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View Full Version : 20 THF FB Warforged Barbarian (new 32 pt)



Warbler
04-24-2009, 05:01 AM
Hi all,

I was wondering if you guys could comment on my idea here. I'm pretty broke so right now I can only buy one +1 Tome. So I thought I'd make it count. I was thinking about the following:

Stats:
STR: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 18
Int: 9
Wis: 7
Cha: 6

Feats:
1 - THF
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Toughness
12 - ITHF
15 - Improved Critical - Slash
18 - GTHF

Skills:
Intimidate: Full
Jump: -2 from max
Listen: -2 from max
Balance: Full (cross class)
Tumble: One point

The idea around this basic concept is that I will only have access to +1 tomes and I'll apply one to int at level one so I can get an extra skill point. I also will be able to bump my wisdom score up by one at a later time. When +5 tomes come out I'll be able to bump my dex to 17 if ever I want to respec for TWF. But the purpose of this build was to make use of the THF capstone with FB.

I was wondering what people thought about this? Also would taking Stunning blow instead of toughness be good?

Thanks!

tihocan
04-24-2009, 09:27 AM
I would personally drop Con to 16 to bump your Wis. I'm sure some would disagree though. Could also raise Dex to 13 this way, so if you ever wish to respec to TWF a +4 tome is more reasonable than +5 ;)

I'd definitely take IC: Slash at L9. You can delay toughness for a bit since it's not really needed (stunning blow is nice, though its effectiveness tends to really drop at high level).

Shade
04-24-2009, 11:35 AM
Pretty much the same as my build cept a few things like Tihocan mentioned. Mainly the being warforged/toughness.

Toughness is not a good feat for barbs. Get stunning blow. It works fine at high lvl once you max your strength. I stun stuff in the shroud all the time.

The wis/con thing can be a concern.. I always play dwarfs so there automatically +3 will save over WF, and more with dwarf spell resist so I don't have much trouble.. But I can see WFs getting commanded allot. 16 con is plenty, but -1 will save won't hurt that bad, either way works.

Skills - just check my build thread for more indepth info.. But basics:
Listen sucks get spot, its better. Crossclass doesn't matter, you dont need much - ~6 ranks.
Jump, stop at around 16-17 ranks, basicly when you can hit 40 jump single raged with a jump item means your good, 40 is the cap.

DragoonPenguin
04-24-2009, 11:41 AM
your build is fine, you really cant go wrong with max str and max con. dont worry about your wisdom, if someone wants to command you, there isnt a damn thing you can do about it no matter what your starting wis is. buddy up with a cleric and tell them fantastic lies about how you have max healers friend (really dont though) and get them to hit you with break enchantment

BlackSteel
04-24-2009, 04:00 PM
since the change to 'listen' it works great for monster detection now, no harm picking it over spot, especially considering its a class skill. It wont allow you to get messages about a trap being close by, but thats not terribly useful anyway.

stats are fine, its what I would do if i chose to reroll my barb

gfunk
04-24-2009, 04:29 PM
I've always been a bit cautious about maxing stats, though I have done it myself on many of my characters. The thing is, that to go from 16 to 18 in str and con you are spending another 12 build points. (so basically +1.5 to damage, +20 hit points, +1 to fort save).

Alternatively you might consider something like

str 16
dex 16
con 16
int 9 (put one of your +1 tomes here)
wis 11 (put one of your +1 tomes here)
cha 6

this gives you +2 to your will save, +2 to your reflex save and full ability to switch to gtwf if it becomes an issue.

You will miss out on some dps, but it won't be noticeble.

I think that you will notice those time when you miss a greater command save for minutes on end (even though it happens only a few times here and there)

you might also consider:

str 17+5lvls+6item + tome (3 tome makes you even, 2 and 4 are odd)
dex 14
con 16
int 9
wis 12
cha 6

putting your +1 tomes into int and str. Still gives you access to GTWF if you ever loot a +3 tome, and the difference at 17 vs 18 str might not be a real difference at all depending on what your expectations of eventual tome use are.

Warbler
04-25-2009, 12:34 AM
I'd definitely take IC: Slash at L9.

Thank you Tihocan. I’ll take IC:S at 9.


Toughness is not a good feat for barbs. Get stunning blow. It works fine at high lvl once you max your strength. I stun stuff in the shroud all the time.
Jump, stop at around 16-17 ranks, basicly when you can hit 40 jump single raged with a jump item means your good, 40 is the cap.

Thank you Shade. I would defineately like to play around with stunning blow. I think whenever I take it that slot will be like a floating feat for me. In PnP my barb had Iron Will to help out with will save so perhaps that if I find that I’m not using SB. Great info on the jump cap thanks.


