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Samadhi
09-03-2009, 01:26 AM
Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

A spell with a DC? Even on normal it is landing less than 50% of the time. No, I'm not capped yet, but nor am I seeing anything in the loot tables to significantly change this the way the Napkin did either. Maybe +1 from a better tome and +1 from a leveling point to bump up 1 DC? That is not going to make a difference when on normal nothing is sticking. Please note, I'm not talking about trailing to Wail everything by any means. I'm specifically referring to the most likely spells to stick (hold, web, etc). The only CC spell we have found to really make a noticeable difference is actually sleet storm.

So what does that leave - nuking? Mildly beneficial - but another well equipped melee is going to be more reliable DPS most of the times it counts. Buffing? I'll run my bards - theirs are better - and they can DPS/heal as well.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.

kudesnik
09-03-2009, 01:43 AM
CC, Acid Fog, Sleet, Energy Drain / Hold / Stone/ Max Emp Chain Miss / Otto irresistible dance.

This so far working out for me.

Samadhi
09-03-2009, 01:45 AM
CC, Acid Fog, Sleet, Energy Drain / Hold / Stone/ Max Emp Chain Miss / Otto irresistible dance.

This so far working out for me.

Please define "working" in terms of a percentage.

If you are energy draining a mob just to hold it, you are wasting both mana and time, as far as I can tell. There are far too many mobs vs. the amount of mana you have to use this combo in any of the new Yugo quests.

quintuss
09-03-2009, 01:48 AM
In the vale i can destruct even rares fairly reliable with my cleric.

At least at lvl17 i got a destruct success rate on the trogs in the new explorer area of like 5%. :(

Seems to me the casters are more easy to destruct than the other stuff.

Edit: Greater command worked only one time and curse 1 or 2 times.

At the moment im back to maximized BB's.

kaelis
09-03-2009, 01:57 AM
Heighten permanently on, enervate/drain atleast once before any save spell, or ottos irresistable. Web has a ~20-40% success rate for me @ 18

kudesnik
09-03-2009, 01:59 AM
Ok, at 38Cha:

None DPS:
Orthons Drain/Hold works almost always on normal.
Bearded Devil more of an issue, they warded against dance and so only option is to Energy Drain or Enervation few times ( BD have high SR ) so 70% of the time spell working - then stone.
Tieflings easy, ball dance or Otto's irresistible works in 90%. or CloudKill.

Control:
Acid Fog and Sleet Slow motion.

Max/Emp Chain Miss :) yes drains mana fast but if u have lots of mobs close to each other it's a killer spell. and sorcs. can almost spam it.

kudesnik
09-03-2009, 02:02 AM
Again just to say you need to have well balanced party - good cleric - WHO can HEAL :) and good DPS. I ran same quest Iron Maw ( Bastion.. ) twice one with PUG - took us 130 min to finish lots of death. and next day with ppl I played before - 40 min. almost clean. New contect will kill PUGS till everyone get to lvl20 and get used to "how to..."

smatt
09-03-2009, 02:09 AM
I think the game is moving beyond simply zerging through insta-killing everything as fast as your little finger can hit the nuke button..... It'll take a bit mroe work and bit more party coordination, as well as some.... Yep, it's likely that the days of total sorcy domination 6 minute zerg-fests are over.... I'm finding on my non-pure wizzy that level drains the finger, and even PKs on certain mobs are working fine though. But melees are carrying a big part of the load so far as I can see in the new stuff.

Thank god, they're learnign yet again to mix it up, to give more classes a role..... Theyr'e getting away from the stupidity of 1 class rules them all, zergs them all boring BS, I'm so uber look at me go game play....

sephiroth1084
09-03-2009, 02:10 AM
Ran Genesis Point the other night on my 17 Wiz. When we got to the part where people were running through the maze, I went up to the control room to throw the switches and dealt with all of the respawning orthons on my own. If they appeared one at a time, I'd throw an Enervation and FoD, which took care of about 80% of them without needing to toss another spell. If they appeared in 2s, I'd either hit them with Mass Hold (worked about 50% of the time), or I'd throw down a dancing ball and kite them through it until both stuck, then, in either case, I'd beat them down with a Dreamspitter. Went through a bunch of orthons with no real problem.

Also, monster HP has dropped enough that one or two CoC can take care of most of the trash stuff. Then if we got swarmed with enough stuff, I'd toss a Wail and hope to take out one or two things--worked most of the time: 5 things attack, 1 or 2 die.

Monkey_Archer
09-03-2009, 02:14 AM
point form... tired...

36 intel, heightened to level 8:
finger of death - pretty much useless
web - working fairly well.. maybe 30-50% depending on target
irresistable dance - ;)


Sins of attrition went fairly smothly with constant webs/displacements on party...
Firewalls work fine for tieflings, trogs, and elementals in a new invastion... spam nuking the endboss seems to be the game plan atm...

Going to try mindfog/dancing ball to see how that works... maybe mass hold monster when i get to 20...


IMO good CC (and mass displacements :D) is vital for saving cleric resources... especially when running with lower levels (16-17)

Angelus_dead
09-03-2009, 02:18 AM
Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.
You're not surprised, right? It looks like a fairly predictable progression:
Shroud: Keep up the haste and fogs, plus maybe some heightened web. Oh and kill those gnolls.
VOD: Keep up the haste and fogs, plus maybe some heightened web. Oh and kill those bats.

The times when a mage could contribute DPS against devils in Shroud or later were uncommon, and depended upon a ring of melees already clobbering the boss. As a melee in these quests, I can contribute simply by moving in a clump with the other melees and swinging around at whatever gets close... but if there's a mage with us, too often it doesn't make sense for him to even bother trying. With effort and luck he can steal some kills, but that's not a true contribution to the party.

The devs will have to try and find a way to fix the problems you experienced, and I tell you, I don't envy them the job. Part of the solution could come automatically when you move on to mobs who don't have so many fire-immune teleporters. Part of their attempt will be adding non-spellpoint spells (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2008028) to casters, so they can join in DPSing trash without burning points needed for a boss. But it'll take a lot more than that, and some of the changes would definitely have to upset one category of players or another. It'll be tough!

(A few other things that could help would be Dimensional Anchor as a self-buff aura, and something like Energy Substitution or Searing Spell. Aggro scaling by distance threshold could help as well, as could a Intim and Diplo skills that integrate with Hate points. But those topics get very complex very fast. And hey, Mass Enervate!)

Sohryu
09-03-2009, 02:23 AM
Energy Drain/FoD/TtS FTW.

Sure more things are immune to fire but it's all about a change in strategy.

I've been using Trap The Soul more and more and it generally yields better results than FoD, and half the time you don't have to Energy Drain things first. They sell Tiny Khyber Dragonshards in Amrath now that you can buy and crunch up into Smalls and Averages, and they also sell Soul Bags in Amrath to hold all the gems.

cm2_supernova
09-03-2009, 02:42 AM
Thank god, they're learnign yet again to mix it up, to give more classes a role..... Theyr'e getting away from the stupidity of 1 class rules them all, zergs them all boring BS, I'm so uber look at me go game play....

Ya know smatt...your a great player but your posts are annoying as hell.

As for the OP...it seems to me to be a matter of over correction. Mod 4-5 Casters ruled them all...Mod 6-8 Casters lost a lot of their uberitude but were still very effective thanks to managable SR and DCs and effective use of run-n-burn tactics. Even in the shroud Casters can contribute to the Harry fight. Debuff, cloud and nuke, doenst seem to unbalanced to me.

Mod 9 seems to have taken it a bit too far due to the overly difficult spell DCs and high SR. Hopefully enough posts like these will either lead to better caster items or an adjustment to the mobs.

smatt
09-03-2009, 02:55 AM
Ya know smatt...your a great player but your posts are annoying as hell.

As for the OP...it seems to me to be a matter of over correction. Mod 4-5 Casters ruled them all...Mod 6-8 Casters lost a lot of their uberitude but were still very effective thanks to managable SR and DCs and effective use of run-n-burn tactics. Even in the shroud Casters can contribute to the Harry fight. Debuff, cloud and nuke, doenst seem to unbalanced to me.

Mod 9 seems to have taken it a bit too far due to the overly difficult spell DCs and high SR. Hopefully enough posts like these will either lead to better caster items or an adjustment to the mobs.

Sorry dude, I do take a different view than many on th subjec tof what casters became around Mod 4, when they did indeed need a boost in power. But it went over the top, and perhaps they've taken it a bit far back the other way. I think it's too early to pass judgement on the deal though. Remember that people are being mana conscious right now, simply because they aren't capped. Everybody is a bit on edge, new content, way new targeting and all, new spells. Nothing has setteled in yet..... I think once people hit cap, move gear around, get more confortable, then things will be a bit different. I'm seeing it not being all that hard to land stuff, but it is expensive at this point. But blowing mana and getting mroe will be pretty easy once everybody is at cap.

But I still believe that casters, and especially Sorcys have had it too easy for the last 2 years in this game. That's just me though.... I personally like quests where it becomes much easier when the entire party has a roll, be it out front or just as back-up,support.

Casters aren't dead, they aren't worthless, they're fine I think .... Just a bit more reliant on the other classes again....

kaelis
09-03-2009, 03:03 AM
Sorry dude, I do take a different view than many on th subjec tof what casters became around Mod 4, when they did indeed need a boost in power. But it went over the top, and perhaps they've taken it a bit far back the other way. I think it's too early to pass judgement on the deal though. Remember that people are being mana conscious right now, simply because they aren't capped. Everybody is a bit on edge, new content, way new targeting and all, new spells. Nothing has setteled in yet..... I think once people hit cap, move gear around, get more confortable, then things will be a bit different. I'm seeing it not being all that hard to land stuff, but it is expensive at this point. But blowing mana and getting mroe will be pretty easy once everybody is at cap.

But I still believe that casters, and especially Sorcys have had it too easy for the last 2 years in this game. That's just me though.... I personally like quests where it becomes much easier when the entire party has a roll, be it out front or just as back-up,support.

Casters aren't dead, they aren't worthless, they're fine I think .... Just a bit more reliant on the other classes again....

It's been beaten with a stick already but by level 20 casters aren't meant to sit back and be pocket buff/support bots.

IMO things will indeed look a lot better @ level 20, and i won't get my nickers in a twist one way or another until well after i've capped and figured out what's effective, but if it turns out this is the case, then yes casters are essentially a dead class. Which would be a shame, because if all we do is buff and occasional crowd control, a bard with a few shroud clickies would be way more welcome then any caster.

Borror0
09-03-2009, 03:12 AM
What Angelus_dead said.

Thriand
09-03-2009, 03:17 AM
Sorry dude, I do take a different view than many on th subjec tof what casters became around Mod 4, when they did indeed need a boost in power. But it went over the top, and perhaps they've taken it a bit far back the other way. I think it's too early to pass judgement on the deal though. Remember that people are being mana conscious right now, simply because they aren't capped. Everybody is a bit on edge, new content, way new targeting and all, new spells. Nothing has setteled in yet..... I think once people hit cap, move gear around, get more confortable, then things will be a bit different. I'm seeing it not being all that hard to land stuff, but it is expensive at this point. But blowing mana and getting mroe will be pretty easy once everybody is at cap.

But I still believe that casters, and especially Sorcys have had it too easy for the last 2 years in this game. That's just me though.... I personally like quests where it becomes much easier when the entire party has a roll, be it out front or just as back-up,support.

Casters aren't dead, they aren't worthless, they're fine I think .... Just a bit more reliant on the other classes again....

Most people won't even let more than 1-2 casters in raid groups these days and you think they have it easy?

Riggs
09-03-2009, 04:02 AM
Saves on monsters have gone way too high.

Turbine balance - hey new content is 2 levels higher? Add 10 levels to monsters.

4 levels higher? (technically mod 9 is only 2 levels higher anyway since refuge was like 17) Make monsters 15 levels higher.

My monk landed a single quivering palm in the battleground - after about 200 attempts over an hour. Not a single stunning fist (and gee weighted wraps not working on stunning fist what a surprise) - so all those 'useful' non-dps monk stuff? Useless. Fists of light the only thing with use.

Looking at the save dcs - I really dont even want to run my wiz in the new content.

Spookyaction
09-03-2009, 05:11 AM
I started the new content with my sorc and it blew. Then i switched to my cleric and i felt useful. Finally i tried my barb and it was fun.

sephiroth1084
09-03-2009, 05:16 AM
Mod 9 seems to have taken it a bit too far due to the overly difficult spell DCs and high SR. Hopefully enough posts like these will either lead to better caster items or an adjustment to the mobs.

My experience is fairly limited at this point, but in Genesis Point I was bypassing SR on the orthons on a 3+, which was easier than a lot of the stuff in the Sub. Saves, however, are definitely out of whack.

Zippo
09-03-2009, 05:28 AM
Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

A spell with a DC? Even on normal it is landing less than 50% of the time. No, I'm not capped yet, but nor am I seeing anything in the loot tables to significantly change this the way the Napkin did either. Maybe +1 from a better tome and +1 from a leveling point to bump up 1 DC? That is not going to make a difference when on normal nothing is sticking. Please note, I'm not talking about trailing to Wail everything by any means. I'm specifically referring to the most likely spells to stick (hold, web, etc). The only CC spell we have found to really make a noticeable difference is actually sleet storm.

So what does that leave - nuking? Mildly beneficial - but another well equipped melee is going to be more reliable DPS most of the times it counts. Buffing? I'll run my bards - theirs are better - and they can DPS/heal as well.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.

How long have you been around?

You know that's how it goes one mods end game melees are king and the next end game casters rule. That's pretty much the way its been since the beginning. Its just the nature of the game.

Aesop
09-03-2009, 05:35 AM
What Angelus_dead said.

It gets bad when you resort to that ;)

Though I do concur :D

Casters need to be able to contribute in a FUN meaningful way and just casting buffs doesn't cover it. Spamming is fun all of the five minutes (or seconds depending) that it lasts... but again that doesn't cover it

Aesop

Borror0
09-03-2009, 05:45 AM
How long have you been around?

You know that's how it goes one mods end game melees are king and the next end game casters rule. That's pretty much the way its been since the beginning. Its just the nature of the game.
Good, then why are melee "king" for four modules in a row?

It gets bad when you resort to that ;)
He wrote everything that I meant to say with the tone I meant to use, why type it twice?

Kraldor
09-03-2009, 05:47 AM
He wrote everything that I meant to say with the tone I meant to use, why type it twice?

Test your paraphrasing skills?

Zippo
09-03-2009, 05:49 AM
Good, then why are melee "king" for four modules in a row?



Well casters had it good for four mods now its four for the melees. Its just the idea that they jump it back and forth. I know you've seen it everyone has. They love on the melees for awhile then they love on the casters. Meant nothing bad by it, was just pointing out what others have seen but might of forgotten.

Well now look at the time off to work

Arkat
09-03-2009, 05:49 AM
Change Tactics.

Improve Teamwork.

Energy Drain.

Spookyaction
09-03-2009, 06:06 AM
New tactic = get a bard not a sorc ...

geoffhanna
09-03-2009, 06:22 AM
If you are level 17 you are -5 on your DC from where you will be a in a couple of weeks (assuming +2 for capstone).

-5 is a lot. And that is a minumum, I noted Greater school items that add +2 to your DC.

Lets talk again at the end of the month.

tinyelvis
09-03-2009, 06:30 AM
I would have to say I disagree with just about everything I was patient enough to read in this thread. I have pugged many quest and also ran with elite companions. I am here to say that well made casters rock in mod 9. Every party I am in, I either am a major contributor or the major guy who is tasked with killing the end boss. I have seen that this is the same with other well made casters and clerics.

I can do many things as the party member. I land my spells just fine rarely resorting to energy drain. I DPS better than any party member. No one comes close. This means I can really lay into some critter if needed (and I dont even use empower anymore so I know potentially someone can do better than me). I can also incapacitate some or all mobs or drop appropriate CC if I desire so the fighters easily rip thru them. All of this is done with one bar of mana between shrines.

