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View Full Version : Delete Weapon Finesse as a Selectable Feat



Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:45 PM
If you're going to kill character builds, why not just go for the throat?

Korvek
04-06-2009, 09:46 PM
If you're going to kill character builds, why not just go for the throat?

Because WoP isn't required for Dex builds to be effective.

I honestly think you're overreacting, a lot.

stockwizard5
04-06-2009, 09:46 PM
No he's not. Finesse builds used to be weak - now they are dead.

Mike_Fun_Spot
04-06-2009, 09:47 PM
Or at least when one join's the party or lfm have a icon next to them so i can politely ask them to go make a new character lmao!

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:47 PM
Because WoP isn't required for Dex builds to be effective.

I honestly think you're overreacting, a lot.

What Stock said.

BigBadBarry
04-06-2009, 09:49 PM
Aspenor,

You seem pretty pyssed off right now about things having seen your posts today.

Your bugged by something mate...and I suggest you take a short break from the forums/game and take some time out to chill and cool down.

Humperdink
04-06-2009, 09:52 PM
Because WoP isn't required for Dex builds to be effective.

I honestly think you're overreacting, a lot.

I honestly think Aspenor is not overreacting. Dex base builds had two options to be effective in high end content- con damage or vorpals. Most things these days are warded from vorpals effectively nullifying them and now death by stat damage has been taken away. I guess dex builds should just all revert to archery now. Wheee.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 10:48 PM
Aspenor,

You seem pretty pyssed off right now about things having seen your posts today.

Your bugged by something mate...and I suggest you take a short break from the forums/game and take some time out to chill and cool down.

I'm bugged by the consistently poor decisions made by the "producers" of this game that obviously haven't got the first clue about truly balancing a game.

Zenako
04-06-2009, 10:48 PM
I am thinking that if they have actually implemented the auto crit on 0 effects properly, you will still see mobs dying extremely fast when using stat effects. I have a rogue who was using dual w/e attacks, and after a handful of swings most mobs were taking boatloads of damage and dying in a few seconds once 0 had been reached. Auto crits piles on the damage.

If killing something in 10 seconds vs 5 or 6 is a game breaker, sorry, I don't see it that way.

w/p was becoming THE way to take down ANY mobs in the game, and any time you end up with only one percieved viable solution in a game where options are supposed to be the norm, it is undesireable.

this opens up the opens for all the stat damagers to be viable, not just w/p. w/e and m/b are now more in play.

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 10:55 PM
I honestly think Aspenor is not overreacting. Dex base builds had two options to be effective in high end content- con damage or vorpals. Most things these days are warded from vorpals effectively nullifying them and now death by stat damage has been taken away. I guess dex builds should just all revert to archery now. Wheee.

hmmmmmmmmmmm I believe FE damage and sneak damage both beat the snot out of what either class could get by starting with 18 str and lvl up points. Thats what 10 str over a dex build of the same class? +5 main hand/+3 offhand??? compared to +16 damage both hands from ranger abilities or how many dice enhancements for rogue???

dex build isnt that far behind on damage, but gains AC/to hit/reflex. That still holds true. So you do 10% less damage. Big whoopie. The people that are really hurt are the multiclasses that solely relied on stat damage to kill b/c they exceled in other areas.

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 10:56 PM
I am thinking that if they have actually implemented the auto crit on 0 effects properly, you will still see mobs dying extremely fast when using stat effects. I have a rogue who was using dual w/e attacks, and after a handful of swings most mobs were taking boatloads of damage and dying in a few seconds once 0 had been reached. Auto crits piles on the damage.

If killing something in 10 seconds vs 5 or 6 is a game breaker, sorry, I don't see it that way.

w/p was becoming THE way to take down ANY mobs in the game, and any time you end up with only one percieved viable solution in a game where options are supposed to be the norm, it is undesireable.

this opens up the opens for all the stat damagers to be viable, not just w/p. w/e and m/b are now more in play.

This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.

All I have to say is that when a stat = 0, these monsters better be helpless. When I say helpless, I mean completely unable to move, attack, or perform any actions.

Zenako
04-06-2009, 11:01 PM
This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.

All I have to say is that when a stat = 0, these monsters better be helpless. When I say helpless, I mean completely unable to move, attack, or perform any actions.

Careful about calling upon the D&D ruleset. In it you will find that "puncturers" are a pale shadow of what they were and are in DDO. I really do not think it is a "knee-jerk" reaction, since the w/p dominance has been obvious since around Giant Hold to many and has become more common now that so many more w/p weapons have had an opportunity to drop from loot and become used in the game.

Not sure how this change "completely invalidates" the feat however.

Samadhi
04-06-2009, 11:03 PM
No he's not. Finesse builds used to be weak - now they are dead.

agreed

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 11:03 PM
Careful about calling upon the D&D ruleset. In it you will find that "puncturers" are a pale shadow of what they were and are in DDO. I really do not think it is a "knee-jerk" reaction, since the w/p dominance has been obvious since around Giant Hold to many and has become more common now that so many more w/p weapons have had an opportunity to drop from loot and become used in the game.

Not sure how this change "completely invalidates" the feat however.

As I stated in another thread, the Rapier of Puncturing is based on the DnD concept of 5-6 encounters PER DAY. DDO characters encounter from between 12 to 50 encounters per "day."

sirgog
04-06-2009, 11:03 PM
I think that WoP picks will now be pretty popular - Con damage them down to 0, then quadruple damage on every hit without needing to swap weapons.

studentx
04-06-2009, 11:11 PM
I honestly think Aspenor is not overreacting. Dex base builds had two options to be effective in high end content- con damage or vorpals. Most things these days are warded from vorpals effectively nullifying them and now death by stat damage has been taken away. I guess dex builds should just all revert to archery now. Wheee.

*shrug* You should be happy now I'll just make them hold still and my barb buddy can kill them. Good thing, since our wizzie is gonna be in the back bsing with the cleric waiting for buffs to drop because they won't be able to hold or halt. :cool:

First 10 levels and the last four levels are looking suspiciously similar. About a year to a year and a half ago that is all these forums cried for. Now it looks like they don't want it. :confused:

secondchance
04-06-2009, 11:14 PM
the game changes and I odn;t hink this change will ruin the game maybe it makes you upset ...me it doesn;t my duel wielding barb was built on str and I have pretty decent set of picks and I bet those wop raipers that are bound and attuned on him will still be usefull....overall I think changing wop is a good thing however I want to see 0 stat mob's con dex or str a lot less effective than they are in game now

Junts
04-06-2009, 11:19 PM
This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.

All I have to say is that when a stat = 0, these monsters better be helpless. When I say helpless, I mean completely unable to move, attack, or perform any actions.

I disagree here just a little bit man: I've got a friend with a dex-based rogue. Said rogue actually kills trash mobs faster by radiance+weak/punct (or radiance + anything dps) than he did by dual wopping them to death, so much so that he traded away his wops. Granted, that's with sneak attacks in there, but its hard to get less-str based than a dex-based drow pure rogue, either. Presuming they change the game at all to make it more dps friendly (which they've said they intend to do), and given that mobs will be both immobile and autocrit when out of con, my guess is that dex based toons are not going to be quite so badly off - really if it has 1500 hp left when its autocrit, and it will be losing all its con bonus, it wont be that much harder to kill it/dps it to death yourself, especially relative to what everyone else will be doing, and how much more damage they will be taking, since their mob is not immobile/stunned for a few seconds.

This change sucks, but only so long as mobs continue to have such massive stupid hp that the present m8/subt mobs do.

Timjc86
04-06-2009, 11:43 PM
Elementals just got much tougher to kill.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 11:49 PM
It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.
You really think they did it because of complaints by "jealous" players?

Puh-lease. :rolleyes:

Mhykke
04-06-2009, 11:50 PM
You really think they did it because of complaints by "jealous" players?

Puh-lease. :rolleyes:

Nerfing WoP weapons has been one of the more popular suggestions by players towards game changes.

I don't think it's too outrageous to think the devs may have considered the number of posts asking for a WoP change in their thought processes.

ahpook
04-06-2009, 11:52 PM
We need to see what this "stunned for a short period of time" means. It needs to be long enough to kill the mob in most circumstances.

For the most part, the WoP nerf merely makes W/E the superior alternative as at least that mitigates damage.

Strakeln
04-06-2009, 11:54 PM
I don't like the nerf.

But finesse builds are not dead. I have two that have always relied upon DPS as their preferred method of killing, they both work fantastically well and will likely continue to do so.

MrCow
04-07-2009, 12:04 AM
Elementals just got much tougher to kill.

While it is true that elementals are tougher to kill, it still remains true that due to them having high HD (2.5 HD per 1 CR is their usual standard) a plain wounding weapon will still do more damage via CON-based HP loss than a plain greater elemental bane weapon in the higher end part of the game.

Jay203
04-07-2009, 01:23 AM
Dreamspitter is the new WoP :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

Pwesiela
04-07-2009, 03:06 AM
Wounding and puncturing will now render the mob helpless (lets hope for real).

Wounding and puncturing still lower a mob's con score.

Low con score means low total hit points.

I'd still much rather kill one of those giants in SoS when he has 0 con and a fraction of his original hit points.

Wounding and puncturing are not dead.

FluffyCalico
04-07-2009, 03:09 AM
Wounding and puncturing are not dead.

Correct. W/p still does 90% as good as it used be to with 1 exception. W/p since it doesn't kill with con will put you very low on kill count. And as we know the "number cruncher I must be the best" group can't be low in the kill count so to them it is dead.

Gelandor
04-07-2009, 03:10 AM
Just makes me very glad that thus far I have kept my finesse character pure ranger, because she will probably turn into an archer at lvl 20...

bobbryan2
04-07-2009, 03:11 AM
/signed

No other change they've made has managed to stamp out those pesky dex builds... maybe if they remove the feat, it'll help.

Now... can we get back to the question of why I spent all my money on +5 transmuting khopeshes of decpetion for my rogue's pit fiend beaters...

Sad panda about that.

Raegoul
04-07-2009, 03:30 AM
I understand that people feel stuff out of proportion with what actually will happen. Seriously it is not that bad. And you may ask if i have Finesse based Toons and yes i have 2 and one is the best DPS toon i have cause she a little halfling rogue and the other is a IntimiACranger and i built her expecting that Wounding and Puncturing would be changed. I know she will never have the DPS that other toons will have and i have accepted that long ago.

Changes have been made in the past that have affected my toons and i enjoy figuring out how make my toon useful again. I have only ever rerolled once and that was because the 28point build fighter had too few hps.

I sincerely believe dex based toons will remain important in any group especially for their stat-damaging role and i am happy to see that they will no longer be the solo-masters of every group i have been in for the last year or so. I like groups that work together even though i forget where i have gone most of the time. I am an oblivious zerger, i do not know that i am doing it and when people remind me that i am going to fast i stop, well most of the time. Anyway the point was i think this will be better for people when they group together and the dex-based fighter will have to learn to depend on their group work together and FULFILL THEIR ROLE IN THE PARTY.

Looking forward to the changes :D

Lorien_the_First_One
04-07-2009, 09:16 AM
If you're going to kill character builds, why not just go for the throat?

Naw, my dex rogue is a pretty good DPS machine. I just wish I had added more con to her. Stupid mod4 build....

Lorien_the_First_One
04-07-2009, 09:19 AM
Low con score means low total hit points.

I'd still much rather kill one of those giants in SoS when he has 0 con and a fraction of his original hit points..

I actually wonder how they are handling this. How are those 10,000HP mobs given 10,000 HP? Does removing 10% of their con remove 10% of their HP? Or are they being generated by the standard 25D8 + 25HP/con bonus + 9000 HP type forumula and all you are removing with 2 points of con is 25 HP, leaving the 0con mob with 9000ish HP.

wamjratl1
04-07-2009, 09:30 AM
I actually wonder how they are handling this. How are those 10,000HP mobs given 10,000 HP? Does removing 10% of their con remove 10% of their HP? Or are they being generated by the standard 25D8 + 25HP/con bonus + 9000 HP type forumula and all you are removing with 2 points of con is 25 HP, leaving the 0con mob with 9000ish HP.

That was sort of my question too. Won't lowering their con still lower their HP to some sort of "base HP" that can't be gotten rid of by con damage? Depending on how this is implemented, we might still be fine. Stunned and auto-crits at 0 con should kill them pretty quick.

Hopefully, like Junts mentioned, Radiance and a WoE SS will probably still be pretty nasty (thanks to whoever put the SS on the AH for a song...:D)

Kadran
04-07-2009, 09:38 AM
OK. Someone is going to need to explain to me how they nerfed WoPs. And before anyone sends me a link, I already read all of the release notes top to bottom.

WoP currently = Mob dead

WoP Mod 9 = Mob unable to attack or cast spells, and is subject to auto critical hits.

How is this nerfed? It's still an amazing weapon. Instead of killing the mob, you make it useless. This is usually preferable to killing the mob, and in places that you have to kill the mobs you have 5-11 other party members. Even if you're by yourself, you get auto crits! Get a sparkstriker from Deleras :-P

To all who think WoP is nerfed, if you're on Ghallanda, shoot me a PM. I'll buy them off ya. ;-)

Aeneas
04-07-2009, 09:41 AM
reroll.

rimble
04-07-2009, 09:41 AM
This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.

Well, if you want to talk DnD, Weapon Finesse is traditionally just taken by Rogues. In their case, Strength damage doesn't matter compared to the many-d6 Sneak Attack they can get, and so just hitting is the priority. Other classes, particularly Monks, may have attempted a Weapon Finesse path, but I never saw it work out well.

Weapon Finesse got really perverted and overpowered in DDO with stat damaging weapons. I believe you're right that its value is greatly reduced, but it will still be desired by Rogues and other high-Dex high-AC types.

However, this is a pretty painful change to characters that were relying on stat damaging. I always thought that was a precarious thing to bank on, but I still sympathize with people getting hung out here.

