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ronco
04-23-2009, 02:25 PM
im thinking of going drow, pally 12 ranger 6 rogue 2 ,

so far my stats are

str 14
dex 16
con 12
int 12
wis 10
chr 14

have 1 +2 chr tome, +2 str tome and +1 int tome

feats: dodge, mobillity, spring attack, ce, icp, gtwf

thinking for pally 12 i will have the enh for evil outsiders and rgr fav enemy evil outsiders..

skills was thinking either intim / balance ... or balance / umd

gear i have to use are .. daggertoths belt...+5mith bp. coutless nice rapiers.. chaosguard..

anyhelp or an actual build template would be sweet :)

Thanimal
04-23-2009, 02:39 PM
im thinking of going drow, pally 12 ranger 6 rogue 2 ,

so far my stats are

str 14
dex 16
con 12
int 12
wis 10
chr 14

have 1 +2 chr tome, +2 str tome and +1 int tome

feats: dodge, mobillity, spring attack, ce, icp, gtwf

thinking for pally 12 i will have the enh for evil outsiders and rgr fav enemy evil outsiders..

skills was thinking either intim / balance ... or balance / umd

gear i have to use are .. daggertoths belt...+5mith bp. coutless nice rapiers.. chaosguard..

anyhelp or an actual build template would be sweet :)

I think we need to know what you're trying to BE in order to provide useful suggestions. I don't see Finesse on your feat list, and it sure seems like you're aiming for DPS, which would tell me your starting STR is too low. But then you have CE rather than Power Attack, so I don't know if you're aiming for DPS. Do you want to full-on tank? Listing intimidate as a "maybe" skill concerns me because usually you have to be dedicated to achieving tankiness for Intimidate to be worthwhile. I think it's a poor "throw on" in most cases.

But firstly, you haven't spent all your attribute points, have you? My count is:

str 14: 6
dex 16: 6
con 12: 6
int 12: 2
wis 10: 2
chr 14: 4
---
26

negative
04-23-2009, 02:44 PM
I didn't look at everything, and I'm not sure what the goal of this build is (I'll assume DPS), but just some random thoughts.

To answer your skill question, I would go balance/UMD, it makes the trade off you make for taking those 2 rogue levels more worth it.

You are trading the ability to cast Zeal for evasion and UMD that way. I'm not convienced about the 14/6 pally/ranger myself, so this might be a good tradeoff. I'm not sure how that compares to pure or 18/2 splits though.

You only list 6 feats, your 7th should probably be power attack. What order are you taking your levels? It would also be very nice to get toughness in there. Which leads me to my next paragraph.

I don't know that CE is worth it without an AC breakdown, but I feel like you'd be better off w/o CE and putting more points into STR and CON. You might also be able to drop 2 points out of WIS if you felt inclined.

ronco
04-23-2009, 03:07 PM
im jus looking for a build where i can hit fast (tempest) be good against Evil outsiders.. and do something more for damage then all my stat damage toons.. plus i love evasion and cant see myself living with out it... would like 3x pos kopeshes.. i jus need some direction i am horrible at making toons :d.. i always try to do too much with too little.. i love pally saves and the new pally pre.. but would like to go into it twf..

spifflove
04-23-2009, 03:31 PM
Other options you might consider are droping the ranger levels and boosting paladin or rogue levels or going tempest III strength ranger, droping dex and boosting str.

You say you don't want another stat damager and I just don't see how to drow without going dex other than str ranger. Your stats are very thin otherwise.

Thanimal
04-23-2009, 03:33 PM
i always try to do too much with too little..

First step complete: Know thyself. :)

But I'm starting to get it a little. Reading between the lines, I think the big thing you want to do here is deal some major "real" damage, so I suggest that we first optimize the **** out of that, and only then double back and see if you can improve your defenses meaningfully without giving up much DPS.

