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Junts
04-06-2009, 08:01 PM
The logic here I understand, however, there is a material that allows weapons to break dr/good (flametouched iron): why exactly can transmuting weapons not become flametouched iron and break dr/good? Is this an intentional nerf of transmuting, or an oversight regarding the material?

HeavenlyCloud
04-06-2009, 08:03 PM
Well if they change transmuting to only metals it will suck for dr's like bludgeon/slashing and piercing. :o Nice question btw. looking forward to an answer.

Korvek
04-06-2009, 08:04 PM
The logic here I understand, however, there is a material that allows weapons to break dr/good (flametouched iron): why exactly can transmuting weapons not become flametouched iron and break dr/good? Is this an intentional nerf of transmuting, or an oversight regarding the material?

What?

My Transmuter breaks DR/Good...

Transmuting Handwraps don't, but those are the only bugged ones I can think of.

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 08:05 PM
i think the change is to influence the introduction of epic DR

what good is epic DR when everyone playing will just be able to ignore it with their mineral 2's

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:06 PM
What?

My Transmuter breaks DR/Good...
It does at the moment.

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 08:06 PM
What?

My Transmuter breaks DR/Good...

read the release notes

HeavenlyCloud
04-06-2009, 08:06 PM
i think the change is to influence the introduction of epic DR

what good is epic DR when everyone playing will just be able to ignore it with their mineral 2's

You can't bypass epic DR. Same as DR/-

Korvek
04-06-2009, 08:07 PM
read the release notes

Doh. I missed that part. Whoa, that'll be somewhat lame against enemies like Harry and Sully. I might need to make a Mineral II after all...

vyvy3369
04-06-2009, 08:12 PM
That's an interesting potential oversight, but even if they do add it you can probably expect it to bypass only one of them at the same time. From what I recall, this was based off one of the PnP enchantments available that allowed you to physically change your weapon into another type of metal as an action.

Riorik
04-06-2009, 08:12 PM
Seems more like the intention is to drastically alter the landscape for the end game quests. No longer would merely transmutings be the minimum standard since they'd no longer bypass Harry or Sally's DR.

Angelus_dead
04-06-2009, 08:13 PM
The logic here I understand, however, there is a material that allows weapons to break dr/good (flametouched iron): why exactly can transmuting weapons not become flametouched iron and break dr/good? Is this an intentional nerf of transmuting, or an oversight regarding the material?
That looks correct to me.

That is, the "Good" nature of flametouched iron isn't something physical from the metal itself, but the fact that this metal was blessed by a godlike force. Precisely duplicating the molecular structure isn't enough, because it's still "counterfeit".

From a game design view, it's also a good change, because it's wrong for one property to cover so many kinds of monsters. They should avoid creating things that are called "The only weapon you'll ever need".

However: for the sake of rules fidelity, they should probably rename Transmuting into "Metalline"

The other thing they should change: Allow randomly-generated weapons to have both Holy and Transmuting (such as by enabling one of those properties to appear as a suffix).

Kintro
04-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Doh. I missed that part. Whoa, that'll be somewhat lame against enemies like Harry and Sully. I might need to make a Mineral II after all...

Your min 2 is likely going to be holy or good burst anyway so will bypass harry/sully just fine. It's the transmuting/gtr evil outsider bane random loot that won't. We're gradually losing all the useful random loot?

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 08:15 PM
You can't bypass epic DR. Same as DR/-

then why even call it epic?? just have DR/-

Korvek
04-06-2009, 08:17 PM
Your min 2 is likely going to be holy or good burst anyway so will bypass harry/sully just fine. It's the transmuting/gtr evil outsider bane random loot that won't. We're gradually losing all the useful random loot?

Well yes, my comment was based on the fact that I don't have one, and my current transmuters will be far less effective. That's why I said I needed to make one (because it will have the mods needed to bypass the DR in addition to Transmuting).

Korvek
04-06-2009, 08:18 PM
then why even call it epic?? just have DR/-

Because Dr/Epic can be bypassed by Epic-related things. We just aren't there yet (Unless you count those +2 of Greater Banes as Epic even though they currently don't bypass said DR).

jmelanie7
04-06-2009, 08:19 PM
Your min 2 is likely going to be holy or good burst anyway so will bypass harry/sully just fine. It's the transmuting/gtr evil outsider bane random loot that won't. We're gradually losing all the useful random loot?

No, Holy burst silver of greater evil outsider bane will still work :D

Junts
04-06-2009, 08:21 PM
That looks correct to me.

That is, the "Good" nature of flametouched iron isn't something physical from the metal itself, but the fact that this metal was blessed by a godlike force. Precisely duplicating the molecular structure isn't enough, because it's still "counterfeit".

From a game design view, it's also a good change, because it's wrong for one property to cover so many kinds of monsters. They should avoid creating things that are called "The only weapon you'll ever need".

However: for the sake of rules fidelity, they should probably rename Transmuting into "Metalline"

The other thing they should change: Allow randomly-generated weapons to have both Holy and Transmuting (such as by enabling one of those properties to appear as a suffix).

transmuters of pg just went up a ton, whereas plain transmuters blow, which is unfortunate

and min2 are great, still

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 08:22 PM
Because Dr/Epic can be bypassed by Epic-related things. We just aren't there yet (Unless you count those +2 of Greater Banes as Epic even though they currently don't bypass said DR).

yes i know, but it as previously said that nothing could bypass epic

as transmuters stood, they were working on everything. Its more balanced to restrict them, and do it now, than to say oh you can work on everything, or everything but epic.

cluedout
04-06-2009, 08:22 PM
then why even call it epic?? just have DR/-

correct me if i am wrong but i think that epic DR is bypassed with an epic weapon (+6 or more bunus)

jmelanie7
04-06-2009, 08:24 PM
correct me if i am wrong but i think that epic DR is bypassed with an epic weapon (+6 or more bunus)

Correct. But its not only +6 or better wpns... But +11 or greater TOTAL modifier qualifies as EPIC, as per PnP rules.

Angelus_dead
04-06-2009, 08:27 PM
Correct. But its not only +6 or better wpns... But +11 or greater TOTAL modifier qualifies as EPIC, as per PnP rules.
No, that is not what the D&D rules say.

In reality:
Not every epic weapon can beat epic DR.
Some non-epic weapons can beat epic DR.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 08:27 PM
if you wanna incorporate epic dr make it dr- like orcs and elementals.
DONT NERF TRANSMUTING.

we spent to much time and effort to make mineral 2 weps
and gave up to much to get transmuting grtr bane weapons

xman26
04-06-2009, 08:30 PM
if you wanna incorporate epic dr make it dr- like orcs and elementals.
DONT NERF TRANSMUTING.

we spent to much time and effort to make mineral 2 weps
and gave up to much to get transmuting grtr bane weapons

/signed

Kintro
04-06-2009, 08:32 PM
Well yes, my comment was based on the fact that I don't have one, and my current transmuters will be far less effective. That's why I said I needed to make one (because it will have the mods needed to bypass the DR in addition to Transmuting).

oops, misread, sorry. It's 2:30am .. that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it :p

MrCow
04-06-2009, 08:34 PM
we spent to much time and effort to make mineral 2 weps

Except for Thaarak Hounds, Maruts, and monsters that you fail to penetrate the DR via slash/blunt/pierce, those mineral II weapons will get through the same DR it always has.

gorloch
04-06-2009, 08:41 PM
/unsigned. Actually glad to see this go through and make things a little more challenging.


PIXA

Lorien_the_First_One
04-06-2009, 08:45 PM
Except for Thaarak Hounds, Maruts, and monsters that you fail to penetrate the DR via slash/blunt/pierce, those mineral II weapons will get through the same DR it always has.

No, it won't, that's the point. Transmuting will now only transmute past metal type. This will not be a problem for power gamers that will just make a second or third set of GS, but for those of us who barely can get together one set, its a problem.

Vorn
04-06-2009, 08:46 PM
Doesn't bother me so much...just have to think whether I am going to bother carrying a blunt weapon for liches like Sorjek now or piercer for rakshasa's...I really hate carrying an extra couple of weapons for fairly rare mobs...I'm always forgetting to get them out of the bank.:o

Guess my pally's will carry H.S. warhammers and khopeshes now--kinda wondering if Mord. Disjunct will make them go *poof*.:eek:

Impaqt
04-06-2009, 08:46 PM
No, it won't, that's the point. Transmuting will now only transmute past metal type. This will not be a problem for power gamers that will just make a second or third set of GS, but for those of us who barely can get together one set, its a problem.

Yes, But all Mineral II's are also Good/holy by design.

MrCow
04-06-2009, 08:54 PM
No, it won't, that's the point. Transmuting will now only transmute past metal type.

Mineral II will have the following:


Silver
Byeskh
Cold Iron
Mithril
Adamantine
Evil
Magic


Mineral II may have the following:


Good (usually via Holy or Good Burst)
Blunt
Slashing
Piercing


Mineral II won't have the following:


Law
Chaos
Epic


Still seems rather universal to me.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 08:55 PM
/unsigned. Actually glad to see this go through and make things a little more challenging.


PIXA

the challenging part of the min 2 is making it it takes forever and cost alot .....also the devs said the new mod 9 will not leverage the crafting we have already done inside the shroud ....with that said they flat out lied to us.

with shroud wepons the huge cost is makiong them that is the challenge the reward is the benefit . now they are taking away the benifit . THAT IS WRONG.

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 08:55 PM
But the mineral II actually won't bypass devil dr if you didn't put holy or pure good damage on it.

Not sure why you wouldn't... but you might have. Those people get completely boned out of 24 larges...

And without a deconstruction system..

bobbryan2
04-06-2009, 08:56 PM
/unsigned. Actually glad to see this go through and make things a little more challenging.


PIXA

Doesn't really make the game more challenging...

Just makes transmuting of pure good prices skyrocket and demolish transmuting of anything else.

SableShadow
04-06-2009, 08:59 PM
Doesn't really make the game more challenging...

Just makes transmuting of pure good prices skyrocket and demolish transmuting of anything else.

Pretty much got done telling my roomie the same thing. :)

So...Dust II looking more and more attractive.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:04 PM
As somoone already pointed out, STRAIGHT OUT LIEING TO US! The DEVS have a history of lieing to us. Saying they wont do something only to do it anyways. Proper payback in my view would be to VOTE BIOWARE at escapeartist. Screw the DEVS, Screw TURBINE for screwing over its customer base at every single turn they get a chance to.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-06-2009, 09:05 PM
Mineral II will have the following:


Silver
Byeskh
Cold Iron
Mithril
Adamantine
Evil
Magic


Mineral II may have the following:


Good (usually via Holy or Good Burst)
Blunt
Slashing
Piercing


Mineral II won't have the following:


Law
Chaos
Epic


Still seems rather universal to me.

Assuming the description is correct, nothing on your "may" list will be on transmuting.

Uska
04-06-2009, 09:06 PM
Greeensteel needs to be nerfed back into the stone age, its the worse thing they have ever done to the game. followed by enhancements and other power escalation.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:07 PM
Assuming the description is correct, nothing on your "may" list will be on transmuting.

Given most of MIN2 weapons are acid/good burst or holy/acid burst, it will have the first one.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:09 PM
Greeensteel needs to be nerfed back into the stone age, its the worse thing they have ever done to the game. followed by enhancements and other power escalation.

Totally disagree. It is the only thing that helps the casual gamer compete with the vast majotiry of the power gamers in this game.

Casual gamer = 10hr or less play time/week
Power Gamer = 15 or more hours per week.

And this game has a population of roughly 90% power gamers.

Junts
04-06-2009, 09:10 PM
No, it won't, that's the point. Transmuting will now only transmute past metal type. This will not be a problem for power gamers that will just make a second or third set of GS, but for those of us who barely can get together one set, its a problem.


hi

mineral weapons have a positive first or 2nd tier: this is almost always holy or good burst

that will break the good part of dr: the transmuting will do the material


min2 weapons were not effected by this at all as they relate to devils etc: only lawful/chaotic/evil drs, and people who use their minerals to beat the snot out of skeletons (like me) are affected.

if you have a min2, it is fine for most of what oyu used it for, ie, shroud/vod/new pitfiend beating.

Junts
04-06-2009, 09:12 PM
Assuming the description is correct, nothing on your "may" list will be on transmuting.


transmuting of pure good .. .transmuting sword .. transmuting mace .. transmuting rapier


the other weapon properties are still present.



also, more power to the transmuting flametouched iron khopesh of greater evil outsider bane!

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:12 PM
Why do the devs hate the casual gamer so much?
Why do the devs lie to us?
Why does Turbine ignore its customer base?
Why do the devs have to always nerf everything they can think of?
Why do the devs do stupid stuff without ever thinking it thru?

noilli
04-06-2009, 09:13 PM
Thanks for making it clear what you're *****ing about!

BigBadBarry
04-06-2009, 09:13 PM
Totally disagree. It is the only thing that helps the casual gamer compete with the vast majotiry of the power gamers in this game.

It's a competition?

Who knew eh...

Korvek
04-06-2009, 09:14 PM
why Do The Devs Hate The Casual Gamer So Much?
Why Do The Devs Lie To Us?
Why Does Turbine Ignore Its Customer Base?
Why Do The Devs Have To Always Nerf Everything They Can Think Of?
Why Do The Devs Do Stupid Stuff Without Ever Thinking It Thru?

42.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 09:16 PM
42.
Belgium, man, Belgium!

oberon131313
04-06-2009, 09:16 PM
Totally disagree. It is the only thing that helps the casual gamer compete with the vast majotiry of the power gamers in this game.

Casual gamer = 10hr or less play time/week
Power Gamer = 15 or more hours per week.

And this game has a population of roughly 90% power gamers.

Where are you getting those numbers as definitions from? I consider myself as a casual gamer and get 1-2 hours per weeknight and anywhere between 2-10 hours on the weekends. Based on this I could fall under the power gamer catagory, but the fact that I *just* last night got tiers 1 and 2 done on my first greensteel weapon puts me under the casual gamer catagory.

dragonofsteel2
04-06-2009, 09:16 PM
I thought transmutting was to powerful, but what this really does makes hard for anyone lvling toons to get the right weapons to fight harry now. Undead killer is easy enough to make blunt holy holy holy. So it going to be real ugly watching pugs try beating the shroud at lvls 14-17. I do not like this for one reason there no way to remake weapons if rather go different way now. Kills transmutting weapons they will be **** now, need lower the lvls it adds to weapon and take it off the prefix. Otherwise all a transmutting weapons are garbage in the must cases, how many critters have metal type bypasses only?

