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View Full Version : The Acrane Assassin- A concept build. Some help required



cdemeritt
06-07-2009, 11:54 AM
Hello All,

I've been playing DDO now for about 1.5 years. I've capped a Sorc, Cleric, and Fighter, with a couple others well on their way to cap.My first Love has always been the Arcane. I never thought much about the Rogue, as growing up and playing PnP, they never seemed like too much fun. So my Rogue was a recent addition (well, not so recent, took a 7 month break after my rogue hit 12) But all in all, I've been very surprised and impressed by my Rogues power. I first started to solo quest with this toon, and to my surprise it wasn't difficult at all. As with many of you who have complained about waiting for a party for a specific quest, I don't much like waiting, sometimes days for a party to run Threnal or such. So with this Rogue, I started soloing many quests, and found other than the friendly banter of party chat, I enjoyed it much more. The only problem was the cost of healing. My rogue could use wands (1 lvl ranger) but the cost was causing me to go broke. That's when I started to think about a new toon, a self-healing toon. Not wanting a battle cleric (ok, I do plan on trying one someday), I noticed the total synergy of Wizard Rogue and WF- especially for solo play. So I built one. Evasion, Trap smithing, All the Power of the Arcane, and Blue bar self healing. What more could you want? A great solo build... The only problem is when on the rare occasions he wants to run with a group (I.E. Deliras for his Voice) In a slow paced group he does ok, but in a high speed zerg run, he can keep up and stay up, but is not much use otherwise. This is slowly changing as the arcane power increases (Just got PK and Firewall yesterday), however it got me thinking about a varient. instead of the 18/2 wiz/rogue, what if we went 12/7 rogue/wiz (last lvl to be determined) I love the Assassin rogue, a lot of fun to sneak into a room and kill everything with one hits, and 7 lvls of Wizard give Firewall and DDoor, as well as good self healing.

Currently my Wiz/rogue is lvl9, 7/2 and has just under 600 SP. With current Endgame Equipment I could easily see close to 950-1000 SP with just 7 Lvls Wiz. (more than enough for Self healing and buffing, as well as some AoE CC) I don't Expect that 7 Lvls wiz, would be enough Spell Pen or DC's High enough for end game PK's and things with saves, But Firewall, DDoor, Resists, Prots, Stoneskin, Blurr, Jump, Remove curse, Haste, Heroism, Rage and Summon Monsters. All good things to have.

I'm Thinking for this build, a TWF, with? weapons, strength build with the high INT for Assassinate DC as well as SP, but am having a hard time balancing the Stats to my liking. Insightful Reflexes will certainly help, and if I don't plan on much ranged (a mainstay of my solo builds, better to hit them while they can't hit you) then I won't need much DEX, But still not making the numbers balance out.
Also concerning me is BAB at High Levels, is this guy going to hit anything? I hate seeing "Miss" "Miss" "Miss" "Miss" You roll a 15 +20 "Miss" I know some of you are better at crunching the numbers than I, What do you think?
Oh yeah, the undetermined Lvl - This is also a question, Do I go Wiz for the Extra SP, and third 4th lvl and fourth 3rd lvl spell slots (BAB for 8 Lvl Wiz is increased from +3 to +4)
or do I go Rogue for the class feat (most likely cripple strike) and extra 1d6 sneak attack, but no BAB increase?

Any overall thoughts?

Noctus
06-08-2009, 08:42 AM
Your Assassinate DC is directly linked to the number of Rogue levels you have.

If you multiclass to deep into Wiz, it will sink too low to be reliable.



What are your base stats?

What feats did you take?

