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Kromize
07-01-2009, 06:33 PM
Please?

And take out the cross-class skill thing. If I wan to put a point into a skill, I better get a full point in that skill. Why should only a few classes get to use magical devices? If I were a fighter, and wanted to learn how to use magical devices, I would go to somebody who knows what theyre doing and learn from them, just like a rogue would...

Make sneaking more useful...First, turn it into a single skill(sneak, not hide + move silently, just sneak), then, make it so that mobs lose target of you when you go out of their line of sight... Also, add lots of extra damage for attacks while your sneaking. Sneak attacks are cool, but, when your sneak attacking a mob just because he isn't targeting you, is that really a sneak attack? Let us assassinate mobs... Add damage on top of "sneak attack damage" if your actually sneaking, maybe, auto-crit? That would make me happy.
Then you can also add hiding in plain sight as a feat, that I'm sure a ton of people wpuld love to take.

Jumping. Add more places where jump is requred, and quit taking away cool places to jump too...Remove all invisible barriers from stormreach, remove instancing from in-town, let us jump around from the harbor all the way to the back of house k(and on top of their puny bank?). woot?

Tumbling...there needs to be an easier way to do it...maybe...if you double-tap a key you can tumble? That would be a really effective way to dodge spells... Also make it add to the reflex save while being used(if it doesnt already...it should...) If it's used at the right time, you should be able to dodge almost anything...

Heal and Repair. Let us use healers kits and repair kits on people that aren't incapped. If I'm at 50 hp, and I have a high heal skill ,can I plz use that kit to heal myself a bit? (:

Swim...eh...this could really be improved if u added underwater fighting into the game...(:

UMD...could use a change, but what I'm thinking, it would take a game change for that one...I'll mention later...

Also, some skills have multiple stats that oculd, and should influence them... Like intimidate, it could get a boost from cha, str, int, and wis...


Also, you could add another section for some skills, like UMD. A "Trainable skills" section or something like that. Where, in your free time, you can go buy and read a book for a certain magical device, do a mini-game or something, and when you beat it, you can now use that certain magical device? Like, you want to learn how to use runes... So, you buy a tome of understanding(runes style!), read it, play throug ha mini game or something, and then you can use runes... There would be, of course, different levels... This could be a potential 'Content Factory™' here...lol...

I could post more, but I feel I've said enough for now...

VKhaun
07-01-2009, 06:53 PM
And take out the cross-class skill thing. If I wan to put a point into a skill, I better get a full point in that skill. Why should only a few classes get to use magical devices? If I were a fighter, and wanted to learn how to use magical devices, I would go to somebody who knows what theyre doing and learn from them, just like a rogue would...

That's why it takes... rogue training! :O




Also, add lots of extra damage for attacks while your sneaking. Sneak attacks are cool, but, when your sneak attacking a mob just because he isn't targeting you, is that really a sneak attack? Let us assassinate mobs... Add damage on top of "sneak attack damage" if your actually sneaking, maybe, auto-crit? That would make me happy.


Assassinate is in the game already.
Sneak attack damage goes up with level.





Jumping. Add more places where jump is requred, and quit taking away cool places to jump too...Remove all invisible barriers from stormreach, remove instancing from in-town, let us jump around from the harbor all the way to the back of house k(and on top of their puny bank?). woot?


/signed? I love hopping around town, too.





Tumbling...there needs to be an easier way to do it...maybe...if you double-tap a key you can tumble? That would be a really effective way to dodge spells... Also make it add to the reflex save while being used(if it doesnt already...it should...) If it's used at the right time, you should be able to dodge almost anything...


Requiring block builds in a delay and creates strategy. I can see how you'd prefer more twitch, I tend to agree, but it's not a 'bad' game mechanic.



Heal and Repair. Let us use healers kits and repair kits on people that aren't incapped. If I'm at 50 hp, and I have a high heal skill ,can I plz use that kit to heal myself a bit? (:


Why skill based over chugging a pot or whipping a wand?




Swim...eh...this could really be improved if u added underwater fighting into the game...(:


Please God, no. LOL
Swim is more a place holder to show armor effect IMHO. It would be neat to see it have a use, but about 99% of the game would have to reroll if it was good. :P




Also, some skills have multiple stats that oculd, and should influence them... Like intimidate, it could get a boost from cha, str, int, and wis...


I could see str/con for intimidate in concept, but it doesn't really work because of all the stat increases at the end of the game. Any skill would be nearly no-fail at that point. Needs to stay one stat or it'd wreck balance.

Hafeal
07-01-2009, 07:03 PM
Responses in blue:


Please?

And take out the cross-class skill thing. If I wan to put a point into a skill, I better get a full point in that skill. Why should only a few classes get to use magical devices? If I were a fighter, and wanted to learn how to use magical devices, I would go to somebody who knows what theyre doing and learn from them, just like a rogue would...

The skill is available to a fighter - the 1/2 point indicates the extra work you need to put into it to learn it v. those who naturally so inclined. This is why each class has its own skill set for which there i no penalty.

Make sneaking more useful...First, turn it into a single skill(sneak, not hide + move silently, just sneak), then, make it so that mobs lose target of you when you go out of their line of sight...

There is a difference between hiding and moving silently. Mobs DO sometimes lose target when you move out of their line of sight - that does NOT mean they lose aggro too. :cool:

Also, add lots of extra damage for attacks while your sneaking. Sneak attacks are cool, but, when your sneak attacking a mob just because he isn't targeting you, is that really a sneak attack? Let us assassinate mobs... Add damage on top of "sneak attack damage" if your actually sneaking, maybe, auto-crit? That would make me happy.

If you want this, make a rogue and take the Way of the Assassin line.


Then you can also add hiding in plain sight as a feat, that I'm sure a ton of people wpuld love to take.

Jumping. Add more places where jump is requred, and quit taking away cool places to jump too...Remove all invisible barriers from stormreach, remove instancing from in-town, let us jump around from the harbor all the way to the back of house k(and on top of their puny bank?). woot?

You do know there is nothing beyond the boundaries, right? It's not like there is a whole world out there. The devs have also limited jump in circumstances to prevent abuse and exploits.

