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View Full Version : Deceptive store practices, Turbine?



Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 04:41 PM
So Turbine,

We know that you don't want to be accused of being criminals, right? Out here in the "real" world, it is not acceptable for a business to raise the price of an item, and then advertise a "sale" on that item that returns the price back to the original price point. That's considered fraud. I would argue that it should also be considered fraud in the turbine store as well.

You have done this in at least one case, and I suspect probably in many cases, with these daily "sales" you have going. When something is originally priced at 521 points, then you jack the price up to 695 and advertise it as being on a "25% off sale" that merely reduces the price back to the original price, this is fraud. It's not legal.

Turbine, you have a dismal track record with many of your current and former customers. During this time when you are trying to bring in fresh player base and appeal to new players and bring more folks into the game, do you really want to alienate folks by committing fraud against them for a buck?

This is in addition to the fact that many players (myself included) are still waiting on their 999 point reward as well as their veteran rewards. And many other players are reporting that they have been billed already since DDO:EU went live, and they have not received their VIP points, despite days going by. And the account support team is apparently very backlogged, because it's taking them literally weeks to answer inquiries.

When people were only paying subscription money which only purchased them access to the servers, then the sorts of delay's and mistakes and bad decisions that are being made now were not as big a deal. But now, people are spending money specifically for turbine points and things from the store. At best, what's going on is incompetence on a massive scale. At worse, intentional defrauding of the customer base.

I have to wonder how a lawsuit alleging fraud brought by a large portion of your active customer base would affect your current litigation with Atari. I'd imagine it would give them some circumstantial evidence to back up their claim that you have shady business practices...

KoboldKiller
09-17-2009, 04:47 PM
I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

Cyr
09-17-2009, 04:50 PM
Hear hear OP!

Turbine has a very poor track record of honest communication with the player base. Everything they say almost has to be examined to see how it sounded like they said one thing, but actually left it open to mean exactly the opposite.

This business with the store though is inexcusable. This is non-delivery of goods. Just because it is a digital product does not make it exempt from acceptable business practices.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 04:50 PM
I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

They have a real world cost do they not? That's all it takes to meet the definition of fraud. Yes, this is on a very small scale (probably less than a couple dollars) ... but it's on a massive scale. If 10,000 players take advantage of the "sale" and are defrauded out of $1.50 worth of turbine points each, that's $15,000 ... and Turbine was bragging that "millions upon millions" of turbine points were sold during the VIP preview days.

Talish
09-17-2009, 04:55 PM
Hmm these prices went up when?

During headstart for DDO:EU everything in the store was pretty well on sale(sept 1- Sept 8). After it went live to the world Sept 9th the prices were returned to their regular price.

oberon131313
09-17-2009, 04:55 PM
erm. For these items you are alleging that Turbine "raised the price on" when you purchased them the first week, did you happen to check the pricing in the checkout screen? I noticed that for a lot of items, on the final purchase screen, the base price was higher, and I got the sale price. Unless you have a comprehensive price list from release, you can't really claim that the prices were raised, as the price that showed during the first week may have been sale pricing, just unadvertised.

GreyRogue
09-17-2009, 04:56 PM
The OP doesn't have enough info in it to know what specific items are involved, but I would point out that there was an unadvertised sale on a great number of items in the store during the headstart period. Many things were 25% off, which brought them to around the Lammania prices, even though the non-sale price had been adjusted. Ending a sale, then starting another sale is not fraud. In any case, even if everything in the OP is the completely unvarnished truth, it would not necessarily fall under any legal definition of fraud or deceptive marketing practices. Turbine is allowed to change the price on items in its store, either permanently or as part of a temporary sale. The full-price cost and sale cost are both available in the store for the customer's inspection. The thing that would show fraudulent intent would be if the normal price dropped back down after the end of the sale. Without that, you just have Turbine basically being nice by allowing customers a little bit longer to purchase the items at the old price before it goes up.

EDIT: Wow, Talish and Oberon said what I wanted to say but in a lot fewer words!

Xaearth
09-17-2009, 04:57 PM
If you're referring to huge bags (which I suspect to be the case), the price before the sale was not 521 TP, it was 595. That's an important distinction.

Now, after the sale, they are marked down 25% off at 521 TP... Notice the price before the discount - 695 TP.
Is it shady business? Perhaps, but it could just as likely have been a typo on the original price.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 04:58 PM
erm. For these items you are alleging that Turbine "raised the price on" when you purchased them the first week, did you happen to check the pricing in the checkout screen? I noticed that for a lot of items, on the final purchase screen, the base price was higher, and I got the sale price. Unless you have a comprehensive price list from release, you can't really claim that the prices were raised, as the price that showed during the first week may have been sale pricing, just unadvertised.

Which is exactly what I'm saying. The pricing scale isn't actually posted anywhere. There's no notification when prices change anywhere. There's no "log" of what prices were at any given point, other than player memory. Because of this, there is now a situation where it "appears" that things have been handled somewhat fraudulently.



If you're referring to huge bags (which I suspect to be the case), the price before the sale was not 521 TP, it was 595. That's an important distinction.

Now, after the sale, they are marked down 25% off at 521 TP... Notice the price before the discount - 695 TP.
Is it shady business? Perhaps, but it could just as likely have been a typo on the original price.

Interesting ... I'll have to log in and check my log. I was fairly sure that I paid 521 for the two bags I purchased on 09/01/09.


-----


And if the "Huge bag" example is just a matter of perception (completely possible, without any documentation it's all in the eye of the beholder) ... the rest of the original post is still a problem. Points not being awarded, account support inquiries being ignored for days (some players report weeks) ... those things are still going on. Consider that someone who was waiting for their 500 points for the month to finally be awarded so they could purchase a huge collectible's bag without getting out their credit card and purchasing a point block ... now with the patch and the nerf to those bags, they won't get the same value for their points if they choose to purchase the bag as someone else who got the bag before the nerf.

In this case, the player was robbed of having a very convenient item by Turbine withholding points owed to the player.

Marketroid posted that an account is credited the 500 points when the credit card is billed for the month's subscription, and yet this has been reported to not be true. This is deceptive, as some folks are on record as having been waiting for their points to be credited to make a purchase, and now are locked out forever from getting the item they wanted ...

KoboldKiller
09-17-2009, 04:58 PM
They have a real world cost do they not? That's all it takes to meet the definition of fraud. Yes, this is on a very small scale (probably less than a couple dollars) ... but it's on a massive scale. If 10,000 players take advantage of the "sale" and are defrauded out of $1.50 worth of turbine points each, that's $15,000 ... and Turbine was bragging that "millions upon millions" of turbine points were sold during the VIP preview days.


They may have a real world value if you purchased said points or if you could sell your points but nobody is forcing you to buy them. They are technically virtual currency. this happens in the real world on a daily basis. Car prices increase all the time and then they are put on sale. Milk prices change all the time and then get put on sale. markets fluctuate that's the nature of business.

Gamedog
09-17-2009, 05:03 PM
Where's my lawyer...I mean lairer....gonna see what part of turbine I can own.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 05:10 PM
Where's my lawyer...I mean lairer....gonna see what part of turbine I can own.

Come on now, that's missing the point. I was trying to point out that right now is not the time for Turbine to operate in grey areas. People not being given points they are owed and their support inquiries going unanswered for days/weeks ... manipulative pricing that borders on fraud (again, in the eye of the beholder).

Right now, Turbine should reasonably be expected to be on their "best behavior" as it were. Everything should be clear to the players so that nobody feels cheated. Support inquiries should be answered same day (even if that means temp hiring some CS people. After all, they did brag that "millions upon millions" of turbine points had been purchased during the head start. Let's do the math. "Millions upon Millions" means at the very least 4 million points. At one penny per point (and they cost more than that), that's at least $40,000 in revenue that week, just from sale of turbine points, above and beyond all other revenue (subs). That's a low ball figure too!).

Players should be getting the points owed them without serious and long delays. I, personally, am still owed the 999 points and my veteran reward 400 points. My support inquiry has gone unanswered. In addition, my billing date was 31AUG2009 ... a day which the servers were offline the entire day for DDO:EU. To me, that means DDO:EU started that day. I haven't been credited a day on my billing cycle for that day ... I'm expected to just "eat" it. I also didn't get 500 points for this month because only people billed on 01SEP2009 or later were considered "eligible" for that.

Right now, Turbine owes me at least 1399 points outstanding, and have ignored my support request.

My entire point is that right now is the time for Turbine to be putting on their best. It's not time to be manipulating things and doing things that can appear to the players to be shady.

Robi3.0
09-17-2009, 05:12 PM
I personally have spent a lot of time in the store. I don't know what you bought or are use as a example but I can honestly say that I have never seen something for sale in the store for 521 at wasn't discounted. 695 on the other hand is a price that fits with the store's pricing scheme. A lot of the store was on sale during headstart, more then likely what you saw that cost 521 was on sale at the time.

The problem with the store is you can't see that an item is on sale until you click on it for more info or add it to your chart.


In short when window shopping do more then just glance, so that you know exactly what you are getting for what. Sorry the shop has brought you confusion.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 05:14 PM
I personally have spent a lot of time in the store. I don't know what you bought or are use as a example but I can honestly say that I have never seen something for sale in the store for 521 at wasn't discounted. 695 on the other hand is a price that fits with the store's pricing scheme. A lot of the store was on sale during headstart, more then likely what you saw that cost 521 was on sale at the time.

The problem with the store is you can't see that an item is on sale until you click on it for more info or add it to your chart.


In short when window shopping do more then just glance, so that you know exactly what you are getting for what. Sorry the shop has brought you confusion.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. A lot of times you don't realize the item was discounted until you get to the checkout phase of the transaction. I wish the only problem right now was the store pricing fluctuations. To me, that's not even the largest problem when it comes to the turbine store and turbine points. If you read the rest of my post and my most recent follow-up post before this one, you'll see what I mean.

Hafeal
09-17-2009, 05:20 PM
I swear I must be squelched everywhere or everyone really ignores all my posts! :p

OP, you are correct - and here is my thread on it from Monday: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200650

Robi - it has happened, with HUGE bags in particular. I know because I went to buy after having bought one about a week ago for 595. I notced they were "on sale" at 25% for 521. Huh? They had a marked normal price of 695. I come on the forums start my thread and even sent a PM to Quartermaster [edit: no he never did respond].

Then TODAY, at noon, I logon after the update, and low and behold HUGE bags are back to 595.

The problem is that without a formal mechanism to track pricing [edit: for players] - it is easy (and no doubt tempting) for Turbine to play games with the prices. As for them being digital bits - I still think they could be subject to the very laws that prevent retailers from doing the same manipulation. I actually think it is worth considering a class action lawsuit if Turbine keeps this up.

I can only guess they are at least lying low for now to see how closely players monitor the prices. I have tried to keep them up-to-date on my spreadsheet (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198308) but it takes time and I haven't been as diligent as I might like - especially when I would rather play.


I personally have spent a lot of time in the store. I don't know what you bought or are use as a example but I can honestly say that I have never seen something for sale in the store for 521 at wasn't discounted. 695 on the other hand is a price that fits with the store's pricing scheme. A lot of the store was on sale during headstart, more then likely what you saw that cost 521 was on sale at the time.

The problem with the store is you can't see that an item is on sale until you click on it for more info or add it to your chart.


In short when window shopping do more then just glance, so that you know exactly what you are getting for what. Sorry the shop has brought you confusion.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Hafeal, I read your post earlier. Since it corresponded with my own experience, and since I had the other issues with how turbine is handling the points/store system, I thought a new thread covering all of it would be warranted.

Some of the more voracious fanboy's have already replied and tried to make me look ridiculous. To them, I would say review my post history. It's not exceptionally long, and you will likely find me defending Turbine all over the place in it. I don't make up my mind about issues based upon whether I like or am "loyal" to Turbine. When I think they're being unfairly attacked, I step in and say so. When I think they're doing something wrong, I step in and say so.

With these issues, they are, at the very least, doing a terrible job of customer service. At the worst, they are intentionally defrauding people. It's probably somewhere in between. Their job is to make money, and I'm totally cool with that. I would just like for them to be clear and honest about it.

Robi3.0
09-17-2009, 05:39 PM
Yeah, I noticed that as well. A lot of times you don't realize the item was discounted until you get to the checkout phase of the transaction. I wish the only problem right now was the store pricing fluctuations. To me, that's not even the largest problem when it comes to the turbine store and turbine points. If you read the rest of my post and my most recent follow-up post before this one, you'll see what I mean.

Well that will teach me to try to post while making dinner and not refresh before hitting submit.

I don't think Turbine is intentionally withholding points. I have gotten all of mine, but who knows I honestly can't say for sure.

I don't think the whole bag thing, is something that anyone needs to be upset about. Everyone that bought one before the patch gets a BtA bag. Anyone else gets the lesser version. Sure a lot of people missed out and some probably because of missing points. You can hardly calling missing an opportunity fraud. It may be infuriating but it is not fraud. No one is making anyone by the bags with the perceived lesser value.

In fact if a boycott of bag purchases was organized and Turbine started not selling any bags they may change them back. The nerf was most assuredly a grab for money. If they don't make any money from it they may reconsider.

As long as Turbine distributes all owed points in a timely manner I don't think there is any legal consequences to be had. That isn't to say there wont be any consequences Turbine has been on a slippery with the DDO consumer base for a while. This may push a lot of people over the edge.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 05:41 PM
As long as Turbine distributes all owed points in a timely manner I don't think there is any legal consequences to be had. That isn't to say there wont be any consequences Turbine has been on a slippery with the DDO consumer base for a while. This may push a lot of people over the edge.

What would you consider a timely manner? It's now the 17th day I've had access to DDO:EU, and they still owe me 1399 points. Do you think that more than two weeks later is still within a "timely" sort of time frame?

Lorien_the_First_One
09-17-2009, 05:43 PM
I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

Given that the prices are based on REAL cash and not in game currency the false advertising claims would apply. The fact that the cash stops as points makes no difference. There have been legal claims based on airline miles that prove that and they weren't even originally based on cash, the fact that they have value is enough.

