PDA

View Full Version : Question to the masses:



Galacticus
04-30-2009, 12:44 AM
First let me explain the situation before I pose the question. I decided about 3 weeks ago to quit. I told a buddy of mine from work about the game and since I had 2 accounts I rolled with him to show him the ropes before I took my leave. He is a very good player, with better Nintendo skills than I'll ever have.
I told a few of the top guild leaders on my server that I was taking off and that Chris is playing my accounts, but none of them ever offered to play with him or at least get to know him. He had a hard time finding groups and finally gave up because not that the game was hard or it sucked(he rather enjoyed it) but he was treated like a noob in every group he went in. I understand why...why bother he's a noob right?

Here's the question(s):

How are we to increase the fan base if every new player gets ridiculed and teased?

How is this game going to get LOTRO treatment from Turbine without new fanbase?


I'm not ****ed at anyone but myself. I really love DDO and I find myself missing it and the band of misfits I roll with, but I stopped and thought about not only Chris but all the new players coming on board and the treatment they get even from myself.

Just a thought not a complaint. What do you think the solution is?

Uska
04-30-2009, 12:53 AM
Well find better people to play with for one plenty of people treat new players better but its generaly frowned on to give a new player a high level character because they havent learned to play them its better to start out low level and learn to play.

Noctus
04-30-2009, 12:57 AM
... but he was treated like a noob in every group he went in. I understand why...why bother he's a noob right?



Didnt i get everything right?
But he is a newb, isnt he?




Newb = new being to the game.

Noob = hasnt got the slightest clue, no matter how long he plays. Also doesnt like to listen to team tactics, and/or ignores obvious flaws in his tactics/behaviour.





What do you think the solution is?

I thing letting someone start with higher level character is a mistake.
You have to grow into the abilities of your character. Also nobody expects people with 5 hours of play experience in the Gianthold, for example.

Galacticus
04-30-2009, 12:59 AM
Don't misunderstand...I rolled a toon for him to play. He didn't start with my capped toons. A matter of fact I told him hands off!

My point is what do we as more experienced players do to help new players gain interest in the game...or are we quick to judge and write off the noob?

SableShadow
04-30-2009, 01:39 AM
How are we to increase the fan base if every new player gets ridiculed and teased?


Err...introduce him to a guild that accepts new players, and their mistakes? There are several on every server.

No offence, but the folks you introduced him to don't exactly fart chocolate sprinkles and fairy dust. They're hard core, have little tolerance for folks that aren't able to at least pull their own weight, and they have a cutting wit.

What did you think would happen?

Borror0
04-30-2009, 01:42 AM
How are we to increase the fan base if every new player gets ridiculed and teased?
Why do you think they are implenting scaling?

PS: Please don't say "As a beta for LOTRO's skirmishes."

Uska
04-30-2009, 01:46 AM
Don't misunderstand...I rolled a toon for him to play. He didn't start with my capped toons. A matter of fact I told him hands off!

My point is what do we as more experienced players do to help new players gain interest in the game...or are we quick to judge and write off the noob?

No I will try to play with anyone even kids though I may turn off voice chat if they get to annoying in that, I enjoy watching people do a quest for the first time and try not to spoil it for them

bandyman1
04-30-2009, 02:12 AM
Err...introduce him to a guild that accepts new players, and their mistakes? There are several on every server.

No offence, but the folks you introduced him to don't exactly fart chocolate sprinkles and fairy dust. They're hard core, have little tolerance for folks that aren't able to at least pull their own weight, and they have a cutting wit.

What did you think would happen?

/QFT Drak.

I haven't ran with your friend, and I really didn't know you were bringing anyone into the game.

But honestly man; Brenna's accessment of our circle is pretty spot on.


You should have told me. I could've hooked him up with LB. They're a far more layed back guild.

KiwiJoe
04-30-2009, 02:13 AM
I think this is a promblem for most mature MMO's.

The Vets have done each quests 100's of times and EXPECT to tear through and grab thier loot ASAP. They get frustrated very quickly at what is seen as stupid mistakes. (remember - even vets make the odd mistake :) )

But there is a big difference in not knowing a quest, or the right thing to do in certain situations, and not knowing how to play your toon and follow directions.