Tumbling...there needs to be an easier way to do it...maybe...if you double-tap a key you can tumble? That would be a really effective way to dodge spells... Also make it add to the reflex save while being used(if it doesnt already...it should...) If it's used at the right time, you should be able to dodge almost anything...

You can change your tumble key in your settings if you would like to find a more efficient way to use it.


Heal and Repair. Let us use healers kits and repair kits on people that aren't incapped. If I'm at 50 hp, and I have a high heal skill ,can I plz use that kit to heal myself a bit? (:

These are not meant to be "heal spells". And I can count on one hand how many times I use them after the harbor. Even within the Harbor now that I think about it.

Swim...eh...this could really be improved if u added underwater fighting into the game...(:

Maybe some day ... admittedly swim is really only useful in 2-3 quests at the moment.


UMD...could use a change, but what I'm thinking, it would take a game change for that one...I'll mention later...

Also, some skills have multiple stats that oculd, and should influence them... Like intimidate, it could get a boost from cha, str, int, and wis...

Asking for some tough programming changes. Perhaps when they institute a skill respec.

Also, you could add another section for some skills, like UMD. A "Trainable skills" section or something like that. Where, in your free time, you can go buy and read a book for a certain magical device, do a mini-game or something, and when you beat it, you can now use that certain magical device? Like, you want to learn how to use runes... So, you buy a tome of understanding(runes style!), read it, play throug ha mini game or something, and then you can use runes... There would be, of course, different levels... This could be a potential 'Content Factory™' here...lol...

Interesting. They have a lot of problems with skills in the programming end though, this would really mess it up - at least until they get a handle on doing skill respecs. I have a feeling they may need a total revamp of the skills one day just like they did with enhancements. But it is on the back-burner until EU comes out.


I could post more, but I feel I've said enough for now...

shores11
07-01-2009, 07:13 PM
Please?

And take out the cross-class skill thing. If I wan to put a point into a skill, I better get a full point in that skill. Why should only a few classes get to use magical devices? If I were a fighter, and wanted to learn how to use magical devices, I would go to somebody who knows what theyre doing and learn from them, just like a rogue would...



Wow, I have seen completely silly suggestions in the past but this one takes the cake. If there were no limits to what each class could do then there would be no need to have different classes. Basically everyone would just choose a general character and and skills and feats and mostly everyone would be a very similar class.

This is not D&D, if that is what you want then feel free to try out a super uber MMO that has no history or ruleset and you can do what ever you want at any time to your character. Then watch the game go away in less than 6 months.

Draccus
07-01-2009, 07:23 PM
And take out the cross-class skill thing. If I wan to put a point into a skill, I better get a full point in that skill. Why should only a few classes get to use magical devices? If I were a fighter, and wanted to learn how to use magical devices, I would go to somebody who knows what theyre doing and learn from them, just like a rogue would...

Good points. While they're at it, just take out that whole weapon proficiency thing. If my rogue wants to use a longsword, he'd learn to use one just like a fighter.

And get rid of this whole spell list thing. Why place an arbitrary limit on how many spells my cleric or wizard or sorc can cast, just let me pick and choose which ones I need.

Speaking of spells, why should only casters get to cast them? If my rogue wants to cast Firewall, Bladebarrier, and Heal, he'd just walk into the temple and get one of those priests to teach him the spell.

And why would different classes get different hit points per level? What's so magical about being a barbarian or fighter when it comes to how much damage you can take? Give us all d12 hit die.

Speaking of dice, why even have them? I mean, just let me do damage every time I swing, even if I roll lower than a monster's AC...oh, wait...nm, take that one back. :)

Kromize
07-01-2009, 09:48 PM
[Insert rhetorical question-insult here] Please learn how to use your brain before posting.

Now, on to my point. There is no reason whatsoever that cross-class skills should be in. I can understand how a ertain class might be better with certain skills, so, why not give them bonuses to those skills as they level up to show it? As I said before, why can't a single being(any class whatsoever) just learn what they want to learn? There shouldn't be any penalty just because some guy decided that class shouldnt be learning that skill... If I want to learn how to jump, I would train for that, if I want to learn how to balance myself, I would train for that...

However, if I wanted to learn how to cast a firewall, I would train for that too, but, it would take a lot of training, and probably a few levels into a mage class, so I can learn to use magic, while continuing to learn to jum and balance...etc...


Why skill based over chugging a pot or whipping a wand?
Becuase, there is a physical limit on how much liquid(even if its magical) you can drink. And, because, it would make it a more useful skill, and you wouln't have to waste money to heal yourself, or others...
Hurt abd have time to rest, use your heal skill.
Hurt and surrounded by mobs, chug a pot or whip a wand.
Pretty simple I would think...


I could see str/con for intimidate in concept, but it doesn't really work because of all the stat increases at the end of the game. Any skill would be nearly no-fail at that point. Needs to stay one stat or it'd wreck balance.
Different stats influencing the skill would make for different ways to use the skill. Insulting them(int), showing them your strength to get them to fight you instead(str), provoking them(cha), different ways to use it, so, you would only use one stat for a booster. Maybe you xould have different intimidates on your hotbar, with different animations too. One would flex, another laugh, another taunt, etc... I see no reason that can't be done.


Assassinate is in the game already.
Sneak attack damage goes up with level.
like I said, sneak attack damage doesn't really act like you would expect sneak attack damage too, add REAL sneak attacks... Not just opportunity attacks as thee are seemingly made to be.
And I wasn't referring to assassinate, I was using it as a descriptor of what we could do? If i sneak up behind a mob, and attack him, I expect to at least get an auto crit or something, and be able to finish him very quickly, thus being an assassination.


That's why it takes... rogue training! :O
Why can't my fighter train his skills just like the rogue trained his skills?



Basically so far I see not so great replies really, so I won't reply much further.

except for this: I honestly believe DnD is flawed greatly as it was made, and DDO copied those flaws, which was a bad idea.

anastasius
07-02-2009, 02:11 AM
[Insert rhetorical question-insult here] Please learn how to use your brain before posting.