Yaga_Nub
04-07-2009, 09:44 AM
Nerfing WoP weapons has been one of the more popular suggestions by players towards game changes.

I don't think it's too outrageous to think the devs may have considered the number of posts asking for a WoP change in their thought processes.

But that suggests that the devs have a thought process.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 09:46 AM
Weapon Finesse got really perverted and overpowered in DDO with stat damaging weapons.

Never thought I'd ever see *that* statement on the boards. :)


I believe you're right that its value is greatly reduced, but it will still be desired by Rogues and other high-Dex high-AC types.


Not a 100% sure that's true any more.

Yaga_Nub
04-07-2009, 09:46 AM
Well, if you want to talk DnD, Weapon Finesse is traditionally just taken by Rogues. In their case, Strength damage doesn't matter compared to the many-d6 Sneak Attack they can get, and so just hitting is the priority. Other classes, particularly Monks, may have attempted a Weapon Finesse path, but I never saw it work out well.

Weapon Finesse got really perverted and overpowered in DDO with stat damaging weapons. I believe you're right that its value is greatly reduced, but it will still be desired by Rogues and other high-Dex high-AC types.

However, this is a pretty painful change to characters that were relying on CON damaging. I always thought that was a precarious thing to bank on, but I still sympathize with people getting hung out here.

Fixed that for you. Str and Dex damage haven't changed. And those character couldn't really do **** against bosses but now they can stat damage the bosses and actually add something to the party for the end fights.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 09:53 AM
Fixed that for you. Str and Dex damage haven't changed. And those character couldn't really do **** against bosses but now they can stat damage the bosses and actually add something to the party for the end fights.

Off-topic, but I think the red-boss change is going to lead to some more interesting tactics...not exploits, and not game breaking, but adding "more ways to skin the cat" kinda stuff. Kinda depends on the details.

Kadran
04-07-2009, 10:07 AM
This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.

What? You knew when you rolled that character that a 6 STR Halfling dual wielding through the weapon finesse feat would do very low DPS. You relied on a weapon that was vastly overpowered to compensate for this fact as a work around. Now the devs have taken action and you no longer have the best AC and DPS. Are you serious? You think this was a "knee-jerk" decision... then you go on to call it a false assumption?

Take a step back and look at how good WoP is. Barbarians don't use 2 handed weapons. They dual wield pointy things because the DPS (through CON dmg) is SO much better. I don't want to turn this into a TWF vs THF, but don't try to tell me that WoP isn't overpowered.

As for the DnD ruleset, you do realize this is an MMO right? Look at a level 2 Barbarian in PnP. What weapon is he wielding? In the campaigns I've been in, it's NOTHING close to a +1 Flaming Greataxe, let alone Maelstrom. Look at how much money your beloved PnP character has at level 16. And to avoid the arguement of "We've been at cap so long," we'll go ahead and say look at a character that JUST made level 16. My cleric has 100k plat. That's pocket change to most of DDO. And that's after I bought wands, scrolls, pots, weapons, and armor.

Would you really find this game enjoyable if at level 3 you were still using a masterwork falchion (because that's what you found, and you cannot afford anything else?) How about if the Weapon Focus feat were weapon specific like it is in PnP? How about if at level 1, we don't get a free feat of Heroic Durability anymore? Your Drow sorc with a 12 Con has 5 HP. I don't see you griping about that anywhere. How about rest shrines? We should have to wait 8 hours resting like we do in PnP. And what's this nonsense about regenerating HP in town?! In PnP I have to PAY someone to heal me.

Back to the main point, I am very glad that WoP is being changed, and it's not being done in a way that makes them useless. They are still great weapons, and people will still want them. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same.

rimble
04-07-2009, 10:09 AM
Fixed that for you. Str and Dex damage haven't changed. And those character couldn't really do **** against bosses but now they can stat damage the bosses and actually add something to the party for the end fights.

An appropriate fix, thanks.

djinni69
04-07-2009, 10:10 AM
If you're going to kill character builds, why not just go for the throat?

I read your subject, and thought "Oh no!! Asp, you know betta!". LOL Good post man :)

TEK
04-07-2009, 10:31 AM
Now the devs have taken action and you no longer have the best AC and DPS.


considering that all other players are your teammates and not your enemies(exception to pvp of course) how do you propose that this is helping your biased cause?




Take a step back and look at how good WoP is. Barbarians don't use 2 handed weapons. They dual wield pointy things because the DPS (through CON dmg) is SO much better.

And now that its nerfed some other type of weapon will be better. By your ridiculous logic we should nerf that too right?




I don't want to turn this into a TWF vs THF, but don't try to tell me that WoP isn't overpowered.

well as long as we are barking orders, Don't try and tell me that WOP is overpowered.




As for the DnD ruleset, you do realize this is an MMO right? Look at a level 2 Barbarian in PnP. What weapon is he wielding? In the campaigns I've been in, it's NOTHING close to a +1 Flaming Greataxe, let alone Maelstrom.


Your campaigns are not identical to everyone elses, this isnt just about you. There is no ruleset in pnp that says a barbarian cant use a **** rapier or even a powerful weapon at a low level. In fact there is no "rules" in pnp period.



Would you really find this game enjoyable if at level 3 you were still using a masterwork falchion (because that's what you found, and you cannot afford anything else?) How about if the Weapon Focus feat were weapon specific like it is in PnP? How about if at level 1, we don't get a free feat of Heroic Durability anymore? Your Drow sorc with a 12 Con has 5 HP. I don't see you griping about that anywhere. How about rest shrines? We should have to wait 8 hours resting like we do in PnP. And what's this nonsense about regenerating HP in town?! In PnP I have to PAY someone to heal me.


at this point NO, the damage has been done, so why bring it up?




I'm sorry if you don't feel the same.

I highly doubt that to be true

Deuce
04-07-2009, 11:25 AM
Meh.

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 01:33 PM
If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

Hendrik
04-07-2009, 01:42 PM
If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

Doing rather well still since I did not build them around weapons/gear.

But meh, that's just me. To each his own.

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 01:50 PM
Doing rather well still since I did not build them around weapons/gear.

But meh, that's just me. To each his own.

No offense, but that's an illusion. you may think you're contributing, but you're not (at least not enough that you'd be better replaced by another character).

Zenako
04-07-2009, 01:51 PM
If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

Asp, it is coming across that in your world, there can only be one viable build at a time. That unless you are the only uber killing machine build, that anything else is obsolete, that your world is effectively binary in nature. Uber, or obsolete, nothing in between. Uber minus 1% is still less than uber and thus obsolete. Is that how you really view things? I hope not, but perhaps it is.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 01:52 PM
If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

Depends what you're saying here, Asp...is this based around the whole "auto-crit" effect that'll be the new way to deal with things like Mod 8 giants?

eonfreon
04-07-2009, 01:53 PM
And what's this nonsense about regenerating HP in town?! In PnP I have to PAY someone to heal me.
.

What nonsense is this?
So you played with some weird rule about not being able to regenerate hit points while in a safe environment.
As for shrines they represent our characters "resting".
You were allowed to build a campfire for the night and bnd your wounds, right?
Wizards and Clerics had their spells reset the next day, right?
The problem with arguing about PnP rules is that, other than tournaments, it's a pretty good bet that just about every DM and group played a little bit different.
I started playing with the Old Basic D&D set when I was about 9 years old.
My buddy had bought it and got me to play.
We had a blast and completely misinterpreted everything.
Over the years, playing AD&D at the times I had various new rules added from Dragon Mags, modified by me and my players to fit into our sense of Balance, and many rules which I threw out for the sake of enjoying ourselves.

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 01:53 PM
Asp, it is coming across that in your world, there can only be one viable build at a time. That unless you are the only uber killing machine build, that anything else is obsolete, that your world is effectively binary in nature. Uber, or obsolete, nothing in between. Uber minus 1% is still less than uber and thus obsolete. Is that how you really view things? I hope not, but perhaps it is.

When a character would be more useful to the party being another type of character, yes, they are obsolete.

Unknownperson
04-07-2009, 01:54 PM
If you do not break DR, your weapon will do very little if any damage

Dex based builds do not have the strength to break DR in current end game content.

Get rid of puncturing and dex based builds have very few options to kill mobs.

I noticed on my first Dex based rogue that I was having a very hard time against red named doing any type of damage. I decided to rebuild her as a strength based rogue. Basically they are identical expect one is dex based and one is strength based. In current content my strength based rogue well out damages my dex based rogue by far. In future content, there will be no need for my dex based rogue because she will not even be able to kill trash. (One side note: don’t be surprised if my strength based rogue has a hard time getting that trap box on the other side of the trap)

This was my argument a long time ago, when I first heard that W/P was going to be “fixed”. Rather then complaining about it, I built my strength based rogue, so this does not affect me as much. With that said, Asp is very correct, this “fix” will make most dex based characters obsolete in end game.

lignum
04-07-2009, 02:07 PM
*inserts 2 copper pieces*

I would just like to say: It seems as though the oblivious community(myself included), would have appreciatted a developmental, "headsup!", months ago. But, who are we to expect such courteousy, paying customers?

Good luck rallying the votes, with so many crushed hearts....

Ironforge_Clan
04-07-2009, 02:13 PM
I'm bugged by the consistently poor decisions made by the "producers" of this game that obviously haven't got the first clue about truly balancing a game.

No you want them to balance this game how you see fit not how they see fit. BTW if you see dex based finesse builds as now being dead you should have rerolled yours long ago. Mine is still kicking a$$.

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 02:19 PM
If you do not break DR, your weapon will do very little if any damage

Dex based builds do not have the strength to break DR in current end game content.

Get rid of puncturing and dex based builds have very few options to kill mobs.

I noticed on my first Dex based rogue that I was having a very hard time against red named doing any type of damage. I decided to rebuild her as a strength based rogue. Basically they are identical expect one is dex based and one is strength based. In current content my strength based rogue well out damages my dex based rogue by far. In future content, there will be no need for my dex based rogue because she will not even be able to kill trash. (One side note: don’t be surprised if my strength based rogue has a hard time getting that trap box on the other side of the trap)


Umm...

A 16 rogue gets 8d6 + 15 or so sneak attack damage... that's 43 average damage

Then you have a +5 weapon, maybe holy... there's another 12 average damage

Greensteel rapier is 1d8, right? so there's another 4.5

Your strength rogue has what? 12 higher STR than a dex-based?

So the dex-based rogue does 60 points of damage, while the STR based does 66 points of damage...

Yeah, 10% difference.. Not seeing how you "out damage by far" with STR-based...

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 02:23 PM
If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

You're really not as uber as you think you are.

Yes, a high-dex character gives up SOME DPS (like 10%-15%)... but gains something else...

You're really clueless if you think 10%-15% equals "completely obsolete and gimped to hell", especially since one gains benefits that somewhat offset that loss.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 02:23 PM
Asp, it is coming across that in your world, there can only be one viable build at a time. That unless you are the only uber killing machine build, that anything else is obsolete, that your world is effectively binary in nature. Uber, or obsolete, nothing in between. Uber minus 1% is still less than uber and thus obsolete. Is that how you really view things? I hope not, but perhaps it is.
That deserves a QFT and a LMAO, especially "Uber minus 1% is still less than uber and thus obsolete."

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 02:27 PM
When a character would be more useful to the party being another type of character, yes, they are obsolete.

You're wrong, and you need to quit playing this game...

Your logic is completely skewed by your anger issues... It's just a game... no one has kidnapped your child.

Different quests require different skills... A build may not shine in a particular quest... so it's obsolete and completely gimped even though it may do well in other quests?

Or are you just speaking of absolute best min/max DPS?? Is that the only thing that counts in your small limited world?

Unknownperson
04-07-2009, 02:29 PM
Except the problem is if you do not break DR, you do no damage. Therein lies the big problem.


Umm...

A 16 rogue gets 8d6 + 15 or so sneak attack damage... that's 43 average damage

Then you have a +5 weapon, maybe holy... there's another 12 average damage

Greensteel rapier is 1d8, right? so there's another 4.5

Your strength rogue has what? 12 higher STR than a dex-based?

So the dex-based rogue does 60 points of damage, while the STR based does 66 points of damage...

Yeah, 10% difference.. Not seeing how you "out damage by far" with STR-based...

Geonis
04-07-2009, 02:29 PM
If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

My 2 finesse based characters each have their own method of getting decent DPS. One is a Rogue and gets plenty of extra damage from Sneak Attack, the other is a Pally, who with Power Attack, plus Divine Favor, plus Divine Might, plus Holy Sword spell, plus Smite Evil, plus Divine Sacrifice contributes plenty.

If you didn't think of a way to DPS in addition to stat damage, sounds like you were a burden on the party come any boss fight (read "every quest").

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 02:30 PM
Asp, it is coming across that in your world, there can only be one viable build at a time. That unless you are the only uber killing machine build, that anything else is obsolete, that your world is effectively binary in nature. Uber, or obsolete, nothing in between. Uber minus 1% is still less than uber and thus obsolete. Is that how you really view things? I hope not, but perhaps it is.


When a character would be more useful to the party being another type of character, yes, they are obsolete.


That deserves a QFT and a LMAO, especially "Uber minus 1% is still less than uber and thus obsolete."

I'm actually agreeing with Bran here... Asp, you're making zero sense.

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 02:32 PM
Except the problem is if you do not break DR, you do no damage. Therein lies the big problem.

Most DR is bypassable with the right weapons... All raid bosses are bypassable with the right weapons, which is where DPS really matters...

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 02:33 PM
Umm...

A 16 rogue gets 8d6 + 15 or so sneak attack damage... that's 43 average damage

Then you have a +5 weapon, maybe holy... there's another 12 average damage

Greensteel rapier is 1d8, right? so there's another 4.5

Your strength rogue has what? 12 higher STR than a dex-based?

So the dex-based rogue does 60 points of damage, while the STR based does 66 points of damage...

