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View Full Version : Speed boosts: Working as intended?



Thanimal
04-16-2009, 03:56 PM
With a small amount of help from me, cforce has recently completely an elaborate investigation into attack boosts:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2153622#post2153622

We wanted to stick to measurements and concrete analysis on that particular thread, so I'm starting a new one for some opinions, speculations, and suggestions. Important: if you want to argue that the behaviors I'm complaining about below DO NOT HAPPEN, then do so in the above thread, and only after studying his incredibly extensive data. Here I assume that cforce's model of attack boosts is accurate.

I believe the speed boosts are not working as intended. In particular, our research very consistently demonstrated two behaviors that I believe are undesirable:

1) THF gets significantly less increase in DPS from a given set of boosts than either 1HF or TWF. This is true even just with Haste (about +25% DPS vs. about +31% DPS), and gets even worse if you stack several big boosts on top of each other. For example Haste+Fighter Haste Boost IV gives about +55% for THF, but about +67% for TWF. (The basic reason for this is that the fixed overhead is significantly longer for THF than TWF. I don't know why, of course, but I speculate that hit detection & evaluation is much more costly due to wider attack arcs and glancing blows.)

2) Almost the only boost that hits its "intended" target (based on Eladrin's previous description of how boosts work) is the Haste boost applied to 1HF, which gets pretty close to the +33% DPS that would be implied by multiplying the attack time by 0.75. Lesser boosts, such as Tempest alone, actually give a little MORE than intended (about +13% where multiplying duration by 0.9 would be +11%). And stacked boosts give significantly less than the full "intended" speedup. For example, using TWF, stacking Haste, Tempest, and Fighter Haste Boost IV yeilds about +78% DPS, whereas the pure Eladrin-explained stacking should get to .75*.9*.7 animation time factor, or about +112% DPS.

In my opinion, #1 is "clearly" a bug, and I think #2 is also a bug, though a lesser one.

I actually have a theory on exactly how we ended up with the implementation we have, but it's pure speculation so I think I better skip crazy theories and move on to my request.

MY REQUEST

Could the development team do one of the following:
1) Tell us that this is working as intended. (Fair warning: I will then question your intentions :))
2) Take a look at this at some point (ok, after fixing the lag...), and see if you want to implement it so that the actual result of a given set of boosts, regardless of weapon type, is very close to the underlying intended behavior that Eladrin has previously indicated? I believe using cforce's measured overheads should make this relatively easy to do.

THANKS!

BlackSteel
04-17-2009, 06:36 AM
you use 1HF as an example, but go on to use Tempest in the calculations; doesnt the speed boost from tempest ONLY work while TWF?

tihocan
04-17-2009, 08:08 AM
Interesting points... would definitely be interested in a reply on this :)

Thanimal
04-17-2009, 08:28 AM
you use 1HF as an example, but go on to use Tempest in the calculations; doesnt the speed boost from tempest ONLY work while TWF?

You are 100% correct AND I am an idiot! Thanks for the good catch.

EDIT: Turns out I was reporting the numbers for TWF, just incorrectly labelled it as 1HF. Fixed.

Pyromaniac
04-18-2009, 05:32 PM
1) THF gets significantly less increase in DPS from a given set of boosts than either 1HF or TWF.

Seems like expected behavior to me from speed boost...

negative
04-18-2009, 05:38 PM
Seems like expected behavior to me from speed boost...
I think your logic is flawed, regardless, the point seems to be that THF gets less of a speed increase from the same boosts as other styles.

SimVerg
04-18-2009, 05:49 PM
Seems like expected behavior to me from speed boost...

You don't understand what is being discussed then. If we have an ability that says "You attack 25% faster" and TWF/1HF swing 33% more times in a given period while using that ability but THF swings 25% more times in a given period, that isn't what anyone would reasonably call an "expected behavior."

Pyromaniac
04-19-2009, 05:46 AM
I understand what you're saying in terms of +25% speed boost means different things to different toons (though Cforce's thread is not worded in a way to make what's is being said over there easy to understand).

It just appears that the increase is closer to +25% to attacks than +25% equally. End result - the more base attacks you have, the more "speed boost" you get. THF has by far much slower attack speed than TWF. So seems to be working as intended...

