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Garth_of_Sarlona
05-21-2009, 10:47 PM
From bottom of splashscreen (http://i39.tinypic.com/14jrx3a.jpg):

http://i41.tinypic.com/ztiv03.jpg

When does this week start and what is planned?

Garth

Monkey_Archer
05-21-2009, 10:53 PM
Hopefully its more then just hype to try to make us forget how broken monks are....

rest
05-21-2009, 11:06 PM
I'm pretty sure it was just a mistake. Should have been "Weak of the Monk".

Damn homonyms!

Delacroix21
05-21-2009, 11:32 PM
Its nothing, its not intended for current DDO players but ones just joining the game. Just like the Mod 9 picture of the monk on the front page of DDO, its designed to attract new players to an "active combat" meele class which will be more familiar to other MMOs.


It is also to derail the issues surrounding the class. I especially like the death with a "flick of the wrist" part. I have 30 wis with my monk, and I can tell you my 28 fortitude save death attack doesnt kill doodie.

Monkey_Archer
05-21-2009, 11:35 PM
Its nothing, its not intended for current DDO players but ones just joining the game. Just like the Mod 9 picture of the monk on the front page of DDO, its designed to attract new players to an "active combat" meele class which will be more familiar to other MMOs.


It is also to derail the issues surrounding the class. I especially like the death with a "flick of the wrist" part. I have 30 wis with my monk, and I can tell you my 28 fortitude save death attack doesnt kill doodie.

Hey if you gimp you monk by maxing wisdom you CAN reliably qp trogs.... :rolleyes: 38 wisdom 12 strength anyone?

Borror0
05-21-2009, 11:38 PM
I'm pretty sure it was just a mistake. Should have been "Weak of the Monk".

Damn homonyms!
I thought it was a mistake too. They clearly meant "Year of the monk splashed ranger".

Its nothing, its not intended for current DDO players but ones just joining the game. Just like the Mod 9 picture of the monk on the front page of DDO, its designed to attract new players to an "active combat" meele class which will be more familiar to other MMOs.
If I was Turbine, I would want to scare potential new players away from a class that under performs and has class ability that are simply broken, or ridiculously underpowered (like about everything in Inevitable Dominion). If I was Turbine, I would want my players to play rangers.

Monkey_Archer
05-21-2009, 11:54 PM
I thought it was a mistake too. They clearly meant "Year of the monk splashed ranger".

If I was Turbine, I would want to scare potential new players away from a class that under performs and has class ability that are simply broken, or ridiculously underpowered (like about everything in Inevitable Dominion). If I was Turbine, I would want my players to play rangers.

I wouldnt say inevitable dominion is any more underpowered then harmonious balance... besides the fact that they are missing enhancments.

It would be nice if they got around to fixing karmic strike for handwraps.

Angelus_dead
05-21-2009, 11:59 PM
If I was Turbine, I would want to scare potential new players away from a class that under performs and has class ability that are simply broken, or ridiculously underpowered (like about everything in Inevitable Dominion). If I was Turbine, I would want my players to play rangers.
But Turbine is a corporation, not a single human. Although they're a collective for some financial/legal purposes, choices such as advertising copywriting are made by an individual who thinks of himself first, and who protects the company image just to preserve his paychecks.

From that perspective it makes more sense: If the advertising discourages new customers from a disappointing mis-feature like Inevitable Dominion monks, that might be more profitable for the corporation... but it also constitutes an admission of failure by the management of the DDO project. To supress advertising monks because they're not good enough would be to invite superiors to question "Remind me why I funded your module 7, and why I'd want to keep paying you generally?"

Angelus_dead
05-22-2009, 12:03 AM
I wouldnt say inevitable dominion is any more underpowered then harmonious balance... besides the fact that they are missing enhancments.
That is doubly wrong.

Inevitable Dominion IS a lot weaker than Harmonious Balance... but the lower number of enhancements isn't part of the reason. The additional Harmonious Balance enhancements suck, and are barely a factor in game balance.

