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Thrudh
04-08-2009, 11:37 AM
I'm surprised there aren't any posts about the Charm spell change...

I'm sad that charmed mobs won't follow us anymore (only dominated mobs).

And my bard so enjoyed being followed by armies of charmed mobs...

Laith
04-08-2009, 11:41 AM
sure, it's a nerf, but charm has always been a bit too powerful for my tastes and there was never a reason to use dominate.

Another issue is that with Dismiss Charm, the only reason NOT to just charm everything possible was removed.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-08-2009, 11:42 AM
I agree, this is a sad day for the charm spell, and for Bards in particular. I know that bards have a music alternative but lets be honest, most groups barely give you time to facinate, I've never seen a group let you facinate and suggest.

Darth_Sizzle
04-08-2009, 11:45 AM
I'm sad that charmed mobs won't follow us anymore (only dominated mobs).

What makes you think dominated mobs will behave differently than charmed mobs?


Another issue is that with Dismiss Charm, the only reason NOT to just charm everything possible was removed.

How is this an issue? Players have been asking for this for some time now (and really, it makes perfect sense.)

thatguy
04-08-2009, 11:47 AM
It never hurts to be a bit for a charmer, got me out of trouble more times then I can count.

MrCow
04-08-2009, 11:49 AM
My general charm strategy for quite a while was gather crowd, symbol of persuasion, crowd is charmed. Ultimately, it changes little for me.

Laith
04-08-2009, 11:50 AM
How is this an issue? Players have been asking for this for some time now (and really, it makes perfect sense.)i LOVE the addition of the ability, but the inability to dismiss charms was the primary reason charming fell out of favor for many players in the first place.

With dismissal made easy, charm suddenly loses its primary drawback (dependant on the cooldown of the Dismiss Charm ability). Just saying it makes it easier to use charm spells without consequence is all.

Memnir
04-08-2009, 11:50 AM
What makes you think dominated mobs will behave differently than charmed mobs?From the Compendium update w/ the release notes (link (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Lamannia_Update_9.0_Official#General _Spell_Changes)):

Dominated creatures now appear with blue spell effects, and will follow their master through dungeons. Charmed monsters now tend to remain in the room which they were charmed in.

redoubt
04-08-2009, 11:51 AM
I'm surprised there aren't any posts about the Charm spell change...

I'm sad that charmed mobs won't follow us anymore (only dominated mobs).

And my bard so enjoyed being followed by armies of charmed mobs...

Holy F***!!! batman... I'm gonna have to read that again... if charmed mobs no longer follow us I'm going to be ****ed! That will make 3 dead characters due to mod 9 (of the six I still play.)

Found it... and I hate it... I was so excited that we got mass charm monster that we should have had 2 mods ago that I did not noticed they nerfed the hell out of it.

Why?????

Any why am I still putting up with it...

Darth_Sizzle
04-08-2009, 11:52 AM
From the Compendium update w/ the release notes (link (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Lamannia_Update_9.0_Official#General _Spell_Changes)):

Dominated creatures now appear with blue spell effects, and will follow their master through dungeons. Charmed monsters now tend to remain in the room which they were charmed in.


Oh, cool, right on then.

redoubt
04-08-2009, 11:53 AM
My general charm strategy for quite a while was gather crowd, symbol of persuasion, crowd is charmed. Ultimately, it changes little for me.

But if they will not follow you, what are you going to do?

Phidius
04-08-2009, 11:53 AM
I'm surprised there aren't any posts about the Charm spell change...

I'm sad that charmed mobs won't follow us anymore (only dominated mobs).

And my bard so enjoyed being followed by armies of charmed mobs...

I use Suggestion, but carefully and with a specific goal... not to convert the entire instance to a cult in my honor :)

1. Even the odds: Convert a few of them to my side. United they stand, divided they fall. None leave the room alive.

2. Diversion: When zerging through a quest, a charmed minion can keep the aggro in the room I just left as long as they want (or can).

3. Turn the tables: My annoyance with Air Elementals is mitigated by having them on my side from time to time... however, I don't mind them staying in the room once everything is dead. By the time the spell wears off, I'll be far far away.

I'm waiting to see how this will effect the game, but I doubt it will change my play style.



sure, it's a nerf, but charm has always been a bit too powerful for my tastes and there was never a reason to use dominate.