Impaqt
04-06-2009, 09:16 PM
As somoone already pointed out, STRAIGHT OUT LIEING TO US! The DEVS have a history of lieing to us. Saying they wont do something only to do it anyways. Proper payback in my view would be to VOTE BIOWARE at escapeartist. Screw the DEVS, Screw TURBINE for screwing over its customer base at every single turn they get a chance to.

When exactly did the devs say Transmuting would never change? I dont ever remeber it even coming up in conversation....

Arkat
04-06-2009, 09:17 PM
Fluffy Quaker Parrots! That's why!

Aeneas
04-06-2009, 09:19 PM
The casual gamer is better off with W/P gone. A truly casual gamer could never afford one previously.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:20 PM
When exactly did the devs say Transmuting would never change? I dont ever remeber it even coming up in conversation....


How about NO MAJOR CHANGES TO THE SHROUD CRAFTING SYSTEM? The changes they have made are major and have made those of us with little time to play and have just finished tier3 or tier3x2 items totally worthless and those alot of wasted time spent making them.

Humperdink
04-06-2009, 09:21 PM
I thought transmutting was to powerful, but what this really does makes hard for anyone lvling toons to get the right weapons to fight harry now. Undead killer is easy enough to make blunt holy holy holy. So it going to be real ugly watching pugs try beating the shroud at lvls 14-17. I do not like this for one reason there no way to remake weapons if rather go different way now. Kills transmutting weapons they will be **** now, need lower the lvls it adds to weapon and take it off the prefix. Otherwise all a transmutting weapons are garbage in the must cases, how many critters have metal type bypasses only?

It means regular transmuting will go in garbage cans. Transmuting of Pure Good will be driven way up in price so the average gamer who needs one won't be able to afford it. All the power gamers will just use Min II and move on, maybe fill in the few gaps with specific weapons as needed. Widens the gap even more between power and casual gamer. Great move. Not.

MrCow
04-06-2009, 09:21 PM
min2 weapons were not effected by this at all as they relate to devils etc: only lawful/chaotic/evil drs

Greensteel is innately evil. It will pass the DR of Ghaele/Bralani.

Impaqt
04-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Why do the devs hate the casual gamer so much?

Huh? Pretty much all the changes I saw really help the casual Gamer....


Why do the devs lie to us?

What did They lie about?


Why does Turbine ignore its customer base?

In what regard? Seems amny changes that were made were in response to many folks asking for the situation to be balacned..... although not what iwouldof done in many cases, I can see why they did what they did.


Why do the devs have to always nerf everything they can think of?

Oh, I'm sure they coudl think of much more stuff to balance or change....


Why do the devs do stupid stuff without ever thinking it thru?

Like? Just because they didnt consult you personally doesnt mean the change didnt get thunk about.

Hendrik
04-06-2009, 09:22 PM
I like cookies.
:D

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:22 PM
It's a competition?

Who knew eh...

When the DEVS constantly **** with the game design to make it harder for the power gamer, it makes it greatly harder for us casual gamers to want to stay in the game as it makes it even harder for us to do damage, get items, finish crafting.

QuantumFX
04-06-2009, 09:23 PM
The logic here I understand, however, there is a material that allows weapons to break dr/good (flametouched iron): why exactly can transmuting weapons not become flametouched iron and break dr/good? Is this an intentional nerf of transmuting, or an oversight regarding the material?

I think it's a coding issue. The Transmutating ability currently just adds a bunch of DR bypasses to the weapon and they all stack. So, in order to mimic the flametouched iron or greensteel abilities to bypass DR Good/Evil they would have to add in weapon type Good, Weapon type evil and then we would be back to square one because it would then bypass DR Good + Silver or Evil + Cold Iron.

Ghaldar
04-06-2009, 09:23 PM
No, it won't, that's the point. Transmuting will now only transmute past metal type. This will not be a problem for power gamers that will just make a second or third set of GS, but for those of us who barely can get together one set, its a problem.

You do realize that MIN II will can have holy or good on it depending how its crafted + trans for the silver and you still have your pit fiend beater.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 09:27 PM
Totally disagree. It is the only thing that helps the casual gamer compete with the vast majotiry of the power gamers in this game.

Casual gamer = 10hr or less play time/week
Power Gamer = 15 or more hours per week.

And this game has a population of roughly 90% power gamers.

What are the 10-15hr a week players called?

Cower? Pasual? Caswersual!

MrCow
04-06-2009, 09:27 PM
how many critters have metal type bypasses only?

I am going to try my best at this from memory for metal-only DR bypasses (aka, I will forget a few).

Adamantine:

Iron Golems
Flesh Golems
Stone Golems
Various Adamantine Defenders


Byeshk:

Mind Flayers


Cold Iron:

Bralani
Ghaele


Mithril:

Stormreaver


Silver:

Bearded Devils
Orthons
Vampires


Some named monsters of said monster races possess more complex DR, such as the vampire in The Shadow Crypt (Magic, Adamantine, Silver).

Aspenor
04-06-2009, 09:27 PM
nvm

wiglin
04-06-2009, 09:29 PM
I like the change.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:30 PM
Huh? Pretty much all the changes I saw really help the casual Gamer....

Not in anyway shape or form. Nerf of transmutting makes it hard for us casual gamers to fight sorjerk amoung many baddies in this game. Concider the fact that the loot system is so screwed in this game, GS and transmuters are the only thing to allow balance for the casual gamer.


What did They lie about?

Answered in other thread.


In what regard? Seems amny changes that were made were in response to many folks asking for the situation to be balacned..... although not what iwouldof done in many cases, I can see why they did what they did.

Changes made by, surprise, the power gamer because they want it harder. You want it harder, dont use your GS, dont use your DT armour, dont use anything high end that casual gamers might see 1 of in a years time. I've been playing for 2+ years and still have not pulled a Bloodstone, Chaos Gaurd, Planar Girdil or icy rainments.


Oh, I'm sure they coudl think of much more stuff to balance or change....

Nah, screwing the casual gamer is much more fun for them. The sooner they can kill of this game, the happier they'll be.


Like? Just because they didnt consult you personally doesnt mean the change didnt get thunk about.

No, because they simply never think of what the overall affect of their changes will have those of us with limited time to play.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:33 PM
I like the change.


Spoken like a power gamer who wants things made harder.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 09:33 PM
Bottom Line Is It Should Not Be Nerfed And Yes I Will Vote Not For Turbine In The March Meyhem Thing


/sighned Do Not Nerf Shroud Items They Are Powerful Because They Are Supposed To Be. Thats Why It Is Called Crafting.

Impaqt
04-06-2009, 09:35 PM
Not in anyway shape or form. Nerf of transmutting makes it hard for us casual gamers to fight sorjerk amoung many baddies in this game. Concider the fact that the loot system is so screwed in this game, GS and transmuters are the only thing to allow balance for the casual gamer.




Sorjek? The Lich? Liches only need magic+Bludgening to break DR..... You dotn have a +1 Holy Mace?

Inspire
04-06-2009, 09:36 PM
I like this change alot because it makes alot of sense... even though I have invested heavily into Serrulae's for my tactic based/oriented characters.

SimVerg
04-06-2009, 09:39 PM
Huh? Pretty much all the changes I saw really help the casual Gamer....


The transmuting nerf is probably one of the most significant hits to casual gamers in quite some time. A +4 or +5 transmuter was behind a min 2, but not by that much. Now, there is no substitute for min 2/silver or transmuting of pg(which is fairly rare and expensive already, will be getting even more so now) and barring some other change to boss devil dr, makes taking pug melees into Shroud/Vod/the new raid an even riskier proposition.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 09:39 PM
When exactly did the devs say Transmuting would never change? I dont ever remeber it even coming up in conversation....

IN A RELEASE NOT WHEN sos CAME OUT THE DEVS SAID THE SHROUD CRAFTING SYSTEM WILL NOT BE LEVERAGED WITH THE RELEASE OF MOD 9 BASED SOLEY ON THE AMOUT OF EFFORT PLAYERS PUTINTO MAKING THEM.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 09:41 PM
I like this change alot because it makes alot of sense... even though I have invested heavily into Serrulae's for my tactic based/oriented characters.

how does this make sense pls tell me this ought to be good ./sarcasm

Elsiah
04-06-2009, 09:42 PM
As a casual gamer who has been playing since release, i can't say that i'm too upset. I don't have and have never had a W/P weapon, and have been kicked out of groups and mocked for not owning one. Not that i personally give a ****, but that attitude is what makes casual gamers not want to play, instead of changes made tot he game that make sense. I have yet to catch turbine in a lie, and any perceived nerfs (i don't see the transmuting changes as being a nerf as much as a redefinition that makes more sense) are worth the new quests and areas, prestige enhancements, four levels to play, and all the rest. Because for me, it's about having a good time playing a game i enjoy, as opposed to being "elite" and having to have all the best toys.

and i belong to an elite guild, mind you, full of people that love to beat new challenges and find new ways to thrive, instead of whining about it and calling people names.

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 09:43 PM
a +5 holy bludgen weapon is just slightly behind a mineral 2 slasher, if you're not seeing the acid dice. And when you factor in the DR, the non GS actually wins.

If you're really anal about doing the most damage possible, then simply craft a triple positive or radiance item liches. triple positive is cheap enough. Radiance isnt, but you would see a tad more damage with it.

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 09:46 PM
Totally disagree. It is the only thing that helps the casual gamer compete with the vast majotiry of the power gamers in this game.

Casual gamer = 10hr or less play time/week
Power Gamer = 15 or more hours per week.

And this game has a population of roughly 90% power gamers.

Where are you getting your #s from. They said on the news a few months back that one of the alarming issues with MMOs is the AVERAGE player plays 30+hrs a week. Not a power gammer but the AVERAGE player. And that hardcore people play 60-80hrs a week.

Inspire
04-06-2009, 09:51 PM
IN A RELEASE NOT WHEN sos CAME OUT THE DEVS SAID THE SHROUD CRAFTING SYSTEM WILL NOT BE LEVERAGED WITH THE RELEASE OF MOD 9 BASED SOLEY ON THE AMOUT OF EFFORT PLAYERS PUTINTO MAKING THEM.

For the record, this affects all transmuting weapons not just Greensteel crafted Mineral(2)s.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 09:52 PM
IN A RELEASE NOT WHEN sos CAME OUT THE DEVS SAID THE SHROUD CRAFTING SYSTEM WILL NOT BE LEVERAGED WITH THE RELEASE OF MOD 9 BASED SOLEY ON THE AMOUT OF EFFORT PLAYERS PUTINTO MAKING THEM.

Your use of Caps makes it easier to disregard you as a Berk.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:53 PM
Where are you getting your #s from. They said on the news a few months back that one of the alarming issues with MMOs is the AVERAGE player plays 30+hrs a week. Not a power gammer but the AVERAGE player. And that hardcore people play 60-80hrs a week.


Average Asain player, sure I can believe that. American, I seriously have my doubts.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 09:53 PM
For the record, this affects all transmuting weapons not just Greensteel crafted Mineral(2)s.

i know but i can understand noemal loot nerf but raidgear and crafted items should not be subject to such things

MrCow
04-06-2009, 09:54 PM
Now, there is no substitute for min 2/silver or transmuting of pg(which is fairly rare and expensive already, will be getting even more so now) and barring some other change to boss devil dr, makes taking pug melees into Shroud/Vod/the new raid an even riskier proposition.

People seemed to do fine before transmuting was even in DDO (Flesh Renders/Ice Flensers/Fire Reavers from Elite Invaders runs). I'm sure they will find plenty of ways to adapt. Also, given the cap being increased by 4 levels, survivability and resource pools will go up making the Shroud/VoD problems lessened.

xman26
04-06-2009, 09:56 PM
Sorjek? The Lich? Liches only need magic+Bludgening to break DR..... You dotn have a +1 Holy Mace?


No, and you can add it to the list of things I never see. Loot tables being as fubar'd as they are.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 09:56 PM
Your use of Caps makes it easier to disregard you as a Berk.

cap or no caps writting is writing .....and what is a berk?

Aesop
04-06-2009, 09:58 PM
I would perfer this if it included Bludgeoning/Slashing/Piercing


but that's mostly for selfish reasons. I typically have a characters with signature weapons. Longsword, Short Swords, Q Staff, Great Sword etc... I'd perfer not having to build multiple Min II weapons honestly.

Aesop

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 09:58 PM
cap or no caps writting is writing .....and what is a berk?

That is like saying "Yelling is talking"

Berk... JFGI.

secondchance
04-06-2009, 09:59 PM
I think most knew the wop change was comming ..... the min 2 / trasmuting change well I bet it wasn't suposed to effect the damage type (ie slash ect..)

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:00 PM
Average Asain player, sure I can believe that. American, I seriously have my doubts.

Never played WOW or AoC did you? Because the major raid guilds there usually required you to raid with them at least 6hrs a night at least 6 nights a week. And that is not play time that is just raid time.

ArkoHighStar
04-06-2009, 10:01 PM
I am sorry but this change right here is the casual gamers dream


Normal, Hard, and Elite dungeons (not solo or raid) will now scale their difficulty based on the party to help "smaller" parties. Players and hirelings will contribute to the overall strength of the party and therefore the difficulty of the dungeon.


This means short manned parties will face an easier dungeon than a full party, which means those who play with 1 or 2 friends can easily level, it also means that many loot runs will now be short manned outside of raids.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 10:01 PM
I would perfer this if it included Bludgeoning/Slashing/Piercing


but that's mostly for selfish reasons. I typically have a characters with signature weapons. Longsword, Short Swords, Q Staff, Great Sword etc... I'd perfer not having to build multiple Min II weapons honestly.

Aesop

Yep, that will be a bit of a grind.

But hey, to quote someone's sig whose opinions I have usually thought were pretty spot on.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:04 PM
No, and you can add it to the list of things I never see. Loot tables being as fubar'd as they are.

