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zavozod
04-28-2009, 02:02 AM
What are we monks doin to generate all this hate?

Ideas?

Cures?

DragoonPenguin
04-28-2009, 02:07 AM
building up the ki bar generates monk hate

using that ki to spam earth and wind strikes will cure the problem completely

mato what are your thoughts. obviously this is plaguing your thoughts as well

spartin
04-28-2009, 02:14 AM
monks are doing nothing to generate hate. as in low dps, no intimidate to take advantage of high ac, no trap skills, rarley party buffs. usually any other class will contribute more to a party then a monk. my 2cp. and before you flame me to badly for bashing monks, remember i didn't design or program them. cures? fix handwraps, give them another weapon, or give them intimidate as a skill.

captain1z
04-28-2009, 02:14 AM
What are we monks doin to generate all this hate?

Ideas?

Cures?

The only way a monk can generate hate is in solo play. solution = join a group and display how subpar your dps really is. Watch as creatures stop attacking u, thus increasing your AC further. Trust me, Im a monk and I use a shuriken. Dont laugh....its pretty sharp.

Thorzian
04-28-2009, 02:18 AM
all a monk needs to do to generate hate is exist.

Monkey_Archer
04-28-2009, 02:19 AM
Monks are hated by ignorant people.
Caused by monks that dont know how to play monks...
Caused by forums about how low their dps suposebly is...
Caused by people who belive dps vs pit fiends is the only thing that matters in the game.

captain1z
04-28-2009, 02:19 AM
monks are doing nothing to generate hate. as in low dps, no intimidate to take advantage of high ac, no trap skills, rarley party buffs. usually any other class will contribute more to a party then a monk. my 2cp. and before you flame me to badly for bashing monks, remember i didn't design or program them. cures? fix handwraps, give them another weapon, or give them intimidate as a skill.

shuriken 1D2 (only ranged weapon)
Kamas 1D6
qstaff 1D6 (2handed weapon mind you)
30 sec buffs
handwraps = broken

other weapons that they are proficient with make them unbalanced and negate all benefits of being a monk

I would go on but Im afraid if I read my own list I may delete my monk.

Korskarn
04-28-2009, 02:20 AM
I like playing from times to times my pure monk. Did a hound run earlier.

Is it the strongest class out there ? i don't think so but it's really fun to play.

Too bad spell resistance doesnt work the way it should and i regret the lack of GS handwraps : i don't like kamas and qstaff is not that great.

As for the hate, if people don't want to group with my monk, i won't be angry with them, as i see that more often with my 8 fighter / 8 wizard ... so just move on and find another group.

captain1z
04-28-2009, 02:24 AM
partial solution:


Make the monks more of a martial artist

give them:

Longswords
light maces
hvy maces
daggers
slings or blunt missles like the festival coal
and a reason to use qstaffs
handwraps that work


this just for starters

Korskarn
04-28-2009, 02:34 AM
hum, i would prefer that they :
1/ fix handwraps
2/ add GS handwraps
3/ add more monk items

Onesikpup
04-28-2009, 02:42 AM
well, there has to be a class that sucks. since monks were invented, rangers dont suck. if you want monks to be good, Turbine must create a class worse than monks (or at least botch up another class that was good in PnP worse than they did monks)

Ikuryo
04-28-2009, 04:07 AM
Just some corrections.. monk SR does seem to work it just does not display.
All monk buffs except for the earth light earth one are now 1 minute buffs.

FluffyCalico
04-28-2009, 04:12 AM
Reason people hate monks is that yellow line.

Wu_Jen
04-28-2009, 05:28 AM
shuriken 1D2 (only ranged weapon)
Kamas 1D6
qstaff 1D6 (2handed weapon mind you)
30 sec buffs
handwraps = broken

other weapons that they are proficient with make them unbalanced and negate all benefits of being a monk

I would go on but Im afraid if I read my own list I may delete my monk.

Just go Mineral II GS Kama's 1D8 there. My balanced monk has GTWF and 2xMin II's.

Pyromaniac
04-28-2009, 06:04 AM
What are we monks doin to generate all this hate?

Ideas?

Cures?

Monks are generating hate because there's a ton of poor playing ones. Know your role, contribute the the success of the party, be a good player = get a solid reputation.

If you have a solid reputation there will be no hate.

I'll use the example I did in the shroud thread. I was willing (and did take) two monks into the same shroud run. Everyone I knew in party thought I was nuts. We also had two sorcs.

Even after being asked a few times to stay on the portals in part 1, the two monks ran all over the map trying for instakills. Sure they were capable of killing trash mobs, but so was every other character in the group.

Needless to say, they didn't get many kills as the sorcs started picking off the mobs as the monks got close. It reaffirmed that I will not invite any monk to shroud that I do not know as a player.

Sure this is not specific to the monk class, but my theory is that the monk class has a lot of poor players as its the 'cool/latest greatest class thing'. Just like we had poor WF 'cool robots' running around in the old days. Just like when we had drow casters with 8 con when drow first came out.

Monks do not need more love from Turbine, once the poor playing monks leave the class it will all be fine.

Maegin
04-28-2009, 10:34 AM
Caused by people who belive dps vs pit fiends is the only thing that matters in the game.

qft

feynman
04-28-2009, 03:59 PM
Monks are hated by ignorant people.

Many of them, yes, but not all.


Caused by monks that dont know how to play monks...

I'll agree with that.


Caused by forums about how low their dps suposebly is...

You can't hide from the truth, man.


Caused by people who belive dps vs pit fiends is the only thing that matters in the game.

But... ultimately, it is. I don't care how uber you are against every trash mob in the game, if you can't lay down the hurt on Big Ugly, you are a waste of space in a raid group. Sure, it's different in standard quests, but how many times do you need to run the crucible? The meat of the game is in the raids.

The problem is similar to that of pure rogues; their sneak attack is devastating, but it doesn't work all the time or against everything. Monks have some great debuff attacks, but they don't work on anything that lives for more than 5 seconds, and without the debuffs, we're just unarmed fighters in pajamas.

I think we can safely kiss GS handwraps goodbye, so we need something else to make up for it, something big. It should be a weapon, but handwraps in general are buggier than the "Insect" entry in Microsoft Encarta. Something like the shining cresents, maybe? A "staff" in name only, with better damage, a nice proc effect (force burst!) and an insight AC bonus?

NXPlasmid
04-28-2009, 04:07 PM
Many of them, yes, but not all.
But... ultimately, it is. I don't care how uber you are against every trash mob in the game, if you can't lay down the hurt on Big Ugly, you are a waste of space in a raid group. Sure, it's different in standard quests, but how many times do you need to run the crucible? The meat of the game is in the raids.

The problem is similar to that of pure rogues; their sneak attack is devastating, but it doesn't work all the time or against everything. Monks have some great debuff attacks, but they don't work on anything that lives for more than 5 seconds, and without the debuffs, we're just unarmed fighters in pajamas.

I think we can safely kiss GS handwraps goodbye, so we need something else to make up for it, something big. It should be a weapon, but handwraps in general are buggier than the "Insect" entry in Microsoft Encarta. Something like the shining cresents, maybe? A "staff" in name only, with better damage, a nice proc effect (force burst!) and an insight AC bonus?


your analysis is totally biased towards a very specific uber build, my monk is by no means uber but with holy burst handwraps he does pretty good damage against Harry, and in mod9 those dual GS min2 rangers are gonna get the nerf stick pretty hard and so monks will compare a lot better, and even though each attack doesn't do as much damage some of that is made up for by attack speed. Your knowledge of monks and the game is excellent but most people don't have characters that are built to the level that you consider to be worthwhile in a raid, which is kinda BS. So what if it takes 3 rounds instead or 1 or 2 to take down Harry?

feynman
04-28-2009, 05:06 PM
your analysis is totally biased towards a very specific uber build, my monk is by no means uber but with holy burst handwraps he does pretty good damage against Harry, and in mod9 those dual GS min2 rangers are gonna get the nerf stick pretty hard and so monks will compare a lot better, and even though each attack doesn't do as much damage some of that is made up for by attack speed.

I don't think it's biased; even a casual can cap a character and get halfway decent gear within a month or two. This wasn't an attack against you, or any monk for that matter, but towards the class. Anyone who has played both a monk and a real DPS character knows the difference, with or without min2 weapons (which, btw, my ranger does not use; triple positive and lightning strike ftw). As for attack speed, at best you are 10% faster; nothing to sneeze at, to be sure, but monks inflict quite a bit less than 90% of the damage of your run-of-the-mill tempest ranger.



Your knowledge of monks and the game is excellent but most people don't have characters that are built to the level that you consider to be worthwhile in a raid, which is kinda BS. So what if it takes 3 rounds instead or 1 or 2 to take down Harry?

3 rounds is fine, assuming that the clerics can hack it; it's the 5th round in a 3 monk group and Harry's still only at 30% when it becomes an issue (was in one of these last week). It simply limits the group composition; never more than 2 monks, if not 1, and preferably none.

And of course it has much to do with poorly built and/or played monks (resisting urge to rant about dex-monks :)), but do you think it's some coincidence that more poor players/builders are running around on monks than on any other class? Of course not. Nor is the "the class is new and people are learning how to play it" excuse acceptable, any more.

Deductive logic, then, tells us that the class as a whole is noticeably weaker than other classes, which fact is borne out by the math even without considering broken effects, lack of GS handwraps, etc.

You want to stop the hate? Then help us yell at the devs for monk improvements; the sooner monks can help a group as much as another class, the hate will die. Just look at rangers.

Comfortably
04-28-2009, 05:12 PM
I hate monks, for no reason, but because I can. (Kidding)

Comfortably
04-28-2009, 05:15 PM
partial solution:


Make the monks more of a martial artist

give them:

Longswords
light maces
hvy maces
daggers
slings or blunt missles like the festival coal
and a reason to use qstaffs
handwraps that work




this just for starters

Pfffft just give them Khopeshs already! :p

NXPlasmid
04-28-2009, 05:51 PM
I don't think it's biased; even a casual can cap a character and get halfway decent gear within a month or two. This wasn't an attack against you, or any monk for that matter, but towards the class.


