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charmor
09-25-2009, 08:07 AM
Ok, my Dwarf Cleric has a base dex 12, which is the cap for full plate. This means any additional dex bonus won't work for me. However, I noticed dwarves have those nice armor mastery enchancements, in addition to mithral armors I can try to get, to increase my dex cap.

My question is:
Worth getting those dwarven enchancements and a mithral place? Only one of them? In other words, at higher levels can I keep Cat's Grace or any other source of dex bonus long enough to worth having a higher dex cap?

I mean, I just don't want to invest in increasing my dex cap and end up most of the time with the same 12 dex..

Lorien_the_First_One
09-25-2009, 08:13 AM
most cleric builds don't have high enough AC to matter beyond about L12 so unless you really want to work at getting the AC up, its not worth the enhancements.

For now if you trip on some mith FP you will get a bit of an edge when it matters at lower levels.

Mercules
09-25-2009, 08:29 AM
Ok, my Dwarf Cleric has a base dex 12, which is the cap for full plate. This means any additional dex bonus won't work for me. However, I noticed dwarves have those nice armor mastery enchancements, in addition to mithral armors I can try to get, to increase my dex cap.

My question is:
Worth getting those dwarven enchancements and a mithral place? Only one of them? In other words, at higher levels can I keep Cat's Grace or any other source of dex bonus long enough to worth having a higher dex cap?

I mean, I just don't want to invest in increasing my dex cap and end up most of the time with the same 12 dex..

Well, Enhancements can be "reset" for an in game Plat fee later on, so you can use them now and then swap them out later. I tend to do that, grabbing enhancements that will give me an advantage in the early part of the game and then swapping them out for something more meaningful in late game.

charmor
09-25-2009, 08:31 AM
Yes, since I solo most of the time, I believe a higher AC would bring very good benefits.

I just don't know if dex bonus sources have enough duration (buffs) or are common enough (such as items) to worth the investment in enhancements..

charmor
09-25-2009, 08:33 AM
Well, Enhancements can be "reset" for an in game Plat fee later on, so you can use them now and then swap them out later.

Hmm, I always keep forgeting about this.. good point :)

tihocan
09-25-2009, 08:38 AM
I just don't know if dex bonus sources have enough duration (buffs) or are common enough (such as items) to worth the investment in enhancements..
They are. You can take the enhancements now, use a nice armor set while your AC is useful, then at higher levels ditch both the enhancements and armor and run in robe :)

Angelus_dead
09-25-2009, 08:38 AM
at higher levels can I keep Cat's Grace or any other source of dex bonus long enough to worth having a higher dex cap?

I mean, I just don't want to invest in increasing my dex cap and end up most of the time with the same 12 dex..
You have a logical oversight there:
How things work at high levels should not drive your enhancement choices. Enhancements can be trivially retrained as you advance, so what matters is if they help you NOW, not in the far future.

Thrudh
09-25-2009, 08:42 AM
Ok, my Dwarf Cleric has a base dex 12, which is the cap for full plate. This means any additional dex bonus won't work for me. However, I noticed dwarves have those nice armor mastery enchancements, in addition to mithral armors I can try to get, to increase my dex cap.

My question is:
Worth getting those dwarven enchancements and a mithral place? Only one of them? In other words, at higher levels can I keep Cat's Grace or any other source of dex bonus long enough to worth having a higher dex cap?

I mean, I just don't want to invest in increasing my dex cap and end up most of the time with the same 12 dex..

Nice thing about enhancements is you can re-spec them later, so you can take a dwarven armory mastery enhancement now, up your AC by 1 or 2, and get rid of it later when AC doesn't matter as much...

You will find +DEX items as you gain levels... Pretty easy to find a +2 or +4 DEX item to wear so your DEX will be high enough to take advantage of mithral armor or armory mastery...

Good luck to you!

charmor
09-25-2009, 08:50 AM
I see, thanks for all anwers!


...and get rid of it later when AC doesn't matter as much.

I'm just a little afraid of that statement now. lol. If AC starts to worth little at higher levels, how can I, as a Cleric, keep alive when soloing, lets say, normal dungeons?

ahpook
09-25-2009, 09:01 AM
I see, thanks for all anwers!