Now, on to my point. There is no reason whatsoever that cross-class skills should be in. I can understand how a ertain class might be better with certain skills, so, why not give them bonuses to those skills as they level up to show it? As I said before, why can't a single being(any class whatsoever) just learn what they want to learn?

...

except for this: I honestly believe DnD is flawed greatly as it was made, and DDO copied those flaws, which was a bad idea.

Well then, seeing as how this is Dungeons and Dragons Online based on edition 3.5 what did you expect? Cross class skills are in there for a reason as others have pointed in what you call rhetorical question insults.

You want a reason why cross-class skills are in this game? Because cross-class skills are in the game it is based on.

If you are a chemist or accountant or whatever irl, you spend most of your time learning skills to help you do that job. The time you have available to learn other things is lessened. In effect you take a cross class skill penalty irl. In this game, I can learn skills that are in my profession (what ever profession that may be, Fighter, cleric, and so on); however, I have less time to learn skills that aren't in my profession, hence the cross class skill progression.

Uska
07-02-2009, 02:31 AM
Was going to read but then I saw take out cross skill thing and realized insta fail this dnd some classes are better at some skill period.:mad:

as to giving bonuses to classes that are good at those skills why change things when the cross class thing has the same effect and is already in place

Kromize
07-02-2009, 04:54 PM
Well then, seeing as how this is Dungeons and Dragons Online based on edition 3.5 what did you expect? Cross class skills are in there for a reason as others have pointed in what you call rhetorical question insults.

You want a reason why cross-class skills are in this game? Because cross-class skills are in the game it is based on.

If you are a chemist or accountant or whatever irl, you spend most of your time learning skills to help you do that job. The time you have available to learn other things is lessened. In effect you take a cross class skill penalty irl. In this game, I can learn skills that are in my profession (what ever profession that may be, Fighter, cleric, and so on); however, I have less time to learn skills that aren't in my profession, hence the cross class skill progression.

foolish... Based on this, as a fighter, I can find any one of the skills in the game very useful to do my 'job', so, why can't I learn them all equally? Same goes for being a sorc, cleric, barb... Except for disable, open lock, perform, concentration...which brings up another pint, why don't they have more class-based skills?
Why can't I train trip or stunning blow as a fighter? Why are these essentially based on how strong I am, or how magical my weapon is?(or slightly the dumb enhancements)



Was going to read but then I saw take out cross skill thing and realized insta fail this dnd some classes are better at some skill period.:mad:
...fail...


as to giving bonuses to classes that are good at those skills why change things when the cross class thing has the same effect and is already in place
Because, "some classes are better at some skill period.:mad:". In the current system, with no standard bonus, you can choose not to learn a skill, and then hey your not better at that skill than another class who didn't have it as a class skill and learned it via cross-class system. If, however, there were standard bonuses for classes that were generally good with those skills, it would help out alot, and make a lot more sense.

Say, a sorc that didn't put any points into concentration? That's just dumb. But, if the bonuses system was in, then the sorc would naturally be good at concentrating...which would make a lot more sense!

Get what I'm saying? Or is it all just too much above your knowledge level?
..^
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Uska
07-02-2009, 11:26 PM
foolish... Based on this, as a fighter, I can find any one of the skills in the game very useful to do my 'job', so, why can't I learn them all equally? Same goes for being a sorc, cleric, barb... Except for disable, open lock, perform, concentration...which brings up another pint, why don't they have more class-based skills?
Why can't I train trip or stunning blow as a fighter? Why are these essentially based on how strong I am, or how magical my weapon is?(or slightly the dumb enhancements)



...fail...


Because, "some classes are better at some skill period.:mad:". In the current system, with no standard bonus, you can choose not to learn a skill, and then hey your not better at that skill than another class who didn't have it as a class skill and learned it via cross-class system. If, however, there were standard bonuses for classes that were generally good with those skills, it would help out alot, and make a lot more sense.

Say, a sorc that didn't put any points into concentration? That's just dumb. But, if the bonuses system was in, then the sorc would naturally be good at concentrating...which would make a lot more sense!

Get what I'm saying? Or is it all just too much above your knowledge level?
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NO your knowledge level of 3.5 dnd fails you want game like you have stated come up with money and develop and stop trying to reinvent the wheel, the skill system works fine, although have a few more useful skills would be nice I am not sure what ones would need to be brought int. And you say the replies arent great because we state your idea is wrong which they are.

Black_Flamingo
07-02-2009, 11:41 PM
You say that rather than the cross-class system, classes should have bonuses for skills they are naturally good at.

But is that not what the class-skills represent?

It offers the bonus of being, for all intents and purposes, twice as good (in sheer training, at least) as someone who never recieved these bonuses.

A class that is not naturally good at these skills, however, has less success, and cannot achieve the same level of aptitude as those to whom it comes more naturally, without specialized training (a few levels of the class in question).

Uska
07-02-2009, 11:56 PM
You say that rather than the cross-class system, classes should have bonuses for skills they are naturally good at.

But is that not what the class-skills represent?

It offers the bonus of being, for all intents and purposes, twice as good (in sheer training, at least) as someone who never recieved these bonuses.

A class that is not naturally good at these skills, however, has less success, and cannot achieve the same level of aptitude as those to whom it comes more naturally, without specialized training (a few levels of the class in question).

I wouldnt bother he is to busy trying to reinvent the wheel.

VKhaun
07-03-2009, 12:50 AM
He's balancing for a group of people playing thematicly, and trying to sell it to a forum of stat tweakers in a game of min maxers.

I find this enjoyable to watch unfold. :)

Uska
07-03-2009, 01:11 AM
He's balancing for a group of people playing thematicly, and trying to sell it to a forum of stat tweakers in a game of min maxers.

I find this enjoyable to watch unfold. :)

No he is trying to ask for something neither needed or wanted

VKhaun
07-03-2009, 01:13 AM
No he is trying to ask for something neither needed or wanted

And no one posting here is capable of granting or denying that request.
So back to my comment we go.

Uska
07-03-2009, 01:17 AM
And no one posting here is capable of granting or denying that request.
So back to my comment we go.