No worries, I'm not taking anything personally. I do see many of your points and would like to see some of this stuff addressed/fixed by the devs but it's easy to screw up a monk build and so when you are starting out with a slightly weaker DPS melee and you really need 32pt builds to make them work, the deck is stacked against Monks. I think as support DPS they are fine, and if you spend some time thinking about the build and get good handwraps and Kamas for vorpal and wounding, Monks easily hold their own, much more so in quests rather than the shroud, or VoD. Also, for having one or two against Harry for walk of the sun +2 to hit helps out all the other power attacking DPSers, now if I could only get my hands on some holy handwraps of greater evil outsider bane and then I could be happy!

feynman
04-28-2009, 06:02 PM
No worries, I'm not taking anything personally. I do see many of your points and would like to see some of this stuff addressed/fixed by the devs but it's easy to screw up a monk build and so when you are starting out with a slightly weaker DPS melee and you really need 32pt builds to make them work, the deck is stacked against Monks. I think as support DPS they are fine, and if you spend some time thinking about the build and get good handwraps and Kamas for vorpal and wounding, Monks easily hold their own, much more so in quests rather than the shroud, or VoD. Also, for having one or two against Harry for walk of the sun +2 to hit helps out all the other power attacking DPSers, now if I could only get my hands on some holy handwraps of greater evil outsider bane and then I could be happy!

That one buff is nice; not fantastic, but nice. Other than that, we can hold our own against trash, but for damage on the big guys, you have to be built right. IMHO, that means some significant STR (to make up for the lack of crits), and even then, we will never rank with rangers or barbs.

I actually pulled some +4 anarchic handwraps of GEOB a few weeks ago, and no, you cannot have them :p

NXPlasmid
04-28-2009, 06:11 PM
I actually pulled some +4 anarchic handwraps of GEOB a few weeks ago, and no, you cannot have them :p

*turns green with jealousy*

Ikuryo
04-28-2009, 07:51 PM
In shroud against harry I normally use walk of the sun with align the heavens between rounds. Most runs only last 2-3 rounds and I'm some how pulling aggro rather often even if I'm a balanced build made to be healed easy. I normally use either the bane staff from Reaver or the +2 seeker +2 GEOB handwraps I found recently.

If only he was a lawful undead like sorjek. My anarchic burst of Greater Undead Bane work so well on him.. Still looking for some Holy burst of GEOB but I have hopes for after mod9 comes out.

Feylina
04-29-2009, 05:14 AM
Sorry not trolling the monk forum i was just looking for some build numbers and i came across this thread.

I'll be honest. i do hate monks. i consider them a giant waste of space in my party compared to any other class. when i form a non raid party i usually form like this.

Tank
Rogue
Cleric
Caster
Meaty dps
1 miscellaneous (2 if rogue not needed)

of those 2 miscellaneous spots i usually look for maybe a ranger for some twf luvvin or even a bard for buffs. i don't even have monk as an option anymore. i've just run across too many useless ones.

i look at what those extra members will contribute to the party, something like:

extra caster - more buffage / fw spell dps or even cc
ranger - twf luv in either fast vorpals or dps plus some spells that can take away sp pressure from cleric caster
bard - well bards are just great all around for buffs / back up healing etc
Meaty dps - that much more damage on bosses
cleric - i rarely if ever 2 cleric a mission. not necessary

then i think about monk as an option and i'm sorry but in every aspect the monk is a fail imo.

dps = lowest (argue it against certain builds but certainly there are better dps than monks)
buffs = they even have buffs?? or at least ones worth casting??? best one i saw so far was an anti stun buff for symbol in madstone
spells = um no

take into that the high ac with minimal hp. sure you won't get hit alot but when you do it counts and some spells will rip you apart.

i certainly do wish that they would do something to fix monks.

biggest thing i can think of is your special abilities that do **** for damage. at least put them on the level of smites for pete sake. buff crit range and multiplier and maybe you can compete. and most of your specials are just ********. press this prepare that get ready to what. tickle a mob til he wets himself?

honestly i think monks were implemented from pnp not taking into account the mob hp scaling that happened here.

ah well i'm starting to ramble sorry.

bottom line monks do suck right now. blame canada. i blame turbine for screwing up something that could have been worthwhile.

Delacroix21
04-29-2009, 07:54 AM
The truth is as we all know that monks were horribly implemented. I was so upset with their initial release that I ended up leaving DDO for a good 8 months, as I had felt they had wasted their time and mine by even releasing them. This was of course before TWF even worked with unarmed and monk unarmed was below sword and board.


The problem was and continues to be= strikes. They gave monks the worst crit multiplier and range as per PnP and knew their dps would suffer for it. To offset this, they assumed adding some elemental strikes would up our damage much the same way as paladin smites. The problem was they didnt really take allot of things into consideration with their strikes and finishing moves and thus they have not contributed enough to make up the dps loss.


The devs know they messed up on monks, and big time. There is only a tiny amount of developers and so being busy with the "new" content the rest of the DDO community wants, they cant find the time to go back and fix the class. I am sure they tell each other that they will get around to it eventually (just like fixing ranged combat) but it just never seems to happen. At the very least they could add daggers to the centered list or add that longsword feat to tide us over till monks are fixed (unarmed has to be completely recoded before gsteel wraps), but even that doesnt seem a priority. At least with druids they are on the verge of scrapping them due to not being able to make shapeshifting viable, but if they do release them they had better have fixed this.

Greydeath
04-29-2009, 08:16 AM
my monk is by no means uber but with holy burst handwraps he does pretty good damage against Harry
First, this is SO wrong you need to give your head a shake. You would do MORE damage with a transmuter. **** like this is WHY we have hate in the first place! :mad:


and in mod9 those dual GS min2 rangers are gonna get the nerf stick pretty hard and so monks will compare a lot better
Also incorrect...


and even though each attack doesn't do as much damage some of that is made up for by attack speed.
While wildly misleading, this is not actually wrong... Although unarmed is the fastest of the attack rates, it is only marginally so and its DPS addition is literally insignificant. But yes, unarmed Monks can attack fastest - way to obfuscate the issue :rolleyes:


Your knowledge of monks and the game is excellent but most people don't have characters that are built to the level that you consider to be worthwhile in a raid, which is kinda BS. So what if it takes 3 rounds instead or 1 or 2 to take down Harry?
It is pretty widely acceptable that of the competent Monk builders/players fey is the worst - not that that invalidates your point, but his standards are pretty low for what would be considered an acceptable Monk.

In any event, the fact remains that regardless of what role you want a Monk to fill in a party, there WILL be another class/build that does it better.

feynman
04-29-2009, 08:17 AM
The truth is as we all know that monks were horribly implemented. I was so upset with their initial release that I ended up leaving DDO for a good 8 months, as I had felt they had wasted their time and mine by even releasing them. This was of course before TWF even worked with unarmed and monk unarmed was below sword and board.

QFT


The problem was and continues to be= strikes. They gave monks the worst crit multiplier and range as per PnP and knew their dps would suffer for it. To offset this, they assumed adding some elemental strikes would up our damage much the same way as paladin smites. The problem was they didnt really take allot of things into consideration with their strikes and finishing moves and thus they have not contributed enough to make up the dps loss.

Well, lack of dps is the problem; strikes are only one aspect of it, but it's the same idea.


The devs know they messed up on monks, and big time. There is only a tiny amount of developers and so being busy with the "new" content the rest of the DDO community wants, they cant find the time to go back and fix the class. I am sure they tell each other that they will get around to it eventually (just like fixing ranged combat) but it just never seems to happen. At the very least they could add daggers to the centered list or add that longsword feat to tide us over till monks are fixed (unarmed has to be completely recoded before gsteel wraps), but even that doesnt seem a priority. At least with druids they are on the verge of scrapping them due to not being able to make shapeshifting viable, but if they do release them they had better have fixed this.

Then they should be doing it quick and dirty:

1. Monks: Have fire and earth stance increase crit multiplier, and air and water increase crit range. If both scale with level (up to +4), this alone would fix monks, and before anyone says "overpowered!", remember that we're at the bottom of the dps pile now, and at best, this would give us either a 19-20/x5 or 15-20/x2 crit profile (with IC), hardly a major disruption to class balance; handwraps would be sweet, but without GS, I think it would balance out. Any of a number of other quick, easy solutions would also work.

2. Druids: If they can't get shapechange to work, come at it differently; I always thought Tenser's was supposed to change the way you look, but the implementation here is just the purple glowing magical armor. Do something similar for druids and put them in the friggin' game, already. Half the spells are already there, from the cleric and ranger lists, so mix up the code for lightning bolt and ice storm to make lightning strike, and let's go!

Am I the only one who would rather see this than 6 more months of 4 quests and a raid?

feynman
04-29-2009, 08:28 AM
First, this is SO wrong you need to give your head a shake. You would do MORE damage with a transmuter. **** like this is WHY we have hate in the first place! :mad:

Dude, don't come in here if you don't actually play the game, all right?


Also incorrect...

Eh, exaggerated; the nerf stick is only of medium size.


While wildly misleading, this is not actually wrong... Although unarmed is the fastest of the attack rates, it is only marginally so and its DPS addition is literally insignificant. But yes, unarmed Monks can attack fastest - way to obfuscate the issue :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what your point here is; dps = damage * speed. Ergo, more speed = more dps, and is exactly equal in effect as a similar increase in damage. I would not call 10% "insignificant".


It is pretty widely acceptable that of the competent Monk builders/players fey is the worst - not that that invalidates your point, but his standards are pretty low for what would be considered an acceptable Monk.

Lol, "widely acceptable" meaning you and 3 other guys? And an ad hominem attack in a conversation you weren't even a part of; fallacious and rude, nice combo.


In any event, the fact remains that regardless of what role you want a Monk to fill in a party, there WILL be another class/build that does it better.

Thank you for rehashing the last 8 months of monk forum debate. Did you have something to add, or was this just a drive-by troll?

