narrow situations where the monsters both have good dispelling AND offensive non-damaging casting. That's a handy feature, but not amazing.


4th edition ... is really just DDO set at 5% speed. DDO is good, DDO slowed by a factor of 20 is not.
That's just hilariously untrue. It might be more accurate to say that 4e is MTG with figures...

Astria
09-27-2009, 09:06 AM
And remember, since you say you're going by "core" books, you are limited not only to PHB spells, but also spells listed in Monster Manual entries.

Obviously, his DM is allowing very interesting uses of "create water".

Twerpp
09-27-2009, 09:16 AM
32pt > Drow. I realize its a low favor reward but it kinda sucks they seem to be well below any other race built at 32 points value.

SquelchHU
09-27-2009, 09:19 AM
That is totally false, unless you're talking about cherry-picking from non-core books. (Or you're talking about buffs like Shapechange. Or if you mean stuff like Gate, but that's simply an exploit)


Ok, what are some of those great no-SR spells?

And remember, since you say you're going by "core" books, you are limited not only to PHB spells, but also spells listed in Monster Manual entries.

I'll start by directing you to Conjuration. Yes, the entire school. And no I don't mean 'Create Water'. It starts at Glitterdust and goes from there. At levels 1 and 2 you have Color Spray which does not ignore spell resistance, but then how many level 1 and 2 enemies have any spell resistance at all? 3+, you can completely ignore it at every level and not only will you still be a great caster, you will not be any less great than if you were using SR: Yes spells and in many cases will be more so.

Gate is one example of many.

Drow SR that actually worked would be, by your own admission getting a level... what is it? 13 class ability at level 1. That's the trouble with binary features - they either end up too good by far, or too weak by far with no middle ground.

As for the 4th edition comment... let's see...

4th edition: Entirely or almost entirely focused on combat consisting of smacking the enemy 20 or more times to actually kill it.

DDO: Entirely or almost entirely focused on combat consisting of smacking the enemy 20 or more times to actually kill it... difference being it's a real time game, so killing the enemy in this scenario takes a few seconds instead of half an hour.

Making fast paced combat a slugfest is acceptable, even desirable else all the enemies would be dead between the time the first guy got to them and the time the rest did. Doing the same to combat that is much slower to begin with, and not adding the other things that give tabletop its appeal is simply going to result in a table of sleeping players.

Stripping out the non combat stuff is acceptable in a computer game due to programming limitations. Yet, 4th edition is a computer game with dice instead of processing chips, ergo 'DDO at 5% speed'. And really, that's an overestimate.

Angelus_dead
09-27-2009, 09:28 AM
I'll start by directing you to Conjuration. Yes, the entire school. And no I don't mean 'Create Water'. It starts at Glitterdust and goes from there. At levels 1 and 2 you have Color Spray which does not ignore spell resistance, but then how many level 1 and 2 enemies have any spell resistance at all? 3+, you can completely ignore it at every level and not only will you still be a great caster, you will not be any less great than if you were using SR: Yes spells and in many cases will be more so.
Guh. I was afraid you were going to say something that senseless.

The subject is spell resistance for player characters.


Drow SR that actually worked would be, by your own admission getting a level... what is it? 13 class ability at level 1.
False. Drow SR scales with level. The fact that monks obtain SR are level 13 cannot be used to prove that SR is overpowered below level 13... because monks also get Feather Fall at level 20.


As for the 4th edition comment... let's see...

4th edition: Entirely or almost entirely focused on combat consisting of smacking the enemy 20 or more times to actually kill it.

DDO: Entirely or almost entirely focused on combat consisting of smacking the enemy 20 or more times to actually kill it... difference being it's a real time game, so killing the enemy in this scenario takes a few seconds instead of half an hour.
The hilarity continues.

I had been afraid you'd say something like that: using the removal of S&D Batman exploits to equate two very different game systems.

SquelchHU
09-27-2009, 09:39 AM
And in PnP the enemies can do the same things you can and have the sense to do so. Any point that applies against enemy spell resistance also applies against PC spell resistance.