A great place to start is gfunk's thread on TWF. Pick a build off of there that gives you some of the other things you want, and then customize it. All of those can be considered "real" DPS builds, with the ordering depending greatly on the situation.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

My guess is the one you want is:
1249.9.. Warforged Tempest I Knight of the Chalice II, vs evil outsiders, w/zeal (16 bse str) assumes acid damage http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174590

Of note: Due to the Power Attack enhancements, and the superiority of Khopeshes (rather than Daxes or Rapiers), nearly every build deals its peak DPS as a Warforged. But it's not a rule that you MUST have peak DPS, of course. Very high DPS with other benefits may be a fantastic character. Still, I'd think *very* carefully before picking any other race. WF Paladins tend to be freakishly durable (massive list of immunities -- way fun vs. Beholders!), so *also* getting the peak possible DPS should not be discarded lightly.

Getting anywhere close to your goals now? Or am I wandering astray?

ronco
04-23-2009, 03:57 PM
thank you very much thanimal i think im well on my way :D:D

ronco
04-23-2009, 04:08 PM
now where can i find me a build idea fo wf tempest 1 / kotc lol

Thanimal
04-23-2009, 04:22 PM
now where can i find me a build idea fo wf tempest 1 / kotc lol

Here's a thread with some ideas:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176199

But I'm inclined to agree with your initial instinct that Rogue 2 offer more than levels 13 and 14 Paladin - a touch of Sneak Attack and Evasion. EDIT!! SO WRONG. Zeal is at 14. So getting Evasion here is not at all free.

Feats are TIGHT on this build, too, which is probably why Impaqt went human. So I think what you really want is 2 levels of Monk instead of Rogue. That gives you two extra feats (since you want MANY of the Monk feats), and should therefore leave room for Khopesh proficiency and the rest of the critical stuff. So I think if you do want Evasion (and willing to give up Zeal -- I would be fwiw), Paladin 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 may be the way to go.

I'm surprised I don't quickly find this built already on the forums. Might be forced to do it myself. :) Ow, arm twisting...

ronco
04-23-2009, 04:31 PM
Big Thanks Again.. So WF it is and monk sounds very nice... evasion is my hero :D

Greydeath
04-23-2009, 04:34 PM
Here's a thread with some ideas:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176199

But I'm inclined to agree with your initial instinct that Rogue 2 offer more than levels 13 and 14 Paladin - a touch of Sneak Attack and Evasion. EDIT!! SO WRONG. Zeal is at 14. So getting Evasion here is not at all free.
Hard to say... but Pal14 is probably better than Monk/Rogue2.

Holy Sword negates the need for Greenseel weapons (saves those larges!) and will actually bypass DR making them vastly better than tri+

Zeal stacks with Tempest for TWENTY Percent (20%) alacrity!

negative
04-23-2009, 04:45 PM
Zeal stacks with Tempest for TWENTY Percent (20%) alacrity!
More or less.

Still, evasion and 2 feats, or evasion, 1d6 SA, and high UMD might be worth the tradeoff.

Nonan
04-23-2009, 04:48 PM
But, but, but.. you would have to play a WF. ICK!!!!

Actually, nice build talk guys.... I like the way it looks and is changing my mind on a DPS machine... thanks!!!

negative
04-23-2009, 04:51 PM
I've always been a fan of WF Pally's for their immunities and saves.

ronco
04-23-2009, 04:53 PM
so i rolled him up WF.. My 1st WF btw :D..

Stats Are:
STR 16
DEX 15
Con 12
INT 8
WIS 10
CHR 13



Sound better?

lv1 rng
lv2 mnk
3-7 rng
8 mnk
9-16 pal
i dunno if this is a good progression but jus what i though i may do

negative
04-23-2009, 05:00 PM
so i rolled him up WF.. My 1st WF btw :D..

Stats Are:
STR 16
DEX 15
Con 12
INT 8
WIS 10
CHR 13
You'll need a +2 dex tome for GTWF, no biggie, in fact, I'd recommend going that way.

I wish you have more con and CHA, but there really isn't anywhere to take the points from. You could start with 8 WIS if you want, I think (I'm no pally expert), but that gets you either 1 more point of CHA or 20 HP at level 20...so I'm not convienced either will make or break you.

Seems ok to me.

As far as level progression, seems fine. Depending on when you want certain feats (ie: do you need a monk bonus feat @ 2), could also go 1-6 Ranger, 7-8 Monk, rest Pally.

ronco
04-23-2009, 05:14 PM
Good Point... gets me tempest that much faster :D

if any1 could help me decide which feats at whish level it would be alot of help aswell.. was looking at going kopesh and gtwf

negative
04-24-2009, 10:06 AM
Good Point... gets me tempest that much faster :D

if any1 could help me decide which feats at whish level it would be alot of help aswell.. was looking at going kopesh and gtwf
Assuming all 6 ranger levels first.