Dude what level are you. Pretty much every character has a holy weapon for delaris. I mean seriously, a +1 holy mace is what about 10K on the AH. Well actually it's probably at the weapon vendor for less than that.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 10:05 PM
The logic here I understand, however, there is a material that allows weapons to break dr/good (flametouched iron): why exactly can transmuting weapons not become flametouched iron and break dr/good? Is this an intentional nerf of transmuting, or an oversight regarding the material?

if that is the case then why did transmuting for min2 have slicing as an added effect. they knew and wanted it to bypass all dr bypassable and added slicind to it even if the wepon is not a slashing wep. to me that says that the property of transmuting can alter its physical form for the purpose of slashing and becoming bludeoning and piercing nd slashing wepons

Aesop
04-06-2009, 10:07 PM
Yep, that will be a bit of a grind.

But hey, to quote someone's sig whose opinions I have usually thought were pretty spot on.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

I appreciate that... but I still would be more comfortable with the change with the damage types included in Transmuting... I understand why not and all that jazz... but I would perfer it.

I don't grind and in fact grinds make me take extended (sometimes permanent)breaks from a game. I've played a lot of MMOs and every time it is the Grind that chases me away. I actually like this game and really don't want to take a permanent break... but as I haven't logged in for morethan 20 min in two months ... it may be coming ... which makes me a sad Panda

Aesop

Samadhi
04-06-2009, 10:08 PM
if you wanna incorporate epic dr make it dr- like orcs and elementals.
DONT NERF TRANSMUTING.

we spent to much time and effort to make mineral 2 weps
and gave up to much to get transmuting grtr bane weapons

although i do agree with you - what about those that gave up for w/p's?

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:08 PM
Dude what level are you. Pretty much every character has a holy weapon for delaris.
Exactly, that really cool club.

stockwizard5
04-06-2009, 10:09 PM
I am interested in seeing if (for example) a Mineral II Maul will bypass Undead DR? We know that Transmuters don't really use the weapon type but mearly the first attribute off the list. Given this change - I would think this really needs to be fixed?

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:12 PM
then why even call it epic?? just have DR/-

Because youn can bypass epic DR with a +6 weapon

MrCow
04-06-2009, 10:12 PM
I am interested in seeing if (for example) a Mineral II Maul will bypass Undead DR?

That remains to be seen, but said Mineral II Maul will have problems bypassing Wheep DR (piercing). Try not to use wheeps for testing with said weapon. :)

xman26
04-06-2009, 10:15 PM
Dude what level are you. Pretty much every character has a holy weapon for delaris. I mean seriously, a +1 holy mace is what about 10K on the AH. Well actually it's probably at the weapon vendor for less than that.


4 capped toons. Maces, mauls and clubs I do get, but they never have holy and almost always have something a cleric or a caster can use.

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:18 PM
4 capped toons. Maces, mauls and clubs I do get, but they never have holy and almost always have something a cleric or a caster can use.

Well if you are being serious I wish you were on argo. I would send you an I'm sorry about your luck holy mace. I have one that I think is like level 4 or 5.

MrCow
04-06-2009, 10:18 PM
4 capped toons. Maces, mauls and clubs I do get, but they never have holy and almost always have something a cleric or a caster can use.

I have resorted to using a +3 Spell Penetration VII Scepter and a +1 Transmuting Light Hammer of Weighted to hit Sor'jek (lich form) before because the character in question didn't have anything better at the time. It wasn't fantastic, but it was something.

sephiroth1084
04-06-2009, 10:20 PM
On the fence about this one. If they added a 6th backpack slot, it'd soften the blow a bit. As it stands, it will mean that most players will want to have a transmuting x of pure good of each of slashing, piercing and bludgeoning probably. That kind of sucks. On the other hand, transmuters were definitely too dominating in their utility.

Maybe grant a special property to bane weapons that allows them to bypass the DR of their assigned enemies?

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:20 PM
I have resorted to using a +3 Spell Penetration VII Scepter and a +1 Transmuting Light Hammer of Weighted to hit Sor'jek (lich form) before because the character in question didn't have anything better at the time. It wasn't fantastic, but it was something.

You can make a +5 holy /good tier 2 shroud blunt weapon in less than a day including vale stones.

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 10:20 PM
although i do agree with you - what about those that gave up for w/p's?

i do also think wop nerf is abit to much nerf but at the same time they added con damage to the feat slicing blow so if you wield wops and slicing blow you will be doing auto crits in about 1 round of combat and the all crits so that is still very powerful.
my main argument is 2 things this is raid loot /crafting which should never be nerfed unless something is inately wrong with the way it works and is meant to work . this cannot be said with min 2 weps if that is the case then why did transmuting for min2 have slicing as an added effect. they knew and wanted it to bypass all dr bypassable and added slicing to it even if the weapon is not a slashing wep. to me that says that the property of transmuting can alter its physical form for the purpose of slashing and becoming bludeoning and piercing wepons

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 10:22 PM
On the fence about this one. If they added a 6th backpack slot, it'd soften the blow a bit. As it stands, it will mean that most players will want to have a transmuting x of pure good of each of slashing, piercing and bludgeoning probably. That kind of sucks. On the other hand, transmuters were definitely too dominating in their utility.

Maybe grant a special property to bane weapons that allows them to bypass the DR of their assigned enemies?

not a bad idea my friend

Auran82
04-06-2009, 10:22 PM
4 capped toons. Maces, mauls and clubs I do get, but they never have holy and almost always have something a cleric or a caster can use.

If you seem to have an inability to find a holy or pure good blunt weapon in chests, end rewards (which I'm sure many have turned up that you simply ignored and took the more expensive item to sell to the vendors) and in house D or on the AH, that isn't really our issue.

Having one item type to bypass all DR always seemed stupid to me, but at the same time, the game seems to have been balanced around us having access to the old type of transmuters.

sephiroth1084
04-06-2009, 10:23 PM
Think this was made after they realized that the "bypasses Good DR" portion of the paladin capstone was mostly useless?

MrCow
04-06-2009, 10:23 PM
You can make a +5 holy /good tier 2 shroud weapon in less than a day including vale stones.

In the heat of the moment with a recently released quest sometimes there is little you can do when you realize every weapon you have is slashing or piercing, with the exception of a light hammer and some vendor-fodder scepter you looted 3 chests ago. :p

vtecfiend99
04-06-2009, 10:25 PM
This angers me more than the W/P nerf. At least that can SORT OF be justified.


Thanks for wasting months of my time grinding out min2 weapons to save inventory space Turbine.

Worst decision EVER.


New players leveling for the first time are going to be EVEN MORE disadvantaged also.

Inventory overflowing with even MORE stuff now, wasted time.


terrible. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE rethink this

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:25 PM
In the heat of the moment with a recently released quest sometimes there is little you can do when you realize every weapon you have is slashing or piercing, with the exception of a light hammer and some vendor-fodder scepter you looted 3 chests ago. :p

I guess I can buy that.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:27 PM
In the heat of the moment with a recently released quest sometimes there is little you can do when you realize every weapon you have is slashing or piercing
A good transmuter will solve that problem.

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:29 PM
It helps new players. Now they are no longer months behind you in weapons. They can pull the new named raid weapons just like you. This does not hurt new people or causals. Just people who spent months getting it and are upset they no longer are way ahead of everyone else.

valorik
04-06-2009, 10:30 PM
This angers me more than the W/P nerf. At least that can SORT OF be justified.


Thanks for wasting months of my time grinding out min2 weapons to save inventory space Turbine.

Worst decision EVER.


New players leveling for the first time are going to be EVEN MORE disadvantaged also.

Inventory overflowing with even MORE stuff now, wasted time.


terrible. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE rethink this

not that bad, if you have holy or good burst on your mineral 2 you're in good shape except for tharaak hounds, maruts, adn a few other non- good/metal based dr guys

Lithic
04-06-2009, 10:33 PM
not that bad, if you have holy or good burst on your mineral 2 you're in good shape except for tharaak hounds, maruts, adn a few other non- good/metal based dr guys

The biggest problem is liches with DR bludgeoning. I see many holy/good burst/good blast maces in the near future.

Helmet
04-06-2009, 10:33 PM
i traded a complete tome set for a transmuting dwarf axe of greater undead bane.
now it is completely worthless. awesome.

xman26
04-06-2009, 10:34 PM
it Helps New Players. Now They Are No Longer Months Behind You In Weapons. They Can Pull The New Named Raid Weapons Just Like You. This Does Not Hurt New People Or Causals. Just People Who Spent Months Getting It And Are Upset They No Longer Are Way Ahead Of Everyone Else.


Like Hell It Doesn"t Hurt Casual Gamers!

FluffyCalico
04-06-2009, 10:34 PM
The biggest problem is liches with DR bludgeoning. I see many holy/good burst/good blast maces in the near future.

A blunt radiance II might be on the menu for undead

Brigadoom
04-06-2009, 10:35 PM
Where are you getting those numbers as definitions from? I consider myself as a casual gamer and get 1-2 hours per weeknight and anywhere between 2-10 hours on the weekends. Based on this I could fall under the power gamer catagory, but the fact that I *just* last night got tiers 1 and 2 done on my first greensteel weapon puts me under the casual gamer catagory.

All I have to say is Lol...
if shroud was not implemented into the game, do you really think DDO would be as populated as it is now?

Besides, doesn't it make sense for the person who uses the content more, to get his problems addressed first? Green Steel allows power gamers to have a reward for working past level 16, and just because you slow boat your self there and on equipping your toon, doesn't mean the power gamers should have to wait up for you

dragonofsteel2
04-06-2009, 10:36 PM
It helps new players. Now they are no longer months behind you in weapons. They can pull the new named raid weapons just like you. This does not hurt new people or causals. Just people who spent months getting it and are upset they no longer are way ahead of everyone else.

I really do not see how this hurts power gamers, but if think does good for u. I have two min. II they not worthless still work against the majority of mobs. Second it was easy enough before for casual gamer to get transmuting weapon do decide damage in there before, now they have to find one with pure good or holy silver something weapon, guessing these items might be little harder to get then a transmutter ). This to me was more of move to help them make new challenges were they require u to get new weapons and gear to do great damage ). Who really cares about the hound not like that hard to kill anyway once them little puppies do there work.

MrCow
04-06-2009, 10:36 PM
The biggest problem is liches with DR bludgeoning. I see many holy/good burst/good blast maces in the near future.

Those of us who made Mauls way back in Module 6 (because there were no Greataxes) are probably enjoying this one. ;)

BlackSteel
04-06-2009, 10:36 PM
the only mobs that it really impacts will be undead with blunt. As the above mentioned mobs either have **** for HP or only appear in lower level content. I mean when was the last time you saw a marut? And hounds? I like to guess whether I'll 2 shot or 3 shot hounds.

with the revamp of abbott, our last addition of a sorjek, and the future promise of dracoliches: these will be more of an issue than hounds or maruts. But they're also cheaply fixed. You can craft a +++ maul or warhammer, or a radiance maul or warhammer, and do a good deal more damage than your mineral 2.

vtecfiend99
04-06-2009, 10:39 PM
not that bad, if you have holy or good burst on your mineral 2 you're in good shape except for tharaak hounds, maruts, adn a few other non- good/metal based dr guys

It IS bad, the only thing transmuting ever did was save us some inventory slots. Now we have to pollute our inventory EVEN MORE with weapons to bypass other dr.


And fluffy, if you don't see how a new/ non power gamer is hurt by this let me break it down for you:

Transmuting weapons were a cheap alternative that almost ANY player could afford to bypass DR on big baddies. Now the price of transmuting of PG will skyrocket, the price of holy silver whatever will go even HIGHER and MIN2 weapons will still be hard to get for them.



This pretty much denied an entire section of players from being able to feel effective.


It has NOTHING to do with me wanting to be far ahead of others. I will have no problems purchasing new tems. Not everyone is plat rich though.

xman26
04-06-2009, 10:39 PM
You can make a +5 holy /good tier 2 shroud blunt weapon in less than a day including vale stones.


Sure if you have nothing but time on your hands. I dont, I get roughly 10 hours of game play a week.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:43 PM
Now the price of transmuting of PG will skyrocket
Woo hoo, ToPG, the new WoP!

TrenchcoatJesus
04-06-2009, 10:45 PM
if you wanna incorporate epic dr make it dr- like orcs and elementals.
DONT NERF TRANSMUTING.

we spent to much time and effort to make mineral 2 weps
and gave up to much to get transmuting grtr bane weapons

I don't know how long you've played this, or any other MMO, but did you honestly expect to receive a new module, new content, and expect that all of your current gear would be sufficient?

Are you saying that a new mod forcing you to get new gear, that is, spend time playing the game, is too much of an inconvenience?

That seems to be the biggest argument I've heard of the nay-sayers. That this "penalizes the casual gamer" and "hurts your cash flow" etc. The only thing that this does is requires more investment of your time to get to what you feel your character 'deserves'. The only thing this 'horrible nerf' does is give you a reason to play the game.


/unsigned. Actually glad to see this go through and make things a little more challenging.


PIXA

My thoughts exactly. After reading through the release notes, ALL of them, I have faith that this module is designed to make DDO more playable. More challenging? Perhaps. But given the number of bug fixes, playability fixes, and assorted quest nerfs (such as the STK boss, the Marut's regen in VoN 3, or even the Abbot changes) I'm thinking Turbine is interested in making the game fun to play.

If this "nerf" makes you not want to play the game because playing the game the first time was enough of a chore you'd rather not do it again; I have nothing to say to you except find a game you enjoy playing. I think the rest of us enjoy this one.

-TrenchcoatJesus

MrCow
04-06-2009, 10:45 PM
Woo hoo, ToPG, the new WoP!

Unless you are of non-good alignment with no UMD, then its Holy Silver or Holy Cold Iron.

Newtons_Apple
04-06-2009, 10:48 PM
Why do the devs hate the casual gamer so much?
Why do the devs lie to us?
Why does Turbine ignore its customer base?
Why do the devs have to always nerf everything they can think of?
Why do the devs do stupid stuff without ever thinking it thru?

Somebody please close this thread - he's just repeating the same things he said in another one.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2131972&postcount=13

xman26
04-06-2009, 10:50 PM
Somebody please close this thread - he's just repeating the same things he said in another one.