Mass Spell Resistance is a level 7 spell, is it not? Level 13 ability, as I said. And what do you know, it scales with caster level and thus level. I don't know why you're bringing Monks into it when that was a response to Mass Spell Resistance. Other than to argue against something I never said to begin with that is.

But my apologies, I was under the impression you actually did not understand but wanted to. I realize now you were just trolling me. Well played.

baddax
09-27-2009, 10:02 AM
I'll start by directing you to Conjuration. Yes, the entire school. And no I don't mean 'Create Water'. It starts at Glitterdust and goes from there. At levels 1 and 2 you have Color Spray which does not ignore spell resistance, but then how many level 1 and 2 enemies have any spell resistance at all? 3+, you can completely ignore it at every level and not only will you still be a great caster, you will not be any less great than if you were using SR: Yes spells and in many cases will be more so.

Gate is one example of many.

Drow SR that actually worked would be, by your own admission getting a level... what is it? 13 class ability at level 1. That's the trouble with binary features - they either end up too good by far, or too weak by far with no middle ground.

As for the 4th edition comment... let's see...

4th edition: Entirely or almost entirely focused on combat consisting of smacking the enemy 20 or more times to actually kill it.

DDO: Entirely or almost entirely focused on combat consisting of smacking the enemy 20 or more times to actually kill it... difference being it's a real time game, so killing the enemy in this scenario takes a few seconds instead of half an hour.

Making fast paced combat a slugfest is acceptable, even desirable else all the enemies would be dead between the time the first guy got to them and the time the rest did. Doing the same to combat that is much slower to begin with, and not adding the other things that give tabletop its appeal is simply going to result in a table of sleeping players.

Stripping out the non combat stuff is acceptable in a computer game due to programming limitations. Yet, 4th edition is a computer game with dice instead of processing chips, ergo 'DDO at 5% speed'. And really, that's an overestimate.

I have said this before DDO could use the monk as a template. Monks get SR of 10 plus monk level at level 12 i believe. If its not game breaking for them then how would it be for Drow?


Also are you saying that healing spells are required to pass a SR check to be effective on a SR resistant character?

Monkey_Archer
09-27-2009, 10:16 AM
I have said this before DDO could use the monk as a template. Monks get SR of 10 plus monk level at level 12 i believe. If its not game breaking for them then how would it be for Drow?


I would agree with that. 10+level is basically 2 less then what spell resistance (cleric spell) gives. In addition, make the enhancments each give a +2 stacking SR (basically allowing drow to have 6 higher SR then any other character)

SquelchHU
09-27-2009, 10:33 AM
I have said this before DDO could use the monk as a template. Monks get SR of 10 plus monk level at level 12 i believe. If its not game breaking for them then how would it be for Drow?


Also are you saying that healing spells are required to pass a SR check to be effective on a SR resistant character?

Well for starters, the Drow has an option to be a class that doesn't suck. There is a significant opportunity cost to anything that 'gets feather fall at level 20' after all.

And yes, in PnP the other main category of spells that are SR: Yes are beneficial spells. While turning your spell resistance off outside of combat is not a problem, in combat it is. Therefore the most likely spells to be blocked by your 'beneficial' class feature are the genuinely beneficial ones. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

In DDO, not a problem. But this again demonstrates the binary nature of spell resistance.

There's just not any way to get binary features right as there is not enough room to balance between 'on' and 'off' to get decent design work.

Aumvaar
09-27-2009, 10:46 AM
And in PnP the enemies can do the same things you can and have the sense to do so.

Most monsters & enemies in PnP should not, however, be allowed to do so. IMO, DMs should be very careful about what feats they assign to which monsters, how they run those monsters, & so forth. I think that in particular, feats such as Spell Penetration & so forth should only be assigned to truly dangerous spell-caster "bosses" which the DM wishes to be particularly memorable.

Otherwise, the sense of being a "hero" quickly disappears, in the face of continuous onslaughts of monsters that are almost as good as you are.

Aumvaar
09-27-2009, 10:56 AM
And yes, in PnP the other main category of spells that are SR: Yes are beneficial spells

& in PnP, the DM has the ability to change that, along with anything & everything else about the game. In PnP, there is no such thing as a "rule", only "guidelines."

