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View Full Version : Archery gets nerfed EVEN MORE!



sephiroth1084
04-07-2009, 03:04 PM
Perhaps the devs overlooked this, or simply don't care, but the transmuting nerf hurts archers more than anyone else. Sure, archers already had a (somewhat) easier time dealing with metal- and metal + alignment-based DR, but they still required a transmuter to deal with DR/bludgeoning and DR/slashing.

Now archers no longer have that option.

So, why don't we get some slashing and bludgeoning arrows introduced? They do exist somewhere in the PnP rules, so we're not going over new territory. But if they do get implemented, please do so across the board. That is, with standard, masterwork, +1-+5 magical, elemental, aligned, sturdy, metal typed, and the other various House D versions!

Perhaps even alter them to apply variant stats:

Slashing - decreases weapon damage die by 2 steps (1d4 for longbows, 1d3 for shortbows), but increase base threat range by 1 (standard bows would have a 19-20, improved to 17-20 with Improved Crit or Keen, while the Silver Bow would be 1d6 18-20/x3).

Bludgeoning - increase weapon damage by 1 step (1d10 for longbows, 1d8 for short), but decrease crit multiplier by 1 step (Silver Bow would be 1d12 19-20/x2).

sephiroth1084
04-07-2009, 03:14 PM
Oh, and what's the point of a RoF boost (Ranger 20) when rangers will suddenly have their damage against some monsters cut so much?

Laith
04-07-2009, 03:18 PM
what's funny about this nerf is that since transmuting came out there has been exactly ONE reason to pick up a bludgeoning weapon (weighted+stunning blow), and now everyone wants them.

Kalari
04-07-2009, 03:18 PM
Yeah my transmuting bow and silver bow were two of my favorites, now I will have to make room for more weapons and hope I dont become burden for carrying a weapon for every occasion now.

Meh enough complaining not like its gonna matter much anyway and ive dinner to cook.

Slink
04-07-2009, 03:19 PM
Somewhere I had read a post stating that elemental/alignment based arrows would be available somewhere in the future.
I had neglected to think of this valid point.

Maybe RoF increase is their answer...

*shudder*

Quanefel
04-07-2009, 03:28 PM
If I remember correctly, yes there was some blunt arrows in P&P. I can not recall the name of them but they were there. That would be a nice thing to add to the game if the Dev's were up to it.

RavenBrother
04-07-2009, 03:31 PM
Haven't used a transmuting bow on my Ranger....in like forever... :) My +5 Shock longbow of pure good out damages my +1 transmuting longbow of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. No biggie here. Besides... I don't range him except for the 20 seconds of multishot..even then in mele range.... I do more damage with my rapiers.

feynman
04-07-2009, 03:33 PM
It's not a nerf, it's a bug fix!

Oh, how the worm turns. It's not so fun when you're on the receiving end, is it? Of course, if some of you weren't hypocrites about nerfs, I might be sympathetic. As it is, you get what you give: Nothing.

maddmatt70
04-07-2009, 04:05 PM
Fighters, ironically one of the other hard pressed groups in mod 8 also gets nerfed. Their weapons are based on a specific weapon unlike any of the other classes. This means that if something is dr/slash, dr/pierced, or dr/bludgeon fighters invariably do less damage to it..

sephiroth1084
04-08-2009, 08:09 AM
Haven't used a transmuting bow on my Ranger....in like forever... :) My +5 Shock longbow of pure good out damages my +2 transmuting longbow of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. No biggie here. Besides... I don't range him except for the 20 seconds of multishot..even then in mele range.... I do more damage with my rapiers.

Not talking about the Pit Fiend here. I'm talking about skeletons, zombies, liches, clay golems, etc... All the creatures that require a trait that archery has NO way to replicate.


It's not a nerf, it's a bug fix!

Oh, how the worm turns. It's not so fun when you're on the receiving end, is it? Of course, if some of you weren't hypocrites about nerfs, I might be sympathetic. As it is, you get what you give: Nothing.

Shut it and get out. Honestly, are you going to equate this to the change made to the Minos Legens? Why did they ever allow you to start posting again?


Fighters, ironically one of the other hard pressed groups in mod 8 also gets nerfed. Their weapons are based on a specific weapon unlike any of the other classes. This means that if something is dr/slash, dr/pierced, or dr/bludgeon fighters invariably do less damage to it..