…buddy up with a cleric and tell them fantastic lies about how you have max healers friend (really dont though) and get them to hit you with break enchantment

Thanks DP. Lol


since the change to 'listen' it works great for monster detection now, no harm picking it over spot, especially considering its a class skill.

Thanks BlackSteel. I’ll have to look up info on the listen changes. Yeah I can’t mentally get over taking spot cross class when listen in class.


You might also consider:

str 17+5lvls+6item + tome (3 tome makes you even, 2 and 4 are odd)
.

Thanks gfunk. Anyone got max str math at level 20 raging etc?

boldarblood
04-25-2009, 01:11 AM
since the change to 'listen' it works great for monster detection now, no harm picking it over spot, especially considering its a class skill. It wont allow you to get messages about a trap being close by, but thats not terribly useful anyway.

stats are fine, its what I would do if i chose to reroll my barb


Even with Listen being a class skill I usually take spot over it for one reason. Search items come on valuable item slots. Where spot you can use spot goggles, works great if he plans to bring the toon through VOD and can get the tharnes goggles. 9.5 ranks +15 for item (tharnes goggles or spot 15 item) and 4 for GH, for 28.5 spot, thats at 16, will have a few more at 20th level.

Warbler
04-25-2009, 01:12 AM
Wow Shade... just read that other thread. Anyone else gets this far in reading my thread just go here and read this completely.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116814

:cool:

Warbler
04-25-2009, 01:15 AM
Even with Listen being a class skill I usually take spot over it for one reason. Search items come on valuable item slots. Where spot you can use spot goggles, works great if he plans to bring the toon through VOD and can get the tharnes goggles. 9.5 ranks +15 for item (tharnes goggles or spot 15 item) and 4 for GH, for 28.5 spot, thats at 16, will have a few more at 20th level.

Yeah I'm at level 3 now and am going to reroll for spot. Pretty much exactly like shades build now as it turns out but I'm still going to go WF.

Cleave at 6 to get FB fastest? Do I really want to be kicking myself in the butt at such an early level?

mediocresurgeon
04-25-2009, 01:43 AM
Question:
How do you plan on making your 12 dex useful? Is it for a feat? class feature? enhancement line?

If the answer is No, 12 dex really doesn't get me anything like that, then I'd suggest dropping it to an 8.

Same with Int. Same with Wis. Same with Cha. 18 Str/20 Con is probably your best bet.

Also, about Improved Critical... once you have you Mineral II greataxe, you won't need it--you're probably never going to pick up another weapon again (except maybe a Pos/Pos/Pos Maul after the Transmuting nerf) so you could just go ahead and drop it altogether.

EDIT:
Also, Toughness is VERY important for a warforged barbarian! Without it, you cannot take the Toughness enhancements. Combined with the feat itself, this means you are losing 103 hit points.
If you saw a feat that had no prerequisites and granted you an extra 103 hit points, wouldn't you take it?

Warbler
04-25-2009, 03:28 AM
Question:
How do you plan on making your 12 dex useful? Is it for a feat? class feature? enhancement line?

If the answer is No, 12 dex really doesn't get me anything like that, then I'd suggest dropping it to an 8.

Same with Int. Same with Wis. Same with Cha. 18 Str/20 Con is probably your best bet.

Also, about Improved Critical... once you have you Mineral II greataxe, you won't need it--you're probably never going to pick up another weapon again (except maybe a Pos/Pos/Pos Maul after the Transmuting nerf) so you could just go ahead and drop it altogether.

EDIT:
Also, Toughness is VERY important for a warforged barbarian! Without it, you cannot take the Toughness enhancements. Combined with the feat itself, this means you are losing 103 hit points.
If you saw a feat that had no prerequisites and granted you an extra 103 hit points, wouldn't you take it?

Thank you.

Shade
04-25-2009, 05:58 AM
since the change to 'listen' it works great for monster detection now, no harm picking it over spot, especially considering its a class skill. It wont allow you to get messages about a trap being close by, but thats not terribly useful anyway.

stats are fine, its what I would do if i chose to reroll my barb

Not really, not for most players.
They do very different things.

Listen lets you see the red blobs that monsters that make noise make when they move. If you have very keen eyes these can help.. If not you may miss them.

Also keep in mind certain monsters make very little to no noise anyways, so you never see the spots. I thinks slimes are one.

Meanwhile, 5-6 ranks is enough to spot almost every monster in the game. And spot makes them very clear - you see the whole monster, just in a dark translucent form.

The class skill vs non is not an issue at all. As mentioned, getting an item with spot on it, in a useful slot is much easier done then an item with listen.
Prime listen slot: Helm.. Which works for no one because the Minos legens is just too strong not to use, and its very easy to get.
Prime spot slot: google. Not much super important goes in only google slot. And many good loots that offer great other effect also tact spot onto googles. Spot is also on the chattering ring which is a nice item for any melee.

Trust me. Just do a search for "spot" in this thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121279
You'll notice 20+ items have it
Then try listen.. You'll find more items with a listen negative then a bonus lol.

BlackSteel
04-25-2009, 07:28 AM
you get more than a little red dot at their feet now, and you can 'listen' and see most mobs w/o even needing an item slot b/c you didnt just put 5-6 ranks in it, (or 10 b/c its cross class)

Hadrian
04-25-2009, 12:34 PM
If the answer is No, 12 dex really doesn't get me anything like that, then I'd suggest dropping it to an 8.

Same with Int. Same with Wis. Same with Cha. 18 Str/20 Con is probably your best bet.


I agree here, but with the caution that you will need some items to cover gaps in your saves. You don't really have to worry about reflex saves or will saves if you can get your hands on the right items, but if you cannot then it might be wise to try a more versitile and "safer" 18/2 build with rounded stats.



Also, about Improved Critical... once you have you Mineral II greataxe, you won't need it--you're probably never going to pick up another weapon again (except maybe a Pos/Pos/Pos Maul after the Transmuting nerf) so you could just go ahead and drop it altogether.

I can't agree with this because I have other weapons that I like to use. Lightning 2 great axe = happy barbarian. I probably really use about 5 different weapons, and only one of them doesn't benefit from my IC: Slash feat.



EDIT:
Also, Toughness is VERY important for a warforged barbarian! Without it, you cannot take the Toughness enhancements. Combined with the feat itself, this means you are losing 103 hit points.
If you saw a feat that had no prerequisites and granted you an extra 103 hit points, wouldn't you take it?

No, I wouldn't. I have enough hit points without it and I can take something that helps me kill faster instead. You're not just spending a feat for a lot of HPs. You're spending a feat and a significant amount of APs that could go toward improving will saves or offensive abilities.

HP increases have diminishing returns, and a barbarian with maxed out con really doesn't have HP as a major concern. We play together all the time with our barbs. Can you tell mine doesn't have Toughness?

tihocan
04-25-2009, 09:47 PM
Question:
How do you plan on making your 12 dex useful? Is it for a feat? class feature? enhancement line?

If the answer is No, 12 dex really doesn't get me anything like that, then I'd suggest dropping it to an 8.

Same with Int. Same with Wis. Same with Cha. 18 Str/20 Con is probably your best bet.

Also, about Improved Critical... once you have you Mineral II greataxe, you won't need it--you're probably never going to pick up another weapon again (except maybe a Pos/Pos/Pos Maul after the Transmuting nerf) so you could just go ahead and drop it altogether.

EDIT:
Also, Toughness is VERY important for a warforged barbarian! Without it, you cannot take the Toughness enhancements. Combined with the feat itself, this means you are losing 103 hit points.
If you saw a feat that had no prerequisites and granted you an extra 103 hit points, wouldn't you take it?
Maybe if you start with higher dex/wis you won't need these 103 extra HPs to save your butt after failing too many saves :p

More seriously, I think both approaches are valid. It's a matter of personal preference.

boldarblood
04-26-2009, 04:06 PM
Question:
How do you plan on making your 12 dex useful? Is it for a feat? class feature? enhancement line?

If the answer is No, 12 dex really doesn't get me anything like that, then I'd suggest dropping it to an 8.

Same with Int. Same with Wis. Same with Cha. 18 Str/20 Con is probably your best bet.

Also, about Improved Critical... once you have you Mineral II greataxe, you won't need it--you're probably never going to pick up another weapon again (except maybe a Pos/Pos/Pos Maul after the Transmuting nerf) so you could just go ahead and drop it altogether.

EDIT:
Also, Toughness is VERY important for a warforged barbarian! Without it, you cannot take the Toughness enhancements. Combined with the feat itself, this means you are losing 103 hit points.
If you saw a feat that had no prerequisites and granted you an extra 103 hit points, wouldn't you take it?



I dont agree much with any of this.

I would not drop the improved crit on a 2HF. Not unless they start offering nice 2HF piercing weapons, at which point I would switch to imp crit piercing. Also can get weapons like Lightning strike, and with changes to transmuting it keeps options open.