Another issue is that with Dismiss Charm, the only reason NOT to just charm everything possible was removed.

How can something be too powerful for your taste?

I keep Dispel Magic loaded to remove my minion's hats... not sure if I'd give up AP for a 3rd level spell.

Fennario
04-08-2009, 11:55 AM
I kind of like it actually.

- mass charm room full of mobs

- dismiss mobs from charm one at a time

- watch/help other mobs kill it

- repeat

-OR-

- mass charm room full of mobs

- leave room

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 11:56 AM
What makes you think dominated mobs will behave differently than charmed mobs?


From the Release Notes:

Dominated creatures now appear with blue spell effects, and will follow their master through dungeons. Charmed monsters now tend to remain in the room which they were charmed in.

Bards don't get Dominate Monster (Should this be added as a 6th level bard spell?)

How does Suggestion work? I've never understood the difference between Suggestion and Charm. Is it just the duration? (Suggestion has a fixed duration, Charm requires a save?)

Memnir
04-08-2009, 11:57 AM
My only question about Dismiss Charm is: Will it be selective (highlight charmed monster - hit Dismiss Charm for that monster alone)... or will Dismiss Charm blank all active Charms your caster has at that moment?

If I missed that answer, please let me know. :) But, it's something I've been curious about since reading we are getting the ability to voluntarily cancel our own charms.

Laith
04-08-2009, 11:57 AM
How can something be too powerful for your taste?
A lot of it has to do with the fact that DDO charm & suggestion spells are grossly more powerful than in D&D, in that they actually give you minions (ala a Dominate spell).

Other points include: charmed creatures have unlimited SP and can easily be used to exploit* monster AI (including aggro and pathing).

*not calling charm an exploit, but you can use it to abuse issues to greater effect with charms (and CCs).

Zenako
04-08-2009, 12:00 PM
OF some interest will be how far a charmed monster will roam in an explorer area and still be "in its room"? I know I would often charm some of the Air Elementals in the Vale to punish the random mobs in the area for example.

Laith
04-08-2009, 12:07 PM
I keep Dispel Magic loaded to remove my minion's hats... not sure if I'd give up AP for a 3rd level spell.Dismiss Charm is listed under the "feats" section, along with all the other feats that classes will be getting for free.

Phidius
04-08-2009, 12:09 PM
How does Suggestion work? I've never understood the difference between Suggestion and Charm. Is it just the duration? (Suggestion has a fixed duration, Charm requires a save?)

Both require a save. However, Suggestion just has the initial save, while Charm has continual saves.

I use Suggestion because I prefer to know how long I can depend on my minion... not a big fan of surprises.


A lot of it has to do with the fact that DDO charm & suggestion spells are grossly more powerful than in D&D, in that they actually give you minions (ala a Dominate spell).

Other points include: charmed creatures have unlimited SP and can easily be used to exploit monster AI and pathing (not calling charm an exploit, but you can use it to abuse issues to greater effect with charms).

I suppose... I found it powerful because it took out at least 2 monsters with one spell. The one that got charmed, and the one that it aggroed on.

To be honest, I never paid much attention to monster AI beyond that.


OF some interest will be how far a charmed monster will roam in an explorer area and still be "in its room"? I know I would often charm some of the Air Elementals in the Vale to punish the random mobs in the area for example.

Aye, inquiring minds want to know! I'm betting that the "room" they are charmed in is not going to be defined the same way we define a room...

Thelmallen
04-08-2009, 12:10 PM
Your post is exactly what I concluded my casters would do in light of this change. I would agree, however, that charm and suggestion were relatively over powered for their spell levels. With my new WF wiz/rog, charm person is essentially a temporary finger of death as it totally takes them out of the fight for a duration; actually better than that as they fight FOR you.

On the whole, I like this change, actually.


I kind of like it actually.

- mass charm room full of mobs

- dismiss mobs from charm one at a time

- watch/help other mobs kill it

- repeat

-OR-

- mass charm room full of mobs

- leave room

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:10 PM
Considering we get Dismiss Charm and Charm Monster, Mass, I'd say it's a good trade. ;)

Mass Charm Monster would probably have been overpowered otherwise. Oh, and it makes Dominate more useful! :)

Phidius
04-08-2009, 12:10 PM
Dismiss Charm is listed under the "feats" section, along with all the other feats that classes will be getting for free.

