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MysticRhythms
06-11-2009, 04:37 PM
So I have a two-handed WF Fighter that was always intended to stay pure. Now with hte advent of the Warforged enhancements for THF and the Kensai Prestige Enhancement coming in Mod 9, I'm thinking of going that route. Kensai gives you a lot of options for other means of branching out. It gives bonuses to Intimidate if you want to go that route or strategic feats (which synergizes well with Warforged).

It's the Strategy feats and damage potential that I wanted to focus on. That means I have to drop (or reduce) one of the following ideas: Maxxing Intimidate with feats, Getting more Toughness hit points, building a decent debuffed DR.

Here's the core of the build which I don't see changing (unless I'm convinced that it's spreading too thin)

Chaotic Good Warforged Fighter 16 (eventually Fighter 20)
Starting build points:
Strength 16 (10pts)
Dexterity 14 (6pts)
Constitution 18 (10pts)
Intelligence 14 (6pts)
Wisdom 8 (0pts)
Charisma 6 (0pts)

If I were to reroll, I'd consider moving points out of Dexterity and Intelligence into Strength and/or Charisma and dealing with the prereq for Combat Expertise with a tome.

Total feats:
General: 7
Fighter: 11
Total: 18

Feats that cannot change (needed for Kensai):
1) Weapon Focus(Slashing)
2) Weapon Specialization(Slashing)
3) Greater Weapon Focus(Slashing)
4) Greater Weapon Specialization(Slashing)
5) Superior Weapon Focus(Slashing)

Feats that work well with Kensai/Warforged:
6) Power Attack
7) Cleave
8) Great Cleave
(essentially run into group, Intimidate, Cleave, Great Cleave and Kensai/WF THF enhancements to trigger weapon effects more often)
9) Improved Critical (Slashing)
10) Two-Handed Fighting
11) Improved Two-HandedFighting
12) Greater Two-Handed Fighting

Feats I'd like to keep for the Tactics idea:
13) Combat Expertise (needed for Improved Trip)
14) Improved Trip
15) Stunning Blow

That leaves me 3 feats left out of the five below. Current front-runners are:
a) Adamantine Body (I have this now but can retrain)
b) Toughness (the popular choice, but might not fit it in here)
c) Skill Focus(Intimidate)
d) Bullheaded
e) Quick Draw (for swapping from tactics weapons to DPS to S/B)

Before I discuss the feats some more, I want to discuss enhancements

For 20 levels, we get 80 AP and this is how they break down for me now:

Need the following for Kensai:
1) Fighter Attack Boost IV (10AP)
2) Fighter Critical Accuracy IV (10AP)
3) Fighter Kensai III (8AP)
4) Weapon Specialization II (3AP)
5) Kensai Weapon Mastery III (3AP)
Total spent: 34

I see no point in NOT taking the following:
1) Fighter Weapon Alacrity Capstone (2AP)
2) Fighter Strength III (12AP)
3) Warforged Power Attack III (6AP)
4) Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III (6AP)
5) Haste Boost I (1AP)
6) Warforged Constitution I (2AP) (gets me an even Con with a +1 tome)
7) Warforged Tactics II (6AP)
8) Fighter Strategy(Stun) II (3AP)
9) Fighter Strategy(Trip) II (3AP)
Total spent: 75

That gives me 5 points left over to buy any of the following:
Toughness I-II (1-3AP)
Damage Reduction I (2AP)
Intimidate I-II (1-3AP)
Healer's Friend I (2AP)
Construct Thinking I-II (3AP)

I'm currently leaning toward dropping Adamantine Body and goign with:
Toughness
Skill Focus(Intimidate)
Bullheaded

as my feats

with:

Intimidate II (3AP)
Healer's Friend I (2AP)

as my last feat/enhancement choices.

