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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:05 AM
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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:06 AM
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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:06 AM
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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:07 AM
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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:07 AM
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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:08 AM
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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:09 AM
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Aranticus
09-06-2009, 07:09 AM
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Borror0
09-06-2009, 07:12 AM
reserved


reserved


asdfsfdgf


sfdfgsf


asdasffs


asfsfsdf


adasffd


atgdga
asdfsfdgf, sfdfgsf, asdasffs, asfsfsdf, adasffd and atgdga - because copy-pasting "reserved" is just too complicated. ;)

silverraven
09-06-2009, 07:55 AM
...well that's all flaggle-swallop...How can you even say things like that and not get banned? Pfft

Aranticus
09-06-2009, 08:43 AM
asdfsfdgf, sfdfgsf, asdasffs, asfsfsdf, adasffd and atgdga - because copy-pasting "reserved" is just too complicated. ;)

nope because of the 5 min duplicate rule

Riorik
09-06-2009, 11:32 AM
Looks like its shaping up to be a good analysis, so far. I appreciate especially that it really seems to not be going in the direction of maximum DPS or optimization in one direction. Gear and playing skill can compensate for (too much) optimization, but it doesn't really replace a character that's built for multiple roles.

Artis_Resistance
09-06-2009, 02:29 PM
This thread is looking promising.

Aranticus
09-07-2009, 11:29 AM
updated topics on role and races. feedback is welcomed :)

kamimitsu
09-07-2009, 11:36 AM
updated topics on role and races. feedback is welcomed :)

I noticed that Paladin didn't make it on any of the 'good for' race list. I suppose that's because any race can make a decent paladin? And that paladins come in quite a variety of flavors? Just curious.

Aranticus
09-07-2009, 11:48 AM
I noticed that Paladin didn't make it on any of the 'good for' race list. I suppose that's because any race can make a decent paladin? And that paladins come in quite a variety of flavors? Just curious.

added it to drow, must have missed it

KelWayne
09-07-2009, 11:51 AM
added it to drow, must have missed it

And human you had... (Good for: Everything!)

Strakeln
09-07-2009, 11:53 AM
I was expecting something of the following:

1) One part Gimp
2) Two parts "50 DKP MINUS"
3) Class selection based on one-handed playability

:D:p

Artis_Resistance
09-07-2009, 09:32 PM
One-handed, Strakeln? Really? Do you like this game THAT much?

Vyctor
09-07-2009, 09:47 PM
Were the Halfling luck enhancement done away with? If not, halflings can increase there own saves too.

Aranticus
09-07-2009, 10:10 PM
One-handed, Strakeln? Really? Do you like this game THAT much?

more importantly, its what he is doing with the other hand.... ;)


sorry folks, i digress, updating it still

Artis_Resistance
09-07-2009, 10:13 PM
^ Precisely.

Aranticus
09-08-2009, 02:40 AM
Were the Halfling luck enhancement done away with? If not, halflings can increase there own saves too.

i meant to say "not only able to". thanks for pointing it out

Strakeln
09-08-2009, 10:32 AM
One-handed, Strakeln? Really? Do you like this game THAT much?
Context, my friend, context.

See previous thread started by OP... (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=197178)

Aranticus
09-09-2009, 09:33 AM
updated on ability scores

krytoxin
09-09-2009, 10:47 PM
Monks?

Aranticus
09-09-2009, 11:43 PM
Monks?

what about monks?

krytoxin
09-10-2009, 06:25 PM
Not on any of the preferred classes for races.

Aranticus
09-10-2009, 09:17 PM
Not on any of the preferred classes for races.

there isnt really a race for monks as there are so many ways to build monks. in general i see monks being restricted to humans, warforged, dwarves and halflings

Aranticus
09-11-2009, 10:24 PM
need help with monk and favored soul descriptions as i do not have much experience with them

Aranticus
09-13-2009, 10:23 AM
feats are done but will require help from monk players on the effectiveness of monk feats.

Aranticus
09-16-2009, 04:47 AM
skills are done :)

rsgeiger
09-17-2009, 11:42 AM
great thread! helps me allot with my builds!

Aranticus
10-20-2009, 03:19 AM
got busy in RL. will continue to finish it

Thornfeld
10-20-2009, 03:57 AM
got busy in RL. will continue to finish it

Pfft need to get busy in game and run some raids already :p

Aranticus
10-20-2009, 04:05 AM
Pfft need to get busy in game and run some raids already :p

ok i'll run some for you to steal, esp now u have a mic!

ps: +1 rep

mediocresurgeon
10-23-2009, 03:33 PM
I like what I see here! New Players' Guide to Multiclassing is now linked to your guide. Thanks for the linkback on your Classes section.

+1 rep

Aranticus
10-24-2009, 02:21 AM
I like what I see here! New Players' Guide to Multiclassing is now linked to your guide. Thanks for the linkback on your Classes section.

+1 rep

u got FvS and monk stuff? i need to fill out those sections

sirdanile
10-24-2009, 03:23 AM
ok first of all, my credentials (sort of up to date... i'm actually level 17 o.0)
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/skyfe/

OVERVIEW:

Monks are either splashed 1 level for wisdom to ac, 2 levels for evasion and 2 feats, or (generally) taken all the way to level 20 pure.

The monk is difficult for a beginner to effectively use because of the gear requirements as well as suffering from a serious case of MAD (Multi-ability dependancy, like the paladin) but if pulled off successfully they gain a high spell resistance, (30 or 31) immunity to disease and poison, as well as the highest base damage possible for any weapon type, dr 10/epic, and perfect featherfall, a monk consolidates a lot of items into class abilities but makes up for that because of the special gear you will want. (armor bracers, strength, dex, con, wis items, 30% striders, good robes or outfits, handwraps and kamas) Keep in mind that monks need to use items they are proficient with to be considered "balanced" to be able to use the vast majority of their abilities.