I have run all of the new content and some up to elite with good performance at all levels. A number of times I have been tasked with solo'n the end boss(es) in many quests while the fighters intimidated or otherwise dealt with the re-spawning trash. Other times, I have dealt with the trash while melee'rs faught the boss.

As usual, its all about learning what to attack when and with which spell. The only thing dead are poorly made or played casters. The right spell and great saves are the key. Here is a hint ( I use very few flashy but ineffective new spells ). If you are a high hitpoint build with poor saves....too bad for you.

If the game designers make things easier for casters, I guarantee you that others will learn how to better play their toons and totally dominate all (as it stands now that still may happen). Stop whinning and relying on fire wall and make your caster the high powered death machines that they have the potential to be. (I have seen well played clerics dominate too).

Spookyaction
09-03-2009, 07:08 AM
I would have to say I disagree with just about everything I was patient enough to read in this thread. I have pugged many quest and also ran with elite companions. I am here to say that well made casters rock in mod 9. Every party I am in, I either am a major contributor or the major guy who is tasked with killing the end boss. I have seen that this is the same with other well made casters and clerics.

I can do many things as the party member. I land my spells just fine rarely resorting to energy drain. I DPS better than any party member. No one comes close. This means I can really lay into some critter if needed (and I dont even use empower anymore so I know potentially someone can do better than me). I can also incapacitate some or all mobs or drop appropriate CC if I desire so the fighters easily rip thru them. All of this is done with one bar of mana between shrines.

I have run all of the new content and some up to elite with good performance at all levels. A number of times I have been tasked with solo'n the end boss(es) in many quests while the fighters intimidated or otherwise dealt with the re-spawning trash. Other times, I have dealt with the trash while melee'rs faught the boss.

As usual, its all about learning what to attack when and with which spell. The only thing dead are poorly made or played casters. The right spell and great saves are the key. Here is a hint ( I use very few flashy but ineffective new spells ). If you are a high hitpoint build with poor saves....too bad for you.

If the game designers make things easier for casters, I guarantee you that others will learn how to better play their toons and totally dominate all (as it stands now that still may happen). Stop whinning and relying on fire wall and make your caster the high powered death machines that they have the potential to be. (I have seen well played clerics dominate too).


Well thats the answer i'm a gimpy 28 point build and a sucky player too. Now can you just be more specific on how to be uber like you ?

Hafeal
09-03-2009, 07:22 AM
Yep, it's likely that the days of total sorcy domination 6 minute zerg-fests are over.... Thank god, they're learnign yet again to mix it up, to give more classes a role..... Theyr'e getting away from the stupidity of 1 class rules them all, zergs them all boring BS, I'm so uber look at me go game play....

My first impressions are to agree with you. Add in the DA system to DS and try a zerg run through Wiz King, for example, much more difficult, especially with full group and/or on hard and elite (sure a wiz/sorc can still solo it on norm).

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:29 AM
Well casters had it good for four mods now its four for the melees. Its just the idea that they jump it back and forth. I know you've seen it everyone has. They love on the melees for awhile then they love on the casters. Meant nothing bad by it, was just pointing out what others have seen but might of forgotten.

Well now look at the time off to work

Um... you're missing the point. Because casters didn't 'have it good for four mods.'

Casters had mod 5. Mod 5 was the insane tipping of the scale to make casters the insane powerhouses.

Mod 6 upped melee.
Mod 7 upped melee.
Mod 8 upped melee.
Mod 9 upped melee.

They just went a little too far overboard. I'm hoping some of the issues will be band-aided when Savants come out. Being able to use a wall of lightning on devils will improve some of the DPS issues.

But make no mistake... It's a band-aid at best. They need to figure out better ways for casters to contribute meaningful DPS away from that one damned spell.

Hafeal
09-03-2009, 07:30 AM
Good, then why are melee "king" for four modules in a row?

Because they [the devs] perceived casters as still being too unbalanced to the other classes?

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:31 AM
My first impressions are to agree with you. Add in the DA system to DS and try a zerg run through Wiz King, for example, much more difficult, especially with full group and/or on hard and elite (sure a wiz/sorc can still solo it on norm).

Um... if you want to be technical. DA is Much much much much much more worse for melees than it is for casters.

DA doesn't really slow casters down at all. It's the infinite saves and immunity to fire that slow them down.

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:31 AM
Because they [the devs] perceived casters as still being too unbalanced to the other classes?

Wrongly...

I might add.

Hendrik
09-03-2009, 07:33 AM
Change Tactics.

Improve Teamwork.

Energy Drain.

Forgot to add, try again at the right level. No wonder spells are not landing well with the Environment Effects we face, Dungeons 2-4 levels higher then we are, MOBs 2-11 Levels(CR) higher then we are.

I mean really, what did people think would happen?!?!? Really think you are going to run around and PK, FoD everything in sight?

Yurtrus
09-03-2009, 07:34 AM
I think my cc, buffing sorc did just fine last night.. first impression though was not good. Glad I don't have to quest with many of you tossing sorcs to the wind. You have no idea what any one sorc can accomplish.. Pretty arrogant of ya to assume we all sux.

Big thing to remember is that there is more to this game then MOD 9. Unfortunately the mentality is that " oh I am going to be running only the new content now" so sad for you. This is the reason there is so much whining about lack of content. I don't care how many times you have run a shroud or vod or abbot. Us sorcs are here to stay and when you need a guide through any of those or the vale or orchard give me a call.

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:35 AM
Forgot to add, try again at the right level. No wonder spells are not landing well with the Environment Effects we face, Dungeons 2-4 levels higher then we are, MOBs 2-11 Levels(CR) higher then we are.

I mean really, what did people think would happen?!?!? Really think you are going to run around and PK, FoD everything in sight?

Yeah!!! No kidding!

Especially since when you gain two levels the DC will remain the same!

Why did you guys think that it would work as well as when you had the exact same DC 2 levels ago?

You're all crazy!

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:36 AM
I think my cc, buffing sorc did just fine last night.. first impression though was not good. Glad I don't have to quest with many of you tossing sorcs to the wind. You have no idea what any one sorc can accomplish.. Pretty arrogant of ya to assume we all sux.

Big thing to remember is that there is more to this game then MOD 9. Unfortunately the mentality is that " oh I am going to be running only the new content now" so sad for you. This is the reason there is so much whining about lack of content. I don't care how many times you have run a shroud or vod or abbot. Us sorcs are here to stay and when you need a guide through the vale or orchard give me a call.

Wow...

So your point is: Yeah, maybe you suck in old content. But I can go run content from a year or more ago back when casters were great, and I still rock!

Wow.

Yurtrus
09-03-2009, 07:38 AM
if I have to explain my point to someone like you who is so off on your thinking. Then my point was made.

Mr_Ed7
09-03-2009, 07:41 AM
Caster should stabilize, and wait for the Favored Soul's to level and then they can find you in the new content and get you back up.

tinyelvis
09-03-2009, 07:42 AM
Because they [the devs] perceived casters as still being too unbalanced to the other classes?

That is kinda it, but not quite. You see, the designer has to set things up so that the well played, well spec'd, and well equipped toon is challenged. The reason is that in community games like this, strategies, and toon setup knowledge quickly spread. It does not take long before the whole community has the knowledge and then what was at one time an impossible challenge is soon mundane for most everyone.

I believe that the balance is currently set to the short term potential of casters. Maybe at present only a small percentage of the community is performing at that level, but it wont be long before the vast majority reaches that level.

P.S. I think that casters will actually see some nerfing occur, for imo there are some very tough capabilities currently available.

Harncw
09-03-2009, 07:43 AM
My main (a sorc) hard a hard time in the battelfield
I was a little disheartened, but I think the methods will be figured out...

I think we just need time... content has been out for what 2 days now? course we gonna get our butts handed to us...

Keep in mind these quests are supposed to carry us through levels 17-20

Right now just let the DPS and their support clerics carry the load... a month or two from now we should know more.

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:43 AM
if I have to explain my point to someone like you who is so off on your thinking. Then my point was made.

Your point was made.

You still rock in the vale and orchard.

High five!

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:46 AM
My main (a sorc) hard a hard time in the battelfield
I was a little disheartened, but I think the methods will be figured out...

I think we just need time... content has been out for what 2 days now? course we gonna get our butts handed to us...

Keep in mind these quests are supposed to carry us through levels 17-20

Right now just let the DPS and their support clerics carry the load... a month or two from now we should know more.

Except... the content has been out for about 5 months on the test server. Melees aren't getting their butts handed to them. Neither are clerics. (I know... I play all types)

Furthermore.. the enemies we're fighting have been around for even longer. (Like 2 years) The strategies surrounding devils and orthons are pretty widely known already.

And lemme just say... you don't bring sorcs around in the shroud to finger Orthons. (I realize they can... but that sure ain't why you bring them)

Arianrhod
09-03-2009, 07:49 AM
Sounds like caster experience is about what it should be (based on how things work in D&D) vs. high level devils. However, it would be better if there were more variety of enemies. Maybe throw in some roving bands of non-devil adventurers to be vanquished along with the devils - they probably wouldn't have quite as much SR. Maybe even a few (shudder) undead, elementals and the like. Stuff casters are good against.

Yurtrus
09-03-2009, 07:51 AM
your too uber for me.. Glad we have people like you on the server that know it all. Wow.. it's a wonder anyone makes a character that is not like yours. I know.. you should post your specs on your toons and we can all build them just like you. LOL..

Enjoy the game.. I plan on it. Just hope I don't have to ever quest with people who think like you do.

Hey everyone.. Don't let this guy get you down.. Enjoy the game with whatever toon you play and we will muster through together.. Let him play the game by himself.. Seems like that is what he is best at.

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 07:54 AM
your too uber for me.. Glad we have people like you on the server that know it all. Wow.. it's a wonder anyone makes a character that is not like yours. I know.. you should post your specs on your toons and we can all build them just like you. LOL..

Enjoy the game.. I plan on it. Just hope I don't have to ever quest with people who think like you do.

Hey everyone.. Don't let this guy get you down.. Enjoy the game with whatever toon you play and we will muster through together.. Let him play the game by himself.. Seems like that is what he is best at.

What exactly do you know about my playstyle? Other than that I think casters have the hardest time in the new content than any other class?

That 'is' what this thread is about. At least my posts are on topic... and not saying that sorcs are fine cuz they're good in the orchard.

Harncw
09-03-2009, 07:55 AM
you don't bring sorcs around in the shroud to finger Orthons.

I'm not really sure what you are going on about...
Maybe I need more coffee...

I don't finger the orthons in the shroud personally... I usually web and sometimes dance them, and let the DPS deal with them. That ok with you?

Point I'm trying to make to the OP, is just give it sometime, your caster should look more promising after you get his primary stat to max, get a few more levels under his belt, maybe pick a spell school for a feat... get a few items (someone said gtr school focus is out now)

Goldeneye
09-03-2009, 07:58 AM
Casters: Someone has to cast haste, and heal the WF!

bobbryan2
09-03-2009, 08:03 AM
Point I'm trying to make to the OP, is just give it sometime, your caster should look more promising after you get his primary stat to max, get a few more levels under his belt, maybe pick a spell school for a feat... get a few items (someone said gtr school focus is out now)

People 'have' gotten to level 20. Maxed their casting stat. Gotten spell focus feats. (gtr spell focus has been out since the beginning of the game.)

You keep playing this, 'wait and see card.' I'm just saying that's unnecessary considering how long this content has been available.

moorewr
09-03-2009, 08:05 AM
As others have said: this is about what you should expect (in D&D) against devils. I'm having some success with heightened web, acid fog does its job (slows everything and kills tieflings) and I'm helping the party as well with stoneskin, blur, and haste. So, what with the fog and web making everything aggro on me my arcane is useful to the party, but maybe not as useful as my intimitank.

Effective does not equal fun, but yeah, we can become effective. Just don't expect more than a couple kills in a 90 minute quest.... and expect to DIE...

Kraak
09-03-2009, 08:08 AM
He wrote everything that I meant to say with the tone I meant to use, why type it twice?

Aesop - it would be no different than if he wrote:

/signed

What's wrong with that?

talyor
09-03-2009, 08:10 AM
I am not a hundred percent sure but i remember reading somewhere that the new explorer area has a positive effect on the mobs in essence granting them a permanet greater heroism which would account for the greater difficulty in landing spells with saves out there.

Kraak
09-03-2009, 08:13 AM
To the OP - I guess the only thing I would suggest is using the "right spell for the right save". I was picking off the casters with destruction without too much problem. But never really tried it on a high con mob, unless I popped them with energy drain once or twice. What about the useless spell PK? People have typically tossed it en lieu of only "needing one instakill spell". I personally haven't tried it yet in the new content, but it may help to pick your instakill based on the mob's lowest save.

So in a sense saves might matter? We'll see how it goes.

Borror0
09-03-2009, 08:24 AM
[...] the designer has to set things up so that the well played, well spec'd, and well equipped toon is challenged.
Interesting. We must be playing a different game because I have not yet seen DDO challenging the "well played, well spec'd, and well equipped toon".

Putting that point side, your statement is incorrect. A game designer has to design the game for a far larger pool of players than the "well played, well spec'd, and well equipped toon". Those are a very small minority, and it would be unrealistic to expect to be playing on Normal. The Elite difficulty setting is in the game, so they can use it if they want to challenge those players! The Normal setting is, or at the least should be, balanced for the averaged skilled players with average gear and an average build.

What's wrong with that?
Aesop is only poking fun at me. I'm usually more verbose and tend to bring up even the smallest disagreements.

lexinator
09-03-2009, 08:28 AM
Most people won't even let more than 1-2 casters in raid groups these days and you think they have it easy?

Exactly. I was surprised to see this. People are asking me to log on as my Fighter over my Sorc.... Because they already have a caster....

Turbine, please lower the DC's on mobs. As it is, I not only kill faster, but take less damage as a high AC/Med DPS build.... Even with glancing blows.

Monkey_Archer
09-03-2009, 08:32 AM
I really havent noticed it being that bad for casters.... obviously the days of soloing everything and leading the kill count are far from over, but casters were never supposed to be that powerful IMO...

Some of the new quests can be horrible for a cleric (at least until people start capping and know the quests better) and for this reason alone, a good CC caster or intimitank has never been more valuable

Im enjoying playing my main caster (only toon ive really played so far besides my cleric) of course, having evasion a min2 greataxe and a good vorpal might have something to do with it :D

Battle casters ftw... finally its true ;)

Kintro
09-03-2009, 08:33 AM
I'm debating switching from Illusion focus to Necromancy (Fear (-2 saves) + Symbol of Pain (-4 saves) + Waves of Exhaustion (-3 str save) + Web, Contagion (maybe, for bosses)) or Enchantment (Mind Fog, (Mass) Hold/Charm, Dancing Ball, Symbol of Stunning).

Also worth considering is Glitterdust, it has a Will save and isn't subject to SR.

I suspect it'll be a few days/weeks of respeccing before I play my sorc.

Pyromaniac
09-03-2009, 08:38 AM
The first day I absolutely hated playing my completely geared out sorc. Day 2, I flagged my sorc for the raid but once again it wasn't a fun experience vs playing a melee.

This is once again, a melee oriented mod. Casters are forced into the CC/buffing role for the most part which is exactly the opposite of how I like to play a caster. My style is either DPS or instakill, but my casters love to kill mobs. I would do some CC, but now its a full time job.

My CC is more than effective, with heighten and a 39 cha (until my last stat point where it would be 40). But cc isn't fun.

I've seen some utility from casters hitting Wail a lot, but that's about it as far as killing. Level 17 on my sorc is terrible.