Oh good... I thought it was an enhancement.

In that case, I'm getting a free 3rd level spell slot!

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:11 PM
In that case, I'm getting a free 3rd level spell slot!
It's a free feat, I am assuming. Like Dismiss Rage is.

Darth_Sizzle
04-08-2009, 12:11 PM
Aye, inquiring minds want to know! I'm betting that the "room" they are charmed in is not going to be defined the same way we define a room...

My guess is that they'll go as far as they would normally chase you down (in a non-charmed state).

redoubt
04-08-2009, 12:15 PM
Considering we get Dismiss Charm and Charm Monster, Mass, I'd say it's a good trade. ;)

Mass Charm Monster would probably have been overpowered otherwise. Oh, and it makes Dominate more useful! :)

I'll give back dismiss charm as my sorc carries both dispell and break enchantment.

I'd rather have a fully functioning charm spell.

rimble
04-08-2009, 12:17 PM
sure, it's a nerf, but charm has always been a bit too powerful for my tastes and there was never a reason to use dominate.

This. Fun as hell, but extremely overpowered. I like the new distinction between Charm and Dominate.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:19 PM
Oh, and it makes Dominate more useful! :)

Except bards don't get Dominate Monsters, so the masters of enchantment are left out :(

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:21 PM
I'd rather have a fully functioning charm spell.
Mass Charm Monster would probably have been overpowered. Take Dominate Monster if you don't like it.

Plus, what we got is far better than the PnP version.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:21 PM
Both require a save. However, Suggestion just has the initial save, while Charm has continual saves.

I use Suggestion because I prefer to know how long I can depend on my minion... not a big fan of surprises.

Except I always charmed more than one... and they never break at the same time... If I got three trolls following me, and one breaks... the other two take care of him for me...

Charmed monsters could last for a LONG time...

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:22 PM
Except bards don't get Dominate Monsters, so the masters of enchantment are left out :(
There are a lot of issues with CC/healing bards.

Eladrin has a big challenge with Spellsinger II-III if he wants them to be more than songbots.

Fennario
04-08-2009, 12:24 PM
Except bards don't get Dominate Monsters, so the masters of enchantment are left out :(

I'd say that a wiz/sorc totally specced for enchantment is more of a master than a bard specced for the same.

But I feel what you are saying. Bards don't have any options other than enchantment really.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:24 PM
There are a lot of issues with CC/healing bards.

Eladrin has a big challenge with Spellsinger II-III if he wants them to be more than songbots.


True dat.

TEK
04-08-2009, 12:26 PM
I'd say that a wiz/sorc totally specced for enchantment is more of a master than a bard specced for the same.


I would hope so, otherwise the title of master of none would be sooo undeserving:rolleyes:

Fennario
04-08-2009, 12:26 PM
There are a lot of issues with CC/healing bards.

Eladrin has a big challenge with Spellsinger II-III if he wants them to be more than songbots.


Yes, and the mass heal spell (which I'm sure will not be found on scrolls at the vendor) is gonna make it tough for healing bards as well.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-08-2009, 12:27 PM
What makes you think dominated mobs will behave differently than charmed mobs?)

It's in the new spell description for dominate.

TEK
04-08-2009, 12:29 PM
There are a lot of issues with CC/healing bards.

Eladrin has a big challenge with Spellsinger II-III if he wants them to be more than songbots.

OFT. they arent doing anything creative with their songs at all, they usually get the short end of the stick when it comes to new implemented spells, and there is no feat that really benefits them on a unique level.

kinda sucks really

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:31 PM
Yes, and the mass heal spell (which I'm sure will not be found on scrolls at the vendor) is gonna make it tough for healing bards as well.
I would not be very surprised to see Spellsinger III grant Heal, to be honest.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:32 PM
Exactly. I would not be very surprised to see Spellsinger III grant Heal, to be honest.

Heh, well then my 16/4 Bard/Rogue healing-specced Spell-singer is in trouble...

(made sure to get 16 levels of bard to ensure I could get 6th level spells)

Laith
04-08-2009, 12:32 PM
I would not be very surprised to see Spellsinger III grant Heal, to be honest.and virtuoso could grant Dominate... both using spell points of course. fits with their themes thus far.