Edit: Actually, with this in mind, a DM could simply rule that Drow PCs don't have any SR at all, because they're no longer exposed to the high levels of whatever-it-was in the Drow homeland that causes Drow to have SR. Considering all the other benefits Drow have, I think that's a relatively fair tradeoff.

whysper
09-27-2009, 10:59 AM
And yes, in PnP the other main category of spells that are SR: Yes are beneficial spells. While turning your spell resistance off outside of combat is not a problem, in combat it is.
Oft-overlooked detail, yep. The "harmless" descriptor does not mean automatic SR success.

SquelchHU
09-27-2009, 11:09 AM
Most monsters & enemies in PnP should not, however, be allowed to do so. IMO, DMs should be very careful about what feats they assign to which monsters, how they run those monsters, & so forth. I think that in particular, feats such as Spell Penetration & so forth should only be assigned to truly dangerous spell-caster "bosses" which the DM wishes to be particularly memorable.

Otherwise, the sense of being a "hero" quickly disappears, in the face of continuous onslaughts of monsters that are almost as good as you are.

So in other words, you need to hand enemies that are supposed to be highly intelligent and dangerous one of these (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotBall) in order for them to not easily bypass something that is otherwise easily bypassed, and even then only the evokers and necromancers care at all since everyone else can just use a SR: No effect?

Also if your definition of being a 'hero' is 'curbstomping people too stupid to pose any threat to you' then first I would ask you to use the correct definition of words, as that one doesn't mean what you think it means. After that I would direct you to the rules about CR, where it is already a default assumption of the game that you will fight those much weaker than yourself and it even goes so far as to explicitly tell you players are expected to run away from those that are their equals or betters.

The only way your statement would be true is if you regularly fought encounters of BBEG level. And no one is saying you should. But regardless, it isn't even a combo as combos by definition consist of multiple parts. One spell, or one feat.

Even after you correct your definition, I still want to know what is 'heroic' about fighting enemies so stupid they're lucky to not fall on their own swords when attacking you. Because you're asking for the enemies in your tabletop games to function like MMORPG MOBs. If you wanted that you would not be playing tabletop, you'd be playing the game this forum exists for discussing. And there's not any problem with DDO doing it that way, since there's never any expectation of being 'heroic' in an MMORPG. Those are there for grinding out XP and loot. Different expectations.

Not to mention that having to change the rules in the first place is an admission the rules as they existed before the change were not working, therefore you are conceding the argument.

Edit: One more thing about SR. You do automatically ignore your own, so you can buff and heal yourself. It's just if anyone else wants to do it it becomes a problem. When dealing with player characters, usually the ones that have spell resistance cannot also cast spells on themselves so this rarely comes up. It happens a lot more with the enemies, but due to certain assumptions about the game it's rare for enemies to buff anyone other than themselves.

Aumvaar
09-27-2009, 11:19 AM
Also if your definition of being a 'hero' is 'curbstomping people too stupid to pose any threat to you'

The Kobolds in "Kobold Assault" are too stupid to pose any threat to me, individually, & individually, curbstomping them is not heroic.

Bring them in waves of 15+, with multiple Shaman that all have Spell Penetration, & their stupidity doesn't matter, because the sheer numbers, combined with Spell Penetrating Shaman, are going to crush me quickly. That is why those Shaman shouldn't have Spell Penetration. Beating 15+ Kobolds along with a few Shaman is heroic; trying to do the same when all the Shaman have Spell Penetration is likely suicidal, & the last I heard, only a very few people in a very few PnP situations consider the suicidal option to be anywhere near "heroic."

Facing the big, bad, evil genius Arch-Lich? Yes, that critter should have Spell Penetration & a whole host of other nasty feats. But the couple of Human Wizzie lackies protecting him? They're nowhere near as tough; that's why they're lackies for an Arch-Lich. Maybe one of them has Spell Penetration at a lower level, or maybe he's got Spell Focus or something, but he doesn't have the same +4 Spell Penetration the Lich has.

