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Yurtrus
05-06-2009, 08:29 AM
Hello all,

Do to recent changes in the game and mod 9 coming soon ( lol ) I was wondering if it was time to rid my spell book of cloudkill and go for something else ( please indicate what spells I might consider and why ) as a caster. What do you all think.. Let me know..

Just wanna some feedback on this.. thanks!

GovtMule
05-06-2009, 08:43 AM
I can't give you any feedback until I see for myself. However, I have no intention of dumping it unless its rendered completely impotent.

'Course I'm one of those that don't see the WoP nerf as all that earth shattering.

Fennario
05-06-2009, 08:49 AM
It does additional acid damage in mod 9. I kind of like it better than before actually. However, mobs that are immune to poison are also immune to the acid damage. But you never cast it on poison immune mobs before so no change there.

Belwaar
05-06-2009, 08:57 AM
So, question: b/c of the WOP nerf, does that also mean that when mobs hit 0 Con due to poison damage w/ CK, that they'll just be paralyzed and die with the additional acid damage?

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 09:04 AM
So, question: b/c of the WOP nerf, does that also mean that when mobs hit 0 Con due to poison damage w/ CK, that they'll just be paralyzed and die with the additional acid damage?

This might have been true if metamagic feats and acid enhancements worked with the spell.

They don't.

I.E. Cloudkill is gimp, and should be renamed Cloudfail.

GovtMule
05-06-2009, 09:09 AM
So, question: b/c of the WOP nerf, does that also mean that when mobs hit 0 Con due to poison damage w/ CK, that they'll just be paralyzed and die with the additional acid damage?

That's what I'm assuming is going to be the case.

And if it doesn't kill 'em, I further assume, a simple magic missle would finish the job.

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 09:11 AM
That's what I'm assuming is going to be the case.

And if it doesn't kill 'em, I further assume, a simple magic missle would finish the job.

Incorrect. Late-game monsters have >2000 hit points tacked on arbitrarily above and beyond those granted by their constitution scores and hit dice.

Kalanth
05-06-2009, 09:22 AM
Not worried about the acid damage not killing the enemies as I would hope that my party could take down the enemy when they are recieving the auto crits for 0 con. Cloudkill and Firewall, or Cloudkill and Acid Cloud should still be usefull.

MrWizard
05-06-2009, 09:28 AM
nice con damage, concealment, acid damage....with longer lasting solid fog or shorter lasting acid fog...sounds good. Stun them for six seconds and allow autocrits...

I imagine sitting in it would cause another 6 second stun too as it ticks off...who knows.

Im a keeping it.

I am sure the whole mod 9 is immune to poison, but who knows.

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 09:33 AM
There are better spells to have than cloudkill, especially since nearly all of the monsters in Mod 9 will be immune to poison.

I recommend Hold Monster if you don't already have it.

As previously stated, it's more like cloudfail than cloudkill.

Issip
05-06-2009, 09:33 AM
So, question: b/c of the WOP nerf, does that also mean that when mobs hit 0 Con due to poison damage w/ CK, that they'll just be paralyzed and die with the additional acid damage?

I didn't play on Lamania but I as I understand it the mobs will not be paralyzed any more than they are when they hit 0 str currently. They can still run around and attack - in addition they will regenerate their con over time taking away the autocrit if they leave the cloud.

I'm not sure if hitting 0 con even prevents them from casting spells (as hitting 0 str or dex does currently) - if it doesn't prevent spell casting then there's not much use in it and str/dex damage would be better.

I've always kept cloudkill although I rarely use it anymore and figure I'll dump it for something on my sorc, maybe one of those stupid buff spells people are always crying about when I run raids.... Nah.

GovtMule
05-06-2009, 10:05 AM
Incorrect. Late-game monsters have >2000 hit points tacked on arbitrarily above and beyond those granted by their constitution scores and hit dice.

Ahhh. Bummer. But thanks for setting me straight.



maybe one of those stupid buff spells people are always crying about when I run raids.... Nah.

:D ...... ummm, I mean .... :mad: .....Shame on you! ...... :D

Belwaar
05-06-2009, 10:10 AM
I'm sorry, but Cloudkill is NOT Cloudfail...maybe at endgame b/c of the attrocious amount of hp that mobs have, but in the lower stuff (say 1 - 14), it is very applicable. Works great in Madstone (actually all GH quests) and the VON series. Beholders hate it!

