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View Full Version : My only complaint about Ranged weapon attacks



cdemeritt
06-01-2009, 12:33 PM
Well, after playing 2 ranged spec. characters, I have only one issue with ranged weapons. There have been many many posts on the low DPS of said weapons making them almost useless in the fast paced high DPS zerg runs. however to bring the DPS up to keep up with Zerg runs, would greatly overpower ranged attacks for people like me who dungeon crawl solo. Both of my solo characters use heavy repeaters and love them, but when joining a group, they don't do so good. (not complaining here, just stating facts)

Throughout history, both RL and games, one of the most powerful builds are the archer. In many games I've invested far more heavily in archers than in heavy melee tanks. in RL a well trained archer could take out an enemy real fast with a head shot. Piercing CB bolts easily penetrate most armors.


What I think would help bring ranged attacks closer inline with melee, yet wouldn't make it so overpowering and unbalance it, would be to have a bow with the same affects as a vorpal. call is something like "heartseeker" or something, but on a natural 20, instakill.

Almost all other classes have Some form of instakill, why not ranged? Arcanes have PK and finger, Clerics have Destruction and banishment, Any Melee can get Vorpals, even monks and bards, Rogues have assainate.


Ok, so there are banishing bows out there, however, I feel a vorpal like bow would go a long way to bringing archers closer to melee types.

Kraak
06-01-2009, 12:41 PM
Kind of like Greater Slaying Arrows?

Omega2K
06-04-2009, 02:18 PM
Kind of like Greater Slaying Arrows?

Just make them 100% returning too and you've got a deal. ;)

What about adding the Feat Headshot? Or whatever it is called...

negative
06-04-2009, 02:21 PM
If it worked just like vorpal, I'd continue to do what I do now. Pick up 2 vorpals, and continue to out shine my ranged combat skills with my melee skills.

jazztromboneguy
06-04-2009, 08:50 PM
If it worked just like vorpal, I'd continue to do what I do now. Pick up 2 vorpals, and continue to out shine my ranged combat skills with my melee skills.

Neither relavant to the conversation, nor constructive. This thread in my opinion is about if ranged attacks should be improved and how. I think that ranged attacks in this setting and environment should not be the main DPS in the group. It should be limiting. Its postive quality is that you are (or should be) in the back of the group protected by the meat shields. its needed to help thin out the mobs, not kill them all. I mean.....Aargorn killed more people than Legolas in LOTR series, but Legolas in his supreme badness saved Aargorn and Gimli several times with a well placed shot.

cdemeritt
06-05-2009, 08:30 AM
Kind of like Greater Slaying Arrows?

Actually no. GSA are consumables, found in stacks of 20, and most ranged spec'd plays will burn through 20 arrows/bolts in a handful of seconds. a stack of 20 lasts me 10 sec in a heavy fight. maybe 15 if everyone hit and every mob failed their saving throw. I won't even enter a dungeon without at least 1000 Bolts


if the effects were on the bows themselves, or 100% returning, then we'd be getting warmer. A vorpal works on all creatures not immune. I don't have to carry 6 different Vorpals on my dwarven fighter and change between them because the Hobgoblins I'm fighting brought worgs. one vorpal kills them all. But I could certainly live with 100% returning GSA.

Zenako
06-05-2009, 09:53 AM
Well we can get close to that one shot IK result in practice right now on many mobs in the game when using a W/P bow with manyshot. With improved precise shot and manyshot, you can clear out hallways in a few volleys. (With upcoming stat damage changes, this will no longer work however...).

With any IK ability, you need to think about how powerful it could be in the hands of someone built for it, and would it be too overpowering. Would it still be useful at all versus Red Names? Likely not...

As for greater slaying arrows, I bank them in large quivers until I get stacks of 100 and then consider going hunting with them for fun on my own. In most quests when in party, it is hard to effectively use various types of ammo due the mix of mobs and the rapid pace we often experience things at.

Creating some sort of permanent or at least Sturdy Ammo, would be nice. Perhaps new bows where you could craft into them some features now only found on ammo? Just the feature on the Ancient Vulkorim Dagger for example with Giant Slaying. Put that type of feature on a Bow. You get to use perhaps a Stone from Gianthold (the one you use for the Refuge Access) as an ingrediant for Giant Slaying. For Undead Slaying you need the Orchard Stone. For Gnoll/Aberration Slaying you need the Desert Stone. Things like that which build on existing items in the game. Stick a base bow in the stone of change, add in some ingredients, the Slayer stone you want, and build a bound bow. That would be kinda cool.

negative
06-05-2009, 10:11 AM
Neither relavant to the conversation, nor constructive. This thread in my opinion is about if ranged attacks should be improved and how. I think that ranged attacks in this setting and environment should not be the main DPS in the group. It should be limiting. Its postive quality is that you are (or should be) in the back of the group protected by the meat shields. its needed to help thin out the mobs, not kill them all. I mean.....Aargorn killed more people than Legolas in LOTR series, but Legolas in his supreme badness saved Aargorn and Gimli several times with a well placed shot.
If you find my comment neither relevant nor constructive than you have failed to understand my comment. I heavily disagree with your assertion that ranged combat needs to be gimpy simply because you attack from range (and yes, that is what you are asserting). I also disagree that there would be any benefit to bringing a ranged character in a party if all they simply do is "help thin out the mobs", whereas all the other melee actually "kill them all".