Aranticus
06-08-2009, 09:08 AM
what if we went 12/7 rogue/wiz (last lvl to be determined) I love the Assassin rogue, a lot of fun to sneak into a room and kill everything with one hits, and 7 lvls of Wizard give Firewall and DDoor, as well as good self healing.

sure you can get L7 wiz for a firewall, but at L20, how efficient would be a L7 firewall? on paper it sounds good but in practice, the deviation can be large. if you ever made such a build, my advice is the 7 levels are for buffs rather than offensive capabilities

I'm Thinking for this build, a TWF, with? weapons, strength build with the high INT for Assassinate DC as well as SP, but am having a hard time balancing the Stats to my liking. Insightful Reflexes will certainly help, and if I don't plan on much ranged (a mainstay of my solo builds, better to hit them while they can't hit you) then I won't need much DEX, But still not making the numbers balance out.

twf = 14 min dex (you need +3 tome for gtwf). this coupled with high str, high int would mean a difficult spread of stat (i came up with 16/14/16/16/6/6)

Also concerning me is BAB at High Levels, is this guy going to hit anything? I hate seeing "Miss" "Miss" "Miss" "Miss" You roll a 15 +20 "Miss" I know some of you are better at crunching the numbers than I, What do you think?

a 9rog/7wiz has a BAB of 10. assuming level up points in str and base 16 str, you can get to 28 str = +9 attack. with GH and a +5 weapon, thats a total of 10+9+4+5 = 28. this is hardly enough for high end quests if you want to melee. what you could do is to actually load up on divine power clickies to boost BAB to 16 to give a 36. this will put you at a good stead. hitting should not be a problem once you count in your sneak attack bonuses. that said, your assassinate will. assuming 16 base int, tome and enhancements add 4 more and item 6 more, you hit 26 int for +8. your DC will be 10+9+8= 27. my current rog is at 10+12+6 = 28 DC and misses quite a few assassinates, especially on high con mobs

Oh yeah, the undetermined Lvl - This is also a question, Do I go Wiz for the Extra SP, and third 4th lvl and fourth 3rd lvl spell slots (BAB for 8 Lvl Wiz is increased from +3 to +4)
or do I go Rogue for the class feat (most likely cripple strike) and extra 1d6 sneak attack, but no BAB increase?

Any overall thoughts?

rog = more dc, SA and feat, wiz = more spells, higher spell damage, more sp and 1 more BAB. i'd go with rog

babakhan21
06-08-2009, 09:18 AM
Your Assassinate DC is directly linked to the number of Rogue levels you have.

If you multiclass to deep into Wiz, it will sink too low to be reliable.



What are your base stats?

What feats did you take?


assassinate is dc 10 + rogue level + int modifier. if you max out int it wont be so bad

Cyrion
06-08-2009, 09:45 AM
I currently have that build in play. My plan is 13th rogue/ 7 wizard. I am currently at 13th rogue/3 wizard. After mod 9 hits I will level up the rest in Wizard. I think it is a very functional build for both solo and group play. I can self buff, giving me shield spell, blur, resistance by wands, ER for greater speed, invisibility, etc.

Once I hit my max level I will have stoneskin(use wands now), haste, fw,pk...etc.

I have a very high umd and can use cs wands or raise dead scrolls. Right now my check roll is 31...level 20 looiking to be at 33-35 depending on gear.

base 10+13 from level +8 INT MOD

stats with items

str 18
dex 30
con 20
wis 10
int 27 can still use +2 tome and get 2 more pts from level-up
char 13

he is a twf halfing that is a ball of fire. I love playing him and know you will also.

Wf is a great idea for self heal...but wand whipping is just as good.

cdemeritt
06-08-2009, 11:13 AM
rog = more dc, SA and feat, wiz = more spells, higher spell damage, more sp and 1 more BAB. i'd go with rog

OK, This is why I asked, I missed the part or Rogue Lvl = Assassin DC



assassinate is dc 10 + rogue level + int modifier. if you max out int it wont be so bad


That's what I thought. So a +8 int modifier will seriously offset the -7 rogue levels.


twf = 14 min dex (you need +3 tome for gtwf). this coupled with high str, high int would mean a difficult spread of stat (i came up with 16/14/16/16/6/6)

Yes... Saw that last night... my heart sank when I saw the min DEX for TWF.

Well these are the only numbers I could come up with if I want to TWF. Now if I skip that and go with THF instead, I could do 18/8/16/16/6/6 or make either Con/Int 18 and Str 16. With insightful reflexes, I wouldn't loose out on my reflex saves.