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:33 PM
they arent doing anything creative with their songs at all
I would expect this to be the job of Virtuoso, rather than Spellsinger.

Phidius
04-08-2009, 12:33 PM
It's a free feat, I am assuming. Like Dismiss Rage is.

Exactly - I keep Dispel Magic loaded for getting rid of my minions. A free feat for dismissing charm means I get that spell slot back.

I just realized that I also use Dispel Magic to create a mob (summon then dispel). Unless this new Dismiss Charm does the same thing, I guess I'll keep Dispel Magic after all.

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:33 PM
Heh, well then my 16/4 Bard/Rogue healing-specced Spell-singer is in trouble...
[Insert here the R word]

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:34 PM
[Insert here the R word]


Re-spec? or Re-roll?

Borror0
04-08-2009, 12:35 PM
Re-spec? or Re-roll?
Which one do you think I would say?

eldorniliel
04-08-2009, 12:36 PM
I have never really used charm personally, I sometimes use suggestion on my bard and wizard which usually lasts longer than charm anyhow. Does anyone know if this only affects the charm line or suggestion too? Either way, personally I have always found charm to be something you can only use every once in a while since there are so many doors that open via killing everything. It is nice in the vale though...

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:37 PM
Which one do you think I would say?

Heh, re-spec... which is good because reroll is out of the question. This guy was my second character ever, first drow... my favorite for a long time... it would be very depressing to reroll him...

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:39 PM
I have never really used charm personally, I sometimes use suggestion on my bard and wizard which usually lasts longer than charm anyhow. Does anyone know if this only affects the charm line or suggestion too? Either way, personally I have always found charm to be something you can only use every once in a while since there are so many doors that open via killing everything. It is nice in the vale though...


There aren't THAT many doors like that... Maybe 5-10% of quests have mechanics like that...

There is no joy like watching your 10-15 troll army (hasted and songs) tear through all opposition before you.

(I think I realize now why they nerfed it)


Bards need Dominate Monster!

Kalari
04-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Charm was the reason Kalari got to capped. When I was bored it was fun to run in the desert with my gnoll minions. Its come in handy from time to time with elementals as well so yeah gonna miss it after the changes take place. Never used Dominate before but charm, mass suggestion and suggestion have had a place in my spell book a few times.

Laith
04-08-2009, 12:44 PM
There aren't THAT many doors like that... Maybe 5-10% of quests have mechanics like that...most of them are found in low level quests though, and foster a fear of charming early on.

Fortunately, dismiss charm will go a long way to remove the fear of casting such a powerful line of spells.

Kalanth
04-08-2009, 12:47 PM
I have a charm spec'd warchanter and this change does not really bug me much. I use charm as more of a crowd control tactic as it is, so if the crowd does not follow me now (unless I dominate them) then that is fine with me. Leaving the mob behind is a lot like insta-death without the numbers.

Kalari
04-08-2009, 12:51 PM
I can see a lot of charmed ck combos...oops no scratch that

charmed firewall? no maybe eh?

I liked having minions with charm but i'll just use suggestion unless thats borked to then I just give up I never did play enchantresses well anyway. Im more of a confuse hold and kill whatever crosses my path before it squishes me gal.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 12:55 PM
I have a charm spec'd warchanter and this change does not really bug me much. I use charm as more of a crowd control tactic as it is, so if the crowd does not follow me now (unless I dominate them) then that is fine with me. Leaving the mob behind is a lot like insta-death without the numbers.

Yeah to be honest, I used charm more as a CC too... (Charm one from a distance, let all the others aggro on it, then the party runs in swinging)

Most PUGs wouldn't let me create armies... but it sure was fun when I did so...

Nevthial
04-08-2009, 12:59 PM
I use Charm spells alot, but it looks like I'll just have to switch to Dominate in all forms.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 01:01 PM
I use Charm spells alot, but it looks like I'll just have to switch to Dominate in all forms.

Unless you're a bard, in which case you can't switch to Dominate Monster.

TEK
04-08-2009, 01:03 PM
I would expect this to be the job of Virtuoso, rather than Spellsinger.


no i expect this from all three considering that the songs for all three are creative and original in their own right.

yeah i expect the virtuoso to shine a little, but my comment is mostly aimed at bards in general regardless of enhancement specs.

although i guess its kind of a moot point since there isnt much of an excuse to not take one of the 3 types of bards huh.