Delacroix21
04-29-2009, 08:50 AM
Rangers arent really being nerfed at all, just a tiny tweak. They are losing 1 damage from rams might (big deal), and tempest counting as a shield bonus so wont stack with shield clickes (a max 2ac loss, also big deal).


1. I dont think they will ever go for stances increasing the crit range and multiplier, may have to wait for a PrC to do that.
2. Another poster suggested a nice change for stances being at tier 3 and 4 you lose 1 pt of opposite stat penalty, so at tier 4 you get +4 stat and no minus stat.
3. They seem married to these strikes, as I think monks were an attempt at bringing some 4th edition style combat to DDO (which would rock) but wasnt implemented well.
4. Beefing up strike damage, and adding damage to finishers could fix monk dps and make it "unique"
5. Doubling current strike damage, and adding an elemental damage effect to elemental finishers (in additon to the status effect that has no use on named) would come a long way in fixing monk dps, while still keeping the original flavor of the class
6. Adding greensteel wraps would also be excellent (past 2 mods have had ZERO raid handwraps, even the "monk" mod didnt add them!)


Realisticaly though every class with a PrC gains an advantage over those without (Tempest is a fine example), and barbs, fighters, and paladins PrCs will further make monks dps seem more worthless, their tanking ability non-existant by comparison, and their spots in raids all but dry up. Monks CAN NOT compete in mod 9 vs. these other classes once PrCs are considered, fixing them needs to be a priority. I dont want to wait 6 months.

Monkey_Archer
04-29-2009, 08:52 AM
First, this is SO wrong you need to give your head a shake. You would do MORE damage with a transmuter. **** like this is WHY we have hate in the first place! :mad:


This is not neccesarily true... which leads to confusion, and makes monk weapon choices difficult.

It completely depends on mob DR, what is on that transmuter and what handwraps you compare it to.

-Handwraps do average 9 damage(2d8), kamas are average 3.5(d6) or 4.5 for greensteel. So thats 4.5-5.5 more damage per hit.
-A transmuter can only be of pure good, while handwraps can be holy/holy burst... which is another 3.5+ damage added to the handwraps.
-Unarmed is also ~8-10% faster then kamas
-Unarmed also uses full strength for offhand (usually 4-6 extra damage for offhand, or 2-3damage per attack).

So add that up and you have handwraps doing 10-12 more damage per hit + increased attack speed.
In this case... holy handwraps are better then a transmuting kama of pure good up to around DR15 (which just happens to be harry's DR on normal)

Holy silver kamas of pure good are a diffent story :)

Rafal
04-29-2009, 12:24 PM
I built my monk without looking on any special builds posted on forums and just did it based on my hunch. :)
I was told many times already that my build is wrong because I do not have a max AC but just about 55-60 when buffed (questions like: "so why build a monk?") and I heard sometimes that monks suck from some people when I wanted to join a group. Funny thing is I can not see it from my experience. For sure I have less DPS then some tricked out barbs or rangers but I can deal pretty decent dps in most cases. I have 32 STR (almost 100% in a fire stand) and I am mostly using wraps and rarely kamas (for vorpal and stat damage). Against bosses like Harry or Sally I am getting all red numbers with my +4 holy burst or +5 shocking burst wraps. In SoS my +5 acid of G undead work pretty well. In one hound, when everything was going south I got him aggroed on me and kept it for quite a time until a group reorganized and I stayed alive with no healing. I just love immunities and saves which let me solo bosses from Enter the Kobold with hardly taking damage. In a shroud in fact I hadly take much anyway and no cleric needs to worry about me when they cast a mass cure from time to time cause it's all I need to keep my red bar full. From reading some threads it looks for me like many people are trying to min/max a monk and they are going for the best AC gimping dps to the point of uselessness. Make it a more balanced character and it's not really so bad. I never liked to make a character which can deal some crazy damage at a cost of being fully cleric dependent. I like my characters to survive in hard conditions but still contribute a good deal and my monk is this kind of a character. I actually even got most kills in a VoD hard run (I know it was a pure luck :)) and killed some of the tough bosses when everybody was giving up calling a wipe.
I would like some more dps for sure (GS wraps would work I guess) I would like some good shirukens (looks like there is a total shortage of these in general) but I am quite happy about my monk and I do not have as many problems to get into raid groups like some here claim (I actually raid 90% of my play time).

feynman
04-29-2009, 03:36 PM
I built my monk without looking on any special builds posted on forums and just did it based on my hunch. :)
I was told many times already that my build is wrong because I do not have a max AC but just about 55-60 when buffed (questions like: "so why build a monk?") and I heard sometimes that monks suck from some people when I wanted to join a group. Funny thing is I can not see it from my experience. For sure I have less DPS then some tricked out barbs or rangers but I can deal pretty decent dps in most cases. I have 32 STR (almost 100% in a fire stand) and I am mostly using wraps and rarely kamas (for vorpal and stat damage). Against bosses like Harry or Sally I am getting all red numbers with my +4 holy burst or +5 shocking burst wraps. In SoS my +5 acid of G undead work pretty well. In one hound, when everything was going south I got him aggroed on me and kept it for quite a time until a group reorganized and I stayed alive with no healing. I just love immunities and saves which let me solo bosses from Enter the Kobold with hardly taking damage. In a shroud in fact I hadly take much anyway and no cleric needs to worry about me when they cast a mass cure from time to time cause it's all I need to keep my red bar full. From reading some threads it looks for me like many people are trying to min/max a monk and they are going for the best AC gimping dps to the point of uselessness. Make it a more balanced character and it's not really so bad. I never liked to make a character which can deal some crazy damage at a cost of being fully cleric dependent. I like my characters to survive in hard conditions but still contribute a good deal and my monk is this kind of a character. I actually even got most kills in a VoD hard run (I know it was a pure luck :)) and killed some of the tough bosses when everybody was giving up calling a wipe.
I would like some more dps for sure (GS wraps would work I guess) I would like some good shirukens (looks like there is a total shortage of these in general) but I am quite happy about my monk and I do not have as many problems to get into raid groups like some here claim (I actually raid 90% of my play time).

Nice; looks like my build :)

Careful, they'll start calling you names for it.

joker965
04-29-2009, 04:03 PM
As a cleric player I love having a monk in the party. You don't have to worry about them very much if they are played well and they can occupy an orange or red named all by themselves on elite even. (if built well of course).

VS. Harry it is very handy to have a monk attacking harry as i don't need to worry about him going down in .2 seconds and wasting a mass heal or heal.

Thoughts?

zavozod
05-10-2009, 04:19 AM
Monks played by good players ROCK! Monks in bad players hands BUNK! DpS is what it is. Lacking? Maybe, but I trade a lil Dam for a lot of gain. AC,Saves, ability to rez. For a ding to DpS. When I see those huge smite critz from my pally r a bloodstone driven MinII GA crit I belive monk DpS is busted. When I do get out and play my monk I am blown away by my ability to survive and go toe to toe with mobs and bosses. I do not drain resources from the support classes by dying and needing rebuffed. It may take me a 3rd to twice as long to get the job done in melee. BUT at the end of the day it cost myself and others less to play with me in the grp. I have talked 3 monk haters into trying out a monk. Guess what they LOVE it!!!

twoton
05-10-2009, 06:55 AM
I am what I consider a real "casual gamer" I dont raid very much if at all. I have only done 2 shroud raids since it came out. Yes it takes me longer than 2 months to lvl a toon to cap.

I know GS weapons are the bomb and all the extra dmg added by crafting makes toons dps higher than what their actual build can generate with regular weapons. Maybe I dont run with hard core gammers that have the time to have 2 GS weapons that own everything in game. Because I usually own most of quests Im in with a pug or guilding it up.

I do have a question though what is the avg base dmg unbuffed from other melee classes? my lvl 12 monk is sitting at a 19 base dmg will end up being 20 at 16 ( already have +6 str gloves) and stayin in windstance I generate alot of dmg per sec in a short amount of time. I have built pallys, barbs, multiclass builds and I have to say per sec a monk cranks it out.

I am completely sold out to windstance for dps. What I have to say is for you other str build monks out there dump fire stance and pick up windstance. Try it out and get back to me. losing 1 to 2 points of dmg for a xtra 7.5 on top of your 10% over normal attack speed completely makes up for it.

I think alot of monk hate is due to poor builds or poor playstyle of the monk but also just having the right handwraps will make a huge difference. Greater banes people greater banes.

What is it about monks cant pull aggro? I pull aggro off other party memebers alot of times not saying all the time but enough. Are people really just build monks for AC? Do people really think a monk has to have a high AC because they think monks cant get into high HP? Its easy to get a monk into the mid 300 HP range without greater false life item.

I would love to see what my monk could do in the hands of a high twitch player. Im a good player but by no means uber elite. I dont even start using ki strikes till I get tier 3 wind strike.

Anyways start pulling my comments to shreds and telling me how wrong I am on everything I said because you are so much smarter than me about monks.

Gordo
05-10-2009, 07:23 AM
When Monks came out, I think peeps failed to take into account that there were 4 stats that needed to be balanced. The concept of making them high AC builds only was a recipe for disaster. I find that many of the poorly played monks (especially in the beginning) may have had a high AC but either no HP and certainly no DPS.

The Monk, for better or for worse, requires quite a bit of "clicking" to receive the additional fluff required to make you "better" as opposed to "average". I think this also makes it a class prone to being played poorly.

Stats:
I built my monk almost completely balanced between Str, Dex, Con, Wis.
I can use all 4 stances and will be able to use the highest levels of all 4 stances at end game (requires 18 base stats in the above 4 ability scores).

AC:
With generic party buffs I can easily get to a 65 - 70 AC. The point here is I use buffs to get there and not a base AC of 70 so that I have no DPS. This may be laughable to power AC builds but let's ask ourselves how important, ultimately, 85 AC is as opposed to 65 AC for almost all content in the game? How many other things, however, were sacrificed to get that additional 20 AC?

Weapons
I use wraps almost exclusively (Weapon Finesse).
When not using wraps I only use (GTWF) Vorpal Kamas.