That would give me an Intimidate of:
23 Ranks
02 Untyped (Fighter Intimidate II)
03 Untyped (Kensai III)
03 Feat (Skill Focus:Intimidate)
02 Feat (Bullheaded)
02 Stat (Charisma 12 with a +6 Charisma item)
04 Morale (Greater Heroism)
02 Luck (Head of Good Fortune)
15 Competence (+15 Intimidate Item)
06 Untyped (Shroud Charisma Skill item)

62, not counting any short-term buffs like Bardsong or any other items that may come along (58 at level 16 with only 19 ranks)

Enhanced Statistics:
Strength 16 + 4 levels + 6 enhancement + 2 inherent + 3 Fighter Strength III = 31 (+10) (32 at 20)
Constitution 18 + 6 enhancement + 1 inherent + 1 WF Con I = 26 (+8)

Hit points with existing model:
020 - Heroic Durability
160 - 16 levels of Fighter
128 - Constitution 26
020 - Minos Legens (Mod 9)
030 - Greater False Life
010 - Argonnessen Favor
018 - Toughness Feat (level 16)
045 - Shroud Item
431 without temporary buffs

Attack/Damage with Favored Weapon (I'm probably going Greatsword instead of Greataxe):
16 - Base Attack Bonus
10 - Strength
01 - Weapon Focus
01 - Greater Weapon Focus
01 - Superior Weapon Focus
03 - Kensai Weapon Specialty III
05 - Enhancement bonus from weapon
01 - Haste
04 - Morale from Greater Heroism
01 - Rage spell
02 - Luck bonus possible
01 - Exceptional Strength item
01 - Competence (various armors)

That's up to +47 to hit not counting a decent bardsong or any temporary Kensai bonuses, attack boost or flanking. This is with Power Attack off, so turning it on means +39 to hit.

Damage:
15 - Strength (2-handed)
16 - Power Attack
02 - Weapon Specialization feat
02 - Greater Weapon Specialization feat
02 - Weapon specialization enhancement II
06 - Kensai weapon specialty III
05 - Weapon enhancement

2d6+48 + weapon damage effects, not counting critical enhancement multipliers from Kensai or any temporary bonuses like Bardsong.

AC is probably not woth mentioning since I have only Combat Expertise and usually go Two-Handed and have no real Dex if I dump Adamantine Body. Otherwise, it's likely in the 50s with the right gear.

I considered building AC, but it's difficult - I play casually. I will have a Strength +2 Tome and can only count on a Con +1 Tome.

Another option is to skip the Intimidate altogether and maybe drop Cleave and/or Great Cleave and build more Toughness and use the Warforged Brute Fighting enhancement line to be my "Intimidate." This throws away some of the bonuses of the Kensai enhancement but lets me get maybe 1 more DC on my strategy feats and more hit points.

I'm also considering dumping Toughness (since I don't use the enhancements) and taking Quick Draw.

My fear with the offensive Kensai build is that with crappy AC, the hit points may not be enough. I can hope to find some good DR via Docents and other gear and do the "best possible" I can with AC. I do have Combat Expertise in the build and can put on a Tower SHield and hopefully find some DR against things that I can't Stun/Trip. Another option is to take more of the Warforged DR since Stoneskin and the like will wear off.

Yet another option is to dump ONE of the strategies (like Trip) and focus only on the other. I do liek the versatility of using Trip or Stun as some things may be immune to Stun.

I'd appreciate feedback.

Which way would you lean? SHould I reroll and dump the Intelligence altogether and forget Improved Trip and get more Strength and Charisma?

hu-flung-pu
06-11-2009, 04:52 PM
No need to reroll just respec your enhancements. I don't think you'll have the STR to trip reliably even with kensai powersurge, so I'd probably get rid of improved trip and take bullheaded. +1 to will and +2 towards intimidate will be more useful then you think over +4 to trip that doesn't work with enhancements.

You've got a solid kensai.

maddmatt70
06-11-2009, 04:55 PM
I have several questions:
1. Do you have access to tomes? I am not sure you need a 14 starting int. I would drop this at least to 12 and use a +1 int tome, but preferrably to 11 and use a +2 int tome at level 2. With 3 more build points you could upgrade str to 17. Your current build is sufficient but could of course be improved upon its up to you the player what you want to do.

2. Feats: I like the toughness feat because the racial toughness 1 and fighter toughness 1 are a good bang for your buck for 10 hp for 1 action point each. I would try to fit those in. 40 hp for 1 feat and 2 action points is worthwhile in my opinion especially for a fighter. Quickdraw I have never been a fan of especially for a two handed fighting melee.

Regarding tactics I understand the nice aspect of the improved trip feat reducing the trip timer cooldown significantly, but do you really want both stunning blow and trip. You could go with one or the other just a thought.

A big question will be how many intimidate feats and enhancements do you need to meet the intimidate threshold that you want to meet for this build. Do you need to have your intimidate at all? Some servers, guilds, and players love intimidate and use it frequently while others do not just a thought?

3. Enhancements: The two that stand out to me is only fighter haste boost 1 and 0 toughness enhancements. I would upgrade fighter haste boost to 2 or 3 and for sure pick up fighter and racial toughness 1. I would most definitely have healer's friend 1 this to me should go into the certain enhancement area.

MysticRhythms
06-11-2009, 05:18 PM
No need to reroll just respec your enhancements. I don't think you'll have the STR to trip reliably even with kensai powersurge

Really?

Warforged Tactics II adds +2 to both
Fighter Stunning adds +2 to Stun
Fighter Trip adds +2 to Trip
Kensai III adds +3 to both

Strength of 32 in endgame = +11
Base 10 +10 for weapon = +20

That's 38 to Stun DC and 42 to Trip DC without any short-term buffs like Rage spell or Kensai strength boost. I can also push it by going for a Strength Tome +3 or maybe even +4 and I haven't figured in Exceptional Strength from a Shroud item or Madstone Rage. What do Trip and Stun DCs need to be to be effective?


so I'd probably get rid of improved trip and take bullheaded. +1 to will and +2 towards intimidate will be more useful then you think over +4 to trip that doesn't work with enhancements.

Currently the plan is to have both ... so if I dropped Improve Trip would you just take more Toughness then?

MysticRhythms
06-11-2009, 05:27 PM
I have several questions:
1. Do you have access to tomes? I am not sure you need a 14 starting int. I would drop this at least to 12 and use a +1 int tome, but preferrably to 11 and use a +2 int tome at level 2. With 3 more build points you could upgrade str to 17. Your current build is sufficient but could of course be improved upon its up to you the player what you want to do.
I can buy a tome on the AH if needed to accomplish that. I'd have to reroll, but I don't have any raid gear or bound items I'm really tied to yet. The attraction of this suggestion is that it could get me the same strength at endgame, but save me 6AP's to buy something other than Fighter's Strength III.


2. Feats: I like the toughness feat because the racial toughness 1 and fighter toughness 1 are a good bang for your buck for 10 hp for 1 action point each. I would try to fit those in. 40 hp for 1 feat and 2 action points is worthwhile in my opinion especially for a fighter. Quickdraw I have never been a fan of especially for a two handed fighting melee.
The reasoning behind Quickdraw is if I intend to stay with Stunning Blow and Improved Trip, there is no weapon in the game that has Weighted AND Vertigo, so I might have to switch in combat. It was just a thought to keep with the offensive theme. I do see the value in keeping Toughness instead, I just wanted to hear peoples' thoughts. I haven't done enough testing with Quickdraw yet.


Regarding tactics I understand the nice aspect of the improved trip feat reducing the trip timer cooldown significantly, but do you really want both stunning blow and trip. You could go with one or the other just a thought.
That's one of the thoughts I mentioned. The impetus to do both is that Warforged and Kensai have enhancements that add to all strategy feats, so it made more sense to me to be good at two instead of 2 DC higher at only one. The downside is that it costs two-three feats to have Trip and Stun.