I'm just a little afraid of that statement now. lol. If AC starts to worth little at higher levels, how can I, as a Cleric, keep alive when soloing, lets say, normal dungeons?

Movement and healing. If they can't catch you, they can't hit you and when they do drop a heal for a few hundred HP. Once you get to L11, blade barrier will be significant weapon which happily requires lots of running aroud to be effective.

On the dex front, phiarlan favor is nice because you can get a +4 dex bonus that lasts for 30 min saving you mana.

Therigar
09-25-2009, 09:06 AM
Hmmmm....

Full plate with DEX bonus +1 -- best AC you're looking at is:

10 base
10 full plate
05 magic bonus
01 alchemical bonus from armor ritual
01 DEX bonus
--
27

Now add your shield

02 large shield
05 magic bonus
01 alchemical bonus from shield ritual
--
08

Up to 33 AC with armor and shield. Now let's make that mithral full plate for 2 more DEX points and take dwarven armor mastery for 3 more DEX points. That is 5 more AC.

Is that worth it?

Most end content you can count on some AC buffs and additional AC gear:

05 barkskin from a ranger
05 paladin aura
02 cleric recitation spell
04 bard song (?? can't remember the exact bonus on this one but I think I have it right)
01 haste (edited here, I originally forgot to include haste)
05 deflection bonus from shield of faith spell or protection item
04 insight bonus from shroud crafted weapon or some of the new mod 9 items
01 dodge feat
02 chaos garde
03 chattering ring
--
32 bonus AC

Now we are talking 33 + 32 = 65 AC or we are talking 5 more than that with mithral full plate and the armor mastery. Is 70 AC better than 65? IMO yes. Your's might be different. But, the benchmark for AC is generally ~70 AC.

Edit: Adjusted AC numbers to account for haste.

Thrudh
09-25-2009, 10:57 AM
Hmmmm....

Full plate with DEX bonus +1 -- best AC you're looking at is:

10 base
10 full plate
05 magic bonus
01 alchemical bonus from armor ritual
01 DEX bonus
--
27

Now add your shield

02 large shield
05 magic bonus
01 alchemical bonus from shield ritual
--
08

Up to 33 AC with armor and shield. Now let's make that mithral full plate for 2 more DEX points and take dwarven armor mastery for 3 more DEX points. That is 5 more AC.

Is that worth it?

Most end content you can count on some AC buffs and additional AC gear:

05 barkskin from a ranger
05 paladin aura
02 cleric recitation spell
04 bard song (?? can't remember the exact bonus on this one but I think I have it right)
05 deflection bonus from shield of faith spell or protection item
04 insight bonus from shroud crafted weapon or some of the new mod 9 items
01 dodge feat
02 chaos garde
03 chattering ring
--
31 bonus AC

Now we are talking 33 + 31 = 64 AC or we are talking 5 more than that with mithral full plate and the armor mastery. Is 69 AC better than 64? IMO yes. Your's might be different. But, the benchmark for AC is generally ~70 AC.

Benchmark is not 70 for good AC... 70+ is what you want tanking a boss... Mid 50+ actually helps against trash even at end-game, and clerics can get there with a little work.

DoctorWhofan
09-25-2009, 11:53 AM
Benchmark is not 70 for good AC... 70+ is what you want tanking a boss... Mid 50+ actually helps against trash even at end-game, and clerics can get there with a little work.

Well, I am at 39 range on my level 17. I offset it with Quicken and the blade barrier dance. Then again, I still have Black Dragon on, since I haven't found anything better.

Therigar
09-25-2009, 02:39 PM
:)

One of the points made earlier was reference to AC. My point is that a cleric can hit the ~70 AC benchmark.

I do concede that there are great clerics all over the various servers with much lower AC than that. The question really is one of enhancements -- what does the cleric take in the enhancment line and do they have room for the dwarven armor mastery?

Answer OP from that perspective and I think it will be more informative for them. Of course, I'm going to observe that after the healing lines and wand/scroll mastery there may not be much else that a cleric really needs. So, if they have the extra AP then it doesn't hurt to take the armor mastery.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-25-2009, 02:46 PM
Hmmmm....