Also keep in mind that unarmed fighting (handwraps) benefits from the two weapon fighting line of feats as well as being able to use your dex modifier for to-hit if you take weapon finesse, which makes it easy to gain a good armor class on a monk in later levels with the right gear, at lower levels monks seem to be like a sword and board fighter with 2hf type armor class.


RACES:

Halfling monks can start with a higher base dex, higher base AC, and sneak attack damage via halfling racial enhancements.

Dwarf monks can be either str or dex based because cha is a dumpstat for monks and con is useful for any build, they also waddle while running at high speeds, The dwarf has more flexibility over halflings but generally has a lower armor class.

Warforged monks are huge metal behemoths that do not benefit from the fist of light path nearly as much as a fleshling race will but they can get some benefit by taking all the warforged and monk healing enhancements, many warforged immunitys do not stack with immunities monks gain by leveling naturally.

Human monks are even more generalists than dwarves because of the extra feat and skill points, a human monk can afford to max several skills (important ones being jump, concentration, balance, maybe tumble)

Drow monks and elf monks, while starting out with higher dex they start with lower con and are not a small race, making these sup par to halflings.

ENHANCEMENT PATHS:

Lets start with the elemental stances a monk can spend action points on.

Air: increases attack speed and dex but lowers con
Many players prefer this one because increase in attack speed is an increase to dps qual to how much faster you attack.

Fire:+ strength - wisdom, extra ki generated on hits.
Players tend to only use this one at lower levels, but sooner or later you will not need the extra ki generation and the boost to str is only useful for opening doors or pulling levers.

Water: +wisdom - str, increases saves by a generous amount, most players upgrade this to tier 2 or 3 for the times they have to run through a particularly nasty trap and dont want to risk rolling that 3 and getting flattened.

Earth: + con - dex, while some ulticlass intimimonk builds may use this, the extra con is generally not as useful as an increase to damage output and the damage reduction granted does not stack with the monks level 20 epic damage reduction, the movement speed decrease while not really a loss is a pain to cope with in higher tiers.

ANIMAL PATHS:

generally there are 3 schools of thought to picking these animal paths.

Tortoise: more hp and concentration, a good choice all around and useful in every situation.

Crane: losing fortitude saves is not really that big a deal on monk and the extra ki gained on criticals can be vital to keeping up a flow of elemental strikes.

Monkey: increses haggle and gives energy resistance 2 per tier that stacks with buffs, this has saved my monk many a time from a painful acid arrow/cloud/burning blood and other annoying damage over time spells, he is also richer due to having 4 more haggle but that is a small benefit.


FIST OF LIGHT OR DARK

Light: helps the group, gives stackable buff finishers and a group heal as well as a heal shield, good for non warforged soloists (self healing) and retains a good use in group

Dark: this path debuffs the enemies, which makes this noticeably less useful on bosses, also some finishers actually put the monk at a disadvantage (falling star strike, you auto crit the enemy but you are autocrit if hit.) This path is generallyu regarded as weaker than light but there have beenhintings from the developers that they are looking into buffing it.



MONK SPECIFIC FEATS:

Stunning fist: while weighted does not affect this ability (yet) it is still very useful, you can only use it with handwraps and you can use both stunning blow and stunning fist to chain stuns on multiple enemies, this is an excellant feat choice.

Deflect arrows: Relatively useful, but on a semi-cooldown, it will stop an entire rangers manyshot in pvp but it will only stop one of an enemies mobs arrows, and enemy mobs fire faster than players.


I hope you found this breakdown useful :D

Aranticus
10-24-2009, 10:44 AM
good stuff, i'll take some time to digest it thou. keep the info coming folks!

William_the_Bat
10-24-2009, 12:21 PM
I strongly believe that recommending a paladin start at 12 CHA is just plain bad advice. A paladin lives or dies by his buffs, and the divine might buff is one of the best. More CHA lets the paladin not only take higher levels of divine might, but gives more turn undead attempts to use to activate the buff.

A starting CHA of 16 will allow DM II at level 10, DM III with a +2 tome by level 15, and the possibility of DM IV at level 20 with a +4 tome. I think most people will agree that +8 damage per hit (more on crits, that's 40 points on an exalted smite III khopesh critical) is worth building toward.

Of course, some pally builds are meant to do nothing but intimidate and turtle up, but the fact that intimidate is a cross-class skill and the defender of siberys's emphasis on hate-tanking make doing more damage invaluable even for people who do not want to be useful in non-tanking situations.

Oh yes, the additional bonuses to saves, lay on hands, and making darn good and sure your smites land are all good things.

Paladins are hard to do right, due, among other things, to the number of attributes that can not be neglected, but I'd put cha right behind str (dex for finesse builds) in importance for a paladin.

Aranticus
10-24-2009, 08:47 PM
I strongly believe that recommending a paladin start at 12 CHA is just plain bad advice.

you might want to re-read it again. i recommened paladin splashes ie builds with 2 or 3 levels of paladin 10-12 cha not builds where paladins are the main classes. for a paladin splash, a higher cha is not needed as they will not be using smites alot since it will be weak and do not have access to the higher tier divine might enhancements

edit: my recommendation is 15 cha, this is based on mod 8 where there are no +4 tomes and a starting cha of 17 meant a very high stat investment

Aranticus
10-28-2009, 09:10 AM
anyone got FvS description? thanks in advance if you are willing to share your insights

Aranticus
11-03-2009, 03:58 AM
classes almost completed but still need more information on monks and favored souls

mediocresurgeon
11-07-2009, 03:12 PM
classes almost completed but still need more information on monks and favored souls

Wish I could help, but I haven't tried Monks since they started releasing new equipment and changing stances. (And since True Reincarnate isn't out yet, I haven't been able to reroll my cleric as a Fvs.)

