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r3dl4nce
09-22-2009, 11:01 AM
C'mon, there are lot of players interested in paying to get 32 point build from the store instead of reaching 1750 favor (just like drow and favored soul) and still there isn't this option ?
Turbine, are you sure you want our money? Seems you don't like them (I am a former european player, already a VIP on DDO:Eberron Unlimited but I have no time to farm 1750 and then do again the character, I'm ready to pay to buy 32 pnt build).

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 11:06 AM
Turbine has already said they have no intention of making 32pt builds purchasable.

How is it you have no time to play the game to get the favor needed?

Are you playing the game at all? If yes, then you have the time it's just up to you whether or not you want to put in the effort.

Samiusbot
09-22-2009, 11:12 AM
I would be nice to pay to up grade a 28 point build to a 32 point build and maybe reset that PC's stats. Problem would be applying skills points, it might be a coding nightmare.

I say it will be here sooner or later. Probably later.

r3dl4nce
09-22-2009, 11:19 AM
Turbine has already said they have no intention of making 32pt builds purchasable.
In a reply to a thread, someone from Turbine staff said they were considering this option.


How is it you have no time to play the game to get the favor needed?
Because I'm not interested in reaching 1750 with a "gimped" char and even if I played for 2+ years on european server, I still don't like zerging too much. Se let me buy my 32 point toon like I can buy drow or FvS.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 11:25 AM
So basically it boils down to you not wanting to make the effort.

A 28pt build is not "gimped". When are people going to stop with this concept?

People are gimped, their build is gimped, the amount of points you have at creation does not automatically gimp your alt.

Avonwey
09-22-2009, 11:29 AM
So basically it boils down to you not wanting to make the effort.

A 28pt build is not "gimped". When are people going to stop with this concept?

People are gimped, their build is gimped, the amount of points you have at creation does not automatically gimp your alt.

Why is your reply/attitude so snarky? He gave you other reasons why he wants to buy 32-point builds. Your reply "you not wanting to make the effort" is both untrue and makes you sound like a jerk.

You can use the same argument for unlocking drow, yet Turbine has them for sale as well.

r3dl4nce
09-22-2009, 11:31 AM
Face the thruth, as soon as you have 1750 favor , you roll a 32 point character. It was for the drow when first he came in game (I remember the harbor full of drows lol). So if they let buy the drow, why not let buy 32 point? As a former euro player, I'd like to recreate my toons here (already did with drow cleric, drow bought from shop) so why I can't recreate my 32 points and I have to zerg to 1750 (I don't like too much zerging) just ot delete that char and made another, simply better?

Qzipoun
09-22-2009, 11:31 AM
You can use the same argument for unlocking drow, yet Turbine has them for sale as well.

Just because they did one stupid thing doesn't mean they should do another.

While their at it, a lot of people would be interested in buying WoP rapiers, raid loot, and lvl 20 characters...

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 11:33 AM
Just because they did one stupid thing doesn't mean they should do another.

While their at it, a lot of people would be interested in buying WoP rapiers, raid loot, and lvl 20 characters...


Exactly.

Avonwey
09-22-2009, 11:35 AM
Just because they did one stupid thing doesn't mean they should do another.

While their at it, a lot of people would be interested in buying WoP rapiers, raid loot, and lvl 20 characters...

Except allowing players to purchase Drow is a FANTASTIC idea. I am a returning player who wanted to remake an drow character I had. I'm a casual player with only a little time each week and have zero interest in making one player to unlock another. If the drow purchase option wasn't available I would not have returned.

Drow purchase = happy customer = $$$ for turbine

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Just because they did one stupid thing doesn't mean they should do another.

While their at it, a lot of people would be interested in buying WoP rapiers, raid loot, and lvl 20 characters...

The stupid thing here is the existence of the 32pt reward for 1750 favor. Making them buyable in store is fixing that mistake.

Nice strawman argument on the other items.

Simple fact is that 32pt is a showstopper for some people to continue playing the game. It doesn't hurt individual players if Turbine makes 32pt builds available in shop. It will help the playerbase as some people who would have left will stay. It helps Turbine because they will make good revenue from it.

Incidentally, I have unlocked 32pt builds on cannith already, and I fully support making them buyable.

Edit: also, this is the third time I have unlocked 32pt builds, and I still fully support making them buyable.

eonfreon
09-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Sounds to me like the OP already made the effort once and already got his 32 pt in the Euro Server.
He just doesn't want to do it again.
I've done it on 2 servers already, but somehow if I go to a new server I'm suddenly not "worthy" of 32 pointers?

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 11:44 AM
So basically it boils down to you not wanting to make the effort.

A 28pt build is not "gimped". When are people going to stop with this concept?

People are gimped, their build is gimped, the amount of points you have at creation does not automatically gimp your alt.

32 - 28 = 4.

Thats 4 points of gimpness right there.

Its not rocket science...

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 11:44 AM
The stupid thing here is the existence of the 32pt reward for 1750 favor. Making them buyable in store is fixing that mistake.

Nice strawman argument on the other items.

Simple fact is that 32pt is a showstopper for some people to continue playing the game. It doesn't hurt individual players if Turbine makes 32pt builds available in shop. It will help the playerbase as some people who would have left will stay. It helps Turbine because they will make good revenue from it.

Incidentally, I have unlocked 32pt builds on cannith already, and I fully support making them buyable.

Which also hurts your argument because obviously it didn't take that much time or effort to unlock 32 pt builds seeing as Cannith has been up all of what 2.5 weeks.

eonfreon
09-22-2009, 11:45 AM
Which also hurts your argument because obviously it didn't take that much time or effort to unlock 32 pt builds seeing as Cannith has been up all of what 2.5 weeks.

Some people do it in 2 days, some in 2 years, so what?

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 11:46 AM
32 - 28 = 4.

Thats 4 points of gimpness right there.

Its not rocket science...


I have 28pt builds on Cannith and I do not consider any of them gimp.

Gimp is in the mind the player and the build. That being the case then maybe all tomes should be available too because several players with 32 pt builds have added several tomes to their builds thus making it even farther ahead even if you had a 32 pt build right?

Qzipoun
09-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Except allowing players to purchase Drow is a FANTASTIC idea. I am a returning player who wanted to remake an drow character I had. I'm a casual player with only a little time each week and have zero interest in making one player to unlock another. If the drow purchase option wasn't available I would not have returned.

Drow purchase = happy customer = $$$ for turbine

Ok, I guess I should have been clearer. It is a good idea in terms of making money, it's a stupid idea in terms of the game. Just like having mana pots in the store, it's ludicrous but it makes them money. Unfortunately, at this point the devs don't care about making a fun game the "right" way, they're model is driven by individual micro transactions. We were supposed to have half-orcs/elves and druids ages ago, now the official word is "if races/class sell well in the store we'll do it". It's no longer an issue of making a game true to the DnD experience, it's all about the money...

Elsbet
09-22-2009, 11:48 AM
A 28pt build is not "gimped". When are people going to stop with this concept?

People are gimped, their build is gimped, the amount of points you have at creation does not automatically gimp your alt.

QFT.



Face the thruth, as soon as you have 1750 favor , you roll a 32 point character. It was for the drow when first he came in game (I remember the harbor full of drows lol). So if they let buy the drow, why not let buy 32 point? As a former euro player, I'd like to recreate my toons here (already did with drow cleric, drow bought from shop) so why I can't recreate my 32 points and I have to zerg to 1750 (I don't like too much zerging) just ot delete that char and made another, simply better?

I know a lot of people who still run their 28 pt. builds long after they've built their 32 pt. builds because they built the 28 pointers well. My best cleric is a 28 pt. build. She does better than a lot of 32 pt. builds I've run with.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 11:50 AM
The point is this. Before this atrocity they call a DDO store existed everybody accepted that you had to "work" for a 32pt build or Drow. Now all the sudden we want to "buy" our way through the game. It's a joke and shows exactly where this game is headed, in the toilet.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 11:50 AM
I would be nice to pay to up grade a 28 point build to a 32 point build and maybe reset that PC's stats. Problem would be applying skills points, it might be a coding nightmare.

I say it will be here sooner or later. Probably later.

Irrelevant.

Make 32 pt builds available now, and treat respec of exisiting 28 pt builds as a separate problem.

The availability of 32pt builds in shop is causing new players to discontinue with the game. This is a major issue and can be easily fixed.

The non-availability of a respec from 28 to 32pt builds is annoying, but the existing playerbase has learned to live with it. For those with little or no raid loot on their 28 pt builds, they can easily reroll. For those with lots of raid loot, its a question of which they want more, 4pts on their build or the raid loot they have acquired to date. Its not a major issue.

And before I get ad-hominem'd for that statement, my toon on cannith already has acquired some really nice bound to character gear, including icy raiments, which I would have no guarantee of obtaining again quickly if i was to reroll to 32pts. So i am in the same boat, and I have no issue with 32pt builds being buyable.

Quanefel
09-22-2009, 11:51 AM
Except allowing players to purchase Drow is a FANTASTIC idea. I am a returning player who wanted to remake an drow character I had. I'm a casual player with only a little time each week and have zero interest in making one player to unlock another. If the drow purchase option wasn't available I would not have returned.

Drow purchase = happy customer = $$$ for turbine

Really? How hard is it to get 400 favor for drow? Would you be better served if Turbine had a payed service to come to your house to play your character for you? How much would you be willing to pay for that? I wonder if dignity and self-worth will be sold next? You never know, someone "might" buy them! :D

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 11:54 AM
I have 28pt builds on Cannith and I do not consider any of them gimp.

Thats an opinion, just as other people may opine that relative to a similar build with 4 additional build points, your builds are less effective.



Gimp is in the mind the player and the build.

No, gimp is in the fact that 32 - 28 = 4



That being the case then maybe all tomes should be available too because several players with 32 pt builds have added several tomes to their builds thus making it even farther ahead even if you had a 32 pt build right?

Again with the strawman?


New players don't like having 28 pt builds because they know they will need to reroll. They don't mind that they will have to work for gear like tomes and raid loot, they object to their first toon being throwaway.

Repeatedly trying to change this argument into the strawman about allowing everything to be bought is dishonest.

Avonwey
09-22-2009, 11:54 AM
I know a lot of people who still run their 28 pt. builds long after they've built their 32 pt. builds because they built the 28 pointers well. My best cleric is a 28 pt. build. She does better than a lot of 32 pt. builds I've run with.

But your best cleric would be even better if it were a 32 point build.

Avonwey
09-22-2009, 11:56 AM
Really? How hard is it to get 400 favor for drow? Would you be better served if Turbine had a payed service to come to your house to play your character for you? How much would you be willing to pay for that? I wonder if dignity and self-worth will be sold next? You never know, someone "might" buy them! :D

Thanks so much for the condescension. I don't have a lot of time to play, and spending 2-3 weeks to get 400 favor *just* so I can make the character I really want makes no sense. I want to play to have fun, not grind favor. Why can some people not understand this?

enochiancub
09-22-2009, 11:57 AM
Just because they did one stupid thing doesn't mean they should do another.

While their at it, a lot of people would be interested in buying WoP rapiers, raid loot, and lvl 20 characters...

Give it time, seems like it's inevitable with the way that store thing is evolving.

Qzipoun
09-22-2009, 11:57 AM
But your best cleric would be even better if it were a 32 point build.

That doesn't mean the cleric is gimped, there's a huge difference.

Yes, any 28pt build would be better as a 32pt, even if you're just raising a dump stat, that's why you work to unlock that ability, you don't just throw money at the problem.

WolfSpirit
09-22-2009, 11:57 AM
Not going to happen...
You've GOT to have some goal out there thats NOT purchaseable!
Come ON guys, don't keep trying to hit the EASY button!

Galtron
09-22-2009, 11:57 AM
Excluding the OPs situation, it's unfortunate that the perception amongst new players is that 28 point builds are gimped.

If you're new to the game, chances are you won't know what to do with those extra 4 points, and thus you will be just as gimpy as your 28 point build.

OP, if you did it once, I'm sure you can do it again, regardless of how long it takes you. Being that you have experience with the game, you know you can roll a 28 point character and do just fine.

IMO gimp is the player, not the character.

Assuming you're F2P since euro doesn't have that? It is what it is right now. If you don't like it, go back to paying your sub on the euro servers.
A simple forum search would have told you that, as there have been many of these threads lately.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 11:58 AM
Which also hurts your argument because obviously it didn't take that much time or effort to unlock 32 pt builds seeing as Cannith has been up all of what 2.5 weeks.

No, it means that when i say that 32pt builds should be buyable, people can't come back at me with an ad-hominem that I am a jealous newbie who wants what the veterans have without working for it.

That line of reasoning (sometimes dressed up, sometimes not) is continually presented in these forums, and its abhorrent.

32pts being buyable does not hurt you in any way. Not allowing it in store hurts the game, and it hurts Turbine's bottom line.

r3dl4nce
09-22-2009, 11:58 AM
Well, I know that zerging a bit and having lot of time (I only can play about 15-20 hours a week, I work) 32 pnt build can be unlocked in less than a month. But why? I work, I am VIP and I can pay the shop for a advantage already in the shop (drow+fvs). Moreover, I am leader in a italian guild on cannith, and I prefer helping new players rather then zerging. Still can't believe why drow and fvs yes, 32 point no. If I am VIP, there is nothing that interest me in the shop except classes/races/32point.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 12:02 PM
Thats an opinion, just as other people may opine that relative to a similar build with 4 additional build points, your builds are less effective.



No, gimp is in the fact that 32 - 28 = 4



Again with the strawman?


New players don't like having 28 pt builds because they know they will need to reroll. They don't mind that they will have to work for gear like tomes and raid loot, they object to their first toon being throwaway.

Repeatedly trying to change this argument into the strawman about allowing everything to be bought is dishonest.

This statement alone makes me laugh. First off you have now clue what my build or anyone's build may be. Your right being able to dump a few extra points into a meaningless stat is sure going to push me over the top. Or how about needing 6 points to hit an 18 on a stat, that extra 4 points giving me a 17 is really going to help isn't it? If you think having 28pts makes you gimp then you are and nothing is going to change that.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:05 PM
Excluding the OPs situation, it's unfortunate that the perception amongst new players is that 28 point builds are gimped.

You are being very disingenuous here. You are trying to change the argument to 'its possible to make a good 28pt build, why are people complaining?'. The true argument is, 'given a particular 28pt build, could you make it slightly better with 4 additional build points?' This is obviously true, even if all you are doing is increasing your will save by 1 or your umd skill by 1 or whatever. Therefore, the statement that, 'relative to an equivalent 32pt build, a 28pt build is slightly gimped' is undeniably true.



If you're new to the game, chances are you won't know what to do with those extra 4 points, and thus you will be just as gimpy as your 28 point build.

It will be exactly 4 build points less gimpy.




If you don't like it, go back to paying your sub on the euro servers.


Or lets broaden it further, and extend it to new players. 'If you don't like it, go back to paying for some other MMO'. Sadly, thats exactly what some people are doing, and it will hurt the game, and hurt Turbine's bottom line.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:08 PM
This statement alone makes me laugh. First off you have now clue what my build or anyone's build may be. Your right being able to dump a few extra points into a meaningless stat is sure going to push me over the top. Or how about needing 6 points to hit an 18 on a stat, that extra 4 points giving me a 17 is really going to help isn't it? If you think having 28pts makes you gimp then you are and nothing is going to change that.

Since unlocking 32 pt builds, have you ever made a 28 pt build?

If not, then by your actions you agree that 32pt builds are more effective right?

If you still make 28 pt builds even though you have 32pt unlocked, then most people would think you were being less effective than you could be right?

Even adding +1 to a save or to a skill make a character slightly more effective, therefore it is true to say that a 28pt build is relatively weaker than an equivalent 32pt build.

eonfreon
09-22-2009, 12:09 PM
This statement alone makes me laugh. First off you have now clue what my build or anyone's build may be. Your right being able to dump a few extra points into a meaningless stat is sure going to push me over the top. Or how about needing 6 points to hit an 18 on a stat, that extra 4 points giving me a 17 is really going to help isn't it? If you think having 28pts makes you gimp then you are and nothing is going to change that.

Oh no. LOL.
Did you just do a "I know you are but what am I", PeeWee Herman?

Quanefel
09-22-2009, 12:10 PM
Irrelevant.

Make 32 pt builds available now, and treat respec of exisiting 28 pt builds as a separate problem.

The availability of 32pt builds in shop is causing new players to discontinue with the game. This is a major issue and can be easily fixed.

The non-availability of a respec from 28 to 32pt builds is annoying, but the existing playerbase has learned to live with it. For those with little or no raid loot on their 28 pt builds, they can easily reroll. For those with lots of raid loot, its a question of which they want more, 4pts on their build or the raid loot they have acquired to date. Its not a major issue.

And before I get ad-hominem'd for that statement, my toon on cannith already has acquired some really nice bound to character gear, including icy raiments, which I would have no guarantee of obtaining again quickly if i was to reroll to 32pts. So i am in the same boat, and I have no issue with 32pt builds being buyable.

Everyone's response seems to be an ad hominem attack, even responses that have not happened yet to you. Weird.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 12:14 PM
Since unlocking 32 pt builds, have you ever made a 28 pt build?

If not, then by your actions you agree that 32pt builds are more effective right?

If you still make 28 pt builds even though you have 32pt unlocked, then most people would think you were being less effective than you could be right?

Even adding +1 to a save or to a skill make a character slightly more effective, therefore it is true to say that a 28pt build is relatively weaker than an equivalent 32pt build.


First off that's inane statement as you know as well as I do once it's unlocked you don't have an option.

Secondly I still have a couple of my 28pt builds I run and have no desire to re-roll them.

Again, if your statement is others have it why shouldn't I then why not make all tomes available? Too bad if you don't "feel" as effective as others that's your issue. I have NEVER IN MY GAMING EXPERIENCE been asked if I have a 28pt or 32pt build. Like I said if you think haveing a 28 pt build makes you gimp nothing will change that. I have 32pts on Argo and 28pts on Cannith and I don't feel inferior in any way on Cannith.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:14 PM
Not going to happen...
You've GOT to have some goal out there thats NOT purchaseable!
Come ON guys, don't keep trying to hit the EASY button!

Why do people keep peddling this line? No one asking for 32pt builds to be buyable is asking for an 'easy' button. Grinding 1750 favor is not hard, its time consuming.

The goals in this game are varied: some people like to play the quests with other people and enjoy the experience; some like to solo the quests as a personal challenge; others like to raid at the end-game and build up lots of phat loot that gives them braggging right.

The problem with 32pt builds is that they are not really a goal, they are more like an obstacle. No one really brags about having 32pt builds. Even on cannith recently, when the first people got 32pt builds, it wasn't the fact that they could build new toons with 32pts that they were bragging about, it was more the fact that they were the first to get to that level of favor on the server.

Galtron
09-22-2009, 12:15 PM
You are being very disingenuous here. You are trying to change the argument to 'its possible to make a good 28pt build, why are people complaining?'. The true argument is, 'given a particular 28pt build, could you make it slightly better with 4 additional build points?' This is obviously true, even if all you are doing is increasing your will save by 1 or your umd skill by 1 or whatever. Therefore, the statement that, 'relative to an equivalent 32pt build, a 28pt build is slightly gimped' is undeniably true.




It will be exactly 4 build points less gimpy.




Or lets broaden it further, and extend it to new players. 'If you don't like it, go back to paying for some other MMO'. Sadly, thats exactly what some people are doing, and it will hurt the game, and hurt Turbine's bottom line.

You assume that the new player knows where to put those four points?
Have you been to Korthos/Harbor?
Have you monitered the Advice channel?
Have you pugged recently?
Generally new players have not taken the time to research builds, and thus utilize the 4 points.

If you honestly believe that not having a 32 point build is game breaking, and will shatter your gameplay experience, then it is a sad day for DDO.

Why broaden my statement? I simply stated if the OP doesn't like things the way they are (not saying 32 point builds will forever be unbuyable), then he/she should go back to the Euro servers. Not quit the game.

Avonwey
09-22-2009, 12:18 PM
You assume that the new player knows where to put those four points?
Have you been to Korthos/Harbor?
Have you monitered the Advice channel?
Have you pugged recently?
Generally new players have not taken the time to research builds, and thus utilize the 4 points.

If you honestly believe that not having a 32 point build is game breaking, and will shatter your gameplay experience, then it is a sad day for DDO.

Why broaden my statement? I simply stated if the OP doesn't like things the way they are (not saying 32 point builds will forever be unbuyable), then he/she should go back to the Euro servers. Not quit the game.

Another straw man argument. Lots of old players want to buy 32 point characters. I've been here since Module 1, and want to buy 32 point characters. I can guarantee you I know where to allocate those extra 3 points.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 12:19 PM
How is it not an "easy" button. The 32pt build is an "earned" reward given to those who put in the time and effort. Buying it is an "easy" way to get it without having to put in the time or effort.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:19 PM
First off that's inane statement as you know as well as I do once it's unlocked you don't have an option.

Secondly I still have a couple of my 28pt builds I run and have no desire to re-roll them.

Again, if your statement is others have it why shouldn't I then why not make all tomes available? Too bad if you don't "feel" as effective as others that's your issue. I have NEVER IN MY GAMING EXPERIENCE been asked if I have a 28pt or 32pt build. Like I said if you think haveing a 28 pt build makes you gimp nothing will change that. I have 32pts on Argo and 28pts on Cannith and I don't feel inferior in any way on Cannith.

Technically the pre-built paths used to be 28pt builds even if you had unlocked 32pt builds, but I take your point. Hypothetically though, would you ever roll up a 28pt'er if you had 32pts available? I doubt you would, and I for sure know I wouldn't.

Tomes and high end gear are not the same as 32pt builds. You can always acquire those things over time. You can't (at the moment) respec your 28pt to a 32pt.

I know that the real issue here is that veterans have 28 pt builds that can't be respec'd to 32pt builds, and many of them would be unhappy if the option to start with 32pt builds was made available to new players.

However, interestingly, this then turns your argument on its head - you are basically saying 'if newcomers can have a 32pt build from the start, then why couldn't I? if I couldn't, then nor should they'.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:26 PM
Everyone's response seems to be an ad hominem attack, even responses that have not happened yet to you. Weird.

I have read these forums for a long time, and I have seen this discussion several times in the past. I am going by my experience of the arguments used by the nay-sayers to 32pt builds.

No one has yet given any facts as to why its sensible for new players to be told that they will not only be disadvantaged by being new to the game, but also that the first character they create will only have 28 build points whilst veterans are usually building with 32pts.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 12:27 PM
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is certain things in this game are earned mostly favor rewards. If you do not wish to take the time to earn these favors then you don't get the benefit. Any purchasable favor rewards were a big mistake IMHO as it opens the door to this kind of stuff. Why not just do away with all favor rewards then? That way nobody has to earn anything. Make all Shroud weapons purchasable because I can tell you that's a bigger grind than earning 1750 favor and well people without those are behind everyone else right? Hell why not just turn this into a WoW clone where we all start equally and each build is the same and we all have the same equipment that way nobody can cry foul.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 12:33 PM
I have read these forums for a long time, and I have seen this discussion several times in the past. I am going by my experience of the arguments used by the nay-sayers to 32pt builds.