Mockduck
09-17-2009, 05:44 PM
I don't have too much to say about this thread, but I don't think a lawsuit would get anyone anywhere. My guess is that there's fine print somewhere when you buy Turbine Points that the real-life money is being exchanged for Turbine Points, not in-game products. And I bet there's fine print somewhere enabling Turbine to alter the ratio of its points and the cost of products at any time. So, when you buy or acquire points, you agree to said changes.

It's bad form to do pricing like this without notice, but certainly not lawsuit-worthy.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-17-2009, 05:46 PM
I swear I must be squelched everywhere or everyone really ignores all my posts! :p

OP, you are correct - and here is my thread on it from Monday: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200650

Robi - it has happened, with HUGE bags in particular. I know because I went to buy after having bought one about a week ago for 595. I notced they were "on sale" at 25% for 521. Huh? They had a marked normal price of 695. I come on the forums start my thread and even sent a PM to Quartermaster [edit: no he never did respond].

Then TODAY, at noon, I logon after the update, and low and behold HUGE bags are back to 595.

The problem is that without a formal mechanism to track pricing [edit: for players] - it is easy (and no doubt tempting) for Turbine to play games with the prices. As for them being digital bits - I still think they could be subject to the very laws that prevent retailers from doing the same manipulation. I actually think it is worth considering a class action lawsuit if Turbine keeps this up.

I can only guess they are at least lying low for now to see how closely players monitor the prices. I have tried to keep them up-to-date on my spreadsheet (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198308) but it takes time and I haven't been as diligent as I might like - especially when I would rather play.

That price change would be a violation of civil and/or criminal business law in most parts of north america. Turbine needs to have a chat with their lawyers who can explain that to them so they stop the dishonest practices.

Robi3.0
09-17-2009, 05:54 PM
I swear I must be squelched everywhere or everyone really ignores all my posts! :p

OP, you are correct - and here is my thread on it from Monday: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200650

Robi - it has happened, with HUGE bags in particular. I know because I went to buy after having bought one about a week ago for 595. I notced they were "on sale" at 25% for 521. Huh? They had a marked normal price of 695. I come on the forums start my thread and even sent a PM to Quartermaster [edit: no he never did respond].

Then TODAY, at noon, I logon after the update, and low and behold HUGE bags are back to 595.

The problem is that without a formal mechanism to track pricing [edit: for players] - it is easy (and no doubt tempting) for Turbine to play games with the prices. As for them being digital bits - I still think they could be subject to the very laws that prevent retailers from doing the same manipulation. I actually think it is worth considering a class action lawsuit if Turbine keeps this up.

I can only guess they are at least lying low for now to see how closely players monitor the prices. I have tried to keep them up-to-date on my spreadsheet (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198308) but it takes time and I haven't been as diligent as I might like - especially when I would rather play.

First When I posted that I had no clue that the OP was taking about Huge bags. Sorry I missed that. I bought a bag for 595 and noticed a few day later that the price was higher then that. I figured I got one on sale and didn't notice "yeah me". I didn't stop to do the math, and didn't think anything of it.

To play devil advocate Stores are allowed to change their prices, and even thought the price was raised and then discounted the sale price was still below the original price so technically it was still "on sale".

Also I would have to imagine the price drop of the bags today had more to do with the fact that the bags were nerfed then the sale's end.

I will concede however that we need to be our own consumer watch dogs. If these kind of things become common practice. We will need to keep an eye out for for it. I doubt we will have any legal recourse unless it becomes insanely bad, but that doesn't mean we are powerless. Turbine needs us more then we need them, remember that Turbine /shakefist.

Mockduck
09-17-2009, 05:54 PM
That price change would be a violation of civil and/or criminal business law in most parts of north america. Turbine needs to have a chat with their lawyers who can explain that to them so they stop the dishonest practices.

However, as far as I know there is almost no consumer law in the U.S. dealing with online game transactions through microprocessing stores like the DDO Store. If Turbine did alter pricing up-discount-back down on Turbine Points, that might be one thing, but altering in-game items likely puts it out of the U.S. court system. I'm sure there's fine print saying that in-game items have no real value.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-17-2009, 05:54 PM
I don't have too much to say about this thread, but I don't think a lawsuit would get anyone anywhere. My guess is that there's fine print somewhere when you buy Turbine Points that the real-life money is being exchanged for Turbine Points, not in-game products. And I bet there's fine print somewhere enabling Turbine to alter the ratio of its points and the cost of products at any time. So, when you buy or acquire points, you agree to said changes.

It's bad form to do pricing like this without notice, but certainly not lawsuit-worthy.

Changing the pricing is fine... deceptive pricing is not.

So if the price is 400, goes on sale @ 25% off for 300, and after the sale a new price is set at 350 they are fine.

But if the price is 350, it is marked up, FOR THE SALE to 400 with a 25% discount to 300, then goes back to 350 after, that's actionable in many areas.

It all comes down to what the consumer protection law is in their home state. I don't have a clue how good or bad it is in that state. A lawsuit probably is not workable, but a complaint to their consumer/business regulator is something that Turbine might be explosed to. Often all that is required there is a consumer complaint and then the regulator goes to work for you.

So if anyone lives in that state... might be time to make a call to your local government office...

Lorien_the_First_One
09-17-2009, 05:56 PM
However, as far as I know there is almost no consumer law in the U.S. dealing with online game transactions through microprocessing stores like the DDO Store. If Turbine did alter pricing up-discount-back down on Turbine Points, that might be one thing, but altering in-game items likely puts it out of the U.S. court system. I'm sure there's fine print saying that in-game items have no real value.

The airlines have fine print saying that airmiles have no value, but they have lost lawsuits where courts have determined that they obviously do have value.

Besides, even if you win such a battle, what exactly would that do to Turbine's reputation?

Time for Turbine to step up and act honest in its business practices, there is no reason for this behavior, just hold a 10% off sale if thats all the discount you want to give.

Hafeal
09-17-2009, 06:02 PM
Lorien, rep for you - like you need it ;) - but you are exactly right.

And Mockduck, Turbine is very well within the jurisdiction of US Courts. Which district you want to bring suit in and the full nature of the claim would make for strategic choices but while many nuances of internet transactions like this are vague, it is the exact nature of the vagueness that can also work against Turbine (not just for them). And given Turbine's success, I am certain some enterprises attorneys would be willing to gamble on a decent claim.


Changing the pricing is fine... deceptive pricing is not.

So if the price is 400, goes on sale @ 25% off for 300, and after the sale a new price is set at 350 they are fine.

But if the price is 350, it is marked up, FOR THE SALE to 400 with a 25% discount to 300, then goes back to 350 after, that's actionable in many areas.

It all comes down to what the consumer protection law is in their home state. I don't have a clue how good or bad it is in that state. A lawsuit probably is not workable, but a complaint to their consumer/business regulator is something that Turbine might be explosed to. Often all that is required there is a consumer complaint and then the regulator goes to work for you.

So if anyone lives in that state... might be time to make a call to your local government office...


The airlines have fine print saying that airmiles have no value, but they have lost lawsuits where courts have determined that they obviously do have value.

Besides, even if you win such a battle, what exactly would that do to Turbine's reputation?