(The actual reason Dominion is bad is because the only mobs who are likely to keep fighting long enough for a 3-combo debuff to matter are named bosses who are immune to it anyhow. Without that immunity, dark monks could be the "boss nerfer" spec, and they'd have a valid niche)


It would be nice if they got around to fixing karmic strike for handwraps.
The problem with Karmic Strike is that it's not worth taking the chance of the boss getting a 3x crit through your fortification in exchange for a 2x crit from your monk weapon.

You see, crits are inherently more dangerous to PCs than to mobs, because PCs have much lower hp totals but more healbot support. Trading crit for crit isn't worth it for the same reason that Vicious weapons aren't currently worth it. That's why all PCs over level 10 try very hard to have 100% fort. (And when you toss in the fact that some mobs have better crit mults than monks, Karmic Strike looks even worse)

Monkey_Archer
05-22-2009, 12:18 AM
That is doubly wrong.

Inevitable Dominion IS a lot weaker than Harmonious Balance... but the lower number of enhancements isn't part of the reason. The additional Harmonious Balance enhancements suck, and are barely a factor in game balance.

(The actual reason Dominion is bad is because the only mobs who are likely to keep fighting long enough for a 3-combo debuff to matter are named bosses who are immune to it anyhow. Without that immunity, dark monks could be the "boss nerfer" spec, and they'd have a valid niche)

I disagree...

I play a dark monk, and usually will prep a finisher while killing one mob, then use it on the next. Even in as a str/dex monk in windstance, my finishers have a DC of 34 (36 in water stance).
Freezing the lifeblood is basically instant death to any humanoid target in the game. Pain touch is great for neutralizing devils/orthons before i roll a 20. Falling star strike isnt great, but may be more useful once we need to dps the refuge trash.
Karmic strike (even though bugged for handwraps) is still a good dps boost for kamas. Almost 2 guaranteed crits per attack chain is effectively a +20% critical threat range overall.

Monkey_Archer
05-22-2009, 12:23 AM
The problem with Karmic Strike is that it's not worth taking the chance of the boss getting a 3x crit through your fortification in exchange for a 2x crit from your monk weapon.


While it does get through fortification, it does not get through ac :D

Its great for tanking the reaver since he is not immune to the fire strikes.... but not really worth it on harry/sally, may as well be doing lighting strikes instead.

Angelus_dead
05-22-2009, 12:36 AM
Freezing the lifeblood is basically instant death to any humanoid target in the game.
Not to red-named humanoids. Thus, not to humanoids who are important to fight.


Pain touch is great for neutralizing devils/orthons before i roll a 20.
Not for red-named orthons. Thus, not for orthons who are important to fight.


Karmic strike (even though bugged for handwraps) is still a good dps boost for kamas. Almost 2 guaranteed crits per attack chain is effectively a +20% critical threat range overall.
Would be nice if it incorporated the -100% fort debuff against the enemy.

As explained, dark abilities are mostly harmless to bosses. But light abilities almost always continue to work fine (cursing pit fiends a notable exception). The benefits of Heal Curse, Heal Ki, Walk with Sun, and Aligning Heavens work fine against raid mobs (in fact, they're better the more party members you have to get buffed)

Even if one accepts your optimistic perception of building a combo on one trash mob and launching it against a second (and ignore the chance that another player will instakill the guy you just debuffed), we're still left with the conclusion that dark abilities help against enemies who are easy, while light powers help against enemies who are hard. It's the hard stuff that really matters when judging the power of a character feature.

Monkey_Archer
05-22-2009, 12:59 AM
The benefits of Heal Curse, Heal Ki, Walk with Sun, and Aligning Heavens work fine against raid mobs (in fact, they're better the more party members you have to get buffed)


fist of light 0 damage VS fist of darkness 2d6
Heal Ki stops your dps to use it VS touch of despair negates 1/2 of the next heal cast (assuming this isnt broken this is great for harry just before the gnolls show up.. but there is no way to tell if it actually works..)

Path of light is helpful yes...
better vs named? Depends on if you would rather help heal or do more dps...

Angelus_dead
05-22-2009, 01:34 AM
fist of light 0 damage VS fist of darkness 2d6
Tell that to Sorjek.
Well, regardless of the occasional mobs who are damaged by positive energy, 2d6 is unimpressive compared to what else you could have done with 10 Ki.