No one has yet given any facts as to why its sensible for new players to be told that they will not only be disadvantaged by being new to the game, but also that the first character they create will only have 28 build points whilst veterans are usually building with 32pts.


Because veterans have played long enough to "earn" a reward within the game which is part of the game design. Plain and simple. Now people want the game design changed to suit their needs and wants. Reverse the argument, why should the game design be changed for new players? being as they are new to the game I would suspect they would understand they don;t have access to everything the veterans have, at least if they are reasonable humans.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:35 PM
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is certain things in this game are earned mostly favor rewards. If you do not wish to take the time to earn these favors then you don't get the benefit. Any purchasable favor rewards were a big mistake IMHO as it opens the door to this kind of stuff. Why not just do away with all favor rewards then? That way nobody has to earn anything. Make all Shroud weapons purchasable because I can tell you that's a bigger grind than earning 1750 favor and well people without those are behind everyone else right? Hell why not just turn this into a WoW clone where we all start equally and each build is the same and we all have the same equipment that way nobody can cry foul.



Ok, this is a fair point about having favor rewards. I think what we need to determine then, is, what constitutes a good favor reward? Things like the ingame house P, K, and D favor as well as coin lords and agents of argonnessen favor are 'good' rewards in my view. They give my actual character in game that earned the favor access to things that he wouldn't otherwise have. They make earning the favor important, and give me an in-character goal.

Favor rewards that provide meta-game benefits, like new classes / races / build benefits are bad favor rewards in my view. They don't help the character earning them. Turbine is wisely offering the choice to buy some of these rewards, i.e. drow and fvs. They should extend this approach to the 32pt build benefit option as well, and then all players have a choice to either grind in game for the favor or pay for it. Either way, these rewards don't benefit the toon earning them, they are account level benefits.


What a lot of people seem to be doing in these discussions is mixing up the two. No one is asking to buy shroud weapons or +2 tomes or what not. If turbine hadn't made the +1 tomes available in store, no one would be asking for them to be in store.

Mercules
09-22-2009, 12:36 PM
32 - 28 = 4.

Thats 4 points of gimpness right there.

Its not rocket science...

HAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAA!

Which actually turns into your "main" stat being 1 or 2 points less than the person standing next to you, or your "dump stats" being 4 points higher. In either case it equals a +/- difference of 1 or 2. If your build can't survive a -1 to it's DC, or one less turn, or -1 To Hit/Damage, then your build was way off to begin with.

I still have a 28 point Rogue running around who was able to do fine in the new content fighting and trapsmithing and he is NOT very well geared up as I was focusing on new characters instead of grinding loot with my high level characters. In fact normally when I reach cap I simply re-roll the character. Even so I kept him around because he works just fine as a 28 point build, even for a class that needs several different stats at decent levels.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:43 PM
Because veterans have played long enough to "earn" a reward within the game which is part of the game design. Plain and simple. Now people want the game design changed to suit their needs and wants. Reverse the argument, why should the game design be changed for new players? being as they are new to the game I would suspect they would understand they don;t have access to everything the veterans have, at least if they are reasonable humans.

Perhaps you don't know your DDO history then. Drow were added in, and everyone and his dog had drow in the early game as they were simply better than 28pt builds. At the same time, the early content was limited. The playerbase then was quite hardcore, and wanted more stuff to do and occupy their time. Turbine saw a way to kill two birds with one stone, by providing 32pt builds that were equivalent to drow in raw attribute power, and making these subject to players repeating the limited content available. The playerbase was more or less ok with this, and in those days hitting 1750 favor really was an achievement, as there were fewer quests in the game.

The world has moved on in the last 3.5 years. There is much more content now, and Turbine wants to open the game up to a more casual playerbase. This playerbase is unlikely to accept the 32pt grind, and whats more, they would probably be ok to pay to unlock such builds. If Turbine doesn't allow these to be bought in the store, I honestly don't see how their strategy of getting a more casual playerbase will work. Casual players are not casual because they want their characters to be less effective; they simply have less time to play. In-game rewards like tomes and raid gear that their characters can find are great to motivate them to play. Meta-game rewards like 32pt builds will just be a source of frustration.

Visty
09-22-2009, 12:45 PM
Perhaps you don't know your DDO history then. Drow were added in, and everyone and his dog had drow in the early game as they were simply better than 28pt builds. At the same time, the early content was limited. The playerbase then was quite hardcore, and wanted more stuff to do and occupy their time. Turbine saw a way to kill two birds with one stone, by providing 32pt builds that were equivalent to drow in raw attribute power, and making these subject to players repeating the limited content available. The playerbase was more or less ok with this, and in those days hitting 1750 favor really was an achievement, as there were fewer quests in the game.

The world has moved on in the last 3.5 years. There is much more content now, and Turbine wants to open the game up to a more casual playerbase. This playerbase is unlikely to accept the 32pt grind, and whats more, they would probably be ok to pay to unlock such builds. If Turbine doesn't allow these to be bought in the store, I honestly don't see how their strategy of getting a more casual playerbase will work. Casual players are not casual because they want their characters to be less effective; they simply have less time to play. In-game rewards like tomes and raid gear that their characters can find are great to motivate them to play. Meta-game rewards like 32pt builds will just be a source of frustration.

then id would be better to remove 32pt alltogether while those rolled 32pts stay 32pt
then there wont be any problem anymore

r3dl4nce
09-22-2009, 12:46 PM
Assuming you're F2P since euro doesn't have that? It is what it is right now. If you don't like it, go back to paying your sub on the euro servers.
A simple forum search would have told you that, as there have been many of these threads lately.
I'm VIP here on DDO:EU, euro server are very very very under-populated (I want to play a Massive-Multiplayer-Online-RPG not a single player), and I know that 32 pnt build are not in the store, but I like to suggest (is this the suggestion forum, no?) to put them in the Store. None is damaged, most are more happy.

About the usual "28 point is not gimp"... well, just to make an example, why every veteran in the monk forum say "don't do a 28 pnt monk, do 32!". And this is a mere example. Veterans are stating that 28 pnt build are gimped.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:47 PM
HAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAA!

Which actually turns into your "main" stat being 1 or 2 points less than the person standing next to you, or your "dump stats" being 4 points higher. In either case it equals a +/- difference of 1 or 2. If your build can't survive a -1 to it's DC, or one less turn, or -1 To Hit/Damage, then your build was way off to begin with.

I still have a 28 point Rogue running around who was able to do fine in the new content fighting and trapsmithing and he is NOT very well geared up as I was focusing on new characters instead of grinding loot with my high level characters. In fact normally when I reach cap I simply re-roll the character. Even so I kept him around because he works just fine as a 28 point build, even for a class that needs several different stats at decent levels.




You are being very disingenuous here. You are trying to change the argument to 'its possible to make a good 28pt build, why are people complaining?'. The true argument is, 'given a particular 28pt build, could you make it slightly better with 4 additional build points?' This is obviously true, even if all you are doing is increasing your will save by 1 or your umd skill by 1 or whatever. Therefore, the statement that, 'relative to an equivalent 32pt build, a 28pt build is slightly gimped' is undeniably true.



This is not an argument about whether a 28pt build can be effective. They can be, and I consider Case's build on cannith to be a highly effective 28pt build. If he had 4 more build points, his hp would be 17 higher than they are right now and I would have got a +2 str tome as my 1750 favor rather than a +2 int tome. Neither of these things are deal breakers for the type of character he is.

However, if I had the choice of building him with 28pts or with 32pts, guess which one I would pick?

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 12:50 PM
then id would be better to remove 32pt alltogether while those rolled 32pts stay 32pt
then there wont be any problem anymore

I would actually be fine with this, provided that a completely new server was put in with the change. Then the newcomers could go and play on a completely level playing field. Sadly, cannith wouldn't be a possibility for this anymore as we now have 32pt builds running around on it - I've contributed to this problem myself with a couple of such toons in the last couple of days :P

edit: the old servers would eventually die or be merged from this type of change, as probably no one would go to such servers as a new player. this wouldn't bother me, as at least it would only be those servers that died and not the whole game (which is a very real possibility if the f2p experiment fails).

Lorien_the_First_One
09-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Turbine has already said they have no intention of making 32pt builds purchasable.

When did they say that? The only quote I saw was in the Lama threads and it said, "not yet, but we have thought about it, convince us either way" and it led to a very long thread with no further dev feedback.




How is it you have no time to play the game to get the favor needed?

Are you playing the game at all? If yes, then you have the time it's just up to you whether or not you want to put in the effort.

And yet they allowed drow and FvS to be purchased. If you allow the 400 favor and 2500 favor unlocks to be purchased, why not the one in the middle?

Delt
09-22-2009, 01:15 PM
32 point builds (1750 favor) won't be available for purchase because it's a relatively hardcore purchase (as if those 4pts are relevant to anyone new to the game). It's a pain to unlock as a free player in comparison to VIP. If the free player genuinely likes the game and wants 32pt builds, they'll either purchase a lot of packs to grind out more favor or upgrade to VIP....which I imagine is Turbines ultimate goal.

I get the desire of VIPs who don't want to grind out favor...but come on, it ain't that difficult nowadays...you can do it in a matter of days. Make a cleric or haggle bard and your 28pointer won't end up a mule.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 01:55 PM
I'll put it simply. If 32pt builds become available for purchase I'm done. It has nothing to do with I did it you should have to or anything to that degree. It has to do with making it too easy. You might as well just make it to where everything can be bought that way nobody can whine about somebody having access to something they don't. Make all tomes available, make all weapons available, heck make pre-made level 20 alts available because "I don't have time to level my alt". None of the favor rewards should have been made available for purchase PERIOD. On that note classes and races shouldn't have been made as rewards in the first place but that's another thread.

skotm
09-22-2009, 01:59 PM
ok
I signed up for vip today I am a somewhat new player, played a bit at release but didnt have time to really get into it.

As a VIP player and if the path isnt to hard -- what is the best and fastest way to unlock the 32 point build? Yes id prefer to purchase it and if i dont achieve the 32 point build relatively quickley... the queston of me renewing next month or continuing to play .... I am a 1 character player, I get attached to my character and have never had multipul players in games.

Avonwey
09-22-2009, 02:01 PM
I'll put it simply. If 32pt builds become available for purchase I'm done. It has nothing to do with I did it you should have to or anything to that degree. It has to do with making it too easy. You might as well just make it to where everything can be bought that way nobody can whine about somebody having access to something they don't. Make all tomes available, make all weapons available, heck make pre-made level 20 alts available because "I don't have time to level my alt". None of the favor rewards should have been made available for purchase PERIOD. On that note classes and races shouldn't have been made as rewards in the first place but that's another thread.

Go ahead and take your ball and go home. See if anyone cares.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-22-2009, 02:03 PM
I'll put it simply. If 32pt builds become available for purchase I'm done. It has nothing to do with I did it you should have to or anything to that degree. It has to do with making it too easy. You might as well just make it to where everything can be bought that way nobody can whine about somebody having access to something they don't. Make all tomes available, make all weapons available, heck make pre-made level 20 alts available because "I don't have time to level my alt". None of the favor rewards should have been made available for purchase PERIOD. On that note classes and races shouldn't have been made as rewards in the first place but that's another thread.

Then why didnt you quit when they made FvS and drow available for sale? The logic you are using is completely inconsistant.



Go ahead and take your ball and go home. See if anyone cares.

I do, KK is a good person and a good player.

Uska
09-22-2009, 02:03 PM
Just because they did one stupid thing doesn't mean they should do another.

While their at it, a lot of people would be interested in buying WoP rapiers, raid loot, and lvl 20 characters...

Sadly very true +1

Lorien_the_First_One
09-22-2009, 02:05 PM
32 point builds (1750 favor) won't be available for purchase because it's a relatively hardcore purchase (as if those 4pts are relevant to anyone new to the game). It's a pain to unlock as a free player in comparison to VIP. If the free player genuinely likes the game and wants 32pt builds, they'll either purchase a lot of packs to grind out more favor or upgrade to VIP....which I imagine is Turbines ultimate goal.

I get the desire of VIPs who don't want to grind out favor...but come on, it ain't that difficult nowadays...you can do it in a matter of days. Make a cleric or haggle bard and your 28pointer won't end up a mule.

32 point is a DUMB mechanic. It never should have been in the game. Given new players a ****tier build (I know marginal, but you can't argue its making it too easy giving it to them and that its marginal, pick one, it matters or not).

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 02:07 PM
Then why didnt you quit when they made FvS and drow available for sale? The logic you are using is completely inconsistant.

Actually I did take some time off and I considered not returning but I have frieds in game I missed.


I do, KK is a good person and a good player.

Thanks the feeling is mutual. :)

Uska
09-22-2009, 02:07 PM
Not going to happen...
You've GOT to have some goal out there thats NOT purchaseable!
Come ON guys, don't keep trying to hit the EASY button!

yup and a +1 for you to.

KoboldKiller
09-22-2009, 02:10 PM
Anyway, I have made my stance clear and neither side is going to give.

So I bid you all a good day.

May your loot be plentiful.

Uska
09-22-2009, 02:11 PM
Since unlocking 32 pt builds, have you ever made a 28 pt build?

If not, then by your actions you agree that 32pt builds are more effective right?

If you still make 28 pt builds even though you have 32pt unlocked, then most people would think you were being less effective than you could be right?

Even adding +1 to a save or to a skill make a character slightly more effective, therefore it is true to say that a 28pt build is relatively weaker than an equivalent 32pt build.

You cant make a 28pt build on a server you have unlocked 32pt builds without taking the default build which is a senseless gimping of yourself(the default build not the 28pt character) and yes I have made 28pt builds after unlocking 32pt builds I started again on a new server without transfering a new character I have 32pt builds on two servers now and someday it might be more but I am no hurry to do so it took me a little over a year on each server.

Uska
09-22-2009, 02:16 PM
Go ahead and take your ball and go home. See if anyone cares.

I would care more if he/she left then some others.

Uska
09-22-2009, 02:18 PM
Anyway, I have made my stance clear and neither side is going to give.

So I bid you all a good day.

May your loot be plentiful.

and yours as well:)

Shanar
09-22-2009, 02:20 PM
Now I'm by no means a veteran of DDO, hell, I don't even have 1000 favor yet! But I've thought out build concepts and ideas and when rolling up the stats, I noticed there never isn't a HUGE difference between 28 points and 32. Sure it's +1 to your Will save or +1 to UMD or whatever. But does it make you gimped? Not really. And people don't seem to understand this, that 28 pts. aren't gimped in the slightest. All of my characters are 28 pts. obviously and no one has criticized me yet. And if I unlock 32 point builds, I wouldn't reroll a single one.

Also, I earned Drow. It really felt cool doing the quests and finally reaching that goal of making my drow character and just the knowledge of "I did it." And I feel the same way with 1750; I feel that people should earn it, and while it's not a huge difference, those extra 4 points just help to optimize and make a more polished version of any build.

NinetyNineTails
09-22-2009, 02:37 PM
There's no comparison between 32-point builds and raid-level gear. A character that doesn't have raid gear can go get raid gear. A 28 point character will never make up the advantages of a 32 point character. How much time and effort do people put in to getting +1 exceptional STAT via raid gear? And some people in this threat think that noobs should just shrug at +4 stat points at creation?

It always seemed strange to me that DDO encourages players to dump their first high-level characters, the ones they've made friends with and invested in emotionally, in favor of characters that they will be less attached to, but that have advantages that cannot be replaced. Seems at odds with the goal of making a maximally sticky MMOG.

Mercules
09-22-2009, 03:05 PM
I'll put it simply. If 32pt builds become available for purchase I'm done. It has nothing to do with I did it you should have to or anything to that degree. It has to do with making it too easy. You might as well just make it to where everything can be bought that way nobody can whine about somebody having access to something they don't. Make all tomes available, make all weapons available, heck make pre-made level 20 alts available because "I don't have time to level my alt". None of the favor rewards should have been made available for purchase PERIOD. On that note classes and races shouldn't have been made as rewards in the first place but that's another thread.

As I stated with the other side of the arguement,

28 vrs 32 isn't all that huge, not so huge that it is worth all this argument. Personally I believe that if they allow Drow and FvS to be unlocked or purchased, they should do the same with the 32 point build. It should be all or none.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-22-2009, 03:11 PM
Anyway, I have made my stance clear and neither side is going to give. .

Probably true... I don't recall anyone changing their mind in the LONG thread during beta either lol.

lucien123
09-22-2009, 03:14 PM
As a matter of fact, I HAVEN'T come back to DDO, even though "F2P" BECAUSE there's no 32pt buy option in the store.

I played in beta, open not closed, but was not impressed enough to pre-order. I was a paid customer for over two years with several purchases of the six month sub, but never managed to unlock 1750 favor on my highest level toon (who was once at lvl cap 12 but has been parked at 12 ever since).

Not only would I be willing to shell out money for 32pts, I would be willing to do it PER CHARACTER.

There's nothing else in this game I would be currently interested in purchasing.

ogboot
09-22-2009, 03:15 PM
Some things should be earned, not bought.

Thrudh
09-22-2009, 03:15 PM
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is certain things in this game are earned mostly favor rewards. If you do not wish to take the time to earn these favors then you don't get the benefit. Any purchasable favor rewards were a big mistake IMHO as it opens the door to this kind of stuff. Why not just do away with all favor rewards then? That way nobody has to earn anything. Make all Shroud weapons purchasable because I can tell you that's a bigger grind than earning 1750 favor and well people without those are behind everyone else right? Hell why not just turn this into a WoW clone where we all start equally and each build is the same and we all have the same equipment that way nobody can cry foul.

The problem with 32 point builds is that you can NEVER catch up... No one is saying make Shroud weapons purchasable (although they have done that slightly with small ingrediants)... There's no need... Fast or slow, I can get them someday...

But the 28-point character I build TODAY, no matter how long I play (UNLIKE EVERY OTHER REWARD), can never get those 4 points...

32-point characters as a reward (without being able to respect 28-point characters) was a TERRIBLE idea from the start...

Put it in the store... Turbine makes a lot of money, everyone's happy... There's still plenty of rewards from favor even without the 1750 mark... and there's still plenty of stuff to "earn" through hard work...

Mercules
09-22-2009, 03:16 PM
As a matter of fact, I HAVEN'T come back to DDO, even though "F2P" BECAUSE there's no 32pt buy option in the store.

I played in beta, open not closed, but was not impressed enough to pre-order. I was a paid customer for over two years with several purchases of the six month sub, but never managed to unlock 1750 favor on my highest level toon (who was once at lvl cap 12 but has been parked at 12 ever since).

Not only would I be willing to shell out money for 32pts, I would be willing to do it PER CHARACTER.

There's nothing else in this game I would be currently interested in purchasing.

For an extra +1 DC, to hit, or AC? Really?

Thrudh
09-22-2009, 03:17 PM
There's no comparison between 32-point builds and raid-level gear. A character that doesn't have raid gear can go get raid gear. A 28 point character will never make up the advantages of a 32 point character. How much time and effort do people put in to getting +1 exceptional STAT via raid gear? And some people in this threat think that noobs should just shrug at +4 stat points at creation?

It always seemed strange to me that DDO encourages players to dump their first high-level characters, the ones they've made friends with and invested in emotionally, in favor of characters that they will be less attached to, but that have advantages that cannot be replaced. Seems at odds with the goal of making a maximally sticky MMOG.

Exactly. +1 rep

Thrudh
09-22-2009, 03:20 PM
For an extra +1 DC, to hit, or AC? Really?


How much grinding do people do NOW for an extra +1 DC, to hit, or AC?

Exactly...

Visty
09-22-2009, 03:20 PM
As a matter of fact, I HAVEN'T come back to DDO, even though "F2P" BECAUSE there's no 32pt buy option in the store.

I played in beta, open not closed, but was not impressed enough to pre-order. I was a paid customer for over two years with several purchases of the six month sub, but never managed to unlock 1750 favor on my highest level toon (who was once at lvl cap 12 but has been parked at 12 ever since).

Not only would I be willing to shell out money for 32pts, I would be willing to do it PER CHARACTER.

There's nothing else in this game I would be currently interested in purchasing.
why are you paying turbine then if you havent come back?

Mercules
09-22-2009, 03:43 PM
How much grinding do people do NOW for an extra +1 DC, to hit, or AC?

Exactly...

Yet, the post I was commenting on was refusing to do the grinding for said +1 DC but instead wouldn't come back until he didn't have to.


Yes, people spend weeks grinding for an item that grants them a +1 DC, some people but you don't truly need the +1 DC to succeed at the content in the game. In any endeavor you have people who have to have every possible bonus and do everything they can. This is their obsession. That doesn't mean there is really anything more than a perceived improvement. For example, if you already hit everything on 2+ a +1 to your to hit does... wait for it... nothing.

lucien123
09-22-2009, 03:55 PM
why are you paying turbine then if you havent come back?

I don't understand the question. Turbine reactivated my account as F2P. You ARE aware that F2P customers can post, aren't you?

lucien123
09-22-2009, 04:02 PM
Yet, the post I was commenting on was refusing to do the grinding for said +1 DC but instead wouldn't come back until he didn't have to.


Yes, people spend weeks grinding for an item that grants them a +1 DC, some people but you don't truly need the +1 DC to succeed at the content in the game. In any endeavor you have people who have to have every possible bonus and do everything they can. This is their obsession. That doesn't mean there is really anything more than a perceived improvement. For example, if you already hit everything on 2+ a +1 to your to hit does... wait for it... nothing.

To put it as simply as I can: to ME grinding is not fun.

And on another note indirectly related to the OP's topic: I'm not currently spending any money on Turbine's games. Zero. None. Nada. That doesn't hurt ME in the least. Who does it hurt? The guys with the 32pts who don't want me to give Turbine money for at best, a +1 to hit, or DC or one save. Huh?

So a question to everyone AGAINST it: How would it impact YOUR gameplay if I was able to purchase 32pts? I mean, you'll still lead the kill count because I am after all a gimp player (the person behind the toon). And if I was adding to Turbine's apparently depleted DDO coffers, wouldn't that benefit YOU?

Visty
09-22-2009, 04:04 PM
I don't understand the question. Turbine reactivated my account as F2P. You ARE aware that F2P customers can post, aren't you?

well, it says communitymember under your name, thought f2p are called guests there

but still youre right, as you are premium now cause you had an account befor

nvm so

ashurum
09-22-2009, 04:06 PM
Both sides should just say what them mean instead of this BS getting spouted back and forth.

The people against the 32pt build being in the store don't want new players to learn. They think it is unfair that someone doesn't have to suffer through the favor grind that they had to.

The people for the 32pt build being in the store don't care about keeping players around or helping Turbine's bottom line. They just want something easier.

Delt
09-22-2009, 05:07 PM
To put it as simply as I can: to ME grinding is not fun.

And on another note indirectly related to the OP's topic: I'm not currently spending any money on Turbine's games. Zero. None. Nada. That doesn't hurt ME in the least. Who does it hurt? The guys with the 32pts who don't want me to give Turbine money for at best, a +1 to hit, or DC or one save. Huh?

So a question to everyone AGAINST it: How would it impact YOUR gameplay if I was able to purchase 32pts? I mean, you'll still lead the kill count because I am after all a gimp player (the person behind the toon). And if I was adding to Turbine's apparently depleted DDO coffers, wouldn't that benefit YOU?

