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View Full Version : Improved Loot Tables



Lithic
07-25-2009, 10:01 PM
I think most of us would agree that the old loot runs are dead and gone, not due to the nerfing of our favorite runs, but due to the lack of goodies hidden in the old loot tables. It's been a very long time since I said to myself "hey lets take an extra 3 minutes to get that chest, there might be something real nice in there".

Here's a repost of my suggestion (though it's possible someone else came up with it before).

In 6 words: Raid-quality items in random chests.

In lots more words:
Give any item generated in the loot table a % chance to have a secondary effect. I would recommend something along the lines of 1% or so. When an item rolled qualifies, then the game rolls another time on the same loot table as the original item, and the result is added.

For example, a +5 int goggle of +3 disable device (normal roll) might have blindness immunity of +11 spot added. To keep things simple, the name would display as normal, with an asterisk at the beginning: *Clever goggles of disabling
Substitute the asterisk for any symbol to alert the viewer that it isn't just a normal item. This could lead to the unimpressive above, or to items such as +6 str/Proof vs poison of greater false life belts. In the case of a GFL/GFL belt, the item is as redundant as an underwater action ring of water breathing, as the effects would follow the usual stacking rules.

For weapons, it gets a little more complicated due to the plusses. In those cases, I would have the second roll assume the plus of the first roll. For example, a +3holy longsword with a secondary effect would reroll another min lvl 10-equivalent effect, but assume 3 pluses were spoken for, ending up with acid of pure good as an example (or seeker +2 of deception maybe).


Now sure, powerfull items are possible (like the above minlvl 13 +6str/Proof vs poison/GFL belt, but these would be quite rare.

In addition, a third/fourth/fifth bunch could be added if the player rolled really really well (1% of 1% of 1% of 1% would have a 5th effect group, or about 1 in 100million pulls assuming the 1% chance I suggested).


Would this devalue raid loot? Not likely as the effects are random. People would still grind for the raid loot, though a few higher quality items would pop up.


Put this into update 1, and I think the old excitement at every chest would come back.

Jendrak
07-25-2009, 10:07 PM
/agree and /disagree

There definatly should be something done to the loottables to increase the variety I will definatly agree to this. However, putting "raid"loot in them in definatly NOT the way to go.

If you want raid quality loot then you should be doing raids...it's that simple.

Now, as far as adding something new to the tables they should definatly pick up one or two of the many different books out there and do some research. (DMG,PhB, The complete adventurere/warrior/etc...

These all have tons of item/weapon effects that could be added to increase the types of loot. Now i understand that not all of them will translate well but this is a far better alternative to just stacking old **** on top of old ****.

monkeypoopie7
07-25-2009, 10:07 PM
I like the idea, but imagine if someone DID get something that had 4 extra groups of effects. It would almost certainly be overpowered, even if the effects it had sucked haha... 3 groups of effects max.

Hafeal
07-25-2009, 10:34 PM
While I understand the thrust of your idea, it is not a good one as formed.

Raid loot is for raids. It is already over-powered and makes the game very easy for certain players. Adding even a 1% or .001% roll percentage would flood the game with raid quality loot given the number of chest pulls occurring in the game. "Standard" chest loot is weak in comparison and will never compare as currently set-up.

The customization of raid loot in the last 2 mods and in the upcoming mod make it not feasible. Not to mention the binding nature and the cries of many players over the unfairness of it.

The chest loot now makes the game very completeable. You don't "need" better loot complete any quest in the game. I would, in fact, argue the abundance of loot has pretty much ruined both player expectations and the economy. :(

Impaqt
07-25-2009, 10:45 PM
I'd much rather have more crafting. Put Ingrediants in all the chests and people will want to loot them. Our system is Monty hall enough. We dont need even more uber stuff dropping out of chests.

rezo
07-25-2009, 10:48 PM
I would like to see loot for quest that are for that lvl of quest. For ex. a lvl 6 quest having +4 longsword in a chest an a +1 longsword or better yet "MW" something.

Lithic
07-25-2009, 10:59 PM
I'd much rather have more crafting. Put Ingrediants in all the chests and people will want to loot them. Our system is Monty hall enough. We dont need even more uber stuff dropping out of chests.

Im not seeing how my idea would lead to much more uber items. At best, any dual effect is a slot saver.

As for the weapons, at best they would approach a shroud item.

The rarity of these pulls, combined with how many garbage enhancements are out there would keep the truly uber pulls in check.

Impaqt
07-25-2009, 11:07 PM
Im not seeing how my idea would lead to much more uber items. At best, any dual effect is a slot saver.

As for the weapons, at best they would approach a shroud item.

The rarity of these pulls, combined with how many garbage enhancements are out there would keep the truly uber pulls in check.



Raid stuff should be for Raids. THe stuff we can make in teh shroud is so out of control its almost embarrassing to carry them.

Borror0
07-26-2009, 12:20 AM
The stuff we can make in the shroud is so out of control its almost embarrassing to carry them.
I think that is the best Shroud loot description I have ever read.

Borror0
07-26-2009, 01:06 AM
In 6 words: Raid-quality items in random chests.
Well, that's already happening. We can pull some really nice items from chests. The problem is that you loot trash so often because the chance to put something decent is close to none that no one considers chest loot to be worth looting unless someone needs some vendor fodder.

I think you mean "Increasing the overall quality of loot to also increase the chances of looting an item capable of combating against raid loot for an equipment slot."

If so, I agree with you.

I think, though, that it is important to explain the difference between "an item capable of combating against raid loot for an equipment slot" and "raid loot quality items". The latter is much more powerful than the former. The fact is, an item does not need to be as powerful as raid loot to be worth equipping. It just needs to meet the needs of the character. While Knost's Belt (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Lamannia/KnostsBelt.jpg) is very powerful, if I already am wearing Kilau's Necklace (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Lamannia/KilausNecklace.jpg), it is very little more than a Greater False Life belt. If I find a randomly generated belt with Greater False Life and another useful bonus on it, then the randomly generated belt is better for me even though Knost's Belt is more powerful from an objective standpoint.

While that's an example using named, the example follows through with raid loot.

Making that a reality would require far more than what you suggest in your OP, however.

The problem, at the moment, is two fold:

First of all, there are too few item enchantments in DDO which means that it's relatively easy for a character to own all that he needs. Turbine is slowly addressing that by creating new item enchantments but those will need to be brought over to random loot for that to have a significant impact.
Secondly, there are far too many item enchantments that are rendered useless by other aspect of the game's design. A few examples of this are: all Armor Class bonuses (by falling off the d20), Proof against Poison (Naturalize Poison), Light and Medium Fortification (Heavy Fortification), to-hit bonuses (by always hitting on a 2), elemental resistances (Resist Energy), non-silver weapons (against DR/Silver), Fear Immunity (Greater Heroism), bonus to most skills (by skills bing so useless) and critical hit confirmation (by always confirming on a 1) but the list goes on and on.

Once significant actions have been taken on both sides, tweaks in the loot tables algorithms themselves would help in making loot more appealing.

Raid loot is for raids. [...] Adding even a 1% or .001% roll percentage would flood the game with raid quality loot given the number of chest pulls occurring in the game.
Duh. I think that's fairly obvious!

Though, if you meant "raid loot quality items", we have a problem. It will be possible to loot a +5 Holy Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane in Module 9. That's incredibly better than anything we could loot in a raid!! Should Turbine consider preventing this to happen because some randomly generated loot can be better than raid loot?

It is already over-powered and makes the game very easy for certain players.
You are criticizing Turbine's approach to better loot here; not his proposal.

Raid loot could be used as the only way to be able to complete Elite mode (ie otherwise your character is too weak) but Turbine has neither build their raid loot for that nor put incentive to complete said Elite mode.

The customization of raid loot in the last 2 mods and in the upcoming mod make it not feasible.
How so?

There is plenty of design space to explore. +6 Dex of Improved False Life Necklace. See? I already made a good item!

Lithic
07-26-2009, 03:14 AM
I think you mean "Increasing the overall quality of loot to also increase the chances of looting an item capable of combating against raid loot for an equipment slot."



Well that's close enough.

Looks like people are getting hung up on the words "raid quality loot" which to me just means an item which can break the rules of random loot generation, in this case by giving the item a very small chance of aquiring additional powers which may or may not be usefull. I think some of the oposition thought I was talking about chattering rings in every chest heh.