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Bogenbroom
04-29-2009, 03:19 PM
IMHO there should be some way for dex fighters to bridge the damage gap between themselves and str fighters. Maybe a line of enhancements that allows them to apply their dex bonus to damage at a 33/66/100 (or maybe just 25/50/75) percent rate.

Actually, personally, I think the DnD rules are a bit screwy on this topic and the system should be more like 1/2 str bonus or dex bonus applied to hit and str bonus or half dex bonus applied to damage. But it is way to late in the game ofr that.

Pure dex fighters took a real hit with the WoP nerf (not that I am against eh WoP nerf) and need a little lovin'. Even before the nerf they were very pigeon holed.

Laith
04-29-2009, 03:24 PM
IMHO there should be some way for dex fighters to bridge the damage gap between themselves and str fighters. Maybe a line of enhancements that allows them to apply their dex bonus to damage at a 33/66/100 (or maybe just 25/50/75) percent rate.i never understood why we should be concerned with bridging the damage gap between str and dex fighters.

afterall,
by taking weapon finesse, you get to focus in dex and largely ignore strength. AC and reflex save, in addition to several useful skills are your rewards.
by just using strength, you get more damage and don't have to spend a feat. Of course, you still get to be concerned about AC and reflex saves, but that means raising dex also.

dexterity is a defensive stat, while strength is an offensive stat. The reason you are weaker offensively is because you chose to take points out of your offensive stat, and put them in elsewhere. You've "made your bed" so to speak.

Phidius
04-29-2009, 03:28 PM
When I built Stryde, I didn't maximize either strength or dex... I made him balanced. That seems to be a decent bridge in and of itself.

I think the feat Weapon Finesse is a decent bridge. At least with that feat, you can still hit things with a high dex, and contribute something to the bottom line when DPS matters.

Angelus_dead
04-29-2009, 03:32 PM
What if they got +1% melee speed per point of dex bonus? Just kidding.

Seriously though, I previously made a suggestion (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170409) that would allow dexterity to be added to melee damage with a limited set of weapons. It's still a really problematic game-design topic though.

bobbryan2
04-29-2009, 03:34 PM
There really isn't much of a gap between str fighters who also invest heavily in dex, and dex fighters who also invest heavily in str.

No need to really overcome this gap, because it's fairly well balanced.

There are plenty of dex rangers and rogues who do quite well.

Rilean
04-29-2009, 03:36 PM
I dont see the problem when you choose to go dex based as a fighter or ranger for that matter you choose to drop your strength. Your choice its a trade off. This is one thing I dont think needs looking at.

Bogenbroom
04-29-2009, 03:40 PM
i never understood why we should be concerned with bridging the damage gap between str and dex fighters.

afterall,
by taking weapon finesse, you get to focus in dex and largely ignore strength. AC and reflex save, in addition to several useful skills are your rewards.
by just using strength, you get more damage and don't have to spend a feat. Of course, you still get to be concerned about AC and reflex saves, but that means raising dex also.

dexterity is a defensive stat, while strength is an offensive stat. The reason you are weaker offensively is because you chose to take points out of your offensive stat, and put them in elsewhere. You've "made your bed" so to speak.

Can't agree with you at all there. A str based fighter needs minimal dex to maximize their potential. They have the benefit of actual armor that dex builds lack. A dex based fighter is already handicapped by his weapon selection and armor selection. So the only real advantage a dex build gets is the reflex saves. For which they lose a *huge* amount of damage potential.

Impaqt
04-29-2009, 03:41 PM
As long as STR Fighters get the option using their STR Modifier for their AC and Reflex save I'm good with this suggestion.

Angelus_dead
04-29-2009, 03:44 PM
Can't agree with you at all there. A str based fighter needs minimal dex to maximize their potential.
You think so? Can you put a number as to what you think that "minimal dex" needed is?


They have the benefit of actual armor that dex builds lack. A dex based fighter is already handicapped by his weapon selection and armor selection.
Uh, robes are better than armor, and dex characters have more AC than anyone else.

Laith
04-29-2009, 03:49 PM
Can't agree with you at all there. A str based fighter needs minimal dex to maximize their potential. They have the benefit of actual armor that dex builds lack. in theory that argument is valid, but while practicing it in DDO it fails horribly. Robe-wearers score the highest possible AC by far.


A dex based fighter is already handicapped by his weapon selection and armor selection."armor selection" isn't a handicap. If a dex build is handicapped because he has no use for fullplate, a str build is equally handicapped since he won't wear robes.


So the only real advantage a dex build gets is the reflex saves. For which they lose a *huge* amount of damage potential.firstly: reflex saves = evasion.
secondly: dex skills are useful. the only str skill is jump.
thirdly: you're over-estimating the damage gap. if one were to build with a modicum of strength (being able to hit 13 with a tome), they could get power attack and a large portion of lost damage.
fourthly: as mentioned earlier, robe wearers currently win the AC prize. For an armor wearer to have decent AC, they still need 20+ dex.