As pointless as his

Kromize
07-03-2009, 11:52 AM
A class that is not naturally good at these skills, however, has less success, and cannot achieve the same level of aptitude as those to whom it comes more naturally, without specialized training (a few levels of the class in question).

A class is just a path that the person chooses to take. Why should that make the person naturally good at certain skills? Why shouldn't the person himself be naturally good at certain skills, no matter what class he chooses?

When you train for something, you will always increase your skill level of skills that you use for that training.

A class is just a path, and shouldn't dictate whether the person is naturally good at the skills or not. It should only give a person more training with certain skills. And, if they were naturally good at skills, wouldn't it make more sense to get a standard bonus as you level anyways, showing that your naturally good and thus don't need to train it to make it better?

Uska, you enjoy trolling and flaming?

ps: I know 3.5 good enough to know that it has many flaws in it's design. Which is why I choose to not learn any more about it than I need to know.

anastasius
07-05-2009, 07:35 PM
A class is just a path, and shouldn't dictate whether the person is naturally good at the skills or not. It should only give a person more training with certain skills. And, if they were naturally good at skills, wouldn't it make more sense to get a standard bonus as you level anyways, showing that your naturally good and thus don't need to train it to make it better?

Uska and Vkhaun, you enjoy trolling and flaming?

ps: I know 3.5 good enough to know that it has many flaws in it's design. Which is why I choose to not learn any more about it than I need to know.

Duh, that is why we have feats called skill focus. If you are naturally good at something then you obviously have a feat for it.

Kromize, the only troll in this thread is you. We have listened to what you have had to say and given you our reasons why it shouldn't be that way. Your response has been how great you think you are and the rest of us are wrong. Truly you are a legend in your own mind.

VKhaun
07-05-2009, 08:05 PM
...and Vkhaun, you enjoy trolling and flaming?

Hell yeah. But I didn't flame or troll anyone here. o.O

Kromize
07-05-2009, 08:14 PM
Duh, that is why we have feats called skill focus. If you are naturally good at something then you obviously have a feat for it.

Oh, so, to be naturally good at something you have to train extra hard and don't train on anything else...I get it now...:confused:

And vkhaun, I know, my bad...

anastasius
07-06-2009, 02:19 AM
Oh, so, to be naturally good at something you have to train extra hard and don't train on anything else...I get it now...:confused:

And vkhaun, I know, my bad...

Oh, so, to be naturally good at everything you don't need to focus your training on anything, you can just train everything equally well. You don't need to train to be an astrophysicist, you can do just as well as a proctologist like Kromize. Now I get it.

You don't need to spend time learning the wishbone offense in football you can just as easily become a chess grandmaster and a world class pianist and Nobel Prize winning economist all at the same time. After all in Kromize world everyone is equally good at all skills.

And Kromize, the comment about skill focus was based on your comment about being naturally good at something. If you are naturally good at a skill there are already rules in place. Not that you would ever understand that; after all it is not "something you need to know." (Oh wait a minute you are not as good in that as you are in other things. You must have been 3.5 gimped because you could only put .5 skill points into your gaming skill every level.)

Visty
07-06-2009, 04:00 AM
why we have crossclass-skills?
cause gary said so

done
best argument ever :)

Uska
07-06-2009, 04:23 AM
cause gary said so

done
best argument ever :)


Not really because he never did 3.0-3.5 wasnt gary's baby 1st editon was no crossclass skills there.

Visty
07-06-2009, 04:27 AM
Not really because he never did 3.0-3.5 wasnt gary's baby 1st editon was no crossclass skills there.

bah shush...he might not have known it

Enochroot
07-06-2009, 05:55 AM
There were actually some decently fun ideas in the OP - but way to rip it apart about the cross-skills thing and not explore the other ideas or new ideas.

- new twitch to tumble would be great - instantaneous tumble - maybe mobility could give it, would be fantastic

- heal pack thing is ingenius in my opinion - whoever shot this down because "I can count the number of times I've used it in the harbor on one hand" just isn't thinking. That's WHY it needs a revamp. If you could take the heal skill and apply heal kits to people (think the same timer bar as eating a tome or something) - and recoup hp - the heal skill and healing kits would actually be useful again!! Yeah, that would be terrible!


But whatever , keep flaming the cross-class skills suggestion (which of course, I don't agree with either ^^)

Uska
07-06-2009, 06:01 AM
There were actually some decently fun ideas in the OP - but way to rip it apart about the cross-skills thing and not explore the other ideas or new ideas.

- new twitch to tumble would be great - instantaneous tumble - maybe mobility could give it, would be fantastic

- heal pack thing is ingenius in my opinion - whoever shot this down because "I can count the number of times I've used it in the harbor on one hand" just isn't thinking. That's WHY it needs a revamp. If you could take the heal skill and apply heal kits to people (think the same timer bar as eating a tome or something) - and recoup hp - the heal skill and healing kits would actually be useful again!! Yeah, that would be terrible!


But whatever , keep flaming the cross-class skills suggestion (which of course, I don't agree with either ^^)


No the heal pack idea is bad to pots are the way to go tumble is fine and mobility gives more then it does in pnp none of the ideas in the op are worth a nano second of dev time.

Aranticus
07-06-2009, 06:37 AM
OP, if you get a deep cut, why go to a doctor, run to the nearest tailor and get him to stitch it up. oh get your local butcher to help out at the surgical rooms to help with surgery. oh wait there is more, get your barber to do your brazilian wax for you :rolleyes:

Uska
07-06-2009, 06:40 AM
OP, if you get a deep cut, why go to a doctor, run to the nearest tailor and get him to stitch it up. oh get your local butcher to help out at the surgical rooms to help with surgery. oh wait there is more, get your barber to do your brazilian wax for you :rolleyes:

Stop it I cant breathe.:D

Enochroot
07-06-2009, 09:50 AM
No the heal pack idea is bad to pots are the way to go tumble is fine and mobility gives more then it does in pnp none of the ideas in the op are worth a nano second of dev time.

Why exactly are "pots the way to go". That's basically ********. A new way of healing and utilizing another skill + items already in game between fights would be fine. What problem do you have with that exactly?