Kleetuss
11-09-2009, 02:23 AM
Just wanted to say thank you for writing all these "newb guides". I am new to DDO, I have played several other RPG games but never D&D. So needless to say I am/was a little lost about character creation since it is a little different in terms of D&D. After reading several of your guides I now think I know what I am doing a little better, especially when it comes to character creation and skillsets. I think you have saved me alot of time in the future since I would have most likely made a horrible character and would have had to change or even start over later on down the road... So anyways just wanted to say Thanks !!

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 05:27 AM
I have a question.

Perhaps it's just me, but I couldn't help but think that BullHeaded is a mistake in your feat listing.

Iron Will is usually much better. The difference is 1 Will Saves for 2 Intimidate Skill points. Personally, I don't think that 2 skill points is a good deal at the expense of 1 saves, unless you are using a strong Physical build that does not have Intimidate as a class skill, like a Paladin.

I personally think that Luck of Heroes is also a good choice as well, particulary for builds that don't focus on Wis and Dex, and have low saves. The total gain is 3 saves at that.

You didn't list down Great Fortitude. Probably because most toons would have high CON. But it's still something worth considering.

Please tell me, is my reasoning sound? I really think you should remove BullHeaded, and put Great Fortitude instead.

Aranticus
11-13-2009, 06:09 AM
I have a question.

Perhaps it's just me, but I couldn't help but think that BullHeaded is a mistake in your feat listing.

Iron Will is usually much better. The difference is 1 Will Saves for 2 Intimidate Skill points. Personally, I don't think that 2 skill points is a good deal at the expense of 1 saves, unless you are using a strong Physical build that does not have Intimidate as a class skill, like a Paladin.

I personally think that Luck of Heroes is also a good choice as well, particulary for builds that don't focus on Wis and Dex, and have low saves. The total gain is 3 saves at that.

You didn't list down Great Fortitude. Probably because most toons would have high CON. But it's still something worth considering.

Please tell me, is my reasoning sound? I really think you should remove BullHeaded, and put Great Fortitude instead.

bullheaded is an important feat if you are building an intimitank especially if you want to intimidate raid bosses. this feat is perfect for fighter based intimitanks as the will save for fighters are low

as to luck of heroes, it actually boosts the 2 saves, the last one has marginal benefits. for example, a fighter has good fort saves, the +1 to fort doesnt help it, so in effect you only get a +1 to reflex and to will

for great fortitude, apart from the feat heavy classes like fighter, monk and wizard, the rest of the classes are not going to spend a feat on it. for fighters and monk, they have high fort saves and thus dun need it. for wizards, the only real threat is disintegrate and flesh to stone. most disintegrate do about 200 on a failed save (you can survive it) and flesh to stone doesnt kill, so there is less importance. and if you are wf, great fortitude will be the last feat you want

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 06:21 AM
bullheaded is an important feat if you are building an intimitank especially if you want to intimidate raid bosses. this feat is perfect for fighter based intimitanks as the will save for fighters are low


But that's precisely my point. They need that will save. Which is why Iron Will is better. A +2 to Intimidate, is seriously a VERY BAD gain compared to another point of Will Save. Fighters and Barbarians can easily get high points into Intimidate.

That being said, Bullheaded should be deemed useless, while Iron Will invaluable.

Aranticus
11-13-2009, 07:59 AM
But that's precisely my point. They need that will save. Which is why Iron Will is better. A +2 to Intimidate, is seriously a VERY BAD gain compared to another point of Will Save. Fighters and Barbarians can easily get high points into Intimidate.

That being said, Bullheaded should be deemed useless, while Iron Will invaluable.

you misunderstood, a fighter will take iron will, sf intimidate AND bullheaded. a barb will not take bullheaded unless its going the intim route. the +2 intimidate from bullheaded is very important for builds that are going to dump their charisma. that is an equivated of a +4 to cha

mechgouki
11-13-2009, 08:07 AM
Oh, I think I get it now.

mechgouki
11-14-2009, 06:07 AM
I still think you should put Great Fortitude, even as an option for the Wizard. (What else does the wizard need anyway? He's got all the metamagic, and even have space for Dodge etc.)

You can survive on 200 damage alone, yes. But just like how you can survive a Hold Person ALONE. That single effect not killing you doesn't mean that what follows after won't.

Please put Great Fortitude in the list. At the very least, write it such that only Bards and Wiz who have extra feats should consider it if they have nothing more beneficial to consider.

Aranticus
11-14-2009, 09:13 AM
I still think you should put Great Fortitude, even as an option for the Wizard. (What else does the wizard need anyway? He's got all the metamagic, and even have space for Dodge etc.)

You can survive on 200 damage alone, yes. But just like how you can survive a Hold Person ALONE. That single effect not killing you doesn't mean that what follows after won't.

Please put Great Fortitude in the list. At the very least, write it such that only Bards and Wiz who have extra feats should consider it if they have nothing more beneficial to consider.

bard has 7 feats, great fortitude will be 1 of the last to take

a wiz has 5 metas, 7 regular feats. max, emp, heighten, extend, quicken and enlarge are what most wiz will take. thats 6 feats gone. lightning reflexes and toughness, spell pen and greater spell pen for 4 more feats. there are 2 left. there are better feats to take than great fortitude

mechgouki
11-14-2009, 10:51 AM
Perhaps there are better feats. But that doesn't mean Great Fortitude is useless, and it should still deserve a mention somewhere.