Cloudkill works. To say it doesn't is completely false. Sorry, but false.

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 10:11 AM
I'm sorry, but Cloudkill is NOT Cloudfail...maybe at endgame b/c of the attrocious amount of hp that mobs have, but in the lower stuff (say 1 - 14), it is very applicable. Works great in Madstone (actually all GH quests) and the VON series. Beholders hate it!

Cloudkill works. To say it doesn't is completely false. Sorry, but false.

Have you used it on Lamannia? Apparently not.

Belwaar
05-06-2009, 10:15 AM
Have you used it on Lamannia? Apparently not.

I'm not talking about Llamania, I'm talking about right now. Don't get your panties in a twist.

I understand it's not going to work as well as it does (imo) right now after Mod 9, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work...

Pfamily
05-06-2009, 10:22 AM
This might have been true if metamagic feats and acid enhancements worked with the spell.

They don't.


Well, that pretty much seals it...

Cloudkill scrolls: 10 for a buck...get em' to line your kalashtar cages!

Nott
05-06-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm not talking about Llamania, I'm talking about right now. Don't get your panties in a twist.

I understand it's not going to work as well as it does (imo) right now after Mod 9, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work...The thread is all about cloudkill in mod9, not cloudkill as it stands on the live servers... you shouldn't be untwisting others' panties without first untwisting your own.

Belwaar
05-06-2009, 10:27 AM
The thread is all about cloudkill in mod9, not cloudkill as it stands on the live servers... you shouldn't be untwisting others' panties without first untwisting your own.

Lol...I'm sorry, but who are you?

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 10:32 AM
Lol...I'm sorry, but who are you?

Who are you to ask?

As previously stated, this thread is about Cloudkill IN MOD 9, otherwise known as the content on the Lamannia server.

You might want to actually understand the topic of a thread before posting in it.

Nott
05-06-2009, 10:46 AM
Lol...I'm sorry, but who are you?I'm the person that pointed out that you completely missed the topic but criticized others for their on-topic comments. Go back and re-read the thread from the beginning, perhaps it will begin to make sense.

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 10:48 AM
FWIW, sorcerers don't have spellbooks. ;)

Lorien_the_First_One
05-06-2009, 10:56 AM
Have you used it on Lamannia? Apparently not.

I have. I like it. It's not an ultra-uber cloud of death, but it is very handy when used at the right time in the right place. I would agree with you that to make it truly effective they need to make enhancements and items and metamagic work with the acid damage.

TheGreatEye
05-06-2009, 11:25 AM
I have. I like it. It's not an ultra-uber cloud of death, but it is very handy when used at the right time in the right place. I would agree with you that to make it truly effective they need to make enhancements and items and metamagic work with the acid damage.

Well, it does say it is a 'bank of heavy yellowish green and poisonous fog', but it does seem gimp given the game wide hp inflations. Wonder if they will make metamagics and ehancements applicable?

dameron
05-06-2009, 11:42 AM
Maybe they should put it back to its PnP duration of one minute per level if it's going to be nerfed down to "Cloudmildlyannoy".

Quikster
05-06-2009, 11:49 AM
I'm the person that pointed out that you completely missed the topic but criticized others for their on-topic comments. Go back and re-read the thread from the beginning, perhaps it will begin to make sense.


Based on his previous posts, I highly doubt it...

Riorik
05-06-2009, 11:59 AM
Who are you to ask?

As previously stated, this thread is about Cloudkill IN MOD 9, otherwise known as the content on the Lamannia server.

You might want to actually understand the topic of a thread before posting in it.

I disagree. There are many ways to answer this question and I believe it is a valid viewpoint to write that Cloudkill will still have use after Mod9. I may not have the utility it once did, but that doesn't make it "cloudfail" to quote another or that another answer that doesn't PRECISELY match your opinion is necessarily incorrect.

Facts play a minor role in persuasive communication.