I did?

Lithic
04-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Unless you are of non-good alignment with no UMD, then its screw you and the chaotic neutral horse you rode in on.

Fixed that for ya MrC :D

sirgog
04-06-2009, 10:54 PM
I'm not looking forward to the new Shroud groups advertising 'must have Mineral 2'.

Because there is NO easy-to-obtain substitute for it now.

Brigadoom
04-06-2009, 10:55 PM
.. assorted quest nerfs (such as the STK boss, the Marut's regen in VoN 3, or even the Abbot changes) I'm thinking Turbine is interested in making the game fun to play.





oh don't get me started about abbot, abbot is perfectly beatable, I do it almost every day, just because it is VERY challenging, does not mean it should be fixed...

That raid was never intended for someone to go in once and come out with raid loot, it was designed to be practiced till the person was proficient. So that the people who spent the time and effort to learn it, got the reward. Just like real life, things don't always come easy, some times you have to work for the things you want.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 10:56 PM
Unless you are of non-good alignment with no UMD, then its Holy Silver or Holy Cold Iron.
No UMD? Gimped, I tell you, gimped!

We don't need a Rind of Evasion, we need a Ring of 20 UMD.

MrCow
04-06-2009, 10:59 PM
Fixed that for ya MrC

You fixed it wrong as I ride cows, not horses. :)


I'm not looking forward to the new Shroud groups advertising 'must have Mineral 2'.

Nor am I, mainly because its one of those "You must run The Shroud to make a Mineral II weapon, but appear to require a Mineral II weapon to run The Shroud" issues.

honkuimushi
04-06-2009, 11:06 PM
I'm also going to go on record as being opposed to this change. My main complaint is that it really hurts people without Min2 weapons aka Casuals. As mentioned, a Min2 will still bypass 80%+ of the bypassable DR in the game. However, regualr Trasmuters will bypass less than 50%.

Making Trasmuting a Prefix with a fairly high + means that most randomly generated trasmuters are either a simple +x Transmuter or a +x Transmuter of some less than ideal suffix like Tendon Slice. The really lucky pulls are those with Pure Good or a Bane effect against something with DR. Transmuters of Pure Good were already expensive, now they're going to be insane.

Basically, Transmuters allowed people who maybe didn't have the perfect weapon for the quest to at least do base damage against a monster with DR and not be reduced to doing 1 or 2d6 damage. I know my use of Transmuters is situational. Most of the time my other weapons with DPS modifiers do more damage. I dread the first shroud runs without someone with Min2 weapons or the Von 3 run with a couple of Paladins.

There are a lot of really cool things in Mod 9, but this change and the Con damage change really **** me off.

xman26
04-06-2009, 11:08 PM
I don't know how long you've played this, or any other MMO, but did you honestly expect to receive a new module, new content, and expect that all of your current gear would be sufficient?

Are you saying that a new mod forcing you to get new gear, that is, spend time playing the game, is too much of an inconvenience?

That seems to be the biggest argument I've heard of the nay-sayers. That this "penalizes the casual gamer" and "hurts your cash flow" etc. The only thing that this does is requires more investment of your time to get to what you feel your character 'deserves'. The only thing this 'horrible nerf' does is give you a reason to play the game.



My thoughts exactly. After reading through the release notes, ALL of them, I have faith that this module is designed to make DDO more playable. More challenging? Perhaps. But given the number of bug fixes, playability fixes, and assorted quest nerfs (such as the STK boss, the Marut's regen in VoN 3, or even the Abbot changes) I'm thinking Turbine is interested in making the game fun to play.

If this "nerf" makes you not want to play the game because playing the game the first time was enough of a chore you'd rather not do it again; I have nothing to say to you except find a game you enjoy playing. I think the rest of us enjoy this one.

-TrenchcoatJesus


You both sound like power gamers.

...v...
04-06-2009, 11:22 PM
If you nerf my transmuters for my rangers, and I have 3 dual weilding them I will not hesitate no cancle my account. I DID NOT SPEND MONTHS OF GRINDING THE SHROUD FOR YOUR DEVELOPERS TO COME ALONG AND RUIN IT!

vtecfiend99
04-06-2009, 11:32 PM
If you nerf my transmuters for my rangers, and I have 3 dual weilding them I will not hesitate no cancle my account. I DID NOT SPEND MONTHS OF GRINDING THE SHROUD FOR YOUR DEVELOPERS TO COME ALONG AND RUIN IT!

Word. Pretty sure if this hits live a lot of people are going to jump ship. That's a **** ton of grinding to ahve yanked out from under you.

vtecfiend99
04-06-2009, 11:35 PM
You fixed it wrong as I ride cows, not horses. :)



Nor am I, mainly because its one of those "You must run The Shroud to make a Mineral II weapon, but appear to require a Mineral II weapon to run The Shroud" issues.

Throw this in the giant bucket of reasons this is one of the most terrible decisions that have been made to date

ducetrae
04-06-2009, 11:44 PM
I don't know how long you've played this, or any other MMO, but did you honestly expect to receive a new module, new content, and expect that all of your current gear would be sufficient?

Are you saying that a new mod forcing you to get new gear, that is, spend time playing the game, is too much of an inconvenience?

That seems to be the biggest argument I've heard of the nay-sayers. That this "penalizes the casual gamer" and "hurts your cash flow" etc. The only thing that this does is requires more investment of your time to get to what you feel your character 'deserves'. The only thing this 'horrible nerf' does is give you a reason to play the game.



My thoughts exactly. After reading through the release notes, ALL of them, I have faith that this module is designed to make DDO more playable. More challenging? Perhaps. But given the number of bug fixes, playability fixes, and assorted quest nerfs (such as the STK boss, the Marut's regen in VoN 3, or even the Abbot changes) I'm thinking Turbine is interested in making the game fun to play.

If this "nerf" makes you not want to play the game because playing the game the first time was enough of a chore you'd rather not do it again; I have nothing to say to you except find a game you enjoy playing. I think the rest of us enjoy this one.

-TrenchcoatJesus
pls believe me there is nothing in the game i need ,and i am looking forward to more challenging quest and new gear that i will have the first day of mod nine just like all the other stuff i have. what i said is make the new quest harder and better not nerf the stuff we have in order to make the new stuff more nerftastic. if they started making making the belt of brute str +3 str leser false life would you think that is right or made madstone boots +1 str +1 con or tharnes goggle no longer give a set bonus you like that idea bards cloak no longer has +6 char but +4 how about that. that said this does not make me or anyone invest more time in fact i just now have to carry more **** stuff in my already filled pack pack for a dumb reason because they nerfed raid loot . cmon give me a break

vtecfiend99
04-06-2009, 11:44 PM
Wow, it looks like the forum police combined a TON of threads into one here. Yay.

vtecfiend99
04-06-2009, 11:54 PM
Not letting this get pawned off to obscurity in the combat section.

xman26
04-06-2009, 11:56 PM
Talk about going back on your word of not screwing with the Shroud Crafting system. This totally kills alot of the grind, time and effort put into making Min2 weapons. Good Grief Devs

vtecfiend99
04-06-2009, 11:57 PM
Talk about going back on your word of not screwing with the Shroud Crafting system. This totally kills alot of the grind, time and effort put into making Min2 weapons. Good Grief Devs, do any of you have brains or is it all mush?

Don't insult, if we all kepp doing that then they won't listen to us and it will just stay the way it is.

xman26
04-07-2009, 12:02 AM
Don't insult, if we all kepp doing that then they won't listen to us and it will just stay the way it is.

I really want to know whats up their, because NO right minded person would have come up with nerfing Transmuters and thought "Hey this is a great idea, lets do it!". Without thinking of what the after affects of such a move might be. Someone somewhere in control was obviously not thinking here.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:05 AM
I hope so, just to cheese off all the whiners.

your brand of posting isn't gonna help things either. Not everyone is whining. You are inciting others to flame.

xman26
04-07-2009, 12:06 AM
I hope so, just to cheese off all the whiners.

I'm sorry, but given my 10 hours or less of play time I have, grinding shroud for ingros, among other quests, make teh time I spend in game rather valuable to me as I'm sure many others like me. The nerf really kills all the time and effort put into making my Min2s(3).

Vendra
04-07-2009, 12:06 AM
I had to go back and read the PnP version of transmuting before I commented on this. Per the pnp rules a transmuter would indeed bypass epic damage after it was atuned to creature. I have to say I certainly do not agree with this change from turbine and I wish they would reconsider. However this is certainly not something that is going to completely ruin my game. Being a cleric I hardly ever get involved in melee

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 12:09 AM
It IS bad, the only thing transmuting ever did was save us some inventory slots. Now we have to pollute our inventory EVEN MORE with weapons to bypass other dr.


And fluffy, if you don't see how a new/ non power gamer is hurt by this let me break it down for you:

Transmuting weapons were a cheap alternative that almost ANY player could afford to bypass DR on big baddies. Now the price of transmuting of PG will skyrocket, the price of holy silver whatever will go even HIGHER and MIN2 weapons will still be hard to get for them.



This pretty much denied an entire section of players from being able to feel effective.


It has NOTHING to do with me wanting to be far ahead of others. I will have no problems purchasing new tems. Not everyone is plat rich though.

omg you put it so perfect devs need to read this

Timjc86
04-07-2009, 12:10 AM
I'm sorry, but given my 10 hours or less of play time I have, grinding shroud for ingros, among other quests, make teh time I spend in game rather valuable to me as I'm sure many others like me. The nerf really kills all the time and effort put into making my Min2s(3).

The change as I understand it reduces the types of DR your mineral II will bypass, but the value of a mineral II weapon compared to non-holy/pure good transmuters just skyrocketed. If anything, mineral IIs will gain net value.

xman26
04-07-2009, 12:13 AM
The change as I understand it reduces the types of DR your mineral II will bypass, but the value of a mineral II weapon compared to non-holy/pure good transmuters just skyrocketed. If anything, mineral IIs will gain net value.

Just out of curiousity, just who can you trade/sell you completed Min2 weapon to?






NOONE as it is bound to you and you alone.

FluffyCalico
04-07-2009, 12:13 AM
IN A RELEASE NOT WHEN sos CAME OUT THE DEVS SAID THE SHROUD CRAFTING SYSTEM WILL NOT BE LEVERAGED WITH THE RELEASE OF MOD 9 BASED SOLEY ON THE AMOUT OF EFFORT PLAYERS PUTINTO MAKING THEM.

That means it won't be used (no new crafting) it does not mean won't be better than

Lost_Leader
04-07-2009, 12:14 AM
So just for comparison's sake (I know, DDO is not PnP, blah blah blah)


from the Magic Item Compendium:

TRANSMUTING
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 13th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) transmutation
Activation: —

This odd-looking weapon has both sharp and
blunt sections. Its pommel or grip is set with a
diamond, a piece of jet, a sapphire, and a ruby.
In addition, it is inlaid with both adamantine
and silver.

When you score a successful hit with a
transmuting weapon against a creature
that has damage reduction, that attack is
resolved normally. At the start of your next
turn, however, the weapon transforms,
taking on the properties required to overcome
that creature’s damage reduction.

Once so changed, the weapon overcomes
the designated type of damage reduction
for 10 rounds, or until you strike a creature
that has a different type of damage reduction.
In this case, the weapon transforms in
the same manner to overcome that damage
reduction instead. If the target has multiple
types of damage reduction, the weapon
overcomes all of them. If the creature gains
a new type of damage reduction after initially
being struck (from changing its form,
for example), the weapon must change again
before it can overcome the new type.

A transmuting weapon does not gain
any other benefit of the properties it takes
on, and it always deals normal damage.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, fabricate.
Cost to Create: Varies.



So my opinion? Don't like the new change, it is further deviation from PnP which I always dislike. I would have preferred to see a change that brought it more inline with PnP where a Transmuting Weapon has to calibrate and then has a 1 min duration of that bypass type, then needs to recalibrate. Of course, that would probably be a huge pain in the butt to program.

The change to take it away from being able to bypass alignment and weapon type (especially the weapon type as the weapon is supposed to look all jagged and slicy and piercey all at the same time) takes away from the flavor of the weapon and also hurts one of my favorite things about transmuters: Inventory Management! Not to mention some of the nice weapons I have stashed away are going to be made unusable for what I have them for. Sad Panda.

xman26
04-07-2009, 12:16 AM
And the posts stating that the W/P nerf was cause by jealous complainers are what, the height of witty debate, I suppose. Two wrongs don't make a right, but please, spare us the hypocrisy.

Really, I don't care that much one way or the other. My main has a transmuter of pure good, so I guess he's golden, w00t! But all these "the sky is falling" posts here and in the W/P thread are too silly to not poke a stick into.


The problem is thou, while the W/P nef is a nice balance of give(mobs become do nothings) and take(no longer able to kill mobs from con damage). The transmuter nerf is a straight up jack job on everyone who has spent countless hours(if not months) playing this game to make their GS Min2 weapons.

xman26
04-07-2009, 12:18 AM
That means it won't be used (no new crafting) it does not mean won't be better than


I disagree with your take on that. I see it as not screwing with the crafting system rendering it useless which is what they have done.

Tolero
04-07-2009, 12:18 AM
It's ok to have feedback on something, even if it's something you don't like, but you have to keep it in line with the forum rules. You're not allowed to name call/insult each other, so you most certainly will find yourself in Cube belly flinging such at the staff. Keep it civil gang.

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 12:22 AM
That means it won't be used (no new crafting) it does not mean won't be better than

i know that and i dont mind new crafting i am all for it but they leveraged the shroud crafting when they started nerfing stuff. this has nothing to do with new crafting

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:22 AM
It's ok to have feedback on something, even if it's something you don't like, but you have to keep it in line with the forum rules. You're not allowed to name call/insult each other, so you most certainly will find yourself in Cube belly flinging such at the staff. Keep it civil gang.

No sleep for Tolero huh? You folks had to know that changing one of the most crafted, ingredient intensive items would result in chaos. should have released the notes tues morning so you could have gotten some sleep and dealt with it on the clock lol.

Timjc86
04-07-2009, 12:24 AM
Just out of curiousity, just who can you trade/sell you completed Min2 weapon to?






NOONE as it is bound to you and you alone.

I wasn't suggesting that you sell them. I was suggesting that you keep them and not spend thousands to millions of plat on transmuters of pure good, which just got very very expensive.

Tolero
04-07-2009, 12:25 AM
No sleep for Tolero huh? You folks had to know that changing one of the most crafted, ingredient intensive items would result in chaos. should have released the notes tues morning so you could have gotten some sleep and dealt with it on the clock lol.

What are these "sleep" and "on clock" you speak of? I am intrigued...

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 12:25 AM
So just for comparison's sake (I know, DDO is not PnP, blah blah blah)

from the Magic Item Compendium:

TRANSMUTING
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 13th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) transmutation
Activation: —

This odd-looking weapon has both sharp and
blunt sections. Its pommel or grip is set with a
diamond, a piece of jet, a sapphire, and a ruby.
In addition, it is inlaid with both adamantine
and silver.

When you score a successful hit with a
transmuting weapon against a creature
that has damage reduction, that attack is
resolved normally. At the start of your next
turn, however, the weapon transforms,
taking on the properties required to overcome
that creature’s damage reduction.

Once so changed, the weapon overcomes
the designated type of damage reduction
for 10 rounds, or until you strike a creature
that has a different type of damage reduction.
In this case, the weapon transforms in
the same manner to overcome that damage
reduction instead. If the target has multiple
types of damage reduction, the weapon
overcomes all of them. If the creature gains
a new type of damage reduction after initially
being struck (from changing its form,
for example), the weapon must change again
before it can overcome the new type.

A transmuting weapon does not gain
any other benefit of the properties it takes
on, and it always deals normal damage.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, fabricate.
Cost to Create: Varies.

omg i will give you a scale and a wop rapier wait they nerfed it well how about 2 scales for posting this you are so great dude . devs pls read this one too...anyone wanna try to rebutle this i'd like to see you try

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 12:26 AM
I disagree with your take on that. I see it as not screwing with the crafting system rendering it useless which is what they have done.
Useless? Geez Louise. :rolleyes:

Angelus_dead
04-07-2009, 12:27 AM
The change as I understand it reduces the types of DR your mineral II will bypass, but the value of a mineral II weapon compared to non-holy/pure good transmuters just skyrocketed. If anything, mineral IIs will gain net value.

I have a vision of the new loot they're adding to quests in mod9:
Named Holy Silver Melee Weapons

Wait for it... you'll see I'm right.

FluffyCalico
04-07-2009, 12:27 AM
i know that and i dont mind new crafting i am all for it but they leveraged the shroud crafting when they started nerfing stuff. this has nothing to do with new crafting

No where did they say no nerfs to existing brokenly overpowered gear. Also known as corrections.

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 12:28 AM
What are these "sleep" and "on clock" you speak of? I am intrigued...

lol that was funny i bet you guys are tired with the datacenter move and the mod 9 stuff. i really appreciate your game and the work you do . but my girlfriend hates you for this game ...wait where did she go ? when did she leave.

MrCow
04-07-2009, 12:28 AM
should have released the notes tues morning so you could have gotten some sleep and dealt with it on the clock lol.

Tolero was forced to be killed and reanimated to land her job, due to the requirements it had in situations like this.

Timjc86
04-07-2009, 12:28 AM
I have a vision of the new loot they're adding to quests in mod9:
Named Holy Silver Melee Weapons

Wait for it... you'll see I'm right.

Now that would be a swift kick the... err... a low blow.

Deathseeker
04-07-2009, 12:30 AM
I dont mind the change to transmuting at all. I didnt like the "min II for everything" approach, and at least now blunt weapons will have some minor relevance again. I always felt Transmuting was somewhat overpowered.

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 12:31 AM
No where did they say no nerfs to existing brokenly overpowered gear. Also known as corrections.

you cant correct something that isnt broken . the transmuting was just as it was suppossed to be in the pnp description. and this game is pased ojn pnp dnd 3.5 rules .

Show_me_the_Platinum
04-07-2009, 12:31 AM
I don't see what the big problem is. The devs are turning transmuting back to what it was in PnP. I for one am all for this as it will finally get some players to think about what they are fighting, instead of just running up to something and beating on it without a care. One of the main points that separated DnD from other games was knowing your enemy, a item effect that basically says "This weapon beats all." empowers the power gamers

I don't see the price of something going up that much. Trust me when people post a +1 Pure good dagger for 200,000 gold... it can't go much higher, then again I am talking some agro auction posts (some not all. I post for 1/2 base price buy out 1/4 starting bid)

Tolero
04-07-2009, 12:31 AM
Tolero was forced to be killed and reanimated to land her job, due to the requirements it had in situations like this.

Na I just had to be chaotic neutral.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:33 AM
I have a vision of the new loot they're adding to quests in mod9:
Named Holy Silver Melee Weapons

Wait for it... you'll see I'm right.

Point being? Unless they are static drop it's not like that's going to make it any easier for casuals to get, and anyone else has a MIN2. the issue here is not being able to find somethign tio damage harry with. its:

Casual players are getting a HARD nerf with this. The haves will always have the best. doesnt matter is its crafted or looted or purchased. Plain transmuters were an affordable way for everyone else to try and keep up.

Min2 crafters are getting a nerf in that the item that saved them so much inventory space no longer does that.

Min2 crafters get somethign they played long and hard for nerfed. NOT COOL.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:35 AM
I don't see what the big problem is. The devs are turning transmuting back to what it was in PnP. I for one am all for this as it will finally get some players to think about what they are fighting, instead of just running up to something and beating on it without a care. One of the main points that separated DnD from other games was knowing your enemy, a item effect that basically says "This weapon beats all." empowers the power gamers

I don't see the price of something going up that much. Trust me when people post a +1 Pure good dagger for 200,000 gold... it can't go much higher, then again I am talking some agro auction posts (some not all. I post for 1/2 base price buy out 1/4 starting bid)

Transmuting works NOW as it should. This change takes it even farther away from PnP.

And that is all you get from me in this thread. Please read and know what your posting from now on.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:36 AM
Na I just had to be chaotic neutral.

with no UMD too i bet! LAME! haha

Deathseeker
04-07-2009, 12:38 AM
Min2 crafters are getting a nerf in that the item that saved them so much inventory space no longer does that.

Min2 crafters get somethign they played long and hard for nerfed. NOT COOL.

Just curious...how many situations are there in which a Min II won't suffice?

Sorjak (assuming its a slashing or piercing Min II). What else of substance?

Angelus_dead
04-07-2009, 12:38 AM
Point being? Unless they are static drop it's not like that's going to make it any easier for casuals to get
Wrong. That's just obviously untrue if you pay any attention.


Min2 crafters are getting a nerf in that the item that saved them so much inventory space no longer does that.
Wrong. What they built was a weapon that works superlatively against Arraetrikos, Suulomades, and the new Horoth in mod 9. And it still does that.

As far as saving inventory space: it still does that too. Where previously people would have a punch of +2 acid of greater giantbane and +1 holy goblin bane and +1 transmuting greater outsider bane, now they just have the single Mineral.

The fact that it might not be the best against skeletons and liches anymore? A minor drawback, boo hoo hoo.

However: It would be fine to give affected players a token to dissolve their green steel back into the component parts. Even though Mineral 2 has only lost a little power, it doesn't hurt to give them a "crafting respec".

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 12:40 AM
Transmuting works NOW as it should. This change takes it even farther away from PnP.
So you mean as it stands now you have to hit a monster once before your transmuter "learns" to overcome the target's DR?

Angelus_dead
04-07-2009, 12:41 AM
Transmuting works NOW as it should. This change takes it even farther away from PnP.
Wrong. In D&D, transmuting doesn't work on the first round.

And in D&D, a fight only lasts 4-5 rounds. Meaning Transmuting doesn't work 20-25% of the time.

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 12:45 AM
Wrong. In D&D, transmuting doesn't work on the first round.

And in D&D, a fight only lasts 4-5 rounds. Meaning Transmuting doesn't work 20-25% of the time.

if thats how it is in pnp than that is how it should be but the way they are changing it is not right at all

Lost_Leader
04-07-2009, 12:45 AM
So you mean as it stands now you have to hit a monster once before your transmuter "learns" to overcome the target's DR?

While it does not currently work this way (though I think it would be awesome if a transmuting weapon had to calibrate), the change they are implementing does take it further away from pnp. I posted the pnp item description on page 8 if anyone didn't see it and is curious.

As to whether or not this change is better than the pnp rules for ddo I guess comes down to the opinion of the devs. As to whether or not I think it is better for ddo? No, but I am sadly not the guy who gets to make the decision.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:46 AM
Wrong. That's just obviously untrue if you pay any attention.


Wrong.

What they built was a weapon that works superlatively against Arraetrikos, Suulomades, and the new Horoth in mod 9. And it still does that.

The fact that it might not be the best against skeletons and liches anymore? A minor drawback, boo hoo hoo.

However: It would be fine to give affected players a token to dissolve their green steel back into the component parts. Even though Mineral 2 has only lost a little power, it doesn't hurt to give them a "crafting respec".

What is the point of the nerf though? If it's such a minor drawback, then it's a minor advantage.

I am not boo hoo hoo ing as you so nicely put it.

People spent A LOT of time crafting these things, and now they are not what they wanted. A set it and forget it weapon. And that is EXACTLY what they are in PNP.

Useless change.

Also, regular loot drop transmuters now have to have a second effect on them in order to be worthwhile. I am sure you are aware of how that multiplies the rarity of an item. And when that item is necessary, the PRICE.

As for MIN2 being superlative damage... you know that is not true. You are trading damage for versatility. Especially against pitfiends immune to acid damage. Holy silver greater banes have a significant DPS advantage.


There are no good reasons for this change that can possible outweigh the reasons against it.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 12:48 AM
if thats how it is in pnp than that is how it should be but the way they are changing it is not right at all
Why? I'm not saying this applies to you, but so many people seem to be fond of saying that DDO is not D&D when it suits their purposes, then saying DDO breaks too far from D&D when it suits their other purposes.

I always thought that transmuting overcoming every kind of DR was a bit too much.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:48 AM
Wrong. In D&D, transmuting doesn't work on the first round.

And in D&D, a fight only lasts 4-5 rounds. Meaning Transmuting doesn't work 20-25% of the time.

Yes i misworded that. It works as close as we are going to get. But the change takes it out of the intent of the weapon effect.

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 12:49 AM
I don't see what the big problem is. The devs are turning transmuting back to what it was in PnP. I for one am all for this as it will finally get some players to think about what they are fighting, instead of just running up to something and beating on it without a care. One of the main points that separated DnD from other games was knowing your enemy, a item effect that basically says "This weapon beats all." empowers the power gamers

I don't see the price of something going up that much. Trust me when people post a +1 Pure good dagger for 200,000 gold... it can't go much higher, then again I am talking some agro auction posts (some not all. I post for 1/2 base price buy out 1/4 starting bid)

from the Magic Item Compendium:

TRANSMUTING
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Weapon
Caster Level: 13th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) transmutation
Activation: —

This odd-looking weapon has both sharp and
blunt sections. Its pommel or grip is set with a
diamond, a piece of jet, a sapphire, and a ruby.
In addition, it is inlaid with both adamantine
and silver.

When you score a successful hit with a
transmuting weapon against a creature
that has damage reduction, that attack is
resolved normally. At the start of your next
turn, however, the weapon transforms,
taking on the properties required to overcome
that creature’s damage reduction.

Once so changed, the weapon overcomes
the designated type of damage reduction
for 10 rounds, or until you strike a creature
that has a different type of damage reduction.
In this case, the weapon transforms in
the same manner to overcome that damage
reduction instead. If the target has multiple
types of damage reduction, the weapon
overcomes all of them. If the creature gains
a new type of damage reduction after initially
being struck (from changing its form,
for example), the weapon must change again
before it can overcome the new type.

A transmuting weapon does not gain
any other benefit of the properties it takes
on, and it always deals normal damage.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, fabricate.
Cost to Create: Varies.

Angelus_dead
04-07-2009, 12:50 AM
if thats how it is in pnp than that is how it should be but the way they are changing it is not right at all
Wrong. The fact that a rule exists in D&D doesn't mean it's right for DDO. It doesn't even mean it's right for D&D!


What is the point of the nerf though?
To increase diversity and choices.


Also, regular loot drop transmuters now have to have a second effect on them in order to be worthwhile. I am sure you are aware of how that multiplies the rarity of an item. And when that item is necessary, the PRICE.
That's why I predicted there will be named Holy Silver weapons dropping soon.


As for MIN2 being superlative damage... you know that is not true. You are trading damage for versatility. Especially against pitfiends immune to acid damage. Holy silver greater banes have a significant DPS advantage.
Haha, Holy Silver Greater Bane.

Yeah, totally everyone who build min2 had a Holy Silver Greater Bane they could've bought instead.

Murderface
04-07-2009, 12:53 AM
Sorjek? The Lich? Liches only need magic+Bludgening to break DR..... You dotn have a +1 Holy Mace?

too bad i use transmuting slashers because i am specd for slashing

booo this stinks all my slashing enhancments and feats on my fighter will suck when trying to hit a lich like creature like the abbot **** think ill have to go with the good ole greensteel maul lol have to spec blunt damage tho yuck!

no i dont really care but it will be taking serious umph from my fighter damage for now on

murderface already has a transmuting gs min2 maul

i dont think he will be throwing out his any time soon

FluffyCalico
04-07-2009, 12:56 AM
That's why I predicted there will be named Holy Silver weapons dropping soon.


.

You mean like the vampire bow?

Base Value: 32,075 gp
Weight: 3 lbs
Proficiency Class: Martial weapons
Damage and Type: 1d10 + 2 Pierce, Good, Magic
Critical threat range: 19-20 / x3
Weapon Type: Long Bow / Ranged weapons
Handedness: Ranged weapon
Damage: n/a Attack: Dex
Durability: 120/120 Made from: Silver (Hardness: 12)
Minimum Level: 6
Binding: Does not bind on Acquire
Location: The Church and the Cult, End Chest
[edit] Enhancements
+2 Enhancement Bonus
Holy

FluffyCalico
04-07-2009, 12:57 AM
Silver Longbow from vampire

Base Value: 32,075 gp
Weight: 3 lbs
Proficiency Class: Martial weapons
Damage and Type: 1d10 + 2 Pierce, Good, Magic
Critical threat range: 19-20 / x3
Weapon Type: Long Bow / Ranged weapons
Handedness: Ranged weapon
Damage: n/a Attack: Dex
Durability: 120/120 Made from: Silver (Hardness: 12)
Minimum Level: 6
Binding: Does not bind on Acquire
Location: The Church and the Cult, End Chest
[edit] Enhancements
+2 Enhancement Bonus
Holy

Murderface
04-07-2009, 12:58 AM
Just curious...how many situations are there in which a Min II won't suffice?

Sorjak (assuming its a slashing or piercing Min II). What else of substance?
for slashing specd fighters :P

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 12:59 AM
Haha, Holy Silver Greater Bane.

Yeah, totally everyone who build min2 had a Holy Silver Greater Bane they could've bought instead.

I have several. You verbiage was misleading and I called you on it.
They are not superlative. They are the best compromise. There is nothing wrong with grinding to nausea to get two set it and forget it dps weapons. There is nothing wrong with a casual player being able to get a plus 5 transmuter and feeling like he is contributing by cutting DR.



Yeah you predicted named holy silver items. How does this help? the drop rate for most names items is so low that unless the drop is static it would have almsot NO EFFECT on the price of getting holy/silver damage on a weapon.

bobbryan2
04-07-2009, 12:59 AM
Silver Longbow from vampire

Base Value: 32,075 gp
Weight: 3 lbs
Proficiency Class: Martial weapons
Damage and Type: 1d10 + 2 Pierce, Good, Magic
Critical threat range: 19-20 / x3
Weapon Type: Long Bow / Ranged weapons
Handedness: Ranged weapon
Damage: n/a Attack: Dex
Durability: 120/120 Made from: Silver (Hardness: 12)
Minimum Level: 6
Binding: Does not bind on Acquire
Location: The Church and the Cult, End Chest
[edit] Enhancements
+2 Enhancement Bonus
Holy

Ummm... calling it the silver bow doesn't make it bypass silver DR. It still requires silver arrows, just like any other holy bow.

Were you joking?

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 01:00 AM
this cannot be good for the casual gamer ....simple economics says when the value of something goes up thoe who are not rich cant afford it . so when a tranny maul of grtr indead bane is selling for 1.5 mil plat only the powergamers ( like me) will have it casual gamers will not even be able to get into parties because they will gimp and slow down the group. and my newbie friend wont be able to keep up because they wont get my handouts when i buy them transmuting grtr bane weps for them to have so they arnt far behind the other players that have been here a long time. why because i wont be able to afford them at that price. that means they cant party with a vast majority of the server and will likely stop playing /shrup wow population continues to climb.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:01 AM
Ummm... calling it the silver bow doesn't make it bypass silver DR. It still requires silver arrows, just like any other holy bow.

Were you joking?

i assumed so, never know though lol.

Murderface
04-07-2009, 01:02 AM
I have several. You verbiage was misleading and I called you on it.
They are not superlative. They are the best compromise. There is nothing wrong with grinding to nausea to get two set it and forget it dps weapons. There is nothing wrong with a casual player being able to get a plus 5 transmuter and feeling like he is contributing by cutting DR.



Yeah you predicted named holy silver items. How does this help? the drop rate for most names items is so low that unless the drop is static it would have almsot NO EFFECT on the price of getting holy/silver damage on a weapon.
or at least it used to be

Deslen
04-07-2009, 01:02 AM
Alright, Turbine, you have OFFICIALLY $&#*ed up. Transmuting, as per PnP, if I recall correctly, changes to bypass any bypassable DR. That should include epic.

Now, as far as the arguement of it being overpowered, you're forgetting one thing...
Transmuting is a PREFIX. That means that you can't have transmuting holy, transmuting shocking burst, or any other number of very useful things.

So, a transmuting weapon is indeed very versatile, but it lacks what many other weapons have in terms of something good from the prefix.

Transmuting Pure good can't be used by a lot of casual gamers, so you've royally screwed them.

Mineral II is very nice, but it also costs TON of resources, and grinding like crazy to get.

Now, factor in the fact that this will again mean that my fighter's inventory will be half full of weapons that only OCCASIONALLY get used, and you'll be diverging further from PnP, where you generally only carry two, maybe three weapons since in PnP backpack space and weight limits are far more real.

There, I've said my peace, I'm done. Don't bother responding to me, I'm going to go beat the @^*% out of my pillow in rage and calm down. I don't plan on checking this thread again, I'm sure I'll hear aaaalll about it later.

Oh, and I'm glad they nerfed WoPs, but they did it the WRONG way.

SneakThief
04-07-2009, 01:04 AM
Wrong. In D&D, transmuting doesn't work on the first round.

And in D&D, a fight only lasts 4-5 rounds. Meaning Transmuting doesn't work 20-25% of the time.

What kind of silly lame *** my little pony battles do you have in PnP that only last 4-5 rounds? I'm sorry, but either you need a new DM or you need to stop making up silly numbers to bolster your position. And even IF you ONLY go 4-5 rounds, you must be playing with transmuters at really low levels getting only one attack per round making your numbers work there.

The change was silly and they shouldnt have done it. The only reason it was changed was because of Min2 and thats just a big **** on the face of all the people that have regular transmuters. If Min2 is such a problem, they should have made the effect for Min2 something else and made THAT effect work the way they wanted. (Coming from someone that has min2 on serveral characters). And no I dont really care that I cant bash skellies with my Min2 ... cuz all my melee's have Pos3 skellie bashers anyway, so dont try to use that one either. Im thinking of my friends that dont play enough to have several tier 3 shroud items on every toon and rely on things like plain old transmuters to get the job done. All those people that want to pug shroud just now got a big kick in the teeth.

FluffyCalico
04-07-2009, 01:04 AM
Ummm... calling it the silver bow doesn't make it bypass silver DR. It still requires silver arrows, just like any other holy bow.

Were you joking?

Read what you quoted... It clearly says in what you quoted its made from silver and enchanted with holy. :eek:

Let me shorten the post

Durability: 120/120 Made from: Silver (Hardness: 12)
Minimum Level: 6
Binding: Does not bind on Acquire
Location: The Church and the Cult, End Chest
+2 Enhancement Bonus
Holy

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:06 AM
Read what you quoted... It clearly says in what you quoted its made from silver and enchanted with holy. :eek:

Rofl, internet sarcasm filter? I still can't tell if you are joking. Read tha damage types. Good, pierce, magic. No silver.

SneakThief
04-07-2009, 01:06 AM
garzuls bane is easy to get ... or at least it used to be
If you count grinding out that quest ad nauseum to get it easy.... sure... Optics are easy to get by that logic too. And if they change garzuls bane from cold iron to transmuting, it might be worth the grindage.:D

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 01:07 AM
Transmuting Pure good can't be used by a lot of casual gamers, so you've royally screwed them.
Can't be used by them or you're on the bandwagon predicting they will be too expensive to acquire? If the former, why do you say that?

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 01:07 AM
Just curious...how many situations are there in which a Min II won't suffice?

Sorjak (assuming its a slashing or piercing Min II). What else of substance?

if anyone made a min 2 it was made on a piercing or slashing wepon with the exception of mauls before greataxes were added therefore all min 2 wep out there are now useless on undeads and clay golems and other such stuff that needs a bludeon bypass . if you made a slashing min 2 you are scewed out of piercing and if you made a piercing min 2 you are screwed out of slashing

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:08 AM
or at least it used to be

It's easy to get becasue no one really wants it anymore. Auction prices are cheap. Remember how much optic nerves used to cost? how much named items STILL cost if they are in any kind of demand?

kamimitsu
04-07-2009, 01:10 AM
I've only ever crafted three items to Tier3. I also have no Trans of PG (had been getting by with regular old transmuting for Harry\Sally). My rogue just got a lot less effective for Shroud and VoD, I guess I'll have to grind more Shroud for larges to make Min2s... at least I play mornings when players take the first 12 (within reason) we can get and won't have to deal with Lfms that read "Min2 or TransPG required". As if being a rogue wasn't tough enough.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:11 AM
Can't be used by them or you're on the bandwagon predicting they will be too expensive to acquire? If the former, why do you say that?

Because a lot of casual gamers care about an alignment that they dig. Chaotic neutral for most of my friends I have convinced to come try the game. It is usually a surprise for them to find out there are weapons that they simply CANT equip if they dont have umd or aren't good.

Coming from PNP to this game is a harsh learning process sometimes given the number of differences

Nevthial
04-07-2009, 01:12 AM
this cannot be good for the casual gamer ....simple economics says when the value of something goes up thoe who are not rich cant afford it . so when a tranny maul of grtr indead bane is selling for 1.5 mil plat only the powergamers ( like me) will have it casual gamers will not even be able to get into parties because they will gimp and slow down the group. and my newbie friend wont be able to keep up because they wont get my handouts when i buy them transmuting grtr bane weps for them to have so they arnt far behind the other players that have been here a long time.

My guildies are going to be affected by it as well. They don't play a 1/8 of the time that I do. I am constantly finding twink gear for them and this change looks like it will limit what they can really use even more. How is this going to affect PUGs who have no-one sending them goodies? Will there be even more players in groups who don't feel they are contributing ? Will it be even harder to run with PUGs in certain quests/raids now more than before? I find I am not liking what I see could be coming down the road.....

Hobgoblin
04-07-2009, 01:13 AM
mod 9 = epic fail in all ways shape and form

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:14 AM
My guildies are going to be affected by it as well. They don't play a 1/8 of the time that I do. I am constantly finding twink gear for them and this change looks like it will limit what they can really use even more. How is this going to affect PUGs who have no-one sending them goodies? Will there be even more players in groups who don't feel they are contributing ? Will it be even harder to run with PUGs in certain quests/raids now more than before? I find I am not liking what I see could be coming down the road.....

It's bad all around. Like I said, none of the imaginary "diversity" issues can compare with how this kicks so many folks in the teeth.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 01:14 AM
Because a lot of casual gamers care about an alignment that they dig. Chaotic neutral for most of my friends I have convinced to come try the game. It is usually a surprise for them to find out there are weapons that they simply CANT equip if they dont have umd or aren't good.

Coming from PNP to this game is a harsh learning process sometimes given the number of differences
Bah, I usually play NG in D&D. But before I buy into that argument, I'd need numbers regarding character alignments, and I don't mean anecdotes.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:15 AM
mod 9 = epic fail in all ways shape and form

Nah, there is some good stuff in there.

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:16 AM
Bah, I usually play NG in D&D. But before I buy into that argument, I'd need numbers regarding character alignments, and I don't mean anecdotes.

Well thats impossible and you know it. What is a fact is that most plat-poor casual gamers that don't have UMD won't be able to cut pit fiend dr. That seem like a good plan to you?



EDIT: I usually play NG too for the freedom it gives me roleplaying. However, people that are very serious roleplayers pick an alignment that fits the story they have made for their character. I know u don't like anecdotes, but most of the people I ahve convinced to try DDO from PNP made a kind of DDO version of a PNP character. complete with alginments.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 01:16 AM
Na I just had to be chaotic neutral.

w00t! Really the most bestamest of alignments. :)

Is our Llama server up yet? :D

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/theluckyjosh/mod%209/twitchy_llama.jpg?t=1239084545




I have a vision of the new loot they're adding to quests in mod9:
Named Holy Silver Melee Weapons

Wait for it... you'll see I'm right.

I'm certainly not going to bet against you. :)

As far as Min II, this feels like a light nerf compared to some I was expecting...as far as Transmuting, is there anything these would be used for with this change? I don't mean the gut reaction of "zomg nevah!!!", I mean I can't recall anything these would actually be used for other than mindflayers and ... vampires? Anything else that material only bypasses DR on?

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 01:17 AM
Can't be used by them or you're on the bandwagon predicting they will be too expensive to acquire? If the former, why do you say that?

you need a 20 umd how many melees have that unless of cours they are good not chaotic aligned but i dont think all the ddo population is good alighned. there fore they cant use them

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 01:24 AM
Well thats impossible and you know it. What is a fact is that most plat-poor casual gamers that don't have UMD won't be able to cut pit fiend dr. That seem like a good plan to you?
Wait, what's the connection here between "plat poor" and "UMD?" If they're plat poor, they (hypothetically) won't be able to buy transmuters of pure good which prices are going to (theoretically) skyrocket. If they don't have UMD, they won't have to worry about not being able to afford transmuters of pure good because they won't be able to wield them anyway. But I suppose your point is that with the way it works now, they can get a non-good transmuter and it will do the job.


you need a 20 umd how many melees have that unless of cours they are good not chaotic aligned but i dont think all the ddo population is good alighned. there fore they cant use them
That's clearly why we need not a Ring of Evasion but a Ring of 20 UMD.

MrCow
04-07-2009, 01:27 AM
I mean I can't recall anything these would actually be used for other than mindflayers and ... vampires? Anything else that material only bypasses DR on?


Flesh Golem (Adamantine)
Iron Golem (Adamantine)
Adamantine Defender (Adamantine)
Mind Flayer (ByesKh)
Ghaele (Cold Iron)
Bralani (Cold Iron)
Stormreaver (Mithril)
Orthon (Silver)
Bearded Devil (Silver)
Vampire (Silver)


Utilizing Transmuting with the paladin capstone Weapons of Good should also allow things like Transmuting of Greater Evil Outsider Bane to be effective in their hands.

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 01:28 AM
check this out TURBINE was suppoesed to launch a big ad campeighn (how ever you spell it) and bring new people to ddo this was supposed to be a launchpad for new players and advertising ...the whole shabang ....what new players are going to enjoy a game where they cant get into a party because the will feel worthless and in adequate. and why would someone want to continue anything in which they feel inadequate or horrible at. people dont play games they are bad at .

vtecfiend99
04-07-2009, 01:29 AM
Wait, what's the connection here between "plat poor" and "UMD?" If they're plat poor, they (hypothetically) won't be able to buy transmuters of pure good which prices are going to (theoretically) skyrocket. If they don't have UMD, they won't have to worry about not being able to afford transmuters of pure good because they won't be able to wield them anyway. But I suppose your point is that with the way it works now, they can get a non-good transmuter and it will do the job.

Connection between plat poor and umd: Pure good requires umd if you are not good. If you are plat poor and made the honest choice of being a non good alignemnt and arent a UMD class you are SCREWED. No trans of pure good, no min2 becasue you are casual, no holy silver becasue it's expensive. the only option open to you would be transmuting flametouched iron (X) and thats gonne be pretty rare. Not a good scenario to have.

It's not broke now. there is no reason to fix it.

Auran82
04-07-2009, 01:31 AM
To be honest, that is something I never thought of.

What happens to the poor melees who have a neutral alignment, they can't simply go and find a Transmuting of PG weapon, they are stuck looking for Holy Silver, Mineral II or Transmuting Flametouched Iron of something. We're not talking about trying to find something to do top damage to harry, we're talking about finding an weapon that will probably get groups to allow you in the shroud in the first place.

My first character was a rogue who I made as NG, for no other reason than it was a common alignment I used in PnP. Every time I see a 'taint of evil' item, it annoys me that I probably never be able to use it (well, without taking a neg level)

Alignment is one of those fairly arbitrary choices you make at character creation which probably has more of an effect on your character than it should.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 01:31 AM
Flesh Golem (Adamantine)
Iron Golem (Adamantine)
Adamantine Defender (Adamantine)
Mind Flayer (ByesKh)
Ghaele (Cold Iron)
Bralani (Cold Iron)
Stormreaver (Mithril)
Orthon (Silver)
Bearded Devil (Silver)
Vampire (Silver)


Ah! Thanks muchly. :)

I'd assumed the "evil dudes" in that list also required some flavor of "good" also...or is that just the named ones? Or just raid bosses? Demons would rank in there as well, then, as cold iron.

Auran82
04-07-2009, 01:39 AM
Ah! Thanks muchly. :)

I'd assumed the "evil dudes" in that list also required some flavor of "good" also...or is that just the named ones? Or just raid bosses? Demons would rank in there as well, then, as cold iron.

You will find that many of the DRs change at hard or elite difficulty, I think Orthons and the Devils are like this. Normal DR is Good or Silver, at elite it becomes Good AND Silver.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 01:39 AM
Connection between plat poor and umd: Pure good requires umd if you are not good. If you are plat poor and made the honest choice of being a non good alignemnt and arent a UMD class you are SCREWED. No trans of pure good, no min2 becasue you are casual, no holy silver becasue it's expensive. the only option open to you would be transmuting flametouched iron (X) and thats gonne be pretty rare. Not a good scenario to have.

It's not broke now. there is no reason to fix it.
On a slight tangent, too bad Righteous is not good-aligned (which it seems like it should be, regardless of what it is in PnP). That would add another option for the non-good aligned.

Venar
04-07-2009, 01:41 AM
So, currently, you are better off crafting a Mineral 2 MAUL over a Greataxe...

MrCow
04-07-2009, 01:43 AM
I'd assumed the "evil dudes" in that list also required some flavor of "good" also...or is that just the named ones? Or just raid bosses? Demons would rank in there as well, then, as cold iron.

Some named devils (namely our Pit Fiend and Horned Devil) require silver and good. The rest are all bypassed with either silver or good.

Our demons (renders/flensers/reavers) are specifically cold iron and good (or law for Thaarak Hounds), no deviations. It used to be lower-end renders/flensers/reavers required one or the other, but that was changed.

Our eladrin (Bralani and Ghaele) require cold iron or evil, with the exception of everyone's favorite, Taeron Rimond, needing cold iron and evil.


*EDIT* - As posted by Auran82, some critters change from one form of DR to another on various difficulties.

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 01:44 AM
You will find that many of the DRs change at hard or elite difficulty, I think Orthons and the Devils are like this. Normal DR is Good or Silver, at elite it becomes Good AND Silver.

Ah! Yeah, *that's* what I was looking for. Thanks muchly. :)

SableShadow
04-07-2009, 01:45 AM
Some named devils (namely our Pit Fiend and Horned Devil) require silver and good. The rest are all bypassed with either silver or good.

Our demons (renders/flensers/reavers) are specifically cold iron and good (or law for Thaarak Hounds), no deviations. It used to be lower-end renders/flensers/reavers required one or the other, but that was changed.

Our eladrin (Bralani and Ghaele) require cold iron or evil, with the exception of everyone's favorite, Taeron Rimond, needing cold iron and evil.

There we go! Been too long since I had to worry about any of that...thanks again. :)

MrCow
04-07-2009, 01:47 AM
There we go! Been too long since I had to worry about any of that...thanks again.

Transmuting has spoiled us, lowering our lore checks on monster DR for a long time.

honkuimushi
04-07-2009, 02:01 AM
If the goal was to nerf Min2 then how about changing the effect granted to Min2 to Metalline and leaving Transmuting alone.

The fluff makes some sense with Mineral being related to metal, but not slashing, piercing, etc. or to alignment. They would work just as it's being proposed they would in Mod 9. That would mean that those using Min2 would be able to bypass 80% of the DR out there and may just need to get a skelly basher. And maybe something for Clay Golems and Maruts as well. They could even keep a regular transmuter for those.

At the same time it doesn't hose all the casuals using regular Transmuters.

smatt
04-07-2009, 02:02 AM
Transmuting has spoiled us, lowering our lore checks on monster DR for a long time.


Agreed..... I think there's a lot of over reaction to all of this really. MinII is still a very nice weapon., it will still hit a lot fo the mobs through-out the game. Just nto ALL of the mobs..... Melees will ahe to "think" a bit more. They will ahve to carry a few more weapons for SOME quests, they will ahve to search a bit more for weapon types for certain quests. That's all..... Now, I can say that finesse build, true neutral toons may be a bit on the short end ehre... But they always were anyway ;) Min II will still bypass the really BIG DRs... Harry and Sally, let's nto forget that most of the DRs in game now less than 20, so many weapons while not idea, still do enough damage.... It's just that the builds who were marginal against certain mobs that MinII made good against certain mobs, will be less effective.


Not a big deal..... Yes it's a change, but I think a change for the better, as I do with the change to WoP as well.....

It'll take a bit of thinking now though..... Easy buttons #1 and #2 gone...... Only 10 more to go.................:cool:

Solmage
04-07-2009, 02:07 AM
If the goal was to nerf Min2 then how about changing the effect granted to Min2 to Metalline and leaving Transmuting alone.

I agree with this - the point of a transmuter is to not have to carry 100 different weapon types - one blunt of greater undead bane, one slashing of greater undead bane, one for those **** spiders that require piercing, etc etc.

As it is, even with mineral 2s, I'm carrying over 25 weapons! That is enough! Are you people purposely TRYING to alienate the player base?

bobbryan2
04-07-2009, 02:08 AM
Read what you quoted... It clearly says in what you quoted its made from silver and enchanted with holy. :eek:

Let me shorten the post

Durability: 120/120 Made from: Silver (Hardness: 12)
Minimum Level: 6
Binding: Does not bind on Acquire
Location: The Church and the Cult, End Chest
+2 Enhancement Bonus
Holy

It clearly says in what you quoted that I said this bow doesn't BYPASS silver DR.

And it doesn't.

TrenchcoatJesus
04-07-2009, 02:46 AM
After the discussion merge I figured I'd revisit this thread one more time, to see if any solid arguments had been brought up as to why the transmuting change would be a bad idea.

All I have seen is "I invested my time in a game and you changed it"

Read the terms of service?

As far as negatively impacting gameplay itself, I don't see the issue. As several have pointed out, the primary current purpose for mineral II's (that is, current raid material and likely raid material we'll see in mod 9, it being in Shavarath and all) remains unchanged. They work on Harry and Suulo just fine.

Carrying more weapons? Suppose it'd be an inconvenience. Are they removing that one raid item that allows casters not to need any material components thus freeing up their slots? No such item exists. Casters can manage. Melee managed before Greensteel. I think we'll be okay. Heck, we even get a free shard bank tab that all of our toons can access, making swapping weapons easier.

Months of grinding down the tube? I just don't see it. Greensteel are extraordinary weapons, and I imagine will continue to be so. All this change allows for is diversity. You don't *NEED* Mineral II for your DPS. You could use a lightning strike weapon, or a dust weapon, or maybe just maybe a new named weapon that they'll introduce in mod 9. I don't see how making it less clear which is the *BEST* end-all be-all weapon is a bad thing.

If the same logic were applied to builds, and no class was ever nerfed, we'd be seeing (hypothetically) every melee roll a pure ranger. Why? Because build x is the best build there is, and if you aren't x, you'll be discriminated against for raid spots. I'd imagine we'd see a similar outcry in this hypothetical situation if rangers were nerfed, and other classes became viable for melee builds.

Lastly, the only "legs" this outcry can even remotely stand on is the idea of "without transmuting, we'll be ineffective against x and y monsters," which I cannot reasonably agree with. Less effective against undead like Sorjek? Yes. Ineffective? No. A dead melee is ineffective. A dex build halfling monk dealing 2-7 damage a swing on Sorjek is less effective. The time difference between the two is monumental. Dealing 5-15 less damage a swing if you don't have an appropriate weapon will make that boss go down minutes later, not hours later. Furthermore, melee is, believe it or not, not the only possible source of dps.

Basing all enjoyment of the game off of the best possible scenario will invariably lead to dissatisfaction. I've run with every kind of group that I know of to exist, from the just-learning-the-game to the plays-once-every-other-week to some of the most knowledgeable, experienced players I've met (including but not limited to Legion and Pestilence on Thelanis server) and not once have I been in what I'd consider the perfect group. The more "uber" the build and player is, the more you can do with less -- you can short man quests, you can run difficult quests in minutes, you can run difficult quests without a cleric or bard. Even so, the game doesn't become impossible if a group falls short of wherever you put your "uber" yardstick.

If the hours, weeks, months of grinding for that Mineral II which has been slightly reduced in effectiveness seem like a waste worthy of cancelling your account, then you're beyond my reasoning. I'd hope the rest of us realize we're dedicating time to a game, which invariably is a waste -- it's just a fun waste of time. Something called a pass time. If it stops being fun, by all means stop doing it. On the whole, however, I don't see this fix as "stopping the fun in its tracks." At most, it's presenting a new challenge to the players which may make some things more difficult (deciding upon and finding the "ideal" weapon for a boss, balancing and managing inventory slots, etc.) and was done in the spirit of game balance.

The last point, game balance, can be debated endlessly, but I hope most can agree that the changes Turbine does make are typically necessary and done to promote game balance. Variety is the hallmark of balance, and I see a lot of it in game as it is. I can't see how this change will not bring about more variety, so I can't see why it would be a bad change in the spirit of game balance.

-TrenchcoatJesus

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 02:57 AM
After the discussion merge I figured I'd revisit this thread one more time, to see if any solid arguments had been brought up as to why the transmuting change would be a bad idea.

All I have seen is "I invested my time in a game and you changed it"

Read the terms of service?

As far as negatively impacting gameplay itself, I don't see the issue. As several have pointed out, the primary current purpose for mineral II's (that is, current raid material and likely raid material we'll see in mod 9, it being in Shavarath and all) remains unchanged. They work on Harry and Suulo just fine.

Carrying more weapons? Suppose it'd be an inconvenience. Are they removing that one raid item that allows casters not to need any material components thus freeing up their slots? No such item exists. Casters can manage. Melee managed before Greensteel. I think we'll be okay. Heck, we even get a free shard bank tab that all of our toons can access, making swapping weapons easier.

Months of grinding down the tube? I just don't see it. Greensteel are extraordinary weapons, and I imagine will continue to be so. All this change allows for is diversity. You don't *NEED* Mineral II for your DPS. You could use a lightning strike weapon, or a dust weapon, or maybe just maybe a new named weapon that they'll introduce in mod 9. I don't see how making it less clear which is the *BEST* end-all be-all weapon is a bad thing.

If the same logic were applied to builds, and no class was ever nerfed, we'd be seeing (hypothetically) every melee roll a pure ranger. Why? Because build x is the best build there is, and if you aren't x, you'll be discriminated against for raid spots. I'd imagine we'd see a similar outcry in this hypothetical situation if rangers were nerfed, and other classes became viable for melee builds.

Lastly, the only "legs" this outcry can even remotely stand on is the idea of "without transmuting, we'll be ineffective against x and y monsters," which I cannot reasonably agree with. Less effective against undead like Sorjek? Yes. Ineffective? No. A dead melee is ineffective. A dex build halfling monk dealing 2-7 damage a swing on Sorjek is less effective. The time difference between the two is monumental. Dealing 5-15 less damage a swing if you don't have an appropriate weapon will make that boss go down minutes later, not hours later. Furthermore, melee is, believe it or not, not the only possible source of dps.

Basing all enjoyment of the game off of the best possible scenario will invariably lead to dissatisfaction. I've run with every kind of group that I know of to exist, from the just-learning-the-game to the plays-once-every-other-week to some of the most knowledgeable, experienced players I've met (including but not limited to Legion and Pestilence on Thelanis server) and not once have I been in what I'd consider the perfect group. The more "uber" the build and player is, the more you can do with less -- you can short man quests, you can run difficult quests in minutes, you can run difficult quests without a cleric or bard. Even so, the game doesn't become impossible if a group falls short of wherever you put your "uber" yardstick.

If the hours, weeks, months of grinding for that Mineral II which has been slightly reduced in effectiveness seem like a waste worthy of cancelling your account, then you're beyond my reasoning. I'd hope the rest of us realize we're dedicating time to a game, which invariably is a waste -- it's just a fun waste of time. Something called a pass time. If it stops being fun, by all means stop doing it. On the whole, however, I don't see this fix as "stopping the fun in its tracks." At most, it's presenting a new challenge to the players which may make some things more difficult (deciding upon and finding the "ideal" weapon for a boss, balancing and managing inventory slots, etc.) and was done in the spirit of game balance.

The last point, game balance, can be debated endlessly, but I hope most can agree that the changes Turbine does make are typically necessary and done to promote game balance. Variety is the hallmark of balance, and I see a lot of it in game as it is. I can't see how this change will not bring about more variety, so I can't see why it would be a bad change in the spirit of game balance.

-TrenchcoatJesus
based on what you wrote it is clear you are no pnp/dnd enthusiast nor pureist and you definately did not read pages 6-12 where all the valid reasoning arise and there are some very very good points made . so i deem what you had to say irrelevent . because you have not read anything in this thread that you are commenting on.

branmakmuffin
04-07-2009, 03:03 AM
based on what you wrote it is clear you are no pnp/dnd enthusiast nor pureist and you definately did not read pages 6-12 where all the valid reasoning arise and there are some very very good points made . so i deem what you had to say irrelevent . because you have not read anything in this thread that you are commenting on.
Well, I have read (almost) everything and what he wrote makes perfect sense.

ducetrae
04-07-2009, 03:08 AM
Well, I have read (almost) everything and what he wrote makes perfect sense.

i guess you havnt read all of what you think you have

TrenchcoatJesus
04-07-2009, 03:10 AM
based on what you wrote it is clear you are no pnp/dnd enthusiast nor pureist and you definately did not read pages 6-12 where all the valid reasoning arise and there are some very very good points made . so i deem what you had to say irrelevent . because you have not read anything in this thread that you are commenting on.

Actually I'm both. But this game isn't dnd, it's dnd flavored. Even PnP campaigns very rarely (depending upon your DM) will follow all of the core rules word for word. There are often house rules designed to balance unforeseen exploits in the game mechanics, or at least the common trust between player and DM that abusive mechanics will not be exploited.

Smart DMs are always hesitant to take something away once they have given it to a player, but will take action if one player is ruining the fun of the game for the rest. Turbine has a significantly larger task given the sheer number of players it has, and the fact that we're using a video game platform instead of a face-to-face meeting.

If you don't like the way your DM runs sessions, you don't have to play. The same mentality is present for DDO. However, in most cases the bigger picture involves who you're playing *with*. I can't tell you how many characters I've lost in pnp sessions, after how many hours I'd spent fleshing out their background, bio, etc., but I've yet to quit playing because of that, much less having a DM decide they need to nerf one of my character's abilities to preserve the notion of game balance.

-TrenchcoatJesus

Lost_Leader
04-07-2009, 03:36 AM
Actually I'm both. But this game isn't dnd, it's dnd flavored. Even PnP campaigns very rarely (depending upon your DM) will follow all of the core rules word for word. There are often house rules designed to balance unforeseen exploits in the game mechanics, or at least the common trust between player and DM that abusive mechanics will not be exploited.

Smart DMs are always hesitant to take something away once they have given it to a player, but will take action if one player is ruining the fun of the game for the rest. Turbine has a significantly larger task given the sheer number of players it has, and the fact that we're using a video game platform instead of a face-to-face meeting.

If you don't like the way your DM runs sessions, you don't have to play. The same mentality is present for DDO. However, in most cases the bigger picture involves who you're playing *with*. I can't tell you how many characters I've lost in pnp sessions, after how many hours I'd spent fleshing out their background, bio, etc., but I've yet to quit playing because of that, much less having a DM decide they need to nerf one of my character's abilities to preserve the notion of game balance.

-TrenchcoatJesus

I think some of the better arguments brought up that you may have missed revolved around increasing the gap between the casual gamer and the folks who have more time to play. This, in turn, can really affect balance. I play a lot. I am not going to have a hard time outfitting my melee characters with good weapons for the situational times when my Mineral II weapons would have been a good choice. In some instances I will get weapons that overall are better than Min II but I had banked because of inventory issues.

This change isn't really going to hurt me, other than my already sparce inventory space and to peeve me a bit because I purposefully made Min II's or got my hands on great transmuters to make some room in my backpack. Who it is really going to hurt are the guys who don't have time to make Min IIs but can pick up a +5 transmuting weapon out of House D.

Its going to hurt the Neutral aligned non-umd characters, there are some good points earlier in the thread about those.

Its going to hurt monks when they need a piercing weapon to bypass a DR... unless we see a pierce weapon added to the monk centered weapons.

And all this to gain what? I guess it makes some PvE balance for the devs to be able to change up badguys without having to crank up their HP to even higher levels... but once again, the guys who have the weapons arent going to care. Sucks to be the Weekend Warrior.

bobbryan2
04-07-2009, 03:41 AM
Yeah... this is the change the bugs me the most.

If I had known I was going to need transmuting of pure good or transmuting flametouched iron... I woulda looked for it.

I made reasonable assumptions and bypassed pure good for weapon effects I'd rather have.. deception on rogues, righteousness on low 'to hit' characters, greater banes, etc...

Just sucks that I 'guessed wrong' on which weapons I should get... and now i can't even sell off my transmuters I bought for a fraction of what I paid for them.

But hey... at least I didn't have a wop. It's kinda funny to see the wops that just went up on the AH (but that's only because I didn't really have any characters that could overly use 'em).

I'll get over it. It's not the end of the world. it just sucks that you spend time looking for a weapon, and now it's not worth squat and the weapon you DO need just skyrocketed in price.

Riggs
04-07-2009, 03:45 AM
Like many I am sure, after getting a mineral 2 item on a few characters - they then got rid off all the monster specific weapons they had, many are now sold.

So anything like good/blunt/slashing/lawful/anarchic etc - I am going to have to try and find new weapons again when I used to have good ones that became redundant with mineral 2.

Like the change to res clickies - changes to crafted items/effects that gut something you spent a lot of time and effort on is a real kick in the pants.

Yeah it was over the top to have a single weapon that basically replaced 90% of all your other weapons....but giving something, then taking it away after you have made big changes to your character or inventory....well thats fun I guess.

Angelus_dead
04-07-2009, 04:26 AM
Just sucks that I 'guessed wrong' on which weapons I should get... and now i can't even sell off my transmuters I bought for a fraction of what I paid for them.
Head over to the big respec thread, and someone will teach you how to divine future changes before the devs have even thought of them.

Aranticus
04-07-2009, 04:55 AM
you need a 20 umd how many melees have that unless of cours they are good not chaotic aligned but i dont think all the ddo population is good alighned. there fore they cant use them

my L16 pure fighter has 30+ umd

simple umd math for a L16 non umd class
ranks = 9
cartouche = 3
charisma = 2
greater hero = 4
total = 18

simple gear, no grinding required and you hit 18 umd easy. are you telling me 20 umd is impossible?

and also to all on the "casual players are royally screwed as they do not have good alignment" players. complete utter bovine excretement. most casual players will not have changed the alignment and guess what? default is LAWFUL GOOD!

Aranticus
04-07-2009, 05:03 AM
i've read the whole thead and come to the conclusion

xman26 =/= show_me_the_platinum :D

ok ok! back to topic

what i feel is that the change is stupid. to make transmuting only have metallic functions only is idiotic. i'd prefer this change here

transmuting mimics the structure of an item. it gains the following properties
1. able to simulate these metals, byeshk, silver, cold iron, adamantine
2. able to simulate these shapes, slashing, piercing, bludgeon

would i want it to bypass alignment? no

why? i only use 10 weapons currently (2 vorp, 2 disrupter, 2 smiter, 2 muckdoom, 2 min2) on my L16 twf fighter. diversity? none

Gryphton
04-07-2009, 05:39 AM
Ok, I still can;t find where this is mentioned in the release notes, could someone give us the Quote please?

So, does this mean my transmuting of Greater evil outsider and transmuting of Greater undead bane dwarven axes are garbage or what?

Angelus_dead
04-07-2009, 05:44 AM
Ok, I still can;t find where this is mentioned in the release notes, could someone give us the Quote please?
Release note:

The Transmuting weapon enchantment is now: "This weapon transmutes into a form that is able to bypass any material based Damage Reduction. (Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Byeshk, Cold Iron, or Mithril)"


So, does this mean my transmuting of Greater evil outsider and transmuting of Greater undead bane dwarven axes are garbage or what?
It means they're a lot less valuable, especially against raid bosses. But there are some kinds of evil outsiders and undead who will be fully vulnerable, and you never know if they'll become important enemies again.

captain1z
04-07-2009, 06:07 AM
MrCows posts have actually made me feel better about the change. True, we have been spoiled by transmuting.

Now we need to think a bit more with our builds and gear. You cant just grab a transmuter and be effective anymore.

It gives palis more value and adds value to all the other weapons we called vendor trash for the last year.

Just think of it from a devs perspective. Once they added transmuting 90% of the other standard weapons out there became useless junk. Fodder for the altar.

This change will breath life back into our virtual economy but the downside is it will eat up more inventory space........... again.


THNX COW for all you DDO

Aranticus
04-07-2009, 06:36 AM
Ok, I still can;t find where this is mentioned in the release notes, could someone give us the Quote please?

So, does this mean my transmuting of Greater evil outsider and transmuting of Greater undead bane dwarven axes are garbage or what?

roll a pure pally! :D

GrayOldDruid
04-07-2009, 06:41 AM
Ok, I still can;t find where this is mentioned in the release notes, could someone give us the Quote please?

So, does this mean my transmuting of Greater evil outsider and transmuting of Greater undead bane dwarven axes are garbage or what?

I'd say no on the TGEOB - It will still change to Silver for Demons and Iron for Devils and get you the Bane bonuses.

on the TGUB, its a bit less DPS on Skellies. It will no longer turn your slicing axe into a bludgeoning axe for skellies, so your damage will go down on skeletons.

Transmuting works by getting to an enemie's weakness. Some are vulnerable to silver, iron, adamantine, etc. Others are vulnerable to slicing or bludgeoning or piercing (axeblock, hammerblock or spearblock), Transmuting at the moment changes a mace to a sharp sword-like thing while still giving you the bonus for weilding a bludgeoning item that you got from your specalization feat. After Mod9, it won't change a mace to a sword or a sword to a mace or dagger.

GrayOldDruid
04-07-2009, 06:48 AM
but the downside is it will eat up more inventory space........... again.


I am really hoping for something to counter this inventory filling change. Don't mind the change, but I'm already short on inventory space!!

xman26
04-07-2009, 07:24 AM
No where did they say no nerfs to existing brokenly overpowered gear. Also known as corrections.

What exactly was so overpowering of GS Min2 weapons? Or for that matter, any Transmuter weapon?

xman26
04-07-2009, 07:25 AM
I dont mind the change to transmuting at all. I didnt like the "min II for everything" approach, and at least now blunt weapons will have some minor relevance again. I always felt Transmuting was somewhat overpowered.


As compared to what exactly? RadianceII? Air/Pos?

xman26
04-07-2009, 07:27 AM
I don't see what the big problem is. The devs are turning transmuting back to what it was in PnP. I for one am all for this as it will finally get some players to think about what they are fighting, instead of just running up to something and beating on it without a care. One of the main points that separated DnD from other games was knowing your enemy, a item effect that basically says "This weapon beats all." empowers the power gamers

I don't see the price of something going up that much. Trust me when people post a +1 Pure good dagger for 200,000 gold... it can't go much higher, then again I am talking some agro auction posts (some not all. I post for 1/2 base price buy out 1/4 starting bid)


Failed to read the PnP transmuting discription on page 7 of this thread didn't ya. Transmuting takes on the properties of what ever is nessassary to bypass DR. With the rework, it no longer does that.

FluffyCalico
04-07-2009, 07:30 AM
What exactly was so overpowering of GS Min2 weapons? Or for that matter, any Transmuter weapon?

Well lets see people carried min2 for bosses

vorpals and w/p for non bosses

that pretty much sums it up, thats all you needed for anything

Vorpals got fixed with death ward and now so have the other 2. This corrects a very broken weapon group.

Borror0
04-07-2009, 07:30 AM
What exactly was so overpowering of GS Min2 weapons? Or for that matter, any Transmuter weapon?
Easy. You need no other weapon for DPS unless you are one of the lucky few to find a Holy Silver of Greater Evil Outsider Bane (or similar equivalent for the boss you are fighting).

Riorik
04-07-2009, 07:31 AM
You mean like the vampire bow?

Base Value: 32,075 gp
Weight: 3 lbs
Proficiency Class: Martial weapons
Damage and Type: 1d10 + 2 Pierce, Good, Magic
Critical threat range: 19-20 / x3
Weapon Type: Long Bow / Ranged weapons
Handedness: Ranged weapon
Damage: n/a Attack: Dex
Durability: 120/120 Made from: Silver (Hardness: 12)
Minimum Level: 6
Binding: Does not bind on Acquire
Location: The Church and the Cult, End Chest
[edit] Enhancements
+2 Enhancement Bonus
Holy

The Silver Longbow isn't Silver - it's more or less just a name...kinda like "The Silver Flame". I'm not sure, that might be the source or inspiration. You have to use Silver Arrows by bypass Harry's DR using this bow...coincidentally, that could be one of the game changes in the future as players move to what bypasses the DR.

Regarding Sally, Harry, etc -- Rogues are hurt a bit less as long as they can avoid aggro.

Riorik
04-07-2009, 07:33 AM
Flesh Golem (Adamantine)
Iron Golem (Adamantine)
Adamantine Defender (Adamantine)
Mind Flayer (ByesKh)
Ghaele (Cold Iron)
Bralani (Cold Iron)
Stormreaver (Mithril)
Orthon (Silver)
Bearded Devil (Silver)
Vampire (Silver)


Utilizing Transmuting with the paladin capstone Weapons of Good should also allow things like Transmuting of Greater Evil Outsider Bane to be effective in their hands.

Doesn't DDO used a tiered (non standard PnP) approach to DR based on difficulty? aka, differences between Normal, Hard & Elite regarding what can bypass the DR.

Draccus
04-07-2009, 07:33 AM
transmuters of pg just went up a ton, whereas plain transmuters blow, which is unfortunate

and min2 are great, still

And yet another hidden issue for those of us who were stupid enough to select Neutral as our aligment way back at level 1 when we didn't know that DDO is the only D&D game in history that didn't allow alignment changes.

A neutral character must use UMD to equip at PG item so not only are our regular transmuters now worthless against Arraetrikos and Suulomades but those neutral characters without UMD have no choice but to craft MinII's.

Even those of us WITH UMD must deal with the fact that rez penalties, level drains, debuffs, feebleminds, etc. could render even a transmuter of PG useless.

Nice...not.