In any event, the base of what I said is true: just because monsters "can" do everything a PC can do, does not mean they should, & I think it's a sign of a highly inexperienced DM to allow them to do so. The whole point of Feats, anyway -- at least as I see them -- is to allow characters to be "customized." If every freekin' spell-casting NPC has Spell Penetration ... where's the customization? You might as well just cookie-cutter your world, & DMs who rely on cookie-cutter worlds are cookie-cutter DMs, not people with whom I would want to play.

But that's just me, in my gaming. The beauty of PnP is that my world doesn't have to be the same as yours. We don't get that beauty in DDO, because we're all dealing with Turbine's world, which means that people need to either adapt to Turbine's world, or else find a different DM.

Edit: I mentioned "Kobold Assault", which is obviously a DDO quest, but my point is that if I were going to run a group of suitably-leveled PCs through a similar PnP scenario, then the Kobold Shamans would not get Spell Penetration -- or any other feats that significantly modify spell casting -- for precisely the reasons I stated.

Edit 2: A quick check of my old Monster Manual -- not sure what edition, but it was published in 2000 -- lists Kobolds as having only Alertness. You could, of course, assign Spell Penetration or other such feats to particular Kobolds, but in general, they did not at that time have "the same" abilities as PCs did. IOW, you do not have to hand your mobs any sort of "stupidity inducer" to make them function properly; you just need to run them properly.

zarlokk
09-27-2009, 04:50 PM
They gotta do something, just for the flavor. A drow without good spell resists is like a troll without without regenration. They are gonna need to give drow a 30(not 32) point build on top of their starting stats because the way hit point scaling works in this game(radically different scaling than PnP), everyone is going to take a minimum of 14 con. PErsonally, I'd rather they just make the drow, drow, which means highly spell resistant. I think dwarves get like +6 to all saves versus spells at 20. This is bordering on a balance issue, but is a huge "lavor/lore issue as well.

whysper
09-27-2009, 05:02 PM
Spend the APs on boosting your Spell Resistance and see where that gets you on your quest for invincibility.

zarlokk
09-27-2009, 05:07 PM
Maybe they should just let the initial racial SR drow get stack with the SR spell buffs.

DoctorWhofan
09-27-2009, 05:12 PM
bah! I cast spell resistance with my drow cleric...

SquelchHU
09-27-2009, 05:25 PM
*irrelevant points removed*

Edit 2: A quick check of my old Monster Manual -- not sure what edition, but it was published in 2000 -- lists Kobolds as having only Alertness. You could, of course, assign Spell Penetration or other such feats to particular Kobolds, but in general, they did not at that time have "the same" abilities as PCs did. IOW, you do not have to hand your mobs any sort of "stupidity inducer" to make them function properly; you just need to run them properly.

And kobold warrior 1s do not have spellcasting levels, because they are warrior 1s. Since we're discussing Shamans, we are clearly discussing a different sort of kobold than the rank and file mooks, so trying to make out as if they should or should not have anything based on an irrelevant monster entry is arguing against a fabricated point.

Whenever you're ready to address my points and not something that isn't even a reasonable facsimile, let me know.

baddax
09-27-2009, 07:51 PM
& in PnP, the DM has the ability to change that, along with anything & everything else about the game. In PnP, there is no such thing as a "rule", only "guidelines."

Edit: Actually, with this in mind, a DM could simply rule that Drow PCs don't have any SR at all, because they're no longer exposed to the high levels of whatever-it-was in the Drow homeland that causes Drow to have SR. Considering all the other benefits Drow have, I think that's a relatively fair tradeoff.

plz list these "other benifits" in DDO that drow have compared to a 32 point similar build.
He could also rule that incomming healing spells were not limited to an SR check. Just as incoming benificial spells are not limited by Saving throws as the character is doing nothing to avoid said spell.

issiana
09-27-2009, 08:57 PM
bah! I cast spell resistance with my drow cleric...

same. that fact alone should prove how useless drow inherrant SR is.

its a waste of ap's once you get to a level where SR as a clerical spell becomes useful. below that point though i do still use it as some SR is better than non :)

whysper
09-28-2009, 06:30 AM
plz list these "other benifits" in DDO that drow have compared to a 32 point similar build.
Depending on your build, the Drow can be 34-38 points' worth.