As far as I recall, you declared that any feat not listed in your list is totally useless, am I right? I'm pretty sure Great Fortitude is not among those. Could you at least mention it as something to take only if you have spare feats?

And as I mentioned, just because things like Flesh To Stone doesn't kill you outright, doesn't mean it's not dangerous, and worth protecting against. Stuff like Hold Person doesn't kill you itself, but that doesn't mean it's not worth protecting against.

Why is this important to me? It's because you declared here that anything not on your list is totally useless.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=213346

I REALLY WANT TO AGREE WITH YOU. But I can't. Not when you couldn't even give Great Fortitude a mention. Notice that the effect isn't really too different from Iron Will etc? Just that it affects fortitude. Can you at least mention it, seeing how the effect is similar to Iron Will, but list out the disadvantages this feat face compared to other Saves feat, and then let the reader decide for him/herself if this feat is worth the sacrifice of another feat?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the Wizard would be affected by Toughness as much as the other classes. Toughness affects most other classes more than those like Wizard.

Aranticus
11-14-2009, 07:52 PM
Perhaps there are better feats. But that doesn't mean Great Fortitude is useless, and it should still deserve a mention somewhere.

As far as I recall, you declared that any feat not listed in your list is totally useless, am I right? I'm pretty sure Great Fortitude is not among those. Could you at least mention it as something to take only if you have spare feats?

And as I mentioned, just because things like Flesh To Stone doesn't kill you outright, doesn't mean it's not dangerous, and worth protecting against. Stuff like Hold Person doesn't kill you itself, but that doesn't mean it's not worth protecting against.

Why is this important to me? It's because you declared here that anything not on your list is totally useless.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=213346

I REALLY WANT TO AGREE WITH YOU. But I can't. Not when you couldn't even give Great Fortitude a mention. Notice that the effect isn't really too different from Iron Will etc? Just that it affects fortitude. Can you at least mention it, seeing how the effect is similar to Iron Will, but list out the disadvantages this feat face compared to other Saves feat, and then let the reader decide for him/herself if this feat is worth the sacrifice of another feat?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the Wizard would be affected by Toughness as much as the other classes. Toughness affects most other classes more than those like Wizard.

if there are feats that are more important, it means you are not going to take great fortitude and hence useless since it is not going to be used at all. iron will is a different story because fighters will take iron will as they have way too many feats to spare. a L20 fighter has 18 feats. thats 6 more compared to a wizard. just look through the wizard build forums, tell me how many wizards take great fortitude

toughness, not important is just as good as saying one should dump constitution. just taking a toughness feat will give you the potential of 40 hp. on a 14 con caster, with toughness you can hit 300-350 hp. 40 hp is very significant

mechgouki
11-14-2009, 11:51 PM
toughness, not important is just as good as saying one should dump constitution. just taking a toughness feat will give you the potential of 60 hp. on a 14 con caster, with toughness you can hit 300-350 hp. 60 hp is very significant

I didn't say it's useless, I just say it is not as indispensable or as useful to the casters, as it is for the meleers. A Fighter cannot substitute that, but a Wizard would probably be able to substitute that, and still do just fine.

I'm not the one who said that if there are other feats more important, then this one is useless.


if there are feats that are more important, it means you are not going to take great fortitude and hence useless since it is not going to be used at all. iron will is a different story because fighters will take iron will as they have way too many feats to spare. a L20 fighter has 18 feats. thats 6 more compared to a wizard. just look through the wizard build forums, tell me how many wizards take great fortitude

My stand isn't Iron Will sucks, it's that Great Fortitude doesn't. If anything, I've been saying Iron Will is super important. Classes like Wizard only have a Base Fortitude save of +6. If that and instant death effects such as Implosion isn't reason enough to get Great Fortitude, then I don't know what is.

Your reasoning is very flawed, for the pure and simple reason that you put BullHeaded, Negotiator, and Skill Focus on that same list. The very same list you declared that anything not on it is completely useless.

Most basic classes that are non-human, only get 7 feats. And Human Fighters can get up to 19. But even in that situation, I know enough math to say this: No amount skill points is worth one Feat! Even if it is a Cross Class Skill. If you spend Skill points on that Skill every level up accordingly, you won't have to do that in any way.

In my opinion, you overvalue Skill Focus Intimidate. Perhaps intimidating Raid Bosses is a good strategy, but not all tough Melee users will want to spend so much effort on Intimidate such that they sacrifice other things.

Secondly, I find you reasoning towards the strategy of using Great Fortitude extremely biased in nature.

How often does one find Improved Shield Mastery useful? Standing there and guard as you attract their attention isn't always the best strategy. But those who do it usually use Mobility Tumbling instead, if I'm not mistaken.

Hagglebard or not, I'm sure the Bard doesn't have enough feats to use it on Skill Focus Haggle. Not without compromising the other useful aspects. You must have realized that. And what is the reason to get UMD Skill Focus? So that Scrolls won't fail?

These Feats mentioned here are only employed for the specific rare situations. Yet considering situations where one needing Fortitude saves are much more common, such as defending against stone or blindness, you decided that it was not important at all. I have given you more than ample reason why Great Fortitude at least deserve an honorable mention, yet you absolutely refuse, saying that "It won't kill you," and "There are slightly better choices". Well I can say the same for Improved Shield Mastery and all the Skill Focus.

As far as I can see, your reasoning for not putting in Great Fortitude is largely biased and personal. If you can let the reader decide for him/herself whether a Feat like Negotiator is useful or not, they why not Great Fortitude? Couldn't you list out the advantages alongside the reason why you say this Feat is largely impractical despite the protection that it brings, and let the reader decide?