There is nothing to really grind to be honest - you'll earn or come close to earning 1750 during the normal course of gameplay and levelling. There is enough content at this point to make it that way.

It is a grind if that's your sole focus, I suppose, and if the actual playing of the game is irrelevant until you have 32pt builds in hand...

...but really, if that's your stance, that's your problem.

At the end of the day, it's an unlockable perk for players that have played through a significant portion of the game. Does it effect MY game if you can buy it? No, not really. But it doesn't effect my game if you can buy all your raid gear either -- but I still think that would be a stupid idea.

Quanefel
09-22-2009, 05:23 PM
To put it as simply as I can: to ME grinding is not fun.

And on another note indirectly related to the OP's topic: I'm not currently spending any money on Turbine's games. Zero. None. Nada. That doesn't hurt ME in the least. Who does it hurt? The guys with the 32pts who don't want me to give Turbine money for at best, a +1 to hit, or DC or one save. Huh?

So a question to everyone AGAINST it: How would it impact YOUR gameplay if I was able to purchase 32pts? I mean, you'll still lead the kill count because I am after all a gimp player (the person behind the toon). And if I was adding to Turbine's apparently depleted DDO coffers, wouldn't that benefit YOU?


You aint going to start holding your breathe into they give you want you want, are you?

Cyr
09-22-2009, 05:24 PM
/signed

There is NO reason why 32 point builds should not be available in the shop. In fact not being able to make a toon to it's full potential until you run something with some other toon is one of the main complaints I used to hear about the game from new players. (Old players it was content/bugs/exploits).

Aesop
09-22-2009, 05:28 PM
Both sides should just say what them mean instead of this BS getting spouted back and forth.

The people against the 32pt build being in the store don't want new players to learn. They think it is unfair that someone doesn't have to suffer through the favor grind that they had to.

The people for the 32pt build being in the store don't care about keeping players around or helping Turbine's bottom line. They just want something easier.

My personal thing is that I have 32 point builds on 4 servers at this point ... and I've just started characters on Cannith.

I do not like that you have to play a character up to that point and then rebuild a new character to gain the benefits... its almost like wasting your time and some people are completely turned off by it. When respecs come out and they have options in place to upgrade 8 point character to 32 point characters then I think the problem will subside... but now its just annoying for some.

Aesop

Lorien_the_First_One
09-22-2009, 05:31 PM
The people for the 32pt build being in the store don't care about keeping players around or helping Turbine's bottom line. They just want something easier.

Well that's just dumb. I honestly don't see why anyone would quit over them adding it to the store. I suspect anyone who does has other issues with the game. As for Turbine's bottom line, this should help it buy moving some more TPs.

PSU93
09-22-2009, 05:46 PM
... Would you be better served if Turbine had a payed service to come to your house to play your character for you? How much would you be willing to pay for that?
I'd be willing to pay about $8/hour for that.
If it was a hot girl wearing skimpy clothes, about $15/hour.
If she stuck around afterwards to clean the house and make dinner, about $30/hour.

Ephemeral
09-22-2009, 07:39 PM
Both sides should just say what them mean instead of this BS getting spouted back and forth.

The people against the 32pt build being in the store don't want new players to learn. They think it is unfair that someone doesn't have to suffer through the favor grind that they had to.

The people for the 32pt build being in the store don't care about keeping players around or helping Turbine's bottom line. They just want something easier.

What is it with this thread and strawmen?

My assumptions:

i. for a veteran player, levelling a character up to 20 takes a few days, particularly on a server where full twink gear is available for the alt

ii. raid gear is extremely time consuming to obtain, and is bound to character

iii. many people with 28 pt builds from the start of the game have built up lots of raid gear on their toons

iv. any new toons made by people with 1750 favor are 32pt toons. If they had the option to make 28pt builds instead, they would choose to make 32pt builds because 32>28

The way that I see this particular matter is:

- new players don't want to have to grind out favor for a 28pt build when most of the players around them are using 32pt builds

- new players are predominantly casual, by which it is meant they have fewer play hours available to them in the week than hardcore players

- Turbine is aware that the no of casual / new players is a huge untapped market for them, and it represents the only real way to grow their DDO revenues

- 'Earning' 1750 does not take any special skill or effort; it merely takes time. If you are a veteran player you can grind out 1750 faster than if you are new, but ultimately its a matter of time spent running and rerunning quests



Based on these assumptions, my conclusions are that in prinicple, the only thing that veteran players 'lose' by making 32pt builds available is that their current 28pt'rs cannot be rerolled to 32pt without losing their bound loot. The bound loot in truth represents the real time investment made by the veterans, not the fact that their characters are level 20.

They don't like it that new players could potentially have 32pt characters bought from the store because they can't do the same for their existing 28pt'rs without losing the loot. This is the driver behind the calls for a respec mechanism before 32pt builds are buyable.


My view on this is slightly different. I consider that toons are ranked in this order:

32 pt builds with lots of uber gear > 28 pt builds with lots of uber gear >>> 32 pt builds with no gear > 28 pt builds with no gear

The uber gear is worth way more than 4 build points, and much of it takes days, weeks, or even months to accumulate.

What the veterans see when they don't want the buyable 32pt favor is the first half of that line, i.e.

32 pt builds with lots of uber gear > 28 pt builds with lots of uber gear

and they don't like the idea that their 28 pt builds are in theory worse than a newcomer buying 32 pt builds today and then getting all that loot. They didn't have the option with their first toon, so its unfair. This misses the point of course that the newcomer will be spending a whole load of time grinding that gear starting from today. If the veterans really wanted to, they could reroll their current 28pt'rs and get the loot again, but they don't want to do the grind again (understandably so).


What the newcomers see is the second half of that line, i.e.

32 pt builds with no gear > 28 pt builds with no gear

And they don't want to have 28 pt builds because they know that 32pt builds are better, and that their first toon is throwaway if they really care about having the 4 points.


The reason why I think 32pt builds should be buyable is because I see the middle of that line, i.e.:

28 pt builds with lots of uber gear >>> 32 pt builds with no gear

Whichever way you spin it, a 28pt build with full access to raid gear, +2 and +3 tomes etc, is better than a naked 32pt build. I am happy for 32pt builds to be made available to newcomers, because they will have characters they can get attached to, and over time they can aim to build up uber loot like the veterans.

Mani
09-22-2009, 07:43 PM
C'mon, there are lot of players interested in paying to get 32 point build from the store instead of reaching 1750 favor (just like drow and favored soul) and still there isn't this option ?
Turbine, are you sure you want our money? Seems you don't like them (I am a former european player, already a VIP on DDO:Eberron Unlimited but I have no time to farm 1750 and then do again the character, I'm ready to pay to buy 32 pnt build).

I’m curious… How much would you be willing to pay for 32 pt build access? Whats a fair price?
would it be worth 50$ bucks? 100$ 1000$ Priceless?

lucien123
09-22-2009, 08:02 PM
You aint going to start holding your breathe into they give you want you want, are you?

/sigh

There was neither threat nor implied tantrum in my post. I don't CARE if Turbine offers it or not, because right now I'm playing or not playing the F2P content available to me.

My statement remains the same, right now Turbine doesn't have anything I would spend money on in their store. Now if half-orcs or artificer was available in the store I would drop money on that also. The half-orc or artificer (or druid) options are at best months away, if ever. 32pts however is available now.

More options in the store gives me more options to spend money on Turbine's product which means MORE content for everyone.

BattleCircle
09-22-2009, 08:06 PM
You people do realize you are talking about 4 build points, which translates to 1 main stat point, and one dump stat. And you honestly think that makes your toon gimp?

Not by a long shot.

Players make their toons gimp, not build points.

The 32pt for 1750 favor is a reward.

Mostly it is a reward for playing and learning the game, and it is a very satisfying reward at that.

I am sure that eventually you will get your way, and 32 point builds will be a purchasable perk. And if/when it does happen I hope that the price is very expensive, like the cost of 2 character slots at the least.

balorlord
09-22-2009, 08:06 PM
Hey R3 we paying VIPS dont like you Freebies wanting to buy the **** KEY WORD "EARN IT!"

lucien123
09-22-2009, 08:18 PM
Hey R3 we paying VIPS dont like you Freebies wanting to buy the **** KEY WORD "EARN IT!"

Interesting. Turbine however seems to have based the future existence of this game on that very concept that, according to you, paying VIPS don't like; i.e., "Freebies buying the ****.

It is essential for the future survival of this game that Turbine comes up with options "Freebies" would be willing to drop money on. This is the business model that Turbine chose to keep the game afloat, because there weren't enough people willing (for whatever reason) to pay a monthly sub.

My question still stands. How does it negatively impact any VIP if more options are made available in the store? How does it positively impact if more options are available for "Freebies" to spend money on?

I think that should be the focus of the debate. Is it really relevant that it's EASY to grind out the favor? Or that's it just +1 to hit? If some sucker (raises hand) wants to spend money on the game that you love, which will allow Turbine to produce more content, why aren't you behind that 100 percent?

Mani
09-22-2009, 08:24 PM
C'mon, there are lot of players interested in paying to get 32 point build from the store instead of reaching 1750 favor (just like drow and favored soul) and still there isn't this option ?
Turbine, are you sure you want our money? Seems you don't like them (I am a former european player, already a VIP on DDO:Eberron Unlimited but I have no time to farm 1750 and then do again the character, I'm ready to pay to buy 32 pnt build).

Well I don’t really care if the DDO store has 32 pts. for sell. I mean as long as they were selling it for a fair price like 600$ bucks. But if it was going for 20 bucks It would be offensive to vet players.

transtemporal
09-22-2009, 08:47 PM
I used to be a fan of the "let everyone buy everything" idea but I think I've changed my mind on 32pt builds. Putting it in the store makes it seem like a cash grab on turbines part. New player? No ones gonna force you to buy 32pt builds... but some might say you were gimped, I'm sure thats not true. I'm sure your 28pt toons are perfectly fine.

Quanefel
09-22-2009, 10:00 PM
/sigh

There was neither threat nor implied tantrum in my post. I don't CARE if Turbine offers it or not, because right now I'm playing or not playing the F2P content available to me.

My statement remains the same, right now Turbine doesn't have anything I would spend money on in their store. Now if half-orcs or artificer was available in the store I would drop money on that also. The half-orc or artificer (or druid) options are at best months away, if ever. 32pts however is available now.

More options in the store gives me more options to spend money on Turbine's product which means MORE content for everyone.

Far be it for me to tell someone how to spend their own money. Even if that person is being nickel and dimed for things they don't actually need to spend money on. If anything, it is humorous.

Personally, I think you and others are better than that. That all of you are fully capable of acheiving the goal of 1750 favor for 32 point builds. If you need it. Sadly, I do not think many of you understand that. I also think the desire to be "equal" to Vet players has overridden common sense in some people.

I will agree that the more money you and people such as yourself spend in the store will probably bring us more content in the end. Yet for all that money you'll spend, how long will these people last in game once they grow bored of buying their way to the top or to "equality" in an MMO like this?

Also, like I have said many times to others with the same beliefs in the store: Open your wallet and don't ask questions.

Uska
09-22-2009, 10:48 PM
Well I don’t really care if the DDO store has 32 pts. for sell. I mean as long as they were selling it for a fair price like 600$ bucks. But if it was going for 20 bucks It would be offensive to vet players.

Actually if they are going to sell it about 20.00 would be right. Not that I am for selling it but if they do they dont need to make it insane but I dont want it to be 5.00 either.

zedorf
09-23-2009, 12:50 AM
I'm a casual player these days. Been playing on Cannith since day 1 and I'm now after 3 weeks up to around 200 favors. I'm not gonna have time to "learn" the game by reaching 1750 and then after that start another toon. I just want to focus on one toon as I'm sure many other casual players will. And I don't want to know that my toon after reaching lvl 20 with loads of bound gear, is a "lesser build"! Is that so difficult to understand?

Ok, this toon I'm playing now will not have that problem as I BOUGHT a Drow and made him a caster. However, I really wanted to play a human monk - but that is one combination that I know would benefit from 32pts. So in reality, I'm playing a toon I find less fun and thus the game less fun.

Btw, I've played fairly hard core in Europe, unlocked 1750 favors and capped 4 toons there (when lvl cap was 16) sp pls, no advices on how splendid 28pt builds you can do.

I'm sure Turbine can find some sort of compromise to keep everyone fairly happy. Completely change that 1750 favor. A +2 tome isn't worth as much as it used to be.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 02:34 AM
Well I don’t really care if the DDO store has 32 pts. for sell. I mean as long as they were selling it for a fair price like 600$ bucks. But if it was going for 20 bucks It would be offensive to vet players.

995 TP would be a fair price, on a per character basis.

This compares to 1495 TP for a tome of supreme ability +1.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 02:36 AM
You people do realize you are talking about 4 build points, which translates to 1 main stat point, and one dump stat. And you honestly think that makes your toon gimp?

Not by a long shot.

Players make their toons gimp, not build points.

The 32pt for 1750 favor is a reward.

Mostly it is a reward for playing and learning the game, and it is a very satisfying reward at that.

I am sure that eventually you will get your way, and 32 point builds will be a purchasable perk. And if/when it does happen I hope that the price is very expensive, like the cost of 2 character slots at the least.

If thats the case, why is it unlocked per server?

2 character slots equivalent seems like a reasonable price to me. I'd actually price it slightly lower than that, at 995 TP but we're not talking a huge difference between that and 1190 TP.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 02:41 AM
Far be it for me to tell someone how to spend their own money. Even if that person is being nickel and dimed for things they don't actually need to spend money on. If anything, it is humorous.

Personally, I think you and others are better than that. That all of you are fully capable of acheiving the goal of 1750 favor for 32 point builds. If you need it. Sadly, I do not think many of you understand that. I also think the desire to be "equal" to Vet players has overridden common sense in some people.

I will agree that the more money you and people such as yourself spend in the store will probably bring us more content in the end. Yet for all that money you'll spend, how long will these people last in game once they grow bored of buying their way to the top or to "equality" in an MMO like this?

Also, like I have said many times to others with the same beliefs in the store: Open your wallet and don't ask questions.

You don't seem to be listening to what newcomers are actually saying.

No one is asking to buy their way to the top; access to 32pt builds is hardly 'the top'. What is being asked for is a way to start on equal footing buildwise, so that the first toon you create is one that you can keep forever without thinking, 'man i wish i had had 32pt builds when i first created it'

favor rewards are great when they are given in-game to the character that earnt them. its like bind to character on acquire gear - its a reward to the specific toon for what that toon has achieved. the 32pt build reward is an account level reward that is completely irrelevant to the toon that earnt it. this is wrong.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 02:46 AM
I used to be a fan of the "let everyone buy everything" idea but I think I've changed my mind on 32pt builds. Putting it in the store makes it seem like a cash grab on turbines part. New player? No ones gonna force you to buy 32pt builds... but some might say you were gimped, I'm sure thats not true. I'm sure your 28pt toons are perfectly fine.

Ironically, this is the best and only argument i have heard about not being able to buy 32pt builds.

However, the counter arguments are that:

i. no-one will ever know that your toon is a 28pt'r

ii. the prejudice may well apply even if the reward is earned only through favor

If anyone cared to check my.ddo.com, they could hazard a guess at i. however my bet is that they would be looking more at overall build design rather than counting build points.

FluffyCalico
09-23-2009, 02:49 AM
Turbine has already said they have no intention of making 32pt builds purchasable.

.

Actually they said things they believe will sell well (barring raid loot) will show up in the store. IE 32 point will get there eventually.

FluffyCalico
09-23-2009, 02:58 AM
Well I don’t really care if the DDO store has 32 pts. for sell. I mean as long as they were selling it for a fair price like 600$ bucks. But if it was going for 20 bucks It would be offensive to vet players.

LMAO it takes a weekend to do. It should cost less than FVS.

The truth is this thread is all about no no they can't have it my epeen will shrink if everyone has this massive accomplishment that you can do in 1 weekend. Please do let the others have what I have. That is what this whole thread is about.

I mean you get over 1000 favor on accident just from leveling. Its not that hard to run a level 20 though 1-10 content on elite with 5 other level 20s doing the same thing. Anyone who thinks doing quests 10-19 levels below them on elite is hard needs to think about their toon. With that said between leveling up and running the low level stuff you missed you will be at about 1500. That last 200 might take some effort but not much. After all you are only trying to get 1750 its not like there is only 1750 to get.

So for anyone with a high level toon you should have no issue getting it in a weekend. However if you are level 1 well that is why the store should have the option.

Uska
09-23-2009, 04:12 AM
LMAO it takes a weekend to do. It should cost less than FVS.

The truth is this thread is all about no no they can't have it my epeen will shrink if everyone has this massive accomplishment that you can do in 1 weekend. Please do let the others have what I have. That is what this whole thread is about.

Most people have ZERO chance to get it done it a weekend

Chazzie
09-23-2009, 04:46 AM
I know many are going to say all kinds of things,and trust me I understand both side to the convo,but I Don't want to see 32pt builds put in the store,I did my time people should do there time,just like the vets did there time b4 me.....(Rutrow Shaggggy !!!) Here comes people saying " I'm a vet and I want to see it done",and new people saying "hey whys it hurting you you have 32pt"....so on and so on....All I'm saying Is I want to just have one more person (me) saying "Hey Turbine I vote No !!!"

Thank You have a good one :)

Chazzie

Twerpp
09-23-2009, 04:47 AM
They should sell the 32 point builds to any player.

Then make the NEW favor reward 36 point builds!

Letrii
09-23-2009, 05:36 AM
32 point is lower favor reward than FvS, so why should we pay more for it than we paid for FvS?

FluffyCalico
09-23-2009, 05:39 AM
32 point is lower favor reward than FvS, so why should we pay more for it than we paid for FvS?

Because most of the people who don't want 32 point sold have not unlocked FVS and are glad its for sale lol
You can sell what they want sold, just not what they don't want sold

Aesop
09-23-2009, 06:00 AM
Honestly once they get Respecs working they should just remove 28 point build options from the game and give all 28 point characters a 32 point rebuild.

I'd also like to see them add other things to the Store


Aasimir
Tiefling
Swashbuckler
etc stuff from the Complete and Races books

things that should not be added to the store are

Core classes (like Monk and Druid)
Core races (like Gnome, Half Elf and Half Orc)


Things I'm up in the air on for Store additions

Eberron Specific Races (Warforged, Shifter and Kalashtar)
Eberron Specific Classes (Artificer)


Aesop

Letrii
09-23-2009, 06:11 AM
Eberron specific should be treated as core, since it is core for this setting.

d1mitri
09-23-2009, 06:41 AM
The only reason I'm not having as much fun with this game is because of 28/32-points. Stuck with a drow with a class I hate. Thank you Turbine!

And hug you all people saying no. If you're saying 4 more points aren't that important, then why do you defend it almost religiously?

Thrudh
09-23-2009, 07:06 AM
You don't seem to be listening to what newcomers are actually saying.

No one is asking to buy their way to the top; access to 32pt builds is hardly 'the top'. What is being asked for is a way to start on equal footing buildwise, so that the first toon you create is one that you can keep forever without thinking, 'man i wish i had had 32pt builds when i first created it'

favor rewards are great when they are given in-game to the character that earnt them. its like bind to character on acquire gear - its a reward to the specific toon for what that toon has achieved. the 32pt build reward is an account level reward that is completely irrelevant to the toon that earnt it. this is wrong.

Exactly... And the rest of you quit saying things like "VIP/veteran Players will be offended"... YOU will be offended, but I won't, so don't put words in my mouth...

The 32-point build choice was a stupid "reward", since it doesn't help the character that achieved it. It's the ONLY reward that works this way....

That said, to any new players reading this, I'm still playing my original 28-point dwarf cleric, and he rocks. The only difference between him and a 32 point cleric would be 4 CHA points (2 DVs - 50 Spell Points I can give to another player), or 2 CON (20 more hps on a 450 hp character).

These are tiny differences... His wisdom and strength are exactly the same as any 32-point character.. His spell power and healing is exactly the same as a 32-point character...

But I'm still for selling 32-point characters, because too many people can't stand to be missing those 20 hps at end-game.

Gum
09-23-2009, 07:21 AM
I would love to pay for 32 point upgrade. Some of us have crazy erratic schedules, and just don't have as much time to get there. In our cases, it's not about the effort, it's about the time RL allows for DnDEU.

apacheizm23
09-23-2009, 07:38 AM
Turbine has already said they have no intention of making 32pt builds purchasable.

How is it you have no time to play the game to get the favor needed?

Are you playing the game at all? If yes, then you have the time it's just up to you whether or not you want to put in the effort.


Agreed.. . If they start to Give/Sell away 32Pt builds then truly Turbine has lost its #N mind.

Holinyx
09-23-2009, 07:47 AM
"Quote:
Originally Posted by FluffyCalico
LMAO it takes a weekend to do. It should cost less than FVS.

The truth is this thread is all about no no they can't have it my epeen will shrink if everyone has this massive accomplishment that you can do in 1 weekend. Please do let the others have what I have. That is what this whole thread is about.

Most people have ZERO chance to get it done it a weekend"



I want to have the option of the 32pt build. i've been playing as much as i can and i'm still at only 900 Favor, at this rate it'll take months. I don't have the free time and/or uber friends to help me run it in a weekend or whatever. I have not been playing for the last 3 years like 99% of you it seems; therefore i'll be even longer trying to sneak and hide through every dungeon since i don't know where i'm going. Buying a 32pt build is a luxury item for the noobs like me, not the Vets like you who can get 4 billion favor in 2 days. I can't level a toon to 20 in 6 hours like you. and i'm sick of having this argument with nearly everyone here. Not everyone has been grinding this game for 3 years. please keep this fact in mind. thank you.

Letrii
09-23-2009, 07:51 AM
The 32-point build choice was a stupid "reward", since it doesn't help the character that achieved it. It's the ONLY reward that works this way....



Drow and FvS are also rewards that don't help the character that earned them.

apacheizm23
09-23-2009, 07:54 AM
Play the game! This is 2 funny. 1750 Favor is part of the game its been part of the game for as long as I can remember over (3Yr),and we all have lives so I don't want to hear that BS!!
Again Its part of the game. As in any game you do Y you get X reward/win/points etc. Here is an example Blank Blank!.. In baseball u need to hit the ball to an open area of the field then u run around the bases but EX. touch first base before going unto second base Duh!!!!!! Understand??
Its part of the GAME!! U work/play you're way up?? Does that make any sense 2 you

You can get the favor in a short amount of time if you wanted 2!! If you wanted 2.. Notice how I said it twice? By the way I am so bored at work....:cool::eek::D

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f262/apacheizm23/az6naajpg.gif

GreyRogue
09-23-2009, 07:55 AM
32 point is lower favor reward than FvS, so why should we pay more for it than we paid for FvS?

Because 32 point builds are much more useful and probably more desirable than unlocking FvS (don't get me wrong, I bought FvS as soon as I logged in on Sept 1). 32 point builds will improve every new character you make, while buying FvS will (obviously) only help out any FvS's you make.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 08:17 AM
Drow and FvS are also rewards that don't help the character that earned them.

