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Tharlak
06-12-2009, 01:13 PM
Sorry, I know there are plenty of threads discussing these items, but I did not come to any conclusions reading them.

I'm looking for a TWF Kopesh Pally (KotC III) with Evasion. I'm looking at Human, but willing to consider anything but warforged (sorry don't like the toasters)

So that is 18Pally / 2 Monk or Rogue.

My struggle is Monk or Rogue.

Stats before equipment (limited to having only +1 tomes) will probably look like:

Str 15 +1tome +3 level = 19
Dex 15 +1 tome +1 level = 17
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Chr 15 +1 tome = 16

Will have Greater TWF, IC Slash, Extend, Toughness, Kopesh for both builds.

Benefit for Rogue is UMD and 1d6 sneak (occasionally)

Benefit for Monk is 2 feats (will get me Power Attack and Oversized TWF above the rogue build).

I don't believe I will get much benefit from Monk AC. Do Pally's benefit as much from UMD as other builds, probably not.

Looking for input.

Vorn
06-12-2009, 01:33 PM
I think it will just come down to your preferred playstyle whether to stay pure or splash (rogue or monk or fighter).

My three pallys (and just started another one:p) all play differently. I prefer the monk splash one because he's a very forgiving build for when I do noob stuff (which is a lot of the time)--not awesome ac, not awesome dps but B's in many categories and hard to kill. The rogue splash is kind of fun for doing stuff with his very high umd and some batman abilities. The pure one who has intimi one I don't play very often because I tend to prefer to hit things and don't want to grind gear for him atm.

I guess you could drop wisdom to 8 if you want a couple of more build points to play with as 8 + tome + item > 14 is all you need for casting purposes. Many people will tell you that OTWF is a waste...it might be now but that extra +2 to hit might be handy some time. I have it on my pally/monk but I don't have extend which many folks will tell you is a sine quo non.

In any case, I don't think you can go far wrong with any of those. Roll it up and take it for a spin--you don't have to spend your tomes on it off the get go--your decision point will be on the dex tome/lvl up point and ITWF. You probably won't even use TWF before, oh say, lvl 10?

eonfreon
06-12-2009, 01:43 PM
Tharlak,

If you go with your proposed stats:15, 15, 14, 8, 10, 15
Then this is what I think:
With an 8 Int even a Human Pally will only have 2 skill points, every other race will have 1, so with Rogue you'll basically be able to only max out one Utility skill, with a few points scattered here and there depending on when you actually take the Rogue levels.
With your stats I would recommend Monk, that way you get 2 extra Feats and Evasion.
So unless you want to max out Intimidate or UMD or Opening Doors or Finding Traps (you won't be able to both Find AND disable Traps with those stats) there is little 2 Rogue Levels will benefit you as opposed to a Monk splash.

One little side note:
Monk will however become a Premium Class so if you have thoughts about F2P and stuff Monk may not be ideal, otherwise as a VIP you'll be fine.

Good luck.

Thanimal
06-12-2009, 02:38 PM
What's the deal with the WF hate lately? People don't like dealing more damage, having better AC, and being to immune to a pile of debilitating effects? Honestly my opinion is that for DPS Paladin with Evasion, WF Paladin 18/Monk 2 is a step above the other options. Of course, I'm open to being proven wrong.

I guess if you just can't have fun playing a WF, then no one should force you. It is a game, after all. But I really think if you make this build as a WF you'll have trouble going back to non-Paladin fleshies. The world is a dangerous place when you aren't immune to practically everything... :)

eonfreon
06-12-2009, 02:56 PM
I’ve played Human Paladin/Rogue’s so here are my suggestions:

If you go down the Human Pally/Rogue route:
Str: 15 +1 Race + 3 level = 19 + 1 Tome = 20
Dex: 15 + 1 Tome +1 level = 17
Con: 11 or 13 + 1 Racial = 12 or 14 + 10 points from Human Toughness III
Int: 11 + 1 Tome for extra skills which will allow you to have a couple of scattered skills and a very nice UMD score (UMD is based on CHA so yeah- this could allow you to seriously cast Heal scrolls and Raise Deads with little to no fail- kind of nice if you work at it)
or
+2 for Combat Expertise (completely unnecessary, but keeps you within “AC-Relevance” Potential should you ever feel like grinding for it) until a +2 Tome falls in your lap, don’t worry about it.
Wis. 10
Cha 15 + 1 Tome = 16 = instant access to Divine Might I – which is very nice.

