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View Full Version : The end of Charmed Monsters?



Nevthial
04-06-2009, 07:37 PM
Dominated creatures now appear with blue spell effects, and will follow their master through dungeons. Charmed monsters now tend to remain in the room which they were charmed in.



What's the point of Charm Spells with this in effect? Thanks for Mass Charm now that it's been ruined........

Drider
04-06-2009, 07:39 PM
Dominated creatures now appear with blue spell effects, and will follow their master through dungeons. Charmed monsters now tend to remain in the room which they were charmed in.



What's the point of Charm Spells with this in effect? Thanks for Mass Charm now that it's been ruined........

Bascially you can't have a little charmed army follow you around. Charm the room then move on and leave them there. Charm the next bunch of monsters and so on.

Angelus_dead
04-06-2009, 07:41 PM
The reason for the change was so that there would be an advantage to casting Dominate spells, which give a stronger kind of control.

In D&D, Dominate will let you have the victim fight for you, but Charm will usually not do that; a Charmed creature thinks you're his friend, not his boss.
In DDO, Charm has been upgraded to cause victims to be combat slaves, which means that so far Dominate hasn't been any better.

In the future, Dominate will be the spell to get a slave to follow you around, while Charm will be to make it fight in one spot.


What's the point of Charm Spells with this in effect?
The point is that you come into a room with 10 trolls, and Charm one of them. All the other trolls attack him, giving your team an opening to kill them one at a time.


Thanks for Mass Charm now that it's been ruined........
You come into a room with 5 Frost Giants and hit them all with one Mass Charm spell. Then you use the Dismiss Charm feat to release them one at a time to fight them.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 07:42 PM
Bascially you can't have a little charmed army follow you around. Charm the room then move on and leave them there. Charm the next bunch of monsters and so on.

Which ruins the Charm spells......

tolana
04-06-2009, 07:46 PM
and turbine wasted resources fixing this instead of things like a recall from the shroud taking you to korthos or maybe fixing hand wraps oh god i could go on and on. with so many other things needing fixed this is poor use of resources.

Drider
04-06-2009, 07:51 PM
and turbine wasted resources fixing this instead of things like a recall from the shroud taking you to korthos or maybe fixing hand wraps oh god i could go on and on. with so many other things needing fixed this is poor use of resources.


Umm what are you babbling about.. those are fixed.. read the mod 9 patch notes.

Drider
04-06-2009, 07:52 PM
Which ruins the Charm spells......


I don't usually agree with AD, but he's right on Domination over Charm.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 07:53 PM
and turbine wasted resources fixing this instead of things like a recall from the shroud taking you to korthos or maybe fixing hand wraps oh god i could go on and on. with so many other things needing fixed this is poor use of resources.

No, the fixed the shroud thing as well. And some things added back to handwraps (like vicious, which is now 1d3 and with fists of light.... NM, who plays monks anyway).

Good change turbine, like AD said, charmed mobs aren't supposed to be your slaves. This way wizards are not taking armies through SC.

tolana
04-06-2009, 07:54 PM
as of today they are not fixed and i find it hard to beleive anything turbine says now

Korvek
04-06-2009, 07:55 PM
as of today they are not fixed and i find it hard to beleive anything turbine says now

That's very nearly self-contradictory.

Drider
04-06-2009, 07:55 PM
as of today they are not fixed and i find it hard to beleive anything turbine says now


Soo just trolling then?

boldarblood
04-06-2009, 07:58 PM
as of today they are not fixed and i find it hard to beleive anything turbine says now

want a cookie?

MrCow
04-06-2009, 08:00 PM
Given that monsters like to fight when possible, if your army is large enough you can probably bring it with you via dismiss charm, using the dismissed monsters along the way as breadcrumbs.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 08:02 PM
Given that monsters like to fight when possible, if your army is large enough you can probably bring it with you via dismiss charm, using the dismissed monsters along the way as breadcrumbs.

haha good thinking ! may be a bit strung out but it could work.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 08:06 PM
I don't usually agree with AD, but he's right on Domination over Charm.