I would also have some dex, combined with an item, resistance, and a GH can get the reflex up a bit. Every point does matter. It more than makes up for the hitpoint difference.

Toughness is a waste of a feat, you have more than enough hit points on the barb. And I would much rather dedicate my enhancements to increasing my DPS at every point.

mediocresurgeon
04-30-2009, 05:09 PM
Maybe if you start with higher dex/wis you won't need these 103 extra HPs to save your butt after failing too many saves :p



I would also have some dex, combined with an item, resistance, and a GH can get the reflex up a bit. Every point does matter. It more than makes up for the hitpoint difference.

The best way to avoid taking damage from spells is to not get hit in the first place. With 90%+ of the AoE damage spells in DDO, you can recognize the casting animation/sound effect before it lands, and GTFO before the spell hits you. Examples: Cometfall, Flame Strike.

Given, certain spells you cannot avoid (such as when fighting Harry). When fighting Harry, wear the VoD bracers and Firestorm Greaves. On a failed save with Fire Resistance 30, you take a mere 6 damage on normal difficulty (screenshots are available for nonbeleivers). When fighting Sally, just stand near the spikes so that Sally's line of effect is blocked. When fighting Sorjek, wear a Ring of the Djinn (though his lighting attacks don't do a lot of damage in the first place).

Even with a starting wisdom of 6, you will save is still ridiculously high for a pure-class melee. Consider that you get bonuses from Rage (higher than your bonuses from GH, so they don't stack) and any save-boosting items you can wear (current max is +8 on saves from items). Also, on the same topic as above, it is better to avoid making the save in the first place. Warforged are immune to many of the nastiest effects which require a will save in the first place. Greater Command is the only thing you ever need to consider on a warforged barbarian, and there are only 2 spots in the game where you run into it consistantly--Prey on the Hunter and Cursed Crypt. If you are raged and wearing your resistance item, it lands less than ~30% of them time (and even when it does, you can shake it off right away).

I agree that a Warforged barbarian should spend all action points available on maximizing damage output. But count your action points: After Barb Mighty Rage I-IV, Power Attack I-III, Warforged Power Attack I-III, and Crit Rage I-II, how many action points do you have left? A Ton.

It is my philosophy that any character only needs 1 hit point left at the end of the fight--all the rest are expendable. However, this does not mean that high hit points are not to be valued--the higher your hit points are, the easier it is for a cleric to heal you (ie when they aren't paying attention, when there is a lag spike, or when their healing spells are on cooldown).

About Lighting II for a THF Warforged Barb--I have never used Lighting Strike on any character. It is my understanding that Lighting Strike is very useful for raids like Shroud and VoD on normal difficulty, but scales very poorly with increased difficulty. The top ~1% of players on Sarlona are all in agreement that a Mineral II weapon is a more effective, reliable weapon than Lighting II, but this is another topic entirely and has been debated countless times before. Excluding a Lighting II weapon, what other weapon would a Warforged barbarian possibly use? (Rhetorical question--there isn't one, and I have looked very thoroughly for something better.)

Shade
04-30-2009, 09:18 PM
Excluding a Lighting II weapon, what other weapon would a Warforged barbarian possibly use? (Rhetorical question--there isn't one, and I have looked very thoroughly for something better.)

Not really. a +5 Holy Greataxe of greater XXX bane is vastly superior weapon vs mineral II greataxe for nearly everything in the game.

A plain +5 greater bane is also very often better depending on wheather acid/holy on your mineral works vs said monster, and his AC. Even if every effect of your mineral works, youd about break even, but potentially hit more often thus granting more dps.

Mod9 will allow for +5 holy burst of greater bane, resulting in an even more superior weapon.

talas300
04-30-2009, 09:56 PM
current max str at lvl 20 for pure raging wf barb is 70

base 18 +5lvl +4tome +12rage +2capstone +2rage spell +4double madstone +6item +6 double frenzy +8 blood rage +3 greensteel/dta
so the usual will be 68 since a +2 str greensteel weapon isnt a very good mix

mediocresurgeon
05-01-2009, 04:02 AM
a +5 Holy Greataxe of greater XXX bane is vastly superior weapon vs mineral II greataxe for nearly everything in the game.


I suppose this is technically true. However, I expect that there are fewer of these than Abbot completions.

Shade
05-01-2009, 07:25 AM
I suppose this is technically true. However, I expect that there are fewer of these than Abbot completions.

No doubt. But Mod9 will change that.. Well actually thats a werid comparison as there will likely be lots more abbot completions in mod9, and more of those.. So its hard to say.. But yea u get what im saying, I think?