You put in less than useful feats like Negotiator, yet absolutely refuse to consider the possibility that +2 to Fortitude Saves might have it's benefits somewhere along the line.


they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=213346

This statement is completely false. Your Feat list is NEITHER a list of only the indispensable feats that specific classes and builds must have, NOR is your list a complete selection of Feats which are worth considering and essential to have. What you put on that list is more like something you personally like.

Aranticus
11-15-2009, 12:24 AM
I didn't say it's useless, I just say it is not as indispensable or as useful to the casters, as it is for the meleers. A Fighter cannot substitute that, but a Wizard would probably be able to substitute that, and still do just fine.

the point is, you do not have the experience to know what is happening at the higher levels, much less at end game and will not be able to determine how important a good hp score is. there are benchmarks for which a player has to attain in order to function well. return again when you done shroud, tod, and other end game stuff. you really need the experience to qualify your remarks

My stand isn't Iron Will sucks, it's that Great Fortitude doesn't. If anything, I've been saying Iron Will is super important. Classes like Wizard only have a Base Fortitude save of +6. If that and instant death effects such as Implosion isn't reason enough to get Great Fortitude, then I don't know what is.

you know that there are items and spells preventing instant death effects right?

Your reasoning is very flawed, for the pure and simple reason that you put BullHeaded, Negotiator, and Skill Focus on that same list. The very same list you declared that anything not on it is completely useless.

and again, you miss the point. intimitanks will take bullheaded. hagglebards will take negotiator. no casters will take greater fortitude and that is because there is a whole lot of feats more important than that +2 to fort save

Most basic classes that are non-human, only get 7 feats. And Human Fighters can get up to 19. But even in that situation, I know enough math to say this: No amount skill points is worth one Feat! Even if it is a Cross Class Skill. If you spend Skill points on that Skill every level up accordingly, you won't have to do that in any way.

again wrong. to intimidate horoth in tod you need 60+ intimidate. suulomades in vod is a 56 on normal. people take the feats because they want to max out on the skills to ensure ZERO failure

In my opinion, you overvalue Skill Focus Intimidate. Perhaps intimidating Raid Bosses is a good strategy, but not all tough Melee users will want to spend so much effort on Intimidate such that they sacrifice other things.

"Skill focus: intimidate is often taken by intimitanks to reach an intimidate score high enough to intimidate raid bosses."

you should actually read the information before you actually comment. i have already qualified which are the builds that will take sf intim feat

Secondly, I find you reasoning towards the strategy of using Great Fortitude extremely biased in nature.

and again, answer my question. how many wizard builds did you find using great fortitude? how many did not?

How often does one find Improved Shield Mastery useful? Standing there and guard as you attract their attention isn't always the best strategy. But those who do it usually use Mobility Tumbling instead, if I'm not mistaken.

you are mistaken. improved shield mastery adds 3 to blocking DR and will be taken by intimitanks, especially dwarf, to hit a DR so high to just shield block and intimidate a large group of mobs and taking no damage. anyone using mobility and tumbling while intimidating is not helping the party as the mobs will be all over the place

Hagglebard or not, I'm sure the Bard doesn't have enough feats to use it on Skill Focus Haggle. Not without compromising the other useful aspects. You must have realized that. And what is the reason to get UMD Skill Focus? So that Scrolls won't fail?

again, read the infomation

"Skill focus: haggle is only taken by hagglebot bards to help with buying and selling"

many of these bards will not be questing at all. hagglebots are a specialised build in that many of them will level up with other feats and swop out for haggle feat when capped. their function at endgame is just simply to buy and sell for the main questing toons

These Feats mentioned here are only employed for the specific rare situations. Yet considering situations where one needing Fortitude saves are much more common, such as defending against stone or blindness, you decided that it was not important at all. I have given you more than ample reason why Great Fortitude at least deserve an honorable mention, yet you absolutely refuse, saying that "It won't kill you," and "There are slightly better choices". Well I can say the same for Improved Shield Mastery and all the Skill Focus.

As far as I can see, your reasoning for not putting in Great Fortitude is largely biased and personal. If you can let the reader decide for him/herself whether a Feat like Negotiator is useful or not, they why not Great Fortitude? Couldn't you list out the advantages alongside the reason why you say this Feat is largely impractical despite the protection that it brings, and let the reader decide?

You put in less than useful feats like Negotiator, yet absolutely refuse to consider the possibility that +2 to Fortitude Saves might have it's benefits somewhere along the line.


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=213346

This statement is completely false. Your Feat list is NEITHER a list of only the indispensable feats that specific classes and builds must have, NOR is your list a complete selection of Feats which are worth considering and essential to have. What you put on that list is more like something you personally like.

seriously, we can argue all day long but all these stems from your inexperience in the game. you can post a thread in the forums to ask about the usefulness of great fortitude and then watch the response from the vets

but regardless of all that have been mentioned, read at the title. its "how i build my toons"

mechgouki
11-15-2009, 01:35 AM
You have more experience, so I won't argue, though I still don't see the need to have feats wasted on Intimidate on such totally rare situations.

What you say about the Hagglebot, seems to be a dump character. If it's a dump character, why do you even need to have feats or strategy listed for them? Isn't your guide about making useful characters that don't "drag the party down"?

This is how you build your toons, of course. And I've got no problems with that. My main problem is what you said somewhere else.

"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless"

I tried to make myself agree with you by carefully scrutinizing your list, and juxtaposing some of the similar feats. But in the end, I still can't agree with it.