My caster will likely be retired because Turbine just loves melee and designs the game that way. Reading the players handbook made me laugh because it referred to sorcs as the damage dealer of the party - not in DDO for a long time now.

Hendrik
09-03-2009, 08:39 AM
I'm debating switching from Illusion focus to Necromancy (Fear (-2 saves) + Symbol of Pain (-4 saves) + Waves of Exhaustion (-3 str save) + Web, Contagion (maybe, for bosses)) or Enchantment (Mind Fog, (Mass) Hold/Charm, Dancing Ball, Symbol of Stunning).

Also worth considering is Glitterdust, it has a Will save and isn't subject to SR.

I suspect it'll be a few days/weeks of respeccing before I play my sorc.


I have been working on that myself. Glad I have and NEVER going back.

Enchantment/Compulsion is NOT your friend in the new area/quest.

Demonfire
09-03-2009, 08:45 AM
Most of us are still level 17-18!
When everybody will be 20 with top gear plus the knowledge of new content under the belt we all gonna remember these first wave of paranoia/hysteria as bad souvenirs!

But so far i've ran a couple new contents with some casters who where just as solid as ever... just need to change tactics/spells/gears/feat/enhancements / whatever... and everything will be fine!

Of course casual "caster/cleric" players will have the wake-up call of their live with new content and i've already warned some of my guildy that it's about time to have that quicken on their cleric or imp. spell pen. on that caster!

Anyway.. long story short in 1-2 month we all gonna complain about how easy it is and howTurbine should try to balance "nerf" casters!

Dexxaan
09-03-2009, 08:48 AM
Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

A spell with a DC? Even on normal it is landing less than 50% of the time. No, I'm not capped yet, but nor am I seeing anything in the loot tables to significantly change this the way the Napkin did either. Maybe +1 from a better tome and +1 from a leveling point to bump up 1 DC? That is not going to make a difference when on normal nothing is sticking. Please note, I'm not talking about trailing to Wail everything by any means. I'm specifically referring to the most likely spells to stick (hold, web, etc). The only CC spell we have found to really make a noticeable difference is actually sleet storm.

So what does that leave - nuking? Mildly beneficial - but another well equipped melee is going to be more reliable DPS most of the times it counts. Buffing? I'll run my bards - theirs are better - and they can DPS/heal as well.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.

IF you are right........ then boo hoo roll a tank or adapt.

Casters have hade Nuclear Warhead Poofing abilities for as long as Mod 7 and 8. Did us Tanks (Tank Players) whine and complain? A little...but only due to the kills being fingered everytime we geared our uber DPS weapon of anything bane only to watch a PK, Red Finger or Scorching - Ice Ray POOF mobs left & right.

Frustrating? a bit. Will you get ove it? Depends on your adaptability.

Will you eventually be able to solo the battlefields of another plane? I truly hope not.


BTW - The Turbine store is stocked up on Crackers and Cheese...... :rolleyes:

Harncw
09-03-2009, 08:51 AM
People 'have' gotten to level 20. Maxed their casting stat. Gotten spell focus feats. (gtr spell focus has been out since the beginning of the game.)

You keep playing this, 'wait and see card.' I'm just saying that's unnecessary considering how long this content has been available.

Maybe I'm being niave but I dont think casters are dead yet.
I plan on waiting and seeing.

EKKM
09-03-2009, 08:54 AM
I was only in the new explorer area with my cleric for a about 10 minutes but I did notice a significant difference from the vale.

Destruct only worked after an energy drain, alot of mobs with evasion so BB wasnt as effective, command was a waste of spell points.

Not sure if it is good or bad yet though. I do need to eat a wis tome still (50 favour away) and dont have an exceptional wis items yet, but other than thatit is maxed. Level 18 feat will almost definitely be heighten.

Kiranselie
09-03-2009, 09:06 AM
I dont know if its been mentioned, couldnt bring myself to read every post of this, but in the new area, we're not the only ones that benefit from a constant GH effect.

So you take mobs that are already a PITA for casters, the add a few levels to their CR, then add on an additional +4 to their saves, and yeah, your not going to be able to shine as the "best" in the party. I've flagged my sorc, and other than having to toss an evervate before I fts i havent really noticed that much of a difference. Web was an iffy spell previously, and its still kinda iffy. I stopped trying to be an instakill machine waaaaaay back when mod 7 dropped.

If I've learned anything in the almost 3 years of playing this game is that everything is cyclic, and we'll see another mod down the road that elevates casters back to the position they were in mod 5, then we'll see another mod that does what mod 6 did to bring a lil bit of balance back, and so on and so forth.

No, I dont think casters are dead, I just think thinking outside the box might be tho.

Samadhi
09-03-2009, 10:44 AM
Wow this thread got some responses - let's see if I can respond to all of the general points:

1) To the "wait and see" crowd: As stated, I have not seen anyone find any loot to help the DC's in our spells. That means that a caster that has level 9 spells probably is at most 1 DC below their max potential. This is why wait and see is irrelevant - because our DC's won't be going up significantly as we progress to cap. (An extra +1 for wizards; maybe they will finally start to have an edge on sorcs in theory; but when we are talking about stuff not sticking ON NORM... I see no point in bringing a caster on Elite)

2) To the "what you think caster's should pwn everything again" crowd: Let me reiterate in case the point was missed. No, I do not think that. However, when even my weakest spells (web for example, which works for a moment, but they break it too quick to matter). It's a balance issue. This leads to...

3) A_D/Borr0's points on balancing: My view of the ideal caster::melee ratio was what they did in MOD 3. This was before the change to mana that bumped our pools up significantly if you all recall. Back then, a smart caster could use CC sparingly but intelligently to make things significantly easier for the melee/cleric. However, there was not even a realm of possibility that the caster would have enough mana to nuke their way through. The difference from here to now is - now the caster's CC is not making enough of a difference - although the dungeons are big enough that even with "auto-landing" of spells I can't FOD my way through. It makes more sense to get a bard for haste/buffs and leave the caster at home unless something is done about DC's vs. Saves.

4) To Tinyelvis: Once again, I have had no issues with failing saves. Your argument is completely irrelevant. As everyone else responding has pretty easily been able to grasp - the issue is with DC's.

5) To the "enervate it first" crowd: Spending close to 100 mana to take down 1 mob can be very useful in certain situations (the Genesis lever throwing example). However, this is not a mana efficient strategy for the new end game as a whole.

6) Someone suggested Trap the Soul: Haven't given this a shot yet; I will. However, crowd control is my biggest concern right now, not instadeath.

There are also several posters saying that "content has been easy" without really being specific. My guess is that your melees were so effective at killing things that it didn't matter that your spells were kind of pointless. Maybe I need better melees :D. I played a LOT the past two days, and cannot specifically recall which melees I was running with when I was flagging my wizard; but when I was flagging one of my bards yesterday I had a decent bit of group fluctuation and definitely noticed that melees were making a huge difference on overall quest ease (not surprisingly). However, I also noticed my bard could accomplish 95%+ of what my caster was able to contribute and a good bit besides. So why bring a caster? Just cause you can't find a bard?

Strakeln
09-03-2009, 10:47 AM
Might relate to having perma-GH.

lunaticcat
09-03-2009, 10:48 AM
Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

A spell with a DC? Even on normal it is landing less than 50% of the time. No, I'm not capped yet, but nor am I seeing anything in the loot tables to significantly change this the way the Napkin did either. Maybe +1 from a better tome and +1 from a leveling point to bump up 1 DC? That is not going to make a difference when on normal nothing is sticking. Please note, I'm not talking about trailing to Wail everything by any means. I'm specifically referring to the most likely spells to stick (hold, web, etc). The only CC spell we have found to really make a noticeable difference is actually sleet storm.

So what does that leave - nuking? Mildly beneficial - but another well equipped melee is going to be more reliable DPS most of the times it counts. Buffing? I'll run my bards - theirs are better - and they can DPS/heal as well.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.


I hate to say it but unless you are a high con WF build, casters are going to be tough in the new area. I've taken mine in, and several other solid builds that can go anywhere else with ease... None of them have had any success at all. Spell's bounced off of the monsters with the only affect is drawing agro and getting killed. Clouds didnt slow, PK/FOD's were useless and the new spells just aren't effective (wail of the banshee being centered on a caster likea blade barrier is a BAD thing)

I still have a lot of work to do with my casters out there, but so far, the results haven't been very good.

Sohryu
09-03-2009, 10:52 AM
6) Someone suggested Trap the Soul: Haven't given this a shot yet; I will. However, crowd control is my biggest concern right now, not instadeath.


Yay, finally someone heard me, I've suggested this in a couple threads but always kinda felt like the hobo in the corner of the room holding a cardboard sign that said "TtS FTW".

And if you want crowd control, get a Virtuoso Bard. 'Nuff said.

*shuffles back to her corner*

As a afterthought, perhaps this is the Mod that the "cream will rise to the top" so to say concerning the caster class...the people who think it's nothing but nuking will give up on the class and the ones that are able to adapt will stick around.

Samadhi
09-03-2009, 10:55 AM
Yay, finally someone heard me, I've suggested this in a couple threads but always kinda felt like the hobo in the corner of the room holding a cardboard sign that said "TtS FTW".

And if you want crowd control, get a Virtuoso Bard. 'Nuff said.

*shuffles back to her corner*

Lol, I bought the components for the version that was too low HD to work out there, but was too anxious to get questing to crunch them for an hour before going out. I'll do it today :D

Interesting about the Virtuoso Bard - that I hadn't gotten a chance to try out yet either. Giving me all kinds of projects for the day!!

Angelus_dead
09-03-2009, 11:15 AM
Change Tactics.
Improve Teamwork.
Energy Drain.
That very interestingly brings up a point I thought about mentioning earlier, but didn't: One could say "Casters don't stack with melee", in a way.

To an extent players have been aware of this and complained of this in the past: there's the old cry "Hey, you stole my kill with a Finger!". In that case, the melee person had been using his abilities (and maybe resources) attacking a monster by removing most of its hitpoints, but then a caster comes in and uses his own resources to kill it in a way that hitpoints are irrelevant. When that happens, both players can blame the other for making a mistake. The melee says "You just wasted spellpoints on something that was about to die", while the caster says "You risked your hitpoints for something I was going to kill safely". But that's an old known issue however.

But the problem amplifies when monsters have high enough saves to obligate Energy Drain, like you suggested. In this scenario it is a two-step process for a caster to kill a mob, so it can be viewed as a progress bar towards the defeat of the monster (1. Drain 2. Finger/FOD), just like hitpoints are. So what we have now are melee and casters using two separate progress measurements to indicate how close they are to killing a mob, and they don't really relate to each other. Whichever progress completes first kills the enemy, and means the other one was basically pointless (except that the Drain reduced the mob's DPS a little for a short time)

So it's trending towards a division, where casters in a party stack with each other by throwing debuffs that cause mobs to fail save-or-lose spells, and melee stack because they inflict numerically-additive hitpoint damage. But if a caster wants his attacks to stack with melee then he can't use the Drain+Die approach, and instead has to go to an entirely different list of DPS spells, which are probably less effective or he would have been using them already.

I say "trends" above because this kind of thing isn't completely clear-cut, and there are many exceptions and complications. But the tendency towards caster and melee non-stacking is there.

Angelus_dead
09-03-2009, 11:21 AM
1) To the "wait and see" crowd: As stated, I have not seen anyone find any loot to help the DC's in our spells. That means that a caster that has level 9 spells probably is at most 1 DC below their max potential.
Lol maybe Spellsinger III will give you another +2 DC.

(If I was a designer, I'd be looking for ways to give casters an accumulating DC buff if a monster had just resisted your spell, or an enhancement to give you from +1 to +4 DC according to how far down the enemy's hitpoints are, and other weird ideas)

Mindspat
09-03-2009, 11:42 AM
Seriously. I hope I am wrong, really really wrong, and am missing something key. But, at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.

Please tell me how I am wrong so that I can adjust my strategies accordingly. Thanks.

You're not mistaken.

Caster's need a 38-40 int/cha stat to be as functionable as they were in the older content. If you have a 28 pt build you're probably never going to feel adequet unless your playtime consists of being a Haste Bot. The only effective use of a caster is to spam level draining spells and the 40-55 points of base dmg delt by most devils or orthons means you're going to have issues if the character's hitpoints are too low.

The new content caters to one playstyle and one only, dps. Don't even think about claiming your caster is DPS 'cs if you do then you either don't understand what the term means or you're going through multitudes of mnemonics. If you're using spell dmg it's not dps, it's burst dmg.

Caster's really don't have much if any function in the content. You could probably use one for Haste, but you would be better off with a Bard which provides a lot more advantages.

There are a few areas where Sorc/Wiz's shine but it's going to take a lot of practice and possibly a few respec's to get it working right.

I think the greatest reason why casters feel completely and virtually entirely useless in the new content is 'cs most, if not all, of us have become used to the weaker environments we've been playing in over the last year. The fact is DC's are extremely high to the point that it requires a different approach then what worked elsewhere. think - we're fighting them on their grounds!

Casters needs serious improvements and the content prooves that Melee DPS is fine whereas sustained spell dmg is not. Maybe Eladrin will figure out something cool that to give a little more umpf. Arcane roles in DDO are somewhat lacking at this point.

I expect ommission of Arcane from LFM's once more poeple have played through the content. A bard does everything better, and it's probably time to make one...

Mindspat
09-03-2009, 12:04 PM
Casters: Someone has to cast haste, and heal the WF!

A Bard will do it better.

I think Bards got the most love out of this mod. Afterall, they took the place of an Arcane caster in the new content. :D

Angelus_dead
09-03-2009, 12:05 PM
I expect ommission of Arcane from LFM's once more poeple have played through the content. A bard does everything better, and it's probably time to make one...
So how do you reply to all the bards who say:
Boo hoo hoo, I'm helpless, I got nuthin.
I can't Web, Fog, Drain, or Stone. Of course I have no FW or Polar Ray. The module gave me no new spells, and these new mobs are mostly immune to charm even.

unionyes
09-03-2009, 12:13 PM
I had some premonition that melee were going to come into their own again this mod.

The Shroud sort of hit casters in the gonads a bit. It was easy to get into a group for flagging runs as a caster, but a lot harder to get into the actual Shroud, as most people didn't feel the need for more than one or two casters.

I had a barbarian sitting at level 10, so I leveled him up to 15 and Shroud flagged him. I was thinking hard about deleting my level 10 Warchanter, but decided to wait until the mod to see what the lay of the land would be. I am glad that I leveled up my Barbarian and kept my Bard.

I now will be parking my sorcerer, using him mostly for vail and desert runs and helping guildies get flagged for Shroud and Reaver raids. I will be focusing most of my play time leveling up my Barbarian, Bard, and my level 9 Pally that I use mostly for solo play, since it seems that casters are not overly useful in the new content.

Casters aren't dead, yet, but they are definitely not all they once were in terms of killing power.

Vordax
09-03-2009, 12:57 PM
I had some premonition that melee were going to come into their own again this mod.

The Shroud sort of hit casters in the gonads a bit. It was easy to get into a group for flagging runs as a caster, but a lot harder to get into the actual Shroud, as most people didn't feel the need for more than one or two casters.

I had a barbarian sitting at level 10, so I leveled him up to 15 and Shroud flagged him. I was thinking hard about deleting my level 10 Warchanter, but decided to wait until the mod to see what the lay of the land would be. I am glad that I leveled up my Barbarian and kept my Bard.

I now will be parking my sorcerer, using him mostly for vail and desert runs and helping guildies get flagged for Shroud and Reaver raids. I will be focusing most of my play time leveling up my Barbarian, Bard, and my level 9 Pally that I use mostly for solo play, since it seems that casters are not overly useful in the new content.

Casters aren't dead, yet, but they are definitely not all they once were in terms of killing power.

