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dragonhighlord1
06-06-2009, 10:37 AM
For all the "splash" builds aka ranger/monk/(fighter or rogue) does mod 9 nerf the ac bonus when not centered?

kaelis
06-06-2009, 10:54 AM
not on Lamannia.

redraider
06-06-2009, 10:57 AM
Not according to the release notes or comments from preview players.

I am hoping they keep the 1 ac center bonus as is but change the wis ac bonus to be lvl appropriate using enhancments. Example:

At lvl 1 - 1 AP for up to 1 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 3 - 1 AP for up to 2 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 5 - 1 AP for up to 3 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

etc.

At lvl 20 with a high enough Wis, you would get up to 10 AC from Wis. This would limit the effect of the splash monk on uber AC but keep the bonus for pure monks. :)

Trillea
06-06-2009, 11:09 AM
Not according to the release notes or comments from preview players.

I am hoping they keep the 1 ac center bonus as is but change the wis ac bonus to be lvl appropriate using enhancments. Example:

At lvl 1 - 1 AP for up to 1 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 3 - 1 AP for up to 2 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 5 - 1 AP for up to 3 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

etc.

At lvl 20 with a high enough Wis, you would get up to 10 AC from Wis. This would limit the effect of the splash monk on uber AC but keep the bonus for pure monks. :)

Oh #$*(#& no!

Thriand
06-06-2009, 11:25 AM
Not according to the release notes or comments from preview players.

I am hoping they keep the 1 ac center bonus as is but change the wis ac bonus to be lvl appropriate using enhancments. Example:

At lvl 1 - 1 AP for up to 1 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 3 - 1 AP for up to 2 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 5 - 1 AP for up to 3 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

etc.

At lvl 20 with a high enough Wis, you would get up to 10 AC from Wis. This would limit the effect of the splash monk on uber AC but keep the bonus for pure monks. :)

Now that is the worst idea I've ever heard on the subject. You are going to punish a generally gimped class in DDO by making them spend AP on something they should get for free.

Delacroix21
06-06-2009, 12:06 PM
Horrible idea.


I have no problem with people splashing monk for AC. It forces them to invest in another stat as well as give up class levels of their own. No different from 2/3 paladin splashes that were so common before. Or splashing 1/2 rogue levels for full umd and evasion. Some people just dont like multiclassing, well there are a dozen other MMOs out there without it.

Garth_of_Sarlona
06-06-2009, 12:09 PM
Not according to the release notes or comments from preview players.

I am hoping they keep the 1 ac center bonus as is but change the wis ac bonus to be lvl appropriate using enhancments.

yes this seems like a spectacularly bad idea - any solution to the monk splash problem should not affect pure monks as well. This would not only cause them to have to spend APs on something they get now for free, but also have an artificial cap of 30 wis on AC at lvl 20.

There have been several good suggestions as regards the monk wisdom bonus to AC in other threads, so I won't repeat them here.

Garth

Mindspat
06-06-2009, 12:58 PM
Now that is the worst idea I've ever heard on the subject. You are going to punish a generally gimped class in DDO by making them spend AP on something they should get for free.


Unfortunately GamePlay and Balance tends to trump Should Haves. Remember when Human Versatility was free?

Oh man, I remember when moving would disrupt casting spells...

The issue is more to do with AC then it does with Monks. Maybe there could be an enhancement for how AC functions - why not allow those wanting to get insanely high AC to do so if there's an alternate enhancement to how AC works - Keep monks the same but make Sword and Boards matter?

Thriand
06-06-2009, 01:21 PM
Unfortunately GamePlay and Balance tends to trump Should Haves. Remember when Human Versatility was free?

Oh man, I remember when moving would disrupt casting spells...

The issue is more to do with AC then it does with Monks. Maybe there could be an enhancement for how AC functions - why not allow those wanting to get insanely high AC to do so if there's an alternate enhancement to how AC works - Keep monks the same but make Sword and Boards matter?

How is forcing a gimp class to become even more gimp Balance? The issue doesn't have as much to do with AC as it has to do with nerfing a class that doesn't need to be nerfed.

Besides human versatility was never a "should have" it wasn't a staple of the human race. Wis to AC is a staple of monks.

Greydeath
06-07-2009, 02:54 AM
Remember when Human Versatility was free?

No - because it never was... :rolleyes:

baddax
06-07-2009, 05:20 AM
I would personally like to see the Wis AC bonus ADDED to armor as long as it was light armor, applied the same way as evasion. In order to get wis dex bonus you must be in light armor or no armor. Not sure of all of the ramifications but it might create some interesting modest Dex builds that could still use armor and achieve good/excellent Ac.