What you have listed out is still based on your own experience and strategizing, not necessarily unanimously agreed upon and not necessarily holding true for everyone else. So please don't go about a declaration that anything outside of the list you made yourself is complete trash.

Call me petty, but at the very least, I tried to make myself agree with you.

Aranticus
11-15-2009, 02:05 AM
You have more experience, so I won't argue, though I still don't see the need to have feats wasted on Intimidate on such totally rare situations.

again, read up the forums and learn how to build an intimitank

What you say about the Hagglebot, seems to be a dump character. If it's a dump character, why do you even need to have feats or strategy listed for them? Isn't your guide about making useful characters that don't "drag the party down"?

there are hagglebots that can still function in quests. while most people retire theirs, some people make functioning hagglebots. 8 feats, 2 for haggle, 1 toughness, 1 empower healing, 2 spell pen, 1 extend. last one can be anything. such a hagglebot will be exclusively a spellsinger whose role in a party will be crowd control as well as back up healing

This is how you build your toons, of course. And I've got no problems with that. My main problem is what you said somewhere else.

"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless"

and it really is because if there are more important feats to take, then the particular one will not be taken and hence have no use!

I tried to make myself agree with you by carefully scrutinizing your list, and juxtaposing some of the similar feats. But in the end, I still can't agree with it.

What you have listed out is still based on your own experience and strategizing, not necessarily unanimously agreed upon and not necessarily holding true for everyone else. So please don't go about a declaration that anything outside of the list you made yourself is complete trash.

then face my challenge, what is the % of wizard builds with great fortitude? answer that and you will get the answer yourself

Mithran
11-15-2009, 02:52 AM
You have more experience, so I won't argue, though I still don't see the need to have feats wasted on Intimidate on such totally rare situations.

What you say about the Hagglebot, seems to be a dump character. If it's a dump character, why do you even need to have feats or strategy listed for them? Isn't your guide about making useful characters that don't "drag the party down"?

This is how you build your toons, of course. And I've got no problems with that. My main problem is what you said somewhere else.

"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless"

I tried to make myself agree with you by carefully scrutinizing your list, and juxtaposing some of the similar feats. But in the end, I still can't agree with it.

What you have listed out is still based on your own experience and strategizing, not necessarily unanimously agreed upon and not necessarily holding true for everyone else. So please don't go about a declaration that anything outside of the list you made yourself is complete trash.

Call me petty, but at the very least, I tried to make myself agree with you.

Aranticus has been at this a long time. I know he and I would never have come up with the same builds because our playing styles are very different. Despite this, we get along well and have raided together a lot.

SF: Intimidate for my Paladin, Anguirel (as an example) would take her from a self-buffed 58 to a 61 and is something I've been strongly considering, recently. That's a critical point for Intimidate builds, whether you've yet seen the use for it or not. Intimidate is not insignificant at the higher levels of this game and it is useful against every mob you're tanking. The lower the point at which you stop investing in Intimidate as a Skill, the lower the level at which it will prove useful. If I stop at 58, then I can continue to tank Suulo, but I lose the ability to tank effectively in Tower.

Similarly, Haggle specialists are something most guilds have at least one of, despite your apparent low regard for them. When you're re-Feating a Bard as a capped Hagglebot, you'll look to improve their Haggle at every opportunity. That means not just Skill Focus: Haggle, but also Negotiator, all the Class Enhancements, potions from House Denieth Ward, Inspire Competence from a fellow Bard, items, Skill Boost and anything else you can think of. That's just how the veterans have been doing it, here.

If you have nine or ten capped characters (and have had that many for a couple years, now) you look to maximize in different ways than Strength on your newly-rolled Fighter. You're also looking long-term for your bank account, the roles your guild needs you to fill in raids, and most of all the way you like to play.

Edit:

You might consider posting archetypes of the various builds in this Thread, Aranticus.

mechgouki
11-15-2009, 03:10 AM
"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless"

and it really is because if there are more important feats to take, then the particular one will not be taken and hence have no use!

Nonsense. Look, I don't know how many times I have to repeat that Great Fortitude still has a potential use, but the point here is that your statement of what is useless is wrong to begin with. Largely because it is based on your own strategizing and experience. Bottomline, IT'S NOT A FACT. It doesn't have to be on your list to be useful.

"if the feat is not in there, its useless" This statement is the one I'm arguing about. This statement is untrue.

Hey, the hagglebot never questing at all was your idea, not mine. Your topic was about making characters that "don't drag the party down", that's why I wondered why you even suggested such a character.

@Mithran, you get no arguments from me. I never questioned his playing style, I'm questioning the fact that he declared that any feat he thinks is useless is a guaranteed useless for everyone.

My point is this entire statement he made is wrong.
"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless" That list is based on his playing style, and he shouldn't declare it as a fact anything outside of that list is useless.

If it works for him, good. If it doesn't, don't go around declaring it useless yet. And above all, he shouldn't declare his list as absolute.

Aranticus
11-15-2009, 05:29 AM
"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless"

and it really is because if there are more important feats to take, then the particular one will not be taken and hence have no use!

Nonsense. Look, I don't know how many times I have to repeat that Great Fortitude still has a potential use, but the point here is that your statement of what is useless is wrong to begin with. Largely because it is based on your own strategizing and experience. Bottomline, IT'S NOT A FACT. It doesn't have to be on your list to be useful.

"if the feat is not in there, its useless" This statement is the one I'm arguing about. This statement is untrue.

Hey, the hagglebot never questing at all was your idea, not mine. Your topic was about making characters that "don't drag the party down", that's why I wondered why you even suggested such a character.