Not totally correct, in PnP , the creature which is charmed wont do something it wont normally do. Evil creatures such as Trolls or orcs for example, will kill one another over a single piece of copper with the right words whispered in their ears. There is even an example of how you couldnt convince a creature that is charmed to drink acid, but you could convince it to "hold off that dragon a sec while i escape" which leads to its death. It isn't hard to see how a charmed chaotic evil creature could be convinced to join you and loot the place it was living at if you "convinced him he would be the boss when its over" .............
Turbine kinda dropped the ball on this.

branmakmuffin
04-06-2009, 08:10 PM
Which ruins the Charm spells......
It does?

noilli
04-06-2009, 08:15 PM
It's lower level than dominate of course it should be weaker. I'm just wondering what Command Undead counts as.

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:19 PM
Except not everything we fight is chaotic.

They can't really be expected to program culture into a mob.

Charm a kobold he will hide behind you and clean your armor.

Charm an ogre and he will act as a bouncer/bodyguard.

Charm a troll and he may kill you for a gold piece anyway, it is what trolls do.

Charm a Dwarf and he will meet you back at the pub for a beer.

I think we get that Charm was your tactic of choice, it will still work to a certain extent soooooo

Give it up Nevthial

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:20 PM
It's lower level than dominate of course it should be weaker. I'm just wondering what Command Undead counts as.

I wouldn't bet on it being implemented properly but it should be more like dominate.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 08:25 PM
Except not everything we fight is chaotic.

They can't really be expected to program culture into a mob.

Charm a kobold he will hide behind you and clean your armor.

Charm an ogre and he will act as a bouncer/bodyguard.

Charm a troll and he may kill you for a gold piece anyway, it is what trolls do.

Charm a Dwarf and he will meet you back at the pub for a beer.

I think we get that Charm was your tactic of choice, it will still work to a certain extent soooooo

Give it up Nevthial

It will still work for me as I typically use it to draw evrything in sight into a spell trap. Good thing Dominate Monster is being given to us for the other uses though...

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:28 PM
Ahh, that is good then. Would hate you to have to delete your evasion wizard.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 08:31 PM
Ahh, that is good then. Would hate you to have to delete your evasion wizard.

I don't re-roll. Never found a need to yet. I'm actually looking forward to being capped out in a few hours. Level 9 spells, 40 INT, AND Evasion, who couldn't ask for more ? :)

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 08:36 PM
Sorc casting speeds and the ability to quicken self heal?

But that's just me.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 09:03 PM
Sorc casting speeds and the ability to quicken self heal?

But that's just me.

I like being able to ignore enemy spells ,traps, and anything requiring a Reflex save with impunity. No need to heal if no damage is taken. As for the faster casting time of a Sorcerer vs. Wizard, well I've never needed that either. ( Or I would have rolled up a Sorcerer 2 1/2 years ago instead of an Evasion Wizard with UMD and trap skills. )

Humperdink
04-06-2009, 09:05 PM
Anyone notice the duration of Dominate Monster?

Dominate acts like Charm, with additional Will saves every 3d6+12 seconds...

So the only spell left that allows monsters to follow you gives them a will save every 23 seconds on average. So much for playing an Enchanter anymore, commanding your minions. Enchantment is now dead.

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 09:07 PM
Anyone notice the duration of Dominate Monster?

Dominate acts like Charm, with additional Will saves every 3d6+12 seconds...

So the only spell left that allows monsters to follow you gives them a will save every 23 seconds on average. So much for playing an Enchanter anymore, commanding your minions. Enchantment is now dead.

I saw that, but if they only make their save on a 20 , it wont be too different I guess, just more costly in sp. It will take some getting used to for me, but I'll roll with the changes. No choice.... :)

Humperdink
04-06-2009, 09:15 PM
Pfft we're talking outsiders in their native plane in high level quests. It will take much lower then a 20 I'm guessing for them to make their will save versus Enchantment. Ever tried to successfully enchant things in the Subterrane consistently? Good Luck

Jadeare
04-06-2009, 09:31 PM
Ooze puppet works a treat.

sirgog
04-06-2009, 11:09 PM
To be honest, even though I'm a huge user of Suggestion & Symbol of Persuasion, IMO this is a change for the better game balance wise.

Suggestion was a 3rd level spell that was more powerful than the 7th level spell Finger of Death in most circumstances - both take a foe out of a fight, but Suggestion provided a meatshield for you and a minor source of DPS as well. (Plus Suggestion was generally easier to land on most foes due to low Will saves being common on mobs).