Yeah, 10% difference.. Not seeing how you "out damage by far" with STR-based...


Kinda depends on what the strats become...if it's becomes "stat damage, then auto-crit" with mob hps along the lines of Mod 8 giants, the str based guy is going to switch to either bursting kopeshes or heavy picks. I don't feel like doing the math right now. :)

Unless you can get enough AC to matter, going finesse saves a rogue points for other things. Devil will be in the details, but my personal opinion is the str vs finesse rogue debate is over with Mod 9.

Edit: with, of course, the caveat that we've not actually *seen* mod 9 yet. X-D


http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/theluckyjosh/mod%209/mod9_llama.jpg?t=1239132933

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 02:36 PM
Devil will be in the details, but my personal opinion is the str vs finesse rogue debate is over with Mod 9.

Heh, so what's the answer? I'm not sure what you're saying here... You saying that STR rogue always outweighs the DEX rogue? (You already put one caveat in, saying that unless you can get your AC way up - so there's at least one way a DEX rogue is still not "completely obsolete and obviously gimped")

Unknownperson
04-07-2009, 02:38 PM
That is true, so with a lot of investment, you can make the dex based character work.


Most DR is bypassable with the right weapons... All raid bosses are bypassable with the right weapons, which is where DPS really matters...

Aeneas
04-07-2009, 02:40 PM
A dex based rogue has a reflex save advantage over the str based one. Str based rogues often have a hard time breaking 30 reflex - which is gimp, particularly for a rogue.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 02:48 PM
Heh, so what's the answer? I'm not sure what you're saying here... You saying that STR rogue always outweighs the DEX rogue? (You already put one caveat in, saying that unless you can get your AC way up - so there's at least one way a DEX rogue is still not "completely obsolete and obviously gimped")

I don't believe that "not best spec" = "t3h gimpz". Just saying up until this particular change (as far as I can tell), the debate between which was "best spec" was up in the air.

I play a finesse rogue as my sole character, and I'll find a way to adapt...have for 8 previous mods, what's one more? :D

Points in Cha + FoP is one that will stay pretty solid, I'm thinking. High Cha for UMD takes an indirect nerf because max ranks goes up to 23, making Heal and GH scrolls within relatively easy reach of folks who used Cha as a dump stat. Who knows? Maybe there will be useful scrolls requiring a high UMD in Mod 9 and onward.

More and more uses for skills will keep Int high a good option.

I see where Asp is coming from; he's not exactly just making this stuff up.

However, we won't really know until they get the mod up and running, and even then there will be mod 10 changing things, mod 11, mod 12, etc etc etc.

Junts
04-07-2009, 02:51 PM
I don't believe that "not best spec" = "t3h gimpz". Just saying up until this particular change (as far as I can tell), the debate between which was "best spec" was up in the air.

I play a finesse rogue as my sole character, and I'll find a way to adapt...have for 8 previous mods, what's one more? :D

Points in Cha + FoP is one that will stay pretty solid, I'm thinking. High Cha for UMD takes an indirect nerf because max ranks goes up to 23, making Heal and GH scrolls within relatively easy reach of folks who used Cha as a dump stat. Who knows? Maybe there will be useful scrolls requiring a high UMD in Mod 9 and onward.

More and more uses for skills will keep Int high a good option.

I see where Asp is coming from; he's not exactly just making this stuff up.

However, we won't really know until they get the mod up and running, and even then there will be mod 10 changing things, mod 11, mod 12, etc etc etc.


ddo's new most important benchmark: 44 umd, for the ability to usefully ressurrect people.

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 03:00 PM
Mark my words, there will be a lot more "characters with weapon finesse need not apply" LFMs in the future.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Mark my words, there will be a lot more "characters with weapon finesse need not apply" LFMs in the future.

Repeat of "Invaders!" when it was release. :D

Edit: Agreed. Nothing we haven't overcome in the past, though I can understand your negative feelings at the change.

kudesnik
04-07-2009, 03:40 PM
My Monk is dex based build. Usually I am not using stat dmg weapons, I have no issues finding group. Raid or not. I'd say don't panic !
I use dex dmg handwraps for example - it never kills mob, but renders it where I can do crit. on every hit. Works for me.

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 03:45 PM
Mark my words, there will be a lot more "characters with weapon finesse need not apply" LFMs in the future.

Only from people who can't stand to finish a quest in 17 minutes when it's possible to finish it in 15...

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 03:48 PM
Only from freaks like you who can't stand to finish a quest in 17 minutes when it's possible to finish it in 15...

I really really don't understand the uber-elite mentality. It's almost psychotic..

Wrong, but it doesn't surprise me that you believe that. lately you've been assigning me motivations I don't have. You might want to remove the personal insult from your post.

Gratch
04-07-2009, 03:52 PM
Weapon Finesse is still fine on kama GTWF monks.

They are not a dps class, but 70's+++ ac, gtwf vorpal kamas (now >wops), fists of light, abundant step make a pretty useful surviving support class that use this feat. Obviously they'd be better if the stance capabilities scaled moreso with level (in usefulness and magnitude).

Though monks (with more than 2 monk levels) have become the "maximum of 2 gimps allowed in this raid and we already have one monk" punchline.

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 03:55 PM
You're the one that says that dex-based are "completely obsolete and utterly gimp" (Something like that)...

You also say that one should always bring along a character who can do more, that someone with 1% less DPS should also be considered obsolete...

I've never seen you so negative before, so maybe I should give you a benefit of the doubt and ease up on my attacks, but so far... every thread you've commented in or started, you've gone WAY overboard...

These changes are big, but not that big...

Like someone else said... We'll be back to killing fast, and beating quests in no time. Do you not believe that? Do you really believe that we're all just screwed?

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 04:03 PM
You're the one that says that dex-based are "completely obsolete and utterly gimp" (Something like that)...

You also say that one should always bring along a character who can do more, that someone with 1% less DPS should also be considered obsolete...

I've never seen you so negative before, so maybe I should give you a benefit of the doubt and ease up on my attacks, but so far... every thread you've commented in or started, you've gone WAY overboard...

These changes are big, but not that big...

Like someone else said... We'll be back to killing fast, and beating quests in no time. Do you not believe that? Do you really believe that we're all just screwed?

No, not at all. I agree with several of your points, and yeah I am being negative. I am ****ed off to the 10th degree. I have personal reasons for this that I can't even talk about on the forums due to Turbine's forum guidelines. Yeah, I am going overboard, but when I get angry that's how I roll. Sure, we'll be smashing quests fine. I'm not overtly concerned about MY characters' performance. I am angry about the spirit of these nerfs and the flat out LIES that were fed to me. I am angry about Turbine covering up their inability to make challenging content with nerfs. I am angry about the blatant exploitation of knowledge by mournlands players. I'm not worried about being ineffective, I'm angry that Turbine is essentially pigeon-holing characters into a DPS or Re-roll game mechanic.

I am a power-gamer. I know this. I understand not every person cares about having their characters be better than 99% of the others out there. I do. That's my personal preference, and that's how I play this game. The OP was a sarcastic tongue-in-cheek post, meant to provoke thought. Sure, it is flame bait, but often people don't think beyond their simplistic point of view until you shock them into it.

I'm rerolling one character, and it's not even because of Mod 9, he was doomed for reroll anyhow. I'm just exceedingly upset with Turbine tinkering with game mechanics on what seems to be a whim because they can't create challenging content.

Timjc86
04-07-2009, 04:11 PM
No, not at all. I agree with several of your points, and yeah I am being negative. I am ****ed off to the 10th degree.

... [snip]...

I'm rerolling one character, and it's not even because of Mod 9, he was doomed for reroll anyhow. I'm just exceedingly upset with Turbine tinkering with game mechanics on what seems to be a whim because they can't create challenging content.

Whoa. How very... honest of you. I suddenly feel much more sympathetic.

I thought all your posts were of the "sky is falling" kind, but now I think I see where you're coming from, and it makes sense.

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 04:15 PM
No, not at all. I agree with several of your points, and yeah I am being negative. I am ****ed off to the 10th degree. I have personal reasons for this that I can't even talk about on the forums due to Turbine's forum guidelines. Yeah, I am going overboard, but when I get angry that's how I roll. Sure, we'll be smashing quests fine. I'm not overtly concerned about MY characters' performance. I am angry about the spirit of these nerfs and the flat out LIES that were fed to me. I am angry about Turbine covering up their inability to make challenging content with nerfs. I am angry about the blatant exploitation of knowledge by mournlands players. I'm not worried about being ineffective, I'm angry that Turbine is essentially pigeon-holing characters into a DPS or Re-roll game mechanic.

I am a power-gamer. I know this. I understand not every person cares about having their characters be better than 99% of the others out there. I do. That's my personal preference, and that's how I play this game. The OP was a sarcastic tongue-in-cheek post, meant to provoke thought. Sure, it is flame bait, but often people don't think beyond their simplistic point of view until you shock them into it.

I'm rerolling one character, and it's not even because of Mod 9, he was doomed for reroll anyhow. I'm just exceedingly upset with Turbine tinkering with game mechanics on what seems to be a whim because they can't create challenging content.

Good post... I definitely agree with you about the Mournlands players... Any of them who sold a w/p weapon in the last 3 months should be banned.

Thrudh
04-07-2009, 04:16 PM
Wrong, but it doesn't surprise me that you believe that. lately you've been assigning me motivations I don't have. You might want to remove the personal insult from your post.

Done... my apologies.

moorewr
04-07-2009, 04:25 PM
I think that WoP picks will now be pretty popular - Con damage them down to 0, then quadruple damage on every hit without needing to swap weapons.

I'll agree with this - if you have improved crit piercing or a keen puncturing pick, you'll still tear things up.


As I stated in another thread, the Rapier of Puncturing is based on the DnD concept of 5-6 encounters PER DAY. DDO characters encounter from between 12 to 50 encounters per "day."

I advocate "regenerating" charges for puncturing and enfeebling weapons to square this circle - a la smite evil. Each crit expends a charge (maybe have a max of three?) then have one charge regenerate every 60 seconds.

*the above would go along with death at 0 CON, of course.

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 05:09 PM
I'll agree with this - if you have improved crit piercing or a keen puncturing pick, you'll still tear things up.



I advocate "regenerating" charges for puncturing and enfeebling weapons to square this circle - a la smite evil. Each crit expends a charge (maybe have a max of three?) then have one charge regenerate every 60 seconds.

*the above would go along with death at 0 CON, of course.

Regeneration isn't a bad idea. It'd have to follow the pnp rules of a touch attack though, as that's how it's supposed to be implemented. you touch with the rapier (not attack, not crit, touch) and do 1d6 con damage.

Hokiewa
04-07-2009, 05:13 PM
Aspenor,

Get over yourself. I've played with you for 3 years now. Your not that good, and especially not in the top 1%. Pathetic

Perhaps some therapy for you.

RangerMaya
04-07-2009, 05:13 PM
All I have to say is that when a stat = 0, these monsters better be helpless. When I say helpless, I mean completely unable to move, attack, or perform any actions.

Agreed, especially since if my str goes to 0 I can't even drink a dang pot to cure it!

moorewr
04-07-2009, 05:16 PM
Regeneration isn't a bad idea. It'd have to follow the pnp rules of a touch attack though, as that's how it's supposed to be implemented. you touch with the rapier (not attack, not crit, touch) and do 1d6 con damage.

Hmm, no problem with that.. of course, how often do we miss?

BlackSteel
04-07-2009, 06:36 PM
retracted

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 07:08 PM
Mark my words, there will be a lot more "characters with weapon finesse need not apply" LFMs in the future.
And how is that going to be verified: "Is that a mithral breastplate you're wearing? Is that a rapier in your right hand? And a light pick in your left? You must be a ... finesse build!"

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 07:10 PM
And how is that going to be verified: "Is that a mithral breastplate you're wearing? Is that a rapier in your right hand? And a light pick in your left? You must be a ... finesse build!"

Hi, Bran! :)

GrayOldDruid
04-07-2009, 07:17 PM
This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.

All I have to say is that when a stat = 0, these monsters better be helpless. When I say helpless, I mean completely unable to move, attack, or perform any actions.

I'm sorry, but if One change to One weapon effect (wounding) invalidates your character - you suck.

I have at least two finesse builds and neither one use much stat-damage and neither one is ineffective at all.

I do agree that they had better be helpless and immobile - very unlike how paralyzed mobs are paralyzed (and still move around like chess pieces).

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 07:18 PM
you suck.


I do agree

...?

Raithe
04-07-2009, 07:39 PM
This change is not going to have any effect on invalidating finesse builds. Most finesse builds are either rangers or rogues, if they are pure melee.

1) Rogues have sneak attack. If a mob is crit immune, it is often stat damage immune.
2) Rangers have Ram's Might, Favored Enemy, GTWF, Manyshot, and are just flat out overpowered. I'm not particularly worried about them.

Bards might be finesse-based, but their +8 damage songs (the devs are helping pigeonhole all bards into the warchanter PrE) are going to be more valuable than ever.

I think this change doesn't do enough, and is otherwise a bad move all around. I don't think the subject of this thread is a battle that should be fought, however.

Freeman
04-07-2009, 07:51 PM
I've had a Dex-based Halfling rogue since the day the game first began, with no rerolls. This change isn't going to change that, since he never depended on any particular weapon to be an effective character. Thanks to a +3 Str tome, he's up to a 13 base Strength now, which means only a 19 with an item, compared to a Dex around 32. I've managed to get along fine, even without wounding weapons, let alone WOPs, for a long time. A dex-based build won't be able to do the same damage as a strength-based one if all other factors are equal. However, I was fully aware of that limitation at the time I created the character, and this doesn't affect that in the slightest. The only thing this will change is that the person with the WOP might not get the kill as often as they used to. The mobs will still die nearly as fast, but other stat damage might actually be considered useful as well. My rogue tended to use W/E more often anyway, since it was usually much more effective when combined with Crippling Strike.