One last change possiblity... About the only reason I really wanted the 7 Lvls Wizard was the 4 lvl spells, and for the most part DDoor (if there was a DDoor clickie, or vendor scrolls, I'd be most happy. Remove curse would have been nice, but pots and wands are available. same with stoneskin..... So if I drop to only 5 lvls wizard.. I loose Some SP, but still should have enough for buffs and healing, and gain much more rogue power. Something to consider.

Impaqt
06-08-2009, 11:23 AM
OK, This is why I asked, I missed the part or Rogue Lvl = Assassin DC





That's what I thought. So a +8 int modifier will seriously offset the -7 rogue levels.

Only if your used to assassinating with a 10 INT. My assassin speced rogue had a 24 INT. I'm sure yours is much higher than a 10 INT.





Yes... Saw that last night... my heart sank when I saw the min DEX for TWF.

Well these are the only numbers I could come up with if I want to TWF. Now if I skip that and go with THF instead, I could do 18/8/16/16/6/6 or make either Con/Int 18 and Str 16. With insightful reflexes, I wouldn't loose out on my reflex saves.

One last change possiblity... About the only reason I really wanted the 7 Lvls Wizard was the 4 lvl spells, and for the most part DDoor (if there was a DDoor clickie, or vendor scrolls, I'd be most happy. Remove curse would have been nice, but pots and wands are available. same with stoneskin..... So if I drop to only 5 lvls wizard.. I loose Some SP, but still should have enough for buffs and healing, and gain much more rogue power. Something to consider.

Assassinate is a neat little ability for a rogue. Unfortunatly, it has very limited use. Especially if you dont have the DC to back it up. Going into Level 20 and Shavarath, the mobs saves are onbly getting higher.. So if ya think its questionable NOW if your assassinate is going to land, Whattitll the mobs have another 4.. 6.. or 8 DC....

AN Assasin caster isnt a real good idea unless you max INT. Look at Acrobat... Its way more benefitial end game.

QuintonReece
06-08-2009, 11:25 AM
OK, This is why I asked, I missed the part or Rogue Lvl = Assassin DC

That's what I thought. So a +8 int modifier will seriously offset the -7 rogue levels.



Offset? As in make up for?
If I am reading this correctly you are thinking the +8 will make up for having 7 less rogue levels. I would not call this ''offset''. I would call this 7 less DC than you could have. That is huge with higher end content. I think you'd get very few assassinates off. And, I think you'd be very disappointed in the build.

cdemeritt
06-08-2009, 12:52 PM
Well, After much number crunching and attempts to create this build, The best I can come up with is a 16/8/16/18/6/6 with a 15/5 Rogue/Wiz, and still get the feeling that it will be only a mediocre at best, Having sacrificed too many things I wanted/needed. I think this build will be tabled for a bit, maybe when +3 tomes become common on the AH, and +10 stat Items become available, I might look at it again. But even with the original concept, I acknowledge it would have been a tough build to get started.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-08-2009, 04:36 PM
You're going to make me build one of these. :)

Who cares about assasination?!
Glitterdust and swing away!
Rog13/Wiz7 sounds fun. Max Int, Insightful ref. UMD Divine Power scrolls.
Might want some feats to boost Glitterdust save DCs.

Edit: 10 chars per server, 5 servers.
Lots of room to experiment with a fun build.
If you want max assasination play a pure Rogue
If you want max Spell DC play a pure Wiz.
If you want a fun build to play around with, make your multi-classed guy.
Lots of char slots to do all three IMO.
(And I have two acounts :) )

Noctus
06-09-2009, 06:13 AM
That's what I thought. So a +8 int modifier will seriously offset the -7 rogue levels.

No, it wont.
Because you will still be behind. Every "normal" Assassin build also has a decent INT (14 - 16), and will equip a INT item when sneaking into kill position. And most propably also reading a INT tome for more skills and better assassinate.

A typical Drow Assassin at endgame will have:
16 base +2 eaten tome +6INT item when assassinating = INT mod of +7.
Other races will have 1 point less.

The only thing you can really "make up for" with are the two Wizard INT enhancments, which a normal Assassin build does not get. In total you can get +2 INT more than he can get. So you can actually only make up 1 pont of DC, while loosing 6 points of Assassinate DC to get the 6 wizard levels to unlock the enhancements.