Note: only in DDO can you apply power attack to "light" weapons.

wamjratl1
04-29-2009, 03:53 PM
7d6 sneak attack damage is a nice bridge.

Angelus_dead
04-29-2009, 03:55 PM
Note: only in DDO can you apply power attack to "light" weapons.
However, that rule was a design flaw in D&D. It was correct for DDO to change that... in fact, it was even more important in DDO.

You see, for various reasons DDO made two changes you're probably familiar with:
1. Monster have increased hitpoints.
2. Iterative attack bonuses go up, not down.

The combined result of those two changes is that it's rarely an interesting question whether PCs will hit monsters with attacks; they usually will. But because of those high hitpoints, they'll need a lot of damage to bring down a monster. That means the area where finesse characters are equal to strength is less important (hitting), while the area in which they are disadvantaged (damage) is more important. Thus the relative power of dex vs str melee is shifted.

Adding PA to light weapons helped shift it back.

(Note that the consequence of prohibiting PA from light weapons would be to force all finesse characters to use rapiers in both hands at all times, which is visually ugly. At least today they have the choice to use a shortsword or kukri)

Angelus_dead
04-29-2009, 03:56 PM
7d6 sneak attack damage is a nice bridge.
There's such a thing as a "strength rogue"

Bogenbroom
04-29-2009, 03:58 PM
You think so? Can you put a number as to what you think that "minimal dex" needed is?

I don't see where a str build needs any more than a 12 starting dex to max out their AC bonus wearing heavy, even mithral, armor. I might be short there, but that is my thinking.



Uh, robes are better than armor, and dex characters have more AC than anyone else.

Well, you are talking about Monk splash builds which are an entirely different discussion in my mind and I'm not touching that issue with a ten foot pole (largely because I don't know monks well enough to speak to them.) I am talking from the perspective of a pure fighter... or any melee pure class.

I am coming from this... I have a few fighters... admittedly fighters are not my forte, but my capped dex fighter is largely relegated to being an off-fighter debuffing enemies. His dps compared to my str fighters is pathetic. Pure class only here. Maybe he is immensley screwed up, but it has been my impression that the only way to make a really good dex fighter is to do a lot of splashing which means, to me, that dex fighter!= str fighter. That's all.

Laith
04-29-2009, 03:58 PM
However, that rule was a design flaw in D&D. It was correct for DDO to change that... in fact, it was even more important in DDO.agreed. just pointing it out for the uninitiated.

Draccus
04-29-2009, 04:01 PM
I think PnP (and NWN) tried to bridge this gap with the introduction of the duelist PrC. That class allowed extra damage when using a rapier every few Duelist levels. If I recall, the restrictions were so severe (no dual wielding, no armor, no shield) compared to the extra damage (1d6 every 4 levels or something) that it failed miserably as anything other than a flavor PrC.

wamjratl1
04-29-2009, 04:04 PM
There's such a thing as a "strength rogue"

Of course there is. And they do massive damage I'm told. I'm just sayin that sneak attacks are a good way for a dex rogue to balance damage against a str-based melee.

Angelus_dead
04-29-2009, 04:05 PM
Well, you are talking about Monk splash builds which are an entirely different discussion in my mind and I'm not touching that issue with a ten foot pole (largely because I don't know monks well enough to speak to them.)
If you ignore the existence of the monk class, then your suggestions aren't really pertinent to any game system which does include them.

Bogenbroom
04-30-2009, 06:46 AM
If you ignore the existence of the monk class, then your suggestions aren't really pertinent to any game system which does include them.

So, in that vein, your argument is that by design any dex fighter build is required to have splashed monk in it. And that seems like it is as it should be?

eonfreon
04-30-2009, 09:27 AM
So, in that vein, your argument is that by design any dex fighter build is required to have splashed monk in it. And that seems like it is as it should be?

I don't really think that's what A_D meant but here's what I think:

Monk is not a requirement but is a valid and powerful splash for a Dex character. Moreso than for a Str Based, although both may benefit from it.

It is not required for either build, but should one decide on Dex over Str, knowing how the system works, than they are in essence choosing some "defense" over "offense" to a certain degree. So is Rogue, which has it's own strengths and weaknesses: UMD, Trap and Lock skills, etc.

Therefore if choosing Dex and Defense, a Monk splash increases in "value" more to a Dex Base than a Str Base.
The value is rather transient but includes higher Reflex saves (therefore a "better" Evasion), higher unarmored, unshielded AC (which goes higher than most Armor and Shield, especially while Dual-wielding).
The Current Exchange is Lower Damage output. Which was more than compensated for by certain weapons; the WoP and other Stat dmg.
Against Bosses of course Str was superior but there were many circumstances where a Dex base could "keep up", so long as he didn't completely dump Str.

However, if ideas could be presented of Feats and expensive Enhancements that could bridge some of the gap between Str and Dex Based dps, I would certainly be receptive.
The cost would have to be appropriate. To me something in the vein of giving up AC for Damage, i.e the attacker is using all his speed for attack and little in the way of defense, and expensive in Feats and Enhancements.

Laith
04-30-2009, 09:38 AM
So, in that vein, your argument is that by design any dex fighter build is required to have splashed monk in it. And that seems like it is as it should be?if you're going to build a dex-based fighter and completely deny yourself the option of multiclassing, you've done what's called "gimping yourself". Or, maybe you could argue that the game has gimped you.

Either way: pure Fighters are hard to make into good dex builds. Even before you created your character, DDO told you that the recommended attributes for Fighters were Strength and Constitution. But you choose Dexterity, probably because it gave you something you saw as more useful than DPS.

Now, you cry for change because you've realized you were mistaken.

Tanka
04-30-2009, 09:50 AM
I don't see where a str build needs any more than a 12 starting dex to max out their AC bonus wearing heavy, even mithral, armor. I might be short there, but that is my thinking.
14, assuming you don't mind waiting for a +3 Dex tome to drop so you can swap feats to get GTWF.

In the current endgame, being able to go from AC to DPS is key. If you're an AC build in a quest that doesn't require AC, you need to be able to bring the pain or be left in the dust.

Angelus_dead
04-30-2009, 05:10 PM
Even before you created your character, DDO told you that the recommended attributes for Fighters were Strength and Constitution.
If it were desirable for DDO to support the concept of a high-dex medium-str Fighter class character, the way to approach it would be with a new PRC specialty such as Swashbuckler. The key feature would be an AC bonus equal to your intelligence modifier when lightly armored and holding a single one-hand weapon, which would not stack with Monk wisdom AC.

Along with some other assorted bonuses, it could be a balanced choice compared to monk splash and other options. However, there are far more important outstanding problems in DDO's character design that would take priority over validating dex-based Fighters.

Bogenbroom
05-01-2009, 09:56 AM
If it were desirable for DDO to support the concept of a high-dex medium-str Fighter class character, the way to approach it would be with a new PRC specialty such as Swashbuckler. The key feature would be an AC bonus equal to your intelligence modifier when lightly armored and holding a single one-hand weapon, which would not stack with Monk wisdom AC.

Along with some other assorted bonuses, it could be a balanced choice compared to monk splash and other options. However, there are far more important outstanding problems in DDO's character design that would take priority over validating dex-based Fighters.


Oh sure, it certainly isn't the games most critical "issue" in the game. Just tossing out there as a topic for thought.

zipster
05-01-2009, 12:21 PM
strength (being able to hit 13 with a tome), they could get power attack and a large portion of lost damage.
...
Note: only in DDO can you apply power attack to "light" weapons.

Hey, never noticed that! Might have to give it a try :D Unless its one of those "bug not a feature" things hehe :P

negative
05-01-2009, 01:11 PM
What is this gap we are talking about? If you built a dex based character and can't do good dps, you screwed up your build. If you are going to claim to care about whether you character can DPS, at most, a dex based build has no reason to be any more than 7 str* behind the str based version of the build by level 20. That's only 3 damage per hit. If that is making or breaking whether you can DPS with your build, then you probably wouldn't be doing great DPS even if you went str based on your build.

*= 5 points from level up, and sacrificing 2 points at character creation. They can get all the same gear as a str build. Dex builds that want to DPS should still have a 14 or 16 starting STR before racial adjustments, depending whether the STR version of the build would have started with a 16 or 18. The only other option is to be a rogue and close the gap with sneak attack. If you start with an 8 STR, it isn't the game's fault you have bad DPS, it's your own.

Aeneas
05-01-2009, 01:23 PM
Fighter is a terrible class for a dex build. Your big strengths (no pun intended) are your combat feats which all play off of your strength modifier. You have access to tower shields and heavy armor both which give a greater AC bonus at the cost of a lower max dex bonus. Ignoring strength on your fighter to try and make him do something he isn't meant to do, is like starting a sorcerer with 10 charisma and expecting him to keep up with the guy who has 40 because what he lacks in spell power he makes up for in will saves due to his 32 wisdom score. I'm not saying dex builds are invalid, i'm just saying they're a poor choice for an effective fighter.

baddax
05-02-2009, 12:28 AM
Easy solution lower the ap's for fighter armor and shield mastery and add a few more levels to same. However since this is basicly what they did with stalwart defender class then problem solved.

IMO fighters are a strength based class. If you want a Dex based Finesse melee go Ranger/Rogue or even monk.

Noctus
05-02-2009, 08:41 AM
There is nothing to fix.

Some things just dont work out.



DEX-based Fighters = gimp
CON-based Wizards = gimp
equal split Wizard/Clerics = gimp