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kamimitsu
06-13-2009, 01:19 AM
I previously outlined a suggestion for reworking the Mechanic PrE that was based on an area-DPS approach. Many posters in that thread suggested that DPS wasn't really the answer, and convinced me of the same. I had alluded to an option for Status Effects rather than DPS, which some posters seemed to think might be a good idea. So, here is a rework using some of those suggestions (and some of my own ideas).

First, let me point out that I'm rather underwhelmed with the idea of making Mechanics more useful against constructs or undead from the standpoint of a Wrack/Smite Construct or Backstab Undead ability. There are a few reasons for this, but the most important of them is that I feel the benefits of a rogue PrE should be more broad than additional effectiveness against one or two types of monsters. I also feel, somewhat, that this isn't really in the flavor of a Mechanic. What I mean is that I feel that Mechanic means deals with Traps and Non-living machinery. I didn't come from an Eberron background, so I still view many constructs as "Magically Alive Shells" without machine parts. This view may be erroneous, but that's just how I see it, and doesn't mean that folks who advocate the Construct/Undead line are wrong... it's just not for me.

The concept of this version of Mechanic is a Grenadier/Mine-layer whose grenades and mines mimic many arcane spells (presumably alchemically). This is in line with the view that some rogues take the best of what they see and find a way to work it into their arsenal. Note: The phrase "in addition to all other benefits" does NOT include Wrack Construct or similar abilities. These new abilities are intended to replace that.


Mechanic I: In addition to all other benefits you receive the Throw Grenade ability. (Throw Grenade will be nearly identical in animation and range as the Sunflask).

Throw Grenade: 5 times per rest you can throw a grenade (DC is 10+ Rog levels+DEX mod) with one of the following effects:
Flashbang: Mimics the effects of the Glitterdust spell.
Smokescreen: Mimics the effects of Fog Cloud.
Tanglefoot: Mimics the effects of Web.


Mechanic II: In addition to all other benefits you receive the Reverse Trap ability and the Proximity Mine ability. (Proximity Mine will be nearly identical to Symbol spells but the range and animation will be that of Sunflasks for setting. It will trigger and look like a symbol spell once set). Proximity Mine and Throw Grenade share the same counter for uses per rest.


Proximity Mine: 5 times per rest you can throw a Proximity Mine(DC is 10+ROG levels+DEX mod) with one of the following effects:
Ball Bearings: Mimics the grease spell but only affects opponents.
Pheromone Vial: Mimics the spell Symbol of Persuasion.
Stinkbomb: Combines the Solid Fog and Stinking Cloud spells.

Reverse Trap: If your Disable Device check passes by a margin of 5, then the trap no longer inflicts damage to your party, but will instead inflict damage to enemies.



Mechanic III: In addition to all other benefits you receive the Enhance Trap ability. You also have 3 new Proximity Mines available.

Concussion Mine: Mimics the spell Symbol of Stunning.
C4: Mimics the spell Delayed Blast Fireball (treat Rogue levels as Wizard levels for DMG calculation).
Tryptohpan Bomb: Mimics the spell Symbol of Weakness.

Enhance Trap: If your Disable Device check passes by a margin of 10, then the trap no longer inflicts damage to your party, but will instead inflict normal and additional damage (10% for every number over the 10 margin, to a maximum of 100%) to enemies. i.e. Trap DC is 34. I roll 47. Trap does 130% damage to enemies. (note: This is an edit from straight double damage I had originally proposed in this post).


The Reverse Trap and Enhance trap ability would be "always on" and any trap reversed or enhanced would still count toward the "Traps Disabled" number at the end of a quest.

sephiroth1084
06-13-2009, 01:37 AM
How about one that mimics Bluff, but as an AoE? All the enemies in the area basically go look behind them, exposing themselves to SA. (Prob tier I). I think this would be flavorful, comical, and useful (occasionally).

My suggestions from the other thread not covered here:
-Hamstring everything, reducing speed, and maybe tacking on a little bit of damage over time (tier I or II)
-Mimic mass hold person/monster, paralyzing everything (tier III)

Otherwise, I like the look of these, though enhance trap may be too powerful, and reverse trap both more and less fun than the current state of things...I like being the one to pull stuff through the traps and don't relish the idea of the fighter running off to grab stuff after I bring the trap "down", though this avoids those nasty instances where the rogue rolls a '1' and dieas, leaving everyone else in the lurch.

kamimitsu
06-13-2009, 02:26 AM
How about one that mimics Bluff, but as an AoE? All the enemies in the area basically go look behind them, exposing themselves to SA. (Prob tier I). I think this would be flavorful, comical, and useful (occasionally). I feel Glitterdust approximates this well enough

My suggestions from the other thread not covered here:
-Hamstring everything, reducing speed, and maybe tacking on a little bit of damage over time (tier I or II) I've never found Hamstring that useful, and I only had 3 options per tier.
-Mimic mass hold person/monster, paralyzing everything (tier III) Again with only 3 options per tier, I was torn between Stunning and Mass Hold. At the end, I felt that Hold Monster might be too powerful... Stun is enough to stop the mobs and allow Sneak Attack. Also, I had trouble thinking of a physical Hold other than iron bands/chains which seemed a bit weird).

Otherwise, I like the look of these, though enhance trap may be too powerful, and reverse trap both more and less fun than the current state of things...I like being the one to pull stuff through the traps and don't relish the idea of the fighter running off to grab stuff after I bring the trap "down", though this avoids those nasty instances where the rogue rolls a '1' and dieas, leaving everyone else in the lurch. Thinking it over, double damage IS too much, I've since revised it somewhat

comments in red.

baddax
06-13-2009, 03:23 AM
What about stinking cloud??

Rep for U!
Er sorry out of rep so i owe you one!

kamimitsu
06-13-2009, 03:49 AM
What about stinking cloud??

Rep for U!
Er sorry out of rep so i owe you one!

It's in there. Stinkbomb (both Solid Fog and Stinking Cloud in one delicious package!)

Borror0
06-13-2009, 04:19 AM
Many of the name don't really fits with the lore. Too technologically advanced.

kamimitsu
06-13-2009, 09:10 AM
Many of the name don't really fits with the lore. Too technologically advanced.

If the naming convention is your biggest beef, then count me happy! On that issue though, I just picked what sounded good to me. I don't know jack about Eberron Lore and figured names weren't really that important for a proposal.

Even when I play PnP I don't bother giving my NPCs cool names, because the players won't ever use them. "Don't we have to go talk to 'Prissy-pants King guy' before we go after the giants?"

Angelus_dead
06-13-2009, 11:45 AM
C4: Mimics the spell Delayed Blast Fireball (treat Rogue levels as Wizard levels for DMG calculation).
In warcraft, they call that a Seaforium bomb.

sephiroth1084
06-13-2009, 11:20 PM
In warcraft, they call that a Seaforium bomb.

Okay, so "seaforium bomb" is OUT! :rolleyes:

RobbinB
06-15-2009, 01:58 PM
Many of the name don't really fits with the lore. Too technologically advanced.

Does that mean you otherwise support the suggestions? Names are relatively easy to change.

(Thumbs up from me on the posters ideas.)

Borror0
06-15-2009, 02:00 PM
Does that mean you otherwise support the suggestions? Names are relatively easy to change.

(Thumbs up from me on the posters ideas.)
I like the idea, in general. The rest is more details you really have to playtest.

Angelus_dead
06-15-2009, 03:03 PM
Throw Grenade: 5 times per rest you can throw a grenade (DC is 10+ Rog levels+DEX mod) with one of the following effects
It is inappropriate to use dexterity DCs for an ability like this. Intelligence should apply. Look at it this way: If an Assassin rogue has to use intelligence for the DC of his dagger attack, then the Mechanic can't justify using dexterity for building a bomb.

In addition, it's wrong for grenade effects to advance DC at +1/level, when the real thing (the sorcerer spell it's based on) only advances at 0.5/level (and only if he uses Heighten). For example, a level 7 sorc would cast Web with DC 10+2+7 = 19, while your proposed Mechanic Rogue would have 10+7+7 = 24. Even switching the Mechanic DC from dex to int leaves it as 10+7+4 = 21.

If you feel that reducing the DC makes it too weak, the number of uses could be increased.



Proximity Mine: 5 times per rest you can throw a Proximity Mine(DC is 10+ROG levels+DEX mod) with one of the following effects
Have you noticed how often DDO players cast a "trap spell" as an actual trap? Not much...


Reverse Trap: If your Disable Device check passes by a margin of 5, then the trap no longer inflicts damage to your party, but will instead inflict damage to enemies.
That effect would be bad for gameplay and balance. Players should not be encouraged to drag mobs into traps to kite them back and forth. (If the enemy AI was made aware that there would be some traps they shouldn't stand in, it would be more defensible. But that would entail quite a bit of programming effort)



C4: Mimics the spell Delayed Blast Fireball (treat Rogue levels as Wizard levels for DMG calculation)
It's interesting that this tier 3 ability would be less useful than the Web effect granted at tier one. Consider how often a DDO wizard casts DBF compared to Web... then take away Maximize, Empower, Combustion, and Fire Lore, and he'd use it even less.

Borror0
06-15-2009, 03:09 PM
If you feel that reducing the DC makes it too weak, the number of uses could be increased.
I went by the logic that it would be more limited in use and probably less easy to use (I imaged a longer animation than the equivalent spell) would help balancing it.