Heal Ki stops your dps to use it
Hardly. There's a little opportunity cost in Ki and CDs, and occasionally a break in punching to nod your head. But as a monk, your DPS wasn't great anyway. If you don't think the hp income is worth a little less DPS, you can make that choice on-the-fly.


VS touch of despair negates 1/2 of the next heal cast
Is that a joke, or do you have a list of mobs with meaningful heal spells? (And whose initials aren't TR?)


Path of light is helpful yes...
better vs named? Depends on if you would rather help heal or do more dps...
That's inaccurate, because if you truly want to cause more personal DPS you'd stay away from Light OR Dark and instead do elemental punches that both paths get.
And because +1 attack rolls makes the other guys do more melee DPS.
And because +10% mana makes the other guys do more spell DPS.


Look, being a light monk means you're a kind of fountain of healing. As long as you have someone to punch, you and people near you see your hitpoints go up in moderate amounts with good frequency. If you meet a boss the effect is amplified, because all your melee buddies are striking the same Curse of Healing. And after fights when you're packed with extra Ki, you can convert it to party buffs/heals while you're running to the next mobs. Oftentimes a solo light monk can relax in battle as his AC, Evasion, Healing Amp, and healing punches synergize so that his hp income outstrips the monsters' potential to damage him.

That's the baseline the dark monk has to compete with: Is his ability of debuffing and 2d6 negative damage tactically competitive with with that bottomless pool of new hitpoints? It would take a lot for that to be the case. You fight some mob and build a combo... but if you use it on him he's probably almost dead. You look at another mob, but his hp are pretty low. You find a mob with a full bar, so you debuff him... without knowing that someone had been stat-damaging him so he was nearly harmless already. Later you build another combo and debuff a mob, a quarter second before the sorc decides it's time for another "Tab, Finger" on his killcount.

With a lot of attentiveness and a bit of luck, a diligent dark monk can avoid some of those pitfalls and deliver debuffs against mobs who were still a combat threat. Maybe. It's still not nearly as good as if he applied a lesser debuff to a group of mobs at the start of a fight, because the delay to get the combos going means the threat was attrited by the time you debuff. But all that is the easy stuff anyhow. It's a bit time-consuming, but unlikely to make you risk failure or expenditure.

Time passes and you reach the boss. Then what? The dark monk has almost nothing. He can use a debuff that's completely ignored, he can spend 10 Ki for 7 damage (but the baseline is 5 Ki for 8), or he can prep a Karmic Strike to give the boss an opportunity to one-shot him. But when the going gets tough and the dark abilities becomes less useful, remember that this is where the light monk's Curse of Healing would really kick into greater effectiveness.

epochofcrepuscule
05-22-2009, 06:19 AM
As I have capped and raided out 8 monks altogether (no joke-im dead serious. I like perfect builds in all my characters), I fully 100% agree with Angelus_dead.

Through my extensive monk studying-if you wanted dps, make something else. If you wante d someone to solo most stuff in game that is not a caster-light based monk. If you want a monk USEFUL to a party, light based monk. At higher levels you have enough KI to do water-light-water when you first enter. Let me tell ya, casters and cleric are happy with that reduction right before they throw out the buffs. What does dark do? Right..... nadda thing. You can scream debuffs are awesome all you want, but if you are in a group that needs debuffs for trash mobs, recall and drop because its a failed run. There is a reason they are called trash mobs. Red/purple named mobs will ignore your debuffs, but not a heal curse, not a mass heroism effect, and certainly not a spell reduction cost or a mass cure.


P.S. I know I didnt post my time per day, week, month, year, lifetime of gaming for credentials. You will just to have survive with that tidbit I gave ya though.

P.S.S. If you are dual wielding kamas other then vorpals/weakeners/wounders you are hurting your dps already. Just so you are aware. Past level... I dont know.... 3..... your fists start doing 1d8 dmg. Kamas dont give you faster attack speed or more hits. So, catch up with times if ya wanna talk about monk DPS. Otherwise, you just seem silly-and we dont want that.

P.S.S.S. If your argument is I didnt say kamas were a good dps tool, then why even bring them up? using karmic strike every now and then isnt worth the overall dps (which is rather substantial) drop-a noob can realize that.