A big question will be how many intimidate feats and enhancements do you need to meet the intimidate threshold that you want to meet for this build. Do you need to have your intimidate at all? Some servers, guilds, and players love intimidate and use it frequently while others do not just a thought?
Right now, I use Intimidate offensively. It brings enemies in closer to make Cleave and Great Cleave do more damage. So I guess the initial answer is "enough for trash mobs to come toward me." I started the thought of boosting it as high as I could to see if I could hit levels that are at least passably useful in some endgame content. I'm wondering if 58 is decent enough at level 16. But the downside is that I have no super AC to be an "Intimitank." I'd have to rely on items for DR. This is one of the things I was wondering. I could dump the two feats and abandon the specialization in Intimidate and sitll use it on trash and then maybe spend more feats on offense or more Toughness. This is where I'mn looking for advice. What's more useful? Toughness two more times or ... five more points of Intimidate?


3. Enhancements: The two that stand out to me is only fighter haste boost 1 and 0 toughness enhancements. I would upgrade fighter haste boost to 2 or 3 and for sure pick up fighter and racial toughness 1. I would most definitely have healer's friend 1 this to me should go into the certain enhancement area.
The reasoning behind Healer's Friend not being automatic is that at higher levels, people use Heal (and eventually Mass Heal) and warforged get full benefit from those. I had to find points to cut somewhere. I considered lowering Power Attack III to Power Attack II, but this guy will have one of the best to-hits in the game, so I'd rather leverage that into more damage.

Haste Boost II only gives a 5% speed boost over Haste Boost I and I'll have 8 Haste Boosts to use thanks to Kensai. I could see buying it up to II, but it's hard to move the points around, unless I drop Intimidate. Then I'd likely get Healer's Friend I, Toughness I and Haste Boost II.

It's hard to determine what to spend those last 5 points on. I wish I had 7-8 left over, but Kensai is such an AP-hungry Prestige.

maddmatt70
06-11-2009, 07:57 PM
At end game you want healer's friend 1. Really it is an essential enhancement. 15% more healing at end game would save your bacon in so many places - the shroud on parts 4 and 5 for mass cures for instance. Mass Heal currently has a really slow casting time (the summon monster casting time) and is in effect not a pracitical spell - I do not know if this is a bug or not so we will see.

To answer your DR vs. AC questions right now yes DR is sufficient for many places since you are a wf. In VOD on normal, hard, or elite just throw on your docent of defiance and tank Sulu. Just two days ago a guildy of mine did this very thing in VOD elite on sulu. Will this be the case for major quests next mod? Really impossible to say.

Shroonith
06-12-2009, 04:13 AM
why youd start with anything less than 18 str for a THF pure FTR is beyond me.

my recommendation:
str18+5lvl
dex8
con17
int10+2tome
wis6
cha12

feats: 11 ftr 7 normal
WS,WF, GWF, GWS, SWF: bludgeon (5)
improved crit: bludgeon
stunning blow
GTHF (3)
power attack

Adamantine body
toughness
sf:UMD
force of personality
^bullheaded
^sf:intim
^****(free feat, possibly saving throw like luck of heroes or lightning reflexes)****

^:Alternatively you could use these 3 for spring attack [requires 11 starting dex +2tome and 15 starting con] , or multiple improved DR feats

Ignore even trying a passable AC on this character, thats spreading your char too thin. Get yourself a shield with some nice DR when turtle-ing. Your defense will be tactics like trip and stunning blow and the greater range of your 2-hander.
Kensai's selected weapon will be the Maul, but dont be afraid to use warhammer/shield.