The way i see it is if you can Evade an area effect spell such as fireball, in light armor. I see no reason why you could not evade a sword swipe easier, in light armor.

Shade
06-07-2009, 05:31 AM
It should just work like the sorcerer splash.

Pure sorc = double SP bonus from items.
Every non sorc level you take divides the bonus.

So for the AC, pure monk stays as now. Splash monk gets a penalty depending on how many monk vs non monk levels. 19 monk/1ftr = 95% of what he'd normally get from the wisdom bonus to AC, 18monk/2 ftr, 90%, and so on.

baddax
06-07-2009, 05:42 AM
lets see wizardry VI = 150 spell points. X2 for a sorc. = 300

I really dont see how 150 spell points is goint to make or break any casters, even bards. However dropping say 6 points of AC from Wisdom Ac bonus for a common 1 or 2 level monk splash makes a HUGE difference. I really dont see how this is a relative comparison.

Kraldor
06-07-2009, 06:02 AM
Stop trying to break rules from PnP. Your amount of monk levels or being "centered" does not have any effect on wisdom AC in real DnD and it shouldn't have any effect here.

zm00094
06-07-2009, 07:19 AM
Since we're on the topic of wisdom bonus to AC, I hope you don't mind a question. I can't find the definitive answer on the forums. What is actually being done with mod 9?

Is wisdom bonus now being treated as a shield bonus? Is two weapon defense being treated as a shield bonus? Both?

baddax
06-07-2009, 07:24 AM
Good question.
I havent heard of any changes to either.

Letrii
06-11-2009, 09:48 PM
Actually centered is just a rewording of monk rules in PnP. Lose ac bonus if more than light load or wearing any armour, which is what lsoing centered is.

Aspenor
06-11-2009, 11:24 PM
Actually centered is just a rewording of monk rules in PnP. Lose ac bonus if more than light load or wearing any armour, which is what lsoing centered is.

wrong. centered is turbine's version of flurry of blows, which has nothing to do with armor.

axebender
06-14-2009, 03:32 AM
i absolutely cannot believe this thread..ac not mattering in ddo was a constant issue wit most of u ..now that possiblilities are open to make it matter are here people wanna gimp it? leave it alone

Lithic
06-14-2009, 10:00 AM
i absolutely cannot believe this thread..ac not mattering in ddo was a constant issue wit most of u ..now that possiblilities are open to make it matter are here people wanna gimp it? leave it alone

The problem is not that "now possibilities are open to make it matter".

The problem is that if you want it to matter, you need to be a ranger12+/monk1/X to make it matter, or possibly a shield and wet noodle paladin. Anyone else who cares about armour class is kidding themselves in the current game.

All hail Lithic the neutral!

dragonofsteel2
06-14-2009, 10:31 AM
Actually centered is just a rewording of monk rules in PnP. Lose ac bonus if more than light load or wearing any armour, which is what lsoing centered is.

Center is using monk weapon, wearing no armor and keeping light load.

Now the AC bonus is wearing no armor and keeping a light load, really one difference between the two. Which is using a monk weapon.

Please learn how the rules or stated and what the difference is.


wrong. centered is turbine's version of flurry of blows, which has nothing to do with armor.

No turbine did not change what center means, everyone on these forums seem to do that though.



Shade It should just work like the sorcerer splash.

Pure sorc = double SP bonus from items.
Every non sorc level you take divides the bonus

Now want to talk about rule changes made for MMo this is one, sorc never got more from items then wizards. Also there was no difference refresh timers on spells, but do not see every wizard on the forums been getting fudge, up in arms about how they made sorc. ten times better in this game. Never understood way this change was made? Why again did sorc. need more of advantage again? Why is that because this what you would hear if do not like it play a sorc. don't nerf my sorc. Since this was never a Pen&Paper rule they were at there own ideas how to bring it into play.

axebender
06-14-2009, 03:13 PM
The problem is not that "now possibilities are open to make it matter".

The problem is that if you want it to matter, you need to be a ranger12+/monk1/X to make it matter, or possibly a shield and wet noodle paladin. Anyone else who cares about armour class is kidding themselves in the current game.