Parking 2 of my casters also, don't really want to be a CC/buff bot. Plus a bard will do it better. Songs will help the melees kill the trash faster, they can haste, displace and GH too. No need for a caster.

Vordax

Salkanor
09-03-2009, 01:02 PM
....we ran a bunch of the new quests on elite yesterday.
Heightened webs still played a big role as far as cc goes.

Kalari
09-03-2009, 01:05 PM
Actually ive been in there with my wizard did a quest or two cc is still viable in that area. Sure nukers may have problems due to SR and the like. But those of us who use cc and force will not have as much trouble as I thought. My force missles along with debuffs and crowd control helped make things go smoother. Since I do not have a sorc not sure how it is on that end. But I think any caster who regularly raids will find their place in the new content.

smatt
09-03-2009, 01:07 PM
This is again the same old arguement we get every Mod... My particular preferred class isnt' useful anymore. All classes should be super-uber-duper all the time in every quest. I din't see asingle caster oriented player complaing at all back in Mod 4 when melees were boxes to be placed in front of doors..... Or in Mod 5 when a good number of partys consited of caster and clerics only.. With melees BEGGING to get in, or getting in by the grace of their guildies. It's just the way it is....

Now I can understand some early frustrations at this point... For people who prefer to play casters and also prefer to look at their names at the top or close to the top of the kill count. I'm not syaing that's bad, or critisizing that kind of player or person. BUT, that type of need or playstyle might find this new mods content lacking for them. If people have the idea that the onyl thing a party needs is for every toon to kill as much as possible and mesasures their worth to the party and quest on that basis alone, again they might be disappointed. And hey that's OK....
But again there's far more to a quest and a game than seeing your name up there above everybody elses. At least in my eyes there's far more that a player or particular toon can provide a party. To make the whole quest run smoother and easier for everybody.......

Kalari
09-03-2009, 01:11 PM
I found that many mobs were susceptible to my waves of exhaustion/fatigue spells and many of the creatures out there take big hits from force spells. If you have an arcane that is specced for it and can protect themselves like my wf wizard you shouldnt have too much trouble in there. My elf wizard im kinda nervous but I am going to give her a shot in there to the only way to learn is to test. But I really think this area will be good for those of us who didnt go the elemental route for casting and finally see it as a good place to show off all the enhancement I put in force spells to give them oomph.

Aeneas
09-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Have been surprised not to see any heightened glitterdust mixed in with all the webs the sorcs and wizzies have been dropping - when i run my rogue and i'm blinding everything with radiance and moving on to the next mob immediately it seems to keep the party alive. The majority of the damage (sins of attrition boss fight aside) seems to be from melee attacks - nobody is dying from acid rain and force missiles. A good quick cloud for concealment, a nice web, and a shiny glitterdust sound like a prescription ftw.

joker965
09-03-2009, 01:14 PM
Currently the devil/demon slayer casters have not been ironed out. The "best" way is not known yet.

Also, i would look for multiple spells that can be added now that nuke a creatures SR or saves. Lower Resistance and such...

Everything changes when you go fight the demons and devils on their turf. This is how it always was for casters in PNP D&D. We need to find a new way.

moorewr
09-03-2009, 01:18 PM
Seems like specing as a force damage nuker has promise, especially with chained missiles. It will require working with a party that is using DPS instead of vorpals or using stat weapons to be truly effective, but it seems like, on normal, that DPS is as good an option as any. You know, unless your vorpal dice are hot.

Samadhi
09-03-2009, 01:33 PM
Smatt - did you read a single word typed in response to the first rant you posted?

Aspenor
09-03-2009, 01:48 PM
I've seen will-based effects working somewhat well. However, I've been focusing on other things than playing my caster so I can't say with 100% certainty.

tinyelvis
09-03-2009, 01:50 PM
I cannot believe so many casters are whining. The new high end content is not that tough. We new it was coming and it was easy to prepare for it. I did, and so did many others. Those who did not will need some days or weeks to respec their toons.

1. You are not going to land spells unless you bump up your DC's and even then you will not land all spells but only the ones you focused in. You need to know what spell to cast on which enemy mob (some have immunities you need to learn). It really is that simple. Jumping into the middle of a mob of Devils and Orthons and casting a Spell with a fort save like " Wail of the Banshee" is gonna get you no where but dead real fast. Just because this is not working for you does not mean the game is broke. I dont even carry "Wail of the Banshee". Focus your talent. If you have not done this then your caster probably will not perform well.

2. There are so many shrines and they are so close plus the mobs have lower hitpoints than say those in the subter, so you are able to toss out spells continually between shrines. I got rid of empower, because the extra firepower just is not necessary. If you cannot reliably kill a devil or Orthon (in 6 man party on normal) in 1 to 3 shots from your best damage spell then you need to re-evaluate your build or stop trying to kill things. AOE spells with saves are poor choices against most mobs. For example, use Polar ray and Force missiles ( or equivalent ) when battling. You will kill just as much as the best tank in your party. Against the end boss in the quests with a full mana bar you will do the most damage. In fact you can solo most of them. I have almost never thrown a firewall in any of the new content.

3. If you really want to be an aggressive sorc, then you need to cut the fat out of your build. Eliminate things that don't directly improve your combat spell casting ability in favor of things that do. This means setting up the best weapon sets, building good outfits, carrying good green steel items and raid loot that boost your important spell performances. Only choose feats that improve your offensive spell casting ability.

4. Decide to either use CC spells to help the melee or kill mobs along side them. You cannot do both. You also cannot act as a buffing machine and expect to have enough mana to perform offensively. Besides, with the dynamics of the new content, few people need many buffs.

It is my opinion that if your performance is mediocre to poor in the high end content than that is a reflection of your play style or build. Because, I see casters performing very well all the time. Whine all you want. At some point you will group with a caster who performs well and you will eat your words. Copy what he does.

foxx
09-03-2009, 01:58 PM
CC, Acid Fog, Sleet, Energy Drain / Hold / Stone/ Max Emp Chain Miss / Otto irresistible dance.

This so far working out for me.


so far the groups with a solid caster have done better then the ones with out. dunno
maybe it's a perspective thing .

smatt
09-03-2009, 01:59 PM
Smatt - did you read a single word typed in response to the first rant you posted?


Yes I did Sam, and what I said wasn't a rant at all, YOU were the one having a tizzy fit rant.... What I said wasn't an attack, it wasn't an insult at all. What I said was centered around looking at the reality (In a fantasy based game yet) of what and how Turbine could move forward in thsi game, creating a more diffuclt enviroment. If you feel worthless on your casters, it may very well be the case that in your preferred playstyle that you are now. The game progresses, classes have different effective uses in different quests and mods. That's the way the game is and has been from day 1. That's they way PnP D&D has been from day one.... Turbine has made the mistake too many times of over/under powering particular classes in particular Mods from day one as well. Then when they have to back-up and swing the nerf bat, or design around their past mistakes, it invaribly leads to this. It id in Mod 3, it did in Mod 4, Mod 5, Mod 6, Mod 7, Mod 8.... And will likely conitnue in the next Mod as well.

Casters have now gotten use to having plenty of mana to burn in quests... That's not the case now, even with max SP/DC sorcys... Part of the that has to do with not leaving the quest in our new found quest for XP again, and part has to do with the increased saves of the mobs, which are more inline with player saves now it seems.

But I think making a huge deal out of before the level capping and re-twinking is going a bit overboard. It's not THAT bad.... But the days of the Sorcy nukefest are over it appears.... If that bothers you than nothing anybody can say will change it for you. My expectations I guess are a bit lower than yours. I don't know, I more or less expected what was coming as just the way it would be, that if Turbine is to increase the difficulty of the game, they would have to increase the DC's required to break the insta-kill/nuking barrier. And that in the new high level quests on elite, that simply wouldn't be an option. And the fact is at least righ tnow casters have to consider their man use carefully, instead of just blowing it on one fight....

Again, I think you're jumping the gun on your projections of how things will be when people settle into the new content, new builds, new twinking.... As well as what the most effective rolls are for each member of a party, in a particular quest. I mean what I read from your posts, If I[m reading htem righ tis that you want to be able to jsut insta kill everything, or have your spells work all the time.. Toss a heightened web= insta-death for all mobs that happen to encounter it... Fingers work 75-100% of the time.... Thsoe days are gone.... Time for some thought, some teamwork, and for the other classes to have somekidn of a significant roll again, outside of the couple of raids of recent MOd (IE Shroud, Hound, VoD) as well as the nuker casters.

smatt
09-03-2009, 02:07 PM
so far the groups with a solid caster have done better then the ones with out. dunno
maybe it's a perspective thing .


Darn it..... I'm going to agree... I had a HORRIBLE couple of runs with a particular caster the other day. And then the runs I've had with solid casters have gone very smoothly.... I play a barely competant caster and the runs we're still smooth. A well played caster, with a well thought out game plan is a big help. Just not what it was in previous content.. Differrent quests, different roles....

tinyelvis
09-03-2009, 02:17 PM
so far the groups with a solid caster have done better then the ones with out. dunno
maybe it's a perspective thing .

I also agree with this statement. In fact, in general, my current party setup of choice is

2 casters (one DPS and one CC )
2 Cleric/Battle Clerics (since mob damage is low, both clerics are expected to pitch in from time to time)
2 Other

Clerics call out their blade barriers. Everyone stays together. Mobs are dealt with a little at a time. Everyone is expected to be as self sufficient as possible.

smatt
09-03-2009, 02:22 PM
I also agree with this statement. In fact, in general, my current party setup of choice is

2 casters (one DPS and one CC )
2 Cleric/Battle Clerics (since mob damage is low, both clerics are expected to pitch in from time to time)
2 Other

Clerics call out their blade barriers. Everyone stays together. Mobs are dealt with a little at a time. Everyone is expected to be as self sufficient as possible.

And there it is to some degree, although I've also seen good runs with 1 caster and 1 cleric, mana can get tight IF the casters are careless and don't let the melees do their jobs, which is to be the main killing machines. But I think once toons are capped, this may rotate back to the casters a bit more, with more availble mana to blow through. It's pretty clear though, that melees will carry things a lot more in this content. No doubt about it.....

Samadhi
09-03-2009, 02:24 PM
Not worth the breath.

Pyromaniac
09-03-2009, 08:03 PM
Not worth the breath.

Any time there are caster issues, there tend to be the same pro-melees who say casters are overpowered. It really suggests there may be an issue here because there isn't as much discussion of casters being overpowered as there used to in these types of threads.

I'll put it this way, doing the new raid today we had to say 'ok guys, who can bring a caster' - because nobody really wanted to that much. One is more than enough for the new raid as well.

Its not the end of the world, I'm just considering shortening my bench of toons and not playing the sorc.

smatt
09-03-2009, 10:35 PM
Not worth the breath.


Dude as I said in my PM, I'm not having a go at you at all. I simply disagree with your evaluation that casters are worthless or next to worthelss in the new content. I see them as more than just nuke bots that must be superior, you don't.....


Any time there are caster issues, there tend to be the same pro-melees who say casters are overpowered. It really suggests there may be an issue here because there isn't as much discussion of casters being overpowered as there used to in these types of threads.

Not in the least, you seem to have this idea it's pro-melee pro-caster.... I think it has more to do with ones attitude and opinions on what classes roles are through-out the game. Sure if your playstyle dictates being able to look at something dead... Well then you might hae major issues, just as thye super-duper WoP only crowd was with the WoP nerf. This desperation to be the greatest at everything, well that's what will lead to a brick wall.

The Mod is new barely anybody is capped, nobody has figured out realyl good and well thought through tactics in the quests yet. It's way to early to cry "Casters are dead". Good players will find rolls for their toons in each and every quest, some will be key to a quest, some will be just like a melee was in say GoP or 90% of Giant hold, or maybe Dust.... Nothing.... You can't have everything all the time....

To add, I haven't as of yet paid a lot of attention to what the DC's are on the various mobs, how many levels are my level drains hitting for, and exactly how that is affecting my DC spells.

But I still think it's too early to write things off, perhaps it is time ot play other classes a bit mroe than casters, perhaps not.....

Maegin
09-03-2009, 10:47 PM
So far, barding has not been changed as far as a caster is concerned. I did find that a good glitterdust was good enough here and there, and im just glad that the old facinate standby still works, as opposed to last mod.

And arn't all the mobs under greater hero anyways? not to mention a couple of lvls higher than us, so it makes sense that not all of our spells land a lot. Would you rather have it be like the vale again? (rehtorical comment btw)

bobbryan2
09-04-2009, 06:52 AM
Dude as I said in my PM, I'm not having a go at you at all. I simply disagree with your evaluation that casters are worthless or next to worthelss in the new content. I see them as more than just nuke bots that must be superior, you don't.....


And see.. I play most everything: clerics, bards, lots of melees, a single caster. The falloff in Mod 9 for a caster is much much more than any other class.

This wouldn't be that bad, except for the fact that casters have generally been falling for the last 4 mods.

It just gets tiresome.

It doesn't make much nevermind to me. I'll just play a melee. The HP totals out there are so low now that being a melee has never been better. Damage taken is high, so you'll want a caster to throw down CC buffs... but that isn't fun, so I'll let some other caster do it.

Vordax
09-04-2009, 09:46 AM
And see.. I play most everything: clerics, bards, lots of melees, a single caster. The falloff in Mod 9 for a caster is much much more than any other class.

This wouldn't be that bad, except for the fact that casters have generally been falling for the last 4 mods.

It just gets tiresome.

It doesn't make much nevermind to me. I'll just play a melee. The HP totals out there are so low now that being a melee has never been better. Damage taken is high, so you'll want a caster to throw down CC buffs... but that isn't fun, so I'll let some other caster do it.

QFT, playing my melees and clerics, shelving my casters.

Vordax

Kriogen
09-04-2009, 09:51 AM
The problem with DDO is that there is no mana regeneration. Mana is limited, sword is perpetum mobile, runs 24/7, monsters are designed for "sword".

I think devs want to fix this with "at will spells" (FvS capstone like?) and etheral wands (there is a small change in this mode how you can "fire" wands). I also read somewhere that those wands could be somehow boosted based on user level (or something like that).

Question: how much DPS would be max+emp Magic Missile if speced for force damage?

lexinator
09-04-2009, 10:37 AM
New tactic = get a bard not a sorc ...


Lol exactly. Oh well, I am rocking hardcore on my melee, and am making a new high Str/Con Dorf to kick some more butt. No point in running with a Sorc now. Bards can haste and fight.... Plus I didn't really like swapping my spells out for buffs/Recon anyway. I will wait this mod out with my caster, hopefully Turbine notices the huge drop in casters and increase in melee.

I play this to have fun, and am not having it with my caster. My melee is still rocking though, and is a blast to play.

Phidius
09-04-2009, 11:09 AM
Too many people to quote and rep...

I feel bad for people who play non-WF pure casters. If you're one of those, and are having fun, then this does not apply to you.

KingOfCheese
09-04-2009, 11:19 AM
I was worried, heading into the new content, based on the posts here. But I found my sorc (currently 18) very effective. Human sorc, high hp, high UMD, twinked out gear, reasonably high DCs, mixed spells for CC, nuking, buffing. I could crowd control when needed. I could nuke down or finger mobs when needed (especially bosses and sub-bosses in terms of nuking). I found myself very survivable. Granted, its not like Gianthold or the Vale where I could kill everything before the melees got to it. But still a very valuable party member. In assembling a team, I want a caster in the group (and two or more wouldn't be a problem).

brlftz
09-04-2009, 11:58 AM
I really havent noticed it being that bad for casters.... obviously the days of soloing everything and leading the kill count are far from over, but casters were never supposed to be that powerful IMO...