Nevthial
04-08-2009, 01:04 PM
Unless you're a bard, in which case you can't switch to Dominate Monster.

I know, sorry. It does take the fun out of things. ( Or it has the potential to for certain.)

Kalanth
04-08-2009, 01:25 PM
Dominate monster would be a nice addition to the Bard rotation. I know I basically just go down the line until it works (skipping the ones I know obviously wont work) and go from there. Dominate is my favorite because it tends to last the longest, but having an army of Orthons and Beaded Devils is fun too. :)

The one question I have is how do they define "rooms" in the explorer zones? No real rooms out there unless you are talking the Subterain, and even then it is a bit of a stretch.

Raithe
04-08-2009, 01:41 PM
First, I took their description of charm to simply mean that charmed mobs won't follow you... period. They will aggro on other things in their vicinity, but won't follow the caster around. The "room" reference was unnecessary, by my interpretation.

Second, this is an excellent change that may actually make charms for my enchantress sorceror a possibility again, though I will probably use them sparingly.

I may also contemplate switching a spell out for dominate person.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 01:46 PM
this is an excellent change that may actually make charms for my enchantress sorceror a possibility again, though I will probably use them sparingly.

I may also contemplate switching a spell out for dominate person.

I'm confused by these two statements. If the original charm was no good before, why would you want dominate person now (since it equals the original charm now).

I'm also curious what is wrong with today's charms and why you choose not to use them today in their present form...

Raithe
04-08-2009, 01:49 PM
I'm confused by these two statements. If the original charm was no good before, why would you want dominate person now (since it equals the original charm now).

I'm also curious what is wrong with today's charms and why you choose not to use them today in their present form...

Mostly flavor reasons. I'm sure you don't care about those, so I won't bother you with the details.

As a secondary point, it simply makes many quests far too easy and invalidates the need for an actual group. A stupid game is no fun to play.

Emili
04-08-2009, 01:56 PM
Always had a bad habbit of charming the oranged nameds by mistake... I typically charm half the mob and let them fight it out. Also with charms I do take a few along with me to pull the initial agro and I will gather some more to offset for when it wears off, I guess that changes. The dispell will be nice as will save me from using my songs for song of freedom.

dameron
04-08-2009, 02:35 PM
I have two capped enchanters and I doubt this will change the way I play at all. I rarely, if ever, lead a mob of purple hats around.

If they tend to stay in the same room, good. Having the option to Dominate a mob and have it follow you around, also good.

Maegin
04-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Ive been running a virtuoso bard since it came out, never did spellsinger or warchanter. To be honest, with the addition of mass suggestion as a bard song, and the fact that virt 1 enthrallment has no save, I forsee virt 2 getting a type of mass charm/dominate with no save, assuming you used enthrallment or facinate to get them. Obviously it would be immune to red and stuff thats immune already to bardic songs, but It really just seems to fit the bill. But what if virt 2 allowed charming outsiders? that'd be sweet.

I know Ill be happy with something more offensivly to do with 24 songs per shrine and a huge perform skill with my bard cloak ^_^ othre than passing out inspire heroics/competence to everyone all the time, or having enough for tough raids AND especially being still able to keep up the rotation of standard att/dmg/hp songs.

Perhapps mass heal scrolls will have a tough UMD, but still useable, and spellsinger 2 will allow faster scroll casting too.

but as for charms being left in the room? sweet job there. Charm, and move on.

And now dominate monster is better translated, since you get to make them your biatch, cause they are dominated, instead of just a lil charm, allowing for safe passage or aid.

my 2pp.

MrCow
04-08-2009, 02:59 PM
But if they will not follow you, what are you going to do?

I'll leave them behind, as the army of charmed things won't follow so I don't have the overhead of killing them later to worry about.

VKhaun
04-08-2009, 03:33 PM
I kind of like it actually.

- mass charm room full of mobs

- dismiss mobs from charm one at a time

- watch/help other mobs kill it

- repeat

-OR-

- mass charm room full of mobs

- leave room



This is actually redundant and bears repeating again for emphasis. :)

Now: Charm 5 mobs and have 5 mobs follow you that you must deal with later, or stand around and wait for 20min while they fight things. You lose efficiency unless the quest is very short or it's a short distance to the next location where they can no longer follow you vs killing them.