SimVerg
04-19-2009, 12:38 PM
I understand what you're saying in terms of +25% speed boost means different things to different toons (though Cforce's thread is not worded in a way to make what's is being said over there easy to understand).

It just appears that the increase is closer to +25% to attacks than +25% equally. End result - the more base attacks you have, the more "speed boost" you get. THF has by far much slower attack speed than TWF. So seems to be working as intended...

Because I suspect there are a lot of people making this mistake, I'll explain it.

Assume you get 100 attacks/min with 2hf, 100 attacks/min with 1hf and 200 attacks/min with 2wf. Haste those toons. The expected result would be 125 attacks/min w/ 2hf(25% more attacks over a given period of time), 125 attacks/min w/ 1hf(25% more attacks over a given period of time), and 250 attacks/min with 2wf(25% more attacks over a given period of time). Instead, you get 125 attacks/min with 2hf(25% more attacks over a given period of time), 130 attacks/min with 1hf(30% more attacks over a given period of time), and 260 attacks/min with 2wf(30% more attacks over a given period of time).

Raithe
04-19-2009, 12:57 PM
If you were to tell me I should be getting 33% increase with haste and 1-handed fighting back when I was on wireless internet, you would be lying through your teeth. The best I ever got was 28%, and during primetime it hovered right at 25%.

You aren't going to get an answer from the developers, and I know why.

cforce
04-19-2009, 08:09 PM
If you were to tell me I should be getting 33% increase with haste and 1-handed fighting back when I was on wireless internet, you would be lying through your teeth. The best I ever got was 28%, and during primetime it hovered right at 25%.

Raithe, I feel like you're missing the point, although I think Thanimal is assuming folks have read my entire findings post in the other thread -- which is, I'll admit, a tall order. Forget about 33% for second -- we know that the boosts can vary by some overhead factors which presumably can vary by connection.

The important point is: over the same connection, *during the same period of time*, it looks like everyone gets less boost on THF than on 1HF.

(TWF sits a bit in between, but is a lot closer to 1HF.)

That's "The Big Problem" that Thanimal is getting at, I think. Not 25%/33% per se; just that THF seems to be unfairly getting the shaft.


You aren't going to get an answer from the developers, and I know why.

OK, I'll bite. Why? (Other than the fact that they won't even come clean and how much of a boost Acrobat is intended to give :rolleyes: .)

Raithe
04-19-2009, 11:54 PM
The important point is: over the same connection, *during the same period of time*, it looks like everyone gets less boost on THF than on 1HF.


Everyone? Meaning you and Thanimal? I think you need to call on everyone who reads this thread to give you their measurements of attack speeds. I think you'll find that "everyone" is different.

But I've already explained all this.

Oh, and btw did you ever check on slowed rates of attack? I did.



OK, I'll bite. Why? (Other than the fact that they won't even come clean and how much of a boost Acrobat is intended to give :rolleyes: .)


Don't take my statement as an attempt to get you to "bite." I guess you could call it a little bit of a warning, but mostly it was simply a statement, and not directed at you or Thanimal.

cforce
04-20-2009, 09:26 AM
Everyone? Meaning you and Thanimal?

Actually, what I said was "it looks like everyone", meaning observations held across multiple characters, on two different accounts, on multiple ISPs in different parts of the country, with no-one ever submitting any data to the contrary. If someone does do some contrary data gathering, I'm more than willing to revise my opinion, as I have been all along. Just so we're clear, because I think there may be some confusion...


But I've already explained all this.

...you haven't submitted any data that contradicts this THF/1HF assertion. If you have some, by all means, please bring it forward!

So, yes: I'm generalizing from results across two different platforms to the whole, so long as no-one presents any contradicting test results. If that's not good enough for you... <shrug> I'm not sure what else to say. Clearly I can't force anyone else to repeat the tests.


Oh, and btw did you ever check on slowed rates of attack? I did.

Er, OK? And? They resulted in data that would affect our discussion about how THF boosts compare to 1HF boosts on the same client/connection? Once again, I'm not clear where you're going, or what point you're trying to make.