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 12:02 PM
I disagree. There are many ways to answer this question and I believe it is a valid viewpoint to write that Cloudkill will still have use after Mod9. I may not have the utility it once did, but that doesn't make it "cloudfail" to quote another or that another answer that doesn't PRECISELY match your opinion is necessarily incorrect.

Facts play a minor role in persuasive communication.

What's it useful for, that can't be done better with acid fog or solid fog? Enemies generally won't stay in the area of effect long enough to have the constitution damage affect them in any substantial way.

There are better spell options at level 5.

The only thing the spell actually offers is 25% concealment, which can be better achieved with SF of AF. CK neither slows the mob, nor does any substantial damage to end-game monsters.

Mod 9 will occur in Shavarath. Demons and devils are immune to poison, and resistant to acid. I.E. the spell fails.

Riorik
05-06-2009, 12:27 PM
Enemies generally won't stay in the area of effect long enough to have the constitution damage affect them in any substantial way.

Do you actually play the same game I do? Have you never dropped a Solid Fog + Cloudkill on an enemy?
Do you not remember the old Threnal West tactic of fogging/clouding the entire corridor before the durations were chopped?



Mod 9 will occur in Shavarath. Demons and devils are immune to poison, and resistant to acid. I.E. the spell fails.

This is only correct if you assume the only place that players will be is Shavarrath and/or any other content released with/after mod9 and there will ONLY be characters around that have access to 6th and higher level spells?

Keep in mind that no matter how the spell may have been altered, against enemies that are naturally poison immune, it was never going to be of much use even without a change to game behavior when CON hits zero.

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 12:30 PM
This is only correct if you assume the only place that players will be is Shavarrath and/or any other content released with/after mod9 and there will ONLY be characters around that have access to 6th and higher level spells?

Keep in mind that no matter how the spell may have been altered, against enemies that are naturally poison immune, it was never going to be of much use even without a change to game behavior with CON hits zero.

Considering the rate of content release, we'll be in Shavarath for about a year and a half. That's more than enough time to switch in cloudkill if it's ever made useful again.

Heck, cloudkill sucks in Mod 8...

Indrn_Fretgoop
05-06-2009, 12:31 PM
it adds a concealment bonus without drawing agro!

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 12:33 PM
Do you actually play the same game I do? Have you never dropped a Solid Fog + Cloudkill on an enemy?
Do you not remember the old Threnal West tactic of fogging/clouding the entire corridor before the durations were chopped?

That was how long ago? Are you seriously using THRENAL as a basis for your argument?

Actually, no, I don't remember that tactic, because on MY server we just beat the snot out of everything.

You're referencing past quests for an argument about future content? Are you for real? The time frame you noted was before not only the duration nerf, but also the upcoming nerf in Mod 9 which renders the spell completely useless. If you haven't read the release notes yet, CLOUDKILL DOESN'T KILL ANYTHING. Your solid fog/cloudkill tactic won't do squat that can't be achieved by a single acid fog and a wounder, and the acid fog and wounder will accomplish it more efficiently with less spell points spent, and faster.

Riorik
05-06-2009, 12:45 PM
That was how long ago? Are you seriously using THRENAL as a basis for your argument?

Actually, no, I don't remember that tactic, because on MY server we just beat the snot out of everything.

You're referencing past quests for an argument about future content? Are you for real? The time frame you noted was before not only the duration nerf, but also the upcoming nerf in Mod 9 which renders the spell completely useless. If you haven't read the release notes yet, CLOUDKILL DOESN'T KILL ANYTHING. Your solid fog/cloudkill tactic won't do squat that can't be achieved by a single acid fog and a wounder, and the acid fog and wounder will accomplish it more efficiently with less spell points spent, and faster.

It was a solo'ing technique. Significantly easier. Can't help it if your server never found the easy button.
Also sounds a bit one-dimensional. Beat it with a stick until it dies.

Consider me your obvious stick for the day and use the Shroud segment one as an example. In my opinion, the best shroud runs are the quickest...and sometime the quickest way is for the portal beaters to do only that and limit or eliminate even the need to beat on the (relatively weak) enemies that spawn with the portals.

So why not throw down a Solid-Fog + Cloudkill, run up to a portal and lead them away...let them cook a bit and let your melee's whack at them for a few seconds after they're eligible for auto-crits. Currently I often see or use the same trick except the cloudkill finishes them.