My point, with my last comment, is that due to the extremely slow rate of fire on a bow, a bow that simply instakilled on a natural 20, similar to how a vorpal works, would be a terrible weapon, which no one would use. It would pale in comparision to what even a SnB character can do with a vorpal, let alone what a TWF character can do with two vorpals.

I think to many people overvalue the benifit of attacking from range far too much.

Mr_Ed7
06-05-2009, 10:15 AM
If it worked just like vorpal, I'd continue to do what I do now. Pick up 2 vorpals, and continue to out shine my ranged combat skills with my melee skills.

"That would be impossible...if I had a vorpal "heartseeker" bow I would be standing behind the caster killing the mobs before you even thought of "twitching" after them!"
Drelco Pathfinder, Ranger (Archer)

negative
06-05-2009, 10:20 AM
"That would be impossible...if I had a vorpal "heartseeker" bow I would be standing behind the caster killing the mobs before you even thought of "twitching" after them!"
Drelco Pathfinder, Ranger (Archer)
Because someone totally couldn't hit sprint boost and close the gap before you get off 2 or 3 shots in DDO.

And I'm sure that the caster is real excited that you are hiding behind their squishy butt.;)

Draccus
06-05-2009, 10:31 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of insta-kill added to the Deepwood Sniper enhancement at level 12. It could work just like assassinate but from range. It could/should only work from stealth as well.

valorik
06-05-2009, 12:20 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of insta-kill added to the Deepwood Sniper enhancement at level 12. It could work just like assassinate but from range. It could/should only work from stealth as well.

It should work with improved precise shot too ^^

Emili
06-05-2009, 12:34 PM
Well we can get close to that one shot IK result in practice right now on many mobs in the game when using a W/P bow with manyshot. With improved precise shot and manyshot, you can clear out hallways in a few volleys. (With upcoming stat damage changes, this will no longer work however...).

With any IK ability, you need to think about how powerful it could be in the hands of someone built for it, and would it be too overpowering. Would it still be useful at all versus Red Names? Likely not...

As for greater slaying arrows, I bank them in large quivers until I get stacks of 100 and then consider going hunting with them for fun on my own. In most quests when in party, it is hard to effectively use various types of ammo due the mix of mobs and the rapid pace we often experience things at.

Creating some sort of permanent or at least Sturdy Ammo, would be nice. Perhaps new bows where you could craft into them some features now only found on ammo? Just the feature on the Ancient Vulkorim Dagger for example with Giant Slaying. Put that type of feature on a Bow. You get to use perhaps a Stone from Gianthold (the one you use for the Refuge Access) as an ingrediant for Giant Slaying. For Undead Slaying you need the Orchard Stone. For Gnoll/Aberration Slaying you need the Desert Stone. Things like that which build on existing items in the game. Stick a base bow in the stone of change, add in some ingredients, the Slayer stone you want, and build a bound bow. That would be kinda cool.


Actually I played with Ambyre and Missy's WOP bows on Lammania... and the results were not really much different then WOP now. The mob died nearly just as quick as every volley after the con drain is a critical... thus added maybe oh, 10-20 seconds more time then what straight con drain does now.


I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of insta-kill added to the Deepwood Sniper enhancement at level 12. It could work just like assassinate but from range. It could/should only work from stealth as well.

Deepwoods is the one PrE which needs a lot of love. Rather ironic as it is the only of the ranger PrE's which is commonly associated with the ranger class in PnP.

IE. I think they put Arcane archer under ranger to keep the hit dice correct... the typical PnP Arcane archer looks more like a male elf fighter 4/warmage* 4/arcane archer 1+... etc... is really an fighter/mage PRC... thus is common among elves.

... and the typical Tempest in PnP DnD stems more related to the fighter class who most naturally qualify...
Hit Die: d10 To qualify to become a Tempest, a character must fulfill all the following criteria: Feats: Ambidexterity, Dodge, Mobility Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse (any) or Weapon Focus (any). Base Attack Bonus: +9. A level 6 tempest built out of a ranger cannot be done in PnP... not even level 9 ... level 15 possible but you're hit die from that point now d10. Is really a Fighter based PrC. More common among humans and elves... should you look to forgotten realms.