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Arkat
05-17-2009, 05:07 PM
I just made a Human Paladin and I'm going to keep him Pure.

Before I have him eat any tomes or manuals I'd like to know if it'd be worth spending ranks on UMD for him? I don't plan on using any loot with +X to UMD skill (although I could see myself making a +5 or +6 to Charisma Skills Shroud Item).

I guess what I'm asking is should I really try to shoot for using Heal Scrolls (and others) reliably?

jmonty
05-17-2009, 05:10 PM
i haven't made a umd character yet but i think the check on heal scrolls is 32.

to that end i have considered doing the 2/14 rogue pally split but haven't gotten around to it. it is an older concept around here and i bet there are alot of threads on it. that way you could have umd, evasion, intimidate and maybe enough trap monkey skills.

Arkat
05-17-2009, 05:15 PM
Thanks anyway jmonty but please re-read the first sentence of my first post. :)

Do'Urden
05-17-2009, 05:21 PM
i haven't made a umd character yet but i think the check on heal scrolls is 32.

The UMD check for Heal scrolls is 40

Comfortably
05-17-2009, 05:30 PM
UMD is awesome on any toon.

Monkey_Archer
05-17-2009, 05:36 PM
I think it depends on your charisma..

Its definatly possible to get it high enough.. my wiz (starting cha 12) has 32 umd atm with skill focus feat, cartouche and shroud item.
Not quite enough for reliable heal scrolls.. but with titan gloves, next mod it will be.
On a high cha paladin heal scrolls should be easy(even if you cant make room for a cartouche/gloves)

Gornn
05-17-2009, 05:37 PM
Ark, on my pally I did a negative pos pos necklace. +300 sp, +6 wis, +5 cha skills.

Im sure there's a way to get a pally up to heal scroll usage going pure, but it looks pretty tough to me.

What skills would you take instead?

I think you'll be able to reliably use raise dead scrolls though and that'll be nice.

On the new TWF pally I'm rolling, (human) im going to give him UMD. If that helps.

Arkat
05-17-2009, 05:37 PM
UMD is awesome on any toon.

I know UMD is nice (my Bard uses it all the time) but I was hoping for some more in-depth analysis than that. :)

Do'Urden
05-17-2009, 05:38 PM
If you max out UMD for a pure Human Paladin, you will have the following at Level 20

Ranks: 11.5
CHA modifier: typical range of 5 - 8 depending on your starting stats and gear
Greater Heroism: 4
CHA skills item: up to 6
Human Versatility (not a trivial AP spend for a Paladin): 1 - 4
UMD Item: 0 - 5
Head of Good Fortune / VoTM: 1 - 2
Inspire Competence: 2
Feat: not likely depending on your build

So the potential at end game is around 42.5 with situational buffs and raid loot (enough for no-fail Heal scroll casting). A more realistic target is around 30 which will only get you to 50% chance to cast a Heal scroll. Personally, I like UMD on my pure Human Paladin although I can only self-buff to 26.5 atm (don't have the gear yet).

Monkey_Archer
05-17-2009, 05:41 PM
I know UMD is nice (my Bard uses it all the time) but I was hoping for some more in-depth analysis than that. :)

lvl 20:

11 base
2 hogf
3 skill focus umd
5 titan gloves
6 shroud item
4 gh
---
31
+ your charisma modifier

Arkat
05-17-2009, 05:43 PM
Ark, on my pally I did a negative pos pos necklace. +300 sp, +6 wis, +5 cha skills.

Im sure there's a way to get a pally up to heal scroll usage going pure, but it looks pretty tough to me.

What skills would you take instead?

I think you'll be able to reliably use raise dead scrolls though and that'll be nice.

On the new TWF pally I'm rolling, (human) im going to give him UMD. If that helps.

Hmmm...thanks Gornn, that's kinda what I'm looking for. Currently my Pally has an 8 Int. I have a +2 Int tome for him which will bring him up to 10. That means I'll have 3 skill points to spend at each level. I was going to spend my points on Jump (two points for each rank cuz it's a cross class skill) and Diplomacy (one point for each rank).

To me Jump is a VERY important skill and of the Paladin class skills, I thought Diplomacy was the most useful.

Arkat
05-17-2009, 05:49 PM
lvl 20:

11 base
2 hogf - Going to be wearing a Bloodstone
3 skill focus umd - not going to use a feat for this
5 titan gloves - not going to use raid loot for UMD, I hate grinding for it and instead I'm going to be using the Ethereal gloves.
6 shroud item
4 gh
---
31
+ your charisma modifier

Thanks Monkey but using those items/feat means three things to me - switching out items constantly which I HATE to do, grinding for those gloves (I hate grinding for 1 specific item), and spending a feat that could better be used to augment my combat abilities.

Monkey_Archer
05-17-2009, 05:57 PM
Thanks Monkey but using thpose items/feat means three things to me - switching out items constantly which I HATE to do, grinding for those gloves (I hate grinding for 1 specific item), and spending a feat that could better be used to augment my combat abilities.

IMO any UMD above 30 is worth carrying heal scrolls. Its just faster then drinking pots/wands even if you fail half the time.

11 base
6 shroud
4 gh
9 cha
---
30

I usually keep my cartouche and skill boost beside my heal scrolls on hotbar. On a paladin i think it could work... LOH for emergencies, cartouche swapping when you have time.

Arkat
05-17-2009, 05:58 PM
IMO any UMD above 30 is worth carrying heal scrolls. Its just faster then drinking pots/wands even if you fail half the time.

11 base
6 shroud
4 gh
9 cha
---
30

I usually keep my cartouche and skill boost beside my heal scrolls on hotbar. On a paladin i think it could work... LOH for emergencies, cartouche swapping when you have time.

Hmmm...now that could work....

Lifespawn
05-17-2009, 06:32 PM
Hmmm...thanks Gornn, that's kinda what I'm looking for. Currently my Pally has an 8 Int. I have a +2 Int tome for him which will bring him up to 10. That means I'll have 3 skill points to spend at each level. I was going to spend my points on Jump (two points for each rank cuz it's a cross class skill) and Diplomacy (one point for each rank).

To me Jump is a VERY important skill and of the Paladin class skills, I thought Diplomacy was the most useful.

you can only put a half point into jump once you reach 3 + your lvl in .5's .5 in jump .5 in balance and 1 in diplo go for it.

Gornn
05-17-2009, 06:46 PM
Hmmm...thanks Gornn, that's kinda what I'm looking for. Currently my Pally has an 8 Int. I have a +2 Int tome for him which will bring him up to 10. That means I'll have 3 skill points to spend at each level. I was going to spend my points on Jump (two points for each rank cuz it's a cross class skill) and Diplomacy (one point for each rank).

To me Jump is a VERY important skill and of the Paladin class skills, I thought Diplomacy was the most useful.

I love jump too. I miss it on my dwarven pally, soooooo much. Have rogue levels, but not enough of them to max out jump.

Remember though, assuming you max out jump at level one (4 skill points, two ranks) you will only ever be able to add .5 ranks per level, or 1 skill point. So with the int tome (great call on 8 int, I'm doing the same thing on my guy. I did Wis 8 and Int 8) you'll get 3 skill points per level and you can potentially max out 3 skills.

Jump .5
Umd .5
Diplo 1

The only time you can add 2 points to get 1 rank is if you possess levels in a class that has the skill as class, but you're raising a class that doesn't have it.

More simply: My pally is 14 pally/2 rogue. His UMD is maxed out at 19 ranks. Because I have the rogue levels I can spend my two skill points per level to get 1 rank of UMD.

However, my pure pally, because he won't have any UMD as class, can only ever raise a maxed out skill non-class skill by .5.

So you can easily do Jump, Diplo, and UMD.

Honestly, as a Human you'll have a great charisma. I'd say UMD is worth it. And fitting the delera's necklace into a pally build isn't as hard as you'd think, if you get some good SoS luck.

-G

Comfortably
05-17-2009, 07:20 PM
There is a paladin on my sever, forum name Junts who has a 38UMD (If I remember right...) perhaps he can shed some light on it for you on how he did it.

Arkat
05-17-2009, 07:28 PM
Ok, thanks guys. I just re-rolled my pally and spent the beginning skill points on UMD. I bumped my Int up by 3 (so I can get Combat Expertise as well as the extra skill point) and dropped my Strength by 1. If I never find a +3 Str manual, my Str will be stuck at 29 however. :(

I decided to put skill points into Jump, Intimidate, UMD and possibly Balance/Diplo with leftover skill points.

I'm shooting for a +30 UMD Skill. I've been doing some re-thinking on the Skill Focus: UMD feat. I just might drop Force of Personality for it. I'll have to see.

Thanks again all.

Mhykke
05-17-2009, 07:38 PM
I've been doing some re-thinking on the Skill Focus: UMD feat. I just might drop Force of Personality for it. I'll have to see.

Thanks again all.

You won't need FoP on a paladin.

Bilger
05-17-2009, 07:42 PM
It is possible my pali at 16 has a 37.5 umd or 35.5 self. That's buffed with head and persuasion helm(+3 char skills).
has 26 char
9.5 into ranks
8 char bonus
6 shroud
4 gh
3 feat
30.5 no head or helm
So when needed can easily hit heal scrolls at 2+

Riorik
05-17-2009, 08:27 PM
IMO any UMD above 30 is worth carrying heal scrolls. Its just faster then drinking pots/wands even if you fail half the time.

11 base
6 shroud
4 gh
9 cha
---
30

I usually keep my cartouche and skill boost beside my heal scrolls on hotbar. On a paladin i think it could work... LOH for emergencies, cartouche swapping when you have time.

I'd call this the best answer so far although most said something pretty close to this. Heal has so many other beneficial effects (removal of lots of bad things) which although it's not cheap to use scrolls, could save you some inventory space in that you only need to manage a single stack rather than a wand of this, that, and something else.