Example: level 16 pallies/rangers in the shourd, with full mana bars, asking for resists multiple times :rolleyes:

Newbs often make it tough on themselves by not stating upfront that they don't the quest well (most groups will accomodate you if you're honest and follow orders!).

There is nothing worse than having to go back and find/rez lost newbs who never said it was their first time in a quest :mad:

That being said, I think we could all be a little easier on newbs - I know I could :)

transtemporal
04-30-2009, 02:29 AM
Er... no, i'm guessing the reason he was ignored is because he's not you. Even in a virtual world you get used to certain peoples quirks and its just weird when you KNOW its not them.

If if started his own account, i'm sure he'd be fine.

Jondallar
04-30-2009, 02:55 AM
the NPE is for new players they dont need me to hold their hand. thats why turbine wasted their resourc... er developed it in the first place. new players need to go through the paces just like vets... when we started noone was giving us gear or plat, we had to earn it, and grab collectables and such. there are plenty of casual/newb friendly guilds around and thats where your bud should have been directed. especially in this age of expired content where the hardcores are at the peak of irritation and not looking to molly coddle anyone.

i suggest you hanging with your bud if you want him to stick around, i mean if you dont even want to play the game with him why would others?

Wu_Jen
04-30-2009, 03:47 AM
First let me explain the situation before I pose the question. I decided about 3 weeks ago to quit. I told a buddy of mine from work about the game and since I had 2 accounts I rolled with him to show him the ropes before I took my leave. He is a very good player, with better Nintendo skills than I'll ever have.
I told a few of the top guild leaders on my server that I was taking off and that Chris is playing my accounts, but none of them ever offered to play with him or at least get to know him. He had a hard time finding groups and finally gave up because not that the game was hard or it sucked(he rather enjoyed it) but he was treated like a noob in every group he went in. I understand why...why bother he's a noob right?

Here's the question(s):

How are we to increase the fan base if every new player gets ridiculed and teased?

How is this game going to get LOTRO treatment from Turbine without new fanbase?


I'm not ****ed at anyone but myself. I really love DDO and I find myself missing it and the band of misfits I roll with, but I stopped and thought about not only Chris but all the new players coming on board and the treatment they get even from myself.

Just a thought not a complaint. What do you think the solution is?

The answer?

More new players.

Simple.

More new players = more new players doing lower level quests together.

More new players = less of a chance of 5 of the party members in any given party being veterans with 'twinked' characters.

More new players = less of a chance for vets to be harsh because the other 5 members of the party will more than likely be new as well.

More new players = good.

Will it upset the status quo? Yes. Will it disrupt these machine like runs we have developed? Yes, at first anyhow.

Overall though you need even more new players to make other new players feel better about their characters. When you run a quest and someone else is blowing through the monsters and knows where everything is then it can lead 'some' people to believe that they have made bad characters.

More new players = good.

Alavatar
04-30-2009, 08:32 AM
New players need to find a forgiving crowd to play with.

Last week I was doing VoN 1-4 and several players in the group had never done them before. I took the time to explain the story behind each quest of the series, what the quest required, and how to do each quest (VoN3 was intense, but luckily we had two sorcs).

One of the players, a guy playing a paladin (and playing him well) said he had been in groups that had chastised him for being new and/or booted him from the group because he didn't know the quest and that he appreciated someone taking the time to explain it all and be patient.

I don't understand why people feel the need to ridicule people that don't know the game like the back of their hand... But, that's what drives new players away.

Aspenor
04-30-2009, 08:35 AM
First let me explain the situation before I pose the question. I decided about 3 weeks ago to quit. I told a buddy of mine from work about the game and since I had 2 accounts I rolled with him to show him the ropes before I took my leave. He is a very good player, with better Nintendo skills than I'll ever have.
I told a few of the top guild leaders on my server that I was taking off and that Chris is playing my accounts, but none of them ever offered to play with him or at least get to know him. He had a hard time finding groups and finally gave up because not that the game was hard or it sucked(he rather enjoyed it) but he was treated like a noob in every group he went in. I understand why...why bother he's a noob right?

Here's the question(s):

How are we to increase the fan base if every new player gets ridiculed and teased?

How is this game going to get LOTRO treatment from Turbine without new fanbase?


I'm not ****ed at anyone but myself. I really love DDO and I find myself missing it and the band of misfits I roll with, but I stopped and thought about not only Chris but all the new players coming on board and the treatment they get even from myself.