Edit: Changed feat order to reflect proper BAB progression ( I hope :D )

1-Dodge
3-Mobility
6-Spring Attack
7-Power Attack (Monk Bonus)
8-Toughness (Monk Bonus)
9-Improved Crit Slash
12-GTWF
15-Kopesh
18-??Up to you, I might go for Stunning Blow

Thanimal
04-24-2009, 10:24 AM
Good Point... gets me tempest that much faster :D

if any1 could help me decide which feats at whish level it would be alot of help aswell.. was looking at going kopesh and gtwf

First Warforged!! Welcome to the club. Warforged, built and played "properly," are absolutely awesome. They also can completely blow if NOT built and played well. Although it's way out of date, the following is still worth a read for a WF first-timer:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=126983

Next, let me take a shot at feat progression:

1: Dodge
3: Khopesh proficiency
6: Spring attack
9: iCrit: Slashing
12: gTWF (note that TWF and iTWF were granted by Ranger levels)
15: Toughness

Monk Bonus Feats (in order): Mobility, Power Attack

I don't love postponing Toughness all the way to 15, but I'm afraid everything else is even higher priority?

Although some folks use Khopeshes without proficiency, I don't *think* this build quite has the to-hit pad to do that, mainly because you want fully enhanced Power Attack for -8 to hit / +8 damage per hit. Eating -12 on to-hit *might* be too much. But if you're playing at the cap someday and noticing you never miss anything, you could consider trading it out.

Don't forget to take Healer's Friend I (but not II, which is ridiculously over-costed). This is equivalent to giving yourself and your Clerics a 30% bonus (15 is 30% of 50) on Cure wands/spells. Paladin Lay on Hands operates at full strength on WF, so eventually you won't be a healing burden at all, but Healer's Friend I is always appreciated. And if you do any soloing, you'll be the one appreciating it, since you won't burn through Cure wands. (If your Cleric sees you using Cure Wands on yourself, btw, that's usually good brownie points!)

The only other critical enhancements I can think of are the WF Power Attack line, pretty much every stat bump you can get, and of course Tempest and KotC. Aura enhancements on AC and saves are technically optional, since you're not the tank. But if you can possibly fit them, the guy who is your tank will be VERY happy. (I love Paladin DPS builds for that very reason! I usually play not-full-Paladin intimitanks, so getting a "free" aura from a DPS buid is sweeeet.)

Thanimal
04-24-2009, 10:33 AM
Assuming all 6 ranger levels first. Can't take Imp Crit til 12, and GTWF till 15, unless you hold your monk levels till later, personally, I don't think that is worth it.

I don't think that's true. You only lose one point off BAB from the 2 Monk levels, so at level 9 you have BAB 8, exactly meeting the requirement for iCrit. And at level 12, you have BAB 11, exactly meeting the requirement for gTWF.

Did I hose up my math?

negative
04-24-2009, 11:08 AM
I don't think that's true. You only lose one point off BAB from the 2 Monk levels, so at level 9 you have BAB 8, exactly meeting the requirement for iCrit. And at level 12, you have BAB 11, exactly meeting the requirement for gTWF.

Did I hose up my math?
I think you are right....think I got confused with a true 3/4 bab character. Adjusted my post.

negative
04-24-2009, 11:18 AM
Don't forget to take Healer's Friend I (but not II, which is ridiculously over-costed).
General rule of thumb I've seen is take Healer's Friend I and II, but do not take III.

Did your feat progression use this level progression?
lv1 rng
lv2 mnk
3-7 rng
8 mnk
9-16 pal

One thing I'll note, while I find it appealing to take kopesh early, in all honestly, it's not like you need them for low levels, and it won't be until high levels that you'll be getting any kopeshes worth keeping/buying in the long run. I don't see any real harm in waiting till high level to nab kopesh.

Thanimal
04-24-2009, 11:37 AM
General rule of thumb I've seen is take Healer's Friend I and II, but do not take III.