Whatever you do try to squeeze PA in, somehow.

Pally/Monk will make it easier to squeeze in nice Feats like Extend, Toughness, and PA.

If you prefer the Human Pally/Monk route your stats are fine but you might consider:
15,15,13,8,11,15

13 Con is as good as a 14 Con on a Human because you get to unlock an extra 10 hit points from the Toughness Feat and even out a stat at the same time.
Unless you find it much easier to find +1 Tomes, in which case keep your stats as is, you’ll benefit more, won’t have to worry about + 2 Con Tomes (so take +2 Str at 1750 Favor), and benefit nicely from +3 Tome.

Hope the advice helps.


Oh yeah, btw, I know nothing about Warforge Paladins.
That's up someone else's alley :).

vainangel
06-12-2009, 02:59 PM
I am mixing with ranger. Very fun to play, not sure end game he will stand out, but still fun!

eonfreon
06-12-2009, 03:02 PM
Will type later.

kodiak974
06-12-2009, 03:12 PM
But when you are immune to almost everything then you have chosen the easy button. :)

Tharlak
06-12-2009, 03:26 PM
What's the deal with the WF hate lately? People don't like dealing more damage, having better AC, and being to immune to a pile of debilitating effects? Honestly my opinion is that for DPS Paladin with Evasion, WF Paladin 18/Monk 2 is a step above the other options. Of course, I'm open to being proven wrong.

I guess if you just can't have fun playing a WF, then no one should force you. It is a game, after all. But I really think if you make this build as a WF you'll have trouble going back to non-Paladin fleshies. The world is a dangerous place when you aren't immune to practically everything... :)

Sorry, no real hate, it's more the role play thing. Not that I'm a big RP'er, but been playing PnP DND since the 70's and machine's have never been part of my fantasy setting. Got no problem with them in the game, but it just doesn't feel right when I'm running one. And I have tried running one.

Tharlak
06-12-2009, 03:37 PM
Thanks to all who have posted. A lot to think about.

I'm still no closer to finalizing my decision, but I guess that's a good thing having several great options, not just one mandatory option.

Still inclined for the rogue splash.

eonfreon - I really like the 11 Int (making room for CE should I get a crack at a +2 Int tome).

What do you think of lowering wis to 8 (from Vorn's post) then using a +1 Wis tome, plus items for casting. Then going with a 13 con.

Thanimal
06-12-2009, 03:52 PM
Sorry, no real hate, it's more the role play thing. Not that I'm a big RP'er, but been playing PnP DND since the 70's and machine's have never been part of my fantasy setting. Got no problem with them in the game, but it just doesn't feel right when I'm running one. And I have tried running one.

To each his own! Just seems funny to me -- I started PnP in 1980, and of course never had a character who was a construct (wrist slap for using RP as your reason and then calling WF "machines" :)). But after I played my first WF, I realized they were usually much more fun for me than other races. It's too bad you don't enjoy playing them, especially if you want to a build a DPS Paladin with Evasion.

But, of course, do what is fun for you!

eonfreon
06-12-2009, 04:20 PM
Thanks to all who have posted. A lot to think about.

I'm still no closer to finalizing my decision, but I guess that's a good thing having several great options, not just one mandatory option.

Still inclined for the rogue splash.

eonfreon - I really like the 11 Int (making room for CE should I get a crack at a +2 Int tome).