Time for Turbine to step up and act honest in its business practices, there is no reason for this behavior, just hold a 10% off sale if thats all the discount you want to give.

Robi3.0
09-17-2009, 06:03 PM
What would you consider a timely manner? It's now the 17th day I've had access to DDO:EU, and they still owe me 1399 points. Do you think that more than two weeks later is still within a "timely" sort of time frame?

I have no clue I am not a lawyer. What I have gathered from watching Judge Judy, tells me that a company/person/whatever gets time to make things right. :o I know Judge Judy isn't cool nor can it really be considered a knowledgeable legal authority.

Kruler
09-17-2009, 06:07 PM
You are not building any Coin Lord favor ....

Wyllie
09-17-2009, 06:12 PM
First let me say this; I would think it shady too if in fact Trubine is manipulating the pricing in a way that could be considerd "bait and switch"...


Which is exactly what I'm saying. The pricing scale isn't actually posted anywhere. There's no notification when prices change anywhere. There's no "log" of what prices were at any given point, other than player memory. Because of this, there is now a situation where it "appears" that things have been handled somewhat fraudulently.

^ Do you walk into a retail store and demand a log or some sort of notice of what prices changed that day? I could have sworn this gallon of milk was $2.98 the other day and now it's $3.28??? I call fraud!

Support Time frames could be from the fact that the server populations have somewhat blossomed while I doubt the support channels have grown as rapidly. Keep in mind that not all reports of time frames are accuate... I've worked in support and know that some people like to exaggerate the facts when it comes to how long they have been waiting and how much their time is worth.

Kistilan
09-17-2009, 06:22 PM
Upon reading, I agree this is disturbing business practice.

I certainly don't want a lawsuit against the game I play currently, BUT I think a huge apology is in order for misrepresentation of a sale. If you are only going to give us 13% of a sale, SAY SO (don't make a dishonest statement of 25% and then inflate the price to reduce the discount but make the appearance of 25%).

I'm not sure if "Fraud" is the term, but "Service Misrepresentation" is actionable. Many claims are made "to provide a certain perspective" and often these claims become actionable lawsuits by consumers. For instance, there is an electrical unit that claims upon insertion to an electrical outlet to lessen the power consumed by said outlet connections, which in turn would lessen the amount of electricity used by the house and generate lower consumption bills. It was found (and obvious to anyone with basic electric circuit understanding) that this was 100% false and misrepresented. The cost was $200 for a piece of equipment that did nothing and is now a class action suit.

Now, the TP is not being misrepresented -- we get TP for X dollars. That's established and legitimate. The claims of sale prices, however, is false representation, and therefore consumers are not receiving the exact benefits they believe they are purchasing.

It may be a video game, but it's thousands of people being led astray by manipulation of numbers. That is wrong.

EDIT: Huge Bags are at the proper price now. Maybe this was an honest mistake. Maybe.

smatt
09-17-2009, 06:24 PM
I have to wonder how a lawsuit alleging fraud brought by a large portion of your active customer base would affect your current litigation with Atari. I'd imagine it would give them some circumstantial evidence to back up their claim that you have shady business practices...



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Oh wait LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

And a little more LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I don't think there's anyting deceptive about the pricing at all... Maybe some mistakes/typos.... But a lawsuit???? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

As for allt he otehr unquotted stuff in your post... Ya Turbine SUCKS at making things clear, at ever perfroming any task in a clear and concise manner in fact. They almost never ever fixing anything in a timely manner that really makes sense to 99.9% of the people out there, or in fact is truly important to the players rahter than themselves. Bor representing a good portion of .1% BTW.... And to be honest their customer service in all regards is about as bad, and laxidasical as it could get most of the time.......

But oh well, still a pretty cool game...........

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 06:38 PM
smatt ... the whooshing sound you heard as you read my post was the point going over your head. I'm not threatening a lawsuit here. I'm attempting to get through to Turbine that right now is not the time to walk in the grey (maybe it's right, maybe it's not) areas. Right now is a really good time for them to adopt some "best practices" and walk the "straight and narrow" for awhile.



Keep in mind that not all reports of time frames are accuate... I've worked in support and know that some people like to exaggerate the facts when it comes to how long they have been waiting and how much their time is worth.


This is true. But it's not too much to ask for same day service. I'm on my 17th day without having received at the very least the 999 points. It's possible I did get the 400 vet points (but if I did, I didn't get some of my server first bonus points on Thelanis, so either way I'm missing some of what's owed). I'm not exaggerating the timeframe here. It's been 17 days now since DDO:EU went live ... and the 999 points still aren't in my account.

rolfharris
09-17-2009, 06:45 PM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Oh wait LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

And a little more LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I don't think there's anyting deceptive about the pricing at all... Maybe some mistakes/typos.... But a lawsuit???? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

As for allt he otehr unquotted stuff in your post... Ya Turbine SUCKS at making things clear, at ever perfroming any task in a clear and concise manner in fact. They almost never ever fixing anything in a timely manner that really makes sense to 99.9% of the people out there, or in fact is truly important to the players rahter than themselves. Bor representing a good portion of .1% BTW.... And to be honest their customer service in all regards is about as bad, and laxidasical as it could get most of the time.......

But oh well, still a pretty cool game...........

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/74/Lol_wut_completely.jpg

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 06:48 PM
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/74/Lol_wut_completely.jpg

Applied to your signature :-)

Wyllie
09-17-2009, 07:08 PM
It's been 17 days now since DDO:EU went live ... and the 999 points still aren't in my account.

Umm well Battlefield Heroes and EA/DICE has Turbine beat...

-------------------------------------
From: gps@ea.com (gps@ea.com)
You may not know this sender. Mark as safe|Mark as junk
Sent: Wed 9/16/09 1:26 PM
To: XXXXXXXX@hotmail.com (XXXXXXXX@hotmail.com)

Hello wyllie, [bulk of email here]...

Customer Relations Petition history: On 06-16-2009 you asked BFHeroes support [Issue Here]...
-------------------------------------

Note when I made the petition and when I got the email about the petition...

noneill
09-17-2009, 07:37 PM
FYI, I just went on the DDO store and huge collectible bags were 446 points. Listed as 595 regular price, 25% off sale for a sale price of 446.


One thing I noticed is the account history for DDO points only shows purchases when you use points, it doesn't show when you get points. Now I haven't actually bought points yet but it does not show a starting balance or any of the points coming in for being a long time player or show the points that I bought in beta or show the 500 points I should have gotten on 9/9 (my billing is the 9th but I am on the six month deal). When the game went live, I added all the points up and I did get everything I bought in beta and the favor points and all but the 7/31 999 vip longtime player points.
I had about 7000 and I spent a lot buying bags, quivers, loot potions etc so I kind of lost track and I am not sure if I ever got the 999 and then my 500 on my billing date but I don't think I did.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 07:42 PM
FYI, I just went on the DDO store and huge collectible bags were 446 points. Listed as 595 regular price, 25% off sale for a sale price of 446.