I was thinking about my mobility comment in the elevator after I posted it - yeah, you're right - but something like if you tumbled quicker with higher tumble ranks, that might be badass and fun as hell.

Stop prioritizing dev time, that is NOT an argument - the PM's will do that - just discuss whether it's a generally good idea or not, and how best to approach it. The rest is clearly up to Turbine, to give us new skills, new content, or for some reason revamp korthos island and 3 barrel cove ...

Alizar
07-06-2009, 10:21 AM
"Because, "some classes are better at some skill period.". In the current system, with no standard bonus, you can choose not to learn a skill, and then hey your not better at that skill than another class who didn't have it as a class skill and learned it via cross-class system. If, however, there were standard bonuses for classes that were generally good with those skills, it would help out alot, and make a lot more sense.

Say, a sorc that didn't put any points into concentration? That's just dumb. But, if the bonuses system was in, then the sorc would naturally be good at concentrating...which would make a lot more sense!

Get what I'm saying? Or is it all just too much above your knowledge level? "

You must be from one of those other MMO's where the training is done automatically for you. Well, here in DDO land we like to be in charge of what our charcter developes in. If you made this an automatic process then this will only succeed in making each class a little more the same. I would rather opt for making more rules and choices that make the classes more unique. You say not taking conncentration for a sorc is dumb, but maybe I would choose to run with the quicken feat and take umd or jump instead.

Kromize
07-06-2009, 04:59 PM
You must be from one of those other MMO's where the training is done automatically for you. Well, here in DDO land we like to be in charge of what our charcter developes in. If you made this an automatic process then this will only succeed in making each class a little more the same. I would rather opt for making more rules and choices that make the classes more unique. You say not taking conncentration for a sorc is dumb, but maybe I would choose to run with the quicken feat and take umd or jump instead.

This doesn't build your character for you. Rather, it gives your character the natural skill bonuses you would get for training as a <class>. And you would still be able to choose what skills you want to train for.


And, about healing kits and the heal skill... If we implemented this, we could change the gameplay completely. Also, put a good delay on healing pots, because, however you look at it, theres no way a person can: a) drink that fast, and b) fit that much liquid in their body(50 pots down in 1 quest...sheesh). Also, let us sit down and eat/drink while in a quest, with a nice long timer on how often we can do it...(:

baddax
07-06-2009, 05:11 PM
partial jump/ tumble ability.
If i have a 30 jump and want to jump on a 4 foot ledge, why must i jump my entire 30 ? This is especially noticable in quests like coalesence chamber. I have had casters go in and start handing out jump to everyone in the party. I will specifically tell them not to give it to me on my fighters as my jump is more than sufficient and anything more makes the quest more difficult.

Use the repair skill to repair armor and weapons?

Jay203
07-06-2009, 05:23 PM
A class is just a path that the person chooses to take. Why should that make the person naturally good at certain skills? Why shouldn't the person himself be naturally good at certain skills, no matter what class he chooses?

When you train for something, you will always increase your skill level of skills that you use for that training.

A class is just a path, and shouldn't dictate whether the person is naturally good at the skills or not. It should only give a person more training with certain skills. And, if they were naturally good at skills, wouldn't it make more sense to get a standard bonus as you level anyways, showing that your naturally good and thus don't need to train it to make it better?

um.... you kinda made an argument against yourself there...
yes, a class is a path that a person chooses to take, when you choose to take the fighter class, it means you're pursuing the path of weapon prowess
when you choose to follow the path of a rogue, you choose to train in various twinking skills
so if you want that full rank of UMD for ever point you spend in it, go take a path that includes UMD as part of its path career =_=;;;

YOU are making the decisions here, not the class, you choose the path you want to follow, you choose the things you want to focus in as you gain experience

boldarblood
07-06-2009, 05:38 PM
DnD called - they want there game back.

norman_quickfinger
07-06-2009, 06:02 PM
Folks it is safe to say we are reading the ranting of a person who never has or just started playing D&D. Dude I'm sorry but when training as a fighter you are not thinking of learning how to cast a spell or sneak attack someone. Please go out and buy the Players Handbook D&D 3.5 and read it before you post stuff like this. If the Devs went and did this there wouldn't be rogues,clerics,fighters and wizards. You would a Race that could do alot of neat stuff and then noone would really play the game. We have enough problems with that (Hint To The Devs). And btw what mmo does that the way you described? Is it the one that is no longer on-line?

norman_quickfinger
07-06-2009, 06:03 PM
DnD called - they want there game back.

Nope sorry but D&D doesn't claim this one.

Kromize
07-06-2009, 09:25 PM
um.... you kinda made an argument against yourself there...

Really? I'm saying that training for something, will inevitably boost some skills, but, that doesn't mean that you can't customize some of the other training you do... When I'm training as a fighter, or a sorcerer, there isn't only one way I can train as that. If I'm a fighter who wants to use wands to, then I would train my UMD...whats wrong with that?



Folks it is safe to say we are reading the ranting of a person who never has or just started playing D&D. Dude I'm sorry but when training as a fighter you are not thinking of learning how to cast a spell or sneak attack someone. Please go out and buy the Players Handbook D&D 3.5 and read it before you post stuff like this. If the Devs went and did this there wouldn't be rogues,clerics,fighters and wizards. You would a Race that could do alot of neat stuff and then noone would really play the game. We have enough problems with that (Hint To The Devs). And btw what mmo does that the way you described? Is it the one that is no longer on-line?

Haha. You must not have understood much of what I posted... In fact, I'm not entirely sure on how you thought this was a reply to me...was it? And since when do skills determin what class you are?

norman_quickfinger
07-07-2009, 12:14 AM
Really? I'm saying that training for something, will inevitably boost some skills, but, that doesn't mean that you can't customize some of the other training you do... When I'm training as a fighter, or a sorcerer, there isn't only one way I can train as that. If I'm a fighter who wants to use wands to, then I would train my UMD...whats wrong with that?


Haha. You must not have understood much of what I posted... In fact, I'm not entirely sure on how you thought this was a reply to me...was it? And since when do skills determin what class you are?