In short, I really don't care that they changed Con damage. I wouldn't have cared if they hadn't changed it. My character doesn't depend on any particular piece of equipment to make him effective. There are too many things that can change that, from changes like this, new content(Super weapons back when the cap was 10 or 12 are junk now), new equipment, feats, enhancements, etc.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 09:25 PM
This change is not going to have any effect on invalidating finesse builds. Most finesse builds are either rangers or rogues, if they are pure melee.

1) Rogues have sneak attack. If a mob is crit immune, it is often stat damage immune.
2) Rangers have Ram's Might, Favored Enemy, GTWF, Manyshot, and are just flat out overpowered. I'm not particularly worried about them.

Bards might be finesse-based, but their +8 damage songs (the devs are helping pigeonhole all bards into the warchanter PrE) are going to be more valuable than ever.

I think this change doesn't do enough, and is otherwise a bad move all around. I don't think the subject of this thread is a battle that should be fought, however.

Depends on what you mean by "invalidating". Dex rogues have to go S&B to get a meaningful AC for endgame (...and now I get a host of Monk splashed rogues telling me I'm wrong, of course....followed by all the UMD rogues...). If mob HPs stay high in relation to stats, best spec (note: "not best spec" != "t3h gimz!") rogue becomes Str based, barring other mod 9 effects. This is a new thing in Mod 9.

Consider monks, a class that is widely seen as sub-optimal for DPS purely based on their weapon selections...why? Their weapon selections are all low crit range, low crit multiplier. Set up a situation in which the ideal is "bring it to zero and crit it to death" and the "best spec" becomes str-based characters w/ high multiplier weapons. Really, the weapons in DDO need a tweak from PnP to flatten the curve a little....or maybe the dex required for ITWF and GTWF needs to move up a hair.

Asp (whether you luz his strident tone or no) has a point.

I'd rather have stat damage go away entirely, personally, than see this change. ;)

But...the jury's out on whether it's good for the game or not. We'll see. :D

Looking at Mod 8...Kobold and Monestary...if that model is followed for the majority of quests, no issue. The difference will be minor. Prey? Big diff, I'm thinking.

No Llamas for you!!!

Note: Apologies for the short response...just got done crafting my first Min II, to replace my 2 Transmuters of Deception (obsoleted in Mod 9 for being OP) and my 2 Transmuters of Righteousness (likewise obsoleted in Mod 9 for being OP). ;)

Aspenor
04-07-2009, 09:28 PM
I'm sorry, but if One change to One weapon effect (wounding) invalidates your character - you suck.

I have at least two finesse builds and neither one use much stat-damage and neither one is ineffective at all.

I do agree that they had better be helpless and immobile - very unlike how paralyzed mobs are paralyzed (and still move around like chess pieces).

I'll say it YET AGAIN, since people choose to respond to posts without reading the whole thread.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.

I'll say it AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.

Take your trolling somewhere else, and practice hard before you try it again.

Dexxaan
04-07-2009, 09:30 PM
Way too dramatic a thread.... and I'm surprised you started it Asp.

Khyber spilling over into Mod 9 scene is it?

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 11:24 PM
THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.

I'll say it AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.
We know that's baloney because you don't care about anyone else's characters.

GrayOldDruid
04-08-2009, 06:27 AM
...?

There was a big IF at the beginning of the first statement.... and the second statement had nothing to do with builds.

Unlike some, I can disagree with one statement and not think the person is a total loon.

GrayOldDruid
04-08-2009, 06:36 AM
I'll say it YET AGAIN, since people choose to respond to posts without reading the whole thread.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.

I'll say it AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.

Take your trolling somewhere else, and practice hard before you try it again.


Delete Weapon Finesse as a Selectable Feat
If you're going to kill character builds, why not just go for the throat?

My statement was in reference to your original post, not specifically to YOUR characters. Perhaps you should make better initial posts, or not take general responses to general statements personally.

If a small change to one weapon effect will "kill character builds" then I propose that those character builds sucked in the first place.

I do read the entire thread, but I will respond to posts as I come to them - if I feel the desire to do so. Also, if you start a Baby-Mamma-Drama thread like your original post then expect equally dramatic responses.

And one last note... responding to Trolls only encourages them. (not that I am one)

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 06:52 AM
My statement was in reference to your original post, not specifically to YOUR characters. Perhaps you should make better initial posts, or not take general responses to general statements personally.

If a small change to one weapon effect will "kill character builds" then I propose that those character builds sucked in the first place.

I do read the entire thread, but I will respond to posts as I come to them - if I feel the desire to do so. Also, if you start a Baby-Mamma-Drama thread like your original post then expect equally dramatic responses.

And one last note... responding to Trolls only encourages them. (not that I am one)

Your proposition is false, and you might want to re-think what you are contributing on any of your builds that do use weapon finesse. You'll be surprised to realize it's little to nothing, despite any desire you might have to ignore this fact.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 06:53 AM
Way too dramatic a thread.... and I'm surprised you started it Asp.

Khyber spilling over into Mod 9 scene is it?

I get provocative when angry.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 06:56 AM
Strange, my finesse build was always more effective via dps than those pesky wops and vorps :rolleyes:

Judo
04-08-2009, 07:13 AM
my dex based twf ranger loved her wop combo, was awesome, but you know whats even cooler? dual wielding elemental specific rapiers of every color, and never missing

sure, ill miss them, but i promise you ill keep playing, and ill still kick ass :)

Accelerando
04-08-2009, 08:31 AM
This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.




If you can't be bothered to switch weapon sets to something DPS worthy after you have the mob on autocrit then you are playing the wrong game for 3 years.

WoP nerf has been coming for a LONG time. Should have seen the writing on the wall.

Fenrisulven6
04-08-2009, 08:32 AM
Hey can I get another color besides blue?

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 08:36 AM
Shut up already. I have never seen someone act like such a baby on these forums.

If you can't be bothered to switch weapon sets to something DPS worthy after you have the mob on autocrit then you are playing the wrong game for 3 years.

WoP nerf has been coming for a LONG time. If you didn't see the writing on the wall you were one blind ************.

Cache the Aspenor Slayer has Spoken!

And I've never seen someone so incredibly BLIND to what I'm saying. I know you don't like me. I could care less about that. I also could care less about what you think was written on the wall, or what you think has been coming for a long time.

I'm not whining, I'm not acting like a baby (nice insult, that tends to be the tactic of people that don't have the higher brain functions to actually debate a topic). I'm upset about decisions made and lack of insight. I'll take your posts seriously when you learn to actually stay on topic and not insult people. Until then, you have been dismissed.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 08:42 AM
I'm not whining, I'm not acting like a baby (nice insult, that tends to be the tactic of people that don't have the higher brain functions to actually debate a topic). I'm upset about decisions made and lack of insight. I'll take your posts seriously when you learn to actually stay on topic and not insult people. Until then, you have been dismissed.

Sorry Asp but you are whining and acting childish standing there on your soap box. You been throwing up multiple post complaining about all the changes that are coming with Mod 9.

Honestly are some of the changes poor decisions? Probably but are they going to break the game? No, not how I see it. I understand you may see it differently. I say play the new Mod first and then rationally post what is not working.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 08:45 AM
Sorry Asp but you are whining and acting childish standing there on your soap box. You been throwing up multiple post complaining about all the changes that are coming with Mod 9.

Honestly are some of the changes poor decisions? Probably but are they going to break the game? No, not how I see it. I understand you may see it differently. I say play the new Mod first and then rationally post what is not working.
Whining or acting childish implies tone that does not exist in my posts. This is serious criticism, not "wah wah wah," despite what you may or may not believe. Numerous poor decisions led to where we are today, and just because I am actually taking a stand about it doesn't mean I'm whining.

Don't be sorry. I'm not.

krud
04-08-2009, 09:08 AM
.... Dex base builds had two options to be effective in high end content- con damage or vorpals. ....

That right there should tell you there was a problem. Only 2 specific weapons in game that made a finesse build effective? Builds that sucked unless they had one or 2 uber weapons? Now that's gimp!

This opens up more options, w/e, m/b all become equally effective, if not moreso. Many mobs probably have other stats lower than con, which should make them autocrit much faster. Think about how fast it takes you to kill a mob that has been stoned. Or a beholder once it's been reduced to 0 str. Pretty darn fast. There will still be plenty of usefulness for these weapons.

Maybe as a small bone they could remove the "must bypass DR in order to deal stat damage" rule that was put into effect a while ago.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 09:10 AM
That right there should tell you there was a problem. Only 2 specific weapons in game that made a finesse build effective? Builds that sucked unless they had one or 2 uber weapons? Now that's gimp!

This opens up more options, w/e, m/b all become equally effective, if not moreso. Many mobs probably have other stats lower than con, which should make them autocrit much faster. Think about how fast it takes you to kill a mob that has been stoned. Or a beholder once it's been reduced to 0 str. Pretty darn fast. There will still be plenty of usefulness for these weapons.

Maybe as a small bone they could remove the "must bypass DR in order to deal stat damage" rule that was put into effect a while ago.

Alternatively, they could have actually fixed these other weapons to work they way they should:
0 str = unconscious
0 dex = paralyzed

And actually fix monsters to be a challenge instead of just sacks of hit points.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 09:11 AM
Whining or acting childish implies tone that does not exist in my posts. This is serious criticism, not "wah wah wah," despite what you may or may not believe. Numerous poor decisions led to where we are today, and just because I am actually taking a stand about it doesn't mean I'm whining.

Don't be sorry. I'm not.

Am I sorry not really but I'm trying to be polite and keep this as far away from a personal attack as possible. There is a "tone" in all your posts that makes you come across as a complete spoiled four year old who just was told no by his mother when he didn't get that shiny little toy.

I can't take you serious and quite honestly never will. Its a **** game in which the players have no control over what the developers do. Get over it and yourself.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 09:13 AM
It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name.

Let me get this straight. You're complaining because DDO has derailed further away from DnD, and your proposal to solve this problem - by deleting finesse - is to.. break yet another pnp rule?? Oh the irony. ^^

TEK
04-08-2009, 09:16 AM
There is a "tone" in all your posts that makes you come across as a complete spoiled four year old who just was told no by his mother when he didn't get that shiny little toy.

HAHAHA

there is no such thing as "tone" in text. if there was we wouldnt need to use things such as, "lol" to TELL people we are joking or laughing.

YOU just simply CHOSE not to believe what he said and instead believe what YOU think he meant based on the experiences YOU had with people that YOU knew or met.

TEK
04-08-2009, 09:18 AM
Let me get this straight. You're complaining because DDO has derailed further away from DnD, and your proposal to solve this problem - by deleting finesse - is to.. break yet another pnp rule?? Oh the irony. ^^

yes. angry people do this at least 90% of the time. why does this seem to shock you?

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 09:18 AM
Let me get this straight. You're complaining because DDO has derailed further away from DnD, and your proposal to solve this problem - by deleting finesse - is to.. break yet another pnp rule?? Oh the irony. ^^

The OP was sarcastic and tongue in cheek. I know full well they'd never do this, and that the suggestion was absurd. It was in no way serious, never was.

If you had read the rest of the thread you'd understand this.

You've just proven my point, you can't read into tone or implied meaning.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 09:21 AM
HAHAHA

there is no such thing as "tone" in text. if there was we wouldnt need to use things such as, "lol" to TELL people we are joking or laughing.

YOU just simply CHOSE not to believe what he said and instead believe what YOU think he meant based on the experiences YOU had with people that YOU knew or met.

Please note that I put the word tone in quotes since I completely understand that there can be no such thing as a tone in a written document. Tone or feelings can only be implied by the reader. Go back to my original post and see that I never used the word tone. I merely stated that his CONSTANT complaining makes him come across as childish and whiny.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 09:23 AM
You've just proven my point, you can't read into tone or implied meaning.

True but your writings and therefore actions can come across as completely childish.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 09:23 AM
Please note that I put the word tone in quotes since I completely understand that there can be no such thing as a tone in a written document. Tone or feelings can only be implied by the reader. Go back to my original post and see that I never used the word tone. I merely stated that his CONSTANT complaining makes him come across as childish and whiny.

People complain when they're angry. Assuming that this means they are childish and whiny essentially implies you can't handle criticism.

juniorpfactors
04-08-2009, 09:24 AM
I'm bugged by the consistently poor decisions made by the "producers" of this game that obviously haven't got the first clue about truly balancing a game.

18 days, since my last quest and counting:( heres to ddo

jrp

TEK
04-08-2009, 09:24 AM
Please note that I put the word tone in quotes

please note that i did the exact same thing.


2+2 can come across as 5 to someone else, but it still equals 4

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 09:25 AM
If you had read the rest of the thread you'd understand this.

You've just proven my point, you can't read into tone or implied meaning.

Actually I did read it, and know very well what you meant by that op.
Obviously you're the one who missed my post :rolleyes:

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 09:28 AM
Actually I did read it, and know very well what you meant by that op.
Obviously you're the one who missed my post :rolleyes:

I think I got you confused with I_C. My apologies.

If you KNEW the sarcastic meaning of the OP, why did you even bother posting about further deviation?

Zenako
04-08-2009, 09:30 AM
Alternatively, they could have actually fixed these other weapons to work they way they should:
0 str = unconscious
0 dex = paralyzed

And actually fix monsters to be a challenge instead of just sacks of hit points.

Have always agreed that the effects of a 0 stat should be as pronounced on a monster as it is on a character, but even still those mobs have been seriously reduced in effectiveness (as anyone who routinely used w/e could attest). Were they rendered completely helpness, nope, were they gimped out severely, yup.

As to the other point about how they could "fix monsters to be a challenge" statement. How, given the rest of the game system already in place would you propose they do that. Arcane casters can routinely cast damage spells that do many hundrends if not over 1000 points of damage with the right gear and meta magics rolling.

