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redraider
05-08-2009, 07:50 AM
12/2/6 Pali/rog/rgr vs. 12/2/6 Ftr/rog/rgr

What are the relative merits of either? I am a "evasion is a must" guy so the 2 lvls of rog are a must as I also want to max umd and intim.

I want the six lvls of Rgr for the feats - twf, itf, manyshot, autorecover, and of course the tempest enhancement.

The question is 12 lvls of Pali vs. 12 Lvls of Ftr

Thrudh
05-08-2009, 08:09 AM
Both are good... 12 Fighter levels equals 7 extra feats... total of 14 feats. Nice since you'll want the 3 feats for Ranger Tempest... Paladin will be feat starved.. only 7 total feats...

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
GTWF
Improved Crit: Pierce or Slash
Toughness

Leaving one feat left over (and you'll probably want Extend... or Power Attack... or Khopesh)

Compare the respective PrEs for fighter and paladin to see which one you like better...

Paladins do get the CHA bonus to saves... That will help since you want evasion. Evasion without a good Reflex save isn't worth much (high 20s, low 30s is what you should shoot for as a minimum at 16)

Leyoni
05-08-2009, 08:13 AM
I went R6/P12/M2 using monk for the evasion and WIS bonus to AC.

Real question is -- what are your AC plans? If AC is top on your list then you go paladin and monk and ignore the intimidate feat.

If AC is not top of your list then you go fighter and monk gaining the extra feats from the fighter class. In this situation you don't need rogue for access to intimidate and you gain two extra feats from monk as well.

However, if you are taking R6 for the TWF line then AC should be on the top of your list over intimidate. I'm not big on the UMD line. But, if that is more important than AC then you take rogue instead of monk. Doing that sacrifices some AC (and who knows, in the new mod AC may be moot again) -- potentially a lot of AC.

Question then becomes, can you compensate with a shield? If you do that then why invest in the TWF line?

As a utility character you could put a lot into AC figuring TWF as your primary role and also invest in UMD and intimidate (figuring intimitank as a secondary role). Some people like that sort of thing (why a lot seem to invest in UMD IMO).

I'd be tempted to run the numbers on UMD as a cross-class skill to see if I didn't get high enough to do what I really wanted to do without taking rogue levels (and taking monk instead).

I haven't been on the forums in a long while tho so don't know if the new mod nerfs the monk splashes.

Geonis
05-08-2009, 08:33 AM
A well built Pally 18/Monk 2 is going to have the same 10% attack speed bonus as the Tempest Ranger (Zeal), going to have Evasion, going to have better saves, and probably better AC as the Pal/Rog/Rgr above.

Not to mention the Pally/Monk doesn't need to worry about weapon(s) to bypass raid boss DR, just bring your Holy Sword (who doesn't like free +5 Holy Burst weapon(s) that counts as silver and cold iron?).

Combine this with the KoC enhancements coming in MOD 9, and this character will be pretty close to the Tempest Ranger on DPS, about the same AC, will have more HPs, better saves, better UMD (high Cha), better burst DPS (smites and DS), and will just be all around cooler than the cookie cutter Rgr 18/Rog 1/Mnk 1. :D

LargeMarge
05-08-2009, 09:44 AM
What are you going for?

AC?
DPS?
UMD?

How do you want to play this build?

Also...if you go 12 Paly...then your ability scores will be a little more spread out (Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha). Where-as with 12 Ftr you can concentrate on Str, Con, and Dex.

redraider
05-08-2009, 10:54 AM
What are you going for?

AC?
DPS?
UMD?

How do you want to play this build?

Also...if you go 12 Paly...then your ability scores will be a little more spread out (Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha). Where-as with 12 Ftr you can concentrate on Str, Con, and Dex.


Yes yes and yes and intim too. I am looking at an overall toon rather than a max for any one thing. He wont have max dps like a pure barb ro kensai. He wont have max ac like an exploiter (have this build and hate him). I want to everything well, but understand I won't be a max toon.

I am looking for max intim, max umd, good dps, and mid 60's ac.

maddmatt70
05-08-2009, 12:06 PM
I am leveling up a 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue right now. I am having blast. Its a halfling and gets a fair amount of sneak damage as well.. That is my vote..

Thelmallen
05-08-2009, 12:34 PM
My main character is a pal8(12)/rgr6/rog2 and it is by far my favorite character. I agree with the posts that the pal18/mon2 is a very viable build, likely similar DPS but you will lose out a lot skill points and any rogue skills. The benefits over fighter are fear immunity, disease immunity (but you can get both of these from existential stalemate shroud item), LoH, exalted smite, divine might, divine sacrifice, etc. My character is pretty feat-starved, however and enhancements are pretty tight as well. I don't regret not going pal/monk but being able to take Kensai II from the fighter is a very interesting proposition. At the end of the day, I think it comes down to flavor. I like the paladin class a lot and wouldn't trade this character for anything.

Leyoni
05-08-2009, 01:00 PM
I am looking for max intim, max umd, good dps, and mid 60's ac.

Then build whichever flavor you want provided you take at least 1 level of rogue for access to UMD. Mid-60's and "good" DPS are easy enough to achieve on just about any build.

IMO, if this is where you're head is at on this character then the choice is the greater flexibility of the fighter/ranger/rogue and the extra feats you will pick up or the improved saves of the paladin/ranger/rogue. Either will get you to the AC and DPS you are looking for.

Stat wise it will be tight. WIS will be a dump stat. INT can't be a total dump stat because for most levels you will be buying UMD and intimidate as cross-class skills. Assuming you put skill points nowhere else you're going to need at least 4 per level (or be able to compensate with a huge boost from rogue at just the right time). IIRC that means you're going to need an INT of 14 unless the character is human.

You won't really have "max" UMD or intimidate because you can't afford to max out CHA. Or, if you do then you're going to give up a lot in STR, DEX and CON -- all three of which will be needed in abundance for a non-min/max build. So, "max" in this context really just means buying up the most skill points that you can for your level. Still gets you some really high numbers (boosted by gear). Question is, do you really need that much to do what you want? If you're not an intimitank (and it doesn't look like you will be, not really) then the intimidate isn't really that important in any case. And, UMD may be high enough w/o taking it to the full max skill point level.

The problem with having a bit of everything is that the character does nothing particularly well. That works out fine if you have a steady group or guild to adventure with. It doesn't work so well if you need to build a reputation with the character in order to PUG successfully.

LastNameRage
05-09-2009, 03:07 AM
Why not just go monster?, I rolled up a 12/6/2 Fighter/Ranger/Rogue a few months ago, he is a beast. Dwarf, not geared up but you can hit everything you want out of the build when he is. After I got him to about 15 "the monster" came out and I realized that it was a substantially easier build to gear up (especailly ac wise), but I am keeping him regardless...he is what he is and I like what he is.

Mike_Fun_Spot
05-10-2009, 04:56 AM
This game has become as cookie cutter as the rest of them it seems :(, both builds are obviously..... but it is the choice between fighter or paladin, i guess it's the age old question.... not really.

redraider
05-10-2009, 09:19 AM
This game has become as cookie cutter as the rest of them it seems :(, both builds are obviously..... but it is the choice between fighter or paladin, i guess it's the age old question.... not really.

This must be code for something, I'm just not sure what... :confused: