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Omega2K
05-08-2009, 01:01 PM
Ranged Combat has been deficient for a very long time. If you ask me, the last time it was really good was back in Beta when you could shoot things as fast as you could click your mouse button. Unfortunately, this was game unbalancing, and normal Melee and Caster Characters picked up bows and could gun down any group of Monsters before they could even reach the Party. But since that was fixed, Ranged Combat has needed many improvements for a long time:

Number of Ranged Attacks (Rate of Fire) should be scaled by BAB (Base Attack Bonus) as Melee Attacks are

Multi-shot as a Stance similar to Power Attack

Magical Armor Effects like Crippling, Destruction, etc. should affect Ranged Weapons too

Since we were not given our dues on the items above, I have another idea: how about we increase the Critical Hit Rate of Ranged Weapons most of which Critical on a Roll of 20 only. This benefit should affect Rangers and Fighters that specialize in Ranged Combat (yes, that argument was made before and I agree that Fighters need their due as well). Here is the Action Point Enhancement I propose:

Improved Critical Ranged I

Cost: 4 Action Points

Prerequisites:
Class Levels: Ranger 16 or Fighter 16
*AND*
Feats: Shot on the Run *AND* Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons

Effect: Adds 10% to Critical Threat Range for Ranged Weapons and stacks with the Feat Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons (Bows and Crossbows become 17-20, Great Crossbows and Repeaters become 15-20, etc.)

Goldeneye
05-08-2009, 01:10 PM
I really like that idea - might make ranged worthwhile

Many Shot stance might be a little ridiculous, so how about mixing it with a penalty (-5 ATT, or something like that)

otherwise, the imp crit would make a big difference, since ranged att is so slow right now, that the crit range is fairly poor

Thelmallen
05-08-2009, 03:18 PM
Doesn't manyshot already come with a -4 or -5 on to-hit?

Turial
05-08-2009, 03:21 PM
Doesn't manyshot already come with a -4 or -5 on to-hit?

Not in DDO. In pnp it does have a penalty associated with the number of arrows fired.

Turial
05-08-2009, 03:24 PM
....
Improved Critical Ranged I

Cost: 4 Action Points

Prerequisites:
Class Levels: Ranger 16 or Fighter 16
*AND*
Feats: Shot on the Run *AND* Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons

Effect: Adds 10% to Critical Threat Range for Ranged Weapons and stacks with the Feat Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons (Bows and Crossbows become 17-20, Great Crossbows and Repeaters become 15-20, etc.)

Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Shot on the Run, IC:Ranged....

For a total investment of 5 feats, of which 3 are pretty bad feats, I would expect something more. Plus repeaters do not need the improvement as much as other forms of ranged combat.

rimble
05-08-2009, 03:30 PM
No, fiddling with crit ranges beyond the normal Improved Critical is a bad idea. Don't fiddle with inherent weapon crit ranges, and don't introduce crit range enhancements (though the clicky based attacks with higher crit ranges isn't so bad). Took them some time but they figured both of those out (Barbarians Crit Rage going away). Fix ranged some other way.

Regardless, as presented this is another ranged character class restricting kick in the balls (like the Ranger capstone)...I think such ideas are bad too. Feat requirements okay, BaB requirements okay, stat requirements okay...but not classes.

Jay203
05-08-2009, 04:04 PM
and we need to fix rangers so they HAVE TO choose a path (twf or ranged, NOT both) >_>

Omega2K
05-08-2009, 04:18 PM
Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Shot on the Run, IC:Ranged....

For a total investment of 5 feats, of which 3 are pretty bad feats, I would expect something more. Plus repeaters do not need the improvement as much as other forms of ranged combat.

The Improved Critical Ranged I Enhancement needs to be restricted to those that are devoted to Ranged Combat. That is why I recommended all those Feats be required (and not just Feats that are free for Rangers either). Also I am only talking about adjusting the Critcal Threat Range and not the Multiplier... Repeaters only have a Critical Multiplier of 2X so adding another 10% chance that it will occur should not be major. Something has to be done to scale up Ranged Damage as the Monsters have obscene amounts of Hit Points - it should not take 5 minutes to kill one Devil with Range Combat.