Saves
All of my saves - even in Lightning Stance - are at 30+ (GH incl.)
34+ in Water Stance... I never fail ANY save except on "a one".

HP
403 HP with GFL

Final thoughts...
IMO, the Ranger builds with a splash of Monk became the preferred builds for the AC whilst still getting good DPS. Look around - they're everywhere. Monk AC only builds are derided by those that are correct in doing so but also MANY others who simply say Monks overall are bad and yet have NEVER even played one. So is life in DDO LOL...

Monks are not given good weps. (wraps and kamas only x2 crit on a 20 only are farcical at best) but we make do with proper play style.

If done correctly you can make a Monk that (essentially) never gets hit, has high HP for when you do, never fails a save, and can contribute nicely to a party in kills.


My name is Sifu and I approve this message :-)

Greydeath
05-10-2009, 07:48 AM
Dude, don't come in here if you don't actually play the game, all right?People that cannot follow their own advice should refrain from giving it to others :rolleyes:




Eh, exaggerated; the nerf stick is only of medium size.Trading 1 damage and ~2AC for additional attacks and favorite enemy damage (plus an additional FE as well) is what we that actually play the game call a "buff" :eek:




I'm not sure what your point here is; dps = damage * speed. Ergo, more speed = more dps, and is exactly equal in effect as a similar increase in damage. I would not call 10% "insignificant".
I actually agree. The word I should have used is IRRELEVANT. gfunk has a great TWF Damage thread - it behoves you to reference it. When there are builds that easily do TWICE the damage (and many much more), doing 10% more than what little Monks do IS insignificant. :(



Lol, "widely acceptable" meaning you and 3 other guys?Mind explaining to us again just how much better the Quarterstaff is than TWF? (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=155021)


Thank you for rehashing the last 8 months of monk forum debate. Did you have something to add, or was this just a drive-by troll?

When you have something to refute the problem let us know. Otherwise if you wish to live in your non-DDO world and continue pretending that there is no problem, please stop misinforming others... :mad:

Greydeath
05-10-2009, 08:03 AM
I was told many times already that my build is wrong because I do not have a max AC but just about 55-60 when buffed (questions like: "so why build a monk?")Certainly not 'wrong' per say, but 60AC is at the low end of usefulness now, and if the Mod9 preview was any indication, 60AC will simply no longer be useful at all... The fact that you need to be buffed to reach those numbers means your base AC is only marginal for trash currently; hopefully, you did not invest heavily in order to reach the number you are at...

The question while presumtious is nevertheless valid: there are builds available that will do more damage with better AC and be able to match saves and similar abilities...



I heard sometimes that monks suck from some people when I wanted to join a group. Unfortunate, but generally true. Of all the roles that Monks fulfill some other class does it better... The fact that many Monk builds and Monk players DO indeed suck only makes it worse. Regretably Mod9 does not seem to change this :(



I can deal pretty decent dps in most cases.
Unlikely given the actual numbers. Against trash Monks can do well, especially when Stunning, etc - but 'decent DPS' is NOT what Monks do...



Against bosses like Harry or Sally I am getting all red numbers with my +4 holy burst or +5 shocking burst wraps.
A - no you are not
or
B - you are bugged

More than likely A, but I suppose we cannot rule out B. For the vast majority of the rest of us, unless you bypass the DR you are NOT getting all red numbers and you are NOT bypassing the DR with wraps.

Mod9 may or may not fix this, but while they claim to have reintroduced Transmuting wraps (and that they will really work this time, no reallya this time we promise) given their past record of delivery I am skeptical. However, given the Transmuting NERF this is hardly what we are looking for since TofPG will be the only bypassable wraps...:mad:

Gorstag
05-10-2009, 08:07 AM
The reason I detest monks is simple. Lack of dps. If at a minimum your not capable of averaging 65+ points of damage on a non critical attack at minimum (85+ is ok, 100+ prefered). Your taking up space in the group as a melee. And no, monk attack speed does not make up for this, period!

UnderwearModel
05-10-2009, 08:14 AM
A few monks are well played, many monks are not.

I pugged with a poorly played monk recently in Gianthold. Death was a common feature for that monk. I was unsure as to why that monk continued to charge in to battle only to die again. It became an annoyance.

I created a monk when it came out, took him to 10th level. I discovered handwraps were broken. Since I cannot play him well, I quit playing him. That class is not for me.

Someday I will roll up a barbarian. The other eight classes are fun for me.

I learned my lesson, if you cannot play a monk, STOP playing a monk.

baddax
05-10-2009, 02:13 PM
A few monks are well played, many monks are not.



I learned my lesson, if you cannot play a monk, STOP playing a monk.

This needs to be said of any class. however some classes require more skill than others to play effectively.

twoton
05-10-2009, 03:01 PM
The reason I detest monks is simple. Lack of dps. If at a minimum your not capable of averaging 65+ points of damage on a non critical attack at minimum (85+ is ok, 100+ prefered). Your taking up space in the group as a melee. And no, monk attack speed does not make up for this, period!

I think this is whats wrong with how people view a monk. I did not know we played a turned based game I thought it was real time mmo I could be wrong.

How can people sit there and say dps is a per swing in this game and speed has nothing to do with it? If a monk is getting off about 2 to 3 swings to a fighter or barb 1 swing and the dmg = to about the same how is it not the same thing?

I did a few timed trials on my monk with windstance and he could crank about 10 attacks in 2.2 seconds. Speed doesnt matter? It also means a monk is getting a attack off every .22 seconds.

Lets see the faster you get through your attack chain the more chances you have to hit plus the more dmg you will be doing.

I did a time trial on my pally fighter build and it took him 2.75 seconds to get through 5 attacks. Then I put a greataxe in his hands and it took him 2.9 seconds to get through 5 attacks.

Remember though speed doesnt matter. You guys out there and I know Im not the only one. Anytime some pugger takes notice of your monk build as you own a quest and kill everything in front of you remind them that monks cant dps. Its our little secret. I would hate to it to get out that monks are a good class because then everyone and the grandmother would want to play one again then the bad builds would start all over.

Gorstag
05-10-2009, 04:16 PM
No, speed swing does not matter as much for a monk because they lack the dps to get much damage through dr. And Your not going to be getting 2 - 3 swings to a fighters one, maybe 1.3 - 1.5 at best to 1. So let's go with best of 1.5 for maximizing purposes. This is with a hasted twf fighter, not even a tempest ranger.

for example, say your fighting a mob with a 15 dr/-.

If that fighter is hitting for 65 then 50 points get through per swing. Now then lets say that the monk was averaging 40 points of damage a hit, now he is down to a mere 25 points of damage per hit.

(fighter) 50 points of damage per hit as per fighter (50 X 1)
(monk) 37.5 points of damge per fighter hit (25 x 1.5)

Now as the quest continues this gap on widens further, and this is with a weak fighter and an average monk.

Now then, let put then on powergamer standards. Same dr, but now with a more dps specced fighter for damage and a dps specced monk. 100 points per swing vs 55 for a monk aginst a simple dr 15 mob (Still not maxed dps for fighter, but still up there. Though from my knowledge this is getting pretty close to max for a monk)

(Fighter) 85 points of damage per hit (85 x 1)
(Monk) 60 points of damage per fighter hit (40 x 1.5)

Now then, you show me a monk that can average more than 55 points of damage on a non-crit hit, and I might change my mind. Though criticals is another story all together, as monk crit 19 - 20 and only for x2 damage, while other melee's well, I do not even have to explain that one I hope. Don't even put greensteel into the mix, the gap is even further apart now.

Monks honestly have no chance of hanging with dps specc'd melees, which 95% of end game melees are or should be anyway. THough they can slightly edge out a S & B toon. Yes, a monks speed factor does not even come close to evening out their dps compared to twf fighters, rangers, rogues and twf/thf barbs.

Brother_Solar
05-10-2009, 05:46 PM
As much as I hate to admit it, Gorstag is correct. All gear being equal except the monk lacking Greensteel handwraps to match a GTWF Greensteel weapon, a monk is doing only 50% to 80% of the damage a GTWF weapon user is.

We know that the monk swings faster. How much faster? According to Cforce’s attack speed analysis (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819&highlight=cforce), a level 16 unarmed monk with GTWF will get off 90 attacks with main hand and 90 attacks with offhand in the space of one minute. A base attack bonus 16 GTWF weapon user will get 83 attacks with main hand and 83 attacks with offhand in one minute. So a GTWF unarmed monk has a total of 14 more attacks per minute than a GTWF weapon user.

For the sake of simplicity, I’ll add in speed boosts (both haste and wind stance) as flat percentage adjustments later on.

Now, for specific comparison of weapon damage and effects.

Let’s assume that the GTWF weapon user is using a pair of Min II Greensteel Kopesh (Holy, Acid Burst, Acid Blast).

Let's give the monk some of the coveted +1 Holy Burst Handwraps of Greater Evil Outsider Bane (effectively a +5 weapon vs. Harry).

Let’s make both competitors Warforged because… well, just because.
The GTWF weapon (let’s make it a kopesh, because they’re ridiculous) user gets to start out with an 18 strength because he can afford to.
The GTWF unarmed monk can only start out with 16 strength at most because he’s got to put points into Wisdom too.