One thing I noticed is the account history for DDO points only shows purchases when you use points, it doesn't show when you get points. Now I haven't actually bought points yet but it does not show a starting balance or any of the points coming in for being a long time player or show the points that I bought in beta or show the 500 points I should have gotten on 9/9 (my billing is the 9th but I am on the six month deal). When the game went live, I added all the points up and I did get everything I bought in beta and the favor points and all but the 7/31 999 vip longtime player points.
I had about 7000 and I spent a lot buying bags, quivers, loot potions etc so I kind of lost track and I am not sure if I ever got the 999 and then my 500 on my billing date but I don't think I did.

Well firstly, if you're on the six month plan, then you would get 3000 on your bill date. You will not get any points until your bill date ... you won't get any points until the next time you are billed ... and at that time you will get 3000 ... so however many months you still had already paid for you just got screwed out of points. So if your six month billing cycle began on 31AUG2009 for example (That was my most recent billing date but I'm on a month to month plan), you would have been screwed out of 3000 points over the next six months simply because your bill date was one day before they started counting.

I have to imagine the amount of points lost to people who are partway through a pre-paid six month or 3 month or 12 month block right now and aren't going to get the points for whatever portion of months is left ... it must be a staggering number.

Nice eh?


Also, the bag price changed because they made them bound to a single character. The price would have to come down a significant amount more for me to ever consider them again. I'm glad I purchased one bag each on the two servers I play on before the nerf.

Kistilan
09-17-2009, 07:54 PM
FYI, I just went on the DDO store and huge collectible bags were 446 points. Listed as 595 regular price, 25% off sale for a sale price of 446.


So what the heck does THIS mean? I purchased a bag at 25% off of 695 on Tuesday. C'mon Turbine... Fix this.



Thanks for using the DDO Store!
Congratulations! We just added the items/services you ordered to your account!
This email is to confirm your purchase of Items at the DDO Store. Here are the details of your transaction.
Here are the details of your transaction.

Account Name: CS-******
Order Number: 001-693018-12789149
Receipt Date: Sep 14 2009 11:28 PM
Order Total: 521 Points
Summary of Items Purchased:
ITEMPRICEQUANTITYTOTAL PRICEHuge Collectibles Bag521.0 Points1521.0 Points
You can find your items in your character's inventory in game, and your account now has access to any services you purchased.
Check back often as we are adding new items frequently. To access the store, click the DDO Store icon on your toolbar in-game.
If you have any questions, please visit www.DDO.com (http://www.ddo.com/) for answers to Frequently Asked Questions, or additional resources. For questions regarding your DDO account, please sign into http://myaccount.turbine.com (http://myaccount.turbine.com/).
Thank you for your purchase!
The DDO Store Team

GreyRogue
09-17-2009, 08:21 PM
Well firstly, if you're on the six month plan, then you would get 3000 on your bill date. You will not get any points until your bill date ... you won't get any points until the next time you are billed ... and at that time you will get 3000

Pretty sure this isn't true. I'll look for the link and edit it back in if I find it, but I'm pretty sure that Tolero said that on a multi-month plan you get 500 per month, on the "anniversary" of your billing date, not a big chunk on your actual billing date.

EDIT: Here are the Tolero quotes:


In a situation where you are doing a long plan for VIP rather than a single month (like a 3 month, 6 month, etc VIP plan), it still happens month to month. If you were on a 6 month plan, it doesn't make you wait until all the way at the end of your entire 6 month plan to get your VIP monthly stipend points :)


Remember that the VIP monthly 500 points is based around the anniversary of your billing date, which can vary from person to person

Mockduck
09-17-2009, 08:24 PM
Pretty sure this isn't true. I'll look for the link and edit it back in if I find it, but I'm pretty sure that Tolero said that on a multi-month plan you get 500 per month, on the "anniversary" of your billing date, not a big chunk on your actual billing date.

I will be able to answer this one tomorrow at the very least! It's my billing date...

Newtons_Apple
09-17-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

But the turbine points can be derived from real money...

transtemporal
09-17-2009, 08:48 PM
Some of the more voracious fanboy's have already replied and tried to make me look ridiculous.

I think you're doing great on your own when you post stuff like this:


I have to wonder how a lawsuit alleging fraud brought by a large portion of your active customer base would affect your current litigation with Atari. I'd imagine it would give them some circumstantial evidence to back up their claim that you have shady business practices...

So far you seem to don't have enough evidence to bring anything against Turbine, much less a lawsuit. All I see are vague suggestions and moaning about not getting your points.

When you bring this suit, I suggest you present evidence that shows:

Turbine quoting you one price and charging another; e.g. quoting 521 in the shop checkout, then charging you 595 points for it
Advertising a normal price as a discount price; e.g. 595 as a sale price when the normal price is 595
Advertising a price that shows a larger discount than it actually is; e.g. 695 > 521, rather than 595 to 521


Then you've got a game! But until then you're just posturing.

Ulurjah
09-17-2009, 08:51 PM
I will be able to answer this one tomorrow at the very least! It's my billing date...

Well ... if I pay for six months in advance, they already have my money. Shouldn't I have my points the moment they have their money?



I think you're doing great on your own when you post stuff like this:



So far you seem to don't have enough evidence to bring anything against Turbine, much less a lawsuit. All I see are vague suggestions and moaning about not getting your points.

When you bring this suit, I suggest you present evidence that shows:

Turbine quoting you one price and charging another; e.g. quoting 521 in the shop checkout, then charging you 595 points for it
Advertising a normal price as a discount price; e.g. 595 as a sale price when the normal price is 595
Advertising a price that shows a larger discount than it actually is; e.g. 695 > 521, rather than 595 to 521


Then you've got a game! But until then you're just posturing.


When you finish catching up on the thread, let me know.

Mockduck
09-17-2009, 08:54 PM
Well ... if I pay for six months in advance, they already have my money. Shouldn't I have my points the moment they have their money?


Good point!

noneill
09-18-2009, 08:41 AM
Well firstly, if you're on the six month plan, then you would get 3000 on your bill date. You will not get any points until your bill date ... you won't get any points until the next time you are billed ... and at that time you will get 3000 ... so however many months you still had already paid for you just got screwed out of points. So if your six month billing cycle began on 31AUG2009 for example (That was my most recent billing date but I'm on a month to month plan), you would have been screwed out of 3000 points over the next six months simply because your bill date was one day before they started counting.

I have to imagine the amount of points lost to people who are partway through a pre-paid six month or 3 month or 12 month block right now and aren't going to get the points for whatever portion of months is left ... it must be a staggering number.

Nice eh?


Also, the bag price changed because they made them bound to a single character. The price would have to come down a significant amount more for me to ever consider them again. I'm glad I purchased one bag each on the two servers I play on before the nerf.

GreyRogue already quoted Tolero to answer you about the way points are paid for long term plans but since I asked her that exact question a while back and got an answer here is the link:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2374581&postcount=23


The gift points described in the table are seperate from the monthly VIP program points (but to put it in D&D terms, they are considered seperate bonuses and therefor stack :D).

Post Script: (Remember though that your monthly VIP program points will be based on your billing date, which can obviously vary from person to person).