All hail Lithic the neutral!

not saying i agree or not but the answer to this is def not to gimp a core rule of pnp. if those that wish to make thos splash monk buildes for ac wish to, let them..i do...but we do so at a sacrifice. wich most of the time is dps. creativity on how people create there build should not be punished cause other existing toons do not have the capability. balance is an issue here not the monk splash. allowing other classes the ability to increase there ac if they wish to make an ac build should be more available. but its not so we have the monk splash. monks currently in the game are what paladins use to be broken. but its like saying those that spashed pally in there build in the past for saves and ac. should not be able to get there ac and save bonuses cause now all other toons without it are nothing in compaired to a pally splash..other classes need to be balanced not gimping multiclased toons, so those of us that recieve those benefits have to start all over again

gillilandjoshua
06-14-2009, 03:25 PM
what should it matter what weapons the toon uses the charachter would still have a fighting style martial arts related, i agree that armor should negate the wis bonus beacause it would interfere with the freemovemednt which would be a martial arts staple in avoiding blows. if u wanna complain go ahead but just because u whine doesnt mean something should be done about it. i think some major changes should be made to sword and board to make it more feasible like adding dr and some more ac . but i have not any ideas to hep correct other than that.

baddax
06-14-2009, 04:51 PM
I dont not understand most of this line of thinking. To me the idea of the Wisdom bonus is based upon Anticipation of the blow. IMO you should have up to your Dex AC bonus to AC also work with Wisdom. If you have +5 dex bonus in armor you should be able to add up to +5 AC from your Monk Wisdom bonus.

The wisdom AC bonus is not from any action it is from anticipation of the action ie avoidance of gaps and openings in your defense. The Dex bonus is the action. I see no reason why monk wisdom bonus should not be added to AC up to your actual dex bonus.

The samurai is one warrior who comes to mind that uses armor, weapons and martial arts skill in battle.

Also you can avoid an area effect spell such as Fireball with Evasion in Light Armor, which covers a large area but cannot avoid a sword strike via wisdom bonus also in light armor, which likely requires much less movement.

As far as game balance goes im pretty sure builds like the Ranger Monk spalshes with no armor are way ahead of the AC curve compared to lightly armored similar builds.

I personaly am not for Said Nerfing of monk Wis Ac bonus but would at Least like to see it added to light armor and shield builds. It might go towards evening the play field for S&B characters.

mediocresurgeon
06-14-2009, 05:02 PM
I am hoping they keep the 1 ac center bonus as is but change the wis ac bonus to be lvl appropriate using enhancments. Example:

At lvl 1 - 1 AP for up to 1 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 3 - 1 AP for up to 2 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

At lvl 5 - 1 AP for up to 3 AC pt of Wis bonus if wis is high enough

etc.

At lvl 20 with a high enough Wis, you would get up to 10 AC from Wis. This would limit the effect of the splash monk on uber AC but keep the bonus for pure monks. :)

This is a terrible implementation of a good idea. Just make sure that a monk in Ocean Stance with max wisdom (probably built for Stunning Fist) gets 100% of its wisdom to AC. Preferably without spending action points.

Like perhaps... only getting Monk AC while Centered. The real problem isn't that a monk splash gets full wisom to AC... it's that they get full wisdom to AC without getting stuck with crappy Monk weapons.

baddax
06-14-2009, 05:12 PM
This is a terrible implementation of a good idea. Just make sure that a monk in Ocean Stance with max wisdom (probably built for Stunning Fist) gets 100% of its wisdom to AC. Preferably without spending action points.

Like perhaps... only getting Monk AC while Centered. The real problem isn't that a monk splash gets full wisom to AC... it's that they get full wisdom to AC without getting stuck with crappy Monk weapons.

/agree.

Aspenor
06-14-2009, 06:12 PM
Please learn how the rules or stated and what the difference is.



No turbine did not change what center means, everyone on these forums seem to do that though.

speak for yourself. "Centered" does not exist in Dungeons & Dragons 3.5.

Aspenor
06-14-2009, 06:14 PM
here's an idea, all you people begging for nerfs just drop it. it's fine the way it is. i'm sick and tired of all the crybaby whining about monk wisdom AC bonus.

Thriand
06-14-2009, 06:29 PM
Please learn how the rules or stated and what the difference is.

I know the rules very well. The is no difference in the wisdom bonus in pnp for monks than in the game, they can use handaxes (which they are proficient in) all they want and never take a penalty to their wisdom to AC just because they aren't wielding a "monk weapon".



No turbine did not change what center means, everyone on these forums seem to do that though.

Of course they didn't, they made it up. It doesn't exist



Now want to talk about rule changes made for MMo this is one, sorc never got more from items then wizards. Also there was no difference refresh timers on spells, but do not see every wizard on the forums been getting fudge, up in arms about how they made sorc.
Yeah wizards in pen and paper never got to spontaneously cast spells either. It would be kind of silly to give wizards the sole reason you play a sorc in pen and paper and not give sorcs something. I have both a sorcerer and a wizard and trust me they are both equally powerful in their own regards.