Some of the new quests can be horrible for a cleric (at least until people start capping and know the quests better) and for this reason alone, a good CC caster or intimitank has never been more valuable

Im enjoying playing my main caster (only toon ive really played so far besides my cleric) of course, having evasion a min2 greataxe and a good vorpal might have something to do with it :D

Battle casters ftw... finally its true ;)

exactly. when i went in the battleground for the first time, i was soloing on my drow wiz, and defaulted to my standard outdoor area routine. it was not fun. it became obvious that new tactics were necessary, and soloing may not be in the cards. i'll figure it out eventually.

BUT...I went back in solo on my battle wiz, and ran through it like a hot knife through butter. wiz buffs, self healing, DPS spells, and a min2 great axe made it ridiculously easy. i agree with the posters saying that bards are better at buffs if that's all a party wants, but the value of a battle wiz has gone through the roof imo. esp since saving manna isn't as much of a concern now.

smatt
09-04-2009, 12:18 PM
I was worried, heading into the new content, based on the posts here. But I found my sorc (currently 18) very effective. Human sorc, high hp, high UMD, twinked out gear, reasonably high DCs, mixed spells for CC, nuking, buffing. I could crowd control when needed. I could nuke down or finger mobs when needed (especially bosses and sub-bosses in terms of nuking). I found myself very survivable. Granted, its not like Gianthold or the Vale where I could kill everything before the melees got to it. But still a very valuable party member. In assembling a team, I want a caster in the group (and two or more wouldn't be a problem).


No no you can't bo any of that... You have to try and play the old way.. Run finger run finger run finger fast fast fast go go go.... Slaughter everything everywhere all the time with almost no failure ever. Otherwise you're worthless :p

This is sarcasim.... BTW


Sorcys might be a bit of a disadvantage depending on how they're specced and waht spells they carry. Even with there faster casting times and vast SP pool.
I'm still in the yes, casters won't be as effective in the same ways as they have been in the past, which at tiems was far too effective. But IMO when things settle down a bit, and tactics are worked out... It'll be fine... For most people, some won't like it because their playstyle is unwavering. I'm not critisizing a particular playstyle.... I'm just saying that if you're inflexible in your playstyle, then you are far less likely to have fun as the game changes over time.

Thriand
09-04-2009, 12:27 PM
My sorcerer is level 20 now, and I've played through all the new quests normal through elite, I definitely don't feel useless in the new content, but if I were filling a pug I would take a melee over a caster any day.

Mod 4 and 5 may have been biased to casters but mods 1,2,6,7,9 have been completely biased to melees.

3 and 8 have been fairly balanced in my opinion.

JeffreyGator
09-04-2009, 02:10 PM
There are lots of places where pugs have wanted nothing to do with one of my casters.

There are 3 levels of paladin and 2 levels of rogue in with the 12 levels of sorc.

In the new area I don't need divine power clickies to hit the mobs with a rapier that spews curses and shattermantle or the silver short sword that paralyzes. Both of these help out the party.

As does permahaste, blur displacement GH etc. I don't need to be the instadeath king.

And I can still drop firewalls on tieflings (5-10 points of resist - wah) Scorching ray even works on them.

And as someone pointed out you can't turn around without bumping into a shrine.

The real knig of this mod isn't melee it's a cleric cause heals are pretty darn important in the new stuff.

Pyromaniac
09-06-2009, 10:45 AM
The falloff in Mod 9 for a caster is much much more than any other class.

This wouldn't be that bad, except for the fact that casters have generally been falling for the last 4 mods.

It just gets tiresome.

It doesn't make much nevermind to me. I'll just play a melee. The HP totals out there are so low now that being a melee has never been better. Damage taken is high, so you'll want a caster to throw down CC buffs... but that isn't fun, so I'll let some other caster do it.

QFT - My sorc is now pretty much going to retire. I don't like the sorc as a support class playstyle, I'd rather play a melee bard if I'm going to be a haste bot.

Let someone else play the caster imo, boring class now.

Pyromaniac
09-06-2009, 10:48 AM
So how do you reply to all the bards who say:
Boo hoo hoo, I'm helpless, I got nuthin.
I can't Web, Fog, Drain, or Stone. Of course I have no FW or Polar Ray. The module gave me no new spells, and these new mobs are mostly immune to charm even.

I'd say roll a bard who can melee?

smatt
09-06-2009, 12:11 PM
QFT - My sorc is now pretty much going to retire. I don't like the sorc as a support class playstyle, I'd rather play a melee bard if I'm going to be a haste bot.

Let someone else play the caster imo, boring class now.


Last night... New content hard/elite sorcy webbed, displaced hasted, enervated (NOT level drain) from scorlls fingered key mobs with no problem occasion acid fog, and firewall depending on mobs.... All very effective... Smoked through new content quests in no time.

Ya, I guess hot keyed finger only sorcys who are too lazy to level drain or enervate/level drain first are in fact worthless now.... :D

In Edit... I'm thinking that the sarcasim might be be missed... Bards have far more of a case IMO. Sure sorcy's may not be the center of teh DDO universe anymore. But as many have said to me in game while discussing this... A few different tactics, a drop of the ego down a few notches and they do just. Non-melee bards on the other hand... Well things could be a bit mroe boring for them......

Aspenor
09-06-2009, 12:58 PM
Personally, I can't imagine why a caster that's actually in a party would bother to cast FoD on anything. Group up some monsters and drop an Energy Drain, and ignore them. It's not like they're going to be hurting anything, leave them to the melees.

Sure, arcane spell casters may not have turned into the equal of the PnP counterparts, but did we really expect them to? Having a good caster makes any quest go easier.

Use spells with no save, and spells the monster in question is most susceptible to. Expecting to be able to run around insta-killing or nuking everything to dust is irrational.

smatt
09-06-2009, 01:04 PM
Personally, I can't imagine why a caster that's actually in a party would bother to cast FoD on anything. Group up some monsters and drop an Energy Drain, and ignore them. It's not like they're going to be hurting anything, leave them to the melees.

Sure, arcane spell casters may not have turned into the equal of the PnP counterparts, but did we really expect them to? Having a good caster makes any quest go easier.

Use spells with no save, and spells the monster in question is most susceptible to. Expecting to be able to run around insta-killing or nuking everything to dust is irrational.


No sir, some mobs such as bell ringer/cleric/caster tieflings need to be dispossed of quikly.... As well as air ele's... It's just that finger is no longer the super-duper easy button ego stroker it used to be....

But yes, casters are still an integral part of an effective fast moving party... They just aren't the center of the universe that require all to carry thier caps and clip their god-like toenails anymore. (More Sarcasim) :)

Aspenor
09-06-2009, 01:07 PM
No sir, some mobs such as bell ringer/cleric/caster tieflings need to be dispossed of quikly.... As well as air ele's... It's just that finger is no longer the super-duper easy button ego stroker it used to be....

But yes, casters are still an integral part of an effective fast moving party... They just aren't the center of the universe that require all to carry thier caps and clip their god-like toenails anymore. (More Sarcasim) :)

Those are only circumstantial times, of course some monsters need to be disposed of quickly, but not many. Air elementals are the one monster that a caster of some type is nearly required to kill (note I said nearly).

But yes, gone are the days of Mod 5 where there was no reason to play anything but an arcane spellcaster, and I think the game is better for it.

Ganidel
09-06-2009, 01:14 PM
Irresistable dance, wave of exhaustion and Invisibility are your best friends in this new mod, use invis on your self and cleric, makes a world of difference.
Might have to teach the cleric how to stay invis, like no clicking on a chest untell its open, letting others open gates and letting others talk to npcs.

Enlarge it great for irresisable dance also.

Mindspat
09-06-2009, 01:22 PM
So how do you reply to all the bards who say:
Boo hoo hoo, I'm helpless, I got nuthin.
I can't Web, Fog, Drain, or Stone. Of course I have no FW or Polar Ray. The module gave me no new spells, and these new mobs are mostly immune to charm even.


Web needs a high DC. Not having the spell just means they won't watch things ignore it.

Fog, Bards can cast displacement. Displacement gives a 50% chance for a hit to miss. Why bother casting a fog that others forget to fight in when a displacement does it better!

Enervate & Energy Drain. Enervate is on scrolls. Clerics get Energy Drain.

Wall of Fire, this has extremely limited use in the new high level content.

Polar Ray, a decent bard who can melee will make up for it in overall DPS. If you're playing the Bard as something that never melee's it might be beneficial to see what options there are to do dmg. Just 'cs it might not be a DPS build does not mean you can't melee - just need proper gear.

what's wrong with your songs? If you're playing a Bard why aren't you playing your lute? Lock the **** down and have the party pick it off 1 by 1.

Enervate and FtS are on scrolls, no? (bard + haggle + scrolls = unlimited pool of spells to use)

Mindspat
09-06-2009, 01:29 PM
Too many people to quote and rep...

I feel bad for people who play non-WF pure casters. If you're one of those, and are having fun, then this does not apply to you.

BS.

Warforged Casters are equally problematic. Too many of them are NOT friendly to Clerics and don't know how to keep themselves repaired. Half of the time there's an issue with a Caster these days I happen to notice they are also a Warforged. Being that "my other main is a Cleric" (that should be a t-shirt!) I'm noticing it to be more and more common.

The worst of them all is the melee non-healer friendly Warforged who insist on tanking but don't bother bringing Reconstruct Scrolls for the Bards or Arcane. It's almost as bad as a Paly with 2 layonhands, no dps, that dies 10 times without consuming a single spell point.

bandyman1
09-08-2009, 01:16 PM
I can't really imagine part II of the raid without max/empowered FW, DBFs, and SRays.
In an effort to avoid spoiling for those who haven't ran it, that's about all I'm gonna say.

Please note; I'm not saying it can't be done, just not sure why you'd want to do it :confused:.

Pyromaniac
09-09-2009, 10:30 PM
I can't really imagine part II of the raid without max/empowered FW, DBFs, and SRays.

Please note; I'm not saying it can't be done, just not sure why you'd want to do it :confused:.

Because hardly anybody in your raid group wants to play their sorc or wizard? You don't really need those spells in the end raid part 2...DPS away!

Pyromaniac
09-09-2009, 10:31 PM
But yes, casters are still an integral part of an effective fast moving party... They just aren't the center of the universe that require all to carry thier caps and clip their god-like toenails anymore. (More Sarcasim) :)

Hey for those who like to play their casters primarily as support toons, more power to them, I'll be meleeing. I already see comments like 'Ok, who's bringing a haster?....then silence...."

I've moved on from the concern about 'casters are dead', and am now thinking about just deleting my sorc once and for all. I don't have fun in a support toon role, and will leave it to others to do so.

Riggs
09-09-2009, 10:50 PM
Points on both sides.

However fort saves are still too high. it should not take 6 spells to kill something that 2 levels lower it only took 1 spell. 3? ok.

Fort saves also make the monk abilities utterly useless like quivering palm and stunning fist. Landing stuff 50% of the time at level 16 vs say 5% (rolling a 1 only) at level 18 is not balanced at all.

Like I said in other posts about ac and to hit - players got 4 levels to play with - monsters got 15 levels.

Everyone was excited about the new spells for months - and basically only energy drain is useful...in new content. But really who cares that wail of the banshee is awesome in lower level areas you hadnt planned on running anymore? (but have to anyway because the xp sucks in mod 9).

Going up 4 levels monsters should have gotten 4, maybe a bit more in their saves, but they have gotten way more than a 4 level increase in everything (tieflings are trash and dont count, devils are the main enemy).

Sad.

Riggs
09-09-2009, 10:53 PM
Hey for those who like to play their casters primarily as support toons, more power to them, I'll be meleeing. I already see comments like 'Ok, who's bringing a haster?....then silence...."

I've moved on from the concern about 'casters are dead', and am now thinking about just deleting my sorc once and for all. I don't have fun in a support toon role, and will leave it to others to do so.

The game has swung way overbalanced in favor of casters back to mod 1 days.

"Ok buff and haste and dont try any funny stuff like dps, you will just draw agro away from the tanks who can actually kill stuff".

Yeah there are ways to make casters useful, and some spells will still be decent dps. But a 'tank' can land dps and either have hp or ac to avoid some of the backlash, casters have displacement....but with half the hp and a 3rd the ac.

Anyone all excited now about the sorc capstone? "Woot 10% more damage....when your stuck casting non-damage spells most of the time anyway...."

Twerpp
09-09-2009, 10:56 PM
Quit whining, give us a fresh haste and keep up the fogs plz.

bandyman1
09-09-2009, 11:48 PM
Because hardly anybody in your raid group wants to play their sorc or wizard? You don't really need those spells in the end raid part 2...DPS away!

Like I said; I'm not saying you need them.

I'm just saying it's far easier ( and you know what I'm talking about ), because of the sheer amount of firepower a good caster can dump so quickly. Max/emp FW, SRay, DBF and call it a day. Sure you can DPS away. But your clerics are spending a lot more resourses than they probably want to.

Energy Drain/Enervate + FtS works well on parts one and three. A Fire Shielded caster with Energy Drain/Enervate + FoD > than any fire ele. Helps when they can ignore curses while healing WFed as well.

If you don't want to run your caster, by all means don't.

But to say they aren't useful is just BS. Sorry.

Bilger
09-10-2009, 12:59 AM
So far have capped my CC/Heal Bard to 20 and am 40k xp from my wiz capping.

The Bard was easier by far and alot funner to play. The caster is fun to play but is getting boring fast. Web, Fog and kill clerics, elementals, or enemy casters.

Casters are being limited to CC and some killing and is fine but boring as heck.

Yes, playing my caster has made alot of quests easy and I can not just blast my way through content like before. I just feel very limited to what can do to be a effective member of party. So I do what I can and get the quest done.

IMO we will find ways to be more helpful as mod goes on and new stuff comes out but atm a caster's life is a boring one. Bard is alot funner and more helpful to the group atm but a well played caster can be very effective, be it somewhat boring to play.

smatt
09-10-2009, 11:51 AM
OK, so Samahdi and Pyro certainly have a point........ For thsoe that liked to play Sorcys, when they were the all powerful basically unlimited mana killing machines, the new content simpy doesn't offer that option very easily anymore. I'm not critisizing that playstyle at all, but the game did need to move away from that aspect IMO. It was tilted far to far in that direction, with even clerics being in on the mix as well, with destruction, slay living, and BB all in the mix as fast effective killers far more that any possible melee method. Mind you I know there's always exceptions, I like to ignore the uber elite players who're always seem to chime in about how awesome they are, and that they personally can do this or that. I'm talking the middle of the bell curve here.

The game has moved on from the only worthwhile spells in MOST quests being finger and PK.... It would be very difficult to balance the game for all the classes to have a cookie, while leaving mob saves so low that casters could just finger their way through quests. It's sad that some find playing top of the heap insta-kill casters unappealing. I don't like to see anybodies fun taken away, but looking at it with the big picture across the entire player population, there's always going to be some unhappy people when the game moves from their particular or preferred playstyle. And from what I'm seeing so far this Mod has found a good balance allowing the vast majority of classes to be more useful than not. But I strongly disagree with the statement "Casters are dead...." Insta-kill one trick pony casters are indead not the shizbot in the new stuff no doubt.... But resourceful, versatile, casters that are willing to not be on the top of the heap all the time have a huge roll in making things far easier for parties to be successful. It's unfrotunate that the Devs moved the game so far into one classes/playstyles court, theyv'e doen it repeatedly with different classes, and it always leads ****ed off players when it tilts back the other way.

If players are unhappy about how a class is playing right now, then put it on the shelf, and just wait a bit or maybe a LONG bit considering Turbine development cycles as of late :eek:. It WILL come back in vogue soon enough :o

transtemporal
09-10-2009, 05:40 PM
I similarly noticed my greensteel-less sorc wasn't hugely effective in the new content (while my melees were very effective) but I have a feeling with max possible cha, greensteel cha stick, max spell pen and a couple more levels that he'll be back to peak performance.