Yes that was a reply to your first post. I just didn't quote it. Look this is D&D and these are the rules of it and the Devs are trying to stay as close to them as they can. Class skills are what define each character. If you want to train in UMD then do it but it will cost you twice as much if you are not a rogue or a bard. They are here to keep a certain amount of balance to the game. If the Devs didn't what you suggested they would have to rewrite the entire game. A few for example : all trap difficulty would have to be greatly increased, the umd of all the items would have to be increased and along with all spell dc's. It sounds easy but it's no where near that easy. Ask anyone into programming and they'll tell you the same thing. So really nothing would change. Just us waiting for the game to come back up after it crashes. And then you would be in The Shroud(for instance) You're up there swinging away at the chicken. You're running low on hit points do you a: hope the battle cleric next to you (that is swinging away at the chicken also) stops long enough to heal you Or b: stop attacking and pull out a scoll of heal(150 pts only) try to cast but can't because you can't make the concentration check. You shouldn't have to make that choice. If you still think it's that easy send a dev a privite message and ask them. If you don't believe them then I don't know what to tell you.

norman_quickfinger
07-07-2009, 12:27 AM
Ok Kromize I should have read you profile before I reply to you. You go to Nebraska Wesleyan University for Computer Science. What is you major there before I continue this post?

Jay203
07-07-2009, 12:33 AM
Really? I'm saying that training for something, will inevitably boost some skills, but, that doesn't mean that you can't customize some of the other training you do... When I'm training as a fighter, or a sorcerer, there isn't only one way I can train as that. If I'm a fighter who wants to use wands to, then I would train my UMD...whats wrong with that?

think of taking a class as going thru the type of training you wish for your character
if you're following the path of rogue, your studies would be more... focused... than if you follow the path of the sword
of course you'll end up with "some" skills should you choose to follow the path of the sword all the way, that's way you're even allowed to train in that skill whether you're following the path of rogue/bard or not, you just won't be as effecient as if you had followed the path of the rogue
do realize that it doesn't matter if they give you full rank in UMD as you spend while giving Rogue/bard bonuses to make them stand out. they'll just end up upping the UMD check on all things so it'll be the same as if you get .5/skill point spent as fighter =_=

Kromize
07-07-2009, 12:54 PM
Ok Kromize I should have read you profile before I reply to you. You go to Nebraska Wesleyan University for Computer Science. What is you major there before I continue this post?
lol...this is as much of a reply as that one deserves... read carefully.

and, if don't recall, didn't dnd originally NOT have cross-class skills?

dnd is an everchanging game, why try to stay as close as possible to an imperfect version of it? Make this the best you can possibly make it, don't limit yourself. This is DDO, not dnd. Make it DDO, not dnd.



do realize that it doesn't matter if they give you full rank in UMD as you spend while giving Rogue/bard bonuses to make them stand out. they'll just end up upping the UMD check on all things so it'll be the same as if you get .5/skill point spent as fighter =_=

Why be so pessimistic? Doomsayer.... This is what I'm trying to get changed... If I'm a fighter and I want to use magical devices, I want to %^$%$#% train to use them, not the half-a#$ed cross-class **** we get now... This is what I'm saying is currently broken with the skill system...

Drfirewater79
07-07-2009, 01:09 PM
I like a lot of the decisions and for any other mmo it would work

but

DDO still has the 3.5 name attached to it

one thing i think they could do which wouldn't be far from real rules is make better items that enhanced skills like umd instead of it being best you can get is gloves from titan i think they should change it to at level bonus like Disable Device.

Umd 15 gloves and boots should beable to be found that way at lvl 20 even a fighter could use a cure mod wand

another would be heal and repair skill need fixing

if heal and repair allowed you to get extra points on your heals and heals against warforged it would make cleric/FVS/bard competition greater ... best cleric builds might be wis/int builds with uber heal skill and hitting crazy crit heals would be fun .. and might make people who dont enjoy playing healers try it out again.

Jay203
07-07-2009, 01:43 PM
lWhy be so pessimistic? Doomsayer.... This is what I'm trying to get changed... If I'm a fighter and I want to use magical devices, I want to %^$%$#% train to use them, not the half-a#$ed cross-class **** we get now... This is what I'm saying is currently broken with the skill system...

then go rogue or bard! we're lucky we can even invest ANY point into UMD with lvls of rogue or bard at the moment!
the current system isn't broken for UMD, it's broken for tumble, heal, repair, and listen >=(

norman_quickfinger
07-07-2009, 01:50 PM
Ok Kromize since you didn't answer my question in my last post I'll guess you're not there for computers. So I'll explain it a different way. In PnP your idea could acually happen. They just put out a new book. But in an on-line mmo the cost is way more. If they remove the cross class skill penalty the Devs would almost have to redo the entire game. They would have to raise all the dc and umd checks on every single thing in the game. And they won't do that for 2 reasons: 1) it won't make a difference on you making it check.Because instead of a umd of 40 on a heal scoll they could raise that to a 60 umd. And 2) it would cost alot of money to reproggram all that.

Also most people that play fighters or barbarians don't usally put anything in charisma unless they are playing to multi-class. They usally put it in str,con and sometimes dex(mainly for a barb to help the ac during rage).But as I said in PnP yes your idea could be implemented for alot less cost. But not here it would just cost to much. And if you don't belive me ask a dev. You know the ones that make those kind of dessions.

Nott
07-07-2009, 03:43 PM
Really? I'm saying that training for something, will inevitably boost some skills, but, that doesn't mean that you can't customize some of the other training you do... When I'm training as a fighter, or a sorcerer, there isn't only one way I can train as that. If I'm a fighter who wants to use wands to, then I would train my UMD...whats wrong with that?Nothing stops you from training UMD... nothing at all. However, your overall fighter training gives you more aptitude for other skills. Equally, Bard (for example) receives overall class training that improves their aptitude for UMD. You can each learn the other's skills while maintaining your current classes, but you cannot learn them as effectively. You suggested replacing the current system with a "bonus" for the class that has the proper aptitude? Dude... that's exactly what has been done. Bard and Rogue get a bonus of double the benefit of UMD training versus other classes training in the same skill. You're a CS student? Do you think a History major is going to get the same benefit from your Algorithms class as you? Sure, they'll get -some- benefit, but not nearly as much. On the other hand, if they change majors (read: train in a different class, for at least a level), they'll absorb some of that benefit. Not as much, until they've got as many years (read: levels) in the program, but their general course of studies will improve their ability to learn the new material.