Can't say I've ever heard that before, but if that is indeed the prevailing wisdom then I disagree. HF2 costs 4 action points for +5 percentage points, which is actually a hair better than that sounds, because you go from 65% to 70%, which means your healing received actually increases by 7.7%. I feel 4 action points is much too high a price to pay for that, given all the great enhancements available. This is even more true for a build that has both good LoHs and full wand usage.



Did your feat progression use this level progression?
lv1 rng
lv2 mnk
3-7 rng
8 mnk
9-16 pal


Yes. Other progressions are fine, too -- mostly personal choice. I like to get the Monk's save increases early -- I'm a shameless saving throw addict. In fact, I personally would get 2 Paladin levels early, and have a planned respec to straighten out the TWF situation after picking up Ranger 6. But that's a little drastic -- probably wouldn't recommend it to others.


One thing I'll note, while I find it appealing to take kopesh early, in all honestly, it's not like you need them for low levels, and it won't be until high levels that you'll be getting any kopeshes worth keeping/buying in the long run. I don't see any real harm in waiting till high level to nab kopesh.

Good points. My knowledge about Khopeshes is .. err .. limited, so I'd trust the opinion of others on this.

Indirectly, this reminds me that oTWF didn't really fit. Eventually this may not matter, but at low levels you'll need a light off-hand weapon. My guess is Kukri is the best choice, with its wide crit range.

negative
04-24-2009, 02:43 PM
Can't say I've ever heard that before, but if that is indeed the prevailing wisdom then I disagree. HF2 costs 4 action points for +5 percentage points, which is actually a hair better than that sounds, because you go from 65% to 70%, which means your healing received actually increases by 7.7%. I feel 4 action points is much too high a price to pay for that, given all the great enhancements available. This is even more true for a build that has both good LoHs and full wand usage.
That is the prevailing wisdom I've seen and use myself, take the tier 2 of HF. I think the main reason is, tier 1 just isn't enough benifit, you need that second tier to keep clerics from refusing to heal you :D Or something. Either way, 4 AP for 5%ish isn't so bad. 6 AP for 5%ish I can't get behind though. Granted this build is AP starved, but I think it is just something you have to do.

Indirectly, this reminds me that oTWF didn't really fit. Eventually this may not matter, but at low levels you'll need a light off-hand weapon. My guess is Kukri is the best choice, with its wide crit range.
Yes, before kopesh, or when needing a light off-hand weapon, I'd go with Scimitar/Kukri.

Thanimal
04-24-2009, 03:52 PM
That is the prevailing wisdom I've seen and use myself, take the tier 2 of HF. I think the main reason is, tier 1 just isn't enough benifit, you need that second tier to keep clerics from refusing to heal you :D Or something. Either way, 4 AP for 5%ish isn't so bad. 6 AP for 5%ish I can't get behind though. Granted this build is AP starved, but I think it is just something you have to do.

Intriguing. I play mostly Warforged, and have never had any trouble with Clerics. But I must admit I lean very tanky. I've never leveled a Barbarian past 4 and I doubt I'll ever roll one up again. But I suppose I could see the case for spending on HF2 on a WF Barbarian -- who, almost by definition, has massive HP and no defenses whatsoever.

But the build we're talking about in this thread actually should end up with not-quite-useless AC (Paladin aura, Tempest bonus, and Monk bonuses all apply here), AND doesn't have a ridiculously huge HP bar, AND has Evasion with great saves, AND has multiple methods of self-healing. Personally, I would not even consider HF2 here.

Agree on Scimitar/Kukri.

Wu_Jen
04-29-2009, 02:52 AM
You better hope that you get a +3 Cha Tome to get your Base 13 CHA up to 16, otherwise you lose out on +2 dmg i.e. +4 sacred dmg from Divine Might II.

Just a thought.

negative
04-29-2009, 09:53 AM
You better hope that you get a +3 Cha Tome to get your Base 13 CHA up to 16, otherwise you lose out on +2 dmg i.e. +4 sacred dmg from Divine Might II.

Just a thought.
Aye, when reviewing the stats I really wanted him to have more CHA, but I just don't know where to get it from, so hard to get your CHA any higher on a WF pally. Though, if you lowered wisdom a little you might be able to atleast a 14.