You can play a Rogue with a deeper WIZ splash with no problems, if you know the tradeoffs.
The spells will only be good for buffs and non-DC-based debuffs (like Ray of Enfeeblement), --- CC will be very situational, damage you can deal with spells will be neglectable.
Also you Assassinate DC will suffer hard. So much that you wont be able to land it reliably on most mobs. 7 levels of Wizard effectively leave you with a 6 points lower DC on your Assassinate, compared to a pure rogue. Just ask any arcane caster what a 6 points lower DC on insta-kill effects means in-game.

CSFurious
06-09-2009, 06:18 AM
your build equals epic failure

assassin rogues can probably get away with 1 to 2 non-rogue levels without being gimpy

i have seen a build like this before make it to the GH and i will just describe it as the "piking of all pikers" build

you have made a level 8 wizard/8 rogue which cannot hack it once you get past level 10

Hafeal
06-09-2009, 07:19 AM
I like the idea ... why not go way of the mechanic instead though? That seems to have synergy for your build.

At end game most people do not hang around for your assassinate attempts anyway - especially in the raids. And, more importantly, it s not needed to be successful. It can have use soloing explorer areas or running quests but I don't think ofit as a "must have" v. "wow that is neat" feature.

drachine
06-25-2009, 05:42 PM
i have a level 16 on sarlona named Ruze Alligash, a drow 11th level rogue/5th level wizard. she is a strength build rogue and when the level cap raises she will be 13th level rogue/7th level wizard

Ruze carries the following spells usually:

1st Hypnotism, Jump, Shield, Tumble
2nd Blur, Glitterdust, Web
3rd Displacement, Haste

Her 4th level spells will probably be Fire Shield and Dimension Door (maybe Solid Fog but i have clickies)

She will have 30 strength with the level cap and have a 28 intelligence.

With the level increase she will have greater two weapon fighting, improved critical: piercing, weapon focus: piercing (or quick draw), rapid shot, heighten and extend

Ruze is a lot of fun to play. I am at work so I can't check her starting stats but I think they were

Strength 16
Dexterity 16
Constitution 12
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 8
Charisma 10

She currently has +2 to +3 tomes on all stats. Ruze has amazing DPS and dual wields a Radiance Rapier and Radiance Shortsword and typically wears the Breastplate of Destruction simply because it aids her To Hit which she needs a little vs Orthons and wears Spectral Gloves mostly for the +2 to hit bonus.

You will have to increase your To Hit by all means on this toon since your BA will not be as high as a normal rogue. Ruze has +2 to enhancement with Rapier and Shortsword and is Assassin specialized. Recently she acquired a Bloodstone which has made her DPS really amazing.

Typically she is Displaced while fighting and has Shield up which is a nice feature to have. Also of note since you are strength based you may have to put more into Trap Sense when you need to run through extensive elite traps, but her buffs and Improved Uncanny Dodge is usually enough.

You will have to forget about having a high AC. Her high is around 45 and go with more guards. To this end she wears Fearsome Dragontouched Armor with Spell Resistance 22 and Disintergration Guard. She has wears Bracers Demon's Consortium, Bramble-Casters which has Thorn Guard, all negative Slay Living Guard greensteel goggles, a greensteel Charisma Cloak with Air Guard, Golden Greaves for damage reduction and a Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II (which often gives her spell points back) or the Silver Flame Talisman to avoid negative levels.

She has 299 hit points and has a greensteel mineral II hitpoint helm. She has more with the Minos Legens but I recently switched her gear around. She is a lot of fun to play. Even though the DC of her spells is low, things still get Webbed and blinded from Glitterdust allowing her and everyone free sneak attacks.

She will not be the best assassin in the world but her Intelligence will be boosted from the fact she is a Wizard by 2. So in effect she will assassinate as if she were 15th level and being drow helps with the extra Intelligence boost at the beginning as well. She has also sacrificed only 3d6 sneak attack damage she would have gotten at 15th, 17th and 19th level. a good trade in my opinion.

i have 5 rogues and she is definitely one of my favorite toons. my main is a lv 16 rogue.