Thus most "normal" mobs are one shot targets, and would never get a chance to use any challenging abilities. When the mobs are given features that give them a chance to use some of there abilities, everyone calls foul on that too.
Render mobs immune to IK effects, wah, stupid lazy DM.
Render mobs immune to certain damage types, wah, stupid lazy DM.
Give mobs instant teleporting at will making them very hard to target, wah, we need a chance to hit the mobs, this is not fair. (although this will be easier with changes to the focus orb in mod 9).
Give mobs ability to phase in and out (incorporeal) so that many of the shots whif, wah, we need to be able to actually hit them, this is not fair.
Give mobs the ability to trip as an area effect attack, wah, not fair.
Give mobs the ability to hurl characters around the map (air elementals), wah, not fair.

Ok, so what can they realistically do. If they lower HP significantly, they would need to nerf the hell out of metamagics in some fashion. Or that would just leave a mega easy button in the game for arcanes/casters. Then some of the sick bonus damages you can get in melee need to be toned back a bit as well. Probably should scale back the boosts on some enhancements too.

It is very easy to say "fix the monsters", it is not a very easy thing to do.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 09:31 AM
People complain when they're angry. Assuming that this means they are childish and whiny essentially implies you can't handle criticism.

Oh that is rich.

I'm fine if anyone wants to complain when they are angry but when they take it to a point that you have gone to that is beyond reasonable. If you had managed to keep your comments confined to one posted thread then I would probably not take issue with you. For clarity I mean one thread that you posted I could care less how many threads you post to.

Also you don't know me in the least so stating that I can't handle criticism is interesting to say the least especially in light of how you keep addressing the criticism against you.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 09:35 AM
Also you don't know me in the least so stating that I can't handle criticism is interesting to say the least especially in light of how you keep address the criticism against you.
If somebody, ANYBODY, had the guts to actually engage me in a debate about better fixes for the perceived imbalances in this game, instead of making personal attacks, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Nobody has stepped forth. Not even one.

When you make it all about the person and not the ideas, that's called ad hominem and is a logical fallacy. All arguments made from ad hominem can and should be ignored by any rational individual.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 09:38 AM
Ok, so what can they realistically do. If they lower HP significantly, they would need to nerf the hell out of metamagics in some fashion. Or that would just leave a mega easy button in the game for arcanes/casters. Then some of the sick bonus damages you can get in melee need to be toned back a bit as well. Probably should scale back the boosts on some enhancements too.

In hindsight they need to eliminate the previous changes to metamagics, put caps on metamagics via spell-level cap (for example, not being able to maximize, empower, AND extend Walls of Fire, which should require a level 10 spell slot). Being able to maximize AND empower a Polar Ray should be disallowed. In fact, at current level cap, we shouldn't be able to apply either one.

Bring balance back to the damage-dealing capabilities of the arcane caster and you bring this game back under control. The metamagic change of Mod 5 was the single most game-breaking thing ever put in to this game, and it needs to be taken away.

I primarily play arcane casters, and I approve of this method of a fix for the better of the game.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 09:44 AM
If somebody, ANYBODY, had the guts to actually engage me in a debate about better fixes for the perceived imbalances in this game, instead of making personal attacks, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Nobody has stepped forth. Not even one.

When you make it all about the person and not the ideas, that's called ad hominem and is a logical fallacy. All arguments made from ad hominem can and should be ignored by any rational individual.

Okay then lets start.

What do YOU perceive are the imbalances? Does EVERYONE share that opinion or just the top 10% of players? I'm dead serious because while I know there are imbalances in this game I don't see them as that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Provide me with your top 10 imbalances and lets talk about them.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 09:45 AM
If somebody, ANYBODY, had the guts to actually engage me in a debate about better fixes for the perceived imbalances in this game, instead of making personal attacks, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Because the most sensible idea - which I think most of us could agree - was already mentioned since ages ago, several times, more so in the last 2 days. Devs just don't listen to it at all.

Nerfing stat damage = breaks rules
Nerfing puncturing = fixes to be in line with pnp

Imo, that's what they should've done in the first place, fix the cause, not the effect.
Ofcourse if you think that finesse builds need to rely on wops then it would have the same effect to them, but that is a totally different discussion.

Kistilan
04-08-2009, 09:45 AM
If somebody, ANYBODY, had the guts to actually engage me in a debate about better fixes for the perceived imbalances in this game, instead of making personal attacks, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Nobody has stepped forth. Not even one.

When you make it all about the person and not the ideas, that's called ad hominem and is a logical fallacy. All arguments made from ad hominem can and should be ignored by any rational individual.

The truth is though you want to engage the Developers/Turbine Staff. We're just here to interrupt your tangent and let you know we're reading.

There have been plenty of threads on debate of potential fixes of the "perceived imbalance" of the game. The devs chose this path for a reason -- and sadly we might never get to hear their rationale. It could have come down to "this was the easiest fix to program without totally removing the weapon from game or nullifying its worth."

They may be setting the game up for later transitions too down the road where this will work favorably in game.

We don't know. We haven't even seen the new WoP 0-Con Effect in action against monsters.

Could they have done it differently? Yep.
Are they going to reprogram months of work? Nope.
Will they possibly change the way WoP works again if desired results are less-than-favorable? Possibly.
Does this take timie? Yes.
So you're saying.... Soon? Yes, Soon™.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 09:46 AM
I primarily play arcane casters, and I approve of this method of a fix for the better of the game.

But would everyone approve of this or would you have a completely new segment of the population complaining about the changes?

Tarrant
04-08-2009, 09:51 AM
This isn't a suggestion. It's a thread about combat, so I'm moving it to the combat forums so the appropriate people will look at it. If you want your feedback to be seen, try and keep it in the correct category.

Zenako
04-08-2009, 09:53 AM
In hindsight they need to eliminate the previous changes to metamagics, put caps on metamagics via spell-level cap (for example, not being able to maximize, empower, AND extend Walls of Fire, which should require a level 10 spell slot). Being able to maximize AND empower a Polar Ray should be disallowed. In fact, at current level cap, we shouldn't be able to apply either one.

Bring balance back to the damage-dealing capabilities of the arcane caster and you bring this game back under control. The metamagic change of Mod 5 was the single most game-breaking thing ever put in to this game, and it needs to be taken away.

I primarily play arcane casters, and I approve of this method of a fix for the better of the game.

Or they could revert to the old method of a % spell point cost increase that was multiplicative with each meta. I recall hearing the wizards saying I can only cast two "pumped" walls of fire (since they cost a lot of SP with all the multipliers). That would let someone do a mana dump, but likely drain them in a handful of castings. While that appeals to a certain side of me, it also leaves guest balance almost impossible since anyone with deep pockets could just maintain the top end killing ability via pots. Capping the max meta boost would be an easier way to achieve balance, and would remain truer to the D&D rule set.

Implications would also happen on the healing end of things too, but not as severely since I am convinced that much of the time many clerics end up vastly overhealing anyway.

However, to do this kind of thing well, a critical thing to implement would be the ability to select spells with customized preset meta's. Right click on a hot bar'd spell and select from available meta's. Once you reach the level limit, any additional selections are grayed out. So you could Hotbar a Wall of Fire with lets say MAX(+3) and EXT(+2) for a level 9 cost, but not with MAX,EXT and EMPOW. etc and so on.

Zenako
04-08-2009, 09:57 AM
This isn't a suggestion. It's a thread about combat, so I'm moving it to the combat forums so the appropriate people will look at it. If you want your feedback to be seen, try and keep it in the correct category.

But we are now turning it into a thread on the root of the problem or imbalance, the years old decision to amp up metamagic too much....

Raithe
04-08-2009, 09:58 AM
The metamagic change of Mod 5 was the single most game-breaking thing ever put in to this game, and it needs to be taken away.


I agree with the metamagic spell level cap. I always thought that was a good idea.

The metamagic changes in Mod 5 I consider to be good. They make more sense and actually cost more for first level spells than fourth, as otherwise you get a situation where lower level spells are cheaper and more destructive.

The real problem, which would not be undone by reverting metamagics, is the freely available SP that all casters have available. The chief culprits are:

1) Mana pots
2) Resetting shrines
3) Being able to recall and re-enter the same instance

Get rid of those three and remove some shrines (a lot) from all quests and you have the caster balance check that D&D has always used.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 10:00 AM
Okay then lets start.

What do YOU perceive are the imbalances? Does EVERYONE share that opinion or just the top 10% of players? I'm dead serious because while I know there are imbalances in this game I don't see them as that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Provide me with your top 10 imbalances and lets talk about them.
I don't really have a "top 10," because the majority of imbalances find their direct source in #1.

Starting with the most egregious imbalances:
#1. Sustainable overpowering DPS by arcane spellcasters, specifically the Mod 5 metamagic changes
2. Armor class differentials and benefits of TWF over S&B, can be rectified with loot options specifically targeted to shield-users, or implementing an "armor as DR" variant.
3. Ranger favored enemies.
4. DPS output vs. Monster hit points - finds its source in 1.
5. Drastic difference in usefulness among stat damage weapon varieties - finds its source in development failure to properly implement the effects of having 0 dex and 0 strength
6. Drastic disparity between ranged combat and melee - finds its source in poor translation of ranged combat to a real-time MMO.

those are the major ones I can think of right now.

Zenako
04-08-2009, 10:04 AM
Asp...you been drinking decafe today? :D

That double expresso frenzy you had in you before was scary....:eek:

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 10:07 AM
Asp...you been drinking decafe today? :D

That double expresso frenzy you had in you before was scary....:eek:

lol what? :confused:

PS - i never drink decaf....I just don't see the point.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 10:17 AM
I don't really have a "top 10," because the majority of imbalances find their direct source in #1.

Starting with the most egregious imbalances:
#1. Sustainable overpowering DPS by arcane spellcasters, specifically the Mod 5 metamagic changes
2. Armor class differentials and benefits of TWF over S&B, can be rectified with loot options specifically targeted to shield-users, or implementing an "armor as DR" variant.
3. Ranger favored enemies.
4. DPS output vs. Monster hit points - finds its source in 1.
5. Drastic difference in usefulness among stat damage weapon varieties - finds its source in development failure to properly implement the effects of having 0 dex and 0 strength
6. Drastic disparity between ranged combat and melee - finds its source in poor translation of ranged combat to a real-time MMO.

those are the major ones I can think of right now.

1. I agree that casters have an overpowering damage potential and that changing it back or making a further modification might be in line more. However, you must readily admit that this is just going to upset the whole caster population same as the whole wops population. If we don't want to upset anyone how else can it get fixed? Do we allow monsters the same abilities? Remember you wanted monsters to be a challenge but not sacks of hp. If you balance the other side and make enemy casters that much more deadlier how does that fit into your idea of things.

2. You'll get no argument that S&B AC should be better than TWF AC. I agree that loot options are one way to go but I also believe that S&B should get passive DR/blocking just because they have a shield. Heck it is definitely easier to block an enemy blow with a shield then it is a sword.

3. What is your exact complaint here? I realize rangers get bonuses of FE but some races get bonuses as well? Are you suggesting limiting to only 1 FE or elimination all together? Do you feel that FEs make rangers imbalanced since they get extra bonuses against these races?

4. Similar to what I said in #1 above. Why not bring monster dps on line with characters through the use of similar weaponry attacks etc. I do realize that there are certain bosses and mini bosses that can whack the crud out of us but when was the last time you saw a raging orc hit for 200+ or even 400+ hp?

5. Yeah there is a disparity in stat damage weapons no doubt, but I wouldn't stop there I would throw in paralyzers as well since they are broken and basically have a similar mechanic. Okay then we get DEFINED effects of a 0 stat. I also think to level the field enemy combatants should get to use these weapons as well.

6. Agreed. Up fire rates, more specialty arrows, multiple arrows at higher level just not with multishot. Make multishot a selectable feat for everyone or just ranged spec'd characters? What else?

Feedback?

Fennario
04-08-2009, 10:23 AM
Please don't nerf my caster. He already has a hard time getting into the big raids if there is another caster or two in the group. That is all.

RavenStormclaw
04-08-2009, 10:26 AM
If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

Carefull their Asp this statment is full of way to many assumptions. My weapons finesse character is a rogue. Lets see I can find and disable any trap in the game save cabal elite. I have the UMD to use any scroll I need to. With all the sneak attack damage bonus really didn't need w/p anyway i don't like the aggro. Perhaps you'd better rephrase to what you really meant weapon finesse ranger/fighter because every rogue in the game would argue this doesn't really gimp us at all...it was a nice bonus but not needed to make us usefull and if you can't see that then you need to rethink what a rogue is!

TEK
04-08-2009, 10:33 AM
1. I agree that casters have an overpowering damage potential and that changing it back or making a further modification might be in line more. However, you must readily admit that this is just going to upset the whole caster population same as the whole wops population. If we don't want to upset anyone how else can it get fixed? Do we allow monsters the same abilities? Remember you wanted monsters to be a challenge but not sacks of hp. If you balance the other side and make enemy casters that much more deadlier how does that fit into your idea of things.

This is kind of a moot point since any and up to this point everything has being debated/hated/despised by some portion of the ddo community. upsetting people is unavoidable. A change to casters of that magnitude would upset some casters(including me as well) but at least the reason is for the game as a whole not because someone is upset that casters don't need their help so they want to cut them down because they feel inferior.

2. You'll get no argument that S&B AC should be better than TWF AC. I agree that loot options are one way to go but I also believe that S&B should get passive DR/blocking just because they have a shield. Heck it is definitely easier to block an enemy blow with a shield then it is a sword.

I can agree to this. makes sense to me.


3. What is your exact complaint here? I realize rangers get bonuses of FE but some races get bonuses as well? Are you suggesting limiting to only 1 FE or elimination all together? Do you feel that FEs make rangers imbalanced since they get extra bonuses against these races?


