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View Full Version : Negative Levels and Ability Score Damage: Do we really need another easy button?



maddmatt70
04-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Negative Levels and Ability Score Damage: Do we really need another easy button? The change to regeneration of negative levels and ability score damage is yet another easy button for players.. Why depart from D&D rules and change this? It sounds like another easy button added to the game. Any character can just sit there and regenerate instead of drinking a restore pot or going to length to relieve a negative level with this change. I can see it now some pug cleric refusing to restore a melee's negative levels because they will just regenerate them in a few minutes. Let's just reward laziness..

Impaqt
04-06-2009, 09:24 PM
I never would fix one neg level anyway.... 2 or more, sure I'll throw a greater.... As for ability damage.. Lessor Restore comes in pots. If the damage doesnt bother ya, no sweat, till go away, if it does, drink a pot...

Drekisen
04-06-2009, 09:24 PM
As stated many times in the past, and what will be stated many times in the future....

DDO is not D&D

One is played with pixels and on a computer...

the other is played with pencil, papers, books, etc.....


Some things are bound to be different.

Humperdink
04-06-2009, 09:25 PM
Agreed. Way to gut those that have taken the time to grind out Visor of the Flesh Renderer or have chosen WF as their race with all the positives and negatives that encompasses. Why should my sorcerer UMD restoration scrolls now? Might as well just tell the other party members to wait. Von 3 just became easier.

BigBadBarry
04-06-2009, 09:27 PM
Agree with Impaqt.

No big issue really - how many groups on the way to Hound going to sit around for 4 minutes whilst we wait for you to get back 4 neg lvls?

Gum
04-06-2009, 09:27 PM
I would like to hear both arguments, from both sides on this one. I don't understand it either...yet.

Hendrik
04-06-2009, 09:35 PM
I would like to hear both arguments, from both sides on this one. I don't understand it either...yet.

I dunno...


Larger parties would heal it or move on Like Impaqt said.

Smaller, Solo, and PD, this might be of some real benefit though.

I'm sure someday I will be happy it is there.

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 09:40 PM
you cant drink a potion when you're at 0 str


and a real group will just cure you anyway whether than let the -stat/level go away over time. No impact really on parties, but it helps out people who like to solo a bit. Ever soloed undead content on a melee character? It gets annoying very fast, drinking more restore pots than cure/repairs; or recalling at 0 str.

Lithic
04-06-2009, 09:59 PM
I think it was a good idea, but the timer is too short. 5mins per level would be more reasonable IMO.

ArkoHighStar
04-06-2009, 10:03 PM
I think it was a good idea, but the timer is too short. 5mins per level would be more reasonable IMO.

agreed, make it happen but make it painful to wait, so that you only do if you absolutely have to.

studentx
04-06-2009, 10:08 PM
I think it was a good idea, but the timer is too short. 5mins per level would be more reasonable IMO.

You trying to slow my roll? :D

Borror0
04-06-2009, 10:10 PM
agreed, make it happen but make it painful to wait, so that you only do if you absolutely have to.
"You were hit with 8 negative levels."

If you really want to increase it, two or three minutes seems the maximum reasonable amount. Other than being helpful for smaller groups, it also serves as a way to reduce the annoyance for cleric when someone is hit with only one or two levels. Like that, they can wait while still bearing a penalty for a while.

sephiroth1084
04-06-2009, 10:33 PM
I think it was a good idea, but the timer is too short. 5mins per level would be more reasonable IMO.

Exactly what I was thinking.

As for stat damage...I say just make it possible to drink potions even at 0 Str and get rid of the regen.

Lithic
04-06-2009, 10:36 PM
"You were hit with 8 negative levels."

If you really want to increase it, two or three minutes seems the maximum reasonable amount. Other than being helpful for smaller groups, it also serves as a way to reduce the annoyance for cleric when someone is hit with only one or two levels. Like that, they can wait while still bearing a penalty for a while.

Making the time long means people WONT wait around for 8 levels to come back if it is at all possible. 2mins means your example leads to the cleric saying "i dont want to waste the SP, sit tight they will go away".

Such regen should really be aimed at lowbies who can't get rid of them. They occasionally get neg leveled by wights, and it can be devastating at lvl 3, but such levels are never more than 1 or 2 in number. Once you start hitting casters with enervation and beholders you should NOT be encouraged to sit around waiting.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 10:36 PM
I think it was a good idea, but the timer is too short. 5mins per level would be more reasonable IMO.

That would actually be terrible I think.

If you have 5 negative levels... it'll already take 10 minutes.

Why would you want it to take longer? Normal strategy now is to drag a creature near a rezz shrine and let it kill you.

Is that any more in character?

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 10:40 PM
in this game, in a good party even 1 minute feels like forever. I think they hit the times just right. Long enough to encourage players to cure it, but short enough to discourage shrine suicide

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 10:40 PM
Making the time long means people WONT wait around for 8 levels to come back if it is at all possible. 2mins means your example leads to the cleric saying "i dont want to waste the SP, sit tight they will go away".

Such regen should really be aimed at lowbies who can't get rid of them. They occasionally get neg leveled by wights, and it can be devastating at lvl 3, but such levels are never more than 1 or 2 in number. Once you start hitting casters with enervation and beholders you should be encouraged to sit around waiting.

No thx

Borror0
04-06-2009, 10:50 PM
Making the time long means people WONT wait around for 8 levels to come back if it is at all possible.
Why?

2mins means your example leads to the cleric saying "i dont want to waste the SP, sit tight they will go away".
If it's more efficient that way, why not? Why would that be a bad thing?

Once you start hitting casters with enervation and beholders you should be encouraged to sit around waiting.
Why?

Zenako
04-06-2009, 10:56 PM
Sure, party is gonna wait around for 8 minutes while all the other buffs expire, just to save a few SP to avoid one Greater Restore...NOT.

As some mentioned, only really changes the situation for underleveled types who get level drained with no restoration ability, or soloists who get hammered to a 0 stat. CHA Casters in Von2 who mess up and take CHA damage from the spiders for example. I once had a lowbie running Redfang and took poison damage and did not see how much until I tried to drink a pot and could not, since I could still move. Was at 0 str and could do nothing but recall.

Samadhi
04-06-2009, 10:58 PM
I would like to hear both arguments, from both sides on this one. I don't understand it either...yet.

my read is the intent is to prevent us from enervating stoned mobs and leaving them there (plus obviously part of the w/p nerf) and they could care less about us curing ourselves easier.

Lithic
04-06-2009, 11:02 PM
Why?

If it's more efficient that way, why not?
Because waiting around is BORING. If the timer is longer, then fewer people will try to wait it out when they can expend resources to do something about neg levels.


Why would that be a bad thing?


Why?


The third one you quoted was a typo, should have read "you should NOT be encouraged to sit around"

Newtons_Apple
04-06-2009, 11:04 PM
As stated many times in the past, and what will be stated many times in the future....

DDO is not D&D

One is played with pixels and on a computer...

the other is played with pencil, papers, books, etc.....


Some things are bound to be different.

I'm not sure what Pen and Paper has to do with this particular issue. There are already numerous methods in the game right now that allow a player to cure stat damage and neg levels, as well as outright prevent them.

Lithic
04-06-2009, 11:04 PM
my read is the intent is to prevent us from enervating stoned mobs and leaving them there (plus obviously part of the w/p nerf) and they could care less about us curing ourselves easier.

OMG tinfoil hat alert.

Junts
04-06-2009, 11:06 PM
its -already- 2 min/1 neg level!!

1 min/1 point on ability damage

Junts
04-06-2009, 11:07 PM
OMG tinfoil hat alert.

this is actually a significant change regarding 'fts enervate 4 times and leave it' tactics and 'w/e and ignore it for the rest of the quest' tactics: if this applies to mobs, the living spells in kobold will go active again every 1 minute .. kind of a big deal, given the most common tactic to beat the quest.

Borror0
04-06-2009, 11:20 PM
Because waiting around is BORING. If the timer is longer, then fewer people will try to wait it out when they can expend resources to do something about neg levels. Do you seriously think I am even going to sit around one minute for one neg level?

No one in their right mind would.

sirgog
04-06-2009, 11:23 PM
Sensible change for players, IMO - no group at high level will ever wait for you to regen (just as no group is ever stupid enough to wait for someone to heal 150hp with a Greensteel regen item).

It means groups can function better without a cleric at mid level, and increases the number of quests in the 7-10 range people will be prepared to do without one.

Lithic
04-06-2009, 11:26 PM
Do you seriously think I am even going to sit around one minute for one neg level?

No one in their right mind would.

you would be surprised... Don't you remember how they took out ring of trollish regen, so people wouldnt sit still for HP? Personally anyone who would want to wait would be left far behind, so even if the timer is left at 2mins, I wont care :D

Borror0
04-06-2009, 11:32 PM
Don't you remember how they took out ring of trollish regen, so people wouldnt sit still for HP?
Since that was before I joined the game, I don't know how effective that was but pre-M4 DDO was much more about resource management than now.

Waiting will the exception rather than the norm.

Personally anyone who would want to wait would be left far behind, so even if the timer is left at 2mins, I wont care :D
I see this as a way to not bother the clerics for a neg level or two, and for clericless parties.

Nick_RC
04-06-2009, 11:39 PM
Dq bracers just became even sexier. I loved em before. Now its just gold.

Mhykke
04-06-2009, 11:45 PM
Dq bracers just became even sexier. I loved em before. Now its just gold.

I still hate em. :)

eonfreon
04-06-2009, 11:46 PM
Since that was before I joined the game, I don't know how effective that was but pre-M4 DDO was much more about resource management than now.

Waiting will the exception rather than the norm.

I see this as a way to not bother the clerics for a neg level or two, and for clericless parties.

Yeah pretty much how I see it. I never bother the cleric for one or two levels anyway unless I knew something was coming up that needed me at full power.
It is kind of a strange change and quite a departure from PnP rules, but none of that bothers me.
Yes, tactics will have to be changed, especially on Living Spells, but that's about the worst of it as far as I can see.
The Ubers are always fully protected anyway.
This will certainly help more casual players and lowbies.
Level Drain will still be a pain but not as debilitating as it was to those who were less geared and had no cleric.

Mindspat
04-07-2009, 12:28 AM
I never would fix one neg level anyway.... 2 or more, sure I'll throw a greater.... As for ability damage.. Lessor Restore comes in pots. If the damage doesnt bother ya, no sweat, till go away, if it does, drink a pot...

I agree.

When I'm on my Cleric I generally laugh at someone if they have a negative level. Seriously, if they don't have at least 4 neg's I'm going to make fun of them in front of everyone. :D

Uska
04-07-2009, 12:34 AM
yeah disapointed in this unrequired change.

Show_me_the_Platinum
04-07-2009, 12:35 AM
While I agree that this change will encourage people to wait... I've been in multiple quests where the party doesn't wait for the cleric until at 1 HP do you think they are going to wait for 4+ ability or 2+ level drain?

BlackSteel
04-07-2009, 06:44 AM
Dq bracers just became even sexier. I loved em before. Now its just gold.

OMG how did I not even think of that. My barb just shat a brick. I'm going to miss the days of running around with 5 neg lvls.

BlackSteel
04-07-2009, 06:46 AM
this is actually a significant change regarding 'fts enervate 4 times and leave it' tactics and 'w/e and ignore it for the rest of the quest' tactics: if this applies to mobs, the living spells in kobold will go active again every 1 minute .. kind of a big deal, given the most common tactic to beat the quest.

plenty of other ways to do it, I've found by far the easiest way is to drop a BB on my cleric and get all the ele and spell aggro and let the party beat on the boss in complete freedom.

they loot and recall, I loot and recall, quest is done, and theres still a room full of mad flame throwing monsters



also if you cant kill a kobold and an efreeti in a minute thats kinda sad

Borror0
04-07-2009, 06:53 AM
I can't believe no one has said it yet: THEY ARE NERFING WF!!!!111:mad:

;)

Nick_RC
04-07-2009, 09:09 AM
OMG how did I not even think of that. My barb just shat a brick. I'm going to miss the days of running around with 5 neg lvls.

;) Money.

Nick_RC
04-07-2009, 09:12 AM
I can't believe no one has said it yet: THEY ARE NERFING WF!!!!111:mad:

;)

Not really. WF + Khopesh = best melee dps. Caster + self healing = best wizards (sorcs - meh depends how you play as the umd makes up for it..)

Personally im not gonna wait around for that anyhow - Im glad they did something to bolster the fleshie races. I liked playing a warforged when they werent in vogue. (well before people figured out how brutal the PA enhancements made you.) Im hoping they arnt just going to be the new dwarf....


N

rimble
04-07-2009, 09:14 AM
I would like to hear both arguments, from both sides on this one. I don't understand it either...yet.

It also seems pretty random to me...but maybe it will appear less so once we see the new content...? Maybe lots of stat/level draining and this is a way to keep Clerics from being truly required in that content.

In general, I think they're doing a pretty good job of avoiding required classes.

sisterjinx
04-07-2009, 09:18 AM
I never would fix one neg level anyway.... 2 or more, sure I'll throw a greater.... As for ability damage.. Lessor Restore comes in pots. If the damage doesnt bother ya, no sweat, till go away, if it does, drink a pot...

Case in point ^

see this already existed anyway.

Borror0
04-07-2009, 09:20 AM
Not really.
I know. I was being silly. Some people tend to overreact, but I am sure you know that.