We're just in the period of "mod-adaption" where we find the optimum way of dealing with the new content. Give it a few weeks. :)

Kalari
09-10-2009, 05:52 PM
I think I will probably be grinding out more items for my wizard to though I do feel effective in there since I mainly focus on debuffing and immobilizing mobs anyway. I guess I was kinda hoping by the time our casters got to high levels there would be something else for them, scribing our own scrolls creating rods or wands ahh well I know my casters will still get play in the new content so dont think they are dead just yet.

transtemporal
09-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Warforged Casters are equally problematic. Too many of them are NOT friendly to Clerics and don't know how to keep themselves repaired. Half of the time there's an issue with a Caster these days I happen to notice they are also a Warforged. Being that "my other main is a Cleric" (that should be a t-shirt!) I'm noticing it to be more and more common.

The worst of them all is the melee non-healer friendly Warforged who insist on tanking but don't bother bringing Reconstruct Scrolls for the Bards or Arcane. It's almost as bad as a Paly with 2 layonhands, no dps, that dies 10 times without consuming a single spell point.

"My main is a cleric." Thats definitely t-shirt material. :)

Maybe those pally's are doorstop builds? :D

BlackSteel
09-10-2009, 06:38 PM
Ran Genesis Point the other night on my 17 Wiz. When we got to the part where people were running through the maze, I went up to the control room to throw the switches and dealt with all of the respawning orthons on my own. If they appeared one at a time, I'd throw an Enervation and FoD, which took care of about 80% of them without needing to toss another spell. If they appeared in 2s, I'd either hit them with Mass Hold (worked about 50% of the time), or I'd throw down a dancing ball and kite them through it until both stuck, then, in either case, I'd beat them down with a Dreamspitter. Went through a bunch of orthons with no real problem.


I've ran this several times now with a cleric and 5 melees, everyone takes turns using Haste shroud clickies and the quest is a walk thru.

For the control room, I typically go up there solo on my Frenzy Barb and just bop the orthons over the head. 5 seconds and done.

Not that I dont like casters, its just for some reason I've had a hard time finding them to join. I would gather its b/c they feel useless in the content. Cant Finger reliabley, cant shoot off a huge AoE w/o grabbing the attention of 5-6 devils. Fog is currently broken, and web isnt doing great either. The most common practice I've seen is to run around the skirts of battle and dance mobs.

Pyromaniac
09-14-2009, 07:06 PM
Well after a few more days, I've seen only a handful of useful spells in the new mod. And other guildees are starting to figure out that arcane casters (aka buffbots/cc) aren't nearly as fun to play in mod 9.

Now the Tower lfm's read "looking for caster", hoping we get one of you guys who love to play their casters in mod 9. The only slot almost as hard to find is bard, and its not even close...

Pyromaniac
09-14-2009, 07:09 PM
But to say they aren't useful is just BS. Sorry.

You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.

Vordax
09-15-2009, 02:01 AM
You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.

My 2 casters have been shelved, used to be my first choice now its my last, one has 1 action point into 17 the other I just raised to 17th 2 days ago. On the other hand my ranger mix is capped at 20 and can solo every named in the battlefield without any issues. He is my new "sorc" now (i.e. fun to play character).

Vordax

bandyman1
09-15-2009, 05:02 AM
You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.

But you didn't give me a reason. It basicly boiled down to you didn't want to play yours, so that's why you wouldn't want one.

Spoilers be damned;

Web/Fog is the best CC currently in the game vs. multiple devils, provided you have high enough DCs. With a year to run the Shroud, Hound, and VoD, you shouldn't be having trouble in that department. If you are, then you might want to take another look at your caster. /shrugs

Part one: Fireshield+Protect+Resist. Basicly immune to the eles. And your Energy Drain + FOD drops them faster than ANY melee. Plus it allows your melees to concentrate on the Judge, where their focus should be, if you want to save the clerics resourses, and yourself time. Hounds? Energy Drain + FTS makes nice statues for your clerics to hide behind when the Devil decides to tele in for a surprise beatdown. Kind of nice when your recos go off for full on WFed tanks regardless of weather they're cursed or not too.

Part two: If you don't think that one to two casters spamming max/empowered FW, SRay, and DBF kills shadowfiends far more quickly and efficiently than any group of uber melees, than you and those you run with are gimped arcanes, or you have no clue what you're talking about. Take your pick ;). It's also absurdly easy to FW the stairs leading up to the platform ( A sure fire way to grab agro from any shadow fiends closing in on the party ), and kite the spawns while the clerics worry about keeping up the melees, who're also free to give the Pit fiend their undevided attention.

PS: Your clerics probably hate you :D.

Part three: Most parties aren't going for extra chests. Energy Drain + FTS the Orthos. Reconstruct any WFed. Makes for a nice controlled fight, and an easy win.


Like I said man;
Don't want to play your caster? Don't.
Don't think they're necessary? They aren't. But neither is a bard, barb, ranger, cleric, ect, ect.

Pyromaniac
09-15-2009, 05:11 AM
But you didn't give me a reason. It basicly boiled down to you didn't want to play yours, so that's why you wouldn't want one.

Actually nobody in my full guild tower raid group wanted to play one...

FluffyCalico
09-15-2009, 05:17 AM
Actually nobody in my full guild tower raid group wanted to play one...

Well I think you might be confusing 2 things also.

Melee are more gear dependant. Most people realise that. For that reason I took my melee out into the new area first. 1 of them is capped the others are at 18. They all have all the named loot out there they want short of the raid rings.

Next I took out my main cleric and have gotten it everyting except the bauble.

While I work on getting it the baubble and my other melees to 20 I am just now starting to run my casters out there. Its not that I like them less its that I was afriad the loot drop rate would be nerfed soon and my melee needed specific named items out there.

winsom
09-15-2009, 08:54 AM
My wizard's first impression of the new battleground content was: Are monsters immune to All Control now ?!

It was not fun to see tieflings in Weapon Shipment seemingly immune to Fog slowdown and Dancing Ball spells. Does everything have freedom of movement and immune to mental control these days?

How boring it will be if my best Control is heightened Web, the old 2nd level spell.

DC 34 spells used to be worth something, at least if Fort wasnt landing well I would switch to Will saves and do fine. Now it seems that only Reflex saves are working well, or I have to use No Save spells. That is very limiting and boring. But I'm trying to see it as a challenge. Then again I've mostly been playing my bard. Hmmm !

Hopefully my first impression with Weapon Shipment's super-tieflings on NORMAL is not representative of all the new content.

I've been playing my bard/rogue a lot more. Almost 19th. Buffing and Healing is always useful and her Fascinate song is actually the best control I've seen in there.. Perhaps the "bard is just better" situation is why my wizard only recently got enough exp to get within reach of 18th, a full level behind my bard.

smatt
09-15-2009, 10:50 AM
You asked why I wouldn't want a caster, I gave you the reason. My caster is now my last option of character to play in the new raid, as it is for a lot of players. So when the choice is to take a non-caster guildee over a pug caster - I'd run with no caster at all. Bard for the win.

Useful - can be, Necessary - no, Desireable to play - no.


I think your attitude might change when the first bug fix comes along..... :eek:

Shade
09-15-2009, 11:09 AM
I think it might be true that poorly equiped or just poorly played casters are dead may be true.

But ones that know what there at, are just as effective as ever.

Just did Sins of Attrition hard the other night on my sorc, lvl19.

Group was ranger, fighter, fighter, paladin, cleric, me - drow sorc.

At first I was assuming my kill spells wouldnt work well, so I just CC'd the first few fights.. Was able to web almost everything.

About the third fight I tried a wail of the banshee.. I killed 4 mobs at once. Was like wow..

After that, I still did a web in every fight, but after that I casted tons of wails..

Ended up with about 70 kills, more then everyone else in the group except the paladin who was slightly ahead, he was a well equiped lvl20 KoTC DPS build tho.

I think now at 20, with my new DC40 wail of the banshee, if I go on normal.. No melee could come close to my killing speed.

Even on elite I can kill about 1 outa 4 with wail.. So long as I cast it with 4+ mobs around, its a very effecient spell.

Samadhi
09-15-2009, 11:25 AM
The lack of reading comprehension skills of some players had me abandoning this thread for a bit, but I thought I would pop back in since it is still alive. Welcome to the forums ;)

Casters are not dead, despite my initial supposition. Just wizards are (and those without max DC's). Most of my initial thoughts in this thread were based off playing my wizard, since due to spell versatility, he was the easy choice to take into new content first. The lack of spells sticking made him obsolete to really accomplish much. Since then, I have run both my sorcs more through the new stuff (one conjuration spec'd and one enchantment spec'd).

The conjuration spec'd sorc is rocking. Web + Trap the Soul => Win. However, the wizard would not be able to accomplish as much as the sorc. Where this sorc used to only need one really awesome web to hold mobs, now I typically would want 3-4 if I want them all to stick. The sorc mana pool therefore becomes more relevant - and wizard "versatility" is left behind since I'm primarily only using a couple spells (those I'm focused in) anyway.

The enchantment sorc is lagging behind a little bit. Mass hold monster is not the cure-all I thought it would be, although mass charm monster isn't too bad, it doesn't last long. I've actually found myself nuking a bit more as well. Traditionally, I always preferred more CC spec'd sorcs to nuker builds, but the lower HP in some of the new stuff does make some old school AOE's useful again.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-15-2009, 11:50 AM
Only got to page three on this and got bored.

I've been working on my main char mostly, but couldn't get on to Thelanis the other day, so I logged onto Argo and decided to give my CC Sorc a run at the new content.

Wow!
I was disappointed.

Now, she's an Elf, not a Drow. No Shroud item. No +3 tomes. I think she has only a 32 Cha.
But she's got both Enchantment feats, both Spell Pen feats and all the spell pen enhancments.

And I think I can only get spells to land if they roll a 1 on their saves.....or so it seems. :(

Well, their might be a couple ways to improve that, and when I make 18+ I'll have 9th lvl spells to heighten up to.

Ok, so I've still got Otto's. Cool. (spell pen has not felt like a real problem to me, it's the saves)
I go into a quest and find out that those cleaving/wirlwinding Orthons and my squishy butt are not mixing well at all.
I died three times in the first ten min of the dungeon (maybe the fist five min).

Well, I didn't have any stoneskin wands at the time, and was too impatient to make sure I was displaced before closing to range.
Anyway, I'm sure I can find a few tactics to cope with this.

But wow. It's going to take some serious adjustment for me to feel useful again.

I've gone from being able to neuter an army in seconds to feeling like a useless cripple.

/cry

smatt
09-15-2009, 07:58 PM
The lack of reading comprehension skills of some players had me abandoning this thread for a bit, but I thought I would pop back in since it is still alive. Welcome to the forums ;)

Casters are not dead, despite my initial supposition. Just wizards are (and those without max DC's). Most of my initial thoughts in this thread were based off playing my wizard, since due to spell versatility, he was the easy choice to take into new content first. The lack of spells sticking made him obsolete to really accomplish much. Since then, I have run both my sorcs more through the new stuff (one conjuration spec'd and one enchantment spec'd).

The conjuration spec'd sorc is rocking. Web + Trap the Soul => Win. However, the wizard would not be able to accomplish as much as the sorc. Where this sorc used to only need one really awesome web to hold mobs, now I typically would want 3-4 if I want them all to stick. The sorc mana pool therefore becomes more relevant - and wizard "versatility" is left behind since I'm primarily only using a couple spells (those I'm focused in) anyway.

The enchantment sorc is lagging behind a little bit. Mass hold monster is not the cure-all I thought it would be, although mass charm monster isn't too bad, it doesn't last long. I've actually found myself nuking a bit more as well. Traditionally, I always preferred more CC spec'd sorcs to nuker builds, but the lower HP in some of the new stuff does make some old school AOE's useful again.

No Sam, reading comprehension is fine... Suffering through posts from whiny little crybabies isn't ;) . And ya Sorcys still have one up as far as insta-killing stuff, simply from the mana pool and most other apects. But a well played wizzy, withthe right spells at the right times is cool too,and sometimes can be more useful..... SOMETIMES......

It's all about adjusting playstyle, and tactics...

Samadhi
09-15-2009, 11:18 PM
No Sam, reading comprehension is fine... Suffering through posts from whiny little crybabies isn't ;) . And ya Sorcys still have one up as far as insta-killing stuff, simply from the mana pool and most other apects. But a well played wizzy, withthe right spells at the right times is cool too,and sometimes can be more useful..... SOMETIMES......

It's all about adjusting playstyle, and tactics...

If by page 8, you still haven't picked up on the fact that, starting on page 1, I specifically stated that I was not talking about instakill (and have repeatedly emphasized that I am mostly talking about crowd control not any type of mob killing) - then I really don't know what to tell you.

smatt
09-15-2009, 11:32 PM
If by page 8, you still haven't picked up on the fact that, starting on page 1, I specifically stated that I was not talking about instakill (and have repeatedly emphasized that I am mostly talking about crowd control not any type of mob killing) - then I really don't know what to tell you.


naw man, I understood what you were saying...... I was replying to the fact that you were saying in general terms taht casters were dead all the way around. Sure, I singled out insta-kill sorcy's as an example of a particular playstyle that would be affected some what. I agree tha all types of casters ahve been affected. I simply have said all along that their roles would change a bit, that they wern't dead, even insta-kills. The game would be a little harder than it was before. But as people found new tactics, tried new spells, leveled up etc. It wouldn't be the dooooooommmmm....... you and some others were making it out to be. Casters were fun for soem people to paly because once you learned how to play a caster it was easier than playing a melee.... Now that casters aren't AS effective as they were all the time.... Melees are a bit more appealing to some....


So in fact, I think perhaps you missed my point from my first replys...... Give it some time..... It's not THAT bad..... Not even for Wizzys.......

Duratan99
09-15-2009, 11:35 PM
In the game of D&D melee characters are gods at the lower levels, but at some point the casters take over. This isn't the case in DDO anymore. I only log into my sorc to farm xc, blood stones, shroud, vod, hound, ect... now.

I use to feel like a god on my Sorc, now I don't feel like i'm anything but a haste/buff bot. They have turned casters into bards that can't heal, or melee dps -.-/.

I'm now rolling a melee because instead of being uber at the lower levels, i'll be uber all the time.

spyderwolf
09-15-2009, 11:49 PM
trap the soul goes off more than 50% of the time on normal. casters have to get out of the habit of fort save spells and feelign liek god and go back to dpsing. you can dps and cc(will save stuff) effectively. on hard and elite, its suppsoed to be challenging.

tinyelvis
09-18-2009, 01:00 AM
Well its good to see that there is a lot less whining here and a lot more folks are starting to see how massively effective casters can be in the new content. Sure, lame caster are lamer in the new content, but well spec'd well played casters still dominate. Many of those lame casters seem to be shelving their toons out of frustration.

Well played casters often play the most important role in the party. Two casters by themselves can easily run any elite quest in the battle field (or game for that matter). That really was not the case before mod 9. I prefer to have at least two self sufficient casters in every party. I don't like taking more than 2 melee since they seem to accumulate so much damage, and cause more stress on the cleric. No one in mod 9 should need to resort to pots or scrolls on a regular basis. The role of the melee is usually to finish off stoned, held, or dancing mobs. As well as beat on portals and kill trash mobs in end fight so that the caster can finish off the boss. Sometimes, the opposite strat is used.

I still hold to my prediction that casters are so uber in mod 9 that a nerf will be short in coming. Hell, ninety percent of the top end trash content is easily enchanted even on elite,..... the rest is easily stoned. My gosh imagine how massive we will be if they ever fix the sorc capstone.

CrimsonFalcon03
09-19-2009, 02:40 PM
I'm glad to see that Turbine is finnally starting to nerf casters somewhat in the new content. As a meleer, the past 3 Mods have had nothing for us to do really except stand at the quest entrance polishing our weapons while the casters run the entire dungeon solo destroying anything in front of them. The game in the past few mods has become one-dimensional, you have 2 choices to play either a clc whose only job is to follow the casters as a portable refilling station for mana, or a caster with maximized, empower, heigtened, insta-kills and nukes; and if you don't play either of those two roles then your character is just simply gimped and no one wants to run with anyone who is not a caster or clc making the rest of the character classes just fillers or fodder.