I dont think we have any control over this. I believe this is because of turbines lack of creativity when it comes to monster implementation. There is 5 monster manuals out now(maybe more) that features at least 100 monsters and races in them but yet they implement different versions/levels of elementals and lazily toss ogres into every other quests with elevated stats. So obviously a rangers favoured enemy is gonna seem powerful since we dont have as much diversity amongst enemies.


4. Similar to what I said in #1 above. Why not bring monster dps on line with characters through the use of similar weaponry attacks etc. I do realize that there are certain bosses and mini bosses that can whack the crud out of us but when was the last time you saw a raging orc hit for 200+ or even 400+ hp?

I think some mobs/bosses should hit that hard. if out human barbarians can do that much damage with a regular +5 weapon then why cant their barbarian orcs or giants do as much? In turn it'll make alot of us think twice before aggroing high numbered mobs and maybe decide to slow down and use more "TEAM" tactics.








my thoughts

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 10:41 AM
TEK I agree with you about "nerfing" casters with a sp change. It would be looked at just like the up coming wop change but I think it would be worse just for the reason(s) you mentioned. You go from being very useful if not invaluable to inferior very quickly. At least with melees you can pull out another weapon and do dps if you don't like the stat damage change. So why not up the monster damage output on the casters? I think that is reasonable if and only if the enemy casters get an sp cap just like the players. Make it the same system on both sides.

LOL...It would be nice to see more monsters out there.

Edit: I think that no matter what is done on the player side there is always going to be a segment of the population that doesn't like it. Therefore I would suggest we solely look at the monster side of things and start there by bringing their dps on line with the players. Throw in more of them and then maybe then we won't need bosses with 50,000 hp?

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 10:43 AM
1. I agree that casters have an overpowering damage potential and that changing it back or making a further modification might be in line more. However, you must readily admit that this is just going to upset the whole caster population same as the whole wops population. If we don't want to upset anyone how else can it get fixed? Do we allow monsters the same abilities? Remember you wanted monsters to be a challenge but not sacks of hp. If you balance the other side and make enemy casters that much more deadlier how does that fit into your idea of things.

2. You'll get no argument that S&B AC should be better than TWF AC. I agree that loot options are one way to go but I also believe that S&B should get passive DR/blocking just because they have a shield. Heck it is definitely easier to block an enemy blow with a shield then it is a sword.

3. What is your exact complaint here? I realize rangers get bonuses of FE but some races get bonuses as well? Are you suggesting limiting to only 1 FE or elimination all together? Do you feel that FEs make rangers imbalanced since they get extra bonuses against these races?

4. Similar to what I said in #1 above. Why not bring monster dps on line with characters through the use of similar weaponry attacks etc. I do realize that there are certain bosses and mini bosses that can whack the crud out of us but when was the last time you saw a raging orc hit for 200+ or even 400+ hp?

5. Yeah there is a disparity in stat damage weapons no doubt, but I wouldn't stop there I would throw in paralyzers as well since they are broken and basically have a similar mechanic. Okay then we get DEFINED effects of a 0 stat. I also think to level the field enemy combatants should get to use these weapons as well.

6. Agreed. Up fire rates, more specialty arrows, multiple arrows at higher level just not with multishot. Make multishot a selectable feat for everyone or just ranged spec'd characters? What else?

Feedback?

1. While it would make a lot of people mad, it is treating the actual source of the problems and not the symptoms of the problems. Fixing metamagics should be done by implementing spell level adjustments and caps, and restoring the pre-mod 5 multiplicative metamagic costs. You should only be able to maximize/empower a wall of fire if you are a level 17 wizard, or 18 sorcerer. You should only be able to Maximize/empower a fireball if you are a level 15 wizard, or 16 sorcerer. You should never be able to even empower a polar ray until level 21 wizard, 22 sorcerer.

2. agree

3. I am suggesting implementing the RAW of favored enemies. Upon leveling to a level where you can choose a new favored enemy, you also get the CHOICE of favored enemy to which you add an additional +2 bonus. Currently ALL the ranger's favored enemies receive the +2 bonus. So, for example, if you always chose to get an additional +2 bonus to one favored enemy, your bonuses would be (at level 20): 2, 2, 2, 2, 10; if you chose to spread them out you'd have: 2, 4, 4, 4, 4. The way the rules are written, you can only choose one of your favored enemies, including the one just chosen, to get a +2 attack/damage bonus against when you get a new favored enemy. With the current rules, rangers get bonuses that are, at least (at 20): 10, 10, 10, 10, 10.

4. Fixing #1 would go a long way to fixing this, because they could tone back the hit points of monsters to be within reasonable DPS levels. Monsters should probably also attack slightly faster, but not hit harder.

5. Wouldn't be against enemies using our tricks against us, that's the way it should be.

6. An across the board rate of fire increase would go a long way to fixing this.

TEK
04-08-2009, 10:46 AM
LOL...It would be nice to see more monsters out there.

Yeah this is probably my biggest pet peeve about this game. Im really disapointed in the lack of creativity/effort turbine exudes every mod when it comes to monsters. I swear if we end up getting an undead wind elemental or something stupid like that i might actually have to contemplate quitting this game for the first time.

SneakThief
04-08-2009, 10:47 AM
I agree with the metamagic spell level cap. I always thought that was a good idea.

The metamagic changes in Mod 5 I consider to be good. They make more sense and actually cost more for first level spells than fourth, as otherwise you get a situation where lower level spells are cheaper and more destructive.

I agree ... I always thought that thier should be a cap. I thought the changes in 5 brought in more inline line with the rules ... the % metas were just off. Extending (+1) a 4th level spell, should not make it cost the SP of an 8th. It should be 5th. However, Max (+3) and Empower (+2) should not be able to surpass the max spell level you can cast. That would cut HP down A LOT.

Then of course, attack bonuses should not scale UP on later attacks (a result of a very early problem with being able to spam the first 2 attacks), they should scale down (no scaling would even be better than what we have). This would even out the mob AC level to where it should be as well.

But those are OLD problems ... the new one ... Yeah ... We'll just have to see how it works out. The best case scenario I see, is when the mob hits 0 in any ability, its stunned the whole time its at 0. Stunned is already coded into the game with the desired results for 0 ability: auto-crits, no movement, no attacking, no casting, etc. The current implementation of 0 abilty is so broken its not funny.

Raithe
04-08-2009, 10:47 AM
At least with melees you can pull out another weapon and do dps...

And a caster can pull out a wand, a scroll, or a missile weapon. Currently that is seen as completely unnecessary, which makes all those things I just listed rather useless.

Pwesiela
04-08-2009, 10:47 AM
3. What is your exact complaint here? I realize rangers get bonuses of FE but some races get bonuses as well? Are you suggesting limiting to only 1 FE or elimination all together? Do you feel that FEs make rangers imbalanced since they get extra bonuses against these races?

Ranger favored enemies receive the full benefit, regardless of when you take the enemy. In PnP, you're most effective against the first favored enemy, less for the second, even less for the third, etc.

In DDO, you are just as effective against every subsequent enemy as you are against your first.

This means that rangers get a massive boost to attack and damage against 5 races, not a massive boost against one, lesser against another, even less against a third, etc.

This makes rangers DPS kings against ALL of their favored enemies, even those they take as their 4th or 5th.

And lets face it, a LOT of mobs are covered by 5 favored enemies. For instance, the bulk of this game is covered by undead, giant, and evil outsiders, leaving 1 (soon to be 2) additional races to fill the gap you choose.

crschoen
04-08-2009, 10:50 AM
With every new Mod release, the "uber" build changes. Remember when the "Batman" build was the best possible build at the level 10 cap? When they changed evasion there was just as much uproar. Change is constant, it's what keeps the game fresh. If WOP were to remain the most uber thing in the game forever it would be kinda boring no? As it stands now, every raid I do has 40% weapon finesse dual TWF. I would love to see more diversity. I think the new cap stones and prestige additions are going to add a LOT of diversity and I'm excited about that. I'm sure within a month or two some power gamers will come up with the new "uber" build and you can make one of those.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 10:53 AM
1. While it would make a lot of people mad, it is treating the actual source of the problems and not the symptoms of the problems. Fixing metamagics should be done by implementing spell level adjustments and caps, and restoring the pre-mod 5 multiplicative metamagic costs. You should only be able to maximize/empower a wall of fire if you are a level 17 wizard, or 18 sorcerer. You should only be able to Maximize/empower a fireball if you are a level 15 wizard, or 16 sorcerer. You should never be able to even empower a polar ray until level 21 wizard, 22 sorcerer.

What you state makes perfect sense but in the end would alienate the casters to point where we would get even more posts about nerfing and leaving eh game. I'm not sure Turbine can take another hit like this. What about bringing enemy casters up to par with the characters? Do you feel it balances out some or just perpetuates the problem?

2. agree

3. I am suggesting implementing the RAW of favored enemies. Upon leveling to a level where you can choose a new favored enemy, you also get the CHOICE of favored enemy to which you add an additional +2 bonus. Currently ALL the ranger's favored enemies receive the +2 bonus. So, for example, if you always chose to get an additional +2 bonus to one favored enemy, your bonuses would be (at level 20): 2, 2, 2, 2, 10; if you chose to spread them out you'd have: 2, 4, 4, 4, 4. The way the rules are written, you can only choose one of your favored enemies, including the one just chosen, to get a +2 attack/damage bonus against when you get a new favored enemy. With the current rules, rangers get bonuses that are, at least (at 20): 10, 10, 10, 10, 10.

I see what you are saying and yeah that is an issue and one I admit I never even realized. Changing this shouldn't be too big of an issue because it doesn't "break" any gameplay or build.

4. Fixing #1 would go a long way to fixing this, because they could tone back the hit points of monsters to be within reasonable DPS levels. Monsters should probably also attack slightly faster, but not hit harder.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with you on the idea that monsters shouldn't hit harder. I'm not saying all of them mind you but there are certain ones that should be able to deal out as much damage as a player.

5. Wouldn't be against enemies using our tricks against us, that's the way it should be.

6. An across the board rate of fire increase would go a long way to fixing this.

Feedback

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 10:57 AM
Ranger favored enemies receive the full benefit, regardless of when you take the enemy. In PnP, you're most effective against the first favored enemy, less for the second, even less for the third, etc.

In DDO, you are just as effective against every subsequent enemy as you are against your first.

This means that rangers get a massive boost to attack and damage against 5 races, not a massive boost against one, lesser against another, even less against a third, etc.

This makes rangers DPS kings against ALL of their favored enemies, even those they take as their 4th or 5th.

And lets face it, a LOT of mobs are covered by 5 favored enemies. For instance, the bulk of this game is covered by undead, giant, and evil outsiders, leaving 1 (soon to be 2) additional races to fill the gap you choose.

When Asp further explained what the issue was it makes perfect sense to modify this. I would even mind seeing FEs going to a specific monster not an entire group. I realize this is probably more role-playing flavor but it would scale back the imbalance.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 11:00 AM
With every new Mod release, the "uber" build changes. Remember when the "Batman" build was the best possible build at the level 10 cap? When they changed evasion there was just as much uproar. Change is constant, it's what keeps the game fresh. If WOP were to remain the most uber thing in the game forever it would be kinda boring no? As it stands now, every raid I do has 40% weapon finesse dual TWF. I would love to see more diversity. I think the new cap stones and prestige additions are going to add a LOT of diversity and I'm excited about that. I'm sure within a month or two some power gamers will come up with the new "uber" build and you can make one of those.

Don't disagree and that is one of the problems inherent in any game. The problem I see is that too many people build around specific gear and when things do change as they always will then they are SOL or must learn to adapt. Let's face it we all hate change especially when it upsets our little worlds.

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:02 AM
meh caster damage is fine with current enhancements

current casters fight the same problems as melees do when it comes to mobs. Most trash they can easily blow up, but have to use different tactics on 'elite devils' and prey giants.

If you changed the metamagics back, then a caster wouldnt be able to blow up a trog even in part 1 shroud. The damage caster spends more sp doing DPS than he does just using a FoD on trash mobs.

yes a firewall enabled a caster to use less sp to kill multiple monsters, but this can be accounted for by fire resistance, immunity, and rate of monster encounters. Slow waves, or lots of spaced encounters require more firewalls.

Right now you have to max and empower a high level damage spell to achieve the same effect as instakill. Which is fine, considering alot of that is AoE. Then you're also looking at mass instakill very soon.




Seriously, caster damage is no longer a problem. Its not like we're facing all undead content anymore, with double damage firewalls on hoardes of skeletons. HOW is caster damage broken in current content????

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:07 AM
I know that lowering caster DPS would make a fair portion of the community upset, but it's the real way to bring balance back to the game. It would make it unnecessary to arbitrarily tack on thousands of hit points to monsters, which in turn makes things like vorpals and constitution damage the optimal route to dealing with encounters.

I still maintain that WP is only overpowered when alternative options are virtually useless. The reason it's overpowered is that it's approximately 2x as effective as just wounding or puncturing alone. However, with the ~4000 hit extra hit points monsters have above and beyond their HD, it only makes sense that constitution damage will be used instead of DPS.

To make DPS relevant, they need to make it at least remotely efficient. Nerfing constitution damage isn't the way to make DPS relevant. Nerfing monsters and their absurd hit points IS. The difference between using a high DPS weapon and a constitution damaging weapon in lower-end content is hardly noticeable, whereas in content where the devs balanced for overpowered caster DPS the constitution damaging weapon becomes the clear and obvious most efficient thing to use.

Turial
04-08-2009, 11:08 AM
Ranger favored enemies receive the full benefit, regardless of when you take the enemy. In PnP, you're most effective against the first favored enemy, less for the second, even less for the third, etc.

In DDO, you are just as effective against every subsequent enemy as you are against your first.

This means that rangers get a massive boost to attack and damage against 5 races, not a massive boost against one, lesser against another, even less against a third, etc.

This makes rangers DPS kings against ALL of their favored enemies, even those they take as their 4th or 5th.