Just a thought not a complaint. What do you think the solution is?
Honestly drak, I didn't even know you handed off the account. I haven't even been in-game enough to notice. Chris might have just hit a roadblock because a lot of us aren't playing much.

GovtMule
04-30-2009, 08:46 AM
Im surprised actually. I honestly dont recall any razzing or ire being raised by a newb.

To the contrary, I find most, if not all, players "go the extra mile" for new players. My gang and I do, for sure!

If you are snotty with newcomers, better not let me catch you posting DDOooooom posts!

Alavatar
04-30-2009, 09:06 AM
if You Are Snotty With Newcomers, Better Not Let Me Catch You Posting Ddoooooom Posts!

Qft! :D

samagee
04-30-2009, 12:22 PM
First let me explain the situation before I pose the question. I decided about 3 weeks ago to quit. I told a buddy of mine from work about the game and since I had 2 accounts I rolled with him to show him the ropes before I took my leave. He is a very good player, with better Nintendo skills than I'll ever have.
I told a few of the top guild leaders on my server that I was taking off and that Chris is playing my accounts, but none of them ever offered to play with him or at least get to know him. He had a hard time finding groups and finally gave up because not that the game was hard or it sucked(he rather enjoyed it) but he was treated like a noob in every group he went in. I understand why...why bother he's a noob right?

Here's the question(s):

How are we to increase the fan base if every new player gets ridiculed and teased?

How is this game going to get LOTRO treatment from Turbine without new fanbase?


I'm not ****ed at anyone but myself. I really love DDO and I find myself missing it and the band of misfits I roll with, but I stopped and thought about not only Chris but all the new players coming on board and the treatment they get even from myself.

Just a thought not a complaint. What do you think the solution is?

I have seen this repeatedly, and I just ignore the idiots.

Ganak
04-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Players should consider being as receptive as possible to new players. New players means the game will last longer.

Mockduck
04-30-2009, 12:36 PM
I have a stack of emails at ddocast from new players who like the game but feel like it's impossible to deal with veterans. Generally because of zerging, zerging zerging! New players want to learn the game, vets want to zoom through it (in general). I think it's one of the biggest challenges to getting new players: getting them into the fast pace of the game without leaving them confused and frustrated. It's easy to say "just say you're now" or "post new on the LFM", but real-life experience shows to me that this just doesn't work very often.

Gol
04-30-2009, 12:38 PM
Err...introduce him to a guild that accepts new players, and their mistakes? There are several on every server.

No offence, but the folks you introduced him to don't exactly fart chocolate sprinkles and fairy dust. They're hard core, have little tolerance for folks that aren't able to at least pull their own weight, and they have a cutting wit.

What did you think would happen?
Lies, Nick farts fairy dust every night! I have screenshots!

That aside, QFT.

branmakmuffin
04-30-2009, 12:47 PM
I have a stack of emails at ddocast from new players who like the game but feel like it's impossible to deal with veterans. Generally because of zerging, zerging zerging! New players want to learn the game, vets want to zoom through it (in general). I think it's one of the biggest challenges to getting new players: getting them into the fast pace of the game without leaving them confused and frustrated. It's easy to say "just say you're now" or "post new on the LFM", but real-life experience shows to me that this just doesn't work very often.
I can remember when I had my old, slow computer. In quests I didn't know, I'd be told "No problem" after informing the group I didn't know the quest, that I had a slow computer (long zone load times) and asking them not to race off without me (and even offering to drop group if it was going to be a problem).

What do you think happened most of the time? That's one of the reasons I don't PUG any more.

Slink
04-30-2009, 12:50 PM
Either way, it is wrong. No matter how you color it.

There will almost always be 1-2 vets in a low level quest.
They will zerg off into the sunset and not think twice about it.
Afterwards, what has the new player learned?

Nothing.

At higher level it will be the same.
When was the last time you ran tempest spine and
heard someone mention they were lost AND went to help them?
Obviously, they were left behind in the first place.
Again what did they learn from the quest?
Aside from the "community" sucking, nothing.

Not to mention posts in the past few months about these same issues.
Namely, khyber forums in reference to the refuge.
The flaming that went on there was astonishing.
And what did we learn from this?
That being left behind/booted from group could be expected.