Emili
04-07-2009, 09:46 AM
Why?

If it's more efficient that way, why not? Why would that be a bad thing?

Why?



What is now:

For a Melee: Typically only time this happens though is when my silver flame ammy and optic nerves run out (I use a visor for wraiths and **** like that). If I'm in group I do not even worry about one neg level on my melee, I'll go shrine it off along the casters regaining sp when I get there... If i am more than 2 levels down I may ask for a greater provided my buff timers are still high... If the girl is 5-8 levels down and those timers are under a minute, well then I'll fight in a blaze of glory till dead. A greater restore is about the same sp (or scroll cost) as a res. For stat damages... I drink potions.

For casters: Neg levels are much more substantially detrimental on a caster... your DC's dropped along with you max mana pool and as you know you tend to have a much less hp then a melee to begin with. I'll ask for a greater sooner. For stat damages I use wands or potions.

What will be:

No change. I am in no way going to sit around a dungeon for five minutes let alone ten or fifteen minutes waiting out a level drain wear off. That's plain selffish... the rest of the party have a game to play (we could be finished or near finished the quest and most people off to the next quest, diner, or droping off the kids for soccer) we do all have real lives too... I can buy back that lesser pot or that greater scroll off the vendor quickly in seconds with play money (plat)... I cannot buy back peoples five minutes. Time is the most important resource not only in DDO but in life.

Show_me_the_Platinum
04-07-2009, 01:17 PM
I can't believe no one has said it yet: THEY ARE NERFING WF!!!!111:mad:

;)

Not quite. WF are still immune to energy drain so they will never get neg leveled. Though that ability only will come into play during a fight where their combat ability wont be reduced (unless by magical or undead touch attack means)

Taking 8 neg levels during a fight with a red named really hurts.

Borror0
04-07-2009, 01:18 PM
Not quite.
That was sarcasm, but I guess that escaped you.

arcsonist
04-07-2009, 01:39 PM
As stated many times in the past, and what will be stated many times in the future....

DDO is not D&D

One is played with pixels and on a computer...

the other is played with pencil, papers, books, etc.....


Some things are bound to be different.

Then why use dungeons and dragons in the begining if your going to use the name be true to the game.

Borror0
04-07-2009, 01:49 PM
Then why use dungeons and dragons in the begining if your going to use the name be true to the game.
It's not because a system is good and popular that there is no way to improve it nor that everything translates well when changing medium.

Nick_RC
04-07-2009, 11:30 PM
I know. I was being silly. Some people tend to overreact, but I am sure you know that.

I knew the sarcasm wsa there;) But theres so much bad information going around i didnt want a omg they nerfing wf thread going about. . Nip that one in the bud:D

Show_me_the_Platinum
04-08-2009, 03:46 PM
That was sarcasm, but I guess that escaped you.

Sarcasm!? On this forum!? Are you nuts!?

Think people should talk about how they should just put in dungeon HP and SP regeneration and finish the job stat and level regeneration started.

muffinlad
04-08-2009, 07:14 PM
Negative Levels and Ability Score Damage: Do we really need another easy button? The change to regeneration of negative levels and ability score damage is yet another easy button for players.. Why depart from D&D rules and change this? It sounds like another easy button added to the game. Any character can just sit there and regenerate instead of drinking a restore pot or going to length to relieve a negative level with this change. I can see it now some pug cleric refusing to restore a melee's negative levels because they will just regenerate them in a few minutes. Let's just reward laziness..

It seems to be that this helps monsters too....I can't just W/P things to helplessness and ignore them, or enervate them down 16 levels and ignore them. Eventually they came back.

I am not so sure that the impact on the party is going to be as drastic as what it will require to do to the enemy.

muffinneg

Ghoste
04-08-2009, 07:19 PM
As stated many times in the past, and what will be stated many times in the future....

DDO is not D&D

One is played with pixels and on a computer...

the other is played with pencil, papers, books, etc.....


Some things are bound to be different.
Not my campaign. I live way out in the middle of nowhere, and online is the only way I can find a PnP group.

DDO is PnP is a lot of house rules.

moonprophet
04-08-2009, 07:23 PM
and to the clerics that don't want to cast spells, I will say what I always have. If you dont want to heal, dont play a cleric. Period. If they make this game any easier, the opening splash screen is just going to say..."You won..game over.". Makes maintaining the rest of the game easier to, because you can just flush it. They are even making STK easier, scaling down the difficulty of EVERY quest if you have a less than full party, ect....

I have another idea. Why not just automaticly reroute everyone over to Wow or LOTRO when they log in. Seems like we are headed in that direction anyways.