Here comes some bastardization of gfunk’s numbers (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2086688&postcount=46)for my own nefarious purposes:

GTWF Warforged Kopesh User Damage Numbers at Level 16
Main / Offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon bonus
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
(leaving out class enhancements since I didn’t specify a class, just note that more numbers would go here)
.......... .. 34 unbuffed str (18bse, 4 lvlup, 3 enh, 6 item, 3 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
15 / 7 .. 40 str (total)
36 / 28 .. total damage modifier
41.5 / 33.5 .. avg regular damage (5.5 dmg for GS Kopesh)
142.5 / 118.5 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ Bloodstone)
29.05 / 23.45 .. weighted reg damage (*14/20)
35.625 / 29.625 .. weighted crit damage (*5/20)
7.6 / 7.6 Tharnes
72.275 / 60.675 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.75 / 2.75 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*5/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.8 / 15.8 .. total weapon effects

88.075 / 76.475 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects

83 / 83 .. # of attacks per minute
7310.225 / 6347.425 .. damage per minute
13657.65 .. total damage in 60 seconds
227.6275 .. damage per second


Now for the Monk:

GTWF Warforged Unarmed Monk Damage Numbers at Level 16
Main / Offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon bonus
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
8 / 8 .. power attack
.......... .. 28 unbuffed str (16bse, 4 lvlup, 6 item, 2 tome)
........... .. 2 str (rage)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 1)
........... .. 2 str (madstone 2)
12 / 12 .. 34 str (total)
33 / 33 .. total damage modifier
42 / 42 .. avg regular damage (9 dmg for unarmed at lvl 16)
96 / 96 .. avg crit damage (+6 dmg to crits w/ Bloodstone)
35.7 / 35.7 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
9.6 / 9.6 .. weighted crit damage (*2/20) …(/cry)
7.6 / 7.6 Tharnes
52.9 / 52.9 .. Average unhasted damage per swing

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy (7*19/20)
1.05 / 1.05 .. 3d6 holy burst (10.5*2/20)
9.975 / 9.975 .. 3d6 Greater Evil Outsider Bane (10.5*19/20)
17.675 / 17.675 .. total weapon effects

-15 / -15 .. Harry’s damage reduction (it is 15, right?)

55.575 / 55.575 .. base + sneak attack + weapon effects – damage reduction

90 / 90 .. # of attacks per minute
5001.75 / 5001.75 .. damage per minute
10003.5 .. total damage in 60 secondds
166.725 .. damage per second


Right, so I didn’t include haste effects. We don’t really have a great equation for them, since they seem to vary depending on who is doing the counting, so I’m just going to use flat percentage increases.

Kopesh guy gets hasted: 227.6275*1.25 = 284.534 damage per second
Monk gets hasted and in Wind III: 166.725*1.325 = 220.91 damage per second

Simulation result (barring fat-fingered calculator errors and typos):
Monk is doing 220.91 / 284.534 = 0.776 or 77.6% of the damage the GS kopesh user is doing against Harry, and that’s WITHOUT giving the weapon user any kinds of enhancements that could further boost his damage (and it would go up by a lot if we added those enhancements, be they ranger favored enemy or fighter weapon specialization).

Monks need to be able to bypass that damage reduction with their unarmed strikes to even approach being able to be competitive.

Now I go mow my lawn and wait for someone to come forward with corrections to my numbers (I didn't check my work). :p

twoton
05-10-2009, 06:11 PM
my bad I forgot there was only one quest in the game and its a raid that a monk cant by pass the bosses dr. Your right Im wrong monks are worthless for this whole game. No point in ever making a monk because a monk cant bypass the dr of 2 raid bosses. Stupid me I thought there were other quests that people run but I am wrong.

Just tell me one thing. How do you explain how I can run past the first mob and kill the second mob before 2 other melee classes take down the first without using ki strikes? I mean since my monk cant dps how does this happen in game?

Monkey_Archer
05-10-2009, 06:15 PM
Monks need to be able to bypass that damage reduction with their unarmed strikes to even approach being able to be competitive.

Now I go mow my lawn and wait for someone to come forward with corrections to my numbers (I didn't check my work). :p

You forgot ki strikes...
A smart monk will use firestance during trash mobs to build up ki, then unleash on harry in wind stance.
At best, you can add up to 9 damage per hit by cycling through earth3, earth2, shock3, shock2, darkness...
Most monks though will either not have all these strikes or mess up somewhere... but at least 5 damage per hit should be expected.

I agree though... monks should be able to bypass his DR.

without transmuting and ki strikes the monk is missing 20 damage per hit...

Brother_Solar
05-10-2009, 06:49 PM
You forgot ki strikes...
A smart monk will use firestance during trash mobs to build up ki, then unleash on harry in wind stance.
At best, you can add up to 9 damage per hit by cycling through earth3, earth2, shock3, shock2, darkness...
Most monks though will either not have all these strikes or mess up somewhere... but at least 5 damage per hit should be expected.

I agree though... monks should be able to bypass his DR.

without transmuting and ki strikes the monk is missing 20 damage per hit...
I didn't so much forget them as I remembered them and didn't put them in since I have no way of accurately modeling their influence. Ki strikes DO increase a monk's damage, but they are anything but consistent. I use them continuously (Wind III > Wind II > Earth III > Earth II > Earth I would be my rotation, being a Fist of Light monk), but sometimes latency or just plain buggyness will keep the server from acknowledging my strikes. Sometimes I'll go 5 seconds mashing a Ki strike button without it going off, and rather than my ideal rotation, my rotation will look something like Wind III > Wind II > Earth III repeating just because by the time I get Earth III off, it took so long that Wind III has been off cooldown for a second or two already.

I suppose I could go tack in a number somewhere to represent them though.


my bad I forgot there was only one quest in the game and its a raid that a monk cant by pass the bosses dr. Your right Im wrong monks are worthless for this whole game. No point in ever making a monk because a monk cant bypass the dr of 2 raid bosses. Stupid me I thought there were other quests that people run but I am wrong.

Just tell me one thing. How do you explain how I can run past the first mob and kill the second mob before 2 other melee classes take down the first without using ki strikes? I mean since my monk cant dps how does this happen in game?
Why are you so upset? I've never said monks are useless at all. My +1 Holy Burst Handwraps of Greater Undead Bane make me a great asset for Sorjek. It's just unfortunate that people don't run SOS as much as they run the Shroud.

There are, however, two raid bosses that make us EXTREMELY sub-par. Who goes into the Shroud and has problems with the trash? The most resource consuming fights in the instance are the pit fiend fights, and better DPS makes them soooo much smoother! How many raids are there in DDO that you participate in on a regular basis? There's the Shroud, the Hound, Reaver, and VOD. People don't do the others often because getting set up for them is extremely inconvenient. That's two out of five where monks are sub-par as melee DPS on the most important fights in the raid.

Guess what we're going to be fighting in Mod 9? More Pit Fiends, of course. That means more raid fights where monks unlikely to be desireable.

Not that it matters much to me, since I'm a casual player who raids once a week and only with my guild. :o Still, it would be nice NOT to be automatically disqualified from pug Shroud groups on the basis of my class alone.

Monkey_Archer
05-10-2009, 06:57 PM
The easiest way i've found to do ki strikes is let go of the attack button when you hit the strike.
My monk doesnt have all the earth strikes so im not achiving max either, but if you have 5-6 effective strikes to use you can keep your attack chain going by using nothing but strikes... and never even have to hit your right mouse button.

Brother_Solar
05-10-2009, 07:15 PM
The easiest way i've found to do ki strikes is let go of the attack button when you hit the strike.
My monk doesnt have all the earth strikes so im not achiving max either, but if you have 5-6 effective strikes to use you can keep your attack chain going by using nothing but strikes... and never even have to hit your right mouse button.
In theory, yes, but in practice that method does not work so well for me. If I do nothing but hit continuous ki strikes, I've noticed that my attack animation will stutter and sometime my monk will stand still for a moment before continuing on to the next strike. How much DPS is being lost due to that disconnect? I wasn't certain, and there is no good way to measure it (WTB exportable combat log), so I decided to always keep the attack button held down (which leads to the aforementioned issue).

That brings up a good point though. Even with the stutter, it may be worthwhile to use the consecutive ki strike button mashing technique if the over-all damage increase is significant compared to the DPS time lost. *shrug* The delay in activated abilities is something that Codog has responded to (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2164214&postcount=1435), and it will hopefully be addressed sometime in the future.

twoton
05-10-2009, 07:18 PM
I am mad because anytime I bring up that monks dps is fine someone brings up the 2 raid bosses that monks cant bypass their dr. Like thats the only dps that matters. Does it matter yes it does. Does it bother me yeah kind of but then again I just dont take my monk to the shroud kind of pointless for him to be in there anyways. If I want to pull large scales I just take my gimped ass WF pally fighter that has lower dps than my monk and nobody seems to care. Its all in the icon that by your name we all know that.

I am sure that when the devs talk about adding rings into the game for monks to wear it will probably be something along the lines of the etheral bracers except it will make your fists transumting or something like that I am thinking. Because that the only thing a monk cant get is transmuting because they already get feats to bypass certain dr types. Now if they would have just made a lvl 16 monk feat transmuting fists we wouldnt even be having this discussion instead be talking about the different players that just dont know how to play a monk.

But yes I stay out of places I know my class is not wanted I know many people cant stand monks because we cant bypass dr and we dont have weakening but they funny thing is everything else works just fine and people still dont like monks for regular quests.

What is even worse is I see people still trying to make kama monk builds I try to tell them dont do it and they dont listen. So then you have another monk build out there that has even lower dps than a handwrap monk so then people see that monk and say man that monk only got 8 kills the whole quest monks must suck. Then you have monk build that has never lost in a kill count race without running over to kill something that someone else is working on unless they are taking to long to kill it and people are blown away and ask you what your using on your monk or what kind of build your monk is.

Why cant someone answer me my question about that. Why is it I can run past a few mobs take out the second group of mobs before the other meleers finish with the first set of mobs? Why? since monks cant dps there must be a glitch in the game or something. I see it in every quest I run and yes I lvled a a dex monk to cap and working on lvling a str based monk to cap (at lvl 12 now).

I took my lvl 12 monk to the vale yesterday and I thought he was done for and he held is own very well to my suprise even with a bunch of lvl 15 and 16's in the group. Maybe I just dont understand how dps works I guess.

Dont get me wrong I have tried to lvl a barb got him to lvl 10 and just got tired at how slow he took stuff out. I built him right max str WF with PA greataxe user for max dps and since I already capped a monk I was just used to droping stuff faster. Granted yes its trash mobs but guess what trash mobs make up about 90% of the game.