As a player with 39 DC on my stunning blow at the moment, I can tell you it gets resisted quite a bit. If you are not using bludgeoning weapons, you will not be getting the 'weighted' bonus and you will not hit the high 40s low 50s DC next mod.

skills: 3/lvl + 8 @ start
some Jump and balance
UMD (maxed)
Intim (maxed)
tumble (1 rank)

Gear (next mod):
weapon: +5ele-burst of weighted 5% for trash. +5alignment-burst [respective metal] of greater bane for bosses.
trinket: litany of the dead / HoGF
goggles:mentaus or tharnes
helm:+15intim
neck:+6con / cartouche
bracers:leviks (+6str, 20% healin amp)
boots: madstone
ring:+6cha
ring:[utility spot, FF, Clickies, etc.]
gloves:spectral / 7fingered
belt:electric haze or shroud Min II HP item
cloak:Shroud Airx3 +6cha skill
docent: DT[+5 resist / +1exceptional STR / Random Sovereign Guard]

MysticRhythms
06-12-2009, 09:22 AM
why youd start with anything less than 18 str for a THF pure FTR is beyond me.
I didn't make this clear in my OP, but this character was made way before there was ever a hint of the Kensai Prestige enhancement. I wasn't sure what I would want at high levels, so I gave myself a bid of breadth in case I might have wanted to go with Two-Weapon Fighting or use Combat Expertise. The stat line I displayed is the one that exists on my current charater who is level 14.

I'm not averse to re-rolling, but I'd like to talk about why it's necessary before dumping the existing character's time investment. Six build points is a lot to spend on raising Strength by 1 modifier on a character that might want Intelligence, Charisma and Constitution. I'm not saying no, but I'd have to hear a compelling argument. I can understand buying a 17 to save 6 Action Points later on Strength III.



feats: 11 ftr 7 normal
WS,WF, GWF, GWS, SWF: bludgeon (5)
improved crit: bludgeon
stunning blow
GTHF (3)
power attack

Adamantine body
toughness
sf:UMD
force of personality
^bullheaded
^sf:intim
^****(free feat, possibly saving throw like luck of heroes or lightning reflexes)****

^:Alternatively you could use these 3 for spring attack [requires 11 starting dex +2tome and 15 starting con] , or multiple improved DR feats

So you're advocating dumping Combat Expertise + Improved Trip. I can see that argument. I don't think I like the focus on Bludgeoning weapons though. I think that I'd prefer the greater threat range of the Greatsword to get a lot more effect out of Seeker and the Kensai damage crit enhancements (those enhancements favor weapons with broader crit ranges instead of high crit multipliers). I can still use Weighted bludgeoners to full effect without making them my "Kensai Weapon."


As a player with 39 DC on my stunning blow at the moment, I can tell you it gets resisted quite a bit.
I don't doubt your experience, but which enemies do you havethe hardest time stunning?


If you are not using bludgeoning weapons, you will not be getting the 'weighted' bonus and you will not hit the high 40s low 50s DC next mod.
I believe you still get the +3 to DC's for all strategies even if your specific Kensai weapon is not a bludgeoner. At least that's how it sounds when I read the Kensai enhancements.

I appreciate the feedback.

What about a 17 starting Strength? That still lets me get to:

17 Base
05 Levels
02 Fighter Strength II
02 Strength Tome
06 Enhancement
02 Exceptional
34 Strength without temporary buffs = +12 to hit and stun/trip

This way I can still take advantage of a +4 Tome and save 6 AP's and if I'm absolutely desperate to get one more point should +5 Tomes exist, I can always spend the 6AP's on it.

I can reduce Dexterity for the points and then recoup some more points from Intelligence into Charisma.

maddmatt70
06-12-2009, 12:15 PM
OP you could go with the following stat build if you wanted to reroll:
18 strength
13 dexterity
11 intelligence
17 constitution
6 wisdom
6 charisma

or even
18 strength
14 dexterity
11 intellgence
16 constitution
7 wisdom
6 charisma

I would probably make the second build if I were rolling up a thf fighter who liked to swap to shields a fair amount.