Yup. While I understand the desire to change transmuting (it really invalidated too many other options and was, itself way too powerful), their timing for changing it is really terrible.

miceelf88
04-08-2009, 08:22 AM
Would it really be overpowered to scale back the transmuting nerf to include piercing/slashing/blunt?
Aren't those physical qualities in much the same sense that adamantine is?

Cinwulf
04-08-2009, 08:54 AM
Not talking about the Pit Fiend here. I'm talking about skeletons, zombies, liches, clay golems, etc... All the creatures that require a trait that archery has NO way to replicate.

I use a +5 transmuting bow on the pit fiend, the combat log says I'm doing slashing damage; at least till mod9...

Uska
04-08-2009, 09:03 AM
If I remember correctly, yes there was some blunt arrows in P&P. I can not recall the name of them but they were there. That would be a nice thing to add to the game if the Dev's were up to it.

I think blunt arrows are called farring arrows

Uska
04-08-2009, 09:07 AM
Would it really be overpowered to scale back the transmuting nerf to include piercing/slashing/blunt?
Aren't those physical qualities in much the same sense that adamantine is?

while I dont like the change its not the same quality the transmuting is changing the material qualites as in the metal the weapon is composed of not the morphology as in shape the item is.

Kintro
04-08-2009, 09:15 AM
My +5 Shock longbow of pure good out damages my +2 transmuting longbow of Greater Evil Outsider Bane.

It does? 2d6+5 vs 3d6+6, the transmuter should win. You could also put Holy arrows in the transmuter for another 2d6.

Anyway, blunt/slashing arrows would be cool! Wish I'd sold my trans/undead bane bow now ...

The_Phenx
04-08-2009, 09:23 AM
This may come off silly... but I never understood the whole transmuting bow thing.

Does it really matter what the bow is made of? its the arrow that hits the mob anyway...now transmuting arrows would have made more sense.


I just want exploding arrows.

Kintro
04-08-2009, 09:55 AM
Does it really matter what the bow is made of? its the arrow that hits the mob anyway...now transmuting arrows would have made more sense.


Maybe for 250 house D favour? *looks around hopefully for a dev*

sephiroth1084
04-08-2009, 09:59 AM
This may come off silly... but I never understood the whole transmuting bow thing.

Does it really matter what the bow is made of? its the arrow that hits the mob anyway...now transmuting arrows would have made more sense.


I just want exploding arrows.

Bows confer their magical properties to their ammo--just as a flaming bow will shoot fire arrows, so too would a transmuting bow shoot trans. arrows.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 10:14 AM
Would it really be overpowered to scale back the transmuting nerf to include piercing/slashing/blunt?
Aren't those physical qualities in much the same sense that adamantine is?

I always considered transmuting to be mainly "re-shaping" the form of your weapon. The edge of a sword can easily become blunt. But to change its material type, now that would need some serious chemical reactions :p Sounds as stupid as you're making gold out of water.

Ollathir
04-08-2009, 10:42 AM
Very sad but good point OP.

There are several unwelcoming changes coming that promise to make the game less enjoyable unless the devs had the forsight to balance others issues, ( I know we'll all see when the mod is released, but I'm leaning towards no). Those that consider transmuting to be broke fail to see it helped balance the game as it stands now w/ regard to combat.

The ability to specialize in a weapon class, slash, pierce etc., or FTR Enh., provided more damage output in combat. (The benefits of killing a mob in 3-5 secs, vs 6-10 secs is self evident when you look at the big picture, less time = less resources. Same for bosses.)

More room in your inventory space, (the amount of items you will need now to balance this oversight will increase).

Ranged combat, like you said, is going to take a hit. The Ranger Capstone now seems as irrelevant as the Rogue Capstone with the WoP, Transmuting Nerf, pulling the Ranger back into the shadows of yesteryear.

In all the Transmuting change promises to make damage less effective when you specialize a wpn. Which means you need to carry more wpns which can clutter your inventory, ( I have problems looting as it is with some of my characters) which can lead to burdoning some, provide longer combat sessions which effect the combatants gear and the casters, healers resources = more grind.
And Rangers... well, like I said.