What do you think of lowering wis to 8 (from Vorn's post) then using a +1 Wis tome, plus items for casting. Then going with a 13 con.

I'm a big fan of Wis 8 too with the stuff you mentioned and getting a 13 Con, but in the end I went against it because I hate when at end game and you get dispelled alot, you waste time switching to an item for something as basic as re-buffing a Divine Favor.

And you only lose 16 Hit Points at Level 16 and 20 when the EndCap goes up- I liked the tradeoff.
Keeping a 10 Wis means that same +1 Tome will mean instant casting of 1st level spells etc... just a tradeoff.

This is the comparison I could think of for Hit Points between an 13 and 11 Con - with some Loot and Grind needed.

Hit Points Con 13 OR Con 11

@ Level 16 = 414 OR 398
Buffs and Gear: 475 OR 459

Paladin (14 * 10 = 140) = 140
+ Rogue (2 * 6 = 12) = 152
+ Toughness Feat (18) = 170
+ Paladin Toughness IV (40) = 210
+ Human Toughness III (30) = 240
+ Constitution Bonus (6 * 16 = 96) = 336
+ Heroic Durability (20) = 356
+ 10 Draconic Vitality = 366
+ Minos Toughness (18) = 384
+ Greater False Life (30) = 414 @ Level 16 OR 398 HP w/ starting Con. 11
+ Shroud Item (45) = 459
+ Rage Pot/Spell (16) = 475 OR 459

Hit Points Con 13 OR Con 11

@ Level 20 = 482 OR 462
Buffs and Gear: 547 OR 527

+ (Paladin (10) + Con (6) + Toughness (1) = 17 * 4 Levels = 68
= 482 @ Level 20 OR 462
+Shroud Item (45) = 527 OR 507
+Rage Pot/Spell (20) = 547 OR 527

This assumes either:
Con.13 + 1 Racial = 14 + 6 Item = 20 + 2 Tome = 22

OR

Con 11 + 1 Racial = 12 + 6 Item = 18 + 2 Tome = 20

Tharlak
06-12-2009, 04:36 PM
Thank you for the very thorough post.

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but I think you're talking me into an 11 con.

eonfreon
06-12-2009, 04:46 PM
Just remember that's with a lot of gear, so depends on what you got and what you want to get.

Without Raid Loot and with most easy stuff an 11 Con will get you 350+ or so at level 16 as long as you drink a rage pot and get Toughness enhancements unlocked. Getting to 400 at Level 16 with an 11 Con can take a lot of work.

And a 13 Con will get you 370-380+ off the top of my head- the numbers are there for you to rework narrow down if you want, I'm not actually the best at number crunching- lots of paper and pencils ;) to reach my figures.

Vorn
06-12-2009, 04:48 PM
Just a quick note--I have an existential stalemate shroud item geared into each of my pally's in order to get the +6 wisdom, wiz vi, +150 spell points so the 8 starting wisdom doesn't bother them--well see if they get Mord. Disjunctioned what that will mean, but I rather imagine if that happens there will be more to worry about then wis and spell points.:p
:)

eonfreon
06-12-2009, 04:53 PM
Also remember I already have most of this gear set-up so I could afford to sacrifice Hit Points for basically convenience.

For me 16 or 20 HP < Gear set up and Convenience for my playstyle.

However, 16 or 20 extra Hit Points is nice too.

Return_To_Forever
06-12-2009, 05:04 PM
I feel like rog overall is a better dps option than mnk, mnk is only good if you think you need the feats, and I'm pretty sureyou don't, as I have a 2rog/14 pal, and the onlything I don'thave is ext, and don't really mind, I may get it, or somethign else w/ the new mod. Haste boost and sneak attack and insane umd are better than feats you don't need, imo.

eonfreon
06-12-2009, 05:05 PM
BTW, if you do go with Rogue I do highly recommend UMD, high Charisma will get you nice UMD.
Then maybe Jump and Balance of course.
If you can fit it in and know how to use it, Intimidate can also be useful at times.