Then we come to the people that have posted in this very thread, offering appologies because, "if they knew who it was, they would have been more inclined to help"

BS.

Everyone should be accountable for arrogance.

bandyman1
04-30-2009, 01:16 PM
Look Slink,


I would have helped Danny's friend, because he's Danny's friend. That's the long and the short of it.

Other than situations like that; Hell no. I've ran the content into the ground. And if I'm looking to level up a toon to cap, I'm not looking to flower sniff.

That said; I post my own " speed run " or " zerg " LFMs, or join LFMs with those tags.

If a newbie ( or a noob ) decides to join that type of group, then he'd better expect to keep up with the group without hand-holding. If he can't, and he joins anyways, then it's no one's fault that he's ****ed but his own.

Jondallar
04-30-2009, 01:20 PM
Why dont the new players learn the quests and how to play their characters? When a lowby group is running and you arent sure what to do, why not learn it for your self? Try soloing, take the time to read the flavor text before you are in a group and for Pete's sake please listen when a vet gives you directions and ask for clarification. This is how I learned the game not having my hand held and carried. Now is a bad time for new players to run with Hardcores type or even just veteran players because we have totally exhausted the content and are cranky about it and see no respite. Trust me if you are booted from the group you are better of because you would be unhappy trying to keep up.

Someone mentioned Tempest spine and going back to pick people up, I do it everytime regardless of what class I am playing. I rarely run TS because its almost always new players running this raid and they do not listen or follow directions... ever. They need to muddle through and figure things out for themselves because they dont believe the vet that is telling them how to do fire and ice ect.

Slink
04-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Thanx for the clarification on your stance Bandy.

I'm making reference to the fact that it happens at all levels in the game though.
Some people are interested in seeing growth in DDO rather than selfishness.

See below.


I have a stack of emails at ddocast from new players who like the game but feel like it's impossible to deal with veterans. Generally because of zerging, zerging zerging! New players want to learn the game, vets want to zoom through it (in general). I think it's one of the biggest challenges to getting new players: getting them into the fast pace of the game without leaving them confused and frustrated. It's easy to say "just say you're now" or "post new on the LFM", but real-life experience shows to me that this just doesn't work very often.

kingfisher
04-30-2009, 01:27 PM
If you are snotty with newcomers, better not let me catch you posting DDOooooom posts!

well said.

branmakmuffin
04-30-2009, 01:27 PM
Someone mentioned Tempest spine and going back to pick people up, I do it everytime regardless of what class I am playing. I rarely run TS because its almost always new players running this raid and they do not listen or follow directions... ever. They need to muddle through and figure things out for themselves because they dont believe the vet that is telling them how to do fire and ice ect.
That may be true, but another related problem is that for many quests (notice quests, not raids), so many players have learned or been taught one way to do them, and that's the only way they are to be done. Of course, a brand new player is not going to have an alternate method to offer up, but we have all been confronted with players who insist that there is only one way to deal with the arcane in Sewer Rescue/Sacrifices.

totmacher
04-30-2009, 01:31 PM
well, i liked that help chat channel idea that turbine implemented


I MEAN STOLE FROM ME!!!

bandyman1
04-30-2009, 01:38 PM
Problem with you logic though Slink is;

It isn't any more or less selfish for a vet to expect peeps to keep up, than it is for a newbie to expect everyone to slow down and hold their hands.

So; labeling those who do not have the desire to hand-hold as " selfish " is ironic at best.

Slink
04-30-2009, 02:21 PM
There is nothing "ironic" about it.

Hand-holding has nothing to do with letting someone experience a quest.

There is quite big difference between running a quest with someone and running the quest for them.
Your mentality equates to the latter which is why you see it as "hand-holding" because they cant keep up.

What is ironic is likely that at low levels they cant afford 250 haste potions to even
be able to keep up, let alone the gear twinked out low levels have.

But I digress, everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what entails being helpful opposed to being selfish.

I'm not saying you are wrong, Bandy. Quite the opposite.
You are happy with your playstyle, that's fine.
I'm more inclined to the opposite if the situation presents itself.
I want more content/quests/races/classes.
The easiest way I can see to do that is to increase the # of people here.
In direct correlation with Duck's post, it is painfully obvious why we can't keep subscribers.
You've been here long enough to know what's up as far as the quests go.
Put yourself in a newcomer's position and imagine what you would think.