Full plate with DEX bonus +1 -- best AC you're looking at is:

10 base
10 full plate
05 magic bonus
01 alchemical bonus from armor ritual
01 DEX bonus
--
27

Now add your shield

02 large shield
05 magic bonus
01 alchemical bonus from shield ritual
--
08

Up to 33 AC with armor and shield. Now let's make that mithral full plate for 2 more DEX points and take dwarven armor mastery for 3 more DEX points. That is 5 more AC.

Is that worth it?

Most end content you can count on some AC buffs and additional AC gear:

05 barkskin from a ranger
05 paladin aura
02 cleric recitation spell
04 bard song (?? can't remember the exact bonus on this one but I think I have it right)
05 deflection bonus from shield of faith spell or protection item
04 insight bonus from shroud crafted weapon or some of the new mod 9 items
01 dodge feat
02 chaos garde
03 chattering ring
--
31 bonus AC

Now we are talking 33 + 31 = 64 AC or we are talking 5 more than that with mithral full plate and the armor mastery. Is 69 AC better than 64? IMO yes. Your's might be different. But, the benchmark for AC is generally ~70 AC.

That'a lot of equipment and a feat and 3rd party buffs. Most clerics just aren't going to be looking at that kind of build.

Therigar
09-25-2009, 10:18 PM
That'a lot of equipment and a feat and 3rd party buffs. Most clerics just aren't going to be looking at that kind of build.

No, because most clerics think the only thing they are good for is buffing, healing, blade barriers, comet fall.... Or maybe I should say that this is what we tell clerics so often that they give up on trying anything other than the cookie cutter, do it this way, approach.

But, I don't see anyone making this kind of observation about a warrior build that counts on all that gear and 3d party buffs -- or a rogue build or a bard build or a monk build. I only see it on the cleric build -- and I don't think it is a valid objection.

Please note that the barkskin comes in a potion for +3 so if you take away paladin, bard and ranger you are down 11. The rest of it the cleric can do for themself in any case. And, nearly every high level quest I've ever been on has had a paladin and a ranger and a bard. So, it isn't that those 3d party buffs are not available.

Clerics are already one of the most solo friendly classes if built with any imagination at all. A bit more effort to boost AC is, ultimately, resource saving to them. The same player will put out that effort for their melee toons. Why shouldn't a person put out that effort on their cleric?

The only situation is when you are using up the slot for some other piece of gear. Have a better bracer in mind, better ring, need the slot? Then by all means don't count on the gear. But, you'd be an idiot to not make a shroud weapon for the insight bonus (or farm until you get it on a dragontouched armor) regardless of character class. And, the cleric is going to wear armor in 95% or more of the builds. So the body and one hand slot are taken with armor and shield in most cases.

IMO your objections are without real merit and represent the locked-into-doing-it-this-way mindset that plagues DDO -- to its detriment sometimes.

Therigar
09-26-2009, 07:59 AM
My question is:
Worth getting those dwarven enchancements and a mithral place? Only one of them? In other words, at higher levels can I keep Cat's Grace or any other source of dex bonus long enough to worth having a higher dex cap?

I mean, I just don't want to invest in increasing my dex cap and end up most of the time with the same 12 dex..

Right now, discussion on max AC available to you aside, you can get up to +8 more DEX by the following routes:

+2 from a tome -- this will be a permanent increase.
+6 from a stat item -- this will be a temporary increase, only there when you wear the item.

That is an increase to your DEX modifier of +4.

Mithral armor will let you use +2 of that without investment of any action points into enhancements. Dwarven armor mastery II will let you use the other +2 for an investment of 6 action points.

As I posted previously, your maximum theoretical AC will reach ~70 if you do this.

10 base
10 full plate
05 magic bonus on armor
01 alchemical bonus from armor ritual
02 large shield
05 magic bonus on shield
01 alchemical bonus from shield ritual
05 DEX bonus to AC from 20 DEX w mithral armor and dwarven armor mastery II
03 barkskin potion
02 cleric recitation spell
01 haste from potion or clickie
05 deflection bonus from shield of faith spell or protection item
04 insight bonus from shroud crafted weapon or new mod 9 item
01 dodge feat
02 chaos garde (dodge bonus)
03 chattering ring (dodge bonus)
--
60 self managed AC (57 undispellable assuming +5 protection item rather than shield spell)


02 additional barkskin benefit from a ranger spell
05 paladin aura
04 bard song
00 haste from spell (no change to AC but lasts longer)
--
11 AC from others

So, in your specific case your maximum theoretical AC will be 71 if everything is in place. Note that you could get another +1 from armor mastery III and and exceptional DEX bonus of +2 on a shroud crafted weapon or mod 9 item. That may be too much of an investment in action points as it will take another 6 ap.