Vordax
09-19-2009, 04:11 PM
I'm glad to see that Turbine is finnally starting to nerf casters somewhat in the new content. As a meleer, the past 3 Mods have had nothing for us to do really except stand at the quest entrance polishing our weapons while the casters run the entire dungeon solo destroying anything in front of them. The game in the past few mods has become one-dimensional, you have 2 choices to play either a clc whose only job is to follow the casters as a portable refilling station for mana, or a caster with maximized, empower, heigtened, insta-kills and nukes; and if you don't play either of those two roles then your character is just simply gimped and no one wants to run with anyone who is not a caster or clc making the rest of the character classes just fillers or fodder.

Nerfed? They have been castrated. I can kill everything on the battlefield solo with my ranger, maybe use a few heal scrolls in the process and never need to shrine. I doubt there is a single caster than can do anywhere close to this without shrining.

Vordax

bobbryan2
09-19-2009, 04:16 PM
I'm glad to see that Turbine is finnally starting to nerf casters somewhat in the new content. As a meleer, the past 3 Mods have had nothing for us to do really except stand at the quest entrance polishing our weapons while the casters run the entire dungeon solo destroying anything in front of them. The game in the past few mods has become one-dimensional, you have 2 choices to play either a clc whose only job is to follow the casters as a portable refilling station for mana, or a caster with maximized, empower, heigtened, insta-kills and nukes; and if you don't play either of those two roles then your character is just simply gimped and no one wants to run with anyone who is not a caster or clc making the rest of the character classes just fillers or fodder.

"As a meleer," your opinion matters very little. Just like I find people's opinions very suspect when they start out, "as a caster."

People that only play one type of character often lack the perspective to appreciate game balance. Casters have been powerful in the past, yes... but the fact that you think the last 3 mods have catered to casters shows your extreme bias, because, every mod since mod 5 have been ramping up melee strengths.

It was actually the 2 mods before the last three that catered to casters. I almost ceased to play my melees after mod 4, and it wasn't until mod 6 that they were useful doing something again.

adamkatt
09-19-2009, 05:11 PM
Seriously. I hope I am wrong

You are, i just logged into my sorc and he was still alive.

smatt
09-20-2009, 10:52 AM
"As a meleer," your opinion matters very little. Just like I find people's opinions very suspect when they start out, "as a caster."

People that only play one type of character often lack the perspective to appreciate game balance. Casters have been powerful in the past, yes... but the fact that you think the last 3 mods have catered to casters shows your extreme bias, because, every mod since mod 5 have been ramping up melee strengths.

It was actually the 2 mods before the last three that catered to casters. I almost ceased to play my melees after mod 4, and it wasn't until mod 6 that they were useful doing something again.


You see here's where's i see the problems with people who complain about classes being gimped by Mods. Yes the power curve or effectivness curve of a class ebbs and flows. But when I see people say, well in Mod so and so I gave up on that class... Well what that shows IMO, is the lack of will to simply adapt their toons to the tasks at hand and perform the tasks and play their toons in the best possible role. I understand that some people like to play in very distinct ways, and sometimes that dicatates that they simply won't have fun filling any role that might not be within there particular niche role they have fun playing. In the end, while there's nothing wrong with such things, IMO this is what leads people to have less fun overall within the game as it changes, and rotates through-out the classes. So what really happens is people lack of willingness to adapt to the game ends up bing a self-gimpign exercise...... It also leads to a much more biased opinion just as Sam showed at the beggining of the thread. He said casters were dead, well then just as I said would happen, he came back a couple weeks later, and said well Sorcys are OK, it's wizzys that are dead.... I still disagree, they're just not the super-duper-I'm-so-uber toons they were.... As if Wizzys ever really were that to begin with.... They're just different but can fill a very important role when played creatively, and can be fun to some at least....


it's all good people have fun in their own ways... But always blaming the gaem for gimping classes is a very narrow minded approach, when really it's the players playstyles and unwillingness to adapt that most often gimps or nerfs classes.

tinyelvis
09-20-2009, 05:44 PM
Nerfed? They have been castrated. I can kill everything on the battlefield solo with my ranger, maybe use a few heal scrolls in the process and never need to shrine. I doubt there is a single caster than can do anywhere close to this without shrining.

Vordax

I can cast the spell mm. I bet there is no ranger that can do that. Did you not realize until mod 9 that different classes can do things that other classes cannot do? Also, I can solo kill everything with my caster on the battle field faster than your ranger.

I definitely believe things have changed for casters in Mod 9. They got a whole heck of a lot easier. And questing with good casters means that melees dont stand around anymore while casters finger everything. Now they can do the important job of beating down portals and finishing off charmed, stoned, or dancing mobs. They have a reason to quest with casters now. Just don't take too many melees or else they stress out the healer. For any quest at most you need one or two good melees for some thats even a hindrance.

I predict that casters will be nerfed soon. Its not taking long for others on my server to start mimicking my tactics. I see other good caster tactics by knowledgable folks too. I am sure these will spread to other servers soon. In a couple more weeks or perhaps a month or so melees will start to whine. That will be the indication that caster nerfs are coming. I also predict that the first caster nerf will come before they even bother to Fix the Non-funcioning Sorcerer Capstone.

Vordax
09-20-2009, 06:30 PM
I can cast the spell mm. I bet there is no ranger that can do that. Did you not realize until mod 9 that different classes can do things that other classes cannot do? Also, I can solo kill everything with my caster on the battle field faster than your ranger.


I wonder how many magic missiles it takes to take out the red named horned devil on the battlefield.

Vordax

tinyelvis
09-20-2009, 06:48 PM
I wonder how many magic missiles it takes to take out the red named horned devil on the battlefield.

Vordax

I would guess about 60 casts which i can do in as many seconds. How quick can you kill him with a +1 longsword?

Now of course I'd rather cast 6 to 8 polar rays in 15 to 21 seconds. Plus, I can do that from the safety of a tower. You of course claim you don't even need a heal scroll, even though you will probably encounter 6 or so rare bosses to fight. Pretty good for a squishy ranger. Who do we think is exaggerating (cough...liar) ?

Vordax
09-20-2009, 10:46 PM
I would guess about 60 casts which i can do in as many seconds. How quick can you kill him with a +1 longsword?

Now of course I'd rather cast 6 to 8 polar rays in 15 to 21 seconds. Plus, I can do that from the safety of a tower. You of course claim you don't even need a heal scroll, even though you will probably encounter 6 or so rare bosses to fight. Pretty good for a squishy ranger. Who do we think is exaggerating (cough...liar) ?

So can you kill 3-6 named and all the mobs on the way without shrining?

The red named horned devil gets me to about half before its dead (without using exploitive terrain). I will probably use a heal scroll after that.

The red named pit fiend usually takes a scroll or 2 in the middle of the fight as does the red named troll.

The rest just vorp or smite, in all I use 0-3 heals scrolls in a pass through the battlefield and don't need to shrine, how about you?

Vordax

sephiroth1084
09-21-2009, 02:09 AM
I can cast the spell mm. I bet there is no ranger that can do that. Did you not realize until mod 9 that different classes can do things that other classes cannot do? Also, I can solo kill everything with my caster on the battle field faster than your ranger.

I definitely believe things have changed for casters in Mod 9. They got a whole heck of a lot easier. And questing with good casters means that melees dont stand around anymore while casters finger everything. Now they can do the important job of beating down portals and finishing off charmed, stoned, or dancing mobs. They have a reason to quest with casters now. Just don't take too many melees or else they stress out the healer. For any quest at most you need one or two good melees for some thats even a hindrance.

I predict that casters will be nerfed soon. Its not taking long for others on my server to start mimicking my tactics. I see other good caster tactics by knowledgable folks too. I am sure these will spread to other servers soon. In a couple more weeks or perhaps a month or so melees will start to whine. That will be the indication that caster nerfs are coming. I also predict that the first caster nerf will come before they even bother to Fix the Non-funcioning Sorcerer Capstone.

Casters did get nerfed. And HARD! Dance? Stone? Charm? Sure, maybe after an Energy Drain or two. Whoops! Not only do all the monsters save about 85+% of the time (even on their "weak" saves) against anything a caster throws, many also have immunity to most of the above.

Ramping up saves a bit is all well and good, but my capped wizard is 2 points away from having the highest Int in the game (42), barring consumables (like the store +2 stat pots), and can't land anything. Monsters even running through my Webs as though I had laid down tissue paper. I can throw 3 or 4 Mass Hold Monster into a group of 5 or 6 tieflings, devils, hellhounds and bezekira, and maybe get 1 or 2 held monsters (and that's with spell focus). Nothing fails against FoD or Wail, not even enemy casters.

Stuff runs right through dancing ball. Acid and Solid fog are either bugged or have had their slow effects dramatically nerfed--had some trolls run through an acid fog in about 2 seconds (they took just 1 tic of damage).

So, every spell a caster wants to have land requires 50 SP tacked onto it. And even, the spell won't necessarily go through. And most of the dangerous stuff out there is immune to the best damage spells (firewall, Meteor Swarm, DBF), and have too many HP to DPS down efficiently.

I have no idea how any casual casters are going to survive out here!

The only spell I've found to be really worth casting is Prismatic Spray, just because I seem almost guaranteed to get some beneficial effect at each casting if I hit 3+ creatures (fear, flesh to stone, disappear, huge damage, stun), and even then I sometimes see 5 of those little blue "I MADE IT!" symbols pop up as all the monsters make their saves against I don't know what.

I tried denying it. I tried playing through it. But having reached level 20, and picked up 4 more Int, I can safely say that casters got hit something fierce with the nerf bat.

tinyelvis
09-21-2009, 04:36 AM
Casters did get nerfed. And HARD! Dance? Stone? Charm? Sure, maybe after an Energy Drain or two. Whoops! Not only do all the monsters save about 85+% of the time (even on their "weak" saves) against anything a caster throws, many also have immunity to most of the above.

Ramping up saves a bit is all well and good, but my capped wizard is 2 points away from having the highest Int in the game (42), barring consumables (like the store +2 stat pots), and can't land anything. Monsters even running through my Webs as though I had laid down tissue paper. I can throw 3 or 4 Mass Hold Monster into a group of 5 or 6 tieflings, devils, hellhounds and bezekira, and maybe get 1 or 2 held monsters (and that's with spell focus). Nothing fails against FoD or Wail, not even enemy casters.

Stuff runs right through dancing ball. Acid and Solid fog are either bugged or have had their slow effects dramatically nerfed--had some trolls run through an acid fog in about 2 seconds (they took just 1 tic of damage).

So, every spell a caster wants to have land requires 50 SP tacked onto it. And even, the spell won't necessarily go through. And most of the dangerous stuff out there is immune to the best damage spells (firewall, Meteor Swarm, DBF), and have too many HP to DPS down efficiently.

I have no idea how any casual casters are going to survive out here!

The only spell I've found to be really worth casting is Prismatic Spray, just because I seem almost guaranteed to get some beneficial effect at each casting if I hit 3+ creatures (fear, flesh to stone, disappear, huge damage, stun), and even then I sometimes see 5 of those little blue "I MADE IT!" symbols pop up as all the monsters make their saves against I don't know what.

I tried denying it. I tried playing through it. But having reached level 20, and picked up 4 more Int, I can safely say that casters got hit something fierce with the nerf bat.

I don't think there is one ounce of truth to this reply. You don't even seem to know that your intel can reach 44 and 46 with the use of easily obtained and long lasting stat potions from an in game vendor. Please speak for yourself when commenting what casters can and cannot do. Just because you don't understand what you're doing and your caster performs poorly does not mean that all caster stink in the new content. You have obviously gimped yourself in some way, since a 42 is plenty high to land spells regularly without energy drain. You just need to use your head.

The fact that you have yet to stumble on the best spell for a caster in the battlefield really highlights your poor understanding of what it takes to perform out there.

ddoer
09-21-2009, 05:55 AM
trap the soul goes off more than 50% of the time on normal. casters have to get out of the habit of fort save spells and feelign liek god and go back to dpsing. you can dps and cc(will save stuff) effectively. on hard and elite, its suppsoed to be challenging.

if "dpsing" mean polay ray, it is a waste of mana. It probably take you more than 5 shoots to kill a Orthon/Barbazu (unless you always get crit)

cc + melee dps is fine.



I don't think there is one ounce of truth to this reply. You don't even seem to know that your intel can reach 44 and 46 with the use of easily obtained and long lasting stat potions from an in game vendor. Please speak for yourself when commenting what casters can and cannot do. Just because you don't understand what you're doing and your caster performs poorly does not mean that all caster stink in the new content. You have obviously gimped yourself in some way, since a 42 is plenty high to land spells regularly without energy drain. You just need to use your head.

The fact that you have yet to stumble on the best spell for a caster in the battlefield really highlights your poor understanding of what it takes to perform out there.

Look at tinyelvis' build at Solo Sorcerer and Diplomacy (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2427622). You may learn why your spell do not land.

I didn't read most posts in this thread. imho, caster could do instant kill just as before. In the past, we can FoD in one shoot but has less mana. Now, we have more mana, but have to do an Energy Drain before FoD/Banshee. ED a few mobs and then Banshee them is cool.

for sure you can't instant kill most of the mobs that come in a batch of 5-10, that's why you have CC spells.

I think caster is reborn in mod 9.

smatt
09-21-2009, 08:13 AM
I think caster is reborn in mod 9.


*Gasp.... No they're dead... worthelss :D

Samadhi
09-21-2009, 09:54 AM
I think caster is reborn in mod 9.

The caster, or the sorc? The sorc, with double specialization and otherwise pimped to the nines, only using 2 or 3 spells along the lines of their specialization, can still be highly effective. The important thing to remember here - is that versatility is what doesn't work anymore - unless you consider spamming enervation variety.

Now, whether this is fun to play for you or not is much more highly subjective. Now that I got it down, I have pretty much only been playing my sorc at high level. On the other hand, I could see how many caster's might not like only throwing three spells out of their spellbook - and this a huge disadvantage to wizards particularly.

The mob saves are too high, enough so that I will not PUG out a caster spot, since only specified builds are going to be effective at other than a manasponge. The high mob saves is particularly detrimental to wizards, that can no longer rely on versatility to keep them inline with sorcs. :(

sephiroth1084
09-21-2009, 09:56 AM
I don't think there is one ounce of truth to this reply. You don't even seem to know that your intel can reach 44 and 46 with the use of easily obtained and long lasting stat potions from an in game vendor. Please speak for yourself when commenting what casters can and cannot do. Just because you don't understand what you're doing and your caster performs poorly does not mean that all caster stink in the new content. You have obviously gimped yourself in some way, since a 42 is plenty high to land spells regularly without energy drain. You just need to use your head.

The fact that you have yet to stumble on the best spell for a caster in the battlefield really highlights your poor understanding of what it takes to perform out there.

I mentioned the stat potions in my post, which you clearly didn't read.

What spell are you alluding to then? What are you landing frequently? Check your attitude. I'm not alone in lamenting the emasculating of casters in Mod 9.

I've tried a fairly wide variety of my spells so far. Decided to try Trap the Soul next time I'm on.

If you're referring to Sleet Storm, I tried it, but am not too thrilled: if someone in the party dies, they end up slipping around blind when they get raised. And devils teleport around a lot. But maybe I just haven't tried it enough to really enjoy it.

Hendrik
09-21-2009, 10:07 AM
Casters did get nerfed. And HARD! Dance? Stone? Charm?

*snip*

I tried denying it. I tried playing through it. But having reached level 20, and picked up 4 more Int, I can safely say that casters got hit something fierce with the nerf bat.