No, fiddling with crit ranges beyond the normal Improved Critical is a bad idea. Don't fiddle with inherent weapon crit ranges, and don't introduce crit range enhancements (though the clicky based attacks with higher crit ranges isn't so bad). Took them some time but they figured both of those out (Barbarians Crit Rage going away). Fix ranged some other way.

Regardless, as presented this is another ranged character class restricting kick in the balls (like the Ranger capstone)...I think such ideas are bad too. Feat requirements okay, BaB requirements okay, stat requirements okay...but not classes.

Messing with Monsters Hit Points was a bad idea too. The reason why Barbarian Critical Rage failed is because there are tonnes of Melee Attacks in a short period of time - this is not true for Ranged Combat.

I like the Class restriction otherwise everyone may choose to take this Enhancement. This is only for Characters dedicated to Ranged Combat.

Aesop
05-08-2009, 04:36 PM
fix the style not put a band aid on it.


This does not mean Many Shot in its current form as a stance.

This means Balance the good and bad for ALL classes to have the ability to use ranged combat effectively. Not just Ranger. Not just Fighter. ALL classes.


I guess I will just toss therse back out there

Aesop


DDO Ranged Combat

OK so the numbers show a distinct lack of DPS in the Ranged department. This is a large contributing factor to making Ranged combat limited in application. In order to make Ranged viable we need to increase its base DPS and its Specialized DPS significantly without overpowering it.

The fun part is in PnP Ranged has as much if not more potential to do damage than single weapon combat does and the only thing that really balances that (in the Core rules) is that Ranged attacks don't have use of the Power Attack Feat and the limitation on the Strength output of the Bow they are using. With Rapid Shot in PnP Archers effectively fire as fast as a hasted single weapon fighter.

Here the feeling is that Ranged would be overpowered if they attack as fast as Melee because they have little risk of direct melee attack. Although in current end game this concern is fairly unfounded as all NPCs but animals have a ranged attack and several of the Mobs have accelerated movement or outright teleportation to catch up with the Archer. A "simple" AI fix to help alleviate the kiting issue would be to have Mobs shoot there ranged weapons while moving towards their intended target.

The simplest way to improve Ranged DPS is to increase the RoA (Rate of Attack). If nothing else of the suggestions the player base have made regarding this issue are taken this one needs to be implemented. Right now we attack slower with ranged weapons than with a single melee weapon of any variety (including the slowest of the slow the Falchion). If we spend TWO Feats to take Rapid Shot (Rapid Shot has the requirement to take Point Blank Shot unless you are a second level Ranger) we are still firing slower than the slowest Melee weapon.



Changes: Important (1)
1. Improve Mob AI to use Ranged Attacks while approaching
2. Increase Bow RoA to reasonable levels (I’m thinking 80-90% the RoA of Single Weapon Melee)
3. Many Shot needs a change
a. Single volley with a 6-10 second Cooldown and to hit penalties
b. Stance with RoA reduction and associated penalties
c. A Stance that fires a single Many Shot volley every 10 sec within a normal attack chain






Ranged Combat Suggestions

Ranged Combat Rebalancing: Ranged Combat feels like an afterthought that is the bastard stepchild of an abusive alcoholic schizophrenic. It still needs a little love but it doesn't seem to get any at home. So put the stepparent on Prozac and let’s get by this.

a. RoA: Ranged RoA is the lowest of all combat styles. This was originally due to the limited exposure to damage that a ranged attacker experiences. Improving the AI of Mobs to compensate for this benefit would be a better solution than the currently neutered form of the ranged combat style. This does not mean that a RoA should equal or exceed the RoA of Melee combat (though it does in PnP). However ranged combat as it stands is too far behind melee. This affects both DPS and Stat Damage output of ranged attackers too significantly relative to their Melee counter parts.
1. Change the base RoA of Ranged attacks to 60% that of Sword and Shield Melee (hence forth with regard to Ranged RoA referred to as Melee). (If melee swings 100 times in a minute then Archers and thrown weapons should fire off 60 shots without any modifiers)

