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Feylina
06-11-2009, 12:30 AM
Level requrements on wands need to be implemented. And only levels of a class that are able to use said wands.

example

Can a lvl 5 fighter use a cure serious wounds wand? No.

Can a lvl 1 ranger / bard / cleric / paladin use cure serious wands? No.

then why can a level 4 fighter with 1 level splash of these other classes use these wands?

look at scrolls and higher level wands. there are min level class requirements on stuff like heal scrolls or greater heroism. you don't see people splashing 1 level of wizard on a lvl 11 toon and casting greater heroism scrolls do you? (leave UMD out of this :P)

MrCow
06-11-2009, 12:38 AM
Can a lvl 5 fighter use a cure serious wounds wand? No.

Can a lvl 1 ranger / bard / cleric / paladin use cure serious wands? No.

then why can a level 4 fighter with 1 level splash of these other classes use these wands?

The reason is because it is the pen and paper rules:


Wands - Activation

Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.


Spell Trigger

Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Feylina
06-11-2009, 01:25 AM
No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know...

you underline the next sentance in the rules yet i believe that this sentance backs my argument.

we already know that a 5th level fighter is not an appropriate character in regards to using wands. he can't do it.

same with a class that is not an appropriate level for the item itself. ie a 4th level ranger can't use csw wands but he can at level 5.

same with scrolls. a 4th level cleric can't cast raise dead scrolls. although he will eventually. and he may even use them even though he doesn't have the spell.

to me this is a case of the class having the ability to use sed item from it's training. thus a ranger may use csw wands without being able to cast csw. the ranger class has that aptitude at certain levels to use these wands as part of the classes innate abilities.

however, it still doesn't wash to me that someone can splash 1 level of a class into a higher level toon and gain the benefit of wand use. when that class by itself at that level does not have the aptitude for said wands.

obviously the wands / scrolls are linked to the class or else every class at a certain level would be able to use them. as this is not the case we can only assume that certain classes through level progression gain certain aptitude towards magical items in line with the training or path that class recieves.

Nothing in the rules you have shown me convinces me otherwise that a non casting class splashed with 1 level of a casting class gains the use of wands or abilities not of appropriate level to coincide with the training the casting class would have recieved.

Ozgillioth
06-11-2009, 01:32 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure that in the PnP rules, anyone can use a wand or scroll if they have a high enough UMD skill...the DC is something like 10 + Spell level of item or something like that (I don't remember for sure and don't have the books with me at work so I can't quote it or anything).

MrCow
06-11-2009, 01:36 AM
ie a 4th level ranger can't use csw wands but he can at level 5.

You can thank Turbine for that, actually. They house-ruled minimum level requirements to use wands or scrolls. If this were pen and paper then a level 1 ranger could use that Cure Serious Wounds Wand at level 1, or a Sorcerer could use a Stoneskin Wand at level 1, or a Cleric could use a Raise Dead scroll at level 1 providing they passed a Caster Level Check (DC 10, in this instance).


you underline the next sentance in the rules yet i believe that this sentance backs my argument.

I am sorry, but "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell" does not really back up the argument of needing your class' levels to be high enough to use certain wands. Once you take a single level of a class the entire spell list of that class is a piece of your character.

Thorzian
06-11-2009, 01:38 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure that in the PnP rules, anyone can use a wand or scroll if they have a high enough UMD skill...the DC is something like 10 + Spell level of item or something like that (I don't remember for sure and don't have the books with me at work so I can't quote it or anything).

didnt the op say leave umd out of this? reading is fun

Feylina
06-11-2009, 01:47 AM
You can thank Turbine for that, actually. They house-ruled minimum level requirements to use wands or scrolls. If this were pen and paper then a level 1 ranger could use that Cure Serious Wounds Wand at level 1, or a Sorcerer could use a Stoneskin Wand at level 1, or a Cleric could use a Raise Dead scroll at level 1 providing they passed a Caster Level Check (DC 10, in this instance).


i agree that house rules is an acceptable excuse for why wands are the way they are.

thus my suggestion to change them. i would like to see a lot of changes to this game that keep people from splashing y / z to a class for utility.

in my mind a level 1 of any class is just that, level 1. and should behave appropriately as per pnp rules. now i know ddo is nowhere near pnp rules. however, it does make me vomit in my mouth a little when a 1 level splash of a class is so powerful:

monk = easy 5 to ac through wisdom whether you are balanced or not
rogue = able to disable every trap in the game
ranger / paladin / bard / sorc / wiz / cleric = wands wands wands :)
wizards - sp + shield spell + extend (this one makes sense at least although shield seems a little op)

that about it. bear in mind though i view these suggestion forums kinda like a stop sign. sure it's here but does anyone really pay attention to them?

MrCow
06-11-2009, 01:58 AM
If wands exceeded 4th level spells (aka, wand of raise dead, wand of heal, wand of greater heroism, wand of death pact, wand of cloudkill, etc.) then I would agree that more checks would need to be in place. However, a wand is just a step above potions (4th level spells allowed on wands, but not potions, some effects allowed on wands that wouldn't be on potions) and a step below scrolls (4th level spells are the cap on wands). Placing a check on wands that are similar to that of scrolls would just effectively change wands to scroll-on-a-stick, thus making them somewhat pointless to have in the great scheme of things as it would be closely duplicating something else.


however, it does make me vomit in my mouth a little when a 1 level splash of a class is so powerful

I agree that splashing can add a rather hefty amount of power. Sadly, here in DDO we don't have one of the larger checks to balance against this (EXP Penalty).