There are many ways to defeat everything. No one way is mandatory or necessarily the best. That's how it should be...Cloudkill as a tool to reduce enemies to auto-crit status may still be viable anywhere that the enemies are not IMMUNE to poison.

Quikster
05-06-2009, 12:45 PM
Not sure what you people don't understand, the OP asks this quesiltion in refrence to MOD 9.

Cloudannoy will be useless to most casters. Might there be some use for it at lvl 13? I dunno, maybe. But my sorcs don't take heroism because its useful for a few lvls....

Cloudkill in Therenal?Madstone? Pffft, stop pls.

sephiroth1084
05-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I'm not talking about Llamania, I'm talking about right now. Don't get your panties in a twist.

I understand it's not going to work as well as it does (imo) right now after Mod 9, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work...

The entire point of this discussion, which you seem to have missed, was whether Cloudkill would be worthwhile still given the changes to both the spell and Con-damage. Everyone knows that it's a good spell now. We don't need to debate this point.

Grow some reading comprehension.

Riorik
05-06-2009, 12:52 PM
Not sure what you people don't understand, the OP asks this quesiltion in refrence to MOD 9.

Cloudannoy will be useless to most casters. Might there be some use for it at lvl 13? I dunno, maybe. But my sorcs don't take heroism because its useful for a few lvls....

Cloudkill in Therenal?Madstone? Pffft, stop pls.

If you restrict your answer not just to Module 9 but to ONLY the new content in Module 9 -- and assume that ALL of it is is immune to poison, then yes, you're right.

If you pay attention that module 9 isn't the entire game...that shrouds, hounds, visions & abbots will still be run...and that some of the enemies won't be poison immune, I think you're absolutely wrong if you claim it's 100% useless.

Can you do it another way - sure. Is there a lot of stuff you can do without ever using any of the cloud/fog type spells - sure. You're talking, foolishly, about absolutes.

I remember when cloudkill started generating aggro - how enlarged Ck would often leave enemies simply cooking and unresponsive...and how the spell was pronounced doomed. At worst all that will happen is the tactics will be adjusted.

I think it's more accurate to say...cloudkill (or cloudannoy) will be less useful....just not useless.

I'll edit in after the next post was already made in partial response.
Good luck - opinions are opinions. Keep trying to shout mine down - perhaps if you yell louder, you'll win.

sephiroth1084
05-06-2009, 12:58 PM
It was a solo'ing technique.

There, highlighted that for you. It will now no longer be useful in that context. And in the time it will take to drop non-poison-immune monsters down to 0 Con via Cloudkill, the party will have probably just killed the monsters outright anyway. Besides, you're suggesting casting two long-animation spells to justify its use. In half the quests I run, monsters get dead before the first such spell comes into existence.

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 01:00 PM
Good luck getting monsters to cook in a cloudkill when they automatically aggro on you. I'm sorry for the parties you play with if you're thinking that's contributing.

GlassCannon
05-06-2009, 01:42 PM
Good luck getting monsters to cook in a cloudkill when they automatically aggro on you. I'm sorry for the parties you play with if you're thinking that's contributing.

Crowd Control... look into it :p

GlassCannon
05-06-2009, 01:43 PM
In half the quests I run, monsters get dead before the first such spell comes into existence.

Then roll a Bard and be done with it...

GlassCannon
05-06-2009, 01:47 PM
Haven't tested it much, it did fine in the Vale, but outside that I didn't use it at all.

Sequence(Sorc): Extend, Maximize, Empower, Equip Potency and Lore items. Displace and Haste yourself, and grab Jump on the way. Go aggro something(or lots of somethings). Find a good spot and drop a Solid Fog. Put a Cloudkill in it. If you can't survive long enough to do both, play a different class or reroll. Run the monsters into the fog and watch them cook, jumping over and around them to keep them in said fog.

If the devs nerf this tactic, Cloudkill should be removed from the game.

Sequence(Wizard): Same as above, but turn on Quicken or you will probably die, due to excessively slow casting animations.