2. Rapid Shot should increase the RoA to 75% that of Melee

3. The Feat Improved Rapid Shot should be implemented to give an additional 10% bringing Ranged to 85% the RoA of Melee

4. Many Shot is either too powerful or not powerful enough a more balanced approach would be better to the all or nothing adaptation it currently is.
4a. Many Shot could be changed to a Stance with the following conditions and modifiers.
a. Many Shot cannot be used in conjunction with Rapid Shot or Improved Rapid Shot thus reducing the RoA back down to 60% Melee.
b. Number of Arrows used should be selectable with limitations by BAB. (2 at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, and 4 at BAB 16)
c. each arrow could give a cumulative penalty. I suggest -2 to hit for the first additional arrow and -1 for each beyond that and a RoA penalty of -5% per additional arrow thus reducing the RoA of a Many Shot to 45% at BAB 16 with 4 Arrows flying and a -4 to hit penalty. (Note: In PnP Many Shot is a Standard Action which means it can only be fired once per round and comes with a penalty of -8 for firing 4 arrows at the same time. While this (sorta) works in PnP in a Real Time MMO the penalty would be slightly out of balance with the rest of combat to have the RoA reduced to 20% melee)
4b. Alternately Many Shot could take the form of a single volley attack with a 10+ Second Cooldown
4c. A Stance that fires a single Many Shot volley every 10 sec within a normal attack chain



b. Ammunition: Ranged needs a better selection of Ammunition.
1. Basic Elemental types should be made available to purchase. (Flaming, Frost, Acid and Shock)

2. From the SRD
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. I would like this translated into all normal ammo being 10% returning and Masterwork and magic being 15%(or more) returning.

Range: Range and distance seems a bit off right now. These suggestions would give a little more balance to the system and give more options of development in the future.

1. Please increase the Range increments. As it stands now, Point Blank Shot only kicks in at a range almost being able to swing a sword at the critter I'm attacking. 30 ft seems much closer to 10.

2. Also add in Range Increments. Even if it is only 5 of them with the ranges being touch, short, medium, long and extreme. Throwing a hammer from across the valley shouldn't hit as effectively as an Arrow from 10 ft. This brings me to the next part

3. Penalties. Have penalties kick in beyond medium range. -2 for long range and -4 for extreme. Allow Point Blank range to be equivalent to the Short Range category.

4. Implement Far Shot as a Feat. Have Far Shot increase the effective range of Point Blank Shot to Medium and decrease penalties by 2. (Note let this also affect Sneak Attack range)

Bow Strength: This is an important change. I understand that when first starting it appeared that the Ranger Class needed a little love... and they might have. I also understand that in an environment where crafting was not existent that requiring Composite bows that match your characters strength could get problematic. However making Archery a Ranger only ability is a bad bad thing. If you needed to, just add Bow Strength to Point Blank Shot and give the Bow Strength to rangers anyway (since they bypass PBS and go straight on to Rapid Shot). Fighters and other range centric characters shouldn't be required to splash Ranger to make an effective archer.

Apparently this is happening as a Feat, so yay us. Although the Prerequisites seem a little too high, hopefully they will reconsider those before implementation.

Additional Ranged Feat:

Over Draw: Think Power Attack for Ranged Combat. You are able to squeeze a little more power out of your bows but your accuracy suffers for it. You take a -3 penalty to your attacks but gain a +3 to your damage with a bow.

Ranged Pin: This Shot acts as a single target Web Effect pinning the target’s foot to the ground. He struggles to break free with a Strength Check.

Aesop
05-08-2009, 04:46 PM
I like the Class restriction otherwise everyone may choose to take this Enhancement. This is only for Characters dedicated to Ranged Combat.


Class restrictions are a great way to pidgeon hole characters. Let the people build the characters the way they want to. If they take a ton of ranged feats then they are ranged spec'd saying that only Rangers or only Fighters can be ranged characters undermines the very premise of creativity in character building

Aesop

rimble
05-08-2009, 04:47 PM
Messing with Monsters Hit Points was a bad idea too. The reason why Barbarian Critical Rage failed is because there are tonnes of Melee Attacks in a short period of time - this is not true for Ranged Combat.

Plenty of Ranged Barbarians had a field day with their improved crit range. It's a bad idea.


I like the Class restriction otherwise everyone may choose to take this Enhancement. This is only for Characters dedicated to Ranged Combat.

Your dedication to ranged combat should be determined other ways, like Feats. What about being a Fighter or Ranger naturally makes you more inclined toward ranged combat? There is no reason to enforce arbitrary class affinities like that.