One thing though.
Pally/Monk does indeed get some benefit to AC if done right, even str based and with the extra Feats makes DPS easier, because you must find some way to squeeze in PA.
If you don't care about UMD and Intimidate then I think Monk splash might be better.

I have tried both. I eventually preferred my Pally/Rogue and deleted my Pally/Monk when I ran out of space and wanted to try something new.

So, if this is a character you really want to try to gear up and keep around I suggest Pally/Rogue and stats:
15, 15, 13, 11, 8, 15.

Let me know what you think.

Return_To_Forever
06-12-2009, 05:06 PM
I also agree that 8 wis is fine, your goin to ext stale an item, and be just fine, i would much rather have the hp.

Comfortably
06-12-2009, 05:14 PM
I feel like rog overall is a better dps option than mnk, mnk is only good if you think you need the feats, and I'm pretty sureyou don't, as I have a 2rog/14 pal, and the onlything I don'thave is ext, and don't really mind, I may get it, or somethign else w/ the new mod. Haste boost and sneak attack and insane umd are better than feats you don't need, imo.

I'd further this statement. UMD and SA dmg>>>>2 feats.

Tharlak
06-12-2009, 05:31 PM
I have tried both. I eventually preferred my Pally/Rogue and deleted my Pally/Monk when I ran out of space and wanted to try something new.

So, if this is a character you really want to try to gear up and keep around I suggest Pally/Rogue and stats:
15, 15, 13, 11, 8, 15.

Let me know what you think.

This is where I'm ending up.

Will go Rogue splash focusing on UMD

Thanks all for helping me sort this out.

mzprox
07-07-2009, 04:38 AM
I had the same dilemma, rogue<->monk, now I'm thinking why dont take both

Final build either:
1 rogue/2 monk/17 pally

or

3 rogue/2 monk/15 pally (I think this is better, not miss much more pally stuff, but gets +1d6 sa, +1 sa attack enh., rog dex enh. and more skills )

Both has lvl 4 spells however its very likely that there will be a nice lvl 18 pally enhancement which these builds would miss.

Suggested stats for a drow:
14/16/10/11/13/16
(I know.. only 10 con.. but every other stat is just more important, i would rather have one more AC than 20 more hp and higher charisma makes lay on hands more stronger, + to improtant skills and will allow divine might III with only a +2 tome)

baddax
07-07-2009, 07:36 AM
I feel like rog overall is a better dps option than mnk, mnk is only good if you think you need the feats, and I'm pretty sureyou don't, as I have a 2rog/14 pal, and the onlything I don'thave is ext, and don't really mind, I may get it, or somethign else w/ the new mod. Haste boost and sneak attack and insane umd are better than feats you don't need, imo.

it depends on the feats.
a 10 con will definitely put you on the low side of hp unless you plan on taking toughness. Otherwise I would suggest a 14 con.

baddax
07-07-2009, 07:38 AM
I had the same dilemma, rogue<->monk, now I'm thinking why dont take both

Final build either:
1 rogue/2 monk/17 pally

or

3 rogue/2 monk/15 pally (I think this is better, not miss much more pally stuff, but gets +1d6 sa, +1 sa attack enh., rog dex enh. and more skills )

Both has lvl 4 spells however its very likely that there will be a nice lvl 18 pally enhancement which these builds would miss.

Suggested stats for a drow:
14/16/10/11/13/16
(I know.. only 10 con.. but every other stat is just more important, i would rather have one more AC than 20 more hp and higher charisma makes lay on hands more stronger, + to improtant skills and will allow divine might III with only a +2 tome)

This is a bad idea imo as you will miss out on your 3rd tier Pre IMO.

mzprox
07-07-2009, 07:47 AM
This is a bad idea imo as you will miss out on your 3rd tier Pre IMO.