Nevthial
05-06-2009, 01:50 PM
Cloudkill will still work come Mod 9 . It can get crits on the acid portion, enhancements and potency/acid lore worked on Lamma land. Maximize and Empower, donot. ( I got 50hp a tic damage with a crit and it tics off faster than Acid Fog to boot) It didn't stack with Acid Fog when lamma land was up before, whether this is to be changed, who knows.

In the Devil's battlefield itself, there are numerous creatures with "short leashes" that will cook in a cloud and die. As to which one's this works on, have to test yourself, I can't give away all my secrets. :)

Thriand
05-06-2009, 01:52 PM
Haven't tested it much, it did fine in the Vale, but outside that I didn't use it at all.

Sequence(Sorc): Extend, Maximize, Empower, Equip Potency and Lore items. Displace and Haste yourself, and grab Jump on the way. Go aggro something(or lots of somethings). Find a good spot and drop a Solid Fog. Put a Cloudkill in it. If you can't survive long enough to do both, play a different class or reroll. Run the monsters into the fog and watch them cook, jumping over and around them to keep them in said fog.

If the devs nerf this tactic, Cloudkill should be removed from the game.

Sequence(Wizard): Same as above, but turn on Quicken or you will probably die, due to excessively slow casting animations.
Cloudkill can't be maximized or empowered.... which is why it is useless

Aspenor
05-06-2009, 02:02 PM
Crowd Control... look into it :p

This coming from the guy that throws a fit every time he fails a quest...

Whereas I don't think any quest I've been in has failed for months....hmmmmm....who should look into what, again?

Finger of Death....Hold Monster....look into it. These are the only spells needed for a caster in Part 1 of the Shroud.

sephiroth1084
05-06-2009, 02:10 PM
Then roll a Bard and be done with it...

I should roll a bard because most groups tear through stuff before a cloud-type spell can come down?

Perhaps you should stop playing DDO and go become a crash-test dummy since your argumentative skills don't appear to be functioning.

That's approximately equivalent to your statement.

Ranmaru2
05-06-2009, 02:11 PM
it adds a concealment bonus without drawing agro!

*BBBZZZZZZZTTTTTTTT* Wrong. Cloudkill draws aggro as fast as a mob who saves after touching a web or first hitting a FW or the hound hitting a solid fog

Quikster
05-06-2009, 02:18 PM
If you restrict your answer not just to Module 9 but to ONLY the new content in Module 9 -- and assume that ALL of it is is immune to poison, then yes, you're right.

If you pay attention that module 9 isn't the entire game...that shrouds, hounds, visions & abbots will still be run...and that some of the enemies won't be poison immune, I think you're absolutely wrong if you claim it's 100% useless.

Can you do it another way - sure. Is there a lot of stuff you can do without ever using any of the cloud/fog type spells - sure. You're talking, foolishly, about absolutes.

I remember when cloudkill started generating aggro - how enlarged Ck would often leave enemies simply cooking and unresponsive...and how the spell was pronounced doomed. At worst all that will happen is the tactics will be adjusted.

I think it's more accurate to say...cloudkill (or cloudannoy) will be less useful....just not useless.

I'll edit in after the next post was already made in partial response.
Good luck - opinions are opinions. Keep trying to shout mine down - perhaps if you yell louder, you'll win.

Not trying to shut yours down. Just telling you you're wrong. like in the previous post, reread my post and tell me again how i leave out content prior to mod 9.


Crowd Control... look into it :p

Im sorry bud, but cloud kill IS NOT crowd control, maybe YOU should look into it....


I should roll a bard because most groups tear through stuff before a cloud-type spell can come down?

Perhaps you should stop playing DDO and go become a crash-test dummy since your argumentative skills don't appear to be functioning.

That's approximately equivalent to your statement.

ROFLMAO!! TYVM :D

redoubt
05-06-2009, 05:13 PM
Hello all,

Do to recent changes in the game and mod 9 coming soon ( lol ) I was wondering if it was time to rid my spell book of cloudkill and go for something else ( please indicate what spells I might consider and why ) as a caster. What do you all think.. Let me know..

Just wanna some feedback on this.. thanks!

My sorc has kept cloudkill on his list for since it was available. I think he will be getting rid of it in mod 9. The loss of zero con=death hurts this spell too much. I already have acid fog for other mobs.