Mod9: Charm 5 mobs and leave. First one to resist is dropped by 4 still-charmed mobs. Next is killed by 3, by 2, 1vs1, and you've got one enemy with low health that MIGHT be coming after you if you haven't gone past something to prevent it's following.


At the end of the day and considering the remove charm spell, I think this is an improvement, especially for low levels.

Thrudh
04-08-2009, 03:38 PM
Now: Charm 5 mobs and have 5 mobs follow you that you must deal with later, or stand around and wait for 20min while they fight things. You lose efficiency unless the quest is very short or it's a short distance to the next location where they can no longer follow you vs killing them.

Do you actually charm monsters now? It's more like... charm 5 monsters, they break individually, the other still charmed ones deal with them, all while you're on the move...

If you continue to charm new minions along the way, you NEVER have to deal with the mobs that become uncharmed...

People always say I don't want to deal with them when they become uncharmed.. I can only assume those people are using mass suggestion, where they all break at the same time. Charm is vastly superior to that.


Mod9: Charm 5 mobs and leave. First one to resist is dropped by 4 still-charmed mobs. Next is killed by 3, by 2, 1vs1, and you've got one enemy with low health that MIGHT be coming after you if you haven't gone past something to prevent it's following.

This is how it works now... I'm completely confused by your post.

dormetheus
04-08-2009, 04:11 PM
HUGE boost to charm. Thanks devs.

The worst part of charm (aside from having to dispel) was having them break near you, especially casters aoe dmg. It's not like the charmies could usually keep up with the party anyway.

Plus, parties didn't like charmies following them around. I guess they're paranoid or something. Now, the party just gets to leave them behind.

(Also, it boosts "misadventure" kill counts. *winks*)

Humperdink
04-08-2009, 04:26 PM
This conversation happened in another thread already actually. What happy stuff are you people smoking? They've taken away the ability to mass charm a group and have them follow you, especially for a known fixed duration (Mass Suggestion). Instead they have replaced it with one single target spell where monster gets a will save every 23 seconds on average. (Dominate Monster duration- 3d6+12 seconds) That means a will save 3 times a minute instead of no save for 4 minutes. We're about to start fighting CR20ish (give or take a few points) demons and devils in their home plane. They are outsiders. That means high saves and high spell resistance. A save 3 times a minute....get it?

That means more of a mana drain as you have to cast each one individually. I personally think there should of maybe been a cap based on your level and perhaps your primary stat. In the tradition of a classic Enchanter, an epic level 20th level arcane caster *should* be able to mass enchant 5-6 powerful monsters in one casting and have them under his control, which includes following him. I agree being able to create mass armies of 30-40 followers was perhaps a little too much for game play balance and system resources.

Oh, and not being able to enchant Orange named is a fair change in my opinion.

captain1z
04-09-2009, 01:52 AM
Changing the charm to work as they say it will would never have been a big issue if we had summoned pets that could take a hit and give as good as they get. They dont and the mobs do thus our desire to charm them instead.

bunsdavy
04-16-2009, 05:17 AM
The way suggestion works, it's more like a very short term domination, as they take your "suggestions" even stronger than the "friend" you've made with charm would.

I like the change myself, I use suggestion as a bard. I'm sure the way charm works if you're running from an enemy that has one of your charmed buddies after him, then thats the way you could get the charmed guy to "follow" you.


So hopefully suggestion will be a "blue hat" spell (short term domination), and they'll follow you anywhere (since you suggested they should! :)) but only for 30 seconds. or 1 minute extended. If you want a long term buddy you'll have to recast the spell, or use a dominate type spell.



The way the bard suggestion song works, i'm sure that also would be a "blue hat" effect, though it's not dispellable as magic (but the dispel charm abilty would still work) . And not sure about it's duration compared to the suggestion spell. You spend all the time playing music for some monster (fascination and the suggestion song) you expect a little more than a guy who's just going to sit there.


we're just lucky they havent made players get affected these ways... a vampire dominating a sorceror and fireballing/firewalling his own party would be funny but very tragic ;) (or a mind flayer psionically dominating somebody)



I agree about summons needing to be tougher... they could at least add the "augment summoning" feat for conjurers which makes summons tougher.