It's a trade off. While i dont know what the tier 3 prestige enh. will give, i know that 3 rogue or 2 monk gives much. I wouldnt miss the monk wisdom to AC bonus, extra feats or the rogue sneak attacks, umd/intimadate skills.

Valezra
07-07-2009, 09:40 AM
I'd further this statement. UMD and SA dmg>>>>2 feats.

Agreed w/ that Forever dude and Comf. I'd recommend these starting stats though:

Str: 16
Dex: 15
Con: 11
Int: 9
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

At level 20 you can have:

Str: 30 (16 + 3 Tome +4 Levels + 6 Item +1 Human Enhancement)
Dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Rogue Enhancement + 6 Item)
Con: 20 (11 + 1 Human Enhancement + 2 Tome + 6 Item)
Int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome at level 1... do it now before mod 9 and they are cheap)
Wis: 16 (8 + 6 Item + 2 Tome)
Cha: 28 (16 + 3 Tome + 1 Level + 2 Enhancements + 6 Item)


Justification for recommended stats:

Str - 30 for optimal non-ftr Strength.
Dex - 24 is a sweet spot for Mithril Light Armor Dex bonus.
Con - 20 will be plenty of hitpoints for a DPS paladin.
Int - 10 gets you Max UMD and still put a half point in Balance for every Paladin Level.
Wis: 16 will cast all Paladin spells.
Cha: Base 20 gets you Divine Might IV. 28 gets more Turn Attempts for DM and better saves. (Until you get a +3 tome a +1 tome will net you DM III which is very respectable)

+2 Tomes are easy to get. +3's will be easier to get in Mod 9 but even without them the build is still solid with +1 tomes in those slots.

Feats (not in any specific order):
1- Toughness
3- TWF
6- Khopesh
9- ITWF
12- GTWF
15- Improved Crit: Slashing (Drop this for Extend if you're going to make Min II's)
18- Power Attack

Hope that helps.

Val

Tharlak
07-07-2009, 09:59 AM
I’ve played Human Paladin/Rogue’s so here are my suggestions:

If you go down the Human Pally/Rogue route:
Str: 15 +1 Race + 3 level = 19 + 1 Tome = 20
Dex: 15 + 1 Tome +1 level = 17
Con: 13 + 1 Racial = 14 + 10 points from Human Toughness III
Int: 11 + 1 Tome for extra skills which will allow you to have a couple of scattered skills and a very nice UMD score (UMD is based on CHA so yeah- this could allow you to seriously cast Heal scrolls and Raise Deads with little to no fail- kind of nice if you work at it)
or
+2 for Combat Expertise (completely unnecessary, but keeps you within “AC-Relevance” Potential should you ever feel like grinding for it) until a +2 Tome falls in your lap, don’t worry about it.
Wis. 8 +1 Tome +items to cast
Cha 15 + 1 Tome = 16 = instant access to Divine Might I – which is very nice.


I went with the above recommendation (choosing a bit lower wisdom and a 13, slight change from original suggestion). Some of my choices have been based on having access to +1 tomes, but for the LIFE OF ME, I can not get a +2 tome (can't afford to pay for it either). Have a couple of capped chars, but NO +2 tomes other favor rewards and bound +3's from raids.

At any rate...

Only level 6, but enjoying the character. Mostly swinging a greataxe or S&B with khopesh, has good dps and great survivability.

Thrudh
07-07-2009, 10:00 AM
It's a trade off. While i dont know what the tier 3 prestige enh. will give, i know that 3 rogue or 2 monk gives much. I wouldnt miss the monk wisdom to AC bonus, extra feats or the rogue sneak attacks, umd/intimadate skills.


http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Lamannia_Update_9.0_Official

There are 3 different paladin Prestige Enhancements. Here's comparing one of them

12 levels of paladin get you this...

Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Prerequisites: Paladin 12, Paladin Knight of the Chalice I, Paladin Courage of Good II, Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you have +2 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 2d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +3 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.
Knight of the Chalice Censure Demons
Benefit: You may expend a turn undead attempt to stun a targetted demon or other Chaotic Evil outsider. A successful Will save DC: 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Modifier negates this effect. The target gains repeated saves to break free of this effect.

18th level of paladin gets you this

Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Prerequisites: Paladin 18, Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, any Paladin Faith II enhancement
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are devoted to fighting demons and other evil outsiders, driving them from Eberron forever. Your maximum number of Smites is increased by one, your anti-fear aura is improved, and you have +4 to attack Evil Outsiders and deal 4d6 additional damage with melee and unarmed attacks against them. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by Evil Outsiders.

So, by not going level 18 paladin, you'd lose an extra smite, and a +1 to hit and 2d6 damage and +1 saves against evil outsiders...

2d6 extra damage is pretty sweet.. but you can compare that to what you'd get splashing monk AND rogue and decide which way to go...

baddax
07-07-2009, 11:30 AM
It's a trade off. While i dont know what the tier 3 prestige enh. will give, i know that 3 rogue or 2 monk gives much. I wouldnt miss the monk wisdom to AC bonus, extra feats or the rogue sneak attacks, umd/intimadate skills.


i believe they are listed in the release notes smoewhere.

Tharlak
08-09-2009, 08:48 AM
My Evasion Pali is just shy of 12th. A bunch of fun to play. I do have a question regarding my 12th level feat. Should it be GTWF or IC Slash.

From another thread Scribbler posted:


Exactly when you have a problem depends on your build.
Ranger: ITWF at lev 6 and GTWF at lev 11, so the problem is limited to levels 5 and 10.
Barb/Paladin: ITWF at lev 6 and GTWF at lev 12, so the problem is at levels 5, 10, and 11.
Fvs/Cleric/Monk: ITWF at lev 9 and GTWF at lev 15, so the problem is levels (5), (6), 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14.

This relates to the combat animation and number of swings. Longer animations without the max number of swings drops your DPS.

What would serve me best at 12th. Take GTWF to optimize the swings for my animation, or take IC Slash (with dual Kopesh) to optimize my per swing damage. My original plan was IC.

baddax
08-09-2009, 10:49 AM
IMO improved Crit slash before Gtwf.
I think there is a bigger bang for the buck.

flubuk73
08-10-2009, 01:21 PM
I went (or am going) 18pally2rogue on my progue drow focusing on UMD/evasion/twf.

Granted I'm only level 7 but BOY is it a laugh, VERY soloable with 2xRapier(+3)

sorry to sabotage, but my tohit is quite nice (13 or so from memory) should i consider dropping the +3 rapier and perhaps picking up a "pure good" or similar? if not, at which stage does the loss of raw +hit for more dps become viable?

thanks

baddax
08-10-2009, 07:15 PM
I went (or am going) 18pally2rogue on my progue drow focusing on UMD/evasion/twf.

Granted I'm only level 7 but BOY is it a laugh, VERY soloable with 2xRapier(+3)

sorry to sabotage, but my tohit is quite nice (13 or so from memory) should i consider dropping the +3 rapier and perhaps picking up a "pure good" or similar? if not, at which stage does the loss of raw +hit for more dps become viable?

thanks

This is not an easy question as you run into monster immunities,DR and such. The simple answer is 1-6 pure good is = 3.5 damage. So i believe a +1 pure good will do the same dps as a +4 weapon (same type).

Where it gets tricky is when you add in DR, immunities and resistances. In which case you have to know which weapon works best on each mob.

Tharlak
08-10-2009, 07:31 PM
IMO improved Crit slash before Gtwf.
I think there is a bigger bang for the buck.

Went with IC, it was my original build plan. The GTWF was distracting. But those crits are fun!

Thanks for the feedback.

baddax
08-10-2009, 09:08 PM
glad to be of help.