That makes sense, when you pay your bill, you get the points. But how about those of us who six month subscriptions plans? For instance my renewal date is 12/9/09, will I get points on the 9th of every month? Not until I renew in December and then six months at once? Retroactive six months worth from my last renewal in June ?:rolleyes:


It's a little off topic from this thread, so those of you reading this who aren't participating in the VIP program in DDO Unlimited read no further, as this response is only pertaining to the above question buuut... to answer the question:

In a situation where you are doing a long plan for VIP rather than a single month (like a 3 month, 6 month, etc VIP plan), it still happens month to month. If you were on a 6 month plan, it doesn't make you wait until all the way at the end of your entire 6 month plan to get your VIP monthly stipend points :)

stalag131
09-18-2009, 08:55 AM
Wait - stores have been doing this for years!

I mean, they even have sales where the sale price is more expensive than the original price!

Radio shack was particularly bad at this. :)

smatt
09-18-2009, 09:25 AM
smatt ... the whooshing sound you heard as you read my post was the point going over your head. I'm not threatening a lawsuit here. I'm attempting to get through to Turbine that right now is not the time to walk in the grey (maybe it's right, maybe it's not) areas. Right now is a really good time for them to adopt some "best practices" and walk the "straight and narrow" for awhile.



This is true. But it's not too much to ask for same day service. I'm on my 17th day without having received at the very least the 999 points. It's possible I did get the 400 vet points (but if I did, I didn't get some of my server first bonus points on Thelanis, so either way I'm missing some of what's owed). I'm not exaggerating the timeframe here. It's been 17 days now since DDO:EU went live ... and the 999 points still aren't in my account.


Ya I get it.... I was over the top myself.... But even bringing the word lawsuit in makes people laugh, whether it's a serious statement or not is irrelevant. It creates the appearance of a screaming meemie, in other words, it causes people to to dismiss your entire post. I get what you're what you're saying. But afer havign paid attention to Turbine over the last almsot 3 years and the way this game is run, I doubt there's anything intentionally deceptive about the store. It looks more like laxidaisical over-sight to me. I mean heck, looking back how many times have they borked somethign so simple as posting in a consistant manner a scheduled downtime? Or even remember to TELL us about a scheduled downtime anywhere? I mean if you can't get that right... Well..... :D

I hate to bust on them, because they are people, but man..... Sometimes you have to wonder which Keystone cop is running the joint and which one is goign to the donut shop and how lost will the donut shop cop on the way there let alone on the way back, and will the cop running the joint even realise he got a lemon filled instead of the rasberry filled he really wanted..... :D


Most of the time depending on my mood I find it rather entertaining..... :p


Oh and BTW, I got my 500 points on my billing date.... As convaluted as they made allt he different point awards it doesn't suprise me that it's borked.... Nor does it suprise me that they can't seem to get it all straightened out.....

sirgog
09-18-2009, 10:06 AM
I'm not sure changing prices of in game virtual items would fall under fraud.

On another note, seeing as it is just virtual items and bought with virtual points not real money, as well as Turbine is the only one who can set the market price. Saying they jacked up the price only to put it on sale is really their discretion. Maybe they decided the original price was too low initially. After the sale is over then it returns to the higher price they set.

At least in Australia, these practices are a criminal offense, coming in as misleading and deceptive business practices. They attract pretty big fines for companies here.

Hafeal
09-18-2009, 10:50 AM
Wait - stores have been doing this for years!

I mean, they even have sales where the sale price is more expensive than the original price!

Radio shack was particularly bad at this. :)

When stores are caught doing it, they are subject to fines and other penalties by the attorney general's office in most states and possibly a private civil cause of action. Stores are not always caught doing it, of course. As for Radio Shack doing it, I would have my doubts as they are a national retailer; most national retailers don't bother with these games as they are fairly closely monitored by various consumer groups.

Hafeal
09-18-2009, 10:57 AM
I hear what you are saying. If anything, after 3 years myself, I can only conclude that Turbine continues with a track record of being less than forthright - with just about anything. This track record indicates something more pervasive than simple laziness or carelessness. In most instances they have a difficult time coming out about anything in-game being a mistake on their part and when they do, it is rarely timely and only after they have been called onto the carpet.


But afer havign paid attention to Turbine over the last almsot 3 years and the way this game is run, I doubt there's anything intentionally deceptive about the store. It looks more like laxidaisical over-sight to me. I mean heck, looking back how many times have they borked somethign so simple as posting in a consistant manner a scheduled downtime? Or even remember to TELL us about a scheduled downtime anywhere? I mean if you can't get that right... Well..... :D

I hate to bust on them, because they are people, but man..... Sometimes you have to wonder which Keystone cop is running the joint and which one is goign to the donut shop and how lost will the donut shop cop on the way there let alone on the way back, and will the cop running the joint even realise he got a lemon filled instead of the rasberry filled he really wanted..... :D


Most of the time depending on my mood I find it rather entertaining..... :p


Oh and BTW, I got my 500 points on my billing date.... As convaluted as they made allt he different point awards it doesn't suprise me that it's borked.... Nor does it suprise me that they can't seem to get it all straightened out.....

Tarrant
09-18-2009, 11:34 AM
Hi everyone,

We've been reading this thread, and wanted to clarify the pricing changes for huge bags that you've been seeing over the past few days.

Before Monday, huge bags were priced at 595 Turbine points and bound to account. This was a mistake as the bags were always meant to be bound to character. When we realized we were charging a bound to character price for a bound to account item, we raised the cost by 100 Turbine points (to 695) to better reflect the value of the item you were buying. This coincided with a sale we were having on bags which brought the price down to 521 points, and with the wisdom of hindsight we acknowledge this may have appeared deceptive. For that we apologize. With yesterday's patch and the fix to huge bags, we were able to bring the base price back down to 595 turbine points, which was our intention all along.

Had we told you in advance that the change was coming to the bags (and so the reason for the price increase), it would have been akin to letting you know about an exploit before it was fixed. For obvious reasons we decided not to retroactively change the bag that some of you had already purchased, but the bag you see in the store now was always the intended product.

I hope this explains everything for you. And as always, thank you for your feedback!

Hokiewa
09-18-2009, 12:12 PM
Hi everyone,

We've been reading this thread, and wanted to clarify the pricing changes for huge bags that you've been seeing over the past few days.

Before Monday, huge bags were priced at 595 Turbine points and bound to account. This was a mistake as the bags were always meant to be bound to character. When we realized we were charging a bound to character price for a bound to account item, we raised the cost by 100 Turbine points (to 695) to better reflect the value of the item you were buying. This coincided with a sale we were having on bags which brought the price down to 521 points, and with the wisdom of hindsight we acknowledge this may have appeared deceptive. For that we apologize. With yesterday's patch and the fix to huge bags, we were able to bring the base price back down to 595 turbine points, which was our intention all along.

Had we told you in advance that the change was coming to the bags (and so the reason for the price increase), it would have been akin to letting you know about an exploit before it was fixed. For obvious reasons we decided not to retroactively change the bag that some of you had already purchased, but the bag you see in the store now was always the intended product.

I hope this explains everything for you. And as always, thank you for your feedback!

lmao, that's exactly the explanation I would've come up with.......So if 100 pts is the deciding factor btw a bound to toon and a bound to account bag, sorry that doesn't make sense...Fair enough, though you likely will never sell "huge" bags again...