And these are now sold in the store. 32pt builds are the exception that need to be changed and also sold in store.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 08:19 AM
because Most Of The People Who Don't Want 32 Point Sold Have Not Unlocked Fvs And Are Glad Its For Sale Lol
You Can Sell What They Want Sold, Just Not What They Don't Want Sold

Qft

SableShadow
09-23-2009, 08:36 AM
Honestly once they get Respecs working they should just remove 28 point build options from the game and give all 28 point characters a 32 point rebuild.

Oh, I don't know...if it was a linear reward (1750 and upgrade), I think the objections would vanish. People don't mind grinding out a thing, as long as they feel the reward matched the effort.

It's simply that the 'toon' people don't understand the 'character' people...since 'toons' are deleted and rerolled at the drop of a bra, they seem to think the 'character' people want something for free, when really the 'character' people just want to keep their 'characters' and be able to reach, at least theoretically, the same maximums.

I'm more than a little surprised that no one seems annoyed about selling FvS...

Mercules
09-23-2009, 08:49 AM
To put it as simply as I can: to ME grinding is not fun.


Never said you had to grind, in fact I pointed out that I believed that as long as several OTHER favor rewards are being sold, this should be available as well.


Honestly once they get Respecs working they should just remove 28 point build options from the game and give all 28 point characters a 32 point rebuild.


Agreed as it would solve a LOT of issues.


The only reason I'm not having as much fun with this game is because of 28/32-points. Stuck with a drow with a class I hate. Thank you Turbine!

And hug you all people saying no. If you're saying 4 more points aren't that important, then why do you defend it almost religiously?


Seriously???. Unlocked Drow on Cannith, but I won't make one because my 28 point Human Monk will function just fine. I wouldn't mind being able to buy 32 point builds especially if it unlocked them on all servers, but I don't need a 32 point build to do things in this game. As I stated, it is a few more HPs, +1 DC, +1 AC, or +1 To Hit and such. Wooooo. :p

miceelf88
09-23-2009, 09:04 AM
People are leaving the game over 28/32??? Really? I just find that so foreign, it's hard to relate. I didn't worry about such things at all before I unlocked, and still don't really. (and because my own vice is trying to get through every adventure available to me, not just the leveling core adventures, I got to 1750 in the natural course of things around level 12-13). In practical terms, it's one or two points of a relevant stat (bumping from 15 to 16 takes more than one point, etc).

I really hope that people aren't actually leaving the game over this. If that's the kind of thing that keeps one up at night fretting, it's going to be a long and sad existence on DDO.

d1mitri
09-23-2009, 09:08 AM
Never said you had to grind, in fact I pointed out that I believed that as long as several OTHER favor rewards are being sold, this should be available as well.

Agreed as it would solve a LOT of issues.

Seriously???. Unlocked Drow on Cannith, but I won't make one because my 28 point Human Monk will function just fine. I wouldn't mind being able to buy 32 point builds especially if it unlocked them on all servers, but I don't need a 32 point build to do things in this game. As I stated, it is a few more HPs, +1 DC, +1 AC, or +1 To Hit and such. Wooooo. :p
Then remove 32-points altogether if doesn't make such a difference. All characters should have equal potential... Besides, you forget - it doesn't matter much when you're level 20... but it gives a pretty big advantage in low levels. It could very well mean the difference between completing a dungeon and wiping.


I really hope that people aren't actually leaving the game over this. If that's the kind of thing that keeps one up at night fretting, it's going to be a long and sad existence on DDO.
If I was seriously considering leaving (and still am), I can bet plenty of people do. Just pointing it out.

Samiusbot
09-23-2009, 09:12 AM
Irrelevant.

Make 32 pt builds available now, and treat respec of exisiting 28 pt builds as a separate problem.

The availability of 32pt builds in shop is causing new players to discontinue with the game. This is a major issue and can be easily fixed.

The non-availability of a respec from 28 to 32pt builds is annoying, but the existing playerbase has learned to live with it. For those with little or no raid loot on their 28 pt builds, they can easily reroll. For those with lots of raid loot, its a question of which they want more, 4pts on their build or the raid loot they have acquired to date. Its not a major issue.

And before I get ad-hominem'd for that statement, my toon on cannith already has acquired some really nice bound to character gear, including icy raiments, which I would have no guarantee of obtaining again quickly if i was to reroll to 32pts. So i am in the same boat, and I have no issue with 32pt builds being buyable.


28 to 32 point up grade would be how I would handle it, and i would bet Turbine too.

1, Why would a VIP player ever use this unless they are new to the game and just want the 32 point builds a older VIP that has unlocked 32 points would almost never need a server unlock, unless they want to start to play on a new server. But I easily see VIPs using a 28 point upgrade service to make there just as great PC's even better! And they can just as easily upgrade the PC at first level.
2, Why would you have a one time fee when you could have a many time fee? If it cost around 300 TP points to go 28 to 32 then I can see upgrading older PC's at a steady pace. Pc's I might have as bank guys for 32 point builds. Even though they are tomed and geared out.
3, Why do 2x the work if the same amount of work can solve both problems why do more work and have two different solutions?

So from a micro transactions thought I see this as the way we will be going for something so powerful.

-Satureon-
09-23-2009, 09:18 AM
C'mon, there are lot of players interested in paying to get 32 point build from the store instead of reaching 1750 favor (just like drow and favored soul) and still there isn't this option ?
Turbine, are you sure you want our money? Seems you don't like them (I am a former european player, already a VIP on DDO:Eberron Unlimited but I have no time to farm 1750 and then do again the character, I'm ready to pay to buy 32 pnt build).

I did that in 2-3 weeks (1750), and played only at evenings.
Buying 32pt builds could be a bit rude imo...
If you havent got time to play the game, what do you want then?

When they implemented to buy drow and fvs and warforged, they just did a really big mistake...

miceelf88
09-23-2009, 09:21 AM
Again, I have to say this is a very foreign conversation to me. Do lowbies really sit around after a wipe in STK or whatever and try to figure out which player had the 28 point build that "caused" the party wipe?

Every wipe I've ever been in, at any level, has been due to one of three things:

1. bad play/decision making. Missing jumps in the pit. poor aggro management. zerging when one isn't prepared/skilled enough to do it well. etc. 32 point builds won't solve that problem.

2. Fundamentally flawed builds that don't do what they're intending to do. DPS that either can't hit or don't do damage. Tanks that don't have the requisite AC or can't hold aggro. Casters with REALLY low dc's. a poorly thought out multiclass. Etc. Honestly, a single point to DC or AC isn't going to solve that problem either. 32 point builds increase by 5% the odds of either a spell going off, a hit being avoided or landed, etc. But not all of these things. If your 28 build is really gimped, adding a point of STR isn't going to fix it.

3. Basic equipment lacking. Not being prepped to bypass DR. Again, 32 point won't affect this.

I honestly don't have strong feelings about whether to buy 32 point or not. But this notion that it's a signficant barrier to gameplay makes me think that selling it would be a bad idea. If everyone had 32 point builds, what would they blame their failures on then?

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 09:47 AM
28 to 32 point up grade would be how I would handle it, and i would bet Turbine too.

1, Why would a VIP player ever use this unless they are new to the game and just want the 32 point builds a older VIP that has unlocked 32 points would almost never need a server unlock, unless they want to start to play on a new server. But I easily see VIPs using a 28 point upgrade service to make there just as great PC's even better! And they can just as easily upgrade the PC at first level.
2, Why would you have a one time fee when you could have a many time fee? If it cost around 300 TP points to go 28 to 32 then I can see upgrading older PC's at a steady pace. Pc's I might have as bank guys for 32 point builds. Even though they are tomed and geared out.
3, Why do 2x the work if the same amount of work can solve both problems why do more work and have two different solutions?

So from a micro transactions thought I see this as the way we will be going for something so powerful.

This may be the 'best' way to handle buyable 32pt builds, however its not the easiest to implement.

As I stated in my post, really we are looking at two different but related issues:

- allowing people without 1750 favor to buy 32pt builds (easy to implement, as the code already exists for this through the unlock via Nyx mechanism)

- allowing a respec of 28pt builds to 32pt builds (presumably difficult to implement, with many prerequisites such as minimum levels on tomes needing to be in place first)

If newcomers are leaving right now because of the first issue, then fix that right now and make 32pt builds buyable through the store.

For the second issue, continue to work on it and provide it to veterans when the functionality is ready.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 09:54 AM
People are leaving the game over 28/32??? Really? I just find that so foreign, it's hard to relate. I didn't worry about such things at all before I unlocked, and still don't really. (and because my own vice is trying to get through every adventure available to me, not just the leveling core adventures, I got to 1750 in the natural course of things around level 12-13). In practical terms, it's one or two points of a relevant stat (bumping from 15 to 16 takes more than one point, etc).

I really hope that people aren't actually leaving the game over this. If that's the kind of thing that keeps one up at night fretting, it's going to be a long and sad existence on DDO.

People are leaving because of this, and many people who don't leave find it discouraging. Your opinion may be different, however that does not negate the feedback that many people are posting on threads like this one.

And to address a misconception in your thinking - 28pts are sufficient for the majority of character concepts, particularly where there is a focus on one set of activities (e.g. pure barbs, sorcs, clerics). However, there are some classes (monk, paladin) and character concepts (mixtures of melee / casting or melee / skills) that are much better with the extra 4 build points.

Mercules
09-23-2009, 10:28 AM
... but it gives a pretty big advantage in low levels. It could very well mean the difference between completing a dungeon and wiping.

~Very~ unlikely since the low levels are rather forgiving, much more so than the higher levels.


However, there are some classes (monk, paladin) and character concepts (mixtures of melee / casting or melee / skills) that are much better with the extra 4 build points.

That "much" is subjective. Would my Monk on Cannith be better with 4 more stat points, yes, but how much is the question. If I stuck it into the most useful for leveling areas then I gain 6 HPs, 8 Fort save instead of 7, and +1 to Damage. If I put it into, concerned about end game, it would likely go into Dex and have little to no impact until I got a +1 Tome and then again with a +3 tome.

DSC
09-23-2009, 10:35 AM
There's no way they'll make 32-pt builds more accessible until they have respec working. Once they do, you'll probably see 32-pt builds given to everyone, with maybe a higher build as a favor reward or store item.

NinetyNineTails
09-23-2009, 11:11 AM
You people do realize you are talking about 4 build points, which translates to 1 main stat point, and one dump stat. And you honestly think that makes your toon gimp?

That really depends on what you mean when you use the word 'gimp'.

Personally, I don't like arguing over 'gimp'. It doesn't have a sufficiently well established definition.

If 'gimp' means 'your character sucks and is ineffective', then, no, 28 point builds aren't necessarily gimped. Plenty of 28 point builds do the toughest content in the game every day.

If 'gimp' means 'permanently and unavoidably less effective than the alternative', then, yes, 28 point builds are absolutely gimped compared to 32 point builds. There is no 28 point build that is not made materially better by another 4 stat points at creation, and the 28 point build can never made up that head start in any way.

amyndris
09-23-2009, 11:12 AM
For me, I'd love to buy it. I'm working my way grinding to 1750 faction, but I'm not really "enjoying" the game (currently at about 700).

The problem is, I know my current Dwarf Fighter 7/ Paladin 2 is a giant waste of space. As soon as I unlock 1750, the 100 hours I put into it is completely wasted and I'm going to reroll another Dwarf Fighter 18/Paladin 2, do the same quests again, get the same feats again, get the same skills again, etc.

Nothing about my gameplay is going to change, but I'm going to have to spend another 60 hours to "farm" that favor.

That's what's disappointing. Knowing that I'm investing so much time into a worthless character that once I hit 1750, I'm never ever going to touch again, except maybe as extra bankslots. And I can get that with a level 1 character

Look, I like DDO, it's a lot of fun. I just don't think it's fun enough that I want to do Korthos Island again with the same everything.

skotm
09-23-2009, 11:18 AM
Ill ask this again.
As a new player how can you gring out the favor quickley like a few others say?

I personally get attached to a character and dont want to have to reroll and do the same quests over again..

It is very discoraging.

KoboldKiller
09-23-2009, 11:27 AM
I'm going to add one more thing to this thread and I'm done. I see several people talking about having to re-roll and do it all over again. Your going to have to do it all over again anyway seeing as there isn't enough to do to keep your ONE alt occupied all the time. This is a moot point. Not only that but nobody says you HAVE to re-roll your original 28 pt as has been pointed out several times 28pt builds are being used at end game all the time. Many of us have several builds because at some point rolling new alts is all there is left to do. Anyway this is my final word on this whole subject.

Have a great day.

shores11
09-23-2009, 11:29 AM
Because I'm not interested in reaching 1750 with a "gimped" char and even if I played for 2+ years on european server, I still don't like zerging too much. Se let me buy my 32 point toon like I can buy drow or FvS.

Every single time a player says this (see highlighted words above) I am so very confused. I have been playing 3 1/2 years and reach 1750 favor on everyone of my 6 characters. Of my 6 characters 3 are 28 point builds (a wizard, a ranger & a rogue) and 3 are 32 point builds (a cleric, a paladin, a bard). I truely enjoy all of my characters and play them all but I find I play my wizard and rogue the most.

To summarize the point of the paragraph above my 28 point characters are in no way gimped (period). I can compete on them with any player in any quest on any difficulty and most of the time lead them in kills, survivability and play. To say a 28 point character is gimped may be your opinion but the fact is that your wrong. It may be in fact that the player is gimped and a 32 point build will not fix that.

I never zerg so it can be done without zerging.

DSC
09-23-2009, 11:34 AM
Yes, but the issue for some people is that a 28-point character is (currently) always worse than it could be. Forever.

You can argue that it's not materially worse, and most of the time you'd be right, but nevertheless that fact really grates on people. This is one of the only games I've ever encountered where your original character - the character on whom you actually earn the favor! - is permanently "worse" than every character that follows it, and there is no way to ever make up that deficit.

r3dl4nce
09-23-2009, 11:39 AM
I come from euro server, as I said, and there I have 1750 favor unlocked. I know that a a 28 point is usable but I am a minmaxer too. So I want the best I can for my characters. Creating a new character that I'll have to reroll (because I want the best) is stupid. And why a wizard can simply buy drow and GG? And why a Favored Soul can simply buy the class and never reach 2500 favor? What's the problem in putting in the shop the 32 point build? Who want the 32 point build, now or later, will reach 1750 favor. So what's the problem in having the 32 point now instead of later? It's not that after having the 32 point I have the char done. I have still to play it, take it to cap, get raid items, and so on. 32 point is the common start now. Wizard, Sorcerer, Bards, they all have an advantage. Favores Soul too. Where is the love for all the others classes/races ?

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 11:39 AM
Ill ask this again.
As a new player how can you gring out the favor quickley like a few others say?

I personally get attached to a character and dont want to have to reroll and do the same quests over again..

It is very discoraging.

The easiest way (and how I did it when i got my 1750 on khyber) imo is to make a wf wizard to start with. Go with stats similar to str 12, dex 8, con 16, int 18, wis 8, cha 6. On Korthos, use the ember greataxe and hack and slash your way through all quests to elite (preferably find a group if you can, it tends to be quicker with an organised group). Go across to Stormreach and concentrate on powerlevelling. Don't worry overly much about getting favor at this point, but do enough to get useful things like the extra inventory slots from the coin lords.

Try to keep up to date with spells and items as you powerlevel, focusing particularly on getting hold of potency and power items. Its useful to find a good group of players to run with if you can, this will dramatically speed up the levelling process. Its good to also look for a decent guild in your middle levels.

By the time you hit your early teens, your wf wizard will start to become a powerhouse. Firewall is the first milestone on this road, and the journey is more or less complete when you get reconstruct at level 11. At this point, you will probably not have a huge amount of favor (I would estimate realistically you will have maybe around 600) because you will have been repeating high xp quests such as deleras, stormcleave, gwylans, tear, xorian cypher and so on.

Now comes the favor grind. With firewall, reconstruct, stoneskin, dimension door and other assorted spells, you'll be able to blow through the early favor that you missed on your way up. Best is to be a vip so you can start straight on hard. Always look out for favor groups, as these tend to have elite openers for many of the quests they run.

At the same time, mix in a bit of levelling and loot running to keep you sane. Additionally, you will need to be in groups to handle the higher level quests, particularly in places like GH.

By the time you hit about 14-15th level, you will either have achieved 1750 or be close to it, depending on your capacity to endure the boredom of running low level stuff.

Total time to get there for an experienced player would be in the region of 2-3 weeks, playing several hours per day (say 6 hours per day).


The really nice thing is that your wf wiz will be perfectly usable as an end-game build with the stat distribution given.

miceelf88
09-23-2009, 11:44 AM
There's no need to reroll a 28 point character. as MANY people who have both 28 and 32 point chars have noted, the 28 point chars are by no means gimped. If you're obsessed about the fact that there's a theoretical possibility that your character could have slightly higher stats, when this fact has no reflection whatsoever on your ability to complete dungeons and contribute to a team, well, you're going to hate a lot of things about this game.

The advantage of a 32 pt character over a 28 pt character is very small compared to the advantage of a twinked lowbie character over a non-twinked lowbie character. That rogue you're running with in waterworks, who's got the fancy gear has a much bigger advantage over you than does a non-twinked 32 pt character. Does that mean that the really good gear should also be for sale?

And at higher levels, shrould items really make a much bigger difference than 4 build points. SHould shroud gear also be for sale (it's much more of a grind even prepping for the shroud, let alone getting the gear than it is to get to 1750.)

And the complicated builds taht are supposedly so sensitive to the 28/32 difference? They're also very sensitive to gear and tomes.

miceelf88
09-23-2009, 11:48 AM
I know we disagree on this (and I also disagree with you about the advice to essentially grind xp then grind favor, although I understand if speed is of the essense it's probably the best way).

But I have to say, good advice about the wf wizzy build.

DSC
09-23-2009, 11:55 AM
And the complicated builds taht are supposedly so sensitive to the 28/32 difference? They're also very sensitive to gear and tomes.

Right, but you could someday earn the gear and tomes, even if you are nowhere close to it now. You can never earn the 32-point build without rerolling (until they introduce full respecs, which I personally wager we'll see in the next six months).

I don't think that people who argue in favor of the current system realize what a huge turn-off it is for some new players. Not everyone, certainly, but there are a number of people who want the potential for their character to be the "best that it can be". If it were possible to apply the 32-point build to your character after you earned it, I think 99% of the complaining about it would disappear - but as it is, it's a huge negative for certain perfectionist/completionist players (a common MMO mindset), and some of those people quit the game as soon as they realize what the system means for their first character.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 11:59 AM
I know we disagree on this (and I also disagree with you about the advice to essentially grind xp then grind favor, although I understand if speed is of the essense it's probably the best way).

But I have to say, good advice about the wf wizzy build.

Don't get me wrong - i think that a newcomer to DDO grinding xp like this is a surefire recipe to set wrong expectations and wrong playstyles over the game. However, this for me is at the heart of the stupidity that is 32pt favor. A powergamer coming to DDO who cares about having 32pt access is likely to adopt a strategy similar to the one I outlined, and in doing so they will miss the charm of the game. If we just gave everyone equal starting builds, and gave an in-game favor reward for 1750, then the grind i described would simply not be necessary, and powergamers or people who are really bothered about having a lesser build would be able to enjoy the scenery and smell the roses on the way up.

I honestly believe that 1750 favor / 32pt builds are a root cause of the zerging mentality prevalent amongst vets of ddo. Many people have commented that they are amazed by the speed at which ddo vets complete quests; its a completely different playstyle to what you find in other mmos. I think a huge underlying reason for this is that we have all at one point or another been hit by the favor grind, and found ways to speed up our play to relieve the inherent boredom of grinding easy quests.

miceelf88
09-23-2009, 12:04 PM
DSC- I agree, and I would definitely support the availability of a respec, on reaching the requisite favor, from 28-32 (and not just at that moment, but for anyone ever). But I think many of the people who are turned off just have to be in their minds exaggerating the import of that difference.

My arguments aren't against a respec, but against making 32 point builds buyable.

ashurum
09-23-2009, 12:14 PM
What is it with this thread and strawmen?

My assumptions:

i. for a veteran player, levelling a character up to 20 takes a few days, particularly on a server where full twink gear is available for the alt

ii. raid gear is extremely time consuming to obtain, and is bound to character

iii. many people with 28 pt builds from the start of the game have built up lots of raid gear on their toons

iv. any new toons made by people with 1750 favor are 32pt toons. If they had the option to make 28pt builds instead, they would choose to make 32pt builds because 32>28

The way that I see this particular matter is:

- new players don't want to have to grind out favor for a 28pt build when most of the players around them are using 32pt builds

- new players are predominantly casual, by which it is meant they have fewer play hours available to them in the week than hardcore players

- Turbine is aware that the no of casual / new players is a huge untapped market for them, and it represents the only real way to grow their DDO revenues

- 'Earning' 1750 does not take any special skill or effort; it merely takes time. If you are a veteran player you can grind out 1750 faster than if you are new, but ultimately its a matter of time spent running and rerunning quests



Based on these assumptions, my conclusions are that in prinicple, the only thing that veteran players 'lose' by making 32pt builds available is that their current 28pt'rs cannot be rerolled to 32pt without losing their bound loot. The bound loot in truth represents the real time investment made by the veterans, not the fact that their characters are level 20.

They don't like it that new players could potentially have 32pt characters bought from the store because they can't do the same for their existing 28pt'rs without losing the loot. This is the driver behind the calls for a respec mechanism before 32pt builds are buyable.


My view on this is slightly different. I consider that toons are ranked in this order:

32 pt builds with lots of uber gear > 28 pt builds with lots of uber gear >>> 32 pt builds with no gear > 28 pt builds with no gear

The uber gear is worth way more than 4 build points, and much of it takes days, weeks, or even months to accumulate.

What the veterans see when they don't want the buyable 32pt favor is the first half of that line, i.e.

32 pt builds with lots of uber gear > 28 pt builds with lots of uber gear

and they don't like the idea that their 28 pt builds are in theory worse than a newcomer buying 32 pt builds today and then getting all that loot. They didn't have the option with their first toon, so its unfair. This misses the point of course that the newcomer will be spending a whole load of time grinding that gear starting from today. If the veterans really wanted to, they could reroll their current 28pt'rs and get the loot again, but they don't want to do the grind again (understandably so).


What the newcomers see is the second half of that line, i.e.

32 pt builds with no gear > 28 pt builds with no gear

And they don't want to have 28 pt builds because they know that 32pt builds are better, and that their first toon is throwaway if they really care about having the 4 points.


The reason why I think 32pt builds should be buyable is because I see the middle of that line, i.e.:

28 pt builds with lots of uber gear >>> 32 pt builds with no gear

Whichever way you spin it, a 28pt build with full access to raid gear, +2 and +3 tomes etc, is better than a naked 32pt build. I am happy for 32pt builds to be made available to newcomers, because they will have characters they can get attached to, and over time they can aim to build up uber loot like the veterans.

I never committed a strawman arguement with that statement as I in no way tried to prove anyone wrong. I just think everyone is lying about the reasons they want one thing or the other.

I have drow unlocked from when I played way back so I could care less. I can just make a sorcerer to get to that 32pt build and it can still be argued that the drow make the best sorcerers.

Ephemeral
09-23-2009, 12:23 PM
I can just make a sorcerer to get to that 32pt build and it can still be argued that the drow make the best sorcerers.