@Mithran, you get no arguments from me. I never questioned his playing style, I'm questioning the fact that he declared that any feat he thinks is useless is a guaranteed useless for everyone.

My point is this entire statement he made is wrong.
"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless" That list is based on his playing style, and he shouldn't declare it as a fact anything outside of that list is useless.

If it works for him, good. If it doesn't, don't go around declaring it useless yet. And above all, he shouldn't declare his list as absolute.

no, these are not based on my perception only but a summary of what is taken from the builds that are built by the recognised builders in this community. most of them will agree with the selection i have. of course, there will be exceptions but great fortitude is not one of them

as to the hagglebot, i've shown you one that can still function within a party. it will be able to heal and do crowd control. and in that capacity, it will function the same as other bards will and will not drag a party down

the point here is you are not discussing about the functionality of the feats. you are discussing my choice of words in that thread. i will still stand by it thou. if i'm not going to take the feat (as will many other people), what use does the feat has? however, the discussion will stop here or at least until you can tell me how are other feats less important than great fortitude

Aranticus
11-15-2009, 05:44 AM
You might consider posting archetypes of the various builds in this Thread, Aranticus.

what do u mean? like put in different builds to show how the feats are utilised?

mechgouki
11-15-2009, 06:37 AM
you are discussing my choice of words in that thread. i will still stand by it thou.

Indeed, because your choice words indicated it as a universal truth. That makes it untrue from step 1. Don't think that I haven't tried to see from your perspective. But no matter how many times I look at it, it's illogical. You prioritize Feats that are only useful at extremely rare situations such as Skill Focus Intimidate, over those that are essential to have throughout most of the game. What you prioritize is completely your freedom, but your choice words indicated a universal truth, and a set of standards. What you have stated is based on your experience and strategy. It is not factual.

"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless"

I still stand by my statement. This statement you made, is false.

if i'm not going to take the feat (as will many other people), what use does the feat has?

Your indication is that if you don't pick it, no one else will, and therefore the feat is useless. I'm starting to see why you made such an overconfident statement to begin with.

noinfo
11-15-2009, 07:42 AM
Nonsense. Look, I don't know how many times I have to repeat that Great Fortitude still has a potential use, but the point here is that your statement of what is useless is wrong to begin with. Largely because it is based on your own strategizing and experience. Bottomline, IT'S NOT A FACT. It doesn't have to be on your list to be useful.


I am with Mithran on this, I would never build my toons the way Aranticus does, though am actually sure even if he built a completely gimped toon it would dominate whatever run he was in (provided he can stay out of the lava).

But of my 20+ toons I can not ever find a use for Great Fortitude. If u want it go for it but honestly the only thing a fort save will help u against has been mentioned-> disintegrate and flesh to stone, well without Great Fortitude the only disintegrate I am worried about is in TOD and i am pretty certain I am only gunna fail it on a 1. 1 Spell cover pretty much all the bad fortitude stuff that will outright kill u and it comes in a mass version and if a cleric does not cast it at the start of a quest you know u are gunna need it, just ask cause they will always have it prepped. Will saves well FOM and protection from evil do most of it.

I can appreciate you not wanting to take the word of one person over your own personal opinion, yes as people point out you do have limited playing experience but I would suggest rather than go at it this way get a wider range of opinions and then come back with a link to the thread. I will be sure to post in it.

If you insist on saying how great a feat it is then take a survey of people with toons at cap and ask how many will take it? Hell on most of my toons I would certainly take SF UMD long before I would even consider Great Fortitude. And Mithran is absolutely right about intimidate, you either max it completely or you will not be an effective intimitank. If you haven't seen the value in one of those, you haven't been in a group with a good one. I do not have a toon with great intimidate but my clerics (3) like being in groups with them because they reduce resources greatly because they draw all agro, have good ac and effective blocking dr, and I only have to pop a heal on 1.

Mithran
11-15-2009, 02:45 PM
what do u mean? like put in different builds to show how the feats are utilised?

That's what I'm thinking. You could stay with the pure Class builds.

Aranticus
11-15-2009, 04:51 PM
That's what I'm thinking. You could stay with the pure Class builds.

I think linking the newbie template thread would suffice

Junts
11-15-2009, 04:54 PM
you are discussing my choice of words in that thread. i will still stand by it thou.

Indeed, because your choice words indicated it as a universal truth. That makes it untrue from step 1. Don't think that I haven't tried to see from your perspective. But no matter how many times I look at it, it's illogical. You prioritize Feats that are only useful at extremely rare situations such as Skill Focus Intimidate, over those that are essential to have throughout most of the game. What you prioritize is completely your freedom, but your choice words indicated a universal truth, and a set of standards. What you have stated is based on your experience and strategy. It is not factual.

"they should read my "how i build my toons" thread, if the feat is not in there, its useless"

I still stand by my statement. This statement you made, is false.

if i'm not going to take the feat (as will many other people), what use does the feat has?

Your indication is that if you don't pick it, no one else will, and therefore the feat is useless. I'm starting to see why you made such an overconfident statement to begin with.

Great fortitude is a really bad feat; i would be willing to wager the instance of end-game character with sf: Intim or sf: umd exceeds the number with great fortitude by a multiple of 40-50 in DDO. Yes, Im telling you there are 40-50 sf: umd's for every great fortitude on level 20 characters. I am not exaggerating.

Aran does in fact include just about every feat that might reasonably be taken by an experienced player here, novelty builds aside.

Binn05
12-03-2009, 06:25 AM
Excellent Thread.
+1 Rep ^-^

TiberiusofTyr
12-09-2009, 11:34 AM
Feats

Warforged Feats
Mithral Body (Passive)
Mithral body grants a warforged +5 bonus to armor class. This counts as light armor and caps the maximum dexterity bonus to +5. It imparts a 15% chance of arcane spell failure and characters take a -2 armor check penalty.