But you do understand we are on that Plane? And by 'nerfed' you mean not as effective as we were while on own own home Plane, yes.

So, un-nerf yourself and don't do any Planar travel. Stick to Stormreach and surrounding area's where you are not 'nerfed' by planar effects. Or you can wait for the big un-nerf of Dreaming Dark where hopefully we will not be Outsiders and have natural environmental effects to worry about.

:rolleyes:

Thriand
09-21-2009, 10:13 AM
I don't think there is one ounce of truth to this reply. You don't even seem to know that your intel can reach 44 and 46 with the use of easily obtained and long lasting stat potions from an in game vendor. Please speak for yourself when commenting what casters can and cannot do. Just because you don't understand what you're doing and your caster performs poorly does not mean that all caster stink in the new content. You have obviously gimped yourself in some way, since a 42 is plenty high to land spells regularly without energy drain. You just need to use your head.

The fact that you have yet to stumble on the best spell for a caster in the battlefield really highlights your poor understanding of what it takes to perform out there.

If the end game vendor you are referring to is the paranoid alchemist you get to use for yugaloth favor then you should know that the +2 int pot comes with the heavy risk of -50% fortification, with as hard as the mobs in the new content hit I don't think it would be worth giving them the chance to 1 shot you.

However if you where referring to the DDO store as the "in game vendor" then so far I can tell no penalty with those pots, but running around with those on would surely get expensive.

Samadhi
09-21-2009, 10:31 AM
I mentioned the stat potions in my post, which you clearly didn't read.

What spell are you alluding to then? What are you landing frequently? Check your attitude.

Good questions Seph - there are some folks it is just better not to argue with, though. It is a condition sometimes caused by an inability to distinguish between level of abstraction. You want a concrete example; and instead are given "Just because you don't understand what you're doing and your caster performs poorly does not mean that all caster stink in the new content. You have obviously gimped yourself in some way, since a 42 is plenty high to land spells regularly without energy drain. You just need to use your head."

This phrase is obviously meaningless to most readers, since it still does not give any concrete examples. It is likely that the writer of statements like this cannot grasp what is going wrong - this individual lives in a world where concrete examples and higher levels of abstraction are equal and the same. (This is most often represented to intro psych students through the racism example:>one person of said group acted like ____ and it just goes to show you how all persons of said group are; there is no differentiation between the individual and higher groups they belong with). To the person thus afflicted, he really believes he is answering your question. Please note, this is not meant to be a diagnosis of any specific peoples, but merely an example of why some of our threads turn much longer than they really need to be :D It is just as possible that people are deliberately avoiding a rationale discussion.

More point on to your question:
On page 7 I listed a couple specifics about what I found to be using, without having to resort to the enervate everything 9 times mentality. This was done for both a conjuration and enchantment spec'd sorc. Straight up nuking isn't working horribly bad either, assuming the rest of the group is contributing enough to get to shrines quickly. If not, not. There was another poster that stated he could even get some usefulness out of Wail provided enough mobs to warrant casting it and all the foci in the world; this I have not tried personally though. If you don't' have a maxed out DC - you may want to stick with Otto's or the like - since without pretty maxed out DC's you might as well be using a vorpal (c'mon 5% auto win!!)

Samadhi
09-21-2009, 10:34 AM
If the end game vendor you are referring to is the paranoid alchemist you get to use for yugaloth favor then you should know that the +2 int pot comes with the heavy risk of -50% fortification, with as hard as the mobs in the new content hit I don't think it would be worth giving them the chance to 1 shot you.

However if you where referring to the DDO store as the "in game vendor" then so far I can tell no penalty with those pots, but running around with those on would surely get expensive.

Good catch. I will be deleting all if it ever comes down to needing to spend real money to make my toon competitive through the store.

ron_wanderer1
09-21-2009, 10:36 AM
Bah....just keep us hasted and zip it

ron_wanderer1
09-21-2009, 10:40 AM
on a serious note i do agree casters are becoming a dying breed at endgame

sephiroth1084
09-21-2009, 11:41 AM
But you do understand we are on that Plane? And by 'nerfed' you mean not as effective as we were while on own own home Plane, yes.

So, un-nerf yourself and don't do any Planar travel. Stick to Stormreach and surrounding area's where you are not 'nerfed' by planar effects. Or you can wait for the big un-nerf of Dreaming Dark where hopefully we will not be Outsiders and have natural environmental effects to worry about.

:rolleyes:

Dreaming Dark is going to be on another plane isn't it?

Whether the saves are inflated because of an environmental effect, or because of programming, the result is just as frustrating. Immunities are not a part of that effect, or shouldn't be, yet they are there nonetheless. Where does that figure into your argument?

A fight here or there that is difficult, or unfriendly to a particular class that's alright by me, but nearly all of the new content is like this (oddly, the saves in the two small quest seem much lower, as I'm landing Mass Hold with much higher frequency).

tinyelvis
09-21-2009, 11:42 PM
The caster, or the sorc? The sorc, with double specialization and otherwise pimped to the nines, only using 2 or 3 spells along the lines of their specialization, can still be highly effective. The important thing to remember here - is that versatility is what doesn't work anymore - unless you consider spamming enervation variety.

Now, whether this is fun to play for you or not is much more highly subjective. Now that I got it down, I have pretty much only been playing my sorc at high level. On the other hand, I could see how many caster's might not like only throwing three spells out of their spellbook - and this a huge disadvantage to wizards particularly.

The mob saves are too high, enough so that I will not PUG out a caster spot, since only specified builds are going to be effective at other than a manasponge. The high mob saves is particularly detrimental to wizards, that can no longer rely on versatility to keep them inline with sorcs. :(

You definitely are a riot. You start the thread whining like your doll carriage was stolen claiming in the title of this very thread "Casters are Dead". Then go on to snivel that


at the moment, casters seem to be absolutely useless in the majority of the new content.
Over time with advice and prodding from knowledgable folks like myself which include,


its all about learning what to attack when and with which spell.

You are not going to land spells unless you bump up your DC's

If you really want to be an aggressive sorc, then you need to cut the fat out of your build. Eliminate things that don't directly improve your combat spell casting ability
you gain some experience and come to realize maybe your hysteria was a little misplaced. Maybe the sky is not gonna fall and crush your little caster doll house. Your highness then makes a grand pronouncement for the masses.


Casters are not dead, despite my initial supposition. Just wizards areNow, after roughly 7000 folks have viewed and 170 commented over 9 pages of this thread you come out again as the expert and make the further grand pronouncements,


The important thing to remember here - is that versatility is what doesn't work anymore - unless you consider spamming enervation variety.Samantha, I have news for you, your initial premise was wrong, your comment all thru the thread leading up to your slight change of heart are wrong. Your false statements above are....wait for it.......wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, ... if you have been wrong so much in the past and people are still telling you that you are wrong, should you really be listening to that voice in your head that seems to impel you to add more comments to this thread? You're certainly have every right to, but look at what you are producing here. Do you think any knowledgeable person is actually taking what you say seriously. You run the risk of making a complete and utter fool of yourself.

You really have no business making these negative comments. Get some experience under your belt. I can see your frustrated. Learn how to play your toon better. Then come back with constructive accurate comments. But the important things is, don't panic. Take some time to actually read the advise that is given. We will guide you. It will be ok. Casters will be ok. In fact, they are far better off than ever before. And there is much more room for variation and versatility than before. This is just the beginning. You will see, the picture is very rosy for casters since Mod 9 came out. Now damn it, pretty please with sugar fix the capstone.

Kalundan
09-22-2009, 07:49 AM
Just for reference my caster as solo'd all of the new quests in reasonable time, with little to no resources used excluding Genesis point, which I don't think a hireling can manage pulling the switches.(I have not yet attempted it)

Sins takes the longest due to having to kill so much trash. A New Invasion might be the easiest to solo, with Bastion a close second. This doesn't even take into account Weapon Shipment (which anyone can solo). Granted I carry Stealth on my Sorcerer so it's so very easy to stealth through everything and only kill when necessary. I'm sure the brute force method works, but if your using that tactic you should perhaps log in your melee toons.

Samadhi
09-22-2009, 10:03 AM
You are becoming almost as fun as Leslie; thanks; I'm pretty sick and can use the cheering up :D



Over time with advice and prodding from knowledgable folks like myself which include
I actually kind of agree with this statement. I took and used advice from Sohryu that was useful. I don't agree that you should be included, because you never gave advice, you just berated myself and others for not knowing the game well enough without ever giving a concrete example of how to improve.... I do like to hear differing opinions, though, that's why this thread was started to be challenging. I was hoping to be proved wrong; because I have loved my casters since day 1 and didn't want to shelf them. I covered all this on page 7 I believe ;)



<several paragraphs of insults deleted>
In fact, they are far better off than ever before. And there is much more room for variation and versatility than before.
I don't think they are far better off than before, but as "better" and "far" are grey words in terms of definition and would pretty much require their own thread, I'm happy to leave this as a matter of opinion and move on.
Variation and versatility - as far as how I build my toon, this would be correct. Whether to go conjuration, enchantment, necro focused etc. etc. are not more meaningful decisions than they used to be.
Where variation and versatility really fail, though, is in regards to in the field playing a single toon. Yes, my conjuration spec'd toon, spamming web and trapping souls as needed, is very effective. However, since those foci make such a difference, these are really the only way she can CC. Non-focused spells are better off just being avoided. This is what I meant by a loss of versatility.



Now damn it, pretty please with sugar fix the capstone.
Hard not to agree with that ;) Peace dude.

tinyelvis
09-22-2009, 12:49 PM
Just for reference my caster as solo'd all of the new quests in reasonable time, with little to no resources used excluding Genesis point, which I don't think a hireling can manage pulling the switches.(I have not yet attempted it)

Sins takes the longest due to having to kill so much trash. A New Invasion might be the easiest to solo, with Bastion a close second. This doesn't even take into account Weapon Shipment (which anyone can solo). Granted I carry Stealth on my Sorcerer so it's so very easy to stealth through everything and only kill when necessary. I'm sure the brute force method works, but if your using that tactic you should perhaps log in your melee toons.

I did not want to mention this since it seems when the designers find out that people are using ingenious methods to quickly run quests, they usually act to shut it down. But since the cat is out of the bag and without mentioning too many details,....

I have not used stealth in a long time end game. However, recently I did group with a caster who stealths a lot. We quickly stealthed thru all levels of New invasion with no alert in record time. The two of us then proceeded to pound the living **** out of the end boss. I love Mod 9. The room for and level of versatility is stellar.

Samadhi, I can be a harsh sarcastic critic. That is a character flaw. But honestly, its all in fun. If you read between the arrogant jibes, there is often useful info. All of the tips I quoted in the previous reply were my quotes from this thread.

Kalundan
09-22-2009, 01:53 PM
I did not want to mention this since it seems when the designers find out that people are using ingenious methods to quickly run quests, they usually act to shut it down. But since the cat is out of the bag and without mentioning too many details,....

I have not used stealth in a long time end game. However, recently I did group with a caster who stealths a lot. We quickly stealthed thru all levels of New invasion with no alert in record time. The two of us then proceeded to pound the living **** out of the end boss. I love Mod 9. The room for and level of versatility is stellar.


I suppose that gets my goat more than anything else, how Turbine seems intent on marginalizing the usefulness of so many skills/tactics. The current state of the game reinforces the narrowing or funneling they seem intend on creating(e.g. BAB changes, DA, Scaling bugs). I wouldn't dare rate it up there with the NGE/CE (not gonna delve into these here), but it remains on the fringe of these hasty changes that stifle diversity and creativity.

I can only hope they have the foresight to not prevent their players from legitimately completing quests and objectives by using normal game mechanics. I'm glad to see the barriers in Monastery for instance are only up when you agro mobs; however foolish that seems. I'm sure all of the new quests are soon in store for new doors/barriers or prevention methods that fix "lag" ;).

ddoer
09-23-2009, 03:50 AM
If the end game vendor you are referring to is the paranoid alchemist you get to use for yugaloth favor then you should know that the +2 int pot comes with the heavy risk of -50% fortification, ...

is there any reference or how do i know about the -50% fortification? I drink a pot and my fortification remains in 100%. if there is a "chance" of losing fortification, how heavy is the risk?

Visty
09-23-2009, 06:50 AM
is there any reference or how do i know about the -50% fortification? I drink a pot and my fortification remains in 100%. if there is a "chance" of losing fortification, how heavy is the risk?

it depends on which pot you drink

the cha+2 i think is the one with -50% fort

theres a thread about it in the user guide section which i wont search for you now :P

Kalundan
09-23-2009, 07:47 AM
it depends on which pot you drink

the cha+2 i think is the one with -50% fort

theres a thread about it in the user guide section which i wont search for you now :P

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198744

CHA +2 was a drop in fort save.

___________________________

Essence of Betrayal:

+2 stacking dexterity
-2 to hit

Essence of Cunning:

+2 stacking intelligence
-50% fortification

Essence of Desire:

+2 stacking constitution
+20 stacking hp (total +40 with con bracket)
No negative yet discovered

Essence of Despair:

+2 stacking wisdom
+4 natural armor
-4 reflex save

Essence of Fury:

+2 stacking strength
-4 will save

Essence of Seduction:

+2 stacking charisma
-4 fortitude save

ddoer
09-23-2009, 04:50 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198744

CHA +2 was a drop in fort save.

___________________________

Essence of Betrayal:

+2 stacking dexterity
-2 to hit

Essence of Cunning:

+2 stacking intelligence
-50% fortification

Essence of Desire:

+2 stacking constitution
+20 stacking hp (total +40 with con bracket)
No negative yet discovered

Essence of Despair:

+2 stacking wisdom
+4 natural armor
-4 reflex save

Essence of Fury:

+2 stacking strength
-4 will save

Essence of Seduction:

+2 stacking charisma
-4 fortitude save

nice. my sorc has no fortitude save anyway. Thx Devs for making the side effect in this way. :D

Wiz does suffer. 50% fort save is a big deal. but not critically harmful. You are suppose to be able to avoid attack by other means.

Many of the side effects are neglectable

Raegoul
09-23-2009, 05:04 PM
You're not surprised, right? It looks like a fairly predictable progression:
Shroud: Keep up the haste and fogs, plus maybe some heightened web. Oh and kill those gnolls.
VOD: Keep up the haste and fogs, plus maybe some heightened web. Oh and kill those bats.

The times when a mage could contribute DPS against devils in Shroud or later were uncommon, and depended upon a ring of melees already clobbering the boss. As a melee in these quests, I can contribute simply by moving in a clump with the other melees and swinging around at whatever gets close... but if there's a mage with us, too often it doesn't make sense for him to even bother trying. With effort and luck he can steal some kills, but that's not a true contribution to the party.

The devs will have to try and find a way to fix the problems you experienced, and I tell you, I don't envy them the job. Part of the solution could come automatically when you move on to mobs who don't have so many fire-immune teleporters. Part of their attempt will be adding non-spellpoint spells (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2008028) to casters, so they can join in DPSing trash without burning points needed for a boss. But it'll take a lot more than that, and some of the changes would definitely have to upset one category of players or another. It'll be tough!

(A few other things that could help would be Dimensional Anchor as a self-buff aura, and something like Energy Substitution or Searing Spell. Aggro scaling by distance threshold could help as well, as could a Intim and Diplo skills that integrate with Hate points. But those topics get very complex very fast. And hey, Mass Enervate!)

I feel dirty... /agree

I would also like to add that Casters should be able to do stuff on a bigger scale. So i would like to things like walls of force and stone to affect the environment and control the battle field. I would like the fun of the Caster doing something that respects the true power in PnP not just adding DPS. Though Searing spell would be nice it just makes firewall and DelayFB the only spells to be used. There needs to be more real options out there that bend the world to a mage's will.