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View Full Version : So, let's try to come up with a better rogue capstone...



Azdraugnor
05-21-2009, 11:16 AM
Well, having looked at the current rogue capstone (listed here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173937)), I have to say that I'm underwhelmed. So, I figured I might as well toss out a suggestion of my own, and ask others to do the same.

Here we go:
Pierce Immunity
Prereq: Level 20 Rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You ignore a certain portion of enemy fortification against sneak attacks (perhaps 15-25%, I'm not sure what amount would be balanced). This also lets you score sneak attacks against creatures that are normally immune to sneak attacks, such as undead and oozes.

Or the alternate version:
Pierce Immunity
Prereq: Level 20 Rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You can expend an action boost to have your attacks ignore 35-50% (again, not sure what a good value would be) of enemy fortification for 20 seconds.

Let me know what you think about these, and suggest your own.

Angelus_dead
05-21-2009, 12:03 PM
Let me know what you think about these, and suggest your own.
Cheat Death
Prereq: Level 20 Rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You have a chance to self-rez after death, which decreases each use until you rest. All buffs are maintained, and there is no death penalty. In addition, all your attack rolls and saving throws automatically succeed on a roll of 19, and enemies automatically miss attacking you on a roll of 2.

Azdraugnor
05-21-2009, 12:11 PM
Cheat Death
Prereq: Level 20 Rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You have a chance to self-rez after death, which decreases each use until you rest. All buffs are maintained, and there is no death penalty. In addition, all your attack rolls and saving throws automatically succeed on a roll of 19, and enemies automatically miss attacking you on a roll of 2.
Hmm... an interesting new take on it. It still seems a tad lackluster compared to the other capstones, as it only gives a 5% greater chance to make saves and avoid attacks (and the save one is essentially useless unless your saves are truly terrible). Still, it would be a step in the right direction.

Overall, though, the biggest issue with this is that it gives you help when you least need it.

kamimitsu
05-21-2009, 12:17 PM
Cheat Death
Prereq: Level 20 Rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You have a chance to self-rez after death, which decreases each use until you rest. All buffs are maintained, and there is no death penalty. In addition, all your attack rolls and saving throws automatically succeed on a roll of 19, and enemies automatically miss attacking you on a roll of 2.

You know, I think that just the second half of that (auto save 19+ / auto miss 2-) is a GREAT capstone on it's own. It's not terribly overpowering (a 5% swing to saves and AC), and is in the spirit of roguedom. You'd have to change the name to "Dark Fortune" or something similar. I suspect, however, that it might be tough to code (re-adjusting the auto-miss on mobs, particularly).

Angelus_dead
05-21-2009, 01:03 PM
it only gives a 5% greater chance to make saves and avoid attacks
You are using addition when multiplication would be correct. 10% isn't 5% more than 5% any more than $10 is 5% more than $5. It's actually 100% more.

For example, if a mob has uber AC and it takes you 4 minutes to kill him because you're waiting to roll 20s, with this capstone you'd only need 2 minutes. That's +100% DPS.


I suspect, however, that it might be tough to code (re-adjusting the auto-miss on mobs, particularly).
Well, the only excuse for it to be hard to code is if they haven't really got any programmers attached to the DDO project... which is entirely possible.

Draccus
05-21-2009, 01:07 PM
Devastating Sneak Attacks
Prereq: Level 20 rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: A master rogue's sneak attacks are unparalleled and do an additional 2d6 damage for a total of 12d6.

Hide in Plain Sight (the real one)
Prereq: Level 20 rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: When in low light conditions, a rogue can hide even when in direct line of sight of an enemy if the rogue's Hide and MS skill checks beat his observer's Spot and Listen rolls.

Epic Dodge
Prereq: Level 20 rogue (should add Dodge as a prereq but no Capstones have feats as prereq's so I left it out)
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: When unencumbered and wearing light armor, a rogue is able to dodge the first attack made by an enemy in its attack sequence.

Precise Sneak Attacks
Prereq: Level 20 rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Master Rogues have determined vulnerable spots in all types of creatures and can do additional damage. Against creatures normally immune to sneak attacks (elementals, constructs, undead), a rogue can apply half his normal sneak attack damage to any attacks which qualify as sneak attacks.

Thanimal
05-21-2009, 01:12 PM
In my mind, the Rogue capstone competes with this:

1 free feat
+7 AC
+2 to all saves

This capstone is called Monk Splash. If you want to encourage an optimizing player to actually take the Capstone, then it has to be better than the above (for at least some build).

A chance of auto-rez seems like it could, in fact, compete, although frankly I think I'd rather have my +7 AC and reduce that chance of dying even more.

Since Monk Splash emphasizes the defensive side of the ledger, I think what I'd do with a capstone is further emphasize the DPS side of the equation, such as with the already suggested fortification busting or with a nice additional sneak attack to-hit and damage bonus.

An hugely over-powered idea would be to allow Sneak Attack damage to critical. But something like that could be toned down by having some percentage chance of sneak attack criticalling, like perhaps 10%? (I mean that on top of the critical. So if you have a 10% chance to critical and have this feat than 10% * 10% = 1% of your attacks will multiply your SA damage by your critical multiplier.) Naturally, 10% is totally made up and the right number might be much more or much less.

Borror0
05-21-2009, 01:17 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173705

Angelus_dead
05-21-2009, 01:18 PM
In my mind, the Rogue capstone competes with this:
1 free feat
+7 AC
+2 to all saves
This capstone is called Monk Splash.
To be more precise, monk1 isn't quite as good as you list it. There's a cost in skillpoints, and more importantly the wisdom to get +7 AC has a real cost in build points and body slots. (Conversely, monk1 is a little better than you list, because it teaches you 3 new weapon types)

Note that game designers have long since decided that the D&D rogue class is flawed by having no reason to train the 20th level. It would probably be better if DDO gave rogue 20 a useful feature in addition to whatever capstone it qualifies you for.


A chance of auto-rez seems like it could, in fact, compete
It only seems that way until you think about it enough to notice how easy it is for 20th level party members to cast a rez on you. In other game systems where some characters can cast a rez maybe once per hour, it would be valuable. But in DDO land where rezzes become commonplace at level 9-10, it's no good.


Since Monk Splash emphasizes the defensive side of the ledger, I think what I'd do with a capstone is further emphasize the DPS side of the equation,
But if you're trying to make something to attract people away from a defensive choice, wouldn't you naturally want a defensive feature? Since it's been established that that's what they're interested in.

One idea would be adding 50% intelligence mod to AC (although that's problematic as a capstone)

Azdraugnor
05-21-2009, 02:02 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173705
Ah, I didn't see that thread when I searched for pre-existing threads about this. When I get home from work, I'll quote all of the ideas from this thread over to that one.

Thanimal
05-21-2009, 02:08 PM
But if you're trying to make something to attract people away from a defensive choice, wouldn't you naturally want a defensive feature? Since it's been established that that's what they're interested in.

Lots of good points there A_D, but I disagree with this one. I think the route to success from a game design standpoint is to offer a reason to do something different. If you *directly* compete with the Monk splash benefits, then one will simply be better than the other, and everyone will use the better one. If you instead say "You'll give up defenses to go this route, but your offensive output will be non-trivially better," then both can remain attractive, because they accomplish different (but also useful) goals.