Haha. You must not have understood much of what I posted... In fact, I'm not entirely sure on how you thought this was a reply to me...was it? And since when do skills determin what class you are?Skills don't determine what class you are. Your class, however, does determine the skills you are equipped to learn efficiently. If you want to learn skills that another class is more capable of, be thankful that you can! However, you're going to do it at a lower degree of efficiency. In this game, that means you can only learn half as efficiently. You don't have to like the way it is (and clearly you don't)... and there are other games that don't even have the concept of a class, just skills. D&D and DDO, however, do contain a class, and that class conveys you various benefits above and beyond your absolute skill selection. An example is the base attack bonus and extra feats a fighter gets, versus a bard and rogue. While not technically part of the set of skills, these improvements to a fighter's character are significant, and justify having a more difficult time learning other class's skills. You do have an option to cross-class, if you're looking to straddle the skill set.

Kromize
07-07-2009, 11:06 PM
Your class, however, does determine the skills you are equipped to learn efficiently.

Wrong. Your being determines what skills you are equipped to learn. Some people just are NOT good at doing certain things, and vice versa... your class is just a path you choose to train in, and nothing more. It should have no effect on how easily you can learn certain skills. It should, however, give a standard bonus because of the skills you generally use as a part of training in that class...

Enochroot
07-07-2009, 11:11 PM
Wrong. Your being determines what skills you are equipped to learn. Some people just are NOT good at doing certain things, and vice versa... your class is just a path you choose to train in, and nothing more. It should have no effect on how easily you can learn certain skills. It should, however, give a standard bonus because of the skills you generally use as a part of training in that class...

And you don't think what kind of person you are influences what path you take in life?

Have you ever met:

- a bunch of sales people
- a bunch of developers
- a bunch of marketing people

Do you think those people are similar in certain ways because of their JOB training? No. You can't detach the two. Your job can EASILY be correlated with how easily you learn certain skills.

Kromize
07-09-2009, 01:41 PM
And you don't think what kind of person you are influences what path you take in life?

Have you ever met:

- a bunch of sales people
- a bunch of developers
- a bunch of marketing people

Do you think those people are similar in certain ways because of their JOB training? No. You can't detach the two. Your job can EASILY be correlated with how easily you learn certain skills.
Actually, they aren't all alike. You just assume they are because they have the tag "sales person", "developer", and are biased, and this is how prejudice develops... wait...wrong topic..

Anyways, just because I ca nbe good at one thing, doesn't mean I will choose to train in that one thing. What if I could be a great sorcerer, but want to be a fighter instead? Can I train UMD now plz?



since you didn't answer my question in my last post

hint: "Nebraska Wesleyan University" That is the name of the college. Now, get that through your thick skull and see if you can answer your question, via information that has always been there. (; Are have you been hit by a truly terrible feeble mind?

norman_quickfinger
07-09-2009, 04:20 PM
Ok with your last post it's apparent that you're not even listening to any of us. And trying to explain it to you is a complete waste of time. BTW with the college that you go to what's your major GENDER STUDIES or PRE-NURSING. Yes I did look at the website. Build you toon how ever you want. And if you're on the server that I play on I won't group with a Sorc trying to be a fighter. And Clerics won't heal or ress you after a while. They might not even waste the time to take you to a shrine. So I hope you SKILLS help you swing that sword better and hit more and give you more hps to survive all the damage you'll take. Good Luck to you and enjoy playing by yourself.

Kromize
07-09-2009, 05:07 PM
Ok with your last post it's apparent that you're not even listening to any of us. And trying to explain it to you is a complete waste of time. BTW with the college that you go to what's your major GENDER STUDIES or PRE-NURSING. Yes I did look at the website. Build you toon how ever you want. And if you're on the server that I play on I won't group with a Sorc trying to be a fighter. And Clerics won't heal or ress you after a while. They might not even waste the time to take you to a shrine. So I hope you SKILLS help you swing that sword better and hit more and give you more hps to survive all the damage you'll take. Good Luck to you and enjoy playing by yourself.
http://i14.tinypic.com/85mrdhg.jpg

norman_quickfinger
07-09-2009, 05:15 PM
http://i14.tinypic.com/85mrdhg.jpg

And they seem to be allowing CHILDREN in to colleges nowa days

Angelus_dead
07-09-2009, 05:24 PM
If I were a fighter, and wanted to learn how to use magical devices, I would go to somebody who knows what theyre doing and learn from them, just like a rogue would...
There are people who know that stuff. They're labeled as Rogue Trainers and Bard Trainers. They can help you get 1:1 UMD skillpoints.


Also, add lots of extra damage for attacks while your sneaking. Sneak attacks are cool, but, when your sneak attacking a mob just because he isn't targeting you, is that really a sneak attack?
It would be useful for the game to give a bigger bonus to Sneak Attacks that are true "Surprise" attacks instead of just "Flank" attacks. That would create an actual motivation for Rogues (even without the Assassin II specialty) to sneak up and attack mobs, rather than waiting for other damage-dealers to charge in first and give them flanking hits. If it were up to me, when a mob suffers a true "surprise" attack (when he didn't even know he was under attack), he'd suffer a debuff allowing you to get more sneak attacks on him for the next few seconds. (The duration would depend on how far your Hide/MS exceeded his Spot/Listen)

The D&D rulebook justification for that is that D&D encounters usually end in about 5 rounds, meaning that a single surprise attack can easily cover 20% of the combat. DDO uses inflated hitpoints so combats go for more rounds, so the value of surprise attacks could be raised in compensation.


