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Xionanx
07-28-2009, 01:49 AM
I have recently finished leveling a WF Monk to 16, and before I invest more time/tomes etc in it I want some advice on how to improve it, even if it means a reroll and leveling a new one.

My starting stats were:
14 STR
16 DEX
16 CON
8 INT
14 WIS
6 CHA

I put all 4 stat points from leveling in DEX so my endgame stats are:
14 STR (+6 Item to 20)
20 DEX (+6 Item to 26)
16 CON (+2 WF and +6 Item to 24)
8 INT
14 WIS (+6 Item and +3 Monk to 23)
6 CHA

I could toss a few tomes on there, but like I said I dont want to invest more in it yet until I'm happy I couldn't have done better.

Feats are standard fair:
Dodge
Weapon Finesse
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Toughness x2 (x3 with minos)
Improved Crit
Weapon Focus

Unbuffed AC:
10 Base
8 Dex
6 Wis
9 Armor (2 WF Plating, 7 From Dragontouched Docent)
5 Deflection
1 Feat
4 Centered (monk)
---------------------------------
43 Total Unbuffed (I know I'm missing a bunch of gear to get this higher, but gear is aquired with time)

Unbuffed HP's is 338.

Now the problem I currently have with this build is:

I feel like I could have adjusted my starting stats better
I feel like my AC even after I get some better AC gear still wont be amazing
I also feel like my DPS is not on par with other melee DPS, though I'm told all monks have this problem.


So any help/critisism would be appreciated. Keep in mind however I want this to be a Warforged Monk so telling me to take a different race wont be helpfull.

Samadhi
07-28-2009, 01:52 AM
Personally, I like Str builds for monks better than Dex. Not ignoring Dex, but with a 30 Str monk you can still break 50 AC unbuffed without too much trouble. And do some actual DPS at the same time.

Xionanx
07-28-2009, 02:10 AM
Personally, I like Str builds for monks better than Dex. Not ignoring Dex, but with a 30 Str monk you can still break 50 AC unbuffed without too much trouble. And do some actual DPS at the same time.

So you would suggest perhaps putting more in STR to start and then using my leveling bunus's on STR?

The 4 points from leveling are going to get me either +2 AC or +2 Damage. According to the weapon comparison tool, going for the +2 Damage from strenght would net me roughly an additional 3 damage per second.

So if I had started with a 15 STR instead of a 14, used a +1 Tome and 4 leveling bonus's I would have a STR of 26 with a +6 item. That would be 3 more damage per swing for roughly a 4.5 DPS increase.

Samadhi
07-28-2009, 02:12 AM
Plus you will save a feat not needing weapon finesse :D

Denssor
07-28-2009, 02:32 AM
A couple of suggestions...

I don't know how much higher you could actually get your AC. I would recomend dropping your DEX down to 14 and raising your STR to 16. Unless your AC is getting into the 50's I don't see much of a point in worring about your AC. So lose one more AC, to gain a little more damage.

I would switch out weapon focus for either skill focus (concentrarion) or stunning fist. I find that the extra Ki is more useful than +1 to-hit, and stunning enemies for auto-crits outwieghs the +1 to-hit as well.

Other than that it looks pretty good.

Xionanx
07-28-2009, 02:50 AM
OK, so if I adjust the starting stats to this:

15 STR (+6 Item +4 Levels = 25)
15 DEX (+2 Tome = 17 for TWF feats +6 Item = 23)
17 CON (+6 Item +2 Warforged = 25)
8 INT (ehhh)
13 WIS (+3 Monk +6 Item = 22)
6 CHA (ehhh)

This change would leave my HP's the same, free up 1 feat since I no longer need weapon finesse, and get me more DPS; I would loose 2 AC and 1 To Hit bonus.

(edit: starting with an "odd number" stat "maximizes" my point usage for when I get lucky enough to land a +3 TOME. Or, later down the road when/if they get put in, a +5 TOME)

Mobeius
07-28-2009, 10:06 AM
Weapons Finnesse and Weapon Focus I would drop for other feats.

I would recomend Power Attack and Stunning Fist. Your Str gives you hit and str damage bonuses in of itself. Improved Critical for a monk I am not a fan off, especially if you use fists. You may get 5% more chance to crit but remember your primary hits are the ones that do damage. You can boost crit damage with a bloodstone to compensate crit damage. In addition, if you can stun the mobs, you auto-crit.

Secondary feat change would be swap out either one toughness or improved crit with Path of Light so you can get healing curse, and then lastly utilize the feat Combat Expertise, assuming you can get a 13 Int.

Another thing to remember is this, at level 18, you can achive Grandmaster in your stances. However to do so, you need a sitting primary stat of 18 to take it. In other words if you want GM Windstance, you need an 18 DEX.

I would raise you int to ATLEAST a 11 so a +2 Int tome can allow you to take Combat Expertise, personally I would try to obtain a +2 Int tome ASAP before you build the monk and raise you INT to a 12, pop the tome. That way at 14 you get an additional skill point per level. Just think what you could do with 19 extra skill points.

PS: I wouldnt count on +3 tomes until MUCH MUCH later. playing over 2 1/2 years and I got one +3 tome to my name. Got it from Stormreaver and +3 con tome, would have prefered STR or DEX LOL.

Finally, I feel you biggest mistake is you Wisdom only being 14, I would recommend raising that to a 16. Dont forget Wisdom affects the DC's for your special attacks saves, increases your will save AND more importantly raises your AC.

Monks have 2 issues.

1st- They are M.A.D. The only "dump" stat they have is Charisma, but since I like UMD and Diplomacy, my Charisma is 14, but having so many stats dependent on thins them out. They can just go 18 Str and max out str and have like a 35 str like fighters without sacrificing other key components of their monk. However, Wisdom is the main and primary stat for monks. UNLESS, you are building without special attacks, etc.

2nd- Monks are Gear dependent. Arguements abound over this, being which what ever a monk can get others can get. DPS wise, Tharnes Goggles and a Bloodstone go a long ways to make up for DPS. I am also a huge believer of right tools for the job, I have a variety of Greater Bane Handwraps, but my main attack is typically +3 Acid of Weighted 5%. I have 20 different HW, which is better than have 40 different Kama's LOL.

This is my Opinion, Hope it helps and/or sheds light on something.

Xionanx
07-28-2009, 03:24 PM
Weapons Finnesse and Weapon Focus I would drop for other feats.

I would recomend Power Attack and Stunning Fist. Your Str gives you hit and str damage bonuses in of itself. Improved Critical for a monk I am not a fan off, especially if you use fists. You may get 5% more chance to crit but remember your primary hits are the ones that do damage. You can boost crit damage with a bloodstone to compensate crit damage. In addition, if you can stun the mobs, you auto-crit.

I can agree with this, I've been using Maladroit handwraps though as I find they get mobs to "auto-crit" faster and more reliably then stunning fist. With the coming changes in mod9 maybe my weakening of enfeebling handwraps will actually work and I see if they get mobs to auto-crit even faster.

Secondary feat change would be swap out either one toughness or improved crit with Path of Light so you can get healing curse, and then lastly utilize the feat Combat Expertise, assuming you can get a 13 Int.

Path of light/Dark is a required feat choice while leveling so I didn't mention it on my feat list, yes I already have path of light. To achieve an INT of 13 would tax an already stretched stat spread so I cant see a valid reason to pursue it just to pick up combat expertise

Another thing to remember is this, at level 18, you can achive Grandmaster in your stances. However to do so, you need a sitting primary stat of 18 to take it. In other words if you want GM Windstance, you need an 18 DEX.

Starting with a 15 DEX and using a +3 Tome fixes this particular issue

I would raise you int to ATLEAST a 11 so a +2 Int tome can allow you to take Combat Expertise, personally I would try to obtain a +2 Int tome ASAP before you build the monk and raise you INT to a 12, pop the tome. That way at 14 you get an additional skill point per level. Just think what you could do with 19 extra skill points.

See my response about about INT. However I can see your point about skill points as the monk gets very few. However the "usefull" skills on a Monk as far as I can see are Concentration, Balance, Jump, and Tumble. (I wouldn't mind getting my UMD up, but with a starting CHA of 6 and few skill points UMD seems like a hopeless cause)

PS: I wouldnt count on +3 tomes until MUCH MUCH later. playing over 2 1/2 years and I got one +3 tome to my name. Got it from Stormreaver and +3 con tome, would have prefered STR or DEX LOL.

(With Mod9 and higher level content I expect we'll be seeing +3 tomes as often as we see +2's now)

Finally, I feel you biggest mistake is you Wisdom only being 14, I would recommend raising that to a 16. Dont forget Wisdom affects the DC's for your special attacks saves, increases your will save AND more importantly raises your AC.

I have to look at cost/benefit ratio on a WF monk. using the point buy system taking a Monk from 14 WIS to 16 WIS costs 6 Points and only grant 1 AC and +1 To save DC's of strikes. I need to justify lowering others stats to raise it, and to me that just doesn't justify the exchange. With your suggestions, taking INT to 11 and WIS to 16 I would only have 13 points left on a 32PT buy character to put into STR DEX and CON so you can see the issue with that I hope.

Monks have 2 issues.

1st- They are M.A.D. The only "dump" stat they have is Charisma, but since I like UMD and Diplomacy, my Charisma is 14, but having so many stats dependent on thins them out. They can just go 18 Str and max out str and have like a 35 str like fighters without sacrificing other key components of their monk. However, Wisdom is the main and primary stat for monks. UNLESS, you are building without special attacks, etc.

You have a WF monk with a CHA of 14? I'm guessing your monk is not WF

2nd- Monks are Gear dependent. Arguements abound over this, being which what ever a monk can get others can get. DPS wise, Tharnes Goggles and a Bloodstone go a long ways to make up for DPS. I am also a huge believer of right tools for the job, I have a variety of Greater Bane Handwraps, but my main attack is typically +3 Acid of Weighted 5%. I have 20 different HW, which is better than have 40 different Kama's LOL.

I'm one of those people who say that any gear a monk can get, so can a fighter, ranger, etc.. Gear makes all classess better so thats neither here nor there. I invested a great deal of effort into getting a large variety of handwraps and at one point in time I had 3 quickbars full of them which I have since trimmed down to 1 Quickbar through testing/analysing the effectiveness.

Weighted 5% I find pointless compared to stat damaging since effectively your "hoping for a crit, to get crits". You pointed out when you suggested not taking improved crit bludgeon, the "crit range" of unarmed being 20/x2 (5% chance) isn't amazing. So why would 5% chance to stun be good? Once again I have found maladroit handwraps to be the most effective and reliable method of getting a mob to auto crit. As an added bonus while your working it down to auto crit you are also lowering its AC by 1 point every 2 hits, making it even easier to hit and therefore reduce its AC more

This is my Opinion I Hope it helps and/or sheds light on something.

It may seem like I'm being overly critical of your advice, and maybe I am. You have to understand that I'm a number cruncher min/maxer who builds toons over and over again to get the "optimal" build possible. I like to have good solid reason for why my stats are what they are, and I also like to "know" that I'm giving the party a significant boost; not bringing it down.

I have so far leveled about 8 monks of various races/stat spreads from anywhere to level 6-16 as I learned what did and did not work well. I have come here for advice because monks aren't quite as straight forward as they would seem at first.

Demoyn
07-28-2009, 03:28 PM
The best way to improve a monk is to splash 14 levels of another class.

Xionanx
07-28-2009, 04:11 PM
The best way to improve a monk is to splash 14 levels of another class.

lol certainly seems so, however I remain dedicated to the cause of going "pure" class for the goal of becoming an outsider.

moonprophet
07-28-2009, 04:23 PM
..problem with your build. Monk builds (in my opinion) are best when they are well rounded, and not min/maxed. This goes against alot of thje power gamer rulebook, but perhaps that is why the power gamers bash the monk so much. Monk DPS is more about alot of attacks each doing a little bit. Although, an unarmed monk has the highest base damage of any weapon in the game at level 20. Not shabby. Good twitch skills and utilizing your ki bar are also important. This is why a balanced build is nice, because it gives you the most ki options. Add to that monk DR, 30SR at level 20, self healing, improved evasion, raise dead, cure disease, cure blindness, lesser restore, the healing curse, and the "super jump thingy" and i think a well balanced pure class monk is a great idea. I would not change a thing at this point. I think you are on the right track. I also have a feeling that we will see more monk love in the future from turbine.

moonprophet
07-28-2009, 04:29 PM
The best way to improve a monk is to splash 14 levels of another class.

...if you tried. There is nothing wrong with the monk class other than it requires a open minded player with good twitch skills that can get past the min/max character creation mindset. The best thing for this game in my opinion would be if they took away the monk ac bonus when you are not centered. yeah...boo hoo..I'm a killjoy. pffft :-)'. It's my opinion. If you are gonna multiclass....COMMIT TO IT! (The fighter level on ellecktra btw was a result of leveling your character between the hours of 1 and 5 am. if they have full character respec that does not negate my level 1 tome use, I will fix this).

Mobeius
07-28-2009, 05:04 PM
..problem with your build. Monk builds (in my opinion) are best when they are well rounded, and not min/maxed. This goes against alot of thje power gamer rulebook, but perhaps that is why the power gamers bash the monk so much. Monk DPS is more about alot of attacks each doing a little bit. Although, an unarmed monk has the highest base damage of any weapon in the game at level 20. Not shabby. Good twitch skills and utilizing your ki bar are also important. This is why a balanced build is nice, because it gives you the most ki options. Add to that monk DR, 30SR at level 20, self healing, improved evasion, raise dead, cure disease, cure blindness, lesser restore, the healing curse, and the "super jump thingy" and i think a well balanced pure class monk is a great idea. I would not change a thing at this point. I think you are on the right track. I also have a feeling that we will see more monk love in the future from turbine.

QTF and repped

Most people try to build monks as fire and forget weapons. I always said if you dont mind the twitch monks bring a lot to any raid or group.

Xionanx
07-28-2009, 11:55 PM
OK, thanks to the feedback and some number crucnhing I have decided to go with the following:

Starting stats:
15 STR
17 DEX
13 CON
8 INT
13 WIS
6 CHA

Put all 4 stat points from leveling intp DEX so endgame stats (level 16) are:

22 STR (+1 Tome +6 Item)
28 DEX (+1 Tome +6 Item +4 Levels)
22 CON (+1 Tome +6 Item +2 WF)
8 INT
23 WIS (+1 Tome +6 Item +3 Monk)
6 CHA

This gets me +1 on my STR, +1 on my AC, and will scale better with +3 and +2 tomes while not requiring them initially. Only loss is 16 HP's and 1 Fort Save.

Feats wont change:
Dodge
Weapon Finesse
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Toughness x2 (x3 with minos)
Improved Crit
Weapon Focus

(Might drop a toughness for Power Attack)

Unbuffed AC Will be:
10 Base
9 Dex
6 Wis
9 Armor (2 WF Plating, 7 From Dragontouched Docent)
5 Deflection (+5 Protection item)
1 Feat (Dodge Feat)
4 Centered (monk)
---------------------------------
44 Total Unbuffed with easily obtained gear:

+2 DEX from Wind Stance
+1 Dodge for Alchemical Ritual
+2 Dodge for Chaosgarde
+4 Shield Clicky
+3 Natural from Barkskin Pot
+1 Haste
---------------------------------
57 with standard buffs and moderate equipment

+2/+3 Tomes, Greensteel, chattering ring, etc this could go higher easily.

Unbuffed HP's will be 322.

The changes will overall give me an Additional:
+1 To Hit
+1 To Damage
+1 To Reflex Save
+1 To AC

At the Cost of:
-1 To Fort Save
-16 HP's

I am still looking for help/criticism and I still I want this to be a Warforged Monk so telling me to take a different race wont be helpfull. Also I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on usefull Monk gear.

BlackRage
07-29-2009, 01:11 AM
Starting stats:
15 STR
17 DEX
13 CON
8 INT
13 WIS
6 CHA

Only you can say if your stats are good for your build, but I would suggest the following:
STR - 14 +6 Item = 20 (5)
DEX - 16 +2 tome +4 lvls +6 Item = 28 (9)
CON - 16 +2 WF CON +6 Item = 24 (7)
INT - 08 (-1)
WIS - 14 +1 tome +3 Monk WIS +6 Item = 24 (7)
CHA - 06 (-2)

This is a slightly more efficient point buy. Use a +1 DEX tome initially if you need to in order to qualify for iTWF/gTWF.

Xionanx
07-29-2009, 03:37 PM
Only you can say if your stats are good for your build, but I would suggest the following:
STR - 14 +6 Item = 20 (5)
DEX - 16 +2 tome +4 lvls +6 Item = 28 (9)
CON - 16 +2 WF CON +6 Item = 24 (7)
INT - 08 (-1)
WIS - 14 +1 tome +3 Monk WIS +6 Item = 24 (7)
CHA - 06 (-2)

This is a slightly more efficient point buy. Use a +1 DEX tome initially if you need to in order to qualify for iTWF/gTWF.

Actually those are the exact stats I started with in my original post which you probably didnt read:rolleyes:, and it is NOT more efficient as I have shown in my previous post. But in case you missed it I'll beak it down for you like this:

My modified stats let me do more damage as per this graph:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=1&1bab=16&1atktype=1h&1spm=126&1phd=2D8&1phed=0&1phth=0&1phthreat=20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phfocus=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=2D8&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1ohfocus=on&1ohcrit=on&1str=22&1dex=28&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1finess=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=2&2bab=16&2atktype=1h&2spm=126&2phd=2D8&2phed=&2phth=&2phthreat=20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phfocus=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=2D8&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2ohfocus=on&2ohcrit=on&2str=20&2dex=28&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2finess=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&minac=10&maxac=50

I can get a higher AC then the stats you show, higher reflex save, etc... its all in my previous post.

BlackRage
07-29-2009, 05:41 PM
I can get a higher AC then the stats you show, higher reflex save, etc... its all in my previous post.

I read your thread thanks. I especially noticed where you asked for our help. Your initial stats are better.

No your AC is higher and Reflex is the same. Simply math maybe complicated, but it is not all that difficult. You do trade +1 damage for +16-20hp.:rolleyes:

But hey, as I clearly said: only YOU can decide if your stats serve your build's purpose, but your initial setup was better.

baddax
07-29-2009, 05:49 PM
14 levels of ranger would help significantly.