I cant be to mad about people only wanting to take certian classes into the shroud though it helps me build up cash for little to no work with my pally going along to get large ingrendents. He paid for my monk to have some boots of the innocent and the funny thing is people still ask for his help :P I mean hell is base dmg is like +11 LOL even though my strt based monk couldnt bypass his dr he would still do more dmg than my pally that has a transmuter LOL oh well just keep earning the easy money I guess :)

Gorstag
05-10-2009, 07:56 PM
Did not mean to offend with monk dps and all but there are a few well built and well played monks out there. Problem is that there are twenty bad ones to one good. Same problem rangers had back in the day as well as rogues to some extent now. I do see monks getting a boost eventually though just as rangers did. But right now, overall, I would rather have a S&B melee in my groups than 95% of the monks out there, and I do not even want S&B's.

Beherit_Baphomar
05-10-2009, 08:02 PM
suposebly.

I had to...

Aspenor
05-10-2009, 08:11 PM
i detest sexy arcane gnomes

Greydeath
05-10-2009, 08:28 PM
my bad I forgot there was only one quest in the game and its a raid that a monk cant by pass the bosses dr. Your right Im wrong monks are worthless for this whole game. No point in ever making a monk because a monk cant bypass the dr of 2 raid bosses. Stupid me I thought there were other quests that people run but I am wrong.

Just tell me one thing. How do you explain how I can run past the first mob and kill the second mob before 2 other melee classes take down the first without using ki strikes? I mean since my monk cant dps how does this happen in game?

Although your own statement is contradictory (1 quest, 2 bosses, etc) there are at least FOUR (4) raids that Monks cannot bypass DR.

But if you actually read what we are saying, we are pointing out that Monk DPS is poor, NOT that Monks are worthless or that there is no point to making a Monk. We just do not want to see more **** poor monks that have no clue as to the way things actually work. Yes, pretty much any Monk role could be replaced by a better build based around some other class - there is simply no getting around that.

Certainly Monks can do fine, but it is imperative to realize that something ELSE would do better :o

Anecdotal evidence being what it is, we really can only speculate on what you are claiming. I have no idea: perhaps you run with melee gimps? Perhaps they are sandbagging and piking off you? Are they actually TRYING to kill it? Is yours an easier mob to kill? It is even within the realm of possibility that your mobility bonus allows you to get to the second mob and kill it before they reach the first... Essentially your story simply does not prove anything :rolleyes:

Trash is just that: TRASH - it should not be difficult to kill (if you even need to kill it - just run by most of it). And against Trash Monks can do fine, especially with their stuns. But killing trash does not complete quests and it certainly does not win raids. Where DPS matters, Monks border on EPIC Failure.

My Elf Wizard melees mobs very effectively, but just because I may kill a mob faster than than the other melees does not suddenly make me think that I am a melee machine! :eek:

Guildmaster_Kadish
05-10-2009, 08:28 PM
You want to stop the hate? Then help us yell at the devs for monk improvements; the sooner monks can help a group as much as another class, the hate will die. Just look at rangers.

Just for the record, rangers were never bad. TWF with FE was always an incredible damage-doing option; even without the Tempest enhancement rangers could out-dps many of the other classes (everything but rogue). The addition of Tempest just made it even better, and, more importantly, changed the perception of rangers. More people started to play melee rangers, the strength-ranger became popular, more people realized how much damage rangers could put out. The same is true for rogues--they were always the class that had the highest DPS potential, but very few chose that path and the perception was poor.

What is important in order to "kill the hate" is to change the perception of a class. I would contend that there were just as many poorly built/played crit barbarians as rogues back when mod6 came out, yet barbarians were hailed and rogues excluded from early shroud groups. Why? Because of the perception that a crit raging barbarian must be doing lots of damage and some puny rogue must be squishy.

Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins can't match the DPS of Rangers and Rogues, but yet they are largely accepted where monks are not. I'm not saying that monks don't need some help, but I am saying that being the best DPS class is not a requirement for eliminating "the hate."

My two coppers.
GK

Greydeath
05-10-2009, 08:51 PM
I am mad because anytime I bring up that monks dps is fine someone brings up the 2 raid bosses that monks cant bypass their dr. Like thats the only dps that matters.
With all the ways to deal with Trash, Raid Boss DPS is pretty much the only place it matters, yes :o


What is even worse is I see people still trying to make kama monk builds I try to tell them dont do it and they dont listen. So then you have another monk build out there that has even lower dps than a handwrap monk so then people see that monk and say man that monk only got 8 kills the whole quest monks must suck. Then you have monk build that has never lost in a kill count race without running over to kill something that someone else is working on unless they are taking to long to kill it and people are blown away and ask you what your using on your monk or what kind of build your monk is.
Except that Kamas WORK. Not to mention the massive addvantages of Greensteel, not the least of which is Transmuting. Therefore their DPS is generally higher than a Wrap Monk where it actually MATTERS. :cool:

The break even point being ~30STR which not all Monks reach and obviously the quality of the Handwraps play into it as well: transmuting kamas are far easier to get than Holy of GEOB wraps...


Why cant someone answer me my question about that. Why is it I can run past a few mobs take out the second group of mobs before the other meleers finish with the first set of mobs? Why? since monks cant dps there must be a glitch in the game or something. I see it in every quest I run and yes I lvled a a dex monk to cap and working on lvling a str based monk to cap (at lvl 12 now).
Probably because they were planning to run by everything until you stopped and agro'd ****?
Maybe you A/S'd passed the Orthons so you could kill the trogs?
You could have agro'd the first set and dragged them with you forcing the others to catch up?

Given ALL the possibilities where this anacdote MIGHT be true, the likelihood that it was because your Monk out DPS'd them is the least likely consideration... :(


Maybe I just dont understand how dps works I guess.
Given your continued use of poor examples attempting to demonstrate Monk DPS, it is clear that you do NOT understand how DPS works. Kill Count /= DPS :rolleyes:

twoton
05-10-2009, 09:53 PM
well at least yall are making yourselves more clear.

yeah raid bosses matter to most people in game.

I do have another question.

a human fighter with 32 str and pa with fighter enhancment with a greataxe would be doing around 39 base dmg right?

twoton
05-10-2009, 10:22 PM
ok so I took a look at some of my numbers and if Im wrong I am sure yall will point it out.

str based monk tier 3 windstance gtwf and pa-base dmg 20 avg dmg per swing 28 (2d8)

str based fighter with greataxe and pa base dmg 39 avg dmg per swing 45

monk has 26 full attack animation rounds in about 57.72 seconds

fighter has 20 full attack animation rounds in about 57.60 seconds

lets say half of those attacks are crits for both classes

a fighter will do about 9,000 points of dmg (6,750 points from crits and 2,250 from regular hits)

a monk will do about 10,920 points of dmg (7,280 from crits and 3640 from regular hits)


A str based tempest ranger (correct me if Im wrong here please) with pa gtwf using khopeshs has a base dmg of 22 avg dmg of 26

ranger gets 25 full attack animations in 57.00 seconds

a ranger will do about 12,740 points of dmg (9,360 from crits and 3,380 from regular hits)

oddly enough without bring race into it I found that a fighter with dmg boosting enhancements does the same dmg as a raging barb granted both with greataxes.

baddax
05-10-2009, 11:28 PM
PR. monks need a good PR man and a snazzy name like Tempest. My vote is for Death Dealer. This is catchy and says "i am a DPS machine!".

If there is enough people saying monks Suck then it is a self fufilling prophecy. If monks cannot get into raids then they will have less raid loot and have less uber gear than non monks.

If a monk gets into a raid and does great he is considered average, if he does good he is considered poor, if he does poor he just sucks. This is stereotyping at its best. If people in a group expect monks to fail then they will generate "facts" to support their opinions. For example it is a proven fact thta once you buy a particaular brand of car then all of the sudden you notice how many of this particualr brand their is. This is also why you will see many "Chevy" famalies, "ford" families etc. Say you are from a Ford famaly and you go out and decide to buck the system and buy a chevy. As soon as there is any problems with it your family will give you the"i told you so speach". The chance of the same person buying a chevy again become slim to none.

Also if a monk does just outstanding maybe even leading kill counts then maybe some of the tempest monks are "hating" on the monk because he is outdooing some of the Tempest Monk all stars.

Since killing trash mobs (where WOP's and VORPS reign supreme)has little to do with DPS, then monk DPS is irrelevant. On raid bosses where DPS is important it is difficult to tell who is dealing the most DPS Outside of who has agro unless you are using an intimitnak in which case the only way to really tell is by how fast the names red bar goes down, but since all melees are attacking there is no really effective way to tell who is doing how much damage.
As many people have stated the numbers Do not support monks as being poor DPS classes. Last time i checked Numbers do not lie. So it must mainly be in the perception or opinions of the DDO players.

Lastly since raid loot is often rolled on by specific classes and monks fall along the line of say the tempest ranger with a monk spash it might be that they are subconciously or conciously excluding monks from raids and certain parties becasue if specific items drop then they will be competing for the same items on loot rolls.

Noctus
05-11-2009, 12:28 AM
ok so I took a look at some of my numbers and if Im wrong I am sure yall will point it out.

str based monk tier 3 windstance gtwf and pa-base dmg 20 avg dmg per swing 28 (2d8)

str based fighter with greataxe and pa base dmg 39 avg dmg per swing 45

monk has 26 full attack animation rounds in about 57.72 seconds

fighter has 20 full attack animation rounds in about 57.60 seconds

lets say half of those attacks are crits for both classes

a fighter will do about 9,000 points of dmg (6,750 points from crits and 2,250 from regular hits)

a monk will do about 10,920 points of dmg (7,280 from crits and 3640 from regular hits)


A str based tempest ranger (correct me if Im wrong here please) with pa gtwf using khopeshs has a base dmg of 22 avg dmg of 26

ranger gets 25 full attack animations in 57.00 seconds

a ranger will do about 12,740 points of dmg (9,360 from crits and 3,380 from regular hits)

oddly enough without bring race into it I found that a fighter with dmg boosting enhancements does the same dmg as a raging barb granted both with greataxes.



While this is the accurate road to go (let the numbers speak, not anecdotal evidence), you not only compared Monk vs. Fighter, but TWF against THF.


The differences in DPS between THF and TWF superimpose themself over Monk vs. Fighter. For a proper comparisation you must compare a TWF monk versus a TWF fighter.





lets say half of those attacks are crits for both classes

You cant just give both the same additional bonus damage from crits, as a Fighter will be using weapons with much better crit values, while monks are stuck with low crit value weapons. A fighters weapon crits more often and harder than a monks.

twoton
05-11-2009, 12:38 AM
well if you notice I did do a tempest ranger. I did a fighter using a greataxe which btw has a x3 multiplier because that was what I have timed. I dont have a fighter with gtwf timed yet so I could only guess as to how fast they swing. I am sure they swing slower than a tempest ranger but not sure by how much in point something seconds.

If you looked at my whole post you would notice that str build tempest ranger with khopeshes beats the monk by about 2,000 points of dmg.

I am still trying to get more numbers to compare alot more classes because I would like to know just how gimp monk dps is.

Greydeath
05-11-2009, 01:08 AM
PR. monks need a good PR man and a snazzy name like Tempest. My vote is for Death Dealer. This is catchy and says "i am a DPS machine!".
No - people had already come around on Rangers well before Tempest was introduced. Tempest merely put them over the top. The Monk PrEs do not look like they will be anything near Tempest...


If there is enough people saying monks Suck then it is a self fufilling prophecy. If monks cannot get into raids then they will have less raid loot and have less uber gear than non monks.
Or people are saying that they suck because they do... :rolleyes:

Rangers' initial bad rap was argueably contributed heavily to by all the Drizzzzzzzzzzzts in the game - you COULD find a good Ranger as they certainly existed, but if 1 in 100 was good, it was simply not worth the far greater odds of getting stuck with one of the other 99 out there. Monks were the new class on the block and 'everyone' had to roll one - not great odds for finding a good Monk let alone an outstanding one.

Rangers also initially were handicapped by being limited to lvl10 - this may be similar to Monks at lvl20, and while I certainly hold out hope I am skeptical it will play out the same way (especially given the unfortunate Mod9 preview :() Time will tell.

The loot issue is true to a point. Any serious Monkie saved up kamas, quarterstaffs and shruiken since release had great gear, while most newbie Monks were left using +1 Handwraps from the Lowroad - of course these poorly equiped Monks fell behind. Rangers initially gained gear along with everyone else and did not have to suffer through this disparity. The same holds true for the raid loot: Rangers can benefit from significantly more of it than Monks; however, I have not been on a raid where the token Monk was simply excluded from loot that he could use merely because he was a Monk.


If a monk gets into a raid and does great he is considered average, if he does good he is considered poor, if he does poor he just sucks. This is stereotyping at its best.
Not stereotyping if it is true :rolleyes:

If even 1 in 10 Monks was outstanding, that would be an acceptable ratio, but unfortunately it is nowhere near that. It is most likely not even 1 in 10 Monks are decent let alone good :(

The good/bad ratio is very important for the lower classes since they are already behind. If the best best Monk keeps up with the worst Barb, what hope do all the other Monks have?


If people in a group expect monks to fail then they will generate "facts" to support their opinions.
Or we can objectively look at the DPS numbers and see exactly where Monks fall. Granted the list is based upon the maximum DPS, so general numbers tend to be lower, but even still the list as is has a 3x spread: the top DPS builds do three times the amount of damage as the worst builds. Monks are NOT at the top.


Also if a monk does just outstanding maybe even leading kill counts then maybe some of the tempest monks are "hating" on the monk because he is outdooing some of the Tempest Monk all stars.
'Just outstanding'?!?!? I would be estatic to have a 'just outstanding' Monk in my party; heck I would be thrilled if the Monk was 'merely good'! :rolleyes:

That said, kill count is irrelevant (outside of maybe Kobold Assault, etc :D) so first anyone whining about kill count does not know much about the game and second dominating the kill count 'counts' for very little.


Since killing trash mobs (where WOP's and VORPS reign supreme)has little to do with DPS, then monk DPS is irrelevant.
Killing trash is IRRELEVANT. Do you have trash issues? If trash is giving you problems you should have far bigger concerns than Monk DPS... :eek:

Monks with their abilities CAN do VERY WELL against Trash: Stunning Fist, Stunning Blow, Quivering Palm, Debuffs, Party buffs, etc - all great against Trash; all virtually useless against bosses where it actually matters.


On raid bosses where DPS is important it is difficult to tell who is dealing the most DPS Outside of who has agro unless you are using an intimitnak in which case the only way to really tell is by how fast the names red bar goes down, but since all melees are attacking there is no really effective way to tell who is doing how much damage.
Two characters enter; one character leaves!

Not very difficult at all - just run the numbers (or more likely have gfunk run them for you) and you will see what we have been complaining about. Heck even in THIS thread, a fairly optimized Monk vs an unoptimized Fighter is only doing ~78% of the fighter's damage. That is what concerns us - and the fact that the majority of Monks do not seem to be that optimized causes concerns, especially when most Fighters are far MORE optimized than the example.

Paladins once had this problem as well, but fortunately they have been buffed past it (or argueably that Monks were introduced BELOW them in DPS) - it is simply a fact of the way the game plays: there will be good DPS options (including a 'best') and there will be bad DPS options (of which Monks unfortunately are).



As many people have stated the numbers Do not support monks as being poor DPS classes. Last time i checked Numbers do not lie. So it must mainly be in the perception or opinions of the DDO players.
Utterly WRONG - the numbers do NOT lie and they clearly show that Monks have subpar DPS. They therefore SUPPORT that Monks are poor DPS options. Thus the common perception of DDO players that Monks are not good DPS :mad:



Lastly since raid loot is often rolled on by specific classes and monks fall along the line of say the tempest ranger with a monk spash it might be that they are subconciously or conciously excluding monks from raids and certain parties becasue if specific items drop then they will be competing for the same items on loot rolls.
Obviously this is true simply for the fact that it happens to all classes on all the raids - it is not a Monk only thing. As with all the others, Monks too are free to start their own raids and limit who/what joins. :cool:

Gol
05-11-2009, 06:54 AM
ok so I took a look at some of my numbers and if Im wrong I am sure yall will point it out.
...
Wow... I can't fathom how you think that's actually a fair comparison. Of course the tricked out Geo Metro performs well ... compared to a stock Ford Pinto.



Utterly WRONG - the numbers do NOT lie and they clearly show that Monks have subpar DPS. They therefore SUPPORT that Monks are poor DPS options. Thus the common perception of DDO players that Monks are not good DPS :mad:QFT

twoton
05-11-2009, 01:36 PM
ok wait a minute first yall say a monks dps is sub par to every other class in the game. Now yall only want to compare a monks dps to a firghter duel wielding khopeshs or a barb duel wielding khopeshes. Granted I didnt even bother posting the numbers for a s/b fighter because monk blew that type of fighting style out of the water.

I do have a question though to figure out what a monks base dmg would be against the pit fiend since a monk cant bypass all the of the pit fiends dr. How much of the Pit fiends dr is bypassed by hold and just how much dr does he have on normal? I will figure it up and post the numbers.

Granted I know a monk shouldnt be in the shroud but hey that where most of yall like to compare monk dps to other classes so I will go with it. I am just very interested what the out come is. I know most people like to figure dps numbers with max buffs and through in elemental dmg or holy or special move dps but not me. I think the best way to show dps is by pure base dmg you can add in all the other stuff later.

Gol
05-11-2009, 07:18 PM
A str based tempest ranger (correct me if Im wrong here please) with pa gtwf using khopeshs has a base dmg of 22 avg dmg of 26
To start, Str based ranger = 30+ Str

5.5 base dmg (1d10 vanilla Greensteel Khopesh)
5 Power Attack
15 Favored Enemy
3 Ram's Might
10 Strength
5 Weapon Enchantment
= 43.5 Average Damage on anything worth DPSing.

Compared to your "22 avg damage". I'd say your Ranger estimate is about half actual. That would put your Monk at about 40% of the DPS of the Ranger.

baddax
05-11-2009, 11:14 PM
What percent of content is currently in a rangers favored enemey catagory? If you drop the favored enemey enhancement then those numbers are quite different.

Also what about teir 4 wind stance (or the current tier 3) vs tier 3 tempest? What is the attack rate difference? If the monks attacks per minute is significantly higher which im guessing it would be then this could significantly offset the equation.

Guildmaster_Kadish
05-11-2009, 11:21 PM
What percent of content is currently in a rangers favored enemey catagory? If you drop the favored enemey enhancement then those numbers are quite different.

Practically 100% at end-game (level 16+) and significant amounts the rest of the way up as well. Giants and undead and evil outsiders covers quite a bit (and, to be fair, giants and undead are often switched out at high level for more relevant things).

Gol
05-11-2009, 11:40 PM
Practically 100% at end-game (level 16+) and significant amounts the rest of the way up as well. Giants and undead and evil outsiders covers quite a bit (and, to be fair, giants and undead are often switched out at high level for more relevant things).
bingo. many take constructs as well for unrivaled portal beating in shroud instead of undead.

twoton
05-12-2009, 12:28 AM
thats cool didnt think about favored enemy.

What about my other question how much dr does holy bypass on pit fiend?

Monkey_Archer
05-12-2009, 01:09 AM
The truth about monk dps is that, againt anything without DR, its virtually identical to a fighter.

Notes:
Wind stance could be used to increase monk dps, but the monk would need lots of ki to maintain strikes.
Bursting weapons and seeker bonuses would put the fighter ahead a bit...
Any fortification would put the monk ahead...