Angelus_dead
09-26-2009, 10:20 AM
No, because most clerics think the only thing they are good for is buffing, healing, blade barriers, comet fall....
No, the reason is still that clerics don't do that because it takes too much away from their ability at melee, spellcasting, and mana recovery.

To hold a shield and a +4 insight item in your hands takes away slots that could have been Superior Potency, Greater Lore, Spell Penetration, +9 wisdom, or simply weapons to kill mobs. The bracer slot could be +20% healing amp or Glacier. At high levels it's not often the weapon damage that hurts clerics; it's failing a reflex save on a big explosion. To withstand that, you want to kill the mobs faster so they can cast fewer spells; thus, gearing for AC reduces your survivability.

Because Clerics pull less melee aggro and can tap a button to recover 427 hp, they gain less benefit from a high AC than a character with more damage and less healing would.

Therigar
09-26-2009, 03:55 PM
No, the reason is still that clerics don't do that because it takes too much away from their ability at melee, spellcasting, and mana recovery.

To hold a shield and a +4 insight item in your hands takes away slots that could have been Superior Potency, Greater Lore, Spell Penetration, +9 wisdom, or simply weapons to kill mobs. The bracer slot could be +20% healing amp or Glacier. At high levels it's not often the weapon damage that hurts clerics; it's failing a reflex save on a big explosion. To withstand that, you want to kill the mobs faster so they can cast fewer spells; thus, gearing for AC reduces your survivability.

Because Clerics pull less melee aggro and can tap a button to recover 427 hp, they gain less benefit from a high AC than a character with more damage and less healing would.

The reduction in AC from not having a shield or insight bonus to AC from a shroud crafted weapon might be fully understandable in a large variety of situations. And, you can discuss the decision to remove a dodge bonus by swapping bracers and the various benefits that may exist.

However, you do not answer OP's initial question -- does the higher DEX and dwarven armor mastery enhancement line provide a difference worth having. The maximum potential AC for OP is 71 as I've indicated. That is a huge amount of AC and may very well be worth it.

Your objections are still centered around the concept that the cleric's role is to support all of the mana sponges who are out there getting themselves smashed up. While that is the prevalent attitude it is possible to break out of that mold and to build a cleric that is not the group's personal babysitter.

Even if we were to eliminate all the AC that is provided by the items you object to and compel (that means to force someone to do something against their will) all clerics to match your definition of how they ought to be equipped the question remains -- is the additional +4 AC that can come from mithral full plate and dwarven armor mastery worth having.

The answer there is yes, IMO. Any increase in AC is worth having if it does not come at the expense of the character doing what the player designed it to do. Notice that this is the player's decision and not ours (or the group's). The only way I could respond that a +4 increase to AC is not worth pursuing is if the character will be hit on 1+ everytime anyway.

OP should understand that the real decision point isn't about equipment but about the use of action points. Do you have something better that you can do with the 6 ap it will take to get armor mastery II? Remember that this is half of the potential increase to your DEX bonus. The other half is mithral full plate.

Once you decide the answer to that question then you need to look at gear and the various situations where an equipment slot would be better used boosting your cleric ability rather than your DEX and AC.

With a bit of creativity you may find ways to do both without too much of a sacrifice*.

Edit: *For example, the Belt of the Seven Idols listed in the definitive loot list is a belt that gives Superior Potency VII and Spell Penetration VII addressing two "needs" without affecting any of the AC items. The Scepter of Healing is the only greater healing lore item listed in that same loot list and takes a weapon slot. Since weapons can be hot-keyed a cleric could have a mineral II shroud weapon with insight bonus equipped when in melee mode and the SofH equipped when in healing mode (or, could have the insight bonus on one of the new rings that came in mod 9 and then have both going on simultaneously).

Therigar
09-26-2009, 05:08 PM
Having addressed some of Angelus_dead's previous objections it seems important to continue so that OP and others understand that a cleric does not have to be limited in thier build development.