Pre-requisite: Warforged only, can only be taken at creation

Adamantine Body (Passive)
Adamantine body grants a warforged +8 bonus to armor class and damage reduction 2/adamantine. This counts as heavy armor and caps the maximum dexterity bonus to +1. It imparts a 35% chance of arcane spell failure and characters take a -5 armor check penalty.

Pre-requisite: Warforged only, can only be taken at creation



Body feats can be taken at any time now.

Aranticus
12-10-2009, 07:14 PM
appended paladin guide by junts

edit wf body feats, thanks tib

bandyman1
12-16-2009, 03:05 AM
Indeed, because your choice words indicated it as a universal truth. That makes it untrue from step 1. Don't think that I haven't tried to see from your perspective. But no matter how many times I look at it, it's illogical. You prioritize Feats that are only useful at extremely rare situations such as Skill Focus Intimidate, over those that are essential to have throughout most of the game. What you prioritize is completely your freedom, but your choice words indicated a universal truth, and a set of standards. What you have stated is based on your experience and strategy. It is not factual.

I still stand by my statement. This statement you made, is false.

What content do you think Vets are running 90+% of the time????

What content do you think you will be running 90+% of the time when you have 20th level toons???

I'm thinking if you play an intimidate melee, you will find skill focus: Intimidate useful in far, FAR more than " extremely rare situations ".

Also, most of us that are telling you that Great Fortitude is a waste have been playing this game since alpha or beta, and have never had a use for it on any toon. Hardly makes it " essential to have throughout most of the game ", wouldn't you agree?

Play more. Argue with those who have the experience you lack less.

Lorz
12-16-2009, 03:40 AM
i use a random number generator and a random skill selector.

What is this wrong? Should i not do this?

:)

Aranticus
01-01-2010, 04:20 AM
monk stuff coming soon :)

Lostara
01-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Bless your cotton socks for making this thead Aranticus. It's a big help to new people like me :)

Aranticus
01-11-2010, 08:45 PM
error in dexterity changed

thanks to pwnizzle

Talon_Moonshadow
01-12-2010, 07:08 AM
Well, I finally got around to reading.....most of this.

/salute

You did a very good job of stating facts, without getting toooooo judgemental on whether someone should build a certain way or not.

I think that is an excellent departure from the traditional build advice we see, where someone is very quick to tell people certain types of builds or selections are useless and don't work.

A guide should state facts, not opinions.

And yours does that....mostly very well.

lyeman
01-12-2010, 07:23 AM
Unlike the other classes, 12 ranger does not provide much notable benefits to the build.


Evasion, barkskin, GTWF, improved precise shot? Just a thought.

Dozen_Black_Roses
01-12-2010, 07:28 AM
I don't have time to read through all the comments to see if this was pointed out arleady, but just noticed quick that under class the favored soul section is blank.

Aranticus
01-12-2010, 08:27 AM
Evasion, barkskin, GTWF, improved precise shot? Just a thought.

compare 11 rogue vs 12 rogue

compare 11 ftr vs 12 ftr

now compare 11 rgr vs 12 rgr

is there really a benefit?

leadhead
01-12-2010, 11:56 AM
tl;dr! :D


Actually, this is very good, going to take a while for me to read.

Thanks for the hard work!

Aranticus
01-12-2010, 04:26 PM
I don't have time to read through all the comments to see if this was pointed out arleady, but just noticed quick that under class the favored soul section is blank.

Thats coz I yet to play one. Hee hee

jkm
01-12-2010, 05:25 PM
while i still think bluff is pretty bad, it has one secondary effect that is worth it - you can single pull a mob out of a group without aggroing the group.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-12-2010, 05:37 PM
while i still think bluff is pretty bad, it has one secondary effect that is worth it - you can single pull a mob out of a group without aggroing the group.

And if done right still get SA damage, and apparently still assassinate them too.


I also think it is valuable for a non-thug dex based Rogue when alone. As he is much more dependant on SA damage.

But of course a Radiance weapon solves that problem.

lyeman
01-12-2010, 06:46 PM
compare 11 rogue vs 12 rogue

compare 11 ftr vs 12 ftr

now compare 11 rgr vs 12 rgr

is there really a benefit?

Well, I thought we were comparing the normal splash intervals, i.e. 6, 12, etc.

Even then, though, if you are going 11 ranger, why not take one more level for level 3 spells and 1 ac?

Aranticus
01-12-2010, 08:39 PM
Well, I thought we were comparing the normal splash intervals, i.e. 6, 12, etc.

Even then, though, if you are going 11 ranger, why not take one more level for level 3 spells and 1 ac?

the 1 ac does not stack with a shield wand players who go such deep splashes would likely plan for umd or wand use. i agree that 12/8 or 12/6/2 is a very safe MC, if one would be going towards 11/9 or 11/6/3 there could be some other benefits which may outweigh. this is unlike fighters that go 12/8 or 12/6/2 are in that sense more tied up as kensai II is a very huge benefit

mediocresurgeon
05-09-2010, 06:35 PM
Is there something wrong with the guide? I don't see any info anymore.

stainer
05-09-2010, 06:38 PM
Is there something wrong with the guide? I don't see any info anymore.

It is moved to ddowiki.com.

English_Warrior
05-09-2010, 06:39 PM
I think he transfered it all to here:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Newbie_guide

Daliyn
05-10-2010, 02:46 AM
A hint on that in the first post would be nice.

Lleren
05-10-2010, 02:51 AM
A hint on that in the first post would be nice.

Check the signature.