Fighter, Dual khopesh, 34 strength, Holy greater bane weapons
5.5 Base
5 enchanted
12 strength (6 offhand)
6 weapon spec feats/enhancements
5 power attack
---
33.5 mainhand
27.5 offhand
35 effects (5d6 per weapon)
-----
96 damage

100.5 mainhand crit
82.5 offhand crit
35 effects
-----
218 damage

per 20 attacks:
218 * 4 crits = 872
96 * 15 hits = 1440

(872 +1440) / 20 attacks = 115.6 damage per swing

115.6 * 83 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 160 dps


Monk, Fists, 30 strength, Holy greater bane weapons
9 Base
5 enchanted
10 strength (10 offhand)
5 ki strikes (can be up to 9 or 10, but 5 is more easily achievable)
5 power attack
---
34 mainhand
34 offhand
35 effects (5d6 per weapon)
-----
103 damage

68 mainhand crit
68 offhand crit
35 effects
-----
171 damage

per 20 attacks:
171 * 2 crits = 342
103 * 17 hits = 1751

(342 + 1751) / 20 attacks = 104.65 damage per swing

104.65 * 90 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 157 dps

Noctus
05-12-2009, 09:56 AM
The truth about monk dps is that, againt anything without DR, its virtually identical to a fighter.

Notes:
Wind stance could be used to increase monk dps, but the monk would need lots of ki to maintain strikes.
Bursting weapons and seeker bonuses would put the fighter ahead a bit...
Any fortification would put the monk ahead...

Fighter, Dual khopesh, 34 strength, Holy greater bane weapons
5.5 Base
5 enchanted
12 strength (6 offhand)
6 weapon spec feats/enhancements
5 power attack
---
33.5 mainhand
27.5 offhand
35 effects (5d6 per weapon)
-----
96 damage

100.5 mainhand crit
82.5 offhand crit
35 effects
-----
218 damage

per 20 attacks:
218 * 4 crits = 872
96 * 15 hits = 1440

(872 +1440) / 20 attacks = 115.6 damage per swing

115.6 * 83 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 160 dps


Monk, Fists, 30 strength, Holy greater bane weapons
9 Base
5 enchanted
10 strength (10 offhand)
5 ki strikes (can be up to 9 or 10, but 5 is more easily achievable)
5 power attack
---
34 mainhand
34 offhand
35 effects (5d6 per weapon)
-----
103 damage

68 mainhand crit
68 offhand crit
35 effects
-----
171 damage

per 20 attacks:
171 * 2 crits = 342
103 * 17 hits = 1751

(342 + 1751) / 20 attacks = 104.65 damage per swing

104.65 * 90 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 157 dps



Thanks, Monkey Archer.

1. Thats how DPS is properly calculated.

2. Keeping as many things the same, so that the differences in the endresult do indeed come from the differences in the class, not because of the different combat styles or different builds.

For example if you want to analyse Ranger vs. Paladin DPS comparing a DEX-based TWF Ranger to a STR-based S&B Paladin is of low merit, as the result will be heavily influenced not just by the differences in classes, but also, and more so, by the diferences between STR and DEX builds,a s well as from the differences between S&B vs. TWF.

--->This is a sound fundament on which a discussion can be based.

twoton
05-12-2009, 01:10 PM
you know what I never agured that monk dps was compareable to gtwf fighter with khophes or any other elite dps build like a gtwf barb with khophes or a str based ranger with gtwf. I am just trying to point out that out of all the fighting styles in the game the monk can out dps some of them. By no means am I saying that the monk is in the top 5 of elite fighting styles. Im just saying there are other fighting styles out there that a monk can out dps.

Maegin
05-12-2009, 03:49 PM
I built my monk without looking on any special builds posted on forums and just did it based on my hunch. :)
I was told many times already that my build is wrong because I do not have a max AC but just about 55-60 when buffed (questions like: "so why build a monk?") and I heard sometimes that monks suck from some people when I wanted to join a group. Funny thing is I can not see it from my experience. For sure I have less DPS then some tricked out barbs or rangers but I can deal pretty decent dps in most cases. I have 32 STR (almost 100% in a fire stand) and I am mostly using wraps and rarely kamas (for vorpal and stat damage). Against bosses like Harry or Sally I am getting all red numbers with my +4 holy burst or +5 shocking burst wraps. In SoS my +5 acid of G undead work pretty well. In one hound, when everything was going south I got him aggroed on me and kept it for quite a time until a group reorganized and I stayed alive with no healing. I just love immunities and saves which let me solo bosses from Enter the Kobold with hardly taking damage. In a shroud in fact I hadly take much anyway and no cleric needs to worry about me when they cast a mass cure from time to time cause it's all I need to keep my red bar full. From reading some threads it looks for me like many people are trying to min/max a monk and they are going for the best AC gimping dps to the point of uselessness. Make it a more balanced character and it's not really so bad. I never liked to make a character which can deal some crazy damage at a cost of being fully cleric dependent. I like my characters to survive in hard conditions but still contribute a good deal and my monk is this kind of a character. I actually even got most kills in a VoD hard run (I know it was a pure luck :)) and killed some of the tough bosses when everybody was giving up calling a wipe.
I would like some more dps for sure (GS wraps would work I guess) I would like some good shirukens (looks like there is a total shortage of these in general) but I am quite happy about my monk and I do not have as many problems to get into raid groups like some here claim (I actually raid 90% of my play time).

Combat : Wall of text hits you for 4,562 points of damage!

Greydeath
05-14-2009, 08:21 AM
I do have a question though to figure out what a monks base dmg would be against the pit fiend since a monk cant bypass all the of the pit fiends dr. How much of the Pit fiends dr is bypassed by hold and just how much dr does he have on normal?


What about my other question how much dr does holy bypass on pit fiend?

Holy does not bypass ANY of the Pit Fiend's 15 DR (Normal).


But to address one of your other points, the reason TO include buffs is that the better weapons scale faster then Monks with respect to additional buffs.

Example - Bloodstone (Seeker +6). [Double % for iCrit.]
Monk Crit 20x2 = +12 damage 5% of the time
Axe 20x3 = +18 damage 5% of the time
Pick 20x4 = +24 damage 5% of the time
Sword 19x2 = +12 damage 10% of the time
Khopesh 19x3 = +18 damage 10% of the time

As you can see the other weapons either do more damage, do damage more often or both :eek:

Greydeath
05-14-2009, 08:24 AM
Im just saying there are other fighting styles out there that a monk can out dps.

Monk DPS > Healbot? :D

Noctus
05-14-2009, 11:29 AM
you know what I never agured that monk dps was compareable to gtwf fighter with khophes or any other elite dps build like a gtwf barb with khophes or a str based ranger with gtwf. I am just trying to point out that out of all the fighting styles in the game the monk can out dps some of them. By no means am I saying that the monk is in the top 5 of elite fighting styles. Im just saying there are other fighting styles out there that a monk can out dps.


I concure with this.

The problem is that many people expirienced many badly build and/or badly played monks, when the class came out. And so mentally slotted the class in the "ranged Ranger" / "trapgimp Rogue" category.

Some hard numbers could convince most of these peoples (as long as they read the forums) that while a Monk´s DPS is not the equal to fully offensive classes like fighter and Barbarian, but still in a range where they can contribute meaningfully.

While discussing on the basis "monk DPS is useless" against " No, its not", backed by anecdotal evidence, is a futile endeavor.



Making the issue more complicated is the problem, that it is much harder to build and play a good monk, than build and play a good Barbarian (max STR and CON, get all the THF feats, Power Attack and IC:Slashing --> good Barbarian build)

Talon_Moonshadow
05-14-2009, 12:57 PM
Got my Monk to lvl 13 and I'm still deciding whether I like them or not.

Seen high AC Monks that are untouchable....very impressive.

Seen a few other Monks who got high kills.

Seen only a very few get killed often.

IMO a char who takes no damage is very valuable in a party. But I know most people think "that's why we have a cleric...bring on the DPS and HP!"

KI....have alot of trouble using this effectively. Monsters don't hold still long enough, or just die too fast. And Red Names are immune to some of it I think.

Plus don't play my Monk enough to remember what combo does what.

Handwraps.....cheezy IMO. But necessary in this game with players expectations. (just look at this post and imagine the hate if he had no handwraps.)
Broken? Some are.....but most seem to work for me.
(but why do my Spectral gloves not work with monk attacks?!)
What kind of handwraps do you want to fix the DPS complaint? From what I've seen the complaint is against the crit range.

Yes Crit range from Mnks weps is inferior.

But each class is suppose to have some kind of balance to them.
Imagine a class with super saves, AC, ......AND superior DPS!

Too many people want Bruce Lee to fight like Conan IMO.
Monks are not Barbarians.....if you want to play a Barbarian play one. If you want a Babarian in your group, go find one.

But no matter what you think of monks, in general they are never a liability to your group.....unless you think lack of DPS is a liability...and in that case I would argue that your char isn't good enough if he needs others to be uber for you to succeed.

There is more than Raids in this game. Most creatures do not require two types of wep effects to bypass DR, and most creatures DR is not very high anyway.

Trasmuting Handwraps of Pure Good?
Holy Silver Kamas? Holy Burst Silver Kamas of Pure Good?
Transmuting QStaff of Pure Good?
Handaxes?
Clubs?
Shuriken?
Crossbows?
GS anything but handwraps.

Adapt, overcome.

Rafal
05-18-2009, 10:22 AM
Certainly not 'wrong' per say, but 60AC is at the low end of usefulness now, and if the Mod9 preview was any indication, 60AC will simply no longer be useful at all... The fact that you need to be buffed to reach those numbers means your base AC is only marginal for trash currently; hopefully, you did not invest heavily in order to reach the number you are at...
I did not. I was not even calculating AC when I was building him.The fact that I can still get as high is nice and I still can go a bit higher with it.

The question while presumtious is nevertheless valid: there are builds available that will do more damage with better AC and be able to match saves and similar abilities...
Not sure where are you coming from. Looks like you just assume superiority of other builds without playing mine (and even knowing what it is exactly). I never said my build is the best but I like it and I do not see it's inferior.


A - no you are not
or
B - you are bugged

You are right, I am getting a bunch or red numbers but the first one is yellow. Still it's not zero.

Another thing is, I always see my role different at 4th or 5th part of shroud (Hound or VoD are not important for DPS as far as bosses go). I noticed especially in part 4 that when I am spamming Walk of the Sun and Dance of Clouds people die less.