Angelus_dead mentions a +9 WIS modifier. It is important to note that this is really a +6 item and a +3 exceptional bonus. It increases WIS by 3 over what can be obtained with a standard +6 item. Depending on starting WIS one point of that may be wasted.

For example, a dwarven cleric with an 18 WIS at creation will have the following WIS at end game: 18 base + 3 WIS enhancements + 3 tome + 6 skill item = 30 WIS. Taking +3 exceptional bonus is a waste because there is no benefit to a 33 WIS over a 32 WIS. Both provide a +11 WIS modifier.

Is there a substantial benefit to a +11 modifier over a +10 modifier? In almost every case the answer is no. If a player wants to boost the WIS modifier they are better off crafting a shroud item (goggles for instance) rather than a shroud weapon. A shroud item can be crafted that will give +6 to WIS skills -- a far bigger benefit than the exceptional bonus to WIS will provide.

He also mentions 20% healing amplification. This is found on Levik's Bracers. Healing amplification increases incoming healing by 20%. That means it is more important for others to be wearing it as it affects how much more they are healed -- not how much more you are able to heal. Of course it makes sense to wear them yourself if you can. This is an example of deciding whether 2 AC provides you more benefit or the extra healing effect is more useful. In many cases the answer will be, "It depends." Nothing stops the cleric from having both items and using the one that is most beneficial at the moment.

So, what we have then for basic cleric equipment is the following:

body -- +5 mithral full plate
main hand -- shroud crafted weapon with +4 insight bonus or Scepter of Healing
off hand -- +5 heavy shield
wrists -- Chaosgarde or Levik's Bracers
ring 1 -- Chattering Ring
ring 2 -- your choice
feet -- your choice
head -- your choice
neck -- your choice
trinket -- your choice
eyes -- your choice

Now, I'd suggest that you place a +6 WIS item somewhere and these are easily obtained as helmets. You also want a feather falling item and these are easily found as boots or rings. You probably want a striding item and these are easily found as boots. You definitely want the +6 WIS skills boost and the most common place for those is on goggles (although you may prefer something as trivial as Trapblast Goggles for a +4 reflex save as your goggles and put the bonus somewhere else).

So, we've eaten up 4 of the 6 free slots. What else do you want? Underwater action? Often available as an additional effect on several of the items already mentioned. But, you still have 2 slots free. Your Voice of the Master? Trinket slot is still open.

My point is that clerics don't need to listen to the naysayers. They can have the good AC and the other stuff as well. It just takes planning and work to obtain the items.
waist -- Belt of the Seven Idols

Junts
09-26-2009, 05:10 PM
I see, thanks for all anwers!



I'm just a little afraid of that statement now. lol. If AC starts to worth little at higher levels, how can I, as a Cleric, keep alive when soloing, lets say, normal dungeons?


Blade barrier, maximzie, and quicken spell

and the heal spell

Clerics are outstanding soloers and only very limited numbers of ddo characters have a high armor class

There's lot sof other evasion methods available, and aoe damage.

Therigar
09-26-2009, 05:20 PM
Clerics are outstanding soloers and only very limited numbers of ddo characters have a high armor class

Why is it that only a limited number of DDO characters have high AC? Is it because it cannot be achieved or because they simply don't put in the effort?

OP can hit 60 to 71 AC and still have 6 unused slots. Situationally he'll drop 2 to 6 AC in order to equip other items. When soloing why wouldn't he want the full 60 AC he can get unaided by any other character?

When in a group why wouldn't he want the full 71 AC in most situations dropping to 65 to 69 situationally in order to better help the party?

The fact that cleric is already a good soloing class or that many players don't put in the effort to attain the higher AC isn't a reason -- it is an excuse.

Angelus_dead
09-26-2009, 05:33 PM
Your objections are still centered around the concept that the cleric's role is to support all of the mana sponges who are out there getting themselves smashed up.
That is so totally wrong that I probably don't need to read the rest.

My cleric has a Dragontouched Fullplate hanging in the closet. I don't wear it, even though it would mean a fast +3 AC; because increasing AC would have a neutral or even negative effect on my character's ability. (If it gets the stoneskin proc then I'd consider using it)

If you don't know what I mean, this uninformatively-titled thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203190) could help.