Suggestions of other spells to load instead:
Ball lightning
Break enchantment
cone of cold
hold monster
mind fog
teleport
waves of fatigue

*note: I'll be replacing this if I even play my sorc into mod 9. The history of nerfs on casters is just getting too darn long. Charm nerf, being offered mass charm then not getting it, nerfing CK the first time, making all the giants (and many others) completely immune to mind controls, nerfing firewall stacking, making fire immune undead... (not saying each these are all bad, but ALL of them together are bad.)

Ranmaru2
05-06-2009, 05:17 PM
I'm one who promotes people having Break Enchantment at all times.

Why? You can erase CC/AoE mistakes that other morons do when they just decide to cast a spell. 3+ criss-crossed FWs? BREAK ENCHANT 10 Dancing orbs overlapping? BREAK ENCHANT 3+ BBs overlapping? BREAK ENCHANT

Otherwise hold monster always works, unless they're immune.

SneakThief
05-06-2009, 06:05 PM
If you pay attention that module 9 isn't the entire game...that shrouds, hounds, visions & abbots will still be run...and that some of the enemies won't be poison immune, I think you're absolutely wrong if you claim it's 100% useless.


You really should have used better examples. 95+% of everything in EVERY quest you mentioned is immune to poison.

And no, the OP's questions was NOT whether it was 100% useless, it was whether it was worth keeping. As of Mod 9, its not. It doesnt kill anything, so its no longer cloudKILL. At 5th level, the new prismatic ray is much more fun anyway. :D

winsom
05-06-2009, 06:19 PM
I was thinking about this recently. Ive no experience with it on Preview server, mind you.

I'm guessing that it will be a lot less useful after Mod 9. I could see using it IF I know my teammates will be using wounding and/or puncturing weapons. They will get to auto-crit from CON zero a bit faster with Cloudkill. However I don't imagine that many people will be using Wounding or Puncturing when more traditional DPS weapons (i.e. Greater Bane or Holy Good Burst) can quickly kill most monsters when Vorpal isn't an option.

If I want to grant auto-crit to my team there are better ways than Cloudkill. I'd use a Hold spell or Flesh to Stone. If I know my team wants to render monsters helpless via weapons then I'd recommend STR-damaging weapons instead of CON. My wizard can quickly drop a monster by 12+ Strength via Ray of Enfeeblement & Waves of Exhaustion. Dropping CON via Cloudkill is very slow by comparison.

I'm thinking: I already have Acid Fog for slow-killing over time and it provides some much desired battlefield control, and it has a larger area than Cloudkill !

I have never used Cloudkill to kill off very low HD monsters because they pretty much don't exist in adventures after my wizard learned Cloudkill. I have never used Cloudkill as a "damage" spell that helps my team kill off monsters a little faster. There are other spells that are "better" at damage-based killing than Cloudkill.

I have used Cloudkill for its concealment and for it's ability to eventually kill-off very hard to hit monsters (i.e. elite insects), but that was mostly before my wizard learned Acid Fog.

Riorik
05-06-2009, 07:49 PM
You really should have used better examples. 95+% of everything in EVERY quest you mentioned is immune to poison.

And no, the OP's questions was NOT whether it was 100% useless, it was whether it was worth keeping. As of Mod 9, its not. It doesnt kill anything, so its no longer cloudKILL. At 5th level, the new prismatic ray is much more fun anyway. :D

You're selectively reading answers to different questions.

Oh, easy. I was just mentioning raids specifically with the point that there is other content to run OTHER than mod9...not that those specific raids had stuff to kill in them that isn't immune to poison. If I'd added Marilith you'd probably have added that almost everything in it is a Red Named.

Example - easy - all of the SoS prep (whether you like them or DT crafting or not) excepting the obvious undead...Much of the Vale (shroud) prep excepting the obvious.

It's not really a valid argument to pick out one small piece - saying it's wrong - and then asserting that all of it is wrong.

The actual statement about 100% useless refers to the assessment that CK = fail. My interpretation of that is, they see no value in keeping the spell around at all.

My final statement on this whole thing is - it's an opinion. Some feel one way, others feel another. Personally, I think the whole CK=fail is merely drama.