And lets face it, a LOT of mobs are covered by 5 favored enemies. For instance, the bulk of this game is covered by undead, giant, and evil outsiders, leaving 1 (soon to be 2) additional races to fill the gap you choose.

While this is true...you realise that it is possible to have one favored enemy selection cover the majority of the mobs one would face for the various level ranges.

An interesting partial solution to the FE issue would be to have a staggered favored enemy feat tree system, +2, +4, +6, +8, +10. At each level a ranger can choose if the old feat selection moves up the tree in terms of bonus damage.

That being said I am not against the system Asp posted a few posts above.

TEK
04-08-2009, 11:09 AM
meh caster damage is fine with current enhancements

current casters fight the same problems as melees do when it comes to mobs. Most trash they can easily blow up, but have to use different tactics on 'elite devils' and prey giants.

If you changed the metamagics back, then a caster wouldnt be able to blow up a trog even in part 1 shroud. The damage caster spends more sp doing DPS than he does just using a FoD on trash mobs.

yes a firewall enabled a caster to use less sp to kill multiple monsters, but this can be accounted for by fire resistance, immunity, and rate of monster encounters. Slow waves, or lots of spaced encounters require more firewalls.

Right now you have to max and empower a high level damage spell to achieve the same effect as instakill. Which is fine, considering alot of that is AoE. Then you're also looking at mass instakill very soon.




Seriously, caster damage is no longer a problem. Its not like we're facing all undead content anymore, with double damage firewalls on hoardes of skeletons. HOW is caster damage broken in current content????



but content doesnt disappear so neither does the problem. The content simply stops being the current content but it's still around for people after you to experience.

Thats not really fair on alot of levels.

dameron
04-08-2009, 11:12 AM
I know that lowering caster DPS would make a fair portion of the community upset, but it's the real way to bring balance back to the game. It would make it unnecessary to arbitrarily tack on thousands of hit points to monsters, which in turn makes things like vorpals and constitution damage the optimal route to dealing with encounters.


One could, say, make it so that casters can't cast any any spell with a metamagic feat combination that raises it above the maximum spell level. Enhancement lines and capstones might add to that total.

That + lower mob HP would be fun to watch.

Zenako
04-08-2009, 11:14 AM
meh caster damage is fine with current enhancements

current casters fight the same problems as melees do when it comes to mobs. Most trash they can easily blow up, but have to use different tactics on 'elite devils' and prey giants.

If you changed the metamagics back, then a caster wouldnt be able to blow up a trog even in part 1 shroud. The damage caster spends more sp doing DPS than he does just using a FoD on trash mobs.

yes a firewall enabled a caster to use less sp to kill multiple monsters, but this can be accounted for by fire resistance, immunity, and rate of monster encounters. Slow waves, or lots of spaced encounters require more firewalls.

Right now you have to max and empower a high level damage spell to achieve the same effect as instakill. Which is fine, considering alot of that is AoE. Then you're also looking at mass instakill very soon.




Seriously, caster damage is no longer a problem. Its not like we're facing all undead content anymore, with double damage firewalls on hoardes of skeletons. HOW is caster damage broken in current content????

The point is that current content is scaled to handle caster damage output with the easy metas we have. Had casters not been as overpowered, then there would have been less of a need to have 3000 HP mobs to fight, and since melee has no easy feat(s) to double or triple or more their damage, melee DPS falls way behind in utility, which lead to the prevalence of W/p.

W/p has always worked at a certain level, but if you can just DPS the mob as quick, it was no big deal. It was only when the HP of the mobs grew so high, in response to arcane direct damage spells that melee dps fell by the wayside. That is why the root of the problem was the easy boosting of magic damage. It was the seed of the problem. Now it is also true that so many things have since happened based on that seed that really fixing it will not be easy or be a happy time for some.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:16 AM
One could, say, make it so that casters can't cast any any spell with a metamagic feat combination that raises it above the maximum spell level. Enhancement lines and capstones might add to that total.

That + lower mob HP would be fun to watch.

That is exactly my proposal, and has been for a long, long time.

crschoen
04-08-2009, 11:21 AM
The point is that current content is scaled to handle caster damage output with the easy metas we have. Had casters not been as overpowered, then there would have been less of a need to have 3000 HP mobs to fight, and since melee has no easy feat(s) to double or triple or more their damage, melee DPS falls way behind in utility, which lead to the prevalence of W/p.


I don't post very often so I find this quite ironic. One of my last posts was in response to a heated thread the other day where the OP had said they won't take casters in their raids anymore, implying that casters are useless. Now in this thread the message seems to be that casters are over-powered?

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:22 AM
I don't post very often so I find this quite ironic. One of my last posts was in response to a heated thread the other day where the OP had said they won't take casters in their raids anymore, implying that casters are useless. Now in this thread the message seems to be that casters are over-powered?

Have you run Mod 2-5 content with a fire/cold specced sorcerer lately?

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:30 AM
The point is that current content is scaled to handle caster damage output with the easy metas we have. Had casters not been as overpowered, then there would have been less of a need to have 3000 HP mobs to fight, and since melee has no easy feat(s) to double or triple or more their damage, melee DPS falls way behind in utility, which lead to the prevalence of W/p.

W/p has always worked at a certain level, but if you can just DPS the mob as quick, it was no big deal. It was only when the HP of the mobs grew so high, in response to arcane direct damage spells that melee dps fell by the wayside. That is why the root of the problem was the easy boosting of magic damage. It was the seed of the problem. Now it is also true that so many things have since happened based on that seed that really fixing it will not be easy or be a happy time for some.

bah critters start getting nastey above 3k hp, but those are not exactly common. Most of the end game trash falls around 1k to 2k. You cant honestly say that elite devils have 3k+ HP solely b/c of casters. They're mock red named monsters inside a 12 man dungeon, they wouldnt be very elite if they had half of that, in fact, they'd just be a cleaving sturdy trog.

1500 HP mobs fall down fast enough to melee, and require multiple meta'd spells to kill UNLESS the caster gets a crit. Well if the caster gets a crit on his spell he deserves to kill the stupid thing. Thats an item slot and several action points pursueing the crit line. He's not going to crit and kill a giant in Prey or SoS or an elite devil.

And sturdy mobs need more than 2k HP just to survive agaisnt a group of melee characters for more than a second or two. Pallies smiting for 500+, barbs soon to crit for that, several different character classes and multiclass builds capable of 400 DPS, with larger numbers in spurts. Monster HP inflation is not due to casters alone.

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:32 AM
Have you run Mod 2-5 content with a fire/cold specced sorcerer lately?

i can solo mod 2-5 content even easier on my cleric/monk


in fact my barbarian does alot of it even faster just b/c of sprint boost

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:34 AM
bah critters start getting nastey above 3k hp, but those are not exactly common. Most of the end game trash falls around 1k to 2k. You cant honestly say that elite devils have 3k+ HP solely b/c of casters. They're mock red named monsters inside a 12 man dungeon, they wouldnt be very elite if they had half of that, in fact, they'd just be a cleaving sturdy trog.

1500 HP mobs fall down fast enough to melee, and require multiple meta'd spells to kill UNLESS the caster gets a crit. Well if the caster gets a crit on his spell he deserves to kill the stupid thing. Thats an item slot and several action points pursueing the crit line. He's not going to crit and kill a giant in Prey or SoS or an elite devil.

And sturdy mobs need more than 2k HP just to survive agaisnt a group of melee characters for more than a second or two. Pallies smiting for 500+, barbs soon to crit for that, several different character classes and multiclass builds capable of 400 DPS, with larger numbers in spurts. Monster HP inflation is not due to casters alone.

If hit by a critical smite, or a barbarian critical hit with a heavy pick, a monster should be DEAD as well. That's the entire point of critical hits. Needing to score 5 of them to take out a monster is ridiculous.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:35 AM
i can solo mod 2-5 content even easier on my cleric/monk


in fact my barbarian does alot of it even faster just b/c of sprint boost

Pretty much irrelevant, because the fire/cold specced sorcerer will make you feel completely useless if he happens to be fighting the same monsters you are. Being able to solo something doesn't mean anything in this discussion.

TEK
04-08-2009, 11:36 AM
i can solo mod 2-5 content even easier on my cleric/monk


in fact my barbarian does alot of it even faster just b/c of sprint boost


If hit by a critical smite, or a barbarian critical hit with a heavy pick, a monster should be DEAD as well. That's the entire point of critical hits. Needing to score 5 of them to take out a monster is ridiculous.

5!!?? dont u think ur underexaggerating?

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:37 AM
5!!?? dont u think ur underexaggerating?

Yes.

Having to score 10+ criticals against monsters like frost giants is also ridiculous. It's exactly why W/P is so powerful in these quests.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 11:38 AM
5!!?? Dont U Think Ur Underexaggerating?

Qft

TEK
04-08-2009, 11:39 AM
Yes.

Having to score 10+ criticals against monsters like frost giants is also ridiculous. It's exactly why W/P is so powerful in these quests.

QFT, even though i still think you're underexaggerating :D

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 11:39 AM
Yes.

Having to score 10+ criticals against monsters like frost giants is also ridiculous. It's exactly why W/P is so powerful in these quests.

And that is why the devs are making the change...we're not supposed to be powerful.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:41 AM
And that is why the devs are making the change...we're not supposed to be powerful.

Adventurers aren't supposed to be powerful???

Well gee......I guess this Dungeons Master's Guide lied to me.

/burn

TEK
04-08-2009, 11:41 AM
And that is why the devs are making the change...we're not supposed to be powerful.

and thats why we're complaining that they changed the WRONG THING.

we finally seem to be getting somewhere

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:42 AM
Pretty much irrelevant, because the fire/cold specced sorcerer will make you feel completely useless if he happens to be fighting the same monsters you are. Being able to solo something doesn't mean anything in this discussion.

and neither does revisiting mod 2-5 content

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:43 AM
and neither does revisiting mod 2-5 content

Right, because previous content should be ignored altogether....:rolleyes:

Even with level appropriate characters, with no fancy items, the fire/cold sorcerer makes all other characters' roles in a quest useless.

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:43 AM
Yes.

Having to score 10+ criticals against monsters like frost giants is also ridiculous. It's exactly why W/P is so powerful in these quests.

thats frost giants, how many crits do you need agaisnt the monks in monastery? or the trogs in shroud.

one awesome crit (smite or new barb) or 1 hit and 1 crit

dont base all ur fuss on the handful of supermobs that pop up. you're not supposed to fight the giants in prey. and all the other super high HP mobs are in raids

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 11:44 AM
Right, because previous content should be ignored altogether....:rolleyes:

Even with level appropriate characters, with no fancy items, the fire/cold sorcerer makes all other characters' roles in a quest useless.

Then why aren't we all running around just playing fire/cold sorcs?

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:45 AM
Right, because previous content should be ignored altogether....:rolleyes:

Even with level appropriate characters, with no fancy items, the fire/cold sorcerer makes all other characters' roles in a quest useless.

lol we can go aroudn in circles with this


btw my barb can get to the mobs alot faster than your sorc or wiz, and have them dead before you get there. its pretty much one hit kill in anything before mod 5

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:46 AM
thats frost giants, how many crits do you need agaisnt the monks in monastery? or the trogs in shroud.

one awesome crit (smite or new barb) or 1 hit and 1 crit

dont base all ur fuss on the handful of supermobs that pop up. you're not supposed to fight the giants in prey. and all the other super high HP mobs are in raids

Monks in the monastery will still take at least a few critical hits. The point of critical hits is that they are supposed to be critical damage, not "oh shucks that one actually hurt a little bit."

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:46 AM
Then why aren't we all running around just playing fire/cold sorcs?

I guess you missed Mod 5....;)

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 11:48 AM
lol we can go aroudn in circles with this


btw my barb can get to the mobs alot faster than your sorc or wiz, and have them dead before you get there. its pretty much one hit kill in anything before mod 5

Sure it is....when you're level 16 with greensteal....

If you haven't figured out that hit point totals on current monsters were the devs' way of indirectly nerfing sorc DPS, I can't help you, you don't really want to see the truth.

redoubt
04-08-2009, 11:49 AM
I agree. This move was not needed. The change to what happens at con 0 is the wrong direction to go.

Accelerando
04-08-2009, 11:49 AM
Hi Asp! /waves


And I've never seen someone so incredibly BLIND to what I'm saying. I know you don't like me. I could care less about that. I also could care less about what you think was written on the wall, or what you think has been coming for a long time.

I'm not whining, I'm not acting like a baby (nice insult, that tends to be the tactic of people that don't have the higher brain functions to actually debate a topic). I'm upset about decisions made and lack of insight. I'll take your posts seriously when you learn to actually stay on topic and not insult people. Until then, you have been dismissed.

I am not insulting you. I am not calling you a baby, yet pointing out that you are acting like one who has had his favorite toy taken from him in the sandbox. The garbage about brain function blahblahblah is more of an insult than that. I am simply pointing out your behavior. Holding up a mirror for you to maybe take a second and reflect, on yousrelf, and all the changes this game has seen over the years.

You can't possibly know that I don't like you. In fact I do respect you, as a player and as a person via testimonials from people in my guild whom i trust and hold in high regard. What I am saying to you comes from no malice, ill will, nor from some desire to see you look like an ass on these forums. On the contraty I was just trying to reign you in at a time where you seemed to have lost perspective.

Check out some of the poignant topics from this thread that you have seemed to overlooked which will make your finesse character playable again! (as if it ever wasn't)


hmmmmmmmmmmm I believe FE damage and sneak damage both beat the snot out of what either class could get by starting with 18 str and lvl up points. Thats what 10 str over a dex build of the same class? +5 main hand/+3 offhand??? compared to +16 damage both hands from ranger abilities or how many dice enhancements for rogue???


Miss this one did ya? Or you ignored it at least.


As I stated in another thread, the Rapier of Puncturing is based on the DnD concept of 5-6 encounters PER DAY. DDO characters encounter from between 12 to 50 encounters per "day."