Angelus_dead
09-26-2009, 05:35 PM
Why is it that only a limited number of DDO characters have high AC? Is it because it cannot be achieved or because they simply don't put in the effort?
As already explained, the reason is because having that AC would detract from their other abilities. Three to five body slots is a serious cost in performing other functions.

Junts
09-26-2009, 05:42 PM
Why is it that only a limited number of DDO characters have high AC? Is it because it cannot be achieved or because they simply don't put in the effort?

OP can hit 60 to 71 AC and still have 6 unused slots. Situationally he'll drop 2 to 6 AC in order to equip other items. When soloing why wouldn't he want the full 60 AC he can get unaided by any other character?

When in a group why wouldn't he want the full 71 AC in most situations dropping to 65 to 69 situationally in order to better help the party?

The fact that cleric is already a good soloing class or that many players don't put in the effort to attain the higher AC isn't a reason -- it is an excuse.

Because to achieve a very high endgame ac you have to invest a tremendous amount of work in it and make it a major build focus

are there ac clerics? sure, I know a great one; it requires a ton of raidloot and significant sacrifices. Further, that same charcter has suffered ab it in module 9, where the endgame acs required have gone up substantially and the added ac buffs available are not available to clerics

a 60 ac is cool, but less protection in the endgame than a basic displacement spell. The OP will be fine with armor class until he gets into the gianthold range, and at that point he is better off soloing in other ways ... unless he's reasonably confident that there are chattering rings and shroud ac weapons in his future.

As a primarily solo player (his own words), these things are not likely to occur in his immediate future.


If the OP wants to solo from level 12 up, he can do so by taking two feats essential for any good cleric, loading 2 spells and using one very cheap, broker-acquirable item (greater potency 6 lv 12 sceptre, then sup pot 6 at 14).

With the combination of basic self buffing, the heal spell, quicken/max and blade barrier, a cleric naked of everything but a heavy fortification item can solo the vale of twilight with little issue

Since I assume the op will not be naked, his odds of success are significantly improved.

Therigar
09-27-2009, 08:25 AM
Both Junts and Angelus_dead have said that it is not worth the investment to obtain and the slots to wear the items that will give a cleric ~70 AC. They have stated this but they have not laid out what items they think are needed for the various slots.

I tried to avoid this trap by posting an item list along with the slot location. In doing this I used 5 of 11 item slots -- leaving 6 free for additional items that a player might find needful.

Both Junts and Angelus_dead are well known on the forums. But, they may have forgotten that this is the New Player Advice & Guidance forum. So, while they make the assertions it is, IMO, essential that they back up their objections with a list of necessary equipment. IMO this is needed in order for them to prove that there is a better use for the item slots.

Please note that I have already addressed all of Angelus_dead's objections in a previous post showing that a player needs only to switch items in two locations -- bracers and weapon -- to have all of the things that he insisted are needed*. Even so, both Junts and Angelus_dead continue to insist that a cleric not put in the effort to attain a high AC. IMO this high on criticism, low on substance response from the two of them does not help either new player or veteran players.

To both of them I would restate what I've already posted -- show what items are needed that makes not using the AC items better for the OP and show how the OP can better use the 6 action points spent for armor mastery II.

Until they back their assertions with information I would suggest that what they have to say is not worth listening to. To be helpful to OP and other new players (and even to veteran players) they must explain why pursuing AC is deterimental to the cleric by giving detailed slot and enhancement information that shows the AC items are not needed and the armor mastery enhancements cannot be afforded.




*The one caveat in my reply to Angelus_dead was that the +3 exceptional bonus is not as important as the +6 WIS skills bonus. If a cleric begins with 18 WIS a +3 exceptional bonus will permit them to reach WIS 38 (18 base + 3 tome + 5 level increases + 3 enhancements + 6 item bonus + 3 exceptional bonus). If they do not have the exceptional bonus the cleric will reach WIS 35. At L20 that is a difference of +2 in WIS skills and 58 spell points (based on the spell point chart information in the ddowiki). How a player values this will be determined by their experiences. I'm not certain that there is any endgame content where the difference will matter. However, Junts or Angelus_dead may have specific examples proving that it is needed -- information that would be useful to the community if it exists.