MysticRhythms
06-12-2009, 05:03 PM
OP you could go with the following stat build if you wanted to reroll:
18 strength
13 dexterity
11 intelligence
17 constitution
6 wisdom
6 charisma

or even
18 strength
14 dexterity
11 intellgence
16 constitution
7 wisdom
6 charisma

I would probably make the second build if I were rolling up a thf fighter who liked to swap to shields a fair amount.

Again I have to ask - why 18 Strength if 17 Strength gets you to the best "useful" score and saves 6AP's in endgame? Do you believe we'll get +5 tomes?

maddmatt70
06-12-2009, 05:15 PM
Again I have to ask - why 18 Strength if 17 Strength gets you to the best "useful" score and saves 6AP's in endgame? Do you believe we'll get +5 tomes?

+5 tomes or litany of the dead books (abbot raid)and other similar gear that will come in the future at some point. Who knows what the max strength for a fighter will be when the cap goes up? The other side of the coin is the other stats above a certain point do not really add that much. Con and dex for instance only add so much beyond 16 and 12.

MysticRhythms
06-12-2009, 05:38 PM
I'm thinking of the following stat array:

17 Strength (13)
8 Dexterity (0)
18 Constitution (10)
12 Intelligence (4)
6 Wisdom (0)
11 Charisma (5)

I can eat a +1 Intelligence Tome to get Combat Expertise and a +1 Charisma tome to get a respectable increase to Intimidate. It won't affect my current AC at all since a +6 Dex item gets me to my maximum usable Dexterity anyway and we've all said that AC doesn't matter.

It gives me 6 extra AP so I can get Fighter Toughness II and Warforged Toughness II while improving my Intimidate DC by a full 3 points and keeping Fighter Intimidate II and Healer's Friend I

Biggest sacrifice is Reflex save but I didn't have Evasion anyway.

maddmatt70
06-12-2009, 05:45 PM
I'm thinking of the following stat array:

17 Strength (13)
8 Dexterity (0)
18 Constitution (10)
12 Intelligence (4)
6 Wisdom (0)
11 Charisma (5)

I can eat a +1 Intelligence Tome to get Combat Expertise and a +1 Charisma tome to get a respectable increase to Intimidate. It won't affect my current AC at all since a +6 Dex item gets me to my maximum usable Dexterity anyway and we've all said that AC doesn't matter.

It gives me 6 extra AP so I can get Fighter Toughness II and Warforged Toughness II while improving my Intimidate DC by a full 3 points and keeping Fighter Intimidate II and Healer's Friend I

Biggest sacrifice is Reflex save but I didn't have Evasion anyway.

Not bad. Dex as a dump stat on a wf is not a bad idea with the docent of defiance. You should put ranks into umd as well with the semi decent cha and int you have. I still would prefer an 18 str 17 con over a 17 str 18 con myself of course you would have to take another point away from somewhere else, but to each his/her own. It sounds like you are definitely rerolling then. Have fun with your build.

FluffyCalico
06-13-2009, 07:32 AM
The reasoning behind Healer's Friend not being automatic is that at higher levels, people use Heal (and eventually Mass Heal)
.

negative on the mass heal. Read cleric forms for details lol

MysticRhythms
06-15-2009, 10:32 AM
negative on the mass heal. Read cleric forms for details lol

I imagine that will be something that gets fixed. If it doesn't, I'll have to reevaluate and see where I can scrounge up 2 more points.

MysticRhythms
06-15-2009, 10:34 AM
Not bad. Dex as a dump stat on a wf is not a bad idea with the docent of defiance. You should put ranks into umd as well with the semi decent cha and int you have. I still would prefer an 18 str 17 con over a 17 str 18 con myself of course you would have to take another point away from somewhere else, but to each his/her own. It sounds like you are definitely rerolling then. Have fun with your build.

I'm still not sure I'm "definitely rerolling." I don't know if I can affor ranks into UMD. Only three skill points - I prefer having good Balance and Jump over what I would say would be "wasted" UMD points. I understand the value of being able to equip race-restricted items, but I don't think that's worth the cost.