I think we both know that this is garbage. There is no way to make the Rapier of Puncturing equal to the WoP in DDO. A Rapier of Puncturing can be activate 3 times per day. Even if we encountered 10 times as many encounters pre day (i.e. rest shrine) as a PnP player, a Beholder Optics type drain on puncturing would leave us at no effect after 30 crits. How many easy button kills is that? 5, 6? Would that really make you feel better about the change?


If people can't see why the proposed changes make weapon finesse characters completely obsolete and gimped to hell, they might need to take a good hard look at their weapon finesse characters and consider what they contribute to the party.

I ran a shroud tonight on my weak a** 28 pt dex rogue. I used Bursting of Puncturing and did fine. I added to the party. Would a str based rogue have done better? Probably. But we survived, and it took no longer (in terms of statistical significance) than any other party. If I had dropped my Str based rogue in there, we might have save a total of 1 min. That is how much 1 character contributes to a party of 12.


No offense, but that's an illusion. you may think you're contributing, but you're not (at least not enough that you'd be better replaced by another character).

See above. And if you are talking 6 man quests, well that remains to be seen. What will the DR be in mod 9. More importantly, what will the fort be?!? Can we have this discussion after the mod is released?


Hey can I get another color besides blue?

I still have pink available. Is that ok?


Sorry Asp but you are whining and acting childish standing there on your soap box. You been throwing up multiple post complaining about all the changes that are coming with Mod 9.

Honestly are some of the changes poor decisions? Probably but are they going to break the game? No, not how I see it. I understand you may see it differently. I say play the new Mod first and then rationally post what is not working.

QFT


Whining or acting childish implies tone that does not exist in my posts. This is serious criticism, not "wah wah wah," despite what you may or may not believe. Numerous poor decisions led to where we are today, and just because I am actually taking a stand about it doesn't mean I'm whining.

Don't be sorry. I'm not.


Numerous grumbly and ornery posts across all forums DOES equate to childish anger. AKA Wah my daddy took my toy dumptruck away and gave me a toy forklift. Now I have to spend 1.25 % of the time to accomplish the same task... hauling dolly heads.
BOO HOO.

Really man you are better than all this.

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:54 AM
Sure it is....when you're level 16 with greensteal....

If you haven't figured out that hit point totals on current monsters were the devs' way of indirectly nerfing sorc DPS, I can't help you, you don't really want to see the truth.

and b/c the sorc can do it at lvl 16 w/o any fancy gear is supposed to make it ok??

melee requires far more gear to function, all the caster needs is potency, characters levels, and a stat item. Everything else is just gravy for them, especially if you look at your favorite spell of discussion firewall, no dc, just have the sp to lay it down.

Ironforge_Clan
04-08-2009, 11:58 AM
I guess you missed Mod 5....;)

Nope didn't miss it just hate one trick ponies and running around like a jack rabbit when I get aggro.

Accelerando
04-08-2009, 11:59 AM
and b/c the sorc can do it at lvl 16 w/o any fancy gear is supposed to make it ok??

melee requires far more gear to function, all the caster needs is potency, characters levels, and a stat item. Everything else is just gravy for them, especially if you look at your favorite spell of discussion firewall, no dc, just have the sp to lay it down.

I like that you have two barbs in your sig yet feel qualified to make this statement. You don't just lay it down, you have to lay it down and not die. That is a big difference.

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 11:59 AM
Sure it is....when you're level 16 with greensteal....

If you haven't figured out that hit point totals on current monsters were the devs' way of indirectly nerfing sorc DPS, I can't help you, you don't really want to see the truth.

any monster with less than 2k HP is childs play for a party, and barely a challenge for any good DPS tank. yet that number is more than one spell or two on anything but a very nice crit. In current content arcane damage potential works fine. You have the possibility of nuking something, instakill, or cc. If you change metamagics to what you're asking, then you're eliminating the possibility of nuking.

Why spend 3x as much sp to nuke something when you can just put a finger over its head? Currently you still spend more sp to nuke, but you get the opportunity to damage more than one monster. Chain Lit, DBF, etc.

Accelerando
04-08-2009, 12:04 PM
any monster with less than 2k HP is childs play for a party, and barely a challenge for any good DPS tank. yet that number is more than one spell or two on anything but a very nice crit. In current content arcane damage potential works fine. You have the possibility of nuking something, instakill, or cc. If you change metamagics to what you're asking, then you're eliminating the possibility of nuking.

Why spend 3x as much sp to nuke something when you can just put a finger over its head? Currently you still spend more sp to nuke, but you get the opportunity to damage more than one monster. Chain Lit, DBF, etc.

Which mod are we talking about? In mod 9 you are better off dropping a few norm scorching rays to draw aggro, FTSing the bad boys in a tight radius, then dropping a few FWs 1 CK and moving on. Chain Lit and DBF are worthless in this context.

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 12:18 PM
I like that you have two barbs in your sig yet feel qualified to make this statement. You don't just lay it down, you have to lay it down and not die. That is a big difference.

lol its an old old old sig


and yes a barbarian can do that, lay it down and not die

BlackSteel
04-08-2009, 12:29 PM
Which mod are we talking about? In mod 9 you are better off dropping a few norm scorching rays to draw aggro, FTSing the bad boys in a tight radius, then dropping a few FWs 1 CK and moving on. Chain Lit and DBF are worthless in this context.

you've played mod 9? good for you


mod 8 content, u find urself stoning alot of the kobolds or elves?

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 01:26 PM
Which mod are we talking about? In mod 9 you are better off dropping a few norm scorching rays to draw aggro, FTSing the bad boys in a tight radius, then dropping a few FWs 1 CK and moving on. Chain Lit and DBF are worthless in this context.

Hmmm, kaiii...

3*scorch = 45 mana (not to mention norm scorching rays wont do anything in regards to aggro)
3*heightened fts = 150 mana
2*max*emp*ext fw = 150 mana
1*max*emp*ext ck (yes, we talking bout mod9) = 80 mana

total = 425

Or you could just use wail of banshee *2 for 100 mana.
Oh and don't forget that devils are immune to fire.

Kintro
04-08-2009, 02:18 PM
since melee has no easy feat(s) to double or triple or more their damage, melee DPS falls way behind in utility, which lead to the prevalence of W/p.


Stunning Blow. Just not on red names.

But even then (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170978) wounding wins.

Riggs
04-08-2009, 02:49 PM
I agree with one thing - as a deviation from D&D rules Weapon finesse should be dropped.

By default - a character should use strength OR dexterity as the weapon attack bonus for light weapons designated as 'finessable'.

A character that from birth to adventure age has been using dex all his/her life - but as soon as they pick up a dagger - they turn into a klutz?

It should not require a feat for feat starved players to simply use the best stat for the appropriate weapon.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 03:02 PM
By default - a character should use strength OR dexterity as the weapon attack bonus for light weapons designated as 'finessable'.

What about non-light finessable weapons?

Accelerando
04-08-2009, 05:58 PM
Hmmm, kaiii...

3*scorch = 45 mana (not to mention norm scorching rays wont do anything in regards to aggro)
3*heightened fts = 150 mana
2*max*emp*ext fw = 150 mana
1*max*emp*ext ck (yes, we talking bout mod9) = 80 mana

total = 425

Or you could just use wail of banshee *2 for 100 mana.
Oh and don't forget that devils are immune to fire.

Hey Mr Smart number cruncher... CK is a higher lvl spell than FW. :rolleyes:
Just because max and imp don't change the cost now doesn't meant it won't after the mod.

And who the hell heightens FTS? Reroll.

Vivanto
04-08-2009, 08:03 PM
Hey Mr Smart number cruncher... CK is a higher lvl spell than FW. :rolleyes:

Yes indeed, and I used it as such. Here have a cup of coffe, it's alright.


Just because max and imp don't change the cost now doesn't meant it won't after the mod.
This sentence makes no sense at all. I used all the current metamagic costs, and they are the exact same in next mod.

And who the hell heightens FTS? Reroll.
Oh dammit you're right, I'm so embarassed, there ya go you saved a whole lot of 45 sp, oh wait you likely need at least 1 more cast of it to land, so only saved 10sp, happy? Dosen't change the fact that you're wasting 4+ times more mana regardless.

Aspenor
04-08-2009, 08:03 PM
You can't possibly know that I don't like you. In fact I do respect you, as a player and as a person via testimonials from people in my guild whom i trust and hold in high regard. What I am saying to you comes from no malice, ill will, nor from some desire to see you look like an ass on these forums. On the contraty I was just trying to reign you in at a time where you seemed to have lost perspective.Interesting.


Miss this one did ya? Or you ignored it at least.
Must have missed it, I've been AFK for several hours and probably didn't see it earlier while at work. I've addressed FE already. It's broken. SA is supposed to be the highest possible melee DPS, I know it works.



I think we both know that this is garbage. There is no way to make the Rapier of Puncturing equal to the WoP in DDO. A Rapier of Puncturing can be activate 3 times per day. Even if we encountered 10 times as many encounters pre day (i.e. rest shrine) as a PnP player, a Beholder Optics type drain on puncturing would leave us at no effect after 30 crits. How many easy button kills is that? 5, 6? Would that really make you feel better about the change? It'd be preferential to what is currently proposed.




I ran a shroud tonight on my weak a** 28 pt dex rogue. I used Bursting of Puncturing and did fine. I added to the party. Would a str based rogue have done better? Probably. But we survived, and it took no longer (in terms of statistical significance) than any other party. If I had dropped my Str based rogue in there, we might have save a total of 1 min. That is how much 1 character contributes to a party of 12.

See above. And if you are talking 6 man quests, well that remains to be seen. What will the DR be in mod 9. More importantly, what will the fort be?!? Can we have this discussion after the mod is released?

I still have pink available. Is that ok?

QFT

Numerous grumbly and ornery posts across all forums DOES equate to childish anger. AKA Wah my daddy took my toy dumptruck away and gave me a toy forklift. Now I have to spend 1.25 % of the time to accomplish the same task... hauling dolly heads.
BOO HOO.

Really man you are better than all this.
I see your points, and yeah I know I'm overreacting. It tends to be my MO. Shock factor. If you want to call it whining, so be it. My friends know that all will be fine in my world, but if you want to know the honest truth, I get a major kick out of stirring the pot. It brightens boring days when I'm at work.

/shrug

paldera
04-08-2009, 08:06 PM
Aspenor,

You seem pretty pyssed off right now about things having seen your posts today.

Your bugged by something mate...and I suggest you take a short break from the forums/game and take some time out to chill and cool down.

Its all I could say

Accelerando
04-08-2009, 08:07 PM
I Get A Major Kick Out Of Stirring The Pot. It Brightens Boring Days When I'm At Work.

Qft :D

Aspenor
04-09-2009, 10:53 AM
I agree with one thing - as a deviation from D&D rules Weapon finesse should be dropped.

By default - a character should use strength OR dexterity as the weapon attack bonus for light weapons designated as 'finessable'.

A character that from birth to adventure age has been using dex all his/her life - but as soon as they pick up a dagger - they turn into a klutz?

It should not require a feat for feat starved players to simply use the best stat for the appropriate weapon.

Wow, I find myself agreeing with this completely. Thank you for the insight....it's sheer genius.

Desteria
04-10-2009, 03:23 AM
I agree with one thing - as a deviation from D&D rules Weapon finesse should be dropped.

By default - a character should use strength OR dexterity as the weapon attack bonus for light weapons designated as 'finessable'.

A character that from birth to adventure age has been using dex all his/her life - but as soon as they pick up a dagger - they turn into a klutz?

It should not require a feat for feat starved players to simply use the best stat for the appropriate weapon.

Other Wise known as 4th ed ;)

Uska
04-10-2009, 04:01 AM
I agree with one thing - as a deviation from D&D rules Weapon finesse should be dropped.

By default - a character should use strength OR dexterity as the weapon attack bonus for light weapons designated as 'finessable'.
A character that from birth to adventure age has been using dex all his/her life - but as soon as they pick up a dagger - they turn into a klutz?

It should not require a feat for feat starved players to simply use the best stat for the appropriate weapon.

Ummm what? it works pretty much like it should unless your maybe talking 4E and not to sure about that but in regular dnd you use str for your to hit bonus in melee and dex for range. in 3.0-3.5 you take the feat, and just because you think your feat starved doesnt make it so, your not supose to be able to get it all, we have enough power escalation already without something like this

Uska
04-10-2009, 04:02 AM
Other Wise known as 4th ed ;)

or we placed the name dnd something that isnt dnd

Aspenor
04-10-2009, 07:07 AM
or we placed the name dnd something that isnt dnd

you mean the game we're playing right now? :rolleyes: The one where con 0 doesnt equal dead?

PS - that's not a complaint, it's a point to show that this specific argument is flawed

Galtin
05-13-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm new to the game and have no idea what the controversy is here. I have a DEX based rogue who dual wields and got one level as a fighter in order to select Weapon Finesse. My base DEX is 18 and STR is 10 so went this route to lessen the impact of the dual wield penalty.

Is something changing in Mod 9 that will invalidate that build approach?

Zenako
05-13-2009, 05:00 PM
Not really.

All that is happening is that the special effects of certain weapons (stat damagers) are being made more consistently applied across all three types (CON, STR and DEX). Instead of simply being dead at 0 CON, the mobs will be "helpless". That reflects more what had been happening to mobs at 0 STR or 0 DEX.

What ****ed off a few was since CON Damage only comes on Puncturing Weapons, and the Rapier has a real nice 18-20 Base Critical chance of triggering the special on Crit hit effect called Puncturing, the over whelming uberness of Wounding of Puncturing Rapiers is being reduced slightly. Keep in mind that for some players, even reducing something 5% in effectiveness is "Killing the whole concept". So instead of being 60% more effective than almost any other method, it is only 35% more effective than any other method and they feel ripped off, since they needed that edge to make them happy with their gameplay.