Hafeal
09-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Well, now I know my threads do get ignored. Thanks for the belated apology. I have not gone through every item (yet) to figure out if this happened elsewhere but I would be curious to know if you can be upfront about this happening with other items. Also, you were able to change the price of the goods as well as the description without a patch. But to change the item, you have to wait for the patch?

I guess what I find disappointing is the lack of communication as you explained. I am still a little fuzzy:


Had we told you in advance that the change was coming to the bags (and so the reason for the price increase), it would have been akin to letting you know about an exploit before it was fixed. For obvious reasons we decided not to retroactively change the bag that some of you had already purchased, but the bag you see in the store now was always the intended product.

I find it difficult to view huge bags and their function to be an exploit of any kind. If you are saying that their function could be exploited, great, I would understand. But, in fact, people who bought bags bound to account are able to keep that feature, no?

Aren't you really saying that you wanted to prevent a run on huge bags if you announced the change? And Turbine, in an effort to capitalize on the popularity of the bags just decided to lie in the weeds hoping people would just not notice? I mean it took several threads to get this response and before your post there was no formal explanation, just a blurb in the release notes about the intended change.

Geez, where is the common sense? And the kicker is that the bags are really far from worth the price unless they are bound to account. Thus, I would hazard a guess that bag sales will drop from initial sales and be a low volume seller. If I am wrong, lunch on me Tarrant.

Lastly, I have requested a formal mechanism to post individual item prices in-game and on the DDO forums (or in the compendium) and then announce updates, not just sales. Any chance this is something that Turbine is willing to do?

Tolero
09-18-2009, 01:20 PM
I find it difficult to view huge bags and their function to be an exploit of any kind. If you are saying that their function could be exploited, great, I would understand. But, in fact, people who bought bags bound to account are able to keep that feature, no?


The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

sephiroth1084
09-18-2009, 01:29 PM
The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

A little bit of integrity maintenance vs. greed? I think you guys made the right call, despite how unsavory a taste it may leave in many players' mouths. Bravo! I hope that, going forward, you guys continue making your decisions in this fashion (well, not the roundabout/confusing/apparently deceptive way, but the way of integrity)! Bravo.

dopey69
09-18-2009, 01:36 PM
The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

or did you think that if you bind them to character we would have to buy several per acct. rather than one!? mmm sounds about right to me spin doctor

Valiance
09-18-2009, 01:54 PM
The bags were not an exploit in the "ah ha if I do something shady with them" sense, but in the "oh shoot these weren't supposed to work like that" sense. When we realized the item error, we had a tricky choice to make: on one hand acting one way would result in a boost of sales, on the other doing that went against our normal policies around game errors by doing so. We opted to stick with our normal practices rather than spiking sales on an erroneous item.

Lol give me a break. Exploit ya right. How bout more like exploit in the "if we change these to bound on account we can exploit the player base into buying one for every character!" If that's what you meant then I'm buying that there was definitely an exploit going on.

v

KoboldKiller
09-18-2009, 01:56 PM
Lol give me a break. Exploit ya right. How bout more like exploit in the "if we change these to bound on account we can exploit the player base into buying one for every character!" If that's what you meant then I'm buying that there was definitely an exploit going on.

v

You don't HAVE to buy them.

smatt
09-18-2009, 02:03 PM
or did you think that if you bind them to character we would have to buy several per acct. rather than one!? mmm sounds about right to me spin doctor


No they didn't think that... They KNEW that..... And so it is.... Like I said before I'm really suprised that anything in the store is bind to account as oppossed to bind to toon..... Not saying I like it being on the customer side, but if I were them...... And I wanted to run a business in a profitable way, that would be the way I'd attempt to do it.... Sometimes people seem to forget that not onyl is this a game, it's a business....

Kistilan
09-18-2009, 02:42 PM
That's a great story...

But boosting the price on the "value" of a mistake is a dishonest move too. You didn't let anyone know about the added value, yet boosted the price because of the added value? No, that only works if you advertise the item as being more-than-average ie premium. The item was inflated in price without telling the player base why.

In this particular instance I'm going to assume the worst, not the best, because it was not done transparently. Had you made an announcement that "Huge Bags have inflated in price because they are currently more valuable than anticipated," everyone would have ho-hummed and thought about it. Even a "Temporary Value Increase" post would have clued players in without stating, "Yeah we're going to remove that bind-to-account feature." Hiding all of the operations behind the bag's situation was not transparent.

I also conclude that most VIPs will not be purchasing your Huge bags anymore as we can do better with Medium/Large Bags that can be shared.

PS: Please don't make those bind -- it would only make the Huge Bag issue an absolute deception.

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-18-2009, 03:46 PM
I was one of the lucky ones, and realized early how good a Huge Bag was, when BtA.

It breaks several things.. including the fact that BtC items that can go into a bag, now can go in the Shared Bank, and move across characters...

Think about the things that might be BtC that go in Huge Ingredient Bags....

And you will see why they had to get rid of BtA Huge Bags, as long as the Shared Bank exists.

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-18-2009, 03:52 PM
That's a great story...

But boosting the price on the "value" of a mistake is a dishonest move too.

Sorry to disagree... but that' business.
If you don't have anything in writing that makes you publish price changes, then you can change them, in any direction, at any time. Does this suck for the consumer, yes, but that's the way things work.


You didn't let anyone know about the added value, yet boosted the price because of the added value? No, that only works if you advertise the item as being more-than-average ie premium. The item was inflated in price without telling the player base why.

Again, there is no valid BUSINESS reason to do so.
If they did, then they announce a potential 'exploit'... and then are forced to retro-change BtA bags to BtC, thus ****ing everyone off... or they stay quiet, and leave the others alone.

Supply and Demand... that's what it is all about.

Nowhere in the TOS or the announcements about F2P or the TP Store did it EVER say that prices can't/won't change.

Hell, given your reasoning here, I should be complaining that I bought a +1 Longsword last Friday and it wasn't on sale, but this Friday it is... and I want my 25% back?!?!



In this particular instance I'm going to assume the worst, not the best, because it was not done transparently. Had you made an announcement that "Huge Bags have inflated in price because they are currently more valuable than anticipated," everyone would have ho-hummed and thought about it. Even a "Temporary Value Increase" post would have clued players in without stating, "Yeah we're going to remove that bind-to-account feature." Hiding all of the operations behind the bag's situation was not transparent.

I also conclude that most VIPs will not be purchasing your Huge bags anymore as we can do better with Medium/Large Bags that can be shared.

PS: Please don't make those bind -- it would only make the Huge Bag issue an absolute deception.

I think you misse the point... NONE of the Bags were supposed to be BtA. They are ALL meant to be BtC. Even a small BtA bag breaks things.

And are you really whining about a few TP's, when you got them for free anyways?!?

And are you really whining because you didn't look carefully before you bought something?

:confused:

Lifespawn
09-18-2009, 04:01 PM
Sorry to disagree... but that' business.
If you don't have anything in writing that makes you publish price changes, then you can change them, in any direction, at any time. Does this suck for the consumer, yes, but that's the way things work.