I don't see how these changes are supposed to be an improvement when you destabilize the mechanics of the game. To balance the coming change we would need more inventory space, (or items that would help unburdon Dex blds), lower spell point cost, more effective arrows/bolts for those hvy reap. (Melees are pretty much hosed with regard to thier gear.)

GunboatDiplomat
04-08-2009, 11:10 AM
Blunt arrows?

Umm, I know we're playing in a fantasy world with magic and dragons and everything but we generally use basic laws of physics.

The only way you could make arrows do bludgeoning as opposed to pierce damage is to widen the tip significantly. (Removing or blunting the arrow tip would not work as the arrow would still pierce the target)

If you widen the tip of the arrow you make it very unstable in flight, massively reducing its range.

Believe it or not I've actually used arrows with specially widened latex covered tips in Live Roleplaying. After about 20 feet you couldn't hit a barn door. That was only with a 25lb bow. I also found the flight was more stable the less power you put into it.

I guess you could have the 'Stormreavers bow' with massive arrows. But you you'd have to be a giant to use it and I don't think they're planning to add giants as a playable race until quite some time after half orcs.

Which is a shame cause their dances are hilarious :D

The_Phenx
04-08-2009, 11:14 AM
Arcane Archer... exploding arrow that does bludgeon damage.

Problem solved... :D

sephiroth1084
04-08-2009, 11:28 AM
Blunt arrows?

Umm, I know we're playing in a fantasy world with magic and dragons and everything but we generally use basic laws of physics.

The only way you could make arrows do bludgeoning as opposed to pierce damage is to widen the tip significantly. (Removing or blunting the arrow tip would not work as the arrow would still pierce the target)

If you widen the tip of the arrow you make it very unstable in flight, massively reducing its range.

Believe it or not I've actually used arrows with specially widened latex covered tips in Live Roleplaying. After about 20 feet you couldn't hit a barn door. That was only with a 25lb bow. I also found the flight was more stable the less power you put into it.

I guess you could have the 'Stormreavers bow' with massive arrows. But you you'd have to be a giant to use it and I don't think they're planning to add giants as a playable race until quite some time after half orcs.

Which is a shame cause their dances are hilarious :D

As you acknowledged, this is a game with dragons and magic and living constructst and instantaneous spacial movement (teleport)...

I think that including blunt arrows for the sake of game balance is a far cry from being unbelievable.

And we don't have very realistic physics here: I can immerse myself in lava without injury, and can leap off of a 6 story building without dying or even breaking a bone.

GunboatDiplomat
04-08-2009, 11:33 AM
As you acknowledged, this is a game with dragons and magic and living constructst and instantaneous spacial movement (teleport)...

I think that including blunt arrows for the sake of game balance is a far cry from being unbelievable.

And we don't have very realistic physics here: I can immerse myself in lava without injury, and can leap off of a 6 story building without dying or even breaking a bone.

Haha, true. I'm usually the last one to use the 'this would never happen in the real world' argument. Its only because I have used 'blunt arrows' and they suck so it might affect my suspension of disbelief. Err, more than dragons and magic...

Gryphton
04-08-2009, 11:38 AM
MY old man is big into archery and goes to all those bow shoots around our state and such. They do make blunt tips (in the real world), believe these were in PnP as well. Just do a google search on Blunt arrows or Club arrows, they look like an outward flared cone or surface. They are mainly used for killing small game without damaging the pelt. It exists in real life, but must be too much of a stretch of the imagination with all this magic being flung around and all these dragons and such *rooleyes*

sephiroth1084
04-08-2009, 02:04 PM
Haha, true. I'm usually the last one to use the 'this would never happen in the real world' argument. Its only because I have used 'blunt arrows' and they suck so it might affect my suspension of disbelief. Err, more than dragons and magic...

I believe the ones in whichever PnP book they hail from had fluting and other aerodynamic features to improve their flight. Perhaps they had a shorter range increment as well (unimportant in DDO).

Rog
04-08-2009, 02:13 PM
I use a +5 transmuting bow on the pit fiend, the combat log says I'm doing slashing damage; at least till mod9...

lol go lighting 2 man sure its a grind for scales but think about it with house d sivler arrows lighting/holy damage bypass his dr with silver arrows you get holy/silver lighting damage ,lighting strike at 20 25% increase in base attack speed how are you nerfed? thats a fast kill my bard with a repeater gets better over damage than a barb with a min 2 except for crits. but then tag him with a lighting strike for 600 damage its about the same.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 02:17 PM
can leap off of a 6 story building without dying or even breaking a bone.

HAH, and don't even need magic for that!!! :D

barabel
04-08-2009, 02:19 PM
There is precedent in the 3.5 ruleset for what the OP is asking for in Races of the Wild.

excerpted from the table on p166

Arrow, blunt (Longbow) 1d8, Crit 20/x2, Range 50, Bludgeoning
Arrow, blunt (Shortbow) 1d6, Crit 20/x2, Range 40, Bludgeoning
Arrow, Serpentstongue (Longbow) 1d8, 20/x3, Range 100, Piercing and Slashing
Arrow, Serpentstongue (Shortbow) 1d6, 20/x3, Range 70, Piercing and Slashing

ducetrae
04-08-2009, 02:25 PM
while I dont like the change its not the same quality the transmuting is changing the material qualites as in the metal the weapon is composed of not the morphology as in shape the item is.

from the Magic Item Compendium:

TRANSMUTING
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 13th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) transmutation
Activation: —

This odd-looking weapon has both sharp and
blunt sections. Its pommel or grip is set with a
diamond, a piece of jet, a sapphire, and a ruby.
In addition, it is inlaid with both adamantine
and silver.

When you score a successful hit with a
transmuting weapon against a creature
that has damage reduction, that attack is
resolved normally. At the start of your next
turn, however, the weapon transforms,
taking on the properties required to overcome
that creature’s damage reduction.

Once so changed, the weapon overcomes
the designated type of damage reduction
for 10 rounds, or until you strike a creature
that has a different type of damage reduction.
In this case, the weapon transforms in
the same manner to overcome that damage
reduction instead. If the target has multiple
types of damage reduction, the weapon
overcomes all of them. If the creature gains
a new type of damage reduction after initially
being struck (from changing its form,
for example), the weapon must change again
before it can overcome the new type.

A transmuting weapon does not gain
any other benefit of the properties it takes
on, and it always deals normal damage.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, fabricate.
Cost to Create: Varies.

ducetrae
04-08-2009, 02:27 PM
now what do you have to say about that

moorewr
04-08-2009, 02:42 PM
Blunt arrows?

Umm, I know we're playing in a fantasy world with magic and dragons and everything but we generally use basic laws of physics.

The only way you could make arrows do bludgeoning as opposed to pierce damage is to widen the tip significantly. (Removing or blunting the arrow tip would not work as the arrow would still pierce the target)

If you widen the tip of the arrow you make it very unstable in flight, massively reducing its range.

Believe it or not I've actually used arrows with specially widened latex covered tips in Live Roleplaying. After about 20 feet you couldn't hit a barn door. That was only with a 25lb bow. I also found the flight was more stable the less power you put into it.

You should visit your local SCA fighter practice and see if they do any archery - a good archer can be nearly as accurate (at moderate range) with a Baldar blunt as they are with a normal arrow.

moorewr
04-08-2009, 02:43 PM
now what do you have to say about that

There's a neat looking yellow sticker on my ceiling tile.. looks like HVAC put it there last time they checked my VVA...

Talon_Moonshadow
04-08-2009, 02:48 PM
Darn, I guess I shoulda kept all those lumps of coal after all. :p

Actually, I aways thought transmuting was too powerful.
But my archers sure enjoyed it. And so did my rogues.

Can we have more backpack space please?! At least scroll cases. And maybe potion bags and wand cases. At tleast that way I'd have room for other weps to replace transmuting.

Devs. I'm ok with the nerfs....but we need some bennys too.
We need space to carry more weps.
We need a way to fight bad guys with a million HP. etc.

/sigh I just sold a returning throwing hammer last night too. :(

Edit: on the bright side, archers are one of the few who can bypass the Pit Fiend's(or DQ's) DR easily now. (Darn Pallies)

Noctus
04-08-2009, 02:51 PM
My +5 Shock longbow of pure good out damages my +1 transmuting longbow of Greater Evil Outsider Bane.

You should redo your math.

Cinwulf
04-08-2009, 03:05 PM
lol go lighting 2 man sure its a grind for scales but think about it with house d sivler arrows lighting/holy damage bypass his dr with silver arrows you get holy/silver lighting damage ,lighting strike at 20 25% increase in base attack speed how are you nerfed? thats a fast kill my bard with a repeater gets better over damage than a barb with a min 2 except for crits. but then tag him with a lighting strike for 600 damage its about the same.

I guess there's something I'm not understanding about the pit fiends DR, I thought my transmuting bow was doing slashing damage to bypass DR, how am I supposed to do slashing damage with a bow in MOD9? What am I missing here?

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 03:11 PM
I guess there's something I'm not understanding about the pit fiends DR, I thought my transmuting bow was doing slashing damage to bypass DR, how am I supposed to do slashing damage with a bow in MOD9? What am I missing here?

The pit fiend has
dr/good
dr/silver

You must meet both of these to bypass.

Your transmuter registers slashing cause of the damage que. It deals slash,pierce,blunt damage in that order, meaning if the mob has NO slash dr then it is slash, if it does then goes to the next, checks if it has dr/pierce, if yes then to the next again and uses blunt type.

Cinwulf
04-08-2009, 03:12 PM
The pit fiend has
dr/good
dr/silver

You must meet both of these to bypass.

Your transmuter registers slashing cause of the damage que. It deals slash,pierce,blunt damage in that order, meaning if the mob has NO slash dr then it is slash, if it does then goes to the next, checks if it has dr/pierce, if yes then to the next again and uses blunt type.

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Guess it won't be as bad as I thought :)

Emili
04-08-2009, 03:28 PM
Perhaps the devs overlooked this, or simply don't care, but the transmuting nerf hurts archers more than anyone else.
This statement is totally untrue... the fighter class is the one which the change to transmutting affects the most negatively.


Fighters, ironically one of the other hard pressed groups in mod 8 also gets nerfed. Their weapons are based on a specific weapon unlike any of the other classes. This means that if something is dr/slash, dr/pierced, or dr/bludgeon fighters invariably do less damage to it..


Exactly, Archers are not nearly as affected as a fighter by this change. A fighters to-hit and damage bonus' are for the weapon groups slash, pierce or bludgeon. A slashing spec'd fighter thus loses +3 to-hit and +6 damage by picking up a bludgeon weapon. Pally's still maintain sacred, barbarians rage... and the ranger archer still has his favored.

Kalari
04-08-2009, 04:01 PM
Im just hoping I wasnt stupid enough to sell my finessable light hammers, think I have them stored on mules so I'll just have to find more backpack space.

Gryphton
04-08-2009, 04:08 PM
This statement is totally untrue... the fighter class is the one which the change to transmutting affects the most negatively.




Exactly, Archers are not nearly as affected as a fighter by this change. A fighters to-hit and damage bonus' are for the weapon groups slash, pierce or bludgeon. A slashing spec'd fighter thus loses +3 to-hit and +6 damage by picking up a bludgeon weapon. Pally's still maintain sacred, barbarians rage... and the ranger archer still has his favored.



Guess ya forgot about the monks. If they are neutral might as well just delete or go spend the 48 larges on a pair of in essence +5 holy silver kamas and still not be able to use any of your special monk attacks while you are at it.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 04:25 PM
Guess ya forgot about the monks. If they are neutral might as well just delete or go spend the 48 larges on a pair of in essence +5 holy silver kamas and still not be able to use any of your special monk attacks while you are at it.

I could reach 20 umd on my lawful neutral pure monk with base starting cha, that's all we need. ;)

sephiroth1084
04-09-2009, 12:12 PM
This statement is totally untrue... the fighter class is the one which the change to transmutting affects the most negatively.




Exactly, Archers are not nearly as affected as a fighter by this change. A fighters to-hit and damage bonus' are for the weapon groups slash, pierce or bludgeon. A slashing spec'd fighter thus loses +3 to-hit and +6 damage by picking up a bludgeon weapon. Pally's still maintain sacred, barbarians rage... and the ranger archer still has his favored.



What hurts more. DR 10/- or losing Weapon Specialization (+ the rest of the tree)?

The DR does. The fighter can pick up the sub-optimal weapon while still making use of most of his feats and still performing in the way intended, while an archer cannot do this. An archer without melee feats is going to be much worse with a different weapon than a fighter will be using a non-specialized weapon.

And the difference gets worse as monster DR goes up (which it likely will).