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 11:15 PM
To be honest, even though I'm a huge user of Suggestion & Symbol of Persuasion, IMO this is a change for the better game balance wise.

Suggestion was a 3rd level spell that was more powerful than the 7th level spell Finger of Death in most circumstances - both take a foe out of a fight, but Suggestion provided a meatshield for you and a minor source of DPS as well. (Plus Suggestion was generally easier to land on most foes due to low Will saves being common on mobs).

I'm with you on this, Suggestion works on several orange named, that seems kinda weird to me.

sirgog
04-06-2009, 11:27 PM
I'm with you on this, Suggestion works on several orange named, that seems kinda weird to me.

It works on all orange nameds due to its fixed duration (Charms having an indefinite & often very very VERY long duration is the reason I believe that charm doesn't work on them).

Orange nameds have very few immunities.

Newtons_Apple
04-06-2009, 11:30 PM
The reason for the change was so that there would be an advantage to casting Dominate spells, which give a stronger kind of control.

In D&D, Dominate will let you have the victim fight for you, but Charm will usually not do that; a Charmed creature thinks you're his friend, not his boss.
In DDO, Charm has been upgraded to cause victims to be combat slaves, which means that so far Dominate hasn't been any better.

In the future, Dominate will be the spell to get a slave to follow you around, while Charm will be to make it fight in one spot.


The point is that you come into a room with 10 trolls, and Charm one of them. All the other trolls attack him, giving your team an opening to kill them one at a time.


You come into a room with 5 Frost Giants and hit them all with one Mass Charm spell. Then you use the Dismiss Charm feat to release them one at a time to fight them.


Which ruins the Charm spells......

Actually he just listed an innovative way to use charm room by room - charm em all, release 1, giggle with mirth as it is decimated, then rinse and repeat! Welcome back my musical friend, too long have you been relegated to "hasting the portal."

Nevthial
04-06-2009, 11:32 PM
Actually he just listed an innovative way to use charm room by room - charm em all, release 1, giggle with mirth as it is decimated, then rinse and repeat! Welcome back my musical friend, too long have you been relegated to "hasting the portal."

I'm really hoping the Devs looked at the bigger picture and are doing whats best for grouping. I hope. It would be nice...

QuantumFX
04-06-2009, 11:33 PM
I think that if they're going to eliminate the pink hat then they should replace it with a red shirt.

Humperdink
04-06-2009, 11:49 PM
I think that if they're going to eliminate the pink hat then they should replace it with a red shirt.

That's is freakin' funny right there. Kudos.

-Most lower level spells are more powerful than higher level. How many people use 8th level spells especially with no equipment to apply damage amplification except in one special case from raid loot? This is no excuse to change the complete Enchantment mechanic of the entire game!

-Charming a room full and picking them off one at a time is not new or original in thought. Nor is it mana efficient by any stretch of the imagination.

-We've been give a token pittance in return. A single target spell where the victim gets a will save every 22 seconds. Pathetic. A more appropriate change would be to limit the number you can Mass enchant based on your character level, primary stat, etc. Hence a third level mage gets one little weak follower, a 20th level EPIC caster can enchant and command let's say something like up to 6 powerful monsters in one mass casting.

-I'm fine with changing it so orange named are not affected. That's an acceptable game balance change.

The bottom line is playing the role of a classic arcane enchanter (create and command an army of minions that follow you) is gone.

Uska
04-07-2009, 12:27 AM
as of today they are not fixed and i find it hard to beleive anything turbine says now

UMM fix is for mod 9 which hasnt happened yet so its not so hard to belive them:rolleyes:

Nevthial
04-09-2009, 05:30 PM
Charm is still working well as a distraction or to set up spell traps. Other than that, Dominate is the way to go. I tested it in the Vale and was disappointed that some charmed ogres would stand motionless once charmed and do nothing however.

bunsdavy
04-18-2009, 09:54 AM
Command undead.. thats definitely a "domination" of undead. So they SHOULD obey all commands you give them, follow being one of them.

Suggestion would be much the same though the duration is 1 minute max (with extend) and 30 seconds usually.