Emili
04-30-2009, 02:54 PM
There is nothing "ironic" about it.

Hand-holding has nothing to do with letting someone experience a quest.

There is quite big difference between running a quest with someone and running the quest for them.
Your mentality equates to the latter which is why you see it as "hand-holding" because they cant keep up.

What is ironic is likely that at low levels they cant afford 250 haste potions to even
be able to keep up, let alone the gear twinked out low levels have.

But I digress, everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what entails being helpful opposed to being selfish.

I'm not saying you are wrong, Bandy. Quite the opposite.
You are happy with your playstyle, that's fine.
I'm more inclined to the opposite if the situation presents itself.
I want more content/quests/races/classes.
The easiest way I can see to do that is to increase the # of people here.
In direct correlation with Duck's post, it is painfully obvious why we can't keep subscribers.
You've been here long enough to know what's up as far as the quests go.
Put yourself in a newcomer's position and imagine what you would think.


I am guilty of ignorance from time to time... I try to help people, is actually what I enjoy doing. Yet, there have been times I zerge ahead with my zerging friends and just in of shear fun in the moment ... am awakened by those lone blue dots way back... I stop, question and then turn back.

Those from Reidra and Khyber may remember Milton and Quicktoezzy ( I remember when Quick was a wiz:) ). I remember when they were noobs, I remember when I was a noob (technically I guess that could be present tense:) )... However, we learned things together and I realized way back then that knowledge was the key to success, not just for you, but for the friend next to you in your group and the entire group.

I am a bloody stickler for passing on information to people open to it... In fact so much so I have blown raids for people.

I.E.) A long time ago the Heroes were doing a mostly guild run of the vault/plane ... Wizgoddess and Fawna were in group, plus I had no less then four guildies who had never done von 5-6. I told Wizzy and Fawna both, I want these new people not only to learn the quest... but to actually do the quest so we will tell them what they need to do at every point. My perceived notion is doing is much more impressionable then hearing or seeing. We'll Both Wizzgoddess and Fawna paid no bloody head to what I requested ... off they went zerging away to turn it into a speed run. After repeatedly restating my position I got Ticked Off! I put my foot down and left... much to the dismay of all the Heroes present. They begged me to come back into the instance but I not budged as the damage at that point was done... I stated I would not be raiding anymore unless certain people would take into consideration and impress their group with companionship rather then try to impress their group with elitist ego. The raid group eroded into nothingness.

There always comes a point in this game where you know most nearly everything, thus the fun of learning is dwindled... but that does not mean you cannot present that same fun - your experience - to others so they may enjoy it.

Alavatar
04-30-2009, 03:25 PM
Once again I place the blame solely on tight pants.

Lucian_Navarro
04-30-2009, 03:28 PM
It's pretty obvoius that if another game of equal or better quality than DDO is created, then this one will instanly die as everyone will jump to that one due to how we have been treated.

It's just a matter of time now.

branmakmuffin
04-30-2009, 03:34 PM
It's pretty obvoius that if another game of equal or better quality than DDO is created, then this one will instanly die as everyone will jump to that one due to how we have been treated.

It's just a matter of time now.
It's not going to be a D&D-based game, and D&D is what keeps a lot of people around. But yes, if there were, for example, a FR-based MMO, DDO would be relegated to the scrap heap.

Borror0
04-30-2009, 04:58 PM
Everyone should be accountable for arrogance.
Should a hardcore gamer RP because a RPer joined his group? Should everyone in the party zerg because a zerger joined the party?

The problem is conflicting playstyles being "forced" to play together because of how group-centric DDO is, not the players being selfish or whatever you want to call them.

SableShadow
04-30-2009, 05:02 PM
The problem is conflicting playstyles being "forced" to play together because of how group-centric DDO is, not the players being selfish or whatever you want to call them.

Thread win.

branmakmuffin
04-30-2009, 05:04 PM
Thread win.
I thought of this when Borror0 was a zygote.

Borror0
04-30-2009, 05:32 PM
I thought of this when Borror0 was a zygote.
Each time I hear the word zygote, it reminds me of a TV show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e54rlcdsCfY) we had here when I was young.