He could also rule that incomming healing spells were not limited to an SR check.
In the fine tradition of breaking internal logic in favour of making the PCs more AWESOME, sure.

Aumvaar
09-28-2009, 10:15 AM
And kobold warrior 1s do not have spellcasting levels, because they are warrior 1s. Since we're discussing Shamans

The point remains -- I didn't make it stunningly obvious, because I wanted to believe you're capable of drawing a proper inference -- that you not only do not have to give every freekin' Kobold Shaman feats like Spell Penetration, it's a BAD idea to do so. I'd even say that a PnP DM who does that is a very poor DM. However, next time & JUST FOR YOU, I'll be sure to distinguish clearly between spell-casting Kobolds & non-spellcasting Kobolds ... though, seriously, since my whole point was about Spell Penetration, it shouldn't take a very bright bulb to figure out I was referring to Kobold Shamans.

To Baddaxe: when I referred to "the other benefits" that Drow have ... I wasn't talking about DDO Drow, but PnP Drow. In fact, the entire sub-discussion betweein SquelchHU & I is about PnP gaming, not DDO.

baddax
09-28-2009, 10:38 AM
Depending on your build, the Drow can be 34-38 points' worth.


In the fine tradition of breaking internal logic in favour of making the PCs more AWESOME, sure.

The fact still remians a drow is weaker than most other well built 32 point races.

baddax
09-28-2009, 10:42 AM
To Baddaxe: when I referred to "the other benefits" that Drow have ... I wasn't talking about DDO Drow, but PnP Drow. In fact, the entire sub-discussion betweein SquelchHU & I is about PnP gaming, not DDO.

I was under the impression this thread was about DDO drow and drow SR.

bobbryan2
09-28-2009, 10:44 AM
plz list these "other benifits" in DDO that drow have compared to a 32 point similar build.

Uh. No other race can summon a drow scorpion. Duh.

baddax
09-28-2009, 10:48 AM
Uh. No other race can summon a drow scorpion. Duh.
lol!

Aumvaar
09-28-2009, 10:59 AM
I was under the impression this thread was about DDO drow and drow SR.

It was, but the statement was made that SR is generally ineffective in PnP; I questioned that, SquelchHU offered an explanation, & we've been disputing that portion of it. Thus, my terming our discussion a "sub-discussion."

I'm sure we can effectively drop it, tho, since I doubt there's any way SquelchHU & I will "agree."

whysper
09-28-2009, 11:21 AM
The fact still remians a drow is weaker than most other well built 32 point races.
Perhaps our opinions about what the word "fact" means are different? :p

baddax
09-28-2009, 11:32 AM
niice....:p

My point being DDO at its core is about numbers. If you compare numbers from various different builds and the various benifits gained by other races it becomes obvious that a drow build in most cases is a weaker build.
Now if you are talking about Role playing or are not a power gamer then its a different discussion.

bobbryan2
09-28-2009, 11:35 AM
niice....:p

My point being DDO at its core is about numbers. If you compare numbers from various different builds and the various benifits gained by other races it becomes obvious that drow a drow build in most cases is a weaker build.
Now if you are talking about Role playing or are not a power gamer then its a different discussion.

Drow aren't bad characters from the creation screen. The problem plaguing them is the lack of good enhancements. Compare also with Humans. Humans are wonderful characters from the creation screen. Pretty much any build will be good as a human. But after initial creation, they don't get any fun, cool perks.

This is slowly righting itself. Before, no one could match Dwarven enhancements. But now, Halflings have finally arrived, along with Warforged.

I'd imagine elves and humans will be along eventually.

baddax
09-28-2009, 11:38 AM
Drow aren't bad characters from the creation screen. The problem plaguing them is the lack of good enhancements. Compare also with Humans. Humans are wonderful characters from the creation screen. Pretty much any build will be good as a human. But after initial creation, they don't get any fun, cool perks.

This is slowly righting itself. Before, no one could match Dwarven enhancements. But now, Halflings have finally arrived, along with Warforged.

I'd imagine elves and humans will be along eventually.


My point exactly, and a working SR would be a nice perk.....:rolleyes:

SquelchHU
09-28-2009, 01:07 PM
The point remains -- I didn't make it stunningly obvious, because I wanted to believe you're capable of drawing a proper inference -- that you not only do not have to give every freekin' Kobold Shaman feats like Spell Penetration, it's a BAD idea to do so. I'd even say that a PnP DM who does that is a very poor DM. However, next time & JUST FOR YOU, I'll be sure to distinguish clearly between spell-casting Kobolds & non-spellcasting Kobolds ... though, seriously, since my whole point was about Spell Penetration, it shouldn't take a very bright bulb to figure out I was referring to Kobold Shamans.

To Baddaxe: when I referred to "the other benefits" that Drow have ... I wasn't talking about DDO Drow, but PnP Drow. In fact, the entire sub-discussion betweein SquelchHU & I is about PnP gaming, not DDO.

You made a comparison to a monster manual kobold, which is not a spellcaster. Your argument was something to the effect of 'trivial foes don't get custom jobs' yet since kobold casters aren't premade for you they have to get one anyways.

Also, you're fixated on Spell Penetration still even though I made it clear several times the only spellcasters that care at all are Evokers and Necromancers, since everyone else can pop SR: No stuff, and indeed the SR: No stuff is the best option regardless of whether the target has spell resistance or not.

It's easily demonstrated and proven spell resistance doesn't mean a damn thing in PnP except a potential negative effect, and has already been. Even in large amounts (significantly more than drow/monks) this still holds up. If you don't get it by now you never will so there's no point in continuing to repeat myself on this side discussion.

Setin_Myways
04-16-2010, 07:27 AM
I thought the defining characteristic of draw was either A) their unhealthy obsession with all things arachnid (To the point of becoming centaur-drow-spider-things, and worshiping a spider goddess), or B) the fact that years of no sunlight somehow *accelerated* their melanin rather than depleting it... thus becoming the only creatures in existence (I think?) to not become albino from evolving in a sunlight-less environment.

I am not familiar with the Eberon history, but drow in greyhawk and Forgotten realms were Dark skinned when they lived on the surface. I believe this is an effect related to their spider goddess intermingling their blood line with demonic entities, which gives them their inherent evil nature...

But in eberon, the drow pally is rather common so I am sure the history is quite different.. but still, they were black before going to the UD, and the sr comes from the UD as well as most their additional abilities.

Bacab
04-16-2010, 08:02 AM
But it remains a valid point that Dwarves are actually better resistant to spells than Drow in their current incarnation.

It's long been accepted as undeniable fact that DDO's version of Drow SR was hopelessly underpowered. I don't think anyone's asking for Drow to gain near immunity to most magic from trash mobs, like they would have in PnP... but I don't think it's too much to ask that they perform at least as well as a Lvl Adjustment 0 race.


Read the books...dwarves eventually beat the drow...

Dwarf>Drow

WAI

But seriously, I think they should just remove the SR. It is too tempting for people who do not know better to take.

How about add "Drow Poison" to the Shuriken attacks? Like a 14 Fort save vs Sleep with maybe a Named Ninja Star?

I say ninja star because Drow did not get hand crossbow in DDO. Maybe make that Ninja Star and end reward in D's Tomb?

BTW I personally hate drow and like to see them struggle...but really they (Turbine) need to give them something. Oh and the lvl 6 Summon Drider Ability...he needs to scale up with level.

I do know ONE enhancement line that would be amazing for Drow. Maybe give them some enhancements to CHR-based skills. This makes sense because they were good at Haggling, and very persuasive. ALSO remember the greatest Drow of all; that would be Jaraxle of course...his UMD was sick. You would have to make this enhancement line very expensive and cap out, but it would be nice.

*2 AP for a +1 to CHR -based Skills
*4 AP For a +2 to CHR -based skills
*6 AP for a +3 to CHR based skills

no these do not stack...so at the end its 12 AP for a +3 to CHR based skills

That seems fair to me...and you would just take the first 2 levels or just the first level.

Thoughts!?