I would agree with your other points, however.

wamjratl1
06-15-2009, 03:24 PM
It is inappropriate to use dexterity DCs for an ability like this. Intelligence should apply. Look at it this way: If an Assassin rogue has to use intelligence for the DC of his dagger attack, then the Mechanic can't justify using dexterity for building a bomb. This makes sense to me.

In addition, it's wrong for grenade effects to advance DC at +1/level, when the real thing (the sorcerer spell it's based on) only advances at 0.5/level (and only if he uses Heighten). For example, a level 7 sorc would cast Web with DC 10+2+7 = 19, while your proposed Mechanic Rogue would have 10+7+7 = 24. Even switching the Mechanic DC from dex to int leaves it as 10+7+4 = 21. Also makes sense

If you feel that reducing the DC makes it too weak, the number of uses could be increased. sensible



Have you noticed how often DDO players cast a "trap spell" as an actual trap? Not much... I, for one, would use the ability as often as possible. But yeah, the overarching mentality in the gaem doesn't lend itself to them.


That effect would be bad for gameplay and balance. Players should not be encouraged to drag mobs into traps to kite them back and forth. (If the enemy AI was made aware that there would be some traps they shouldn't stand in, it would be more defensible. But that would entail quite a bit of programming effort)Maybe the enhance trap thing could allow the trap to go off just once or for a few seconds. (I kite mobs through traps whenever i can currently)



It's interesting that this tier 3 ability would be less useful than the Web effect granted at tier one. Consider how often a DDO wizard casts DBF compared to Web... then take away Maximize, Empower, Combustion, and Fire Lore, and he'd use it even less.

I lke the OP's suggestions and your comments makes sense too. Would be a fun ability

Aesop
06-15-2009, 03:32 PM
It is inappropriate to use dexterity DCs for an ability like this. Intelligence should apply. Look at it this way: If an Assassin rogue has to use intelligence for the DC of his dagger attack, then the Mechanic can't justify using dexterity for building a bomb.

In addition, it's wrong for grenade effects to advance DC at +1/level, when the real thing (the sorcerer spell it's based on) only advances at 0.5/level (and only if he uses Heighten). For example, a level 7 sorc would cast Web with DC 10+2+7 = 19, while your proposed Mechanic Rogue would have 10+7+7 = 24. Even switching the Mechanic DC from dex to int leaves it as 10+7+4 = 21.

If you feel that reducing the DC makes it too weak, the number of uses could be increased.


I agree, however, should we take into consideration that Casters use their Primary Stat for Calculation and have other ways to enhance the DC (Items and Feat). If however it required a Thieves Tool expenditure and added that bonus in (depending on the type used... it might work as a Rogue Level + Int Mod + Tool Bonus... would that be out of the question?

we could also give it a Recharge useage instead of a limited use... ala the Paladin Smite. 2 Uses at tier 1 recharge 1 every one to two minutes.





Have you noticed how often DDO players cast a "trap spell" as an actual trap? Not much...

Yeah that's an issue... unless you can throw them and as soon as they come within range of an Aggressive Mob they trigger... maybe



That effect would be bad for gameplay and balance. Players should not be encouraged to drag mobs into traps to kite them back and forth. (If the enemy AI was made aware that there would be some traps they shouldn't stand in, it would be more defensible. But that would entail quite a bit of programming effort)


Honestly I think the effort should be made to improve the AI... barring that maybe have it only last a short duration? Say 15 sec once active per 5 points the Check Exceeds the DC?



It's interesting that this tier 3 ability would be less useful than the Web effect granted at tier one. Consider how often a DDO wizard casts DBF compared to Web... then take away Maximize, Empower, Combustion, and Fire Lore, and he'd use it even less.

Yeah I was concerned about this as well... but I do appreciate the OPs effort





Aesop

kamimitsu
06-15-2009, 09:23 PM
It is inappropriate to use dexterity DCs for an ability like this. Intelligence should apply. Look at it this way: If an Assassin rogue has to use intelligence for the DC of his dagger attack, then the Mechanic can't justify using dexterity for building a bomb. I don't feel it's inappropriate to use DEX. First, constructing a grenade takes considerable DEX if you don't want to blow yourself up. As does handling it during combat and setting the trigger with sufficient sensitivity. Yes, it takes some INT, but I think that steady hands trumps intelligence in this case. Truthfully, however, I'd be fine with INT.

In addition, it's wrong for grenade effects to advance DC at +1/level, when the real thing (the sorcerer spell it's based on) only advances at 0.5/level (and only if he uses Heighten). For example, a level 7 sorc would cast Web with DC 10+2+7 = 19, while your proposed Mechanic Rogue would have 10+7+7 = 24. Even switching the Mechanic DC from dex to int leaves it as 10+7+4 = 21. I'm fine with this. My numbers were just a place to start. I used the Assassin DC as a template. As Borror0 said, coming up with appropriate real world numbers would take testing. Perhaps 1/2 levels, perhaps 3/4. These abilities mimic the original spells, but they aren't meant to be exact duplicates. Mechanics have far less casts per day (as you noted), so these are meant to be tactical w/ high-probability of working as intended. Additionally, Aesop noted that tools might play a factor, which I think is an interesting suggestion. I could go with that (if tools became level restricted) in conjunction with lowered DCs.