Second best, after 32pt humans ;)

Samiusbot
09-23-2009, 12:57 PM
This may be the 'best' way to handle buyable 32pt builds, however its not the easiest to implement.

As I stated in my post, really we are looking at two different but related issues:

- allowing people without 1750 favor to buy 32pt builds (easy to implement, as the code already exists for this through the unlock via Nyx mechanism)

- allowing a respec of 28pt builds to 32pt builds (presumably difficult to implement, with many prerequisites such as minimum levels on tomes needing to be in place first)

If newcomers are leaving right now because of the first issue, then fix that right now and make 32pt builds buyable through the store.

For the second issue, continue to work on it and provide it to veterans when the functionality is ready.

You have a permanent unlock for 32 point builds (favor) if you want a 32 point build and want one so badly you get to buy a 28 to 32 point upgrade. Then if you want more you pay one on one or unlock all new via favor.

It is not like the start of this 28 to 32 point system is not in place, tomes now have a minimal level.

But the point is unlocking 32 point builds would cost a ton. If every new Pc can be 32 forever what would that need to be priced at to sell? When there is a demand for old 28 point to become 32 points, if older PCs cost to much then players will leave their 28 points "gimped" and play their 32s. Where new players can skip ahead, for a one time 3000 tps! It would have to be nuts costly to make up for the loss of long term sales. Vs 300 tp for a 28 to 32 upgrade always being used!

You are thinking of it as 2 different problems but it is not, it is the same problem. You are just not standing in the right place to see it.

If you made two 28s and made them 32s them played them as normal in the course of play you would get to 1750. You might never know you didn't have 32s unlocked, unless you want to make a new Pc. But that new PC could become 32 at anytime.

lucien123
09-23-2009, 02:11 PM
I think the best solution would be to remove 32pt builds from the game entirely, with no grandfathering for VIPs.

The 32pt build was a poor design decision.

And really, favor unlock for a class/race is also not good game design. But what the hey do I know, right?

Avonwey
09-23-2009, 02:12 PM
I think the best solution would be to remove 32pt builds from the game entirely, with no grandfathering for VIPs.

The 32pt build was a poor design decision.

And really, favor unlock for a class/race is also not good game design. But what the hey do I know, right?

I'm sure no one will complain about that though. And we'd return to the land of Drow.

lucien123
09-23-2009, 02:12 PM
The most fascinating thing to me about this conversation is the lack of commentary of what is BEST for the GAME/TURBINE, which to me seems to be the generation of as much revenue as quickly as possible.

d1mitri
09-23-2009, 02:32 PM
...you will have been repeating high xp quests such as deleras, stormcleave, gwylans, tear, xorian cypher and so on.

Now comes the favor grind. ...you'll be able to blow through the early favor that you missed on your way up...

At the same time, mix in a bit of levelling and loot running to keep you sane...

...depending on your capacity to endure the boredom of running low level stuff.

...(say 6 hours per day).
The parts that are not cut out is the reason why it is such a bad idea not to let people buy it, or come up with such a stupid reward system in the first place.

Good advice though, just that I'm not gonna do it.

Avonwey
09-23-2009, 02:36 PM
The most fascinating thing to me about this conversation is the lack of commentary of what is BEST for the GAME/TURBINE, which to me seems to be the generation of as much revenue as quickly as possible.

By this measurement the answer is fairly obvious: make them available in the DDO store.

Samiusbot
09-23-2009, 02:54 PM
The most fascinating thing to me about this conversation is the lack of commentary of what is BEST for the GAME/TURBINE, which to me seems to be the generation of as much revenue as quickly as possible.

Wouldn't the best be a large sudden influx of coin now, and a steady income of coin in the coming years?

Say everyone upgrading 28s to 32s then all the new PC's down the road that want to jump to 32's still have to pay or favor up?

Moneys now and moneys later. Sounds like the best plan to me.

But I am no moneylender.

Emili
09-23-2009, 02:59 PM
Face the thruth, as soon as you have 1750 favor , you roll a 32 point character. It was for the drow when first he came in game (I remember the harbor full of drows lol). So if they let buy the drow, why not let buy 32 point? As a former euro player, I'd like to recreate my toons here (already did with drow cleric, drow bought from shop) so why I can't recreate my 32 points and I have to zerg to 1750 (I don't like too much zerging) just ot delete that char and made another, simply better?
Zerg the drow cleric for the 1750... then you have no deleting.

Bosco
09-23-2009, 03:18 PM
The problem I feel with making 32 point builds available for purchase is it makes the players who have unlocked it feel less special. 1750 is a lot easier to do then back in the day when it was first released. It meant running quite a few of the raids on elite when the cap was level 12. Now those that have it, and those that struggled to achieve it feel cheated if someone can now purchase a 32 point build. But the struggle isn't really there anymore. In fact anyone with the time can basically level a toon to 20 and have 1750 favor in a few weeks. So those who think your special. Well you aren't.:eek:

Personally I don't have much of an elitist type attitude that some seem to portray in this thread. I have 32 point builds, but I don't have them across every server. I wish I did. Whether I would purchase them or not is a different story. From an economic standpoint I think it would serve Turbine well to offer players the ability to purchase 32 point builds somewhere in the neighborhood of 2200 points.

Why should other VIPs who unlocked it like to see this? Bottom line more revenue for Turbine equals more releases. Back when 1750 was introduced and Drow was introduced there were new mods coming out nearly every month and there was a healthy revenue stream coming into DDO. Then Turbine released LOTRO. DDO became the red headed stepchild. From the looks of things Turbines F2P option has brought new players in, increased its subscription based and also made more money off the F2P players buying points then from subscribers.

So how about giving the guys with the fat wallets that want to pay a break. 1750 isn't that special. Those without the time may just wish to pay to get a jumpstart and once again myself as well as everyone else with 32 point builds, we aren't that special.

skotm
09-23-2009, 03:19 PM
instead of selling classes 32 points etc..
They should sell favor you can apply as a single use.

Aesop
09-23-2009, 03:44 PM
I'm still in favor of Selling 32 point builds on a per server basis

600-900 TP per server.

I've earned it on 4 servers I think and don't really feel like doing it again on Cannith... I just want to play and not worry about it.

Why other people should care is beyond me.

Veterans had to earn it... so. You got the reward and didn't have to spend money on it ... congrats. You also got a +2 Tome.

Aesop

Stormanne
09-23-2009, 03:48 PM
I look at it this way. It's probably going to happen. The best case scenario for it, since it will eventually happen, is that they put it up for sale at the same time they put a mechanic in place to upgrade the existing 28 point builds to 32s. I think that to do one without the other is going to be completely disrespectful of both groups.

Aesop
09-23-2009, 03:54 PM
I look at it this way. It's probably going to happen. The best case scenario for it, since it will eventually happen, is that they put it up for sale at the same time they put a mechanic in place to upgrade the existing 28 point builds to 32s. I think that to do one without the other is going to be completely disrespectful of both groups.

That would be best I think

Aesop

krud
09-23-2009, 04:02 PM
This statement alone makes me laugh. First off you have now clue what my build or anyone's build may be. Your right being able to dump a few extra points into a meaningless stat is sure going to push me over the top. Or how about needing 6 points to hit an 18 on a stat, that extra 4 points giving me a 17 is really going to help isn't it? If you think having 28pts makes you gimp then you are and nothing is going to change that.
The converse of your arguement is IF it isn't such a big deal then why so much opposition to it? No argument over drow, why? It's the age-old "I had to walk 2 miles uphill, both ways, in a blinding snow storm, so should you." That is the only arguement I've seen for not having purchasable 32 pt (oh, and the slippery slope "give them all WoPs too" arguement).

What really needs to happen before they allow 32pt buys is a full respec option, upgradeable 28pt to 32pt, and rework the 1750 favor to be more character specific and remain meaningful. Allowing 32pt buys on its own is not a good idea .

Bosco
09-23-2009, 04:09 PM
I look at it this way. It's probably going to happen. The best case scenario for it, since it will eventually happen, is that they put it up for sale at the same time they put a mechanic in place to upgrade the existing 28 point builds to 32s. I think that to do one without the other is going to be completely disrespectful of both groups.

Bah, I wear the one 28 point build I have on Argo with pride. I could really give a rats behind if someone has 20 more hp or plus one more to str. I am old school. He is my second toon ever created and I wouldn't ever dream of deleting him. I created a Dwarf Ranger back when rangers where the most hated class in the game. I rocked with him, and continue to destroy stuff. So this whole notion that Turbine needs to go back and respect all the 28 point builds is ridiculous.

Turbine needs to spend time coming out with the next mod not hand hold the vets, and pat them on the back, wisper in their ears "It's going to be ok, we are going to make you feel special."

If someone has a 28 point toon that isn't good enough, well chances are 4 more points won't help either.

LoneRath
09-23-2009, 04:12 PM
I think the best solution would be to remove 32pt builds from the game entirely, with no grandfathering for VIPs.


If you do this you would have to make all the 32pt builds out there respec to 28pt. Otherwise there would always be the stigma that "if you had played the game X months ago you could have had a 32pt build, now you are stuck with 28pts."

The 32pt builds would ALWAYS be seen as being superior and everyone else that created after the removal is inherently "not as good". If you think it is bad now, remove 32pts from the game and see how many people quit or don't play when they find out about the perma-gimp new characters get compared to vets. I know I would absolutely never have played this game under those conditions.

When I first started this game I made a cleric, got drow, made a drow sorc, got 1750 after about a month total and started making all the characters I really wanted to make. The Cleric is stuck at 12, the drow sorc is still in use and almost capped again, but my most played classes are Monk, Ranger and Rogue 32pt builds.

I'm not a total min/max type, but I knew from the first day playing that I was going for 1750 favor. I made a throw-away character, the cleric, to get me there as quickly as possible as it is never hard to get a group with a cleric.

That cleric will probably never get played from here on out and I will end up rerolling him at a later date. He's not gimped, but he is also not as good as he could be. With the extra 4 points I could have a higher cha, int, or dex to make up for some of his weaker areas, but he is still 100% playable. I just can't get myself to bother because I know I could build him better now that I have 1750 favor.

That type of game mechanic is lame. Any in-game reward system that does not reward the character actually doing the work is, in a sense, broken. Make 750/1750/2500/4000 actually mean something for THAT character (maybe +1 tome, +2 tome, +3 tome, +4 tome?) and sell the drow, 32pt, FvS in the store. THAT makes sense and will actually make people WANT to grind the favor AND buy the offered store items.

There are probably a dozen really good ways to implement this, but the current favor system is not one of them.

Lone

Gum
09-23-2009, 04:26 PM
I'm still in favor of Selling 32 point builds on a per server basis

600-900 TP per server.

I've earned it on 4 servers I think and don't really feel like doing it again on Cannith... I just want to play and not worry about it.

Why other people should care is beyond me.

Veterans had to earn it... so. You got the reward and didn't have to spend money on it ... congrats. You also got a +2 Tome.

Aesop

/Signed This would be my argument against those that had to earn it and don't feel as special now that it's accessible to the masses. You got it for free! lol What's not special about that? Furthermore, you got a tome out of it. I honestly don't see any problem whatsoever in having 32 point upgrades in the DDO store, and I got my grind on for 32 like everyone else. If not having to spend money on it and getting a +2 tome isn't enough for them, give them a pirate hat, lol. Yarg! That extra +4 to builds at creation is well worth it imo. Especially for advanced point distribution builds like Paladins or Monks. It's not game-breaking if you don't have it, but it's a personal choice to reach your full potential, and customization is king imo.

Freeman
09-23-2009, 04:26 PM
This argument has been repeated several times now, and I don't believe it will change until there is an option to upgrade 28pt characters to 32pt characters. That is likely why they are finally planning to put some kind of respec mechanism into place in the next update. Once that is in place, they have many options available:


Sell both 32pt characters and respecs in the store, putting both veteran players and new players on equal footing.
Keep 32pt characters as a 1750 favor unlock, but allow the unlocking(non-drow) character a free upgrade to 32pts upon reaching it.(Eliminating the "I don't want to play a throw-away character argument")
Give everyone 32pt characters to start with and give all existing players free respecs to upgrade to them.
Probably others I haven't thought of.


My best guess is that they are trying to strike a balance between attracting new players and keeping the existing customers happy. They may also want to keep the 1750 favor goal in there as a carrot. Providing a way to upgrade the character that reaches it would be a much more reasonable solution than the current system which effectively penalizes the character that actually attains it.

I have no issues with allowing 32pt builds to be bought from the store provided I have the same options. The arguments that Drow and Favored Soul are already there don't really apply. Unlocking Drow through favor or through the store make your Dwarven barbarian less powerful. Unlocking Favored Soul doesn't mean your Human Cleric could be powerful. They just give you more options for gameplay. Only unlocking 32pt builds automatically means that any non-drow character you have would be better if you rerolled them. That kind of reward has never really made sense.

Of course, buying or unlocking 32pt characters won't make some people any less of a gimp. A perfectly built character will all the equipment will still be useless in the hands of an idiot.

Banner
09-24-2009, 04:23 AM
Turbine has already said they have no intention of making 32pt builds purchasable.

How is it you have no time to play the game to get the favor needed?

Are you playing the game at all? If yes, then you have the time it's just up to you whether or not you want to put in the effort.

I consider Turbine's policy regarding 32 point builds to be "unfair", despite posts to the contrary - such as the above.

A 28 point build character is inherently disadvantaged relative to a 32 point character - whether or not the term "gimped" is used (the term is very appropriate, imo). Statements to the effect that a 28-point character is not "gimped" are either nonsense or arguments over terminology.

Asking a player to either "live with" a 28-point character or "earn" points or "favor" prior to creating a "real" character is absurd.

It is quite reasonable to reward long-term customers in some financial manner (e.g., giving them advantages that new customers must pay $ for).

However, the current policy is extremely ill conceived.

I have no interest in spending time on a "throw away" character, so that I can create my "real" one.

Suppose I have only an hour or two to play per week.

It is as if Turbine went out of their way to implement a policy turning that hour or two into work, rather than fun.

I could spend weeks or months "earning" the "right" to create my "real" character (any enjoyment of the task greatly minimized by my knowledge that I am playing a "throw away" character).

Once I finally created my "real" character, my enjoyment of playing him would be diminished by my foreknowledge of dungeon content (acquired during "fore play", prior to creation of the real character).

The joy and fun of encountering the unknown with a character I am "into" (who in a sense, "is me") is eliminated.

Even were I able to play only an hour or two per week, such time could be very enjoyable were I to have a sense of progress and adventure. It's fun acquiring a new spell or ability, but much less doing so with a character having an NPC "feel" - worse, an NPC that will disappear from play.

The issue is exacerbated for me by the fact that I really like to take time to "smell the roses". I am not into power-gaming. I am certainly not into running through a dungeon as quickly as possible to gain XP. I also enjoy soloing and duoing. This play style would further increase the time needed before "real" play could begin. And how much fun would it be to "smell the roses" with a disposable character? Or to power-play the disposable character, further intensifying the "task like" feel of earning "favor" - due to utilizing a play-style that I dislike.

The policy is so unfair and ill-considered that I have lost interest in DnD online -without even finishing the character creation process (and despite my yearning for a good MMORPG). I was unable to enjoy creating a character, knowing that he would be gimped and "throw away". Never before had I experienced lack of enthusiasm during character creation.

The policy is supported by people who A) have lots of time on their hands and/or have already "earned" the ability to create 32-point builds and B) have no interest in fairness - only in what benefits them (please - refrain from babbling about having "earned" the right to create non-gimped characters).

I consider myself ripped-off**. I would not have thought that such an absurd policy would even be considered by any company - or tolerated by customers (other than young kids).

I intend to steer clear of anything with the Turbine label.


** I spent $24 on optional features prior to creating my first character - then learned of this ridiculous policy minutes later.

Delt
09-24-2009, 05:00 AM
I consider myself ripped-off**. I would not have thought that such an absurd policy would even be considered by any company - or tolerated by customers (other than young kids).

I intend to steer clear of anything with the Turbine label.


** I spent $24 on optional features prior to creating my first character - then learned of this ridiculous policy minutes later.

I laugh a little when I read things like this. 28pt builds aren't gimped and Drow (easily unlockable) are essentially a 32pt race.

When 1750 favor is reached, the NEW player recieves a +2 tome of their choice...chances are until they have a full stable of characters, that's a pretty rad gift (and assuming they pop it on their primary stat, it is worth more than 4 creation points). In the very, VERY long view, the 28 pt build may be off +1 in a primary stat at end game max (after +4 tomes, exceptional stat items, APs, etc). Maybe...they might be at an even number anyway.

Hearing new players stress about that single point discrepency that is likely YEARS away before they even start playing is funny to me...and I'm reminded that these players really don't understand the reality...they just get confused and see a disadvantage they don't understand and can't buy their way past.

Here's the deal...there are some advanced builds that basically require 32pt builds (stat intensive ones that require certain feats). New players shouldn't be trying these anyway, as they generally require +2 tomes and high end gear anyway. Nonetheless, Drow are statistically equivilent to 32pt builds....so if you want to try these advanced builds or you are simply phobic of 28pt builds, spend a few hours unlocking drow (or use the easy button and buy em). Problem solved - you can still earn 1750 on your drow and get a tome.

Drow aren't gimped (neither are 28pt builds, but whatever).

vainangel
09-24-2009, 05:34 AM
Since you can buy most everything else, I think leaving 32pts as something you have to earn is fine.
I just made a 28pt build on Cannith, Ranger - Arcane Archer- twf as back up. He out does most everyone in his level range and plays better than the Drow I worked to 400 favor to unlock.

Now once I get to lvl 10 on that character I should either be close to or have 1750 favor. If you are F2P this might be hard to do. I get that. However it does appear that it is a tool to get people to unlock or buy adventure packs to get the favor for a 32pt build.

Seems very logical to me.
I still use my original 28pt builds on Khyber and they are great characters. I will cite a slight damage boost on the 32pt build but the right gear could comp for that.

Stop cryin, play the game, put in some time and have fun. When you unlock those 32pt builds you will have a sense of achievement! Then you can use that 32pt build to get to 2500 favor like I did to unlock FvS.

Mistinarperadnacles
09-24-2009, 05:54 AM
This applies to most of the "I want 32pt now! Or I'll quit*/cry*/have to play the game*/be a pariah* (* delete as applicable)


I consider Turbine's policy regarding 32 point builds to be "unfair", despite posts to the contrary - such as the above.

A 28 point build character is inherently disadvantaged relative to a 32 point character - whether or not the term "gimped" is used (the term is very appropriate, imo). Statements to the effect that a 28-point character is not "gimped" are either nonsense or arguments over terminology.

Why do you feel "gimped?" My 28 point characters have always kicked just as much butt as 32 point ones.


Asking a player to either "live with" a 28-point character or "earn" points or "favor" prior to creating a "real" character is absurd.

It is quite reasonable to reward long-term customers in some financial manner (e.g., giving them advantages that new customers must pay $ for).

I have no interest in spending time on a "throw away" character, so that I can create my "real" one.

You don't "live" with them. You enjoy playing them as much as the any other character. They get the same build options, the same loot, the same quests. There's nothing "throwaway" about them.


Suppose I have only an hour or two to play per week.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you do play 1 hour a week, in all honesty, Turbine doesn't care whether the game is tailored to make your specific situation better. Yes, it would be nice for you, but players on this amount of short time are going to have so many issues compared to 20 hour a week players that the whole game would have to be very different.


It is as if Turbine went out of their way to implement a policy turning that hour or two into work, rather than fun.

I could spend weeks or months "earning" the "right" to create my "real" character (any enjoyment of the task greatly minimized by my knowledge that I am playing a "throw away" character).

Once I finally created my "real" character, my enjoyment of playing him would be diminished by my foreknowledge of dungeon content (acquired during "fore play", prior to creation of the real character).

The joy and fun of encountering the unknown with a character I am "into" (who in a sense, "is me") is eliminated.

Even were I able to play only an hour or two per week, such time could be very enjoyable were I to have a sense of progress and adventure. It's fun acquiring a new spell or ability, but much less doing so with a character having an NPC "feel" - worse, an NPC that will disappear from play.

So why not play your character and have this fun? Oh wait... you didn't even try:


The policy is so unfair and ill-considered that I have lost interest in DnD online -without even finishing the character creation process (and despite my yearning for a good MMORPG).




It is supported by people who A) have lots of time on their hands and/or have already "earned" the ability to create 32-point builds and B) have no interest in fairness - only in what benefits them (please - refrain from babbling about having "earned" the right to create non-gimped characters).

Partly true, addressed later on, incorrect motivation.


I consider myself ripped-off**. I would not have thought that such an absurd policy would even be considered by any company - or tolerated by customers (other than young kids).

I intend to steer clear of anything with the Turbine label.

** I spent $24 on optional features prior to creating my first character - then learned of this ridiculous policy minutes later.

Um... I wouldn't waste any money on getting so worked up about what is so wrongly perceived by so many to be such a big deal. If you've spent money on it, aren't you at least going to try?




Right then... what's this all about?

Well, seems to me that a whole host of new players (and server switching veterans) have got in a bunch over the reward you get for acheiving 1750 favour, namely 4 extra build points at character creation.

Why is this? It's because people are erroneously believing that without them, their characters are so vastly inferior as to be only fit for the scrap pile. This is very, very wrong, and here's why:

(This requires some understanding of D&D character building, which I realise new players used to other games might not have.)

4 points at character creation IS NOT 4 stat points. Costs to increase stats increase as the stat gets higher. To take a stat from your base 8 up to 14 costs 1 creation point per stat point. From 14-16 costs 2 and 17-18 costs 3.

This means that the 4 points you get aren't as valuable as you might have thought. They are useful, no doubt about it, but don't provide any earth shattering magic uberness on their own.

Advanced builds found on the forums such as deep multiclasses metagamed to the minutest tolerance are often very stat intensive and require every smidge of a +1 they can get. These builds also require in depth knowledge of DDO and should not be the goal of new players anyway. They also often require multiple +2/+3 and even +4 tomes.

So let's look at some specific examples of belief vs. reality:


My character Fighter McFightypants doesn't have as much damage*/hit points*/AC*

Ok. With a 28 point build, you'll have enough to reach 18 STR 14 DEX 14 CON. This means you'll have exactly the same to hit and damage potential as any other fighter. The reason you see veteran characters ripping through stuff isn't that they have more points, its that they have knowledge and 3 years worth of uber equipment. If you're not hitting on 2+ its because you built it wrong in the first place and no amount of extra creation points will help. You CANNOT exceed the MAX stat with any amount of extra creation points, so you can't be "better."

Hitpoints wise, yes I'll concede you would have less. A whole 1 hit point per level less. 20 hit points at level 20 does not make any realistic difference. It just plain doesn't. Besides there are other build and gear options that will address this: Draconic vitality from maxing out Argonnessen favour, or Toughness feats, or toughness enhancements, or Minos Legens, or Greensteel. You're really never going to experience being "gimpily squishy."

Yes, this one time, at devil camp, I nearly wiped and was left on 1 hit point and heroically soloed the raid and won the internet and girls wanted me.