Monkey_Archer
05-22-2009, 12:17 PM
Is that a joke, or do you have a list of mobs with meaningful heal spells? (And whose initials aren't TR?)
Gnolls heal harry for how much? 110+ pts?
110 / 2 = 55+ extra damage from 1 attack.



That's inaccurate, because if you truly want to cause more personal DPS you'd stay away from Light OR Dark and instead do elemental punches that both paths get.

assuming your target isnt immune to elemental attacks...
Lets face it... Ki is not at a premium... the highest dps with strikes you can do vs harry is air 3+ air 2+ earth 3+ earth2+ fist of darkness.



And because +1 attack rolls makes the other guys do more melee DPS.
And because +10% mana makes the other guys do more spell DPS.

Morale bonus does not stack with bard songs or gh....
+10% mana, yes its very helpful, cant agrue there...



Look, being a light monk means you're a kind of fountain of healing. As long as you have someone to punch, you and people near you see your hitpoints go up in moderate amounts with good frequency. If you meet a boss the effect is amplified, because all your melee buddies are striking the same Curse of Healing. And after fights when you're packed with extra Ki, you can convert it to party buffs/heals while you're running to the next mobs. Oftentimes a solo light monk can relax in battle as his AC, Evasion, Healing Amp, and healing punches synergize so that his hp income outstrips the monsters' potential to damage him.

And the dark monk has the same AC, evasion, and healing amp..
2 differnt styles:
Dark monks prevent damage from coming in the first place with debuffs.
Light monks regain damage taken with healing curse.



That's the baseline the dark monk has to compete with: Is his ability of debuffing and 2d6 negative damage tactically competitive with with that bottomless pool of new hitpoints? It would take a lot for that to be the case. You fight some mob and build a combo... but if you use it on him he's probably almost dead. You look at another mob, but his hp are pretty low. You find a mob with a full bar, so you debuff him... without knowing that someone had been stat-damaging him so he was nearly harmless already. Later you build another combo and debuff a mob, a quarter second before the sorc decides it's time for another "Tab, Finger" on his killcount.

I prefer the word neutralized as opposed to debuff :D
It takes 4 hits to neutralize a trash mob. A smart dark monk will prep a combo in advance....

Using your logic:
You fight some mob and hit him with healing curse, by the time you gain 5 hp hes dead... you find a mob with a full bar and hit him with healing curse, then he dies from stat damage before you gain any hp back. You finally find a target to gain hp from then the sorc fingers it...




With a lot of attentiveness and a bit of luck, a diligent dark monk can avoid some of those pitfalls and deliver debuffs against mobs who were still a combat threat. Maybe. It's still not nearly as good as if he applied a lesser debuff to a group of mobs at the start of a fight, because the delay to get the combos going means the threat was attrited by the time you debuff. But all that is the easy stuff anyhow. It's a bit time-consuming, but unlikely to make you risk failure or expenditure.

Time passes and you reach the boss. Then what? The dark monk has almost nothing. He can use a debuff that's completely ignored, he can spend 10 Ki for 7 damage (but the baseline is 5 Ki for 8), or he can prep a Karmic Strike to give the boss an opportunity to one-shot him. But when the going gets tough and the dark abilities becomes less useful, remember that this is where the light monk's Curse of Healing would really kick into greater effectiveness.

Yep after that fight is done it comes down to:
Dark monk did more dps... maybe the equivalent of a couple extra swings...
Light monk helped heal... maybe the equivalent of 1 extra cure mass from the cleric

Neither side has much to brag about IMO...

Oh... and 1 word for any monk that gets 1-shoted from a crit...
/REROLL!!

Monkey_Archer
05-22-2009, 12:26 PM
You can scream debuffs are awesome all you want, but if you are in a group that needs debuffs for trash mobs, recall and drop because its a failed run.
You could say the same about a group that needs a non-stacking moral bonus to attacks or a couple hp gained from monk healing.



P.S.S. If you are dual wielding kamas other then vorpals/weakeners/wounders you are hurting your dps already. Just so you are aware. Past level... I dont know.... 3..... your fists start doing 1d8 dmg. Kamas dont give you faster attack speed or more hits. So, catch up with times if ya wanna talk about monk DPS. Otherwise, you just seem silly-and we dont want that.