Again, there is no valid BUSINESS reason to do so.
If they did, then they announce a potential 'exploit'... and then are forced to retro-change BtA bags to BtC, thus ****ing everyone off... or they stay quiet, and leave the others alone.

Supply and Demand... that's what it is all about.

Nowhere in the TOS or the announcements about F2P or the TP Store did it EVER say that prices can't/won't change.

Hell, given your reasoning here, I should be complaining that I bought a +1 Longsword last Friday and it wasn't on sale, but this Friday it is... and I want my 25% back?!?!



I think you misse the point... NONE of the Bags were supposed to be BtA. They are ALL meant to be BtC. Even a small BtA bag breaks things.

And are you really whining about a few TP's, when you got them for free anyways?!?

And are you really whining because you didn't look carefully before you bought something?

:confused:

this all from a guy that got one of the broken bags and can still use them make them all bta or make them all btc and announce when it will happen giving those players the chance to put them on who they want.

If it's exploitable because of the shared bank then the people that bought them and were not retro fixed have a distinct advantage and thats not cool with me.

adamkatt
09-18-2009, 04:39 PM
Hi everyone,

We've been reading this thread, and wanted to clarify the pricing changes for huge bags that you've been seeing over the past few days.

Before Monday, huge bags were priced at 595 Turbine points and bound to account. This was a mistake as the bags were always meant to be bound to character. When we realized we were charging a bound to character price for a bound to account item, we raised the cost by 100 Turbine points (to 695) to better reflect the value of the item you were buying. This coincided with a sale we were having on bags which brought the price down to 521 points, and with the wisdom of hindsight we acknowledge this may have appeared deceptive. For that we apologize. With yesterday's patch and the fix to huge bags, we were able to bring the base price back down to 595 turbine points, which was our intention all along.

Had we told you in advance that the change was coming to the bags (and so the reason for the price increase), it would have been akin to letting you know about an exploit before it was fixed. For obvious reasons we decided not to retroactively change the bag that some of you had already purchased, but the bag you see in the store now was always the intended product.

I hope this explains everything for you. And as always, thank you for your feedback!

Its good to hear ease of having and moving around lots of collactables in a bag is considered an exploit...

Kistilan
09-18-2009, 05:07 PM
Sorry to disagree... but that' business.
If you don't have anything in writing that makes you publish price changes, then you can change them, in any direction, at any time. Does this suck for the consumer, yes, but that's the way things work.



Again, there is no valid BUSINESS reason to do so.
If they did, then they announce a potential 'exploit'... and then are forced to retro-change BtA bags to BtC, thus ****ing everyone off... or they stay quiet, and leave the others alone.

Supply and Demand... that's what it is all about.

Nowhere in the TOS or the announcements about F2P or the TP Store did it EVER say that prices can't/won't change.

Hell, given your reasoning here, I should be complaining that I bought a +1 Longsword last Friday and it wasn't on sale, but this Friday it is... and I want my 25% back?!?!



I think you misse the point... NONE of the Bags were supposed to be BtA. They are ALL meant to be BtC. Even a small BtA bag breaks things.

And are you really whining about a few TP's, when you got them for free anyways?!?

And are you really whining because you didn't look carefully before you bought something?

:confused:

You're not making a lot of sense to me.

I have those BtA bags. I'm disappointed (and a little shocked) by the lack of transparency with Turbine in this matter. It's much akin to renegotiating on promises. If this was a break, they should have announced it. Because they didn't want everyone buying the BtA bags, they didn't announce it (and raised the price).

The problem is there are too many conspiracy theories because of how they handled this. Did they really raise the price because of the added unintentional benefit? Or were they trying to make a quick buck and then realized later they could make more if they made the bags BtC (or so they thought). They've just cut their profits.

If it was an exploit with the USE of the bag as a BtA item, then why are we (myself included) allowed to keep these bags as-is?

I totally understand it was a "mistake" with the BtC label & BtA effect, but they didn't do the MOST SENSIBLE thing (which Turbine has done in the past) and temporarily REMOVE the item (much like turning the Shroud off). Instead, they quietly raised the price and now that we've voiced our opinions they have offered a story on why the price was raised. The story sounds reasonable because they also made the bags BtC, but the story can easily be convenient truths covering a disparaging practice.

So, while you may think it's legitimate, it was less-than-savvy on how it was handled. Turning off the bags and refunding the previously-purchased would have been the correct method. Instead, they wanted money.

Hafeal
09-18-2009, 06:08 PM
Amen.


You're not making a lot of sense to me.

I have those BtA bags. I'm disappointed (and a little shocked) by the lack of transparency with Turbine in this matter. It's much akin to renegotiating on promises. If this was a break, they should have announced it. Because they didn't want everyone buying the BtA bags, they didn't announce it (and raised the price).

The problem is there are too many conspiracy theories because of how they handled this. Did they really raise the price because of the added unintentional benefit? Or were they trying to make a quick buck and then realized later they could make more if they made the bags BtC (or so they thought). They've just cut their profits.

If it was an exploit with the USE of the bag as a BtA item, then why are we (myself included) allowed to keep these bags as-is?

I totally understand it was a "mistake" with the BtC label & BtA effect, but they didn't do the MOST SENSIBLE thing (which Turbine has done in the past) and temporarily REMOVE the item (much like turning the Shroud off). Instead, they quietly raised the price and now that we've voiced our opinions they have offered a story on why the price was raised. The story sounds reasonable because they also made the bags BtC, but the story can easily be convenient truths covering a disparaging practice.

So, while you may think it's legitimate, it was less-than-savvy on how it was handled. Turning off the bags and refunding the previously-purchased would have been the correct method. Instead, they wanted money.

Riggs
09-19-2009, 01:35 AM
As someone said, spending cash/TP on 'bind to character' consumables is one thing - you reroll you lose the items.

But something that costs a lot of real cash, and is only valuable on an account wide basis - people are willing to spend cash to make managing the massive amount of collectables from many characters manageable, but probbaly few to none will spend that for a single character, esp if you are not 1005 sure you will NEVER reroll that guy EVER. Which given the constant class nurfing every other mod is far from guarenteed.

There are way too many collectables and inventory **** to gather for stuff as it is, and small/medium bags are next to useless because they overfill by level 5 pretty much, then your stuck constantly stopping to mail **** or dump inventory in the middle of a quest because you cant loot anymore.

People were obviously very happy to spend on a bind to account 'inventory management tool' - that would be far less useful as it is now, hence not worth buying.

What option would make more money and make more people happy at the same time? Not what the patch did...

Paxtor
09-20-2009, 10:46 AM
Before Monday, huge bags were priced at 595 Turbine points and bound to account. This was a mistake as the bags were always meant to be bound to character. When we realized we were charging a bound to character price for a bound to account item, we raised the cost by 100 Turbine points (to 695) to better reflect the value of the item you were buying.

So the item was intended to be bind on character, not bind on account. The correction to this was the change the price (not how it was bound obviously). The difference between a bind on character and bind on account item's value is about 100 points(?). So, instead of correcting the issue and making the item bind on character (as per original intent)... a change was made to increase it's cost by 100 points (simultaneously with a sale that happened to bring it back down to its original value).

Cool story, bro.