He'll still have the max DEX bonus for plate armour (and even Armour Mastery with common +DEX items,) and your AC won't match veteran levels ever anyway. Godly AC is 80+ and it is not possible for fighters in armour to hit this. Sorry. Useful AC is 65+ and this is just as achievable with a 14 DEX as it is with a 16 and that elusive +1.

But wait! That's only 3 stats! This is true. In absolute honesty, those spent 4 points taking a dump stat from 8 to 12 won't get you considered uber by 3 year veterans. What could you get? CHA could get an extra 2 points in skills like Haggle for a whopping 0.5% increase in the prices you can sell stuff for. Or 2 ranks of UMD (I heard UMD is teh uber) which won't matter as you can't ever buy enough ranks of it to matter for things like Heal scrolls. UMD20 items like bypassing race requirements is available to you anyway. +2 Intimidate doesn't help either. If you're using Intim, you're maxing it out as a class skill and finding a +15 item and taking enhancements and having Greater Heroism, which short version, means you'll hit a high enough total anyway.

An extra shot of Intelligence means extra skill points each level. Now this is considered by many a biggie. Just check the price of unbound +2 INT tomes. Does it make you "gimped?" Nope. No. Not.

Pretty much all classes follow the same pattern. Your primary stat(s) won't be affected as you can't exceed MAX and your supplementary stats really aren't inferior.

Where this becomes an issue is where people believe they can build a 100 AC monk/rogue with 40 STR and 27 attacks per round like those uber templates in the build threads. Well, here's the newsflash for new people: Those builds REQUIRE very specific Raid Loot and a swathe of +3 Tomes, but you have those in the bank already, don't you?

So there you have it. 28pt builds are not throwaway. Ever.

I understand people want it. I can even see it being added to the store (it hasn't because it would require the respec/upgrade mechanic which they can't get to work yet.) I understand some long time VIPs don't want the rewards they've worked for being handed freely to anyone with enough credit, but to not play or quit over a false belief that you won't have a viable character, especially if you are a casual player, is the very essence of stupid.

I personally think that some things should be the preserve of the long time supporters that have plowed 15 bucks a month into this for years and not everyone should get everything from their credit card. But I'm not an elitist and I for one welcome our new free players and hope that now they can see that while reaching 1750 favour is nice, its far from essential.

Play, enjoy, rejoice.

Letrii
09-24-2009, 06:02 AM
It doesn't matter if it is gimped or not. The issue is one of perceptions and no amount of trying to explain how 28 is just as good as 32 will matter. There is no reason to argue against it either. It boils down to I had to do it so you should too or epeen.

marshm1972
09-24-2009, 06:21 AM
People that say that 28 points dont gimp a character, for some classes thats true. But for MAD classes like the Paladin the extra 4 points can make a huge difference. Any 28 pt character will be weaker than a 32 pt, thats a FACT.

I also came from Europe DDO, it took me 4 months of regular play to get the 1750 favor, I am not looking forward to doing it again. The easiest way to get was to zerg quests and I hate zerging. If I had the option, yes I would buy the 32pt unlock. I did it once, I didnt enjoy it, I dont want to wait 4 months (more because I have less free time than before) just to build the character I want to.

And whats the big deal? If you want to continue grinding for favor nobody is stopping you, and as someone pointed out you still get the +2 tome so its not like you are ruining anything. DDO is a product of a business, its goal is to make money. If customers get bored they unsubscribe. Grinding for quests to get favor just so players can play the way they want to is a surefire way to LOSE players. And lets face it, DDO didnt go F2P because they had a 10 Million subscribers to draw income from. So driving away players from a free game is a poor way to make money.

Gum
09-24-2009, 06:47 AM
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you do play 1 hour a week, in all honesty, Turbine doesn't care whether the game is tailored to make your specific situation better. Yes, it would be nice for you, but players on this amount of short time are going to have so many issues compared to 20 hour a week players that the whole game would have to be very different.


IMO, you shouldn't speak for Turbine here. Of course they care about their players input, even if that player only plays one hour a week. It's still a customer, and it's a viewpoint that makes up part of the whole.

Quanefel
09-24-2009, 07:16 AM
I consider Turbine's policy regarding 32 point builds to be "unfair", despite posts to the contrary - such as the above.

A 28 point build character is inherently disadvantaged relative to a 32 point character - whether or not the term "gimped" is used (the term is very appropriate, imo). Statements to the effect that a 28-point character is not "gimped" are either nonsense or arguments over terminology.

Asking a player to either "live with" a 28-point character or "earn" points or "favor" prior to creating a "real" character is absurd.

It is quite reasonable to reward long-term customers in some financial manner (e.g., giving them advantages that new customers must pay $ for).

However, the current policy is extremely ill conceived.

I have no interest in spending time on a "throw away" character, so that I can create my "real" one.

Suppose I have only an hour or two to play per week.

It is as if Turbine went out of their way to implement a policy turning that hour or two into work, rather than fun.

I could spend weeks or months "earning" the "right" to create my "real" character (any enjoyment of the task greatly minimized by my knowledge that I am playing a "throw away" character).

Once I finally created my "real" character, my enjoyment of playing him would be diminished by my foreknowledge of dungeon content (acquired during "fore play", prior to creation of the real character).

The joy and fun of encountering the unknown with a character I am "into" (who in a sense, "is me") is eliminated.

Even were I able to play only an hour or two per week, such time could be very enjoyable were I to have a sense of progress and adventure. It's fun acquiring a new spell or ability, but much less doing so with a character having an NPC "feel" - worse, an NPC that will disappear from play.

The issue is exacerbated for me by the fact that I really like to take time to "smell the roses". I am not into power-gaming. I am certainly not into running through a dungeon as quickly as possible to gain XP. I also enjoy soloing and duoing. This play style would further increase the time needed before "real" play could begin. And how much fun would it be to "smell the roses" with a disposable character? Or to power-play the disposable character, further intensifying the "task like" feel of earning "favor" - due to utilizing a play-style that I dislike.

The policy is so unfair and ill-considered that I have lost interest in DnD online -without even finishing the character creation process (and despite my yearning for a good MMORPG). I was unable to enjoy creating a character, knowing that he would be gimped and "throw away". Never before had I experienced lack of enthusiasm during character creation.

The policy is supported by people who A) have lots of time on their hands and/or have already "earned" the ability to create 32-point builds and B) have no interest in fairness - only in what benefits them (please - refrain from babbling about having "earned" the right to create non-gimped characters).

I consider myself ripped-off**. I would not have thought that such an absurd policy would even be considered by any company - or tolerated by customers (other than young kids).

I intend to steer clear of anything with the Turbine label.


** I spent $24 on optional features prior to creating my first character - then learned of this ridiculous policy minutes later.

You seem to contradict yourself on this issue. How can you suggest you are here to "smell the roses" and that you are not here for power-gaming yet advocate a desire to bypass the process of aquiring 32 point build to suit your personal needs? Needs that are counter to just "smelling the roses".

If your desire is really to smell the roses then reaching that prize of 32 point builds from the reward based system would smell sweet to you once gained. Yet, you wish for the chance to buy it outright, correct?

You also seem confused here on this "ridiculous policy" as you described. It is not a policy, it is a reward based favor system. They layed out a path to reach a goal, at the end of reaching that goal a player is rewarded for his efforts. How is being rewarded for reaching a goal unfair? Or are you really suggesting it is unfair to you because you want the reward but not be bothered with the path to reach that goal? It is also not babbling in regards to those who, yes, earned the "privilege" of making 32 point builds. A "right"? No, it is not a right.

If you personally feel ripped off, you really have only yourself to blame. No one forced you to spend any money on anything. You set your expectations much to high and on unrealistic terms in my opinion.

Mistinarperadnacles
09-24-2009, 07:52 AM
IMO, you shouldn't speak for Turbine here. Of course they care about their players input, even if that player only plays one hour a week. It's still a customer, and it's a viewpoint that makes up part of the whole.

I meant that to indicate that while indeed Turbine should care about all their players and the feedback they get, those that play 1 hour a week are a very small group and Turbine cannot possibly cater to every minority desire. The player would also have much bigger issues to worry about, such as quests that take longer than their whole weekly game time and the huge disparity in their fellow gamers levelling speed and loot aquisition. They can't care about pleasing every individual player on a tailored basis as this would not be possible. Perhaps "can't be concerned with" would be better wording than "don't care about."

Not, as you took it to mean, that they don't care about input.

Crystalizer
09-24-2009, 08:11 AM
drow is easy to unlock and is almost a 32pts build, depends on the build you choose but well about points drows are quite good. if you consider that accessing 32pts builds is one of the long term rewards you can have in game, its probably better to not be able to buy it at the shop. and dont forget that buying 32pts builds would open 32pts builds on all servers, which represents a huge amount of playtime.

Avonwey
09-24-2009, 08:16 AM
Why do you feel "gimped?" My 28 point characters have always kicked just as much butt as 32 point ones.

The reality is that your 28 point characters would kick MORE butt if they were 32 point ones. 32 > 28

RazorrX
09-24-2009, 08:20 AM
From my view:

The more money DDO makes Turbine the more they will invest back into DDO. Classes, Races, content. More for us to do.

I have seen new players leave because of the misconception that 32pts are so much better than 28. That is not a good thing. We need more players. We need more money generated so that I can have more races, classes and content. I want my Shifters, Half Orcs, Half Elves, (not gnomes though, they are creepy. If I were a gnome I would tell everyone I was a halfling).

So sure, put 32pt builds for sale. 1750 favor also gets you a +2 tome, so you still get that.

IMO they should put +1 tome as 400 favor reward, +2 for 1750 and +3 for 2500 or they could offer some sweet end reward system for it with tomes as one option, maybe small, medium and large crafting components, etc. That makes favor WELL worth farming, and still allows new players to get 32pts for a nice fee.

Mistinarperadnacles
09-24-2009, 08:28 AM
The reality is that your 28 point characters would kick MORE butt if they were 32 point ones. 32 > 28

Meh.

So they're +1 worse off. Big wow. Well, I guess not seeing as I could make them a +1 exceptional item my 32 point ones don't have, or go get an Abbot Trinket for that +1 or a host of other ways that their performance is so close as to not matter.

But yeah... if there was supposed to be a: ;) in there, yes.

This debate has cropped up ever since the favour reward appeared and people still believe that the 4 points makes such a HUGE difference as to render all others obsolete. I'm just explaining that isn't so.

Banner
09-24-2009, 08:36 AM
I laugh a little when I read things like this. 28pt builds aren't gimped and Drow (easily unlockable) are essentially a 32pt race.
.

And I thought it was a jackass heehawing. :)

Are 28 point builds disadvantaged relative to 32 point builds? If so, I'd call that gimped (perhaps you prefer to think of 32 point builds as superior, rather than 28 point builds as inferior, but that's simply semantics).

If 32 point Drow builds are disallowed, then you have a point regarding Drow. If 32 point Drow builds are permitted, you seem to have no point - whatever race is selected, a 32 point build still trumps a 28 point build.

Regarding tomes - I am going to make some assumptions. First, that a +2 tome allows one to permanently increase an attribute by 2 (apparently of the player's choice in the case of the "free" tome). Second, that a 4 point build differential does not necessarily translate to 4 points of total attribute difference (I am guessing that increasing an attribute is more expensive the higher it is).

Questions:

1) Is being given the "free" +2 tome you mentioned simply a matter of convenience? In other words, could one achieve the same result by finding such a tome via game play? [So that, ultimately, being given the "free" tome does not result in superior attributes to what is obtainable via play.] I don't know anything about tome limitations, availability, etc - so I can't judge the value of the "free" +2 tome. [I have no problem STARTING OUT weaker due to not having "earned" something. I have a problem with ultimate potential being lower.]

2) I reactivated an old account that I originally opened when DDO first became available (and which I played for several months). As far as I know, I have no "favor" points (are those points on per server or a per account basis? how does one check for them?). Does this mean that I would be unable to collect a "free" +2 tome (since I am not considered "new")? I had thought that there was an advantage to having a "premium" account, and therefore reactivated an old account (and spent money on it), rather than using a new account. I would FAR rather have received a +2 tome than to be given extra "free" slots. Sure, I could create another account, but I just spent money on the old one (although I suppose I could simply "eat" the $24 bucks, not a big deal).

Ultimately, the bottom line question is whether a 28 point build character will have essentially the same ultimate potential as a 32 point build character. If this is the case, then my earlier comments were way off the mark and I will play.

enochiancub
09-24-2009, 08:46 AM
As long as their money gets the devs to give us more content, races, classes and everything else we've been promised/asked for the past few years, I say let them have their instant gratification. Less whining, more money for turbine to create our game.

If they are so intent on arguing that their 28pter is worthless and it's causing them so much real life agony it's not worth arguing with them over. Especially if their false belief makes them leave the game. This is not worth losing potential cash cows over. It's actually a blessing in disguise. To me this shows that people are willing to toss money at imagined burdens. Good, more money for turbine, more game for us.

miceelf88
09-24-2009, 09:07 AM
I think what a lot of people don't get is that the difference between 28 and 32 point builds is pretty minor. "kick more butt" isn't even a question.

When one reaches 1750, one unlocks 32 point builds and gets a free +2 tome to the attribute of one's choice. Now, the +2 tome is actually usually more of a bump to stats than the 4 point jump from 28 to 32. (if you put it onto a stat that started at 18 or 19, it would actually be the equivalent of a 6 point boost). If you got the +2 tome for a dump stat, well, that would be a little different, but most peole wouldn't do that.

how rare are such tomes? For the casual players, very rare indeed. My char is level 17 now, was capped at 16 for a long time, but haven't had a chance to play it since the mod. Been playing for several years. Multiple raids. (I think a total of 30 something times in the reaver, I have all the ingredients for shroud crafting, about a dozen or so trips through there, etc.). In that time, other than the +2 tome, I've pulled a +1 tome to a dump stat (was worth more to me to sell) and a +1 tome in a non-dump stat. So, it's pretty uncommon unless one spends a lot of time at the higher level content (which some players do, and those players will find tomes to be pretty common). So the free +2 tome doesn't mean your character is exactly equivalent to all the other characters (because a very small set of players will have a lot of tomes available to them). But it makes it equivalent to 95% at least of other characters and better than most 32 point builds whose players don't have tomes.

I think a big part of the problem is that the world has outgrown the 1750 favor reward and the +2 tome. At the time they did it, tomes were VERY rare. My vote would be that the 1750 favor reward would be unlocking 32 point builds in general AND/OR a free respec of the character up to 32 point build (I actually don't care much about unlocking 32 points for new characters, provided that characters can eventually be respecced up to 32 point. AND the additional bonus should be something that stacks with tomes. (a +1 legendary bonus to a stat of one's choice, for example). That would make favor more valuable, in that it couldn't be eclipsed by tomes, and would also solve the "my character will never be as good as yours could ever be" problem.

I think the solutions are really:
1. A mechanism to respec current 28 point builds up to 32, unlockable at 1750 for that character only.
2. An additional reason to get to 1750 that is better/different than tomes which are still rare, but more common than they were when this came out. (my suggestion would be a stackable +1 bonus to a stat, but there could be a host of other ideas).

(I'd also prefer, if both of these are met that the "unlocking 32 point builds across the board" mechanism be done away with, and make it a reward per-character, not per-account. But this isn't a strong preference.

The big issue is #1. If this were available, there'd be NO issue with the unlocking thing, IMHO. Apparently, it's tough programming wise. But that's why we pay them the big bucks. I honestly believe that this is the best solution to keep both camps happy.

yes, they want to make money. But they also don't want us to burn out on the game very quickly, which is always the danger of taking stuff that people have to work for and make it buyable: 1. it runs the risk of making the game boring and not played for as long, because once you have everything, what's left to accomplish? and 2. it runs the risk of giving the perception that the way to have better characters is to spend money, which makes the "f2p" claims kind of a joke. Both of those things are long term threats to making money and have to be balanced with the short term gains of selling stuff in the store.

In the meantime, technically, yes, your 28 point build with the +2 tome is better off than a 32 point without the tome, but not quite as good as the 32 poitn with the tome. And yes, tomes can be gotten in other ways. But it's quite rare, as a proportion of characters in the game.
there's also a threshold effect. When people say it doesn't really gimp your character, what they mean is that no one but you is ever likely to know, based on results, whether you have a 28 point or 32 point build. if you are a skilled player with a decent build (and with a decent group), you'll beat most dungeons most of the time. And if you are either unskilled or have a crappy build, you'll be much more than 4 points away from beating most dungeons most of the time.

In most cases, in DDO, the outcomes are binary. You either complete the quest and get the loot and xp, or you don't. having a solid build, but being a little better because you have a 32 point build is kind of like being a little more pregnant. Once you're past the threshold, more/less isn't much of an issue.

Thrudh
09-24-2009, 09:16 AM
I consider Turbine's policy regarding 32 point builds to be "unfair", despite posts to the contrary - such as the above.

A 28 point build character is inherently disadvantaged relative to a 32 point character - whether or not the term "gimped" is used (the term is very appropriate, imo). Statements to the effect that a 28-point character is not "gimped" are either nonsense or arguments over terminology.

Asking a player to either "live with" a 28-point character or "earn" points or "favor" prior to creating a "real" character is absurd.

It is quite reasonable to reward long-term customers in some financial manner (e.g., giving them advantages that new customers must pay $ for).

However, the current policy is extremely ill conceived.

I have no interest in spending time on a "throw away" character, so that I can create my "real" one.

Suppose I have only an hour or two to play per week.

It is as if Turbine went out of their way to implement a policy turning that hour or two into work, rather than fun.

I could spend weeks or months "earning" the "right" to create my "real" character (any enjoyment of the task greatly minimized by my knowledge that I am playing a "throw away" character).

Once I finally created my "real" character, my enjoyment of playing him would be diminished by my foreknowledge of dungeon content (acquired during "fore play", prior to creation of the real character).

The joy and fun of encountering the unknown with a character I am "into" (who in a sense, "is me") is eliminated.

Even were I able to play only an hour or two per week, such time could be very enjoyable were I to have a sense of progress and adventure. It's fun acquiring a new spell or ability, but much less doing so with a character having an NPC "feel" - worse, an NPC that will disappear from play.

The issue is exacerbated for me by the fact that I really like to take time to "smell the roses". I am not into power-gaming. I am certainly not into running through a dungeon as quickly as possible to gain XP. I also enjoy soloing and duoing. This play style would further increase the time needed before "real" play could begin. And how much fun would it be to "smell the roses" with a disposable character? Or to power-play the disposable character, further intensifying the "task like" feel of earning "favor" - due to utilizing a play-style that I dislike.

The policy is so unfair and ill-considered that I have lost interest in DnD online -without even finishing the character creation process (and despite my yearning for a good MMORPG). I was unable to enjoy creating a character, knowing that he would be gimped and "throw away". Never before had I experienced lack of enthusiasm during character creation.

The policy is supported by people who A) have lots of time on their hands and/or have already "earned" the ability to create 32-point builds and B) have no interest in fairness - only in what benefits them (please - refrain from babbling about having "earned" the right to create non-gimped characters).

I consider myself ripped-off**. I would not have thought that such an absurd policy would even be considered by any company - or tolerated by customers (other than young kids).

I intend to steer clear of anything with the Turbine label.


** I spent $24 on optional features prior to creating my first character - then learned of this ridiculous policy minutes later.

Although you make good points and I agree that Turbine made a bad decision with the 32-point character mechanic....

I just want to point out that a 28 point character is NOT a throw-away... It can be your "real" character... It was for all of us... Most of us vets still have our original 28 point characters... Mine is a dwarf cleric.

My wisdom is as high as any 32 point character. My spells hit just as hard, I heal just as well... I could not make him any better at casting or healing.

I have 20 less hit points than I could have... that's it.. Instead of 470 hps, I only have 450 hps... Or maybe I could have +1 to hit and damage. I carry a big axe and do plenty of damage. No problems hitting, so maybe instead of averaging 50 points of damage a hit, I could do 51...

If that 2% less damage would actually bother you as you played, then yes you shouldn't play this game (or any MMO). Each Mod changes the game play mechanics. A "perfect" character in Mod 4 will not be "perfect" in Mod 7.

All that said, I vote for Turbine to make 32 point characters available in the store, but know that a 28 point character is 99% as good as a 32 point character...

marshm1972
09-24-2009, 09:18 AM
At issue is what brings in revenue to Turbine. If they make money selling 32pt builds good for them. That means they can use those funds not to keep the game going, but to pay for all the future "goodies" they have planned. Member DDO doesnt have the fanbase of LOTRO, so they need to make the extra $$$ where they can.

Thrudh
09-24-2009, 09:27 AM
The reality is that your 28 point characters would kick MORE butt if they were 32 point ones. 32 > 28

That is not true....

Are you not reading the replies??

A 28 point character can have the same MAX primary stat as a 32 point character...

Two wizards, one 28-point, one 32-point... Both can start with 18 INT. Both get the same gear... The 28-point character's spells will land EXACTLY as often as the 32-point character... Kicking butt will be exactly the same.

You know what the 32-point character will have? Maybe +2 will save, or 20 more hps at end-game. These are nice, but barely noticable.

The place where 32-points matters is complicated multi-class builds... because then you may have 2-3 "primary" stats. New players shouldn't even try those builds until they've played the game for a while (and gotten close to 1750 favor!), because it's easy to make a mistake and gimp a complicated multi-class build...

WolfSpirit
09-24-2009, 09:36 AM
Why do people keep peddling this line? No one asking for 32pt builds to be buyable is asking for an 'easy' button. Grinding 1750 favor is not hard, its time consuming.
Time consuming & Obstacles = Goal

The goals in this game are varied: some people like to play the quests with other people and enjoy the experience; some like to solo the quests as a personal challenge; others like to raid at the end-game and build up lots of phat loot that gives them braggging right.

People brag about the stupidest things.

The problem with 32pt builds is that they are not really a goal, they are more like an obstacle. No one really brags about having 32pt builds. Even on cannith recently, when the first people got 32pt builds, it wasn't the fact that they could build new toons with 32pts that they were bragging about, it was more the fact that they were the first to get to that level of favor on the server.

I don't know of a goal worth Achieving that is not filled with Obstacles



I know its a long road to get 32pt builds. And when I didn't have it (I hate grinding out favor) I wished that there were some easier way to get it. It took me just over a year to get it because I dislike grinding so much. But once I did, I felt a sense of accomplishment and I would have it no other way. It doesn't matter how you color it, or how you justifiy it. Being able to buy something like this is pressing the easy button. It IS looking for an easier way to get the same benifit that everyone else has had to work for.


The place where 32-points matters is complicated multi-class builds... because then you may have 2-3 "primary" stats. New players shouldn't even try those builds until they've played the game for a while (and gotten close to 1750 favor!), because it's easy to make a mistake and gimp a complicated multi-class build...
-
Excellent Point!
And well thought out post, +1

Avonwey
09-24-2009, 09:40 AM
Two wizards, one 28-point, one 32-point... Both can start with 18 INT. Both get the same gear... The 28-point character's spells will land EXACTLY as often as the 32-point character... Kicking butt will be exactly the same.

You know what the 32-point character will have? Maybe +2 will save, or 20 more hps at end-game. These are nice, but barely noticable.