WOAH! :eek:
are you on Thelanis?
ill give you 1 million plat and a bloodstone straight up for your transmuting handwraps...
oh... right... they dont exist..

but a noob can realize that.. ;)

Angelus_dead
05-22-2009, 12:42 PM
Gnolls heal harry for how much? 110+ pts?
110 / 2 = 55+ extra damage from 1 attack.
1. I've seen no evidence (or even a supportive ancedote) that the debuff even works in that situation.
2. Cutting off half of a few seconds worth of his healing doesn't matter because of quantization. That is, if he gets healed at all you're already on a second round, so... it doesn't matter.


assuming your target isnt immune to elemental attacks...
Nope.


Morale bonus does not stack with bard songs or gh....
Light monks don't provide a morale bonus. They give what players have called a "monk bonus", and it does stack with arcane magic.


And the dark monk has the same AC, evasion, and healing amp.
Yes he does... but he doesn't have hitpoint input any time he finds someone to punch. As already explained, it is the synergy of good defense and a slow hitpoint income which combines to allow the light monk to come out of so many combats no worse than he started with.


Dark monks prevent damage from coming in the first place with debuffs.
That is certainly how the designers wanted it to work. But in practice that doesn't happen, for reasons which have already been explained. (Short version: the monsters with the best ability to cause damage also have arbitrary immunity to the debuffs)


A smart dark monk will prep a combo in advance....
The flaws with that idea have already been explained.


Using your logic:
You fight some mob and hit him with healing curse, by the time you gain 5 hp hes dead... you find a mob with a full bar and hit him with healing curse, then he dies from stat damage before you gain any hp back. You finally find a target to gain hp from then the sorc fingers it...
Nope. As already explained, the light monk doesn't rely on healing curse for his hp income in a group. He's got healing finishers for that. The healing curse only reliably kicks in on boss monsters: exactly the creatures that have the best ability to cause damage, and exactly the place where dark monk powers are least effective.



Yep after that fight is done it comes down to:
Dark monk did more dps... maybe the equivalent of a couple extra swings...
Light monk helped heal... maybe the equivalent of 1 extra cure mass from the cleric
Incorrect, as I already explained in detail.


Oh... and 1 word for any monk that gets 1-shoted from a crit...
/REROLL!!
Not quite. If a monk gets one-shotted, the real answer is "Drop Inevitable Dominion so you don't kill yourself with Karmic Strike anymore"

Angelus_dead
05-22-2009, 12:45 PM
P.S.S.S. If your argument is I didnt say kamas were a good dps tool, then why even bring them up? using karmic strike every now and then isnt worth the overall dps (which is rather substantial) drop-a noob can realize that.
Clearly, he was referring to bosses where you do use kama for DPS, because he has DR/Good+Silver that you can't beat with handwraps.

Arkat
05-22-2009, 12:49 PM
Not quite. If a monk gets one-shotted, the real answer is "Drop Inevitable Dominion so you don't kill yourself with Karmic Strike anymore"

LOL! That was funny A_D!

That's kinda like saying people should stop killing themselves cuz they're using Vicious weapons (as they're implemented now). I think that's something we all pretty much agree on. I wonder why some folks are having trouble seeing that same issue with Karmic Strike?

Oh, I forgot. "Dark Monks" are soooooo kewl...yeah boyeeeeeee!!!! :rolleyes:

Monkey_Archer
05-22-2009, 01:05 PM
1. I've seen no evidence (or even a supportive ancedote) that the debuff even works in that situation.
2. Cutting off half of a few seconds worth of his healing doesn't matter because of quantization. That is, if he gets healed at all you're already on a second round, so... it doesn't matter.

there is no evidence of this working... and no real way to test it...
But, if it doesnt work like this, its a bug and should be fixed.

55 less healing = 55 damage no matter how you look at it.



but he doesn't have hitpoint input any time he finds someone to punch.

No, i have pots :D



That is certainly how the designers wanted it to work. But in practice that doesn't happen, for reasons which have already been explained. (Short version: the monsters with the best ability to cause damage also have arbitrary immunity to the debuffs)

In practice this does work. Athough not as easy as just healing up after a fight.
Devils... one of the few trash mobs with high enough attack to cause significant damage to my monk can be nauseated. (Pain touch) After which they just sit there waiting to loose their heads :D



Nope. As already explained, the light monk doesn't rely on healing curse for his hp income in a group. He's got healing finishers for that. The healing curse only reliably kicks in on boss monsters: exactly the creatures that have the best ability to cause damage, and exactly the place where dark monk powers are least effective.

healing finisher, pots...
tomato, tomato..



Incorrect, as I already explained in detail.

Not incorrect.
Karmic strike = more dps when transmuting is needed.
Fist of darkness = more dps while prepping combos for trash and more dps on named (besides sorjek :rolleyes:)
Fist of light = less dps (besides sorjek)
Healing ki = less dps from nodding head instead of attacking

Monkey_Archer
05-22-2009, 01:11 PM
LOL! That was funny A_D!

That's kinda like saying people should stop killing themselves cuz they're using Vicious weapons (as they're implemented now). I think that's something we all pretty much agree on. I wonder why some folks are having trouble seeing that same issue with Karmic Strike?

Oh, I forgot. "Dark Monks" are soooooo kewl...yeah boyeeeeeee!!!! :rolleyes:

Vicious is not even close to kamic strike...

Of the many times ive tanked the reaver, i cant remeber the last time he auto-critted me.... to busy casting spells and missing :D
Maybe low ac monks using kamic strike on trash are having problems.... i dunno..

Bad example for end game raiding, but I did have fun auto banishing vale/vale quest trash devils with a banishing quarterstaff...

Delacroix21
05-23-2009, 09:17 AM
I thought it was a mistake too. They clearly meant "Year of the monk splashed ranger".

If I was Turbine, I would want to scare potential new players away from a class that under performs and has class ability that are simply broken, or ridiculously underpowered (like about everything in Inevitable Dominion). If I was Turbine, I would want my players to play Tempest rangers.


True Borror, but these are the same Devs that still list Arcane Archer and Deepwood Sniper as "Good" under solo ability.:D Definately feeling all the ex hunters from LOTRO and WoW coming here to make a bow user will be so frustrated with DDO's bow usage they will go back.

jwelch
05-23-2009, 06:58 PM
It's funny, because playing a straight monk, (light) and my wife playing a straight rogue, my son playing a sorcerer, there's not a lot of dungeons we have problems with other than the problems that any small party without a healer has. Hirelings fix that issue nicely.

But I think that the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of any class is up to the player. Monks are not, (unless you're playing NWN(2), in which case, monks are insane killing machines), good characters if you want to wade into any battle and kill things en masse. As DDO designs them, if played right, you get a good mix of speed, stealth, and smackdown. They're not *as* good at killing as traditional fighter classes, although they aren't bad if you know how to work the class. They can be quiet stealthy, fast while sneaking, and if you don't mind slowly and methodically working your way through a dungeon, they're really useful, but they DO take a lot more planning than most classes. You can't really rely on armor and heavy-duty weapons. Then again, I don't have to carry a whole lot either, so it works out.

Same thing for straight rogues. If my wife's halfling runs straight into a fight, she tends to get wasted. But with a little planning and positioning, (doorways are my friend), and judicious use of the right dragonmark, I can funnel them in single file, and while I keep them focused on me, she stays stealthy and stabbity stab-stab-stab, they fall down go boom.

Neither is a good class for screaming and leaping, but if you're not in a rush, you can take down some serious opponents without a lot of damage. Or you sneak by them and ignore them entirely.

For the casual player, who doesn't want to think that much about their character, a straight monk is not the best choice. But if you understand what a monk's about and think about how to correctly use its abilities, it's a lot of fun to play.

Junts
05-23-2009, 07:08 PM
You could say the same about a group that needs a non-stacking moral bonus to attacks or a couple hp gained from monk healing.



WOAH! :eek:
are you on Thelanis?
ill give you 1 million plat and a bloodstone straight up for your transmuting handwraps...
oh... right... they dont exist..

but a noob can realize that.. ;)


they're right, walk of the sun stacks with everything, its a wonderful buff.