If you feel that reducing the DC makes it too weak, the number of uses could be increased. If the DCs are too weak, that maybe necessary. However, I'd prefer less uses and higher DCs in the "don't worry, I've got this door covered, I know it!" kind of vein. Though Aesops suggestion about a 'regenerating timer' instead of 'per day' may work with decreased DCs.



Have you noticed how often DDO players cast a "trap spell" as an actual trap? Not much... The grenades and mines are meant to be thrown. As such they will work nearly identically to their arcane counterparts (setting duration/animation/cooldown to be determined), save that the range would be considerably shortened. I chose this method of delivery for the very reason that trap spells are useless, but symbol spells are not.


That effect would be bad for gameplay and balance. Players should not be encouraged to drag mobs into traps to kite them back and forth. (If the enemy AI was made aware that there would be some traps they shouldn't stand in, it would be more defensible. But that would entail quite a bit of programming effort). I personally would like to see improved AI. In fact, I EXPECT the AI to improve to the point that they avoid traps when possible (after realizing the trap as causing damage). I don't think it is too much to ask for... particularly considering that the game is generally becoming easier. Improved AI would make great progress in re-balancing.



It's interesting that this tier 3 ability would be less useful than the Web effect granted at tier one. Consider how often a DDO wizard casts DBF compared to Web... then take away Maximize, Empower, Combustion, and Fire Lore, and he'd use it even less. I couldn't make this PrE without at least 1 Damage option. The best choice was DBF, which can only fit in at Tier3. I realize it may not be used much, but we don't know what is coming in the future when this might be in interesting tactic in some cases. If nothing else, it allows the mechanic to break down a door that he has insufficient strength to damage.

Comments in red.

Lithic
06-15-2009, 09:41 PM
How would you guys feel about the mechanic PrE giving rogues significant bonuses with mechanical weapons, instead of all this flashbang stuff?

Something like +1 to hit/damage with all xbows per tier, +10% fire rate with all xbows per tier, and if possible an increase to the range of ranged sneak attacks every tier. Add to this the normal bonuses with traps, another +1 to hit/damage vs constructs per tier, and mechanic would be much more viable for rogues who don't always melee. I would expect that the above bonuses would be pretty effective at bringing a ranged rogue into the dps realm of a sword and board rogue at least. Tier 3 could also include a blanket -50% damage (after all other resistances/damage reductions) to anything that has the word "trap" in its name.

kamimitsu
06-15-2009, 11:08 PM
How would you guys feel about the mechanic PrE giving rogues significant bonuses with mechanical weapons, instead of all this flashbang stuff?

Something like +1 to hit/damage with all xbows per tier, +10% fire rate with all xbows per tier, and if possible an increase to the range of ranged sneak attacks every tier. Add to this the normal bonuses with traps, another +1 to hit/damage vs constructs per tier, and mechanic would be much more viable for rogues who don't always melee. I would expect that the above bonuses would be pretty effective at bringing a ranged rogue into the dps realm of a sword and board rogue at least. Tier 3 could also include a blanket -50% damage (after all other resistances/damage reductions) to anything that has the word "trap" in its name.

Until ranged gets balanced somewhat, I'm giving up on thinking about ranged combat. Though your idea has merit. I suspect however that it would appeal most to repeater builds and would need to be designed as such. Perhaps something like:
Tier 1 Prereq: Some repeater feat: "makes all Xbows you fire repeater" with some bells and whistles (as you mentioned).
Tier 2: Increased firing/reload speed and/or bolt types (slashing/budgeoning)
Tier 3: Effects?

DoctorBadWolf
08-26-2009, 02:19 AM
Don't have much time to be online, but I have a suggestion.
Hope it hasn't already been said.

How about an actual lay traps ability?

As in, you bend down, spend a couple seconds tinkering with nothing, as it were, and then there's an area of effect, erm, effect that impedes enemies? could also lay down dungeon style traps, set them up on walls and such. make the main difference between normal dungeon traps and rogue made traps the mechanic by which they're circumvented. Rogue made traps could simply stop functioning after doing to much damage, or on a timer, etc. If your reverse trap and enhance trap ideas end up seeming too powerful, this could be a good alternative.


Dammit. lol some of these thoughts first occured to me in a beta forums thread about making archery rangers more viable without upping dps. Maybe I'll start a thread about that, and get some feedback on this idea there, too.

Hope this is useful.

gratz on this idea getting DDOcast time, btw.