The place where 32-points matters is complicated multi-class builds... because then you may have 2-3 "primary" stats. New players shouldn't even try those builds until they've played the game for a while (and gotten close to 1750 favor!), because it's easy to make a mistake and gimp a complicated multi-class build...

If one character has +2 will save over an otherwise identical character, then the one with +2 will save will kick more butt. That's a fact, jack.

And given the choice between an 8 and 12 in my Barb's wisdom score, I would gladly take the 12 thank you. Who in their right mind would want to play a character with -2 will saves?

And to your point about "32 point builds are too sophisticated for new players" - well many veterans like me want to purchase 32 point builds, and I know where to allocate my points thanks.

WolfSpirit
09-24-2009, 09:58 AM
If one character has +2 will save over an otherwise identical character, then the one with +2 will save will kick more butt. That's a fact, jack..

Huh?
If you think that +2 will save is going to enable you to "Kick more butt"... I just don't know what to tell you. Your view of "Butt Kicking" is a bit off. That means that you are going to make a will save, when required, when rolling 2 points more on D20 than the other wiz. Hardly Significant. CERTAINLY not enough to argue the value of.
Is it desirable? Yes.
Significant?
I wouldn't say so.

Avonwey
09-24-2009, 10:11 AM
Huh?
If you think that +2 will save is going to enable you to "Kick more butt"... I just don't know what to tell you. Your view of "Butt Kicking" is a bit off. That means that you are going to make a will save, when required, when rolling 2 points more on D20 than the other wiz. Hardly Significant. CERTAINLY not enough to argue the value of.
Is it desirable? Yes.
Significant?
Hardly.

Couldn't disagree with you more. Just because YOU think its insignificant does not make it so. I know, we could test this by creating a stackable +2 will save item in the game as a quest reward, and see how many people rush to complete the quest. An awful lot I'd imagine.

miceelf88
09-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Huh?

I just don't know what to say.

It's the kind of fundamental thing that there's really no answer to.

Will saves are primary for wizzies. They're going to have better will saves than most other classes to begin with. And how often do wizzies make will saves? Fear, I guess? And if you're not a will primary class, you're going to want points in either con if it isn't max or str/dex, depending on whether you're finesse or str based.

I mean geez. It's like saying that 42 inch pecs will make you kick more butt as an accountant. I suppose I could come up with a creative story in which this kind of statement makes sense, but it's going to be an exercise in fiction.

I can relate to the perceived unfairness. And I agree that 1750 should allow a respec.

But this notion that 32 vs. 28 is more kick butt in any real world way beyond +20 hp at level 20, or +1 will save at 20 is just silly.

(BTW, a +2 to will save would mean bumping wis 4 points, which would mean putting all your points into wis and having started with a low wis. Why anyone would do this rather than put more points into con, as a wizzie, is beyond me. And the + to will saves item? not going to be nearly as popular as things that add directly to damage done, dc of spells, or for tanks and the like hp/ac).

moonprophet
09-24-2009, 11:04 AM
Hope there is NEVER a 32 point build in the shop. Some things should be earned. Not everything should be available for purchase.

WolfSpirit
09-24-2009, 11:08 AM
Couldn't disagree with you more. Just because YOU think its insignificant does not make it so. I know, we could test this by creating a stackable +2 will save item in the game as a quest reward, and see how many people rush to complete the quest. An awful lot I'd imagine.
Wouldn't be me, I can't imagine any slot on my character that I would change anything to make such an insignificant change would be worthwile.
But Its ok if you do, i do understand that you value it more than I.
-

And to your point about "32 point builds are too sophisticated for new players" - well many veterans like me want to purchase 32 point builds, and I know where to allocate my points thanks.
And though this may not apply to you directly, it carries weight for people who come into the game a week ago and wants to make a 6Pal6monk8cleric, and feels that with the SUPER 32Pt build available in the store its a viable build. You MUST see the point there yes?
I know its frustrating to get it done. I feel for you, I really do.

Avonwey
09-24-2009, 11:16 AM
Will saves are primary for wizzies. They're going to have better will saves than most other classes to begin with. And how often do wizzies make will saves? Fear, I guess? And if you're not a will primary class, you're going to want points in either con if it isn't max or str/dex, depending on whether you're finesse or str based.



Except I play a Barbarian.

moonprophet
09-24-2009, 11:20 AM
And though this may not apply to you directly, it carries weight for people who come into the game a week ago and wants to make a 6Pal6monk8cleric, and feels that with the SUPER 32Pt build available in the store its a viable build. You MUST see the point there yes?
I know its frustrating to get it done. I feel for you, I really do.

Good luck playing/building a viable 6pal6mopn8cleric in this game with only a week experience. The time it takes to unlock the 32 point build will give the player the game experieince necessary (maybe) to BEGIN looking at and playing a complex triple class build like this. And perhaps even enough experience to realize thatthis build is likely a trainwreck waiting to happen. Again, some things are better earned.

WolfSpirit
09-24-2009, 11:32 AM
Good luck playing/building a viable 6pal6mopn8cleric in this game with only a week experience. The time it takes to unlock the 32 point build will give the player the game experieince necessary (maybe) to BEGIN looking at and playing a complex triple class build like this. And perhaps even enough experience to realize thatthis build is likely a trainwreck waiting to happen. Again, some things are better earned.
Precisely. That, combined with the fact that you are from Upstate New York State wins you the Coveted +1 to your Rep! Which is significant in its insignificance!

miceelf88
09-24-2009, 11:38 AM
Yeah, I saw that. I was running with THrud's example.

But, really, you'd bump your barb's wis by 4 rather than his con or str by 2? All to get +2 to will saves? assuming you're bumping your wis from 8 to 12, that means you're bumping your save bonus from +5 to +7 (9 to 11 raged, and 11 to 13 vs. enchantments) at end game. You can get exactly the same effect for 3 AP (barbarian willoower, which I am sure by your logic is the most popular barb enhancement ever).

I guess it will add 10% to your likelihood of avoiding being held or feared (assuming no one's cast FOM on you in the case of hold-heavy mods, or remove fear on fear-heavy mods). Those are big assumptions. So, yes, if a 2/20 greater chance of avoiding something that can be avoided with proper pre makes you more kick a$$, then yes, I suppose that it would be kick a$$.

But I find it hard to believe that most barbarians look at their charcter sheets and say "damn it! If only I had a 12 wis, THEN I could kick some butt!!!"

Avonwey
09-24-2009, 11:46 AM
Actually, if I had 4 more points to invest I think I'd bump my intelligence to 12 so I get an extra 2 skill points each level and put them into spot. I hate that I can't see any monsters.

Mercules
09-24-2009, 12:20 PM
Couldn't disagree with you more. Just because YOU think its insignificant does not make it so. I know, we could test this by creating a stackable +2 will save item in the game as a quest reward, and see how many people rush to complete the quest. An awful lot I'd imagine.

Depends, what slot does that item take and what else does it offer? I'll bet most WIZARDS wouldn't be going after that item. :)

Gum
09-24-2009, 01:06 PM
I meant that to indicate that while indeed Turbine should care about all their players and the feedback they get, those that play 1 hour a week are a very small group and Turbine cannot possibly cater to every minority desire. The player would also have much bigger issues to worry about, such as quests that take longer than their whole weekly game time and the huge disparity in their fellow gamers levelling speed and loot aquisition. They can't care about pleasing every individual player on a tailored basis as this would not be possible. Perhaps "can't be concerned with" would be better wording than "don't care about."

Not, as you took it to mean, that they don't care about input.

Ah gotcha. No worries. Sorry for my misinterpretation.

Delt
09-24-2009, 01:12 PM
If 32 point Drow builds are disallowed, then you have a point regarding Drow. If 32 point Drow builds are permitted, you seem to have no point - whatever race is selected, a 32 point build still trumps a 28 point build.

Drow are drow, 1750 favor has zero effect on their stats. Your drow will have the same stat points as my drow. That clear enough?


Regarding tomes - I am going to make some assumptions. First, that a +2 tome allows one to permanently increase an attribute by 2 (apparently of the player's choice in the case of the "free" tome). Second, that a 4 point build differential does not necessarily translate to 4 points of total attribute difference (I am guessing that increasing an attribute is more expensive the higher it is).

Both assumptions are correct.


1) Is being given the "free" +2 tome you mentioned simply a matter of convenience?

Yes, convenience. You can receive them during the course of normal gameplay in higher level content and on 20th completions of raids (both random).


2) I reactivated an old account that I originally opened...

Let me state that I find it funny ("heehaaw!") that you aren't even vaguely aware of how the system works or what it is, yet you've seen fit to create a big rant about it, cry and quit. That seems pretty idiotic to me. That aside...

"Favor" is essentially an ingame Faction system. If you look under your quest tab, you will find a Patron section. Every quest is tied to a specific Patron. Completing a quest gains favor with the Patron. Those Patrons offer the player rewards at certain favor levels (ie: +10HP, bank & inventory slots, special merchants, etc). There is also a Total Favor. It is the total favor that unlocks Drow(400), 32pt builds and +2 tome (1750) and Favored Souls (2500).

Each quest offers favor. Elite grants the most favor. Lets say a quest is worth 8 points on normal, 12 on hard and 20 on elite. Running the quest 3 times, first normal, then hard, then elite will grant you 20 favor. If you run the quest on elite THREE times, the total favor is still only 20. Ie: only the highest applies per quest and it's not additive.


Ultimately, the bottom line question is whether a 28 point build character will have essentially the same ultimate potential as a 32 point build character. If this is the case, then my earlier comments were way off the mark and I will play.

No, you will always be those 4 creation points behind a 32 point build (unless you are a drow). In 3 years, when you are covered in +4 tomes and epic gear...maybe your max STR will be 35 instead of 36. Maybe. That's a big deal man, better quit now and avoid that whole hypothetical :rolleyes:

Understand the system and the game before you tear your hair out. Most peoples first few characters ends up such trainwrecks anyway, they are eventually muled/deleted. If it's really a big deal for people mentally -- unlock/buy drow as your first character. Problem solved.

Letrii
09-24-2009, 02:17 PM
If it is such a minor deal, why are y'all digging in your heels and refusing to budge?

miceelf88
09-24-2009, 02:43 PM
The 32/28 point disparity is not a big deal.

Removing one of the main motivators to pursue favor, potentially shortening the average playable half-life of the game for many potential users, while at the same time violating the ethos of the f2p general approach (that what you can buy in the store would be mainly conveniences, not things that materially change characters) is potentially a bigger deal. Particularly if they do so in response to what appear to be pretty gross misunderstandings about the actual disparity. And, if doing so in response to these misunderstandings further reinforces them, thus making those who REALLY want F2P more shunned than they sometimes already are.

The fix is to be able to upgrade the same character that got the 1750 favor. I believe/hope they're working on that.

Delt
09-24-2009, 02:54 PM
If it is such a minor deal, why are y'all digging in your heels and refusing to budge?

Because it is stupid in a lot of peoples opinion (including mine) to offer anything and everything via the store. Faction rewards are achieved by actually playing the damn game...if those are fair game for the store, they might as well stick crafting ingrediants, raid loot, +4 tomes and cleansing stones to the store and be done with it.

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 03:01 PM
The 32/28 point disparity is not a big deal.

Removing one of the main motivators to pursue favor, potentially shortening the average playable half-life of the game for many potential users, while at the same time violating the ethos of the f2p general approach (that what you can buy in the store would be mainly conveniences, not things that materially change characters) is potentially a bigger deal. Particularly if they do so in response to what appear to be pretty gross misunderstandings about the actual disparity. And, if doing so in response to these misunderstandings further reinforces them, thus making those who REALLY want F2P more shunned than they sometimes already are.

The fix is to be able to upgrade the same character that got the 1750 favor. I believe/hope they're working on that.

I completely agree with you. Especially that the point disparity is not a big deal. What is a big deal is rerolling to take advantage of a favor reward in the first place. If it had been a bigger deal and had been even more favor then it might have influenced the way I play, who knows.

Really what I don't like is that Favor is tied into this to be such a big deal. If they didn't have an alternative by using TP to eanr FvS for instance I would not be able to play one until I concentrated on Favor again. What's the point of that? After months of waiting for new things to be introduced I would be required to "unlock" a new class? That wouldn't have been very cool. And the fact that Turbine finally gave me the TP they said they would I can finally roll a 32 point FvS on 2 servers. At least I can use TP to unlock FvS on all servers. IF I went for the favor I would have to earn it per server. That's even crazy. 32 point is fine that I have to re-earn the darn thing, although I think that's foolish too and it was highlighted by the fact you could pay to transfer a character and circumvent the favor requiremnts for that server.

Making it so that 28 points are upgradeable will certainly satisfy the complete-ist in me. But my paying my monthly gaming fee and earning my TP to unlock things I don't have time or desire to unlock can be made so that it's fair and fun. How about the little thing that someone who earns 1750 on 2 servers can earn enough points to unlock on a 3rd server.

Or is that unfair to those who've unlocked 1750 on 3 servers already?
I certainly draw the line at having to pay extra to play but some things need to be rethought. There is little reason that someone can earn 32 point in different ways from the way we had to.

And yes I create my 28 pointers on other servers and they work damn well even without any Twink Gear or Tomes. I even start my TWF with 17 Dex- I know 17 DEX!!!!

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 03:05 PM
Because it is stupid in a lot of peoples opinion (including mine) to offer anything and everything via the store. Faction rewards are achieved by actually playing the damn game...if those are fair game for the store, they might as well stick crafting ingrediants, raid loot, +4 tomes and cleansing stones to the store and be done with it.

If that's how y'all feel, that's how you feel.

I don't agree that 32 point and Drow had any relation to any other type of Favor reward. So I don't think the fact that we had to play to earn it the way we did still makes sense to apply.

And creating an alternative way to earn this thing does not mean that anything and everything will be offered by the store.

I suppose anything can happen. But thinking in extremes will make it hard to judge actual practical applications.

Aesop
09-24-2009, 03:32 PM
If that's how y'all feel, that's how you feel.

I don't agree that 32 point and Drow had any relation to any other type of Favor reward. So I don't think the fact that we had to play to earn it the way we did still makes sense to apply.

And creating an alternative way to earn this thing does not mean that anything and everything will be offered by the store.

I suppose anything can happen. But thinking in extremes will make it hard to judge actual practical applications.

/signed

Aesop

Delt
09-24-2009, 03:32 PM
And creating an alternative way to earn this thing does not mean that anything and everything will be offered by the store.

I suppose anything can happen. But thinking in extremes will make it hard to judge actual practical applications.

I'm not offering a slippery slope arguement - I'm saying the practice would be stupid on principal and alienate more players than it would please.

It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

Really, it's no different than SWG offer jedi for cash or WoW offering PVP rewards for cash. It takes away from the game and would justifiably **** off a lot of people...and why? To satisfy a few clueless noobs and some lazy casual vets? Not worth it.

miceelf88
09-24-2009, 03:35 PM
It seems most equivalent to Wow offering up death knights for cash.

(I'll also point out that the character that reaches the requisite level doesn't become a death knight AFAIK).

Aesop
09-24-2009, 03:39 PM
I'm not offering a slippery slope arguement - I'm saying the practice would be stupid on principal and alienate more players than it would please.

It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

Really, it's no different than SWG offer jedi for cash or WoW offering PVP rewards for cash. It takes away from the game and would justifiably **** off a lot of people...and why? To satisfy a few clueless noobs and some lazy casual vets? Not worth it.



Wow... you actually pushed it over the limit.

Tell you what you can play the characters on the other 2 servers that I'm on to get 1750 favor... then you can rebuild those characters all the way back up as 32 point builds.

Then you can grind away (something I hate doing because it bores the hell out of me) and get the Raid items.

Not a single person is suggesting that Raid gear be added to the Store. The fact that you go straight there is a classic ******** slippery slope arguement and you damn well know it. No One is taking your favor grind away they are asking for better options. So as the anti-purchase camp is fond of saying. Quit Crying

Aesop

zedorf
09-24-2009, 03:44 PM
DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).



I would respect your opinion if you were just as strongly opposing character respec. Wouldn't you just say people are too lazy to re-roll? What about the AP reset we already have? You were opposed that as well? Lazy darn gamers who just can't reroll?

Delt
09-24-2009, 03:52 PM
Wow... you actually pushed it over the limit.

Tell you what you can play the characters on the other 2 servers that I'm on to get 1750 favor... then you can rebuild those characters all the way back up as 32 point builds.

Then you can grind away (something I hate doing because it bores the hell out of me) and get the Raid items.

Not a single person is suggesting that Raid gear be added to the Store. The fact that you go straight there is a classic ******** slippery slope arguement and you damn well know it. No One is taking your favor grind away they are asking for better options. So as the anti-purchase camp is fond of saying. Quit Crying

Aesop

Pssst, hey noob vet. I am not saying they will, I am saying they might as well as it amounts to the same damn thing. The fact that I have to clarify that a second time speaks loads to your ability to comprehend.

Speaking of not comprehending, if you want to unlock 1750 on a different server, transfer an existing toon to that new server. Problem solved, assuming you've done it once, "founder".


I would respect your opinion if you were just as strongly opposing character respec. Wouldn't you just say people are too lazy to re-roll? What about the AP reset we already have? You opposed that as well? Lazy darn gamers who just can't reroll?

Why is that? Neither have anything to do with the other. Turbine has changed many things over the years, invalidating many build choices. We are long overdue for a respec option.

ahpook
09-24-2009, 03:52 PM
It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).



I would agree with this. Buying favor rewards in the DDO store is completely asinine.

I would also like to list as asinine the granting of account based rewards (such as drow, FvS, and 32 pt builds) to character based favor. Remove those items from the favor system and then you are free to sell them in the store. Problem solved for all.

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 04:00 PM
I'm not offering a slippery slope arguement - I'm saying the practice would be stupid on principal and alienate more players than it would please.

It's an ingame reward based on playing through game content and ranking up an ingame faction system. You might not like the 32pt build as a favor reward (it is essentially a stackable +1-4 tome for every new character), but that's a different arguement.

DDO as it exists isn't exactly chalked full of achievements or goals (Gear and favor is about all we got, combined with rolling new builds). Taking one of the few goals out and making it available for a quick cash grab is idiotic, dilutes the game and sets a bad precident to boot (there is your slippery slope arguement).

Really, it's no different than SWG offer jedi for cash or WoW offering PVP rewards for cash. It takes away from the game and would justifiably **** off a lot of people...and why? To satisfy a few clueless noobs and some lazy casual vets? Not worth it.

Okay you don't see that the argument "if they do this it will be the allowance of all this other stuff that can be bad" as being a "slippery slope" argument then let's ignore that.

So it isn't a matter of achievement then is it? I've learned the game the right way. I played my 28 pointers and got 1750 Favor. I've earned it and I've earned it again. But if I'm tired of earning it then I'm "a lazy vet".

Let me tell you what I think. I think making Drow a 400 Favor, 32 a 1750 Favor, and FvS 2500 Favor continuously is a stupid idea. It was implemented in a slapped on method because of when it was implemented and why it was implemented. It was created as a reason to play in it's time. It no longer has that function. Luckily it doesn't affect my game, so far I've had a great time. The store is such a non-issue to me because I don't play with any need for it.

But I can tell you I would have been super annoyed that the old promise of "Free Updates" had turned into 2500 Favor for FvS if they hadn't given an alternative with TPs.

And no, if they don't add raid gear to the store adding 32 points does not amount to the same damn thing. It amounts to a different thing that you have decided amounts to the same thing.

Delt
09-24-2009, 04:01 PM
I would agree with this. Buying favor rewards in the DDO store is completely asinine.

I would also like to list as asinine the granting of account based rewards (such as drow, FvS, and 32 pt builds) to character based favor. Remove those items from the favor system and then you are free to sell them in the store. Problem solved for all.

I'd agree with that...at least the 32point portion (I don't mind the drow/FVS unlocks - but it would be nice to have more npc dialog or story to actually justify it in game). The whole 32 point system is dumb and they added it because DDO was short content aside from rolling new toons.

It is what it is though, seems unlikely to change.

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 04:01 PM
I would agree with this. Buying favor rewards in the DDO store is completely asinine.

I would also like to list as asinine the granting of account based rewards (such as drow, FvS, and 32 pt builds) to character based favor. Remove those items from the favor system and then you are free to sell them in the store. Problem solved for all.

/Signed

Cyr
09-24-2009, 04:04 PM
Pssst, hey noob vet. I am not saying they will, I am saying they might as well as it amounts to the same damn thing. The fact that I have to clarify that a second time speaks loads to your ability to comprehend.

Speaking of not comprehending, if you want to unlock 1750 on a different server, transfer an existing toon to that new server. Problem solved, assuming you've done it once, "founder".



Why is that? Neither have anything to do with the other. Turbine has changed many things over the years, invalidating many build choices. We are long overdue for a respec option.

Why in the world would advocating paying money to transfer an existing toon to another server make your argument stronger? It just sounds like another way of doing exactly what people are asking for...buying 32 point builds in the store. I've only deleted about a half dozen 1750+ favor toons and have another eight on the same server. Yet, having to transfer a toon for money as a work around seems pretty moronic to me when they can just put them up in the store in the first place...make more money and no one gets hurt by it. Every vet could make VIP toons on their main server for a very long time now. You MIGHT have a few 28 point toons left over, but hopefully the full respec will allow you to update them to 32 point toons too. The 32 point build as part of favor was one of the worst design decisions made in this game (and that says a lot). New players have joined the game and quit once they realize their first favorite toon has NO possibility to be the best that they could be.

Delt
09-24-2009, 04:05 PM
And no, if they don't add raid gear to the store adding 32 points does not amount to the same damn thing. It amounts to a different thing that you have decided amounts to the same thing.

I disagree with you. Just because you want to believe it's different doesn't mean it is (see what I did there?). I've run titan 200+ times all counted. You add up the time investment, it's more significant than running favor.

I'm going to get the chattering ring eventually anyway, I've gotten it before, why force me to run through the hoops? Simply add it to the store -- me buying it doesn't affect your game, now does it?

....:rolleyes:


Why in the world would advocating paying money to transfer an existing toon to another server make your argument stronger? It just sounds like another way of doing exactly what people are asking for...buying 32 point builds in the store.

Because you unlocked it. You played the game and you earned your reward. I'd argue that yes, having that particular workaround is silly, but it exists. A better option would be if 1750 unlocked 32pt builds on all servers. An even better option would be if the 32pt build never existed. Neither of those are currently the case, so the only question remains whether I want those rewards offered on the store. I say no, for reasons I already laid out.

krud
09-24-2009, 04:09 PM
All other rewards benefit the specific character, with the exception of the favor unlocks. These do nothing for the character. If 28/32 difference is so insignificant, then why is it so hard to make it available for purchase? Favored soul is 2500 for cryin' out loud. There is no big stink over FvS being available in the store. Why is that? The favor grind for that is MUCH harder than 1750. Why is the 32pt build held so high on a pedestal if it is so insignificant? *hint*- because maybe it really does matter. (hardly anybody grinds for a reward that's insignificant)

There have been many good suggestions in the past on how to make 32pt buys work in the store, and rework the favor system to be more character specific.

-only make one 32pt character slot purchaseable at a time.
-keep 1750 to unlock all slots.
-free character respec at 1750
-+3 tome.

if the reward at 1750 were even better for the specific charcater, it should make 1750 even sweeter, and would relegate the "insignificant" 32pt reward to a more appropriate place.

rezo
09-24-2009, 04:20 PM
God talk about so lazy people, " I must have a 32pt. build because I can't spend time to run favor." or " I want the e-z button because Turbine made it so to buy drow and FVS." Ok, can we just paid Turbine to get XP, because " I'm to lazy to run a play a toon and I want to run high quest once in awhile." God stop cry about "it to much work" and start playing the game. My high toon only have 1545 favor and I've been play for 3 years now I think. I'm not crying about not having 32pt. build so, shut up and play the game will you.

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 04:27 PM
I disagree with you. Just because you want to believe it's different doesn't mean it is (see what I did there?). I've run titan 200+ times all counted. You add up the time investment, it's more significant than running favor.

I'm going to get the chattering ring eventually anyway, I've gotten it before, why force me to run through the hoops? Simply add it to the store -- me buying it doesn't affect your game, now does it?

....:rolleyes:

I disagree because of the very nature of the Favor unlock. It just doesn't make sense. And your Titan runs, so what? I got my chattering ring, why I would care when you get yours is beyond me. And our characters can both benefit by that re-running the quest. The character that gets the first 1750 can't benefit from it.
I don't know how you can equate one to the other. I guess that's why we disagree.


Because you unlocked it. You played the game and you earned your reward. I'd argue that yes, having that particular workaround is silly, but it exists. A better option would be if 1750 unlocked 32pt builds on all servers. An even better option would be if the 32pt build never existed. Neither of those are currently the case, so the only question remains whether I want those rewards offered on the store. I say no, for reasons I already laid out.


Fair enough. And I say yes, for reasons I laid out. I have no problem with you having your way, like it currently is, but I wish you hinged on something more then "we need to keep our old accomplishments intact or they will be for naught" or "if they change this thing then it will lead to other changed and then everything is doomed".

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 04:28 PM
God talk about so lazy people, " I must have a 32pt. build because I can't spend time to run favor." or " I want the e-z button because Turbine made it so to buy drow and FVS." Ok, can we just paid Turbine to get XP, because " I'm to lazy to run a play a toon and I want to run high quest once in awhile." God stop cry about "it to much work" and start playing the game. My high toon only have 1545 favor and I've been play for 3 years now I think. I'm not crying about not having 32pt. build so, shut up and play the game will you.

Pfft I have 1750 on two servers. Slacker.
And I started 6 months after you.

Delt
09-24-2009, 04:31 PM
I have no problem with you having your way, like it currently is, but I wish you hinged on something more then "we need to keep our old accomplishments intact or they will be for naught" or "if they change this thing then it will lead to other changed and then everything is doomed".

That isn't my arguement and putting quotes around your simplified bastardization either makes you dumb or rude. Pick one.

Should I return the favor and boil down your arguement to "frankly, they should have everything available in the store so people can buy their specced out toons and we can all stare at My DDO pages instead of playing"?

No, because my ability to defend my stances and consider other viewpoints doesn't rely on cowardly and low brow tactics.

krud
09-24-2009, 04:33 PM
God talk about so lazy people, " I must have a 32pt. build because I can't spend time to run favor." or " I want the e-z button because Turbine made it so to buy drow and FVS." Ok, can we just paid Turbine to get XP, because " I'm to lazy to run a play a toon and I want to run high quest once in awhile." God stop cry about "it to much work" and start playing the game. My high toon only have 1545 favor and I've been play for 3 years now I think. I'm not crying about not having 32pt. build so, shut up and play the game will you.
I've done it 5 times, and even deleted a 32pt character who have reached 1750 favor.

Aesop
09-24-2009, 04:39 PM
Pssst, hey noob vet. I am not saying they will, I am saying they might as well as it amounts to the same damn thing. The fact that I have to clarify that a second time speaks loads to your ability to comprehend.

Speaking of not comprehending, if you want to unlock 1750 on a different server, transfer an existing toon to that new server. Problem solved, assuming you've done it once, "founder".



So instead of whining that they might do something like add raid loot you are saying that they might as well if they add something like 32 point biuilds.

And that second part is bloody hilarious...

Let me see... ok so Transfer a character to another server... which by the way costs money... so I see very little difference between one and the other short of saying that new players should be held down because that's where they belong...

also since you seem ignorant of this. Cannith doesn't accept transfers at this time.

Maybe someday it will... but right now it doesn't

Its a game. People come here to play and have fun. Most don't want to play for a couple of months just to play on even footing with the rest. If anything 32 point as a reward was a bad idea.

Aesop

Aesop
09-24-2009, 04:42 PM
That isn't my arguement and putting quotes around your simplified bastardization either makes you dumb or rude. Pick one.

Should I return the favor and boil down your arguement to "frankly, they should have everything available in the store so people can buy their specced out toons and we can all stare at My DDO pages instead of playing"?

No, because my ability to defend my stances and consider other viewpoints doesn't rely on cowardly and low brow tactics.

Bull

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 04:45 PM
That isn't my arguement and putting quotes around your simplified bastardization either makes you dumb or rude. Pick one.

Should I return the favor and boil down your arguement to "frankly, they should have everything available in the store so people can buy their specced out toons and we can all stare at My DDO pages instead of playing"?

No, because my ability to defend my stances and consider other viewpoints doesn't rely on cowardly and low brow tactics.

When then I'm sorry. But that's what your arguments sound like to me. I am trying to get your point.
I never played other MMO, I prefered faster on-line stuff like FPS.
I thought Everquest and Eve and WOW and stuff looked cool but was boring. Just the way it was to me.

So maybe you're talking about lessons learned from other MMO's. And as far as rudeness or dumb- well of course if you want to split hairs that's the way your posts have seemed to me. "Lazy vets" ring a bell?

Not the point. How can the argument that allowing this into the store will pave the way for other things to be purchased what most feel shouldn't be purchased be anything other then a slippery slope.

If that's not your argument and that rather a reward of this magnitude shouldn't be discarded because it's somehow necessary for the longevity of the game (once it was, but you're really stretching a point if you still want to argue that 1750 still serves it's purpose of giving something for people to do until more content and completed Character classes are introduced) then I really wish you wouldn't have muddied it up by including the slippery slope argument.

And basically your boiling down my argument is what I've been hearing from you. And that's my point. I don't believe that changing 1750 is touching the Holy Grail. The idea that I want that is in quotes is laughable. But that is what you basically keep saying when you equate my desire for a re-working of 1750/32 point build as a desire to make sure I or others can just buy their way to the top.

rezo
09-24-2009, 04:46 PM
Pfft I have 1750 on two servers. Slacker.
And I started 6 months after you.

I don't favor grind, I raid grind.... lol :D

32pts. builds aren't important to me....

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 04:52 PM
I don't favor grind, I raid grind.... lol :D

32pts. builds aren't important to me....

Good for you. I happened to get to 1750 before I cared about Raiding ;). I still Raid on my old 28 point or Drow.
Didn't care about it but I did set my goals on it when I realized I had a really cool build in mind, that I could not have done on 28 point. Couldn't have done it. Period.
I still have 28 points. Why are they 28 points? Because I can't earn the right to make them non-28 yet.
Hopefully respecs will change that.

Delt
09-24-2009, 04:54 PM
How can the argument that allowing this into the store will pave the way for other things to be purchased what most feel shouldn't be purchased be anything other then a slippery slope.

I'm not sure how many times I'd need to repeat this before you get it, but 3 times will have to be my limit. I said it amounts to the same thing, not that I expect one will lead to the other (aside from a 'might as well at that point' slant). Still don't grasp that I didn't say what you think I said? Well I can't help ya.




Let me see... ok so Transfer a character to another server... which by the way costs money... so I see very little difference between one and the other short of saying that new players should be held down because that's where they belong...

Aesop

I am well aware Cannith can't be done. You didn't specify that. That said, I find it beyond hilarious that you would be considering 28pt builds on a BRAND NEW server gimped. And god forbid the players that earn the favor there be rewarded for their efforts.

You know, maybe you all are right. I realize DDO lacks much in the way of achievements or goals. We don't have real pvp, we don't have real crafting, we don't have housing, etc. All we really have here is character building. DDO is a game after all, stuff should be fun. Perhaps we really should remove all the grind that hides behind creating and tweaking characters. 'Time investment = ingame advantage' is quite the antiquated concept after all. Very 90's.

A digital chatroom and my.ddo blogs -- that's the future. Hopefully I can tweet my newest hair color soon.

*hands everyone a cupcake and saunters off*

There, that's hyperbole and twisting arguements done right ;)

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 05:04 PM
I am well aware Cannith can't be done. You didn't specify that. That said, I find it beyond hilarious that you would be considering 28pt builds on a BRAND NEW server gimped. And god forbid the players that earn the favor there be rewarded for their efforts.

You know, maybe you all are right. I realize DDO lacks much in the way of achievements or goals. We don't have real pvp, we don't have real crafting, we don't have housing, etc. All we really have here is character building. DDO is a game after all, stuff should be fun. Perhaps we really should remove all the grind that hides behind creating and tweaking characters. 'Time investment = ingame advantage' is quite the antiquated concept after all. Very 90's.

A digital chatroom and my.ddo blogs -- that's the future.

*hands everyone a cupcake and saunters off*

;)

Okay so I get it. The 32 point is a pivotal thing in your mind and if it ever gets changed it will be catastrophic and will pave the way for removing all the ability to create and tweak characters.
Well you're part right. Keeping it as is will indeed make it impossible to tweak current characters, but it will allow us the ability to create better characters.

I'm just glad FvS doesn't follow the logic of 32 point and Drow. I would be very annoyed that I had to worry about getting 2500 Favor just to play a new Class.

Since I already got my 32 points on the servers I want to play on. And since I finally got the TP's "owed" to me (at least that's what my e-mail says- I'm gonna log-in and log out the game when i get home from work and that should allocate all my points - 3000 more TP - YAY I win!!!) I really don't have any vested interest in whether Turbine ever changes this policy.

I still think it's stupid to make people play 28 pointers to 1750 Favor. But with respecs on the possible horizon my last objections, to the way 1750 Favor is not applied to the character earning the favor, will hopefully be taken care of.

Delt
09-24-2009, 05:14 PM
Okay so I get it. The 32 point is a pivotal thing in your mind and if it ever gets changed it will be catastrophic and will pave the way for removing all the ability to create and tweak characters.

Nope. 3 strikes and you are out I guess. But hey, at least you didn't use quotes this time, so you are getting closer.

Here is your cheat sheet - feel free to study it later and see where you went wrong. Your post should have read like:


Okay so I get it. The 32 point is the equivilent to raid loot in your mind, as both require in game time and effort to achieve/earn. Turbine selling 32 pt builds would cheapen the overall game, as it invalidates what you view as one of the few goals available in a mainly PVE game like DDO. I disagree, but understand.

I understand you won't get it right away, but with hours of study, anything is possible. Keep reaching for the rainbow and all that jazz. Later. :rolleyes:

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm not sure how many times I'd need to repeat this before you get it, but 3 times will have to be my limit. I said it amounts to the same thing, not that I expect one will lead to the other (aside from a 'might as well at that point' slant). Still don't grasp that I didn't say what you think I said? Well I can't help ya.


Very well I guess I got caught up on your "might as well at that point" slant.
However since you always bring up extremes:


You know, maybe you all are right. I realize DDO lacks much in the way of achievements or goals. We don't have real pvp, we don't have real crafting, we don't have housing, etc. All we really have here is character building. DDO is a game after all, stuff should be fun. Perhaps we really should remove all the grind that hides behind creating and tweaking characters. 'Time investment = ingame advantage' is quite the antiquated concept after all. Very 90's.

You keep bringing in the concept that allowing 32 points will invalidate one of the few achievements and goals in the overall game. And this will annoy Vets and it "might as well" give away Green steel, Raid Items, and everything else, because it will be just as bad.

Is that fair to say?

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 05:17 PM
Nope. 3 strikes and you are out I guess. But hey, at least you didn't use quotes this time, so you are getting closer.

Here is your cheat sheet - feel free to study it later and see where you went wrong. Your post should have read like:



I understand you won't get it right away, but with hours of study, anything is possible. Keep reaching for the rainbow and all that jazz. Later. :rolleyes:

Sure Delt. Whatever you say. Yep, and I'm rude ;).

Delt
09-24-2009, 05:21 PM
Sure Delt. Whatever you say. Yep, and I'm rude ;).

I can only stomach repeating myself so many times :)

PS - if you like FPS, I assumed you played BF2. God forbid you earn rank for unlocks there eh -- think EA will accept a $20 bribe to bypass it if I whine enough?

Aesop
09-24-2009, 05:23 PM
I am well aware Cannith can't be done. You didn't specify that. That said, I find it beyond hilarious that you would be considering 28pt builds on a BRAND NEW server gimped. And god forbid the players that earn the favor there be rewarded for their efforts.



Where did I say that 28 point builds were gimped?

I may have said that people don't enjoy not being on even footing and that many have found it to be a turn off that they have to build a character inorder to build a second character

I may have said that I don't want to have to grind out another 1750 favor because grinds bore the hell out of me...

I may have even said that certain builds nearly require 32 points to be truly viable.

however to clarify its notthat 28 point builds are gimped... its that no one likes having to build what many consider to be a "throw away character" in order to get what many consider to be a main character.

Aesop

Delt
09-24-2009, 05:27 PM
Where did I say that 28 point builds were gimped?

So not "gimped", but "throw away" worthy? Is there a difference?

Fine, you didn't say gimped then. Not sure I understand where the line is between those two terms, but it not particularly important.

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 05:29 PM
I can only stomach repeating myself so many times :)

PS - if you like FPS, I assumed you played BF2. God forbid you earn rank for unlocks there eh -- think EA will accept a $20 bribe to bypass it if I whine enough?

Completely different game.
But hey, whine away. Just like whining to make sure they don't is your right as well, as you've demonstrated elegantly in this thread ;).

But please continue to believe that I'm whining to make things easier on myself. It allows me many chuckles.
As I've said in my other posts I really hoped your argument had more substance then the fact that allowing an alternative TP way to earn 32 points wouldn't pave the way to allowing everything in the store.
I'm glad your argument is far more sophisticated and is rather that 32 points are like Raid Loot. Makes little sense to me. But like you said I can understand your POV and disagree.
My point is that 1750/32 was a reward that served it's purpose. It's time to change that antiquated Reward.

captfurious
09-24-2009, 05:31 PM
C'mon, there are lot of players interested in paying to get 40 point build from the store instead of reaching 1750 favor and farming for 4 +2 tomes (just like drow and favored soul) and still there isn't this option ?
Turbine, are you sure you want our money? Seems you don't like them (I am an American player, already a VIP on DDO:Eberron Unlimited but I have no time to farm 1750 and 4 +2 tomes and then do again the character, I'm ready to pay to buy 40 pnt build).

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 05:33 PM
So not "gimped", but "throw away" worthy? Is there a difference?

Fine, you didn't say gimped then. Not sure I understand where the line is between those two terms, but it not particularly important.

Yes there is a difference. A "throw away character' simply means that he cannot benefit from the 32 point upgrade so if you roll another character just like him ,but with those extra points there is no point in keeping the old guy if/when the new guy gets the same gear and level.
"Throw away" character is as much a misnomer as a "gimp".
It does not mean he is "gimp" depending on how you define gimp.

Gimp is too subjective. How about "an identical character with more points", does that help?

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 05:33 PM
C'mon, there are lot of players interested in paying to get 40 point build from the store instead of reaching 1750 favor and farming for 4 +2 tomes (just like drow and favored soul) and still there isn't this option ?
Turbine, are you sure you want our money? Seems you don't like them (I am an American player, already a VIP on DDO:Eberron Unlimited but I have no time to farm 1750 and 4 +2 tomes and then do again the character, I'm ready to pay to buy 40 pnt build).

Good attempt at sarcasm.
Join a good Guild. Ask them for +2 Tomes.
No need to grind unless you can't join a guild or you like grinding.

Aesop
09-24-2009, 05:40 PM
C'mon, there are lot of players interested in paying to get 40 point build from the store instead of reaching 1750 favor and farming for 4 +2 tomes (just like drow and favored soul) and still there isn't this option ?
Turbine, are you sure you want our money? Seems you don't like them (I am an American player, already a VIP on DDO:Eberron Unlimited but I have no time to farm 1750 and 4 +2 tomes and then do again the character, I'm ready to pay to buy 40 pnt build).

Drow can be the equivilent of about 36 point builds... is that close enough?

:rolleyes:

captfurious
09-24-2009, 05:44 PM
Good attempt at sarcasm.
Join a good Guild. Ask them for +2 Tomes.
No need to grind unless you can't join a guild or you like grinding.

Are you implying that my sarcasm failed (you used the word attempt)? If so, read on...

Just as a I don't have time to farm for 1750, or farm for tomes, I have no time to join a guild to ask for them, or for that matter, to ask them for helping favoring a toon up to 1750.

I want my 40pt build now.... and I am willing to pay for it. Can't turbine see that?

eonfreon
09-24-2009, 05:47 PM
Are you implying that my sarcasm failed (you used the word attempt)? If so, read on...

Just as a I don't have time to farm for 1750, or farm for tomes, I have no time to join a guild to ask for them, or for that matter, to ask them for helping favoring a toon up to 1750.

I want my 40pt build now.... and I am willing to pay for it. Can't turbine see that?

Much better. Keep it coming ;).
Let me try the other side:
I already have a 40+ point toon- 32 point + 2 Str tome, +1 Con Tome, +3 Wis Tome, + 2 Dex Tome, + 2 Cha Tome. If these things are available at the store I would have no reason to have gotten all those tomes in the first place in the manner I did.

Unfair!!!! Don't invalidate my Tome finding/buying/earning!!!

Wow, that was cathartic.

Banner
09-24-2009, 05:48 PM
Although you make good points and I agree that Turbine made a bad decision with the 32-point character mechanic....

I just want to point out that a 28 point character is NOT a throw-away... It can be your "real" character... It was for all of us... Most of us vets still have our original 28 point characters... Mine is a dwarf cleric.

My wisdom is as high as any 32 point character. My spells hit just as hard, I heal just as well... I could not make him any better at casting or healing.

I have 20 less hit points than I could have... that's it.. Instead of 470 hps, I only have 450 hps... Or maybe I could have +1 to hit and damage. I carry a big axe and do plenty of damage. No problems hitting, so maybe instead of averaging 50 points of damage a hit, I could do 51...

If that 2% less damage would actually bother you as you played, then yes you shouldn't play this game (or any MMO). Each Mod changes the game play mechanics. A "perfect" character in Mod 4 will not be "perfect" in Mod 7.

All that said, I vote for Turbine to make 32 point characters available in the store, but know that a 28 point character is 99% as good as a 32 point character...


Thanks for the feedback, Trudh.

I agree with you that game mods are often made that impact character value or change the basis upon which player character development decisions were made (e.g., "I picked the Bugblatter class because they can teleport. After I spent a gazillion hours developing my kick-butt Bugblatter, Flaccid, the McDoofus corporation built a teleportor into every tree. Flaccid has been virtually castrated.").

I dislike such changes unless really justified. Nevertheless, they are inevitable.

captfurious
09-24-2009, 06:17 PM
Much better. Keep it coming ;).
Let me try the other side:
I already have a 40+ point toon- 32 point + 2 Str tome, +1 Con Tome, +3 Wis Tome, + 2 Dex Tome, + 2 Cha Tome. If these things are available at the store I would have no reason to have gotten all those tomes in the first place in the manner I did.

Unfair!!!! Don't invalidate my Tome finding/buying/earning!!!

Wow, that was cathartic.

Apparently my first and second attempts at sarcasm did not work... I apologize.

http://xkcd.com/386/

Ephemeral
09-24-2009, 06:42 PM
I play on cannith, and i am one of the few that has 32pt builds unlocked.

Please make 32pt builds available for all on this server. I don't have an epeen problem, and I pity those that do.

I didn't earn this privilege, i merely played long enough that i got it. Anyone that claims they are 'special' because they have 32 pt builds is an idiot. I would like all the people that play on my server to have access to these builds, because I want my server to be populated by people that identiy with, and are bound to, their characters.

Thank you.

Strakeln
09-24-2009, 07:05 PM
The stupid thing here is the existence of the 32pt reward for 1750 favor. Making them buyable in store is fixing that mistake.
/signed

+rep for you

This argument has gone on in dozens of threads. Put simply, I know a handful of people who quit due to the foolishness of how 32-point builds have been implemented. I don't know anyone who will quit if they put 32 points up for sale, though I'd have to imagine I wouldn't shed many tears over that type of person leaving the game.

Put the builds on sale. Make money. Make players happy. Stop listening to the vets who want everyone else to have to do everything they did. It won't affect the vets, nothing in their gameplay experience will change. Is is affecting the new players.

lucien123
09-24-2009, 07:09 PM
/signed

+rep for you

This argument has gone on in dozens of threads. Put simply, I know a handful of people who quit due to the foolishness of how 32-point builds have been implemented. I don't know anyone who will quit if they put 32 points up for sale, though I'd have to imagine I wouldn't shed many tears over that type of person leaving the game.

Put the builds on sale. Make money. Make players happy. Stop listening to the vets who want everyone else to have to do everything they did. It won't affect the vets, nothing in their gameplay experience will change. Is is affecting the new players.

+1 rep

lucien123
09-24-2009, 07:09 PM
I play on cannith, and i am one of the few that has 32pt builds unlocked.

Please make 32pt builds available for all on this server. I don't have an epeen problem, and I pity those that do.

I didn't earn this privilege, i merely played long enough that i got it. Anyone that claims they are 'special' because they have 32 pt builds is an idiot. I would like all the people that play on my server to have access to these builds, because I want my server to be populated by people that identiy with, and are bound to, their characters.

Thank you.

+1 rep

eonfreon
09-25-2009, 12:24 AM
Apparently my first and second attempts at sarcasm did not work... I apologize.

http://xkcd.com/386/

No problem. I see the humor in your link. It's funny. Well done.
I'm sure when you're done with making me laugh you'll get to a point of some kind.

So do you want to pay me to get you a 40 point if Turbine won't do it? Is that your point?
Darn, I'm sure that was another attempt at sarcasm wasn't it?
Darn, sorry.

Funny link though. Nice work typing that link out.
Hopefully you'll find the time to get 1750 first before you worry about 40 points.
It'll really help ya to get to 1750 first, honest.
Do you need a recommendation to a guild?
You'll have to run with us a few times to prove your worth. It'll all have to jive or sorry, I can't get you a 40 point. Sorry. You'll just have to accept that you're not 40 point material until you're ready to show that you've got the right stuff ;).

Mercules
09-25-2009, 09:23 AM
People who have a 1750 character can basically unlock 32 point builds on all servers(except Cannith). They have to pay to transfer said character to each server, log in and unlock the 32 point build then pay to transfer to the next server.

Since you can grind the favor once and then pay Turbine to unlock it on each server, Turbine might as well take the next step and just let people pay to unlock 32 point builds just like they can Drow(favor unlock) and Favored Souls(favor unlock). It is even the middle unlock being 1750 which is between the 400 and 2500.

The 4 extra points really don't have a huge effect on game play, but the perception of them being better appears to be causing trouble with the OCD crowd.:rolleyes: