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View Full Version : DDO Lords I beseech you. (buff/heal) pure bard build



happypuppy
09-18-2009, 11:42 PM
It seems everybody wants to be a WW warchanter so I can't find the build I'm looking for, already checked the template and google.
Just looking to buff and heal my team, 28pt and no classes unlocked. It would be nice to do some damage but if it hurts the build and I do crappy damage then it's not worth it.
I'm really itching to play but can't until I plan my char, so any help would be really apreciated.

I am at your feet my lords.

Furluge
09-19-2009, 02:32 AM
I think the bard you'd like to play exists, but only in 4th edition D&D. ;)

Anthios888
09-19-2009, 02:43 AM
28 pt Human Warchanter pure bard
14 strength
8 dexterity
8 intelligence
14 constitution
8 wisdom
18 charisma (level ups here)

Feats:

1 toughness, weapon focus: slashing
3 extend spell
6 power attack (pick up warchanter)
9 empower healing (swap for maximize later)
12 heighten spell*
15 quicken spell
18 spell penetration

* - heighten and spell penetration are to boost your crowd control, which should be quite good, even without being a spellsinger. They will help a lot on your soundburst, dancing balls, irresistible dance, mass suggestion, dominate person, crushing despair, etc. If you find that you are not interested in crowd control and mostly want to heal, you can pick up mental toughness feats instead, but I prefer the added dimension.
Warchanter is not a bad option for healing, because the extra damage from your song buffs combined with the DR / 5 will help your party mow through mobs faster and help them take a lot less damage in the process, making your job easier. This will come at the cost of a lower mana pool, but will also allow you to wade in and melee more effectively than you would be able to as spellsinger.

This is a great all-around character from start to finish, and I am making an identical one on my 2nd account to help unlock 1750, haggle, and be a good party member from lowbies to endgame raiding.

Vormaerin
09-19-2009, 03:06 AM
If you wish to be a buff/heal specialist, the most important thing is to max your Charisma. Start at 18 with either a halfling, elf, or human as you prefer. Get a decent Con (~14) and the rest you can do with what you will. Dex is probably the best place to put the rest, since you are likely to end up doing ranged attacks (and it helps your Reflex Save also), but I'm not fond of the min/max strategy of taking lots of 8s, so I'd do something like this:

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 18

Then look to go Spellsinger. This enhancement will give you +100 spell points that you'll really need to keep up the steady flow of spells.

Feats should include Toughness, Extend, and Empower Healing. Then you want to look at Mental Toughness, Skill Focus: Use Magic Device, Spell Focus: Enchantment, and related feats depending on what best suits what you are doing. I have Quickdraw because I use tons of wands, but you may not find that useful yourself.

Enhancements: Song Magic, the +Spell Points line, +Cha, the prereqs for spell singer, and every Song enhancer (+attack, +dmg, +duration, +uses) you can get.

You won't do a lot of damage, but you should hit decently with all your bard enhancements and spells up. So you should probably look at using debuffing weapons rather than damaging ones. Cursespewing, Paralyzing, Crippling, whatever you can get your hands on.

Hang back, target the guys your melee is already targeting, and use your crowd control and songs to make everyone else love life.

Noctus
09-19-2009, 10:23 AM
The stat distribution of Anthios is better, as it allows you to contribute in melee, regardless of being a Warchanter or Spellsinger. While VormaerionĀ“s will lock you into the non-combatant role.

happypuppy
09-19-2009, 11:31 AM
The stat distribution of Anthios is better, as it allows you to contribute in melee, regardless of being a Warchanter or Spellsinger. While VormaerionĀ“s will lock you into the non-combatant role.

I really liked Vormaerion's build it's what I'm looking for but it seems judging from some comments like Furluge is that warchanter it's THE build to make a helpful Bard.
So far Vormaerion's build is what I'm going for unless someone else has more advice. Thanks guys.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-19-2009, 11:42 AM
I really liked Vormaerion's build it's what I'm looking for but it seems judging from some comments like Furluge is that warchanter it's THE build to make a helpful Bard.
So far Vormaerion's build is what I'm going for unless someone else has more advice. Thanks guys.

Anthios888's stat breakdown is better. Go with those stats, but go spell singer for the extra SP and SP reduction song. Feats:

1 toughness, Mental Toughness
3 extend spell
6 Improved Mental Toughness
9 empower healing
12 heighten spell
15 quicken spell
18 spell penetration

moonprophet
09-19-2009, 11:50 AM
Try using Ron's character planner to pre-plan your build. The link is: http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/

TreknaQudane
09-19-2009, 12:00 PM
My question is why 'Empower Healing' being suggested here.

Despite the name, Empower and Maximize do work with Healing spells and are more useful than 'Empower Healing' since only Clerics receive the ability negate the cost of the Metamagic to any reasonable amount.

Gadget2775
09-19-2009, 12:20 PM
You could always switch to a Repeater style build. Your DPS will be a bit on the low side (Although repeaters at early levels are brutal) but it lets you stay out of the front lines while still contributing. Additionally it should be easier to figure out which spells work best and how if you aren't in the middle of the melee puddle...

Lorien_the_First_One
09-19-2009, 12:25 PM
My question is why 'Empower Healing' being suggested here.

Despite the name, Empower and Maximize do work with Healing spells and are more useful than 'Empower Healing' since only Clerics receive the ability negate the cost of the Metamagic to any reasonable amount.

Empower healing works as well as empower and costs less SPs.

tihocan
09-19-2009, 12:40 PM
If you're not sure you can still take the pre-made warchanter build. At first sight it looks reasonable.

Gadget2775
09-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Empower healing works as well as empower and costs less SPs.

Side note: Not many Bard Spells deal direct damage. Just not a whole lot of reasons to spend more spell points on healing spells if you only have one DD spell. (IE Soundburst, which is usually much more useful as a Stunning effect than DD)

Vormaerin
09-19-2009, 02:15 PM
What spell is a bard Empowering or Maximizing besides Healing spells? I can only recall three damage spells off the top of my head and the base damage on them is minimal: you use them for the stun effects anyway. So why spend the extra spell points on every heal (which you will cast a lot) just for that?

Warchanter vs Spellsinger: The reason warchanters are popular in builds is twofold: More people like being bad*** in melee than uber at crowd control/healing. Secondly, at the very high levels its hard to crowd control the kinds of mobs currently fought most often. Its not impossible, but a lot of people would rather just chop them up than bother. I don't worry about that kind of thing, because it changes every time they release new endgame content.

As for stat distributions, I did mention that mine is not the extreme min/max version that is "best". The strength difference isn't that big a deal, though; he's going to be entirely dependent on his buffs in melee either way.

I have a bard at lvl 13 with about that distribution. With max bard songs and buffs I still hit things, though as the main healer in our group I've gone with the ranged debuffers as my non spellcasting contribution. My DPS is terrible, but +2 damage from Strength wouldn't help that noticeably, even when I am in melee. I find the extra skill point and +1 will save matters a lot more.

If he wants to be a meaningful melee contributor, he needs a completely different build, not a slight shift of points.

happypuppy
09-19-2009, 03:07 PM
Excellent I'm learning stuff. I'm really liking what you're saying Vormaerin, one of the things I learned is that I can debuff the mobs instead of dps with my weapon.
I really don't care for Dps especially since most of the players are centered around that.

Now a question about the stats, since I don' care about DPS should I still put 10pt on Strenght. I know having a negative score is a bad thing but I really don't know how it affects me in the long run. Maybe I can put the points in Intel for more mana. And do Repeater or Wands get affected by dexterity?

Mr. Vormaerin, does your bard aggro much? don't know if healing and buffing makes the mobs hate you. Also do you get hit a lot or even get hit?

Thanks Mighty Lords

Vormaerin
09-19-2009, 04:46 PM
Wands are not affected by Dex, but crossbows are. The only downside of going to 8 Str is that you can carry less stuff. This may or may not matter, depending on how you play. Obviously, it'll reduce your melee damage, since you'll have a -1 to dmg instead of +0.

Charisma is where your Mana comes from. You will already have that maxed out. Int would just get you another skill point per level. If you plan on using debuff ranged weapons and you want to completely dump stats, then put the extra points in Dex. But its not going to make a noticable difference whether your tertiary stats are +0 or +1. So do whatever makes your character fun for you. The important thing for your purpose is to keep Charisma as high as possible. THen try to keep up your HP so you don't get squished by a random spell or whatever.

My bard does not aggro much and I have a very high Diplomacy to shed it when I do get it. Sometimes I get some aggro from throwing Mass Cures around, especially in undead adventures where that is both an AoE attack and a heal spell in effect. Just let your melee types start the fight, then you should be fine.

Gadget2775
09-19-2009, 07:29 PM
As mentioned dex is for repeaters (all ranged weapons). You can survive on an 8 base str (my build does), but if you have a couple points to spare I'd reccomend pumping str to a 10, 11 or 12. And yes, an odd number in strength is ok for a repeater build. Carry capacity increases even on odd str points so every last one helps.

Weights for you


Shortbow 2 lbs
Longbow 3 lbs
Light Xbow 4 lbs
Heavy Xbow 8 lbs
Lt Rpt Xbow 6 lbs
Hv Rpt Xbow 12 lbs


Since I have an 8 base str on my build my max carry with a +6 str item and +1 str tome is 990lbs. Carrying very little extra equipment and an assortment of nine light repeaters + and ammo I have 120lbs or so in load weight. If I'm not carefull during a longer chain my backpack fills up and I become encumbered which can be a real nuissence.

At lower levels you won't have that plus six item or the House D bolts (75% return rate) so you'll be fairly limited in how much you can carry/loot during quest.

happypuppy
09-20-2009, 10:40 AM
My lord, my lord. I have sinned, I took the min/max strategy
S8, D14, C14, I8, W8, C18

After Gadgets post decided I could also go with 8 str, since I will have max haggle and only loot expensive stuff and sell it I'm hoping I won't run into money problems and won't be able to carry a mini-store in my backpack but will manage.
I went with higher Dexterity for the saves, dps be dammend but I think I will do some.
With Intel I have all the skill poins I like and for the will saves taking Force of personality, so I'm really liking this stat build.

For feats I went with Toughness, SF: UMD, Mental tougness, Improve mental toughness, Force of personality, Empower healing, Extend and I have one left (human), any advice.

Since the selection of my spells are mostly buffs (cat's grace, displacement, haste, freedom of movement, remove curse, good hope, the heal spells and like two cc spells) is it really worh it to take spell penetration? I imagine it only works if you want to use spells on mobs.
Also Heroes feast seems like a really funny spell, thinking if it's really not worth it with all my other buffs. Will read that thread again about the stacking of buffs.

For enchants going to follow with what you said Vormaerin haven't read all of them but if I mess up I can always change them.

Thanks lords, I would aprecciate any more input.

Gadget2775
09-20-2009, 12:44 PM
With only one feat left there's a couple ways I can see to play it...


Lt Repeaters: Good bang for the buck. Bows and X-Bows are really slow in this game so if you want to contribute (not rule the pack by any means) this is the way to go. As a note, you can use a Rptr without the feat, but the game treats it as a normal Xbow and you'll have a -4 to hit.

Maximize or Empower: Both should stack with Empower Healing to increase the amount healed per spell. Be very careful, having more than one meta-magic on will chew through your spell points in a hurry which makes this situational.

Enlarge: Increase your range so players can be farther away (you still have to see them) while healing. Situational and cost extra sp

Quicken: Cast faster without risk of being interrupted. Again situational and expensive.

Heighten: Only good after you gain level 2 spells (will give your lower levels spells a boost DC wise to match that of your highest level spells) and only if you cast offensively. The reason I mention this one is the stat buffs become obsolete around level 9 (they don't stack with items that grant a +4 or better bonus). Means you might have some spells slots to spare out and experiment with offensive casting.

Hmmm...That about chews my brain. Hope it helps and good luck!

happypuppy
09-20-2009, 04:09 PM
Wait, so even the spells can't stack with the armor. Are you sure? It seems silly to give the player a spell and make it absolete in a few levels then having a lvl6 spell that gives that said spell an AoE effect.
If that's the case then I'm going to have to go a bit more CC and rethink that spell penetration feet, no use having cc that doesn't hit. Dammit and here I thought I had a build ready.

Is it recommended that a take one class to get other buffs I can't get with my bard? it seems not worth it since at lvl20 my songs get that +1 boost

This game isn't buff friendly, have no clue which of my teamates has the buff and/or when they have a curse. Is there a guide about curses, enchants, status effect and so on? Don't know if stone is a curse or status and the wiki doesn't have that much information.

Also I'm dumping all my skill points on Perform, haggle, diplomacy, concentration, UMD. Is there a limit where I should stop dumping points there cause it has no actual benefit when it reaches a certain number well I could use it in another skill like balance.

I have beseeched and the lords have answered, all hail the vets.

Gadget2775
09-20-2009, 04:23 PM
Wait, so even the spells can't stack with the armor. Are you sure? It seems silly to give the player a spell and make it absolete in a few levels then having a lvl6 spell that gives that said spell an AoE effect.
If that's the case then I'm going to have to go a bit more CC and rethink that spell penetration feet, no use having cc that doesn't hit. Dammit and here I thought I had a build ready.
Spells grant an Enchantment bonus (unless other wise stated). Stat boosting items usually grant an Enchantment bonus as well. General rule is that like type bonus don't stack. Unfortunately the mass stat buffs fall into this category as well.

With regards to spell bonuses to armor they won't usually stack with a similar bonus. IE Mage Armor won't stack with actual armor, Shield spell won't stack with shield, etc...Your Bard Songs however should stack.

The one big exception to this is Dodge bonus. Those stack as long as they're of a different value. (IE +3 Dodge won't stack with +3 Dodge, but will stack with +3 Dodge)


Is it recommended that a take one class to get other buffs I can't get with my bard? it seems not worth it since at lvl20 my songs get that +1 boost
No. Don't get me wrong, multi-classing can lead to splendid results. But it needs to be carefully planned and in the case of a Bard is usually unnecessary. UMD allows Bards to cast most every spell in the game via Scroll/Wands without resorting to Multi-Classing.


This game isn't buff friendly, have no clue which of my teamates has the buff and/or when they have a curse. Is there a guide about curses, enchants, status effect and so on? Don't know if stone is a curse or status and the wiki doesn't have that much information.
You can tell what buffs a player has on them. Use the mouse to select them and the examine them (think it's defaulted to "P", but that may have changed recently). The window that pops up will tell you all of the spell buffs they have (not buffs from items...Just spells)

Don't belive there's a guide to cures...And not sure what you mean by stone...Little more info and I'll try to help.

Vormaerin
09-20-2009, 08:38 PM
Wait, so even the spells can't stack with the armor. Are you sure? It seems silly to give the player a spell and make it absolete in a few levels then having a lvl6 spell that gives that said spell an AoE effect.


It depends on the spell. Mage Armor gives +Armor, so it doesn't stack with physical armor. Shield gives +Shield AC, so it doesn't stack with Shields, but does stack with armor. Shield of Faith gives a +Deflection, so it stacks with both shields and armor, but not with Protection rings. Barkskin gives +Natural Armor, so it stacks with nearly everything.

happypuppy
09-21-2009, 09:47 PM
You can tell what buffs a player has on them. Use the mouse to select them and the examine them (think it's defaulted to "P", but that may have changed recently). The window that pops up will tell you all of the spell buffs they have (not buffs from items...Just spells)

Don't belive there's a guide to cures...And not sure what you mean by stone...Little more info and I'll try to help.

Found out it's the letter "z", awesome now i don't have to ask pugs and get no response. Also i think pugs don't like my singing they just scamper instead of sticking close while the song finishes :/.
Was refering to things like hold, petrify, doom, dancing mostly cc's and debuffs. Want to take remove curse but don't know what exactly it removes, would like to take dispel but it would just f-up my buffs.

Ok with that in mind I think I'll have to stick with the bows, is the Lt Repeater the fastest shooting bow? Since healing is about critical timing wouldn't want to heal a teamate and wait after my char finishes reloading/attacking.
Going with cc without great spell penetration makes me uneasy also it's more MP that I could use for healing.
Will use some wands to debuff mobs and then shoot contributing my meager dps in a way, I have to do something while i'm not healing.

I'm a little dissapointed with the selection of lvl 5 and 6 spells, lvl 3 and 4 spells are awesome. I'm liking this build the bad thing is I have a long way to go to see it flourish. Thanks for the buff explenations, I'm unworthy.

Vormaerin
09-21-2009, 09:54 PM
Repeating Crossbows are exotic, so you'd need a special feat to use them. By default, you only have proficiency in light and heavy crossbows.

Remove Curse removes curses.... you will see a black and red icon over the head of anyone with a curse (with one or two exceptions).

Most serious debuffs put some kind of icon over the victim's head so you know what it is and what needs to be done about it.

Gadget2775
09-22-2009, 03:00 AM
Found out it's the letter "z", awesome now i don't have to ask pugs and get no response. Also i think pugs don't like my singing they just scamper instead of sticking close while the song finishes :/.
Even in guild runs its hard to get folks to hold still. If I'm intent I usually call them together for a buff I know they want (Haste, I'm looking at you) and the start singing while I run. Really odd since one of the songs increases DPS, which everyone wants really badly ;)



Was refering to things like hold, petrify, doom, dancing mostly cc's and debuffs. Want to take remove curse but don't know what exactly it removes, would like to take dispel but it would just f-up my buffs.

Most everything has a specific counter spell and as mentioned most of them have a specific spell effect assoicated with them. Hold (Blue rings around the player) = remove Paralasis, Flesh to Stone (They're gray and can't move) = Stone to Flesh, Curse (Floating black party hat kinda thing) = Remove Curse. You'll gradually learn what the signs are.


Ok with that in mind I think I'll have to stick with the bows, is the Lt Repeater the fastest shooting bow? Since healing is about critical timing wouldn't want to heal a teamate and wait after my char finishes reloading/attacking.

Repeaters (dont think theres a speed difference between light and heavy) have the fastest fire speed. Just hold down the attack button and launch away. Reload time is a second or two but you'll get a feel for it and be able to cast around it in no time.


Will use some wands to debuff mobs and then shoot contributing my meager dps in a way, I have to do something while i'm not healing.
Most wands won't do much good for Debuffing. It's a matter of DC's...Your DC (as long as you can cast the spell) is pretty much always going to be better than a Wands. When you cast a spell it operates on 10 + Spell Level + Stat Modifier (in this case Charisma). Wands operate on the minimum which means it won't be effected by items or your Charisma Mod which is higher than the base to cast.

happypuppy
09-22-2009, 05:41 PM
I think in all the games I've played where I buff or heal it's hard for most players to just stand still and wait. It's all about dps, loot, xp and getting there fast.

Awesome now I now what and how to dispel it. I think i was carrying over information from other rpg's where they have categories for harmful magic.

Thank you so much for your help guys, now I'm enjoying the game more with this build.
Special thanks to Vormaerin & Gadget2775 for your patience and advice :D

sunkenfaith
09-22-2009, 10:19 PM
I think the bard is fine the way it is now.

Orratti
09-22-2009, 10:33 PM
make a warchanter with a high charisma and throw in a lvl or two of sorc or favored soul. Don't bother with any charm spells until charm monster and disco ball. Get maximize to make the most of healing. Go for buff caster. That will do the trick.

Gadget2775
09-22-2009, 11:33 PM
make a warchanter with a high charisma and throw in a lvl or two of sorc or favored soul. Don't bother with any charm spells until charm monster and disco ball. Get maximize to make the most of healing. Go for buff caster. That will do the trick.

Trying to wrap my head around your advice and it's beyond me. Why in the world would you splash a level or two of Favored Soul or Sorc? And why would you ignore Charm Person/Suggestion? Both good spells when properly applied (If the OP wants to play with offensive casting)

Orratti
09-23-2009, 10:37 AM
You throw favored soul or sorc in there to increase your spell points to be able to handle the healing of a full party. You can use fascinate to replace charm spells just take the enhancements to increase your number of songs, or take hypnotize. The bard combat buffs make it possible to solo without any need for charming so essentially you don't need those spells once your character is buffed for combat. Bards lack enough spell points to play healer unless you go spell singer and even then I can't be sure. Bards don't get the heal spell so emp healing isn't as good as maximize for boosting healing. I have built this class mix (bard/sorc) and run as the group cleric most of the time. This is the kind of bard you said you were looking for, here is a solution. If you have a character generator play with it a little bit and you will be able to see what I am saying. As a bard probably everyone would agree that you need to grab extend. Extend and maximize should be the only metamagic feats you will need. An extended good hope will overpower your warchanter song for a good while so you can save you songs for fascinating. Most songs and spells don't overlap so good hope will be better than song or heroism. I believe that if you look in the bard forums you can find a thread about bard buffs that do and do not stack.

mrclean92124
09-30-2009, 11:41 AM
I went with Nigel's hagglebard build and splashed 1 level of figher to get the heavy repeating xbow ability. Really makes a HUGE difference at lower levels due to being able to "unload" 3 shots quickly, then step behind a pilar or whatever to cast a few spells while xbow reloads.

Being able to wear mithril chain/shield is a huge benefit too 8p.

XCodes
09-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Isn't there also an option to hang back for buff/healing while having a Scorching Ray wand to help take out big, dangerous enemies quicker? With the 75% boost Bards can get to wands, that sounds pretty good to me.

Gadget2775
09-30-2009, 11:08 PM
Isn't there also an option to hang back for buff/healing while having a Scorching Ray wand to help take out big, dangerous enemies quicker? With the 75% boost Bards can get to wands, that sounds pretty good to me.

Two big issues....(Basing this on level 11 since that's where the Bard is able to kick up 75%)

Finding a wand of equivalent level...Other wise you're throwing down on a level 3 wand...Which means you're minus extra two extra rays.

Casters are usually running with Greater/Superior Potency, Elemental Manipulation (40%) Maximize and Empower. Means the 75% increase isn't enough to squeak about. (This of course ignores the Wiz/Sorcs crit changes in favor of base numbers)

Beyond that it's simply more cost efficient in the long run to stock a good ranged weapon (or three), or five :)). Finding a Holy Burst of Pure Good repeater and loading up with +3 Sturdy Bolts from House D is going to put out more damage than a level 3 Wand without blinking, even if you find a level 11 wand for three rays it's still doubtful you'll keep up with a repeater.

On the other hand that enhancement will definitely help out a Healing Bard. 75% on top of a Cure Serious wand, Heal or Repair Scroll gives a big ol' boost.