You won't need FoP on a paladin.

I think mostly this is true. I've always set a target of an unbuffed +25 (willpower is usually lowest for me) as my target so that mostly I make EVERY save except for the ubiquitous "1" even against anti-magic (beholders).

Inspire
05-17-2009, 08:42 PM
I think my paladin Atlantean has a very usable UMD the breakdown is;

9.5 Ranks
8 Charisma Mod(26)
5 Crafted(Concoordiant Opposisition)
5 Seven Finger
2 Head of Good Fortune
==========
29 Unbuffed

4 Greater Heroism
2 Human Versitility
==========
35 Self Buffed


Which isnt the greatest, but its fine for Teleport/ Raise Dead/ Fire Shield/ and Heal.

Inspire
05-17-2009, 08:46 PM
It is possible my pali at 16 has a 37.5 umd. That's buffed with head and persuasion helm(+3 char skills).
has 26 char
9.5 into ranks
13 char bonus
6 shroud
4 gh

32.5 no head or helm
So when needed can easily hit heal scrolls at 2+

13 Charisma Bonus = 36 Charisma on your Paladin, which IMO is over kill.

valorik
05-17-2009, 08:52 PM
my paladin has a 26 charisma and umds heal scrolls with a high sucess rate

+8 cha
+9 ranks
+3 cartouche ( I jsut swap it on)
+6 shroud
+4 gh
+2 head
32 wihcich is a standing 65% chance, and I have 5 uses of human versatility bringing me to 80% in mod 9 picking up sf umd which means no fail in mod 9

Bilger
05-17-2009, 09:08 PM
13 Charisma Bonus = 36 Charisma on your Paladin, which IMO is over kill.

ooops not 13 srry 26 char atm lol
:o

Inspire
05-17-2009, 09:15 PM
ooops not 13 srry 26 char atm lol
:o

Hehe, the first 10 atribute points in any stat are negative(-5 to 0) I think thats where yo were confused, it increases when you hit 12+ in any stat.

Bilger
05-17-2009, 09:17 PM
Hehe, the first 10 atribute points in any stat are negative(-5 to 0) I think thats where yo were confused, it increases when you hit 12+ in any stat.
Yea I know what did and I know that not a noob!!:D:p

Inspire
05-17-2009, 09:21 PM
Yea I know what did and I know that not a noob!!:D:p

I know your not, my explaination was for the children in the audience.

Perhaps a grammer noob though? :D J/k

Bilger
05-17-2009, 09:35 PM
I know your not, my explaination was for the children in the audience.

Perhaps a grammer noob though? :D J/k

LOL you gots thats rights no englishes majors heres!!:D

SteeleTrueheart
05-17-2009, 09:38 PM
As others have suggested, don't forget Human Versatility. I find that you need to spend 7AP to get to the more juicy and useful paladin enhancements and HV just fills in that gap of 1 ap to get to 7.

Having an extra 2 damage or AC or skills when you need them is quite nice too. I especially love hitting the damage boost just before entering a fight/portal beating and the skill boost when I am standing around trying to UMD a teleport somewhere.

spartin
05-17-2009, 10:42 PM
i know you dont want to grind for raid loot, but the voice of the master (+1 luck) and golden cartouch arnt much of a grind, adding +4 to your umd.
at L16
9 base
1 VotM
3 Cartouch (sp?)
4 gh
4 HV
5 shroud (i think you said you may do this)
____
26 + charisma mod
enough to raise and teleport with reasonable reliability, with no (IMO) raid loot

Arkat
05-18-2009, 09:32 AM
I don't mind Voice of the Master or Cartouche. Both come from Delera's and are very easy to get.

One question though. Aren't they both Trinkets such that I can only use one at a time?

Comfortably
05-18-2009, 09:35 AM
I don't mind Voice of the Master or Cartouche. Both come from Delera's and are very easy to get.

One question though. Aren't they both Trinkets such that I can only use one at a time?

The voice is a trinket, the Cartouche is a necklace, so you could wear both at the same time.

prophet1
05-18-2009, 09:54 AM
ok i tried both i have 16 lvl pally with umd its hard to get that high and then u get the arcane spell failure which suks , so u get empowered healing use titan glloves what ever you can mod heal for about 100 250 crit if u take the + 40% enhancement if u use a scroll because u don t get the wands + the mages get only get 100 per scroll give or take the person heal enhance also if u gonna go heal pally take the aura gets u +n 9 con or you will never get a spell off in battle but what needs to be done is a 5 lvl pally heal spell and the ability for pallys to use cleric scrolls without umd check its a god thing not a magic thing and even ifs its 1/2 the castin lvl per lvl still even out so umd is always good but unnessary for a pally the armor completly makes spell casting a pain , wands aren t really that good or dps as well as a pally so , my pally has a 26 umd unbuffed but still don t really use it spell failure is to high hope that made sense sry for rantin