Heal and Repair. Let us use healers kits and repair kits on people that aren't incapped. If I'm at 50 hp, and I have a high heal skill ,can I plz use that kit to heal myself a bit?
The obvious improvement needed by both Heal and Repair is to allow a character to play a 10 second animation of sitting down and consuming a kit, during which a significant number of hitpoints are recovered.


Swim...eh...this could really be improved if u added underwater fighting into the game..
An easier change would be to allow you to run at full speed while standing in water.

Drfirewater79
07-10-2009, 11:24 AM
An easier change would be to allow you to run at full speed while standing in water.

BOOTS OF BALANCE - +10 balance check .. should the wearers balance be above 20 they are so well balanced that they can walk on top of water gaining no penalties to speed and requiring no swim check for crossing any body of water.

They exist in the core books I believe 3.5 DMG and no its not a quote from the book cause i am at work but walking on water is a balance check not a swim check ... swim skill only deals with the speed in which you swim and the duration you can hold your breath.

However i think it would be cool if they added things like that to the game I have alot of characters with more then 20 balance that would love to walk on water ... even if i had to wear a specific item to do it.

Enochroot
07-11-2009, 08:56 AM
Actually, they aren't all alike. You just assume they are because they have the tag "sales person", "developer", and are biased, and this is how prejudice develops... wait...wrong topic..

Anyways, just because I ca nbe good at one thing, doesn't mean I will choose to train in that one thing. What if I could be a great sorcerer, but want to be a fighter instead? Can I train UMD now plz?


hint: "Nebraska Wesleyan University" That is the name of the college. Now, get that through your thick skull and see if you can answer your question, via information that has always been there. (; Are have you been hit by a truly terrible feeble mind?

Get back to me once you've left college and found the real world.

These people are much more alike than your "liberal" "college-minded" "anyone can be anything" drivel. And my sample size here is a cross-section of global IT business, it's not just say, American culture.

Yes, there's a few odd people that can posses multiple skills to cross fields, but 99% of the people in any of the above professions have NATURAL abilities that enhance those jobs.

For example (in ddo terms) -

Sales people - no cross-class penalty to diplomacy
Developers - no cross-class penalty to (i'll go with disable device here)
Marketing - no cross-class penalty in ... bluff

Can these people posses natural affinity for other skills? Maybe, but the odds aren't high. (Percentage of sales population with affinity to development? I'm going with 3% (probably high) - Developer's with affinity for sales skills? Going with ... 5%)

So in game terms, it's simply natural to have different classes have natural affinity towards different things.

Kromize
07-18-2009, 11:11 PM
Get back to me once you've left college and found the real world.

These people are much more alike than your "liberal" "college-minded" "anyone can be anything" drivel. And my sample size here is a cross-section of global IT business, it's not just say, American culture.

Yes, there's a few odd people that can posses multiple skills to cross fields, but 99% of the people in any of the above professions have NATURAL abilities that enhance those jobs.

For example (in ddo terms) -

Sales people - no cross-class penalty to diplomacy
Developers - no cross-class penalty to (i'll go with disable device here)
Marketing - no cross-class penalty in ... bluff

Can these people posses natural affinity for other skills? Maybe, but the odds aren't high. (Percentage of sales population with affinity to development? I'm going with 3% (probably high) - Developer's with affinity for sales skills? Going with ... 5%)

So in game terms, it's simply natural to have different classes have natural affinity towards different things.

And once again, one fails to read, and, comprehend.

I pity thee.

norman_quickfinger
07-18-2009, 11:48 PM
Ok everyone needs to remember that Kromize is a college student and knows how everything works way better than we ever will. So while he's in there learning how to be a nuclear scienctist and a neuro-surgeon at the same time he still graces us with his knowledge with how a mmo game is suppose to run.


Now it's time to wake up Kromize and get over yourself. You will never understand what we are saying because you are narrow minded. When you get out of college and in to the real world you will understand. And if you don't you will never hold a job and will either end up homeless in the streets or in mom and dads basement.

Kromize
07-19-2009, 12:17 AM
Ok everyone needs to remember that Kromize is a college student and knows how everything works way better than we ever will. So while he's in there learning how to be a nuclear scienctist and a neuro-surgeon at the same time he still graces us with his knowledge with how a mmo game is suppose to run.


Now it's time to wake up Kromize and get over yourself. You will never understand what we are saying because you are narrow minded. When you get out of college and in to the real world you will understand. And if you don't you will never hold a job and will either end up homeless in the streets or in mom and dads basement.

Is there a reason for this? Or are you specifically trying to get this thread closed now?

Please refrain from posting such heated and trollish posts in my thread.

http://www.homotron.net/images/homotron/258Troll_spray.jpg

norman_quickfinger
07-19-2009, 11:18 AM
Is there a reason for this? Or are you specifically trying to get this thread closed now?

Please refrain from posting such heated and trollish posts in my thread.

http://www.homotron.net/images/homotron/258Troll_spray.jpg

That wasn't trollish. That is reality. We understand that you want them to drop the cross slass skill penalty. We have explained why it won't happen. But you leave your cute pics and condensening remarks to everyones post. And btw no one single post agreed with you on dropping cross class skills. You are not listening to anyone. You have your mind made up that you're right and everyone one else is wrong. So the only way you will ever see what we are saying is to see for yourself.

Kromize
07-19-2009, 06:45 PM
something smells like...flaming troll...who doesn't understand what it is to have an opinion(even if it is disliked by those who read it)...:(

Know what else was thought to be really stupid, and then later on, made people famous for it? the sun is the center of our solar system, not the earth. The earth is round as well, etc etc... :P

Vordax
07-19-2009, 07:36 PM
Also, put a good delay on healing pots, because, however you look at it, theres no way a person can: a) drink that fast, and b) fit that much liquid in their body(50 pots down in 1 quest...sheesh).

A potion is only 1 ounce of liquid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm). So 50oz is about the same size as a super-big-gulp from 7-11. I think that could be drank in 1 quest.

Vordax

Kromize
07-20-2009, 12:21 AM
A potion is only 1 ounce of liquid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm). So 50oz is about the same size as a super-bug-gulp from 7-11. I think